[HN Gopher] The Origins of the Wirecard Scandal
___________________________________________________________________
The Origins of the Wirecard Scandal
Author : BobbyVsTheDevil
Score : 107 points
Date : 2021-04-27 05:37 UTC (17 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (newrepublic.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (newrepublic.com)
| EdwardDiego wrote:
| What got me about German business, as a Kiwi working with
| Germans, was a few things:
|
| 1) How cosy everyone in a given sphere is with each other
|
| 2) The nearly inevitable strip-club and coke in relationship
| building
|
| 3) The prevalence of kick-backs in contracts, although obviously
| euphemistically renamed.
|
| 4) How Germans accepted corruption as part of life
|
| 5) How they were proud that their corruption still got things
| built, unlike, say, the Italians
|
| Now I don't really have much experience outside of these two
| countries, so maybe this is the norm around the world. But shit.
|
| My DE parent company turned up on Muddy Water's[1] short list
| because of interesting share assignments, (paying above average
| for acquisitions) and unusual interactions with related entities.
| And I'm really not surprised.
|
| And I really struggled to not use the word cosy repeatedly in
| this, because it was applicable to much of it, and really sums up
| Germany's informal corruption as I've experienced it.
|
| Not that I claim NZ is any better, but here slight corruption
| doesn't feel like an accepted norm.
|
| [1]: https://www.muddywatersresearch.com/
| Glawen wrote:
| I never experienced corruption in Germany, people have always
| been very honest. However I don't navigate in the business
| sphere.
|
| I did notice strange things which suggest corruption, like
| constantly rebuilding perfect roads, every time by the same
| companies but of course I got no proof.
| scanny wrote:
| I think NZ is far better off than most other nations, we
| consistently rank 1st or 2nd as the least corrupt country on
| earth [0] (I am also a kiwi living in Germany :) ). Also
| anecdotally I cannot think of a single corruption scandal on
| par with anything here in DE or even across the Tasman.
|
| 0. https://www.transparency.de/cpi/
| jahller wrote:
| Why is it always Austrians?
| hackeraccount wrote:
| There's a tradition that goes back to the 30's wherein they
| cause problems in Germany.
| MrEuribor wrote:
| I think the article touches on a broader problem with European
| approach to finance, innovation, and competition in the
| globalized economy (to be clear, I say that as a European). It is
| hard for anyone living here not to notice that the continent is
| slowly falling behind and becoming more provincial in many ways.
| This leads to some defensive and delusional attitudes, often
| presented on this forum ("we may underperform economically but
| that's okay because quality of life here is better and we don't
| have all the shootings and inequality" or "it is better to have
| stable low growth than excessive speculation-driven growth").
| This mentality is especially striking when applied to the field
| of finance - which is associated with greedy ruthless US-style
| capitalism. There is a certain pride in the fact that financial
| markets in Europe are fragmented, over-regulated and
| underdeveloped. Nobody seems to recognize that despite all their
| flaws US markets are much more transparent and less corrupt. I
| have participated in discussions where people debated Gamestop
| saga, concluding that thankfully in Europe it would not be
| possible because we "protect retail investors" here and don't
| allow payment for order flow. The fact that European retail
| investors get a terrible deal, with inflated costs to access the
| market, lack of choice, and mediocre returns, did not seem to
| bother anybody. Almost everyone I know prefers to invest in US
| stocks, through US brokers with local subsidiaries. The precious
| few recent attractive European companies that I know of all got
| listed in New York. Wirecard case really is symptomatic. To run a
| global innovative business in Europe you cannot cut corners and
| bend the rules Uber-style; EU regulations "protect" us from that
| kind of enterpreneur. The only way is for the business to be an
| outright fraud.
| puchatek wrote:
| I had rather Germany stay in the global small league the way it
| is than be seduced by perceived anglo-saxon economic success and
| turn into some crappy copy of the US. The US truly scares me.
| jacquesm wrote:
| A couple of observations:
|
| - this isn't the authoritative article on the origins of the
| wirecard scandal that the title would have you believe. It would
| be nice to read such an article but this isn't it.
|
| - BaFin, the German regulator has historically been the one to
| trust but failed to verify. This to a large extent because they
| didn't have the budget or the staff to do their work properly,
| traits it shares with many other regulators around the world.
|
| - Another problem is that regulators tend to have a two-way
| revolving door with the industry they are supposed to regulate.
| It is pretty rare to see a regulator that _really_ takes such an
| industry to task.
|
| - Finally, and more worrisome: Europe _and_ the United States
| have both stopped being hungry. Yes, SV gives the USA a headstart
| for now, but keep in mind that SV is a spin-off of the MIC, and
| that without that MIC SV would have not existed as a phenomenon.
| The 'silicon' in silicon valley doesn't point to servers or
| hardware but to a much more basic element: the transistor, which
| displaced the vacuum tube. Back in the vacuum tube days
| electronics factories were much more wide-spread across the globe
| than they are today, the tech was much simpler and as a
| consequence the entry level was a lot lower. Once a country could
| make glass making vacuum tubes was a relatively small step away.
|
| The distance between making glass and making modern chips is 50
| years of investment in technology, a time horizon only very few
| regimes operate at, and usually those happen to be the plan-
| economies.
|
| So for everybody else the doors are now firmly closed. Europe is
| on the backfoot, within another 50 years or so I expect the
| United States to be on the backfoot too.
|
| Scandals like Wirecard are less rooted in the cycles of
| ascendancy of the tech world (though as a 'darling' Wirecard got
| away with more than they should have been able to) than they are
| in the simple fact that regulators are not operating independent
| of the industries they regulate.
|
| Boeing 737 Max anybody?
| FabHK wrote:
| > - Another problem is that regulators tend to have a two-way
| revolving door with the industry they are supposed to regulate.
| It is pretty rare to see a regulator that really takes such an
| industry to task.
|
| Though the article specifically claims that this rarely happens
| in Germany, with the boundary between the political and
| commercial sphere being less porous than elsewhere.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Check out the current leadership of BaFin and other EU
| regulators and check their track record, and where they
| typically end up afterwards. The lower ranks hardly matter.
|
| If the EU wants to solve this they actually have a head start
| on other regions, they could investigate each others'
| industries. I'm sure the French would love to regulate the
| Germans and vice versa!
| pas wrote:
| So there's the EPPO (European Public Prosecutor's Office),
| but I have no idea if that will ever have the right
| structure to do this.
| Mashimo wrote:
| > When scandal happens, the country seems less interested in
| figuring out who exactly did what than in letting the old
| reflexes of collective guilt kick in.
|
| Ha. True. What a great read. Thanks for sharing.
