[HN Gopher] E-Scooters roll into New York
___________________________________________________________________
E-Scooters roll into New York
Author : kwindla
Score : 30 points
Date : 2021-04-24 15:16 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.newyorker.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.newyorker.com)
| IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
| Archived version of the article for those paywalled
|
| https://archive.is/pSC7V
| void_mint wrote:
| "Loved"
|
| I hate the scooters. I do not live in SV. People ride them like
| jackasses and cause problems for both drivers and pedestrians.
| closeparen wrote:
| I was going to make a snarky comment about finally legalizing
| electric bikes before messing with scooters, but I see that this
| happened last year.
|
| https://dmv.ny.gov/registration/electric-scooters-and-bicycl...
| decafninja wrote:
| The main problem I've experienced with bike shares (NYC Citibike)
| is that often enough, there are no bikes when you need them, and
| the docks are full when you need to dock them. This situation
| isn't frequent, but still common enough to be annoying.
|
| The biggest benefit of e-scooters (and e-skateboards for that
| matter) is that you can fold them and take them into buildings.
| You can't do that with a bicycle - ok you can with a folding
| bike, but if you need to lug them for more than a few minutes
| they're quite heavy and cumbersome.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| Chicago's bikeshare has an app that shows how many bikes/spaces
| are available at each dock. There are docks every couple
| blocks, so you can easily plan the ride.
| poopypoopington wrote:
| New York's does too
| beowulfey wrote:
| I was in Southern California and lived through the boom and bust
| of E-scooters. Personally, I am a huge fan, but there is a long
| list of pros and cons worth considering.
|
| Pros:
|
| * Fast to start up
|
| * Cheaper than uber
|
| * Doesn't depend on stations, so way more convenient
|
| * No worry about keeping an eye on your scooter when you arrive;
| they were abundant enough that if yours gets taken you can grab
| another
|
| * Genuinely super fun
|
| Cons:
|
| * Ugly; an eyesore
|
| * Often in the way-- a nightmare for accessibility
|
| * So many companies meant you needed 5 different apps
|
| * Vandalized/battery theft often an issue
|
| * Not good for carrying goods
|
| * Kinda dangerous, but then ones that topped out at 12 mph were
| less worth it
|
| * Creeping up in price towards the end to help profitability,
| which made them also less worth it
|
| The overall attitude was pretty split, but most of the people I
| know who disliked them had never ridden them. They really were
| INCREDIBLE for convenience. If your trip was 0.5-2 miles, they
| were amazing. I used them for running to shops, cafes, meeting at
| restaurants, etc.
|
| I think there is a right way to do it, and that way has to
| include the convenience of leaving them near your destination.
| Bike shares that use stations are simply too annoying (if you
| haven't got the map of stations memorized) to get the general
| public to catch on. However, they also have to be managed way
| better than they were at first.
|
| Scooters were getting all types of people out of their cars, and
| they were good at it! Personally I really want the concept to
| stick around.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I can't speak for electric scooters, but bike sharing is one of
| the best inventions I have ever experienced, and it breaks my
| heart when people complain about it being ugly, or an eyesore,
| or dangerous. As you say, often these are either people who
| never used it, or they are people who already have access to
| alternative transport that they feel is somehow superior. It's
| such a self-centered attitude.
|
| Bike sharing democratizes the city, being cheap enough that
| even the poorest people can achieve transport independence. It
| should be a public service. The freedom that comes with being
| able to affordably pick up transport anywhere, and go anywhere,
| it's unparalleled in an urban context. All the dreams of self-
| driving cars, and in particular self-driving taxis, we already
| had that future and it was dockless bike share!
|
| I agree with you that there are still issues of transporting
| large objects, and difficulty catering to people with physical
| disabilities, but let's not have perfect be the enemy of good.
| [deleted]
| hn8788 wrote:
| You don't have to use bike/scooter sharing to see that it's
| an eyesore, or that people frequently drive at unsafe speeds
| down sidewalks. That's no more self-centered than thinking
| that you should be able to drive a scooter down the middle of
| a sidewalk meant for foot traffic, then leave it sitting
| wherever you want so other people have to deal with it.
| Swenrekcah wrote:
| I love the scooters but I completely agree that they should
| never be ridden on sidewalks except as a short connection
| between other lanes.
|
| They belong on the road (<=30mph) and cycling
| infrastructure.
|
| Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one
| parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and the
| problem is solved.
| wott wrote:
| > Regarding the eyesore and clutter, just designate one
| parking space every 500m or so to be scooter space and
| the problem is solved.
|
| Not quite, when people say they use them for 0.5 mile
| rides.
| ghaff wrote:
| I must say I don't understand that. That's about a 15
| minute walk. Even a mile doesn't seem like something a
| healthy person (which a person riding a scooter
| presumably is) really needs a transportation aid for.
| michael1999 wrote:
| Think about extending the range you can explore over
| lunch.
| colinmhayes wrote:
| People are incredibly lazy
| notatoad wrote:
| The only real downside to scooters is that our cities are
| completely designed around cars. Nobody complains about cars
| being in the way, messy, ugly, unsafe, or causing accessibility
| problems, but it's even more true of cars than it is of
| scooters.
|
| The quicker we can get our cities redesigned to meet the needs
| of all the people who need to get around, rather than just car
| drivers, the better. The problems with scooters are the same
| problems bikes or skateboards have, but just more visible
| because so many people use the scooters. The only way we are
| ever going to find the political will to adapt cities for non-
| car uses is if enough people use alternate transportation to
| make it worthwhile, and that's going to make things messy for a
| while.
|
| Imagine how awesome scooters would be if a city had as many
| scooter parking spaces as it did car parking spaces, and as
| many scooter lanes as it did car lanes...
| 3v1n0 wrote:
| Totally true... It's often hard to think this way as we grew
| up with cars always there and it's not something you are used
| to think that our cities are just a big space that is at the
| service of cars and that who tries to say that is seen as
| stupid frik.
|
| While we should indeed think more that reducing the space
| used by cars is just giving better alternatives a way to
| prosper without bothering pedestrians.
|
| But really, it's not easy. Last night I was listening a guy
| on TV (a journalist who consider himself a progessist) who
| was complaining about bike lanes and that he's against the
| implementation they're doing in Rome because it's just at the
| service of the scooters, like if people driving them were 2nd
| class citizens. Fuck this people!
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I wish! I remember years ago on Slashdot people were really
| hyped about this "Ginger" thing that was going to change how
| cities were designed. Then the Segway dropped and immediately
| all these science-loving, future-thinking dreamers suddenly
| turned into NIMBYs.
|
| The car-centric view has such a stranglehold on modern
| culture. Even in places like NYC you'll find pedestrians and
| public transport users dumping on cyclists or electric
| scooter riders, as if they're doing even a fraction to
| destroy the livability of the city as much as cabs and other
| large vehicles.
| jandrese wrote:
| Segway's big fault was that it was just way too expensive.
| These small scooters are eventually proving the dream,
| mostly because normal people can actually afford them.
| ghaff wrote:
| Price was part of it but even the company thought that
| they really needed to be used on sidewalks and they spent
| a lot of money and effort lobbying for that to be legal.
| (Though to be fair bike lanes were less common in the US
| at the time.)
| jandrese wrote:
| As opposed to these scooter companies that just YOLOed
| the whole sidewalk situation and figured they would be
| too popular to ban once the courts/city councils finally
| got around to deciding what to do.
| clairity wrote:
| it'd be relatively easy and cheap to solve this problem in a
| lot of cities by turning all the on-street parking into
| schooter/bike lanes. you can fit 2 lanes (slow & fast) on
| each side of the road. you'd eliminate both complaints about
| riding on the road and on the sidewalk in one fell swoop.
| _and_ , you'd internalize the cost of parking to boot.
| ghaff wrote:
| And people don't come into your city from the outside but
| maybe you're OK with that.
| paxys wrote:
| There is no reason to rent out some of the most valuable
| real estate in your city for $1/hour. If people from
| outside want to drive in they can use a market-rate
| parking lot.
| ghaff wrote:
| I have absolutely zero problem with cities putting
| whatever policies they want in place. And folks deciding
| whether to come into the city for whatever reason will
| make whatever decisions they want. (Which will often
| include cost of parking.) I'd also observe that a lot of
| on-street parking is allocated for local residents.