|
| > A scandal like Wirecard is powered by the dream that you could
| have an Uber without slashing workers' protection--that one could
| hold on to what remains of the German social market economy while
| at the same time going all-in on laissez-faire capitalism.
|
| ;_; let us dream and stop holding up a mirror in front of us.
| pintxo wrote:
| Another aspect might be the often seen focus on the law, ignoring
| the policing aspect: "It's forbidden to do this by law, so we
| don't need to do X".
| durnygbur wrote:
| The German anti-English sentiment is sometimes right. They're not
| afraid to point out omnipresent Anglosphere oligopolies - in
| payments (Visa, Mastercard), in social networks (Facebook,
| LinkedIn), in surveillance (Google, Facebook), in mobile (Google,
| Apple). While the rest of the Europe entirely submits to these
| oligopolies on a promise of receiving "investment". Funny though
| how Germans turn blind eye on their own oligopolies dominating
| and devastating European markets.
|
| Part of the problem is that German economy is ruled by industrial
| and media moguls. For them internet is whether "stupid websites",
| a medium serving copyrights violations, or legal compliance issue
| (see "Impressum" hysteria). Either way an issue rather than
| opportunity. With their geriatric population the strategy is
| basically - increase public media fee, 50mbit copper internet in
| every household, internet for broadcasting public media content
| while throttling any alternatives.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| I have the feeling that separation of powers tends to be
| stronger in the US. But maybe it's false..
| michaelscott wrote:
| I don't know if it's intentional separation of powers. The
| American culture is very individualistic, especially compared
| to the German. This just naturally means that American
| companies tend to "go it alone" in relation to the public
| sector for longer than they would in Germany.
|
| Certainly when American companies get to the right size they
| seem to become much closer to the political bodies that
| matter to them and their interests, as is the case likely
| everywhere
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> The American culture is very individualistic, especially
| compared to the German._
|
| I wouldn't rush to this conclusion. US billionaires usually
| run many charity funds whereas German billionaires rarely
| do anything like that.
|
| Also, German businesses owners don't seem to mind
| exploiting people's health and the environment (VW
| emissions scandal) or foreign workers [1] if it makes them
| money, so I think the same issues that plague capitalism in
| the US (greed) affect Germany too.
|
| Otherwise, the wealth gap between rich and poor wouldn't be
| rising so steeply in Germany [2][3] if they wouldn't be so
| individualistic.
|
| [1]https://m.dw.com/en/germany-meat-industry-
| conditions/a-54033...
|
| [2]https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-
| news/inherit...
|
| [3]https://m.dw.com/en/study-shows-growing-wealth-
| inequality-in...
| luckylion wrote:
| > I think the same issues that plague capitalism in the
| US (greed) affect Germany too.
|
| Definitely. It's a cultural thing, Germany (along with
| most Western countries) seems to follow the US in that
| regard.
|
| The individualism <=> collectivism scale is well studied,
| and there's a significant gap between the US and Germany.
|
| http://clearlycultural.com/geert-hofstede-cultural-
| dimension...
| fh973 wrote:
| You can generalize that: German government doesn't mind
| exploiting people's health and the environment, and
| prioritizes industry interests. Two current examples: the
| ongoing ignorance about ground water pollution [1], and
| the Diesel air pollution affair, which is far from being
| over [2].
|
| [1] https://www.dw.com/en/eu-sues-germany-over-water-
| tainted-by-... [2] https://www.rhein-
| zeitung.de/deutschland-und-welt/wirtschaft... (no English
| source)
| luckylion wrote:
| > Funny though how Germans turn blind eye on their own
| oligopolies dominating and devastating European markets.
|
| Everybody wants sellers to compete when they're buying, nobody
| wants to compete when they're selling.
|
| > For them internet is whether "stupid websites", a medium
| serving copyrights violations, or legal compliance issue (see
| "Impressum" hysteria).
|
| The large corporations and media companies had issues with the
| laws around imprints? That wasn't my perception at all. Rather,
| it was average people who wrote blogs etc who didn't want to
| put their real name, home address and tax IDs onto their sites
| for various reasons, but the law was so vague that nobody was
| sure their site wasn't "similar to the press" or "with
| commercial interest". Larger companies didn't care at all --
| they were generally compliant way before that law was
| introduced.
| durnygbur wrote:
| > Larger companies didn't care at all -- they were generally
| compliant way before that law was introduced.
|
| If you write anything on the internet you're publishing
| content, ie. media might start consider you a competition,
| certainly after achieving certain visibility. Why not create
| an easy way to shot someone down or to suck someone into an
| expensive time consuming legal swamp?
| luckylion wrote:
| Oh, I misunderstood your comment, I believe. I took it to
| mean that the companies got into a craze about new
| requirements, not that they were welcoming the new
| requirements as it gave them some/more control over online
| publishing (which is how I understand your comment now,
| please correct me if I'm wrong).
|
| I generally agree in that case, they were probably happy
| for that moat.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| There are federal elections in September in Germany. CDU just
| fell behind the Green Party in recent polls and SPD (whose Olaf
| Scholz ultimatively was in charge of BaFin) is a shadow of it's
| former self anyway. I do not think the everything will turn for
| the better, but I am hopeful that some actions will be taken. The
| political style of Merkel - and Germany as a whole for that
| matter - of a steady hand and waiting for consensus to form to go
| with, will hopefully be ammended by some visionary ideas.
|
| I feel the German inferiority complex described in the article. I
| think it is partly built on a misunderstanding: Silicon Valley
| was not funded by smart engineers thinking in their garages. It
| was funded by massive military grants. The garages came later.
| Last time Germany gave out massive military grants it was sadly
| very able to compete technologically. Everyone knows, who worked
| on the rockets that ultimatively won the space race.
|
| German universities are indeed world-class. It's not like
| uneducated people can export this much. The university rankings
| do not take into account that research in Germany happens at
| Fraunhofer or Max Planck, which are door to door to their
| respective university and have shared staff. If all their papers
| would be taken into account, the rankings would change
| dramatically.
|
| Germany is capable and cold start investing massively. I think
| the article exactly gets it: We are just too comfortable. Acting
| like a big Switzerland might not be glorious but in the end I
| take a socially relatively cohesive country, where an illness or
| going to university will not bankrupt you, where your kids can
| travel alone in public transportation, where police shootings per
| year are single digits, where the air is very breathable and the
| tap water is drinkable over world leadership any time.
|
| We can always pump some billions into football or another sport
| once in a while and watch the nation win the world cup, if we
| really need to dominate something for no good reason, which is an
| obvious connection to national pride, the article missed out on.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| > Silicon Valley was not funded by smart engineers thinking in
| their garages. It was funded by massive military grants. The
| garages came later.
|
| Well, not exactly:
|
| - Stanford U. was the US West Coast US military communications
| lab
|
| - but Shockley (1956) and HP Labs (1966) started in a
| storefront/lot and garage respectively. The military was just
| one customer, and both recruited researchers from Bell Labs.
|
| > I take a socially relatively cohesive country ... over world
| leadership any time.
|
| US hegemony allows the rest of the countries in its sphere to
| live in peace, while only paying half or less of their fair
| share in defense spending. You're welcome.
|
| Another post that supports my suggestion to ban European IP
| addresses from HN - just pointless drivel from the Old World.
| You know exactly what Russia what do to your German family and
| friends without "US dominance."