| vanilla_nut wrote:
| Not to mention the fact that on-street parking often
| makes stop-sign intersections very dangerous because the
| parked cars block all visibility, even when set back from
| intersections.
| clairity wrote:
| maybe at the margin, but unlikely enough to matter. in
| any case, either drivers will pay market prices for
| interior parking or park in the outskirts and ride
| transit into the city. either way, they could bring their
| bikes and scooters (or use these micromobility or
| ridehailing apps) for added interior range and
| efficiency.
| ambyra wrote:
| I never thought of this. Everything annoying about rental
| scooters applies to cars x1000. Not to mention the energy
| cost of moving a 2500lb vehicle and one passenger, vs a 60lb
| scooter and a passenger.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| >Imagine how awesome scooters would be if a city had as many
| scooter parking spaces as it did car parking spaces, and as
| many scooter lanes as it did car lanes...
|
| Right, exactly. Parking would take up a fraction of the space
| of car parking, emissions would be lower, etc. (They don't
| necessarily need to be dedicated scooter lanes either; bikes
| are moving at similar speeds and with similar risk, so
| protected bike lanes would work well for both.)
|
| I could bike to just about anywhere I might want to go in the
| city I live in within about 35 minutes. I'm sure I'd be
| healthier, I'd be lowering my emissions vs. driving, and in
| many cases I'd get there faster than via public transport:
| the routes don't cover everything and bus/train service is
| infrequent enough that you often have to wait. I don't,
| because I don't feel safe enough on the streets here; they're
| designed with cars in mind, for high speeds. I wish we had
| infrastructure designed for bikes and scooters alongside the
| car infrastructure, because I would absolutely use them.
|
| EDIT: And if you want to see what the alternative could look
| like, take a look at this video and think about how many cars
| you would need to move all those people:
| https://youtu.be/ynwMN3Z9Og8
| beowulfey wrote:
| I will always maintain that Los Angeles would benefit
| immensely by simply making one of the east-west surface
| roads stretching across the city a bike-and-bus only route!
| One of the first CicLAcia events was down the entire
| stretch of Venice Blvd from downtown to the beach. I have
| NEVER had so much fun biking as I did that day, and what a
| fun way to cross the city!
| jacobmoe wrote:
| Completely agree. I mostly get around by bike or running and
| I doubt I'll use scooters very much, but I'm excited for
| these to come to the city. The more people there are using
| alternative forms of transport, the more people become aware
| of how insane it is that we allocate so much of our scarce
| space in the city exclusively to the needs of car owners.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > The problems with scooters are the same problems bikes or
| skateboards have, but just more visible because so many
| people use the scooters.
|
| I'm not so sure about this. I've never seen people leave
| their personal bike or skateboard in the middle of the
| sidewalk. At worst you may find some bike attached to a
| lamppost or something that will take up half a small
| sidewalk.
|
| Scooters, however, are often left literally in the middle of
| the sidewalk, blocking the passage. This also applies to
| shared bikes without stations, but for some reason it seems
| to happen somewhat less often.
|
| On a personal note, I've tried them a few times, and to me
| there are two main issues which made me stop using them:
|
| 1. We have many streets with cobblestones, and scooters are
| absolutely awful on those. Bikes are a pain, but somewhat
| bearable. It also doesn't help that most paths away from
| traffic have mainly cobblestones.
|
| 2. I feel really, really unsafe riding them. They have
| terrible acceleration, basically no brakes and don't feel
| stable at all. (I do ride a motorcycle though, so I may be
| biased). I don't feel these issues on bicycles. And I think
| this may explain at least some of the risky behaviour we
| notice around here: people loathe having to stop, accelerate
| or delicately manoeuvre around something.
|
| They're also freaking expensive here compared to the shared
| bikes, so I much prefer the latter.
| kapp_in_life wrote:
| I think the scooters being left in the middle of the
| sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty,
| inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park
| themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see
| how that fixes itself.
|
| Personal bikes/skateboards get locked up and put out of the
| way because people have an active interest to keep them
| from getting scuffed or damaged, but that factor isn't
| present for a rented scooter.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > I think the scooters being left in the middle of the
| sidewalk is more a function of people being shitty,
| inconsiderate, and lazy. Unless the scooters self park
| themselves or people who dump them get shamed I don't see
| how that fixes itself.