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shockley_Semiconductor_Laborat...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP_Labs
| lnsru wrote:
| So many wishful thinking. I bet there will be no changes after
| election. Why should it be? Germany will continue slowly
| declining with whole Europe. This pandemic management was/is
| real shitshow.
|
| The universities are other funny thing. They have no future
| with heavily underpaid staff and work contracts for 6-12 month
| working contracts. Max Planck and Fraunhofer are sweatshops for
| industrial partners. They do the tasks for industry at 40%
| costs, again 1 year contracts and sad salary.
|
| I don't want to start about general technical level in Germany.
| I want to cry when I think about coming relocation and
| registering whole family in another city. Plus car. Plus
| another school. It's all filing tens of pages and using snail
| mail or showing up in person. Or using fax machine as a modern
| solution.
| Mashimo wrote:
| > This pandemic management was/is real shitshow.
|
| Why was the pandemic management a real shitshow?
| FrojoS wrote:
| Not ordering enough vaccines and in a timely manner because
| wanting "a European solution" was perhaps the biggest fuck
| up.
|
| Wasted billions for pennies and killed thousands of people.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| BioNTech (a German company) invents the vaccine known as
| Pfizer. German (and EU) administration then fails to roll
| it out.
|
| Also weekly meetings changing (symbolic) measures, making
| everyone tired of the whole show.
| Mashimo wrote:
| > German (and EU) administration then fails to roll it
| out
|
| Do you mean they have the vaccine but can't give it to
| people? I thought we did not secure enough of them.
|
| > Also weekly meetings changing (symbolic) measures,
|
| Yeah, that is not good.
|
| You call that "a real shit show"?
|
| Edit: Oh nevermind. You where not the person I asked.
| Sorry.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| > Do you mean they have the vaccine but can't give it to
| people? I thought we did not secure enough of them.
|
| All of the above. Finally they are just giving it to
| doctors and now numbers are finally ramping up. Leave us
| some drinks at the opening party, Germany will be a few
| months late.
| raverbashing wrote:
| There are over 100Mi doses of Pfizer/Biontech deployed in
| the EU as of today.
|
| Sure, you can question the delays (which given the time
| between application and approval wasn't too different
| from the FDA)
| lnsru wrote:
| Simple example. Quick test on Thursday 2 weeks ago before
| school. Whole class negative, cool! A call on Friday from
| school: we have 2 positive cases, please don't come next
| week. Why all the quick tests!? They bring nothing.
|
| Do you know how many vaccine was thrown away?
| https://www.sueddeutsche.de/gesundheit/impfstoff-
| coronavirus...
|
| Let's don't start with Bavarian ffp2 masks while the rest
| of Germany can live without them.
| FabHK wrote:
| Good question. At the beginning of the pandemic, the
| government response was excellent (with Angela Merkel, who
| has a doctorate in quantum chemistry, promoting fact-based
| policies).
|
| [Quick background: Germany has a political system not
| entirely unlike the US with a federal level and "Lander" =
| state level. Health (along with police, education, etc.) is
| delegated to the Lander.]
|
| Towards the end of 2020, two things happened:
|
| People developed "Coronamudigkeit" (being sick of the
| restrictions), and in the run-up to the federal election in
| Sept 2021 (with Merkel stepping down), several prime
| ministers of the Lander tried to gain a higher profile
| (with an eye on the Bundeskanzler election later) by
| opening up. So, squabbling and inconsistent policy ensued,
| with a massive third wave happening right now.
|
| Throw in corruption (several CDU politicians had to step
| down because of shady mask deals), the delayed vaccination
| drive, etc., and "shitshow" seems appropriate.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> People developed "Coronamudigkeit" (being sick of the
| restrictions)_
|
| People developed sickness of restrictions because the
| restrictions were not tight enough to completely stop the
| spread, but tight enough to become annoying when dragged
| along for so many months (a year?).
|
| So this half-assed restriction policy were we're kind of,
| sort of, locked down, but not really, got people annoyed.
|
| The problem is, even if you want to tighten the measures
| now to wipe out the virus, you can't, because people are
| already burned out from the previous half-assed measures
| trat dragged on for so long.
| detaro wrote:
| First wave went well (probably in good part to dumb luck,
| but also because stuff just got done and less arguing about
| it), this made people somewhat complacent, second and third
| wave has been a shitshow of not wanting to be unpopular by
| locking things down and thus ignoring predictions, do last-
| minute changes when it's too late, apologizing for getting
| it wrong just to immediately repeat the same pattern,
| keeping things in an unstable and unsustainable situation
| for the past few months with no long-term planning (which
| also means the options are worse, because options that
| would have required long-term preparing aren't available
| and the available ones are badly thought out). Picking of
| random "target points" without apparent consideration what
| those actually mean outside of being some number that was
| compromised on and thus is now the benchmark. Way too much
| political manouvering with politicians pushing for "a
| common approach", agreeing with everyone on one, loudly
| announcing it, going back to their state and doing
| something entirely different. This dragged-out state with
| constant (but in many ways meaningless for many peoples
| experience) changes just drags on everyone while at the
| same time doing a bad job at keeping covid at bay.
|
| EDIT: Random examples: lockdown laws that fail trivial
| legal challenges because they were made up last minute.
| Almost religious clinging to the belief that kids in school
| aren't a relevant factor (to the point of states
| suppressing evidence to the contrary) which lead to too
| little investment into teaching infrastructure and options,
| making each switch between kids in schools and not
| unnecessary last minute and painful to implement.
| Unnecessarily messy signup/notification processes for
| vaccinations (who would have thought one might need a plan
| to vaccinate people at some point...). Late adjustment of
| financial help schemes. Nonsensical and inefficient schemes
| to e.g. distribute masks.
| FabHK wrote:
| Oh come on, there is amazing progress in Germany on
| digitalisation and hi-tech. The government of Upper Frankonia
| is now switching from 4-digit fax numbers to 5-digit fax
| numbers!
|
| https://www.regierung.oberfranken.bayern.de/presse/pressemit.
| ..
|
| </s>
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Sigh. Satirical jokes don't work anymore, when reality is
| more ridiculous than anything you can imagine.
|
| (oh and fitting, their government website does not seem to
| use a valid certificate )
| Hello71 wrote:
| ssllabs is happy with it, seems like you are missing ISRG
| Root X1 and refuse to download intermediaries.
|
| https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=www.regier
| ung...
| allendoerfer wrote:
| > Germany will continue slowly declining with whole Europe.
|
| If what's currently happening to Germany (uninterrupted boom
| since > 10 years) is decline, then let there be more of it.
|
| It's great, that you are living in the moment, but I take a
| step back once in a while. The other side of the fence is
| probably not greener.
|
| Germany is by no means perfect. Administration is a shit-
| show. But stuff is indeed improving (very slowly).
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> If what's currently happening to Germany (uninterrupted
| boom since > 10 years) is decline, then let there be more
| of it._
|
| If by boom you mean the boom of big business profits that
| don't trickle down to the workers, boom of wealth
| inequality, asset prices, property prices and rents then
| yes, but that's nothing to be proud of.
|
| Average wages of workers in Germany have not kept up with
| this boom but cost of living has risen.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| Average real wages in the last ten years have steadily
| increased after being stagnant before. Inequality is
| lower in Germany than in China or the US.
|
| I am not argueing that Germany is some kind of utopia. I
| am just saying: Find a better place to live. It will not
| be one of the dominant countries. It will be Switzerland
| etc.
| FabHK wrote:
| Agreed that it is not too bad in Germany, but the trend
| is pointing in the wrong direction. It is unclear whether
| there are political parties that have a reasonable
| response to the current challenges - some are complacent
| about it, and some go a bit overboard (Die Linke
| advocates a wealth tax of 5% a year for wealth above EUR
| 1m).
| lnsru wrote:
| Real estate prices tripled or even quadrupled during last
| 10 years while salaries haven't changed a lot. The rents in
| the cities are not really affordable anymore. Look at the
| problems in Berlin when the city tried to control the
| rental prices and failed.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| Compare Berlin rents to any European capital. Man,
| reading all those replies, Germans do live in a bubble
| and do not know how privileged they are. Take a step
| back, look at London, realize how good you have it, just
| rent an apartment instead of buying one, put your money
| in the stock market and wait for the population to
| decline and the bubble to burst.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> Compare Berlin rents to any European capital._
|
| Just resorting to whataboutism at every step doesn't
| magically make rents in Germany cheaper more easy to
| obtain for those in Germany.
|
| The fact that Parisians or Londoners or Tokyans(is that
| even a word?) have expensive rents doesn't help me when I
| live in Germany since they're completely different
| markets and I only compete in my local market, not with
| those in Paris/London/Tokyo.
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| Dann zieh doch in 'nen Plattenbau 'ner
| Wohnungsbaugesellschaft im Stadtrandghetto und
| gentrifizier den.
|
| Heulsuse!
| allendoerfer wrote:
| HN readers learn a word that often helps to win arguments
| and then go on and try to use it everywhere.
|
| Whataboutism is to use a different issue to show that the
| first issue is not that big, even though the second issue
| does not actually take away from the first issue and the
| first issue is worth discussing on its own.
|
| What I am saying is: Rent in Germany is relatively
| inexpensive (even compared to income and especially
| compared to property prices). Because how do you
| determine if something is inexpensive? You compare it to
| something else. Comparing prices to determine if
| something is expensive is not whataboutism.
| durnygbur wrote:
| The difficult part in renting is compiling the
| documentation and to get accepted as a tenant. The
| dividend and capital gains taxes of 26.4% efficiently
| cool down unexperienced individual investors. The last 10
| years have basically invalidated the possibility of
| buying housing for any individual on employment contract.
| Before anything will pop within next 10 years, German
| boomers will be chocking the remaining population even
| with their last death throes (while the elites holding
| the industry will be only consolidating their influence).
| ie. "the market can remain irrational longer than you can
| remain solvent, young, and sane".
| ivanche wrote:
| It's true that the capital gains taxes are really high.
| But there are at least some exempts: 1) first 801EUR for
| an individual or 1602EUR for a couple are tax free (every
| year); 2) if you invest in ETFs that invest primarily in
| stocks first 30% of capital gains are tax free
| allendoerfer wrote:
| > 2) if you invest in ETFs that invest primarily in
| stocks first 30% of capital gains are tax free
|
| Citation needed.
|
| I would argue the point is actuallly the opposite:
| Capital gains taxes are actually lower than income taxes
| on your salary. Properties do have an unfair advantage,
| though, because they can be sold tax free after 10 years.
|
| We do need something like a 401k. But if you read the
| election manifestos of different parties for September,
| they are indeed in there.
| ivanche wrote:
| > Citation needed.
|
| I will try to provide a screenshot from
| Steuerbescheinigung that Scalable Capital sent me a few
| days ago.
|
| Also, if something like 401K (with matching, hehe) is
| really implemented one day in Germany, it will be a big
| step ahead. Right now people are constantly robbed with
| various corporate pension plans that just pour money into
| Allianz and other insurance companies for "only" 2% TER.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| "Administration is a shit-show."
|
| It is. But ... there are probably not many countries with
| better administration.
| spdionis wrote:
| If german administration is a shit-show then
| administration is a shit-show everywhere. There are
| always people who will say "the 'administration' should
| know better!!!".
|
| People have too high standards for leaders. They are also
| human.
| Thomasmack wrote:
| > Germany will continue slowly declining with whole Europe.
|
| I agree and this is really sad. Thinking of migrating because
| I plan to have a family and want them to grow up in the best
| environment. Which countries you guys think will be the best
| bet?
| amaccuish wrote:
| Oops, I just moved here and can't see me leaving. One
| person's rubbish is another person's treasure I guess :)
| celticninja wrote:
| Europe will be a safer option than most others. Everywhere
| else will be a backwards step in terms of safety and
| education of your children. The US might seem like a better
| option for now with higher wages, but with the increase in
| the gap between rich and poor, how sure are you that your
| children will be on the rich side of that gap?
|
| If you are a person of colour, even more reason to avoid
| the US. Not that Europe is perfect, but your chances of
| being shot by the police drop dramatically.
| mygoodaccount wrote:
| The highroading by Europeans regarding race never ceases
| to amaze me. I've never experienced more overt racism
| than during my limited time in Europe (specifically
| Germany, Netherlands, and Denmark).
|
| The real difference here is American issues are
| broadcasted more than European ones are.
| celticninja wrote:
| real difference here is American issues are more often
| fatal
| lnsru wrote:
| Switzerland, maybe Norway, maybe Iceland. Singapore? New
| Zealand or Australia? You must decide. Nordic countries are
| too cold for me. Swiss salaries for engineers weren't that
| different from my German salary. The others too far. I
| settled down between Munich and Alps. I love nature and
| still can reach Munich in 40 minutes if needed.
| hiq wrote:
| > Swiss salaries for engineers weren't that different
| from my German salary.
|
| Don't you (and your company) pay way more taxes in
| Germany than in Switzerland?
|
| I've never applied to Munich positions but everything
| I've read point to a significant gap between Zurich and
| Munich in software engineering, even before taxes. But
| maybe that's only valid for software engineering and not
| so relevant for other engineering fields?
| lnsru wrote:
| I am an electrical engineer. My offers in Switzerland
| were ~120k CHF. I didn't look at Zurich because of the
| crazy rental prices. My C# colleague got 160k CHF
| proposal in Zurich , that sounds okayish. But he wasn't
| convinced seeing kindergarten cost of 3000 CHF monthly.
| hiq wrote:
| I admit I don't know how you end up when you factor in
| the price of kindergarten, it's significant indeed.
|
| > I didn't look at Zurich because of the crazy rental
| prices.
|
| That's also where you have the highest salaries though...
| With the same reasoning nobody would work in the SV. And
| as soon as you start looking outside of the city center
| you quickly find cheaper accommodation.
|
| But I think the main difference is really the taxes.
| Mandatum wrote:
| New Zealand and Australia aren't good choices. Rich and
| poor gap is growing faster than ever, legislation is
| regressing, housing and living costs are going up - wages
| are stagnating.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| What you just said literally applies to every
| European(world?) country.
|
| There is no single country here where wages have
| increased faster than real-estate/cost of living and
| where the rich aren't getting richer while everyone else
| is stagnating at best.
|
| It's a side effect of globalization and our current
| version of capitalism supported by (intentional) poorly
| designed economic policies that enable this wealth gap to
| grow ever larger.
| Mandatum wrote:
| How do we fix it?
| rsynnott wrote:
| I know a few people who've emigrated to Germany (from
| Ireland) precisely because it's good for kids (in
| particular, it has a good childcare situation AIUI; despite
| generally lower tech sector wages than Ireland people doing
| this can afford to have more kids due to subsidised
| childcare and cheaper housing).
|
| I'm inclined to agree with the opinion upthread that
| Germany is maybe a bit overly negative about itself. :)
| Glawen wrote:
| I disagree, Overall I find that Germany really strikes a
| good balance. Nice social security net, nice salaries, very
| low criminality, free school and universities, nice public
| transport. What else do you need to have a family? Real
| estate is indeed a bit on the expensive side, but it is the
| same situation everywhere else.
|
| Yes you feel a decline because of the aging population and
| low business growth. I agree that a developing country will
| be more vibrant and you will feel more alive, but you will
| have to deal with a shit tons of other issues that are non
| existant in Germany.
| Thomasmack wrote:
| I agree with you that these points are currently good.
| But my question is whether it will look the same in 20
| years' time. At the moment, I think that Germany lacks
| vision and is trying to achieve improvements through bans
| rather than concrete measures. In the countryside, public
| transport is still very poorly developed, but on the
| other hand, services like Uber or other forms of shared
| taxis are banned or given little support. Don't get me
| wrong: I am happy with my situation in the last few
| years, but I fear that future generations will no longer
| have such a situation due to a lack of vision and wrong
| measures.
| dna_polymerase wrote:
| > German universities are indeed world-class. It's not like
| uneducated people can export this much.
|
| We export modern versions of the same motors we did for
| decades. Took one south african immigrant to overthrow our car
| companies plans for years.
|
| > The university rankings do not take into account that
| research in Germany happens at Fraunhofer or Max Planck, which
| are door to door to their respective university and have shared
| staff. If all their papers would be taken into account, the
| rankings would change dramatically.
|
| Quality over quantity. The bullshit those institutes publish
| regularly is laughable at best.
|
| The country you is describe doesn't exist anymore. Germany
| failed to invest in education, now that there is a pandemic it
| gets crystal clear: we slept through 30 years of innovation and
| progress and looking at the current talking points in Berlin I
| am afraid we are still asleep at the wheel.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| I think you are massively overestimating the rest of the
| world. The perfectionism shown in your comment is exactly why
| the world (correctly or incorrectly) trusts German products.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> I take a socially relatively cohesive country, where an
| illness or going to university will not bankrupt you, where
| your kids can travel alone in public transportation, where
| police shootings per year are single digits, where the air is
| very breathable and the tap water is drinkable over world
| leadership any time_
|
| You're obviously entitled to your oppinion, but can we please
| stop pushing this cherry picked cliche narrative of _" US bad
| because healthcare, shootings and tap water."_? That's like
| saying Europe suffers from mass terrorist attacks and sexual
| assaults on young women.
|
| _> We can always pump some billions into football or another
| sport once in a while and watch the nation win the world cup,
| if we really need to dominate something for no good reason_
|
| Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages and
| stricter enforcement of regulations so that foreign workers
| won't have to get exploited by unscrupulous German
| businesses?[1] That would be for an actual good reason IMHO.
|
| [1]https://www.dw.com/en/germany-meat-industry-
| conditions/a-540...
| idownvoted wrote:
| Unwillingly the grandparent (allendoerfer) proves the
| Author's (Adrian Daub @TNR) point by resorting to
| whataboutism about America's shortcomings.
|
| What has the US to do at all with this specific failure of
| Germany? And how is such whataboutism rhethoricaly honest, if
| the those american shortcomings are usually informed by other
| Germans?
| allendoerfer wrote:
| > Fine, but can we please stop pushing this cherry picked
| cliche narrative of "US bad because healthcare, shootings and
| tap water."?
|
| Well those are the reasons, why I would not want to live
| there, even though I recognize it's economical superiority.
| Actually mostly the freedom of children. The other things you
| can solve with money. But your kids will have way more
| freedom in Germany and there is nothing money can do about it
| in the US.
| pas wrote:
| > Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages
|
| Because there's not consensus about this as OP mentioned.
|
| And it's not hard to see that this is the case. AfD is making
| sure of this.
|
| Is the consensus about ignoring AfD and neonazis? Sometimes.
| :|
| volta83 wrote:
| > Fine, but can we please stop pushing this cherry picked
| cliche narrative of "US bad because healthcare, shootings and
| tap water."?
|
| Are you saying those aren't issues?
|
| Because I've lived in the US, and know many Europeans that
| have lived there or traveled there on holidays, and pretty
| much all of them agree that:
|
| - the first time in their lives they were afraid of getting
| ill was when they started living in the US
|
| - they were all astonished at the amount of homeless people
| living in tents in the downtowns of all major cities (here if
| a major city has like ~10 people sleeping outside in winter,
| that's bad, but the US is just shockingly bad)
|
| - the first time in their lives they were afraid of getting
| killed was in the US (e.g. interacting with the cops, walking
| through some neighborhoods) because people were carelessly
| carrying guns outside (there are guns in Europe, some
| countries like Switzerland have a ton of guns, but the way
| people manage guns in public, and that includes police, is
| radically different)
|
| - they were all astonished and the amount of fat people, and
| how fat they were. What people consider "fat" in Europe would
| probably be "normal" or maybe even "thin" in the US. You
| don't find in Europe people that are so fat that don't fit
| through the door of a bus.
|
| These are not narratives, these are facts that every European
| that lives or has lived in the US will happily tell you
| about.
|
| The US style of living is great if you have money, but
| Europeans measure their style of living by how the poorest
| people in their country live, not the richest people.
|
| By those measures, the US is an outrageous place for pretty
| much all European standards.
|
| > That's like saying Europe suffers from mass terrorist
| attacks and sexual assaults on young women.
|
| Do you think that's a made up narrative? Because everyone I
| know in Europe agrees that this is true, that these are
| horrible issues to have, and that these issues need fixing.
|
| Your argument that "the US has no issues because Europe has
| issues" is typically known as "whataboutism".
|
| Don't be a "whataboutist". It doesn't help fix neither
| Europe's nor USA's issues.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> Your argument that "the US has no issues because Europe
| has issues" is typically known as "whataboutism"._
|
| Sorry, but wasn't grandparent's (u/allendoerfer) original
| post the one that started the whataboutism? I was just
| contradicting him with a mirrored whataboutism to prove why
| his way of thinking is wrong? Why are you only cherry
| picking mine?
|
| The topic was regarding one of Germany's failure, and
| Grandparent (u/allendoerfer) posted something along the
| lines of "at least in Germany we have have breathable air
| and drinkable water unlike Americans who get shot instead".
|
| What does that have to do with the Wirecard situation and
| how is that anything else but severe offtopic whataboutism?
|
| _> Europeans measure their style of living by how the
| poorest people in their country live, not the richest
| people._
|
| No they don't, otherwise, the wealth-gap between rich and
| poor wouldn't be at an all-time high in Germany/Europe
| [1][2].
|
| [1]https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-
| news/inherit...
|
| [2]https://www.dw.com/en/study-shows-growing-wealth-
| inequality-...
| volta83 wrote:
| > Sorry, but wasn't grandparent's original post the one
| that started the whataboutism? I was just contradicting
| him with a mirrored whataboutism to prove why his way of
| thinking is wrong? Why are you only cherry picking mine?
|
| The OP is making a trade-offs. They are arguing that they
| prefer the value proposition of living in Europe than
| that of living in the US. They don't seem to weight the
| downs of Europe or the pro's of the US much, so they are
| not mentioning them, which is IMO fair.
|
| We can argue about these pros and cons, whether they
| missed some, whether we weight them differently, etc.
|
| What I don't think is very helpful is just a straight
| "whataboutism" answer.
|
| You, me, and the OP are all different. What's a good
| value proposition for the OP might be bad for you and me.
| That's ok. It does not make the OP "wrong".
| allendoerfer wrote:
| I wasn't even (only) refering to the US. I was trying to
| bring accross, that it's quite nice to live in Germany
| and that it does not need to be dominant or proud of
| anything as a nation. I was trying to list benefits
| Germans take as a given, but are actually not available
| everywhere in the world (which has almost 200 countries
| btw, not only US + Germany). As far as I know, US also
| has breathable air and is somewhat save in most places.
| It's just that the unsafest place in Germany is probably
| still safer than almost everywhere else in the world. The
| basics are okay in Germany and they matter, even if you
| don't think about them day to day. If you want more, go
| on and build it, nobody forbids you to do so. Society
| just provides a nice baseline and even tries to catch
| you, in case you fall.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Europe's "mass terrorist attacks" are so much less frequent
| than US mass shootings that they would barely register.
|
| The sexual assault issue seems to have been a couple of big
| nasty incidents, which were heavily spun by media
| personalities whose main line of business was talking up
| the threat of Islam. How big a problem this really is is
| hard to tell, especially since nightlife has been cancelled
| for fourteen months.
| luckylion wrote:
| > The sexual assault issue seems to have been a couple of
| big nasty incidents, which were heavily spun by media
| personalities whose main line of business was talking up
| the threat of Islam.
|
| Sorry, but that's nonsense. In Rotherham or Cologne, the
| opposite was true: the media was actively working on
| covering it up, not "heavily spinning it" to talk up some
| threat.
| jasonvorhe wrote:
| Citation needed.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| https://meedia.de/2016/01/06/koeln-und-die-verzoegerte-
| ueber...
|
| He is actually right. They reported it 4 days late.
| volta83 wrote:
| Just because they happen less frequently (which I don't
| know if this is the case) does not mean that they are not
| an issue.
|
| I don't know how the situation is in the US about these
| things, but if these problems do not exist there at all,
| its normal for Americans coming here and seeing it happen
| "occasionally" to freak out about it.
| dmayle wrote:
| The GP is not saying they aren't issues, just that they
| don't add much value to the conversation. It's especially
| clear in how it triggered your response... and in how
| you've mostly overlooked those same problems in Europe
| (with the minor nod on violence). I'm an American and
| European (yes, two passports) who has lived in three
| different major cities in the US, two in Europe in separate
| countries, and I've traveled extensively in both areas. Let
| me offer some counterpoints:
|
| On healthcare, I've had to sit for 2-3 hours in an
| emergency room in London with my throat mostly closed
| struggling to breath because I hadn't turned blue yet (no
| kidding), which put me behind the people with stab wounds.
| That's a normal ordering of priority when there aren't any
| doctors available, but it was mostly because I was on a
| six-month waiting list to see an allergy specialist and
| hadn't yet been diagnosed. At least in the US, your only
| fear about getting sick is because you're worried about the
| cost. I had a xenophobic doctor (said I was just coming to
| the UK for the healthcare, hah, even though I was working
| and paying taxes) prescribe me medication I was allergic to
| despite saying over the course of several visits that I
| was. Luckily I looked up the medication before taking it.
|
| As to homeless people, sure, there may be less in the
| cities (though still there), but in exchange you have
| shanty towns and cities setup on the outskirts like with
| Canada Real outside of Madrid, or Christiania in
| Copenhagen. I've seen smaller ones in France (Nice and
| Paris), though at least one of them was removed, and know
| of short-lived ones (on the order of months and years) in
| London. On both sides of the pond you have people trying to
| make things better, like Utah's experiments or those of
| Helsinki.
|
| As to violence, Europe is a dangerous place. If the people
| you've spoken to were afraid for the first time in their
| lives, that's mostly because people grow accustomed to
| their own brands of violence. I was about an hour away from
| being blown to bits in the 2004 Madrid bombings, I was
| lucky enough to have decided not to bring my family to the
| Promenade des Anglais in Nice the day the terrorist decided
| to drive his truck through the crowds, and I've experienced
| the terror that is walking through the streets of London at
| night during an uptick in knifings (never attacked myself,
| though a colleague was and escaped).
|
| We can talk about the abduction of children like Madeleine
| McCann, or the acid attacks on people like Katie Piper. We
| can talk about the shootings in Northern Ireland, or the
| annexation of Crimea, but instead you should just look at
| the Wikipedia page on European terrorism, even though it's
| only one type of the violence you can encounter.
|
| As to obesity in Europe: Yes, the USA is on top, though
| there are variations by city (and people trying to fix it),
| but I have seen people too fat to board a bus (and no, not
| Americans) in both England and France, at the least. Don't
| believe me? Look for pictures of Virginie Grossat, French
| (!) model size 54 (though I've never seen her in public,
| just ordinary people).
|
| But what about your claim that Europeans measure their
| style of living by how the poorest people in their country
| live? What does that say when you look how the Syrian
| refugees were treated in Europe? Maybe they're discounted
| because they weren't citizens? Well then, how about how the
| Polish are treated in the UK and Ireland, or ex-colonial
| immigrants in France? What about eastern Europeans in
| general, or the Romani people?
|
| None of this is meant to say that America is just great, or
| Europe just sucks (I happen to be very fond of both). Why
| do you think so many people emigrate to the US? What the
| grandparent was trying to say is that when creating this
| caricatured version of the US (or any place that happens to
| be "other"), then you end up engaging in the very thing
| you're decrying, "whataboutism", and you actually blind
| yourself to the reality.
| tut-urut-utut wrote:
| > Why not pump some billions in local unskilled wages and
| stricter enforcement of regulations so that foreign workers
| won't have to get exploited by unscrupulous German
| businesses?[1] That would be for an actual good reason IMHO.
|
| Modern German economy is practically built on exploitation of
| foreign workers. First there was a slave labour during the
| WW2, then the exploitation of foreign workers during the
| "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things didn't
| change much.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| > then the exploitation of foreign workers during the
| "economic wonder" time after the war. Until now things
| didn't change much.
|
| I am not argueing that there is not abuse. But to force
| this narrative, you have to be already behind the "border
| wall" and therefor rich enough to be either nationalist
| ("no immigration!") or very naive ("just give them
| money!"). Either way in my mind you are putting yourself
| above the poor little people, who are in such misery. You
| do not think they are trying to do what's best for them?
| They are responsible for their own fortune and many of
| their children actually make it.
|
| Look at what is happening to Poland (one of the sources of
| immigration). Germany actively sends money there (through
| the EU), people working in Germany are effectively
| extracting money from Germany to Poland and the economy is
| growing like crazy (for European standards). Everyone
| benefits.
| tut-urut-utut wrote:
| > Either way in my mind you are putting yourself above
| the poor little people, who are in such misery. You do
| not think they are trying to do what's best for them?
| They are responsible for their own fortune and many of
| their children actually make it.
|
| I don't understand that logic. I am not putting myself
| above anyone, just stating a fact. And the fact is that a
| was majority of immigrants are indeed doing their best
| and trying to make it, but they have neither the same
| starting point nor the same chance like locals. They had
| it harder at every step, in school someone called Mahmet
| get on overage 1/2 lower note in German than Max, given
| the same performance immigrant children are less likely
| to get recommendation for Gymnasium. Someon with foreign
| name will have more issues searching for an apartment to
| rent, get less invitations for a job interview, and even
| be paid less for the same job, where we will hit the
| glass ceiling and not be promoted above a certain level.
|
| Don't get me wrong, this is not specific to Germany, and
| this is not a simple issue, but let's not pretend that it
| doesn't exist. Yes, many people make it, but not because
| Germany is so egalitarian society, but despite all those
| issues.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| > I don't understand that logic.
|
| In your first reply you talked about exploitation of
| immigrants by the economy. Now you are talking about
| racism throughout society. Those are two connected but
| different topics. I am argueing only against the first
| (economic growth only through abusing immigrants). My
| point was basically: People are not helpless, they are
| trying to advance on their own. Since nobody forced them
| to come, I am just assuming that they are not stupid, but
| actually get something out of it. So a liberal believe in
| human ability.
|
| I agree with the point you raised in your next reply.
| People should be treated equally. But I do not think,
| that this does support your argument. People not being
| able to advance even hurts the economy. I do not think
| you gave an example of immigrants being exploited for the
| sake of economic growth. I think everyone profitted (I
| gave Poland as an example in a sister comment).
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> people working in Germany are effectively extracting
| money from Germany to Poland_
|
| WTF?! How are Poles working in Germany effectively
| extracting money from Germany?
|
| They pay income taxes in Germany like everyone else. They
| are then free to do with their NET income what they
| please.
|
| There is no obligation to spend your after-tax income in
| the same country.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| People living in Poland (for the most part), but working
| in Germany ARE moving money to Poland. I am not angry
| about this. The same happens at the Swiss border with
| Germans. Everyone benefits, living conditions equalize,
| trade increases, everyone gets richer.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> People living in Poland ... but working in Germany _
|
| People living in Poland and working in Germany are either
| commuters or remote workers, not immigrants like you
| mentioned in your post above to which I replied: _[
| "Poland (one of the sources of immigration)"]_.
|
| And they're not extracting money from Germany, they are
| earning it fairly and legally.
| 271828182846 wrote:
| As a German, I have to say, you're very well summarizing the
| current state of affairs and my own impressions. Very realistic
| and matter of fact - very German ;)
|
| The US is not a role model for Germany by any standards. But of
| course it can very well serve as a source of inspiration just
| like many other cultures and countries. Sadly, precisely this
| is a weakness of current policitcal elite.
|
| It's painful how deliberately they are ignoring advances in
| drug legislation f.x.. We have many innovative projects just
| around the corner (Portugal, Switzerland, Netherlands to name
| some). Instead policitcal affairs are driven by dogmatism and
| ignorance. And that's precisely the reason for many issues
| regarding digitalization as well.
| idownvoted wrote:
| As a German, I have to say he's very well proving the
| Article's point by resorting to whataboutism.
|
| Nobody asked about country X but when criticized we answer
| with the shortcomings of country X.
|
| > _German universities are indeed world-class._
|
| > _socially relatively cohesive country_
|
| I disagree with the world-classiness. I have rarely
| encountered less ambitious institutions.
|
| But its indicative to me that we claim a wonderful education
| system in lieu with social cohesiveness, yet it is our very
| education system which makes us one of the least socially
| mobile industrial nations on earth.
| idownvoted wrote:
| > _CDU just fell behind the Green Party_
|
| Obviously people are confused why to vote "conservative" if
| Merkel has more support from the Green base than her from her
| own party. [1]
|
| > _German universities are indeed world-class._
|
| I have never seen less ambitous places than the universities of
| my home country. This includes most of the instructors. Actual
| science is a different thing. But most of the stuff German
| universities deal with is supplying the academic titles that
| more than 50% of German school graduates demand (that's what
| the Abitur is for).
|
| > _I think it is quite the opposite and the article exactly
| gets it: We are just too comfortable._
|
| I think the author's depiction is pretty accurate. This
| _comfortability_ you write about is reflected in our
| universities.
|
| People here who mostly talk about _social cohesiveness_ at the
| same time demand academic titles for free (payed for by the
| rest of society) while keeping the perks of better pay than
| your peers. They despise the american system, but while
| Americans are envying our vocational education system, the
| outspoken fans of cohesiveness would never consider the low
| status of being an Azubi.
|
| [1]
| https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/875530/umfrag...
| idownvoted wrote:
| Actually pretty accurate.
|
| > _Karl Theodor zu Guttenberg_
|
| There are many more such impostors, that fake their international
| standing to cater to the local audience: Our Covid-Expert
| Lauterbach, presenting himself as an Medical Professor from
| Harvard, while all he achieved there was publishing anopinion
| piece, which somehow got him tenured here, although said piece
| was kept secret for over a decade.
|
| > _The spheres [of politics and business] are actually
| surprisingly separate_
|
| Another thing us Germans routinely pride ourselves while
| simoutlaniously lambasting the US with: Our politicians just
| can't buy their campaigns off inherited/donated wealth. The
| downside to this: German politicians are usually unemployable
| individuals, because you cannot rise inside your party's ranks,
| if you have a proper job.
|
| They sport degrees in political science or law, with the latter
| one only used for law making not helping actual clients. Thus our
| leadership is prone for lobbying.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| Germany has their share of scandals.. Volkswagen, Deutsche Bank,
| Sparkasse, other banks.. Wirecard.. but politicians of course had
| no idea.. afterwards they are all shocked and surprised.. sigh.
|
| Especially Wirecard.. is such a failure on so many levels. Lead
| me to the conclusion: 90% of people half ass everything. It's
| like "The Wire" all the way. I bet you even Google, Apple and
| Facebook half ass stuff.. it's just a facade of elitism at those
| places.. Places like EY. Being a consultant, I've worked at
| several such places.. it's 100% true. (but to be fair they also
| had their share of brillant people)
|
| So many people are pretending their way throughout their whole
| careers. While basically being incompetent.. or not giving a
| damn.. sigh.
| signal11 wrote:
| I had heard about the Wirecard scandal, but didn't know the
| details. Having read the article now, I do wonder how Ernst &
| Young signed off on Wirecard's accounts.
| wereHamster wrote:
| Money has been exchanged for services rendered.
| TGImemegen wrote:
| Of course a lot of people half-ass stuff at FAANGs, they're
| only human (plus there's been enough scandals coming out of
| those places that it's no secret any more).
| [deleted]
| Glawen wrote:
| don't forget the big infrastructure project like BER which
| entertained me a lot.
|
| A story I like particularly is the Phantom of Heilbronn
| (related to another big scandal: the NSU) which I think explain
| what is happening: Germans have a great confidence in them and
| other germans. They are very suspicious when something comes
| from outside Germany / Austria (like France, Italy, or UK), but
| if it is german it must be good and seriously done!
|
| Truth is, Germany also has a share of slackers and fraudsters
| doing half assed stuff, but they admit their failures and sins
| only when it has become overwhelming, leading to crazy
| scandals. I still remember my colleagues who were proud of VW
| when the dieselgate came out. They were completely shocked. VW
| did this! They were expecting this from the sleazy french and
| italian, but not from their own beloved german company.
| raverbashing wrote:
| I'd argue that Germans don't do it half-assed, but they do
| worry about the irrelevant details, over-complicate things
| and try to shift responsibility as much as possible.
|
| BER is a great example of course.
| Glawen wrote:
| It's true that they tend to miss the big picture, but their
| attention to details is their strength. In my line of work
| we take german stuff because they took care of the annoying
| little details that competitors just ignored.
|
| On the other side when they finally accept to take
| responsibility over something, you can count on them to do
| the job! Unfortunately you already lost months negotiating
| it, you would have been better off doing it yourself.
| Haga wrote:
| The origin is a stagnant culture desperate to emulate the success
| of the valley, but unable to copy the culture that created said
| success, opening doors wide for con men.
| stewbrew wrote:
| Well, I don't think this article does a good job at explaining
| the scandal. It seems to me the author had a thesis and is mostly
| occupied with explaining that. What makes wirecard interesting
| are all these connections with politicians, oligarchs, secret
| services etc. Some day in the not so distant future, somebody
| will make a tv series out of this.
| FabHK wrote:
| I agree that there are more salacious details that the author
| didn't really touch on (particularly concerning Marsalek), but
| I think the author's embedding of the scandal in the political
| and economic fabric of post-war Germany was quite well done.
|
| (Oh, and I do hope there'll be a TV series!)
| ajcp wrote:
| > I don't think this article does a good job at explaining the
| scandal.
|
| I think that's because of their use of "origin". Both the title
| here and that of the article ("The Weird, Extremely German
| Origins of the Wirecard Scandal") can be taken two ways:
|
| 1. _How the Wirecard scandal transpired_
|
| I think this is what you took it to mean. Where "origin" means
| the beginnings of the scandal itself. Much like saying "the
| origins of my success" when talking about my business career.
|
| 2. _The environment that led to the Wirecard scandal being
| possible_
|
| I believe this is what the author actually sets out to do. In
| this the article didn't really look at the scandal itself, but
| rather the atmosphere -or place and time- from which Wirecard
| could have come happened in. This would be like saying "my
| origins" when describing that my family came from Wales.
| [deleted]
| andi999 wrote:
| The article seems a bit weak on the origins of the wirecard
| scandal (and rambles more about the countries psychology)
| Mashimo wrote:
| Because it's not an article about the wirecard scandal. It just
| uses it as one large example of scandals in Germany and why
| they happens on a social level.
|
| Here is an timeline overview of wirecard:
| https://www.ft.com/content/284fb1ad-ddc0-45df-a075-0709b3686...
| ft probably has more in depth articles. If you want a more
| "entertaining" kind of video you can watch "ZDF Magazin Royale"
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g1jk_49r2U (Similar to the
| style of Last Week Tonight") It has English subtitles.
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