|
| I wholly agree. I think it's just like trash on the
| ground, it mostly doesn't get itself there on its own.
|
| But maybe companies should take the habits of local
| people into account. If you know people won't bother to
| leave them out of the way, maybe don't deploy your
| service there? Just as if you know people are going to
| trash your scooters, steal batteries or anything else,
| you won't enter that market because it will be too
| expensive. But I guess the latter affects the company's
| bottom line, whereas the former is, at worst, just bad
| press.
| notatoad wrote:
| Scooters being dumped in the middle of a useful space is
| a function of there being literally nowhere to park a
| scooter. Sure, people are lazy and selfish, but they
| aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take the
| inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put the
| scooter.
|
| I don't see anybody suggesting car ownership should be
| forbidden from cities where there isn't enough parking.
| Why is providing parking only the responsibility of
| scooter companies, and not car companies?
|
| Cities adapt to meet the needs of the residents, and the
| needs of the residents can change. That change shouldn't
| be forbidden because of the current structure of our
| cities
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > but they aren't so lazy that they'll continue to take
| the inconsiderate option if you give them a place to put
| the scooter.
|
| You'd think so. Take a stroll through the streets of
| Paris and then see if you still stand by this statement.
|
| Even when the sidewalk is narrow, you can leave your
| scooter against a wall, not _across_ the sidewalk. You
| can maybe leave it 50 meters further, where the sidewalk
| is wider, etc. You know, try to be considerate of other
| people who probably don 't want to have to push your
| scooter out of the way just because you didn't feel like
| taking 10 seconds to park it properly.
|
| When the infrastructure is lacking, you can either be a
| nuisance and argue that it's the city's fault for not
| providing wider sidewalks or whatever, or try to adapt to
| the situation while the city does something about it.
|
| Of course the cities have to adapt to the needs of their
| residents. But they usually are slow to do that. Now,
| even if I personally dislike those scooters, I won't
| argue for outright banning them. But at some point, I can
| understand people being frustrated with other people
| being an outright nuisance.
|
| And guess what? Paris actually has laws on the books
| prohibiting this (randomly blocking sidewalks, or riding
| a bike or motorised vehicle on them). But they are rarely
| enforced. So people get angry. And I figure that just as
| cities have to change to suit the needs of their scooter-
| riding residents, they also have to adapt to those of
| their non-scooter-riding residents, too.
|
| Now of course, the best solution would be the one which
| would content both parties, but politics being what they
| are, it's easier to ask to outright ban things. But,
| again, I don't think that's always the best approach and
| don't personally advocate for it. I actually think that
| it would be better to replace cars with electric
| scooters, and that they do need infrastructure which the
| city should build (and they're actually doing it).
|
| But I can't condone antisocial behaviour by scooter-
| riders while the city builds said infrastructure. And
| yes, if people apparently can't be trusted to ride them
| in a way which doesn't endanger or incommode others,
| maybe outright banning _is_ a solution. I think "this is
| why we can't have nice things" applies perfectly here.
|
| Also, just because cars are a nuisance it shouldn't mean
| that we should accept any new nuisance. We should fight
| back against this, and the first step is to not worsen an
| already bad situation.
| Ma8ee wrote:
| Exactly. Convert every fifth car parking spot to a
| scooter and bicycle parking, and the problem will go
| away.
| [deleted]
| analog31 wrote:
| In my view, bikes have been around long enough that most
| people who are riding them, have some amount of experience,
| that affects their habits and expectations. This would
| affect things like route choice, courtesy, parking, and so
| forth. When a newcomer shows up, they're already surrounded
| by experienced cyclists. A bike also demands a basic amount
| of skill that has to be learned somewhere. When bike shares
| are introduced into a town, you don't have a bunch of
| people on them who are riding a bike for their first time
| ever.
|
| This shouldn't be technically impossible with scooters, and
| would happen if people owned them and brought them into the
| transportation mix gradually. But it doesn't fit into the
| "startup bubble" business model that seems to drive their
| rapid ascent and equally rapid disappearance in most
| cities.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Also, at least until the recent trend of dockless rental
| bikes, you needed to physically chain up a bike to
| something unless you wanted it stolen.
|
| Most of the things that one can reasonably chain a bike
| to are generally located on the side of the street to
| begin with; they may just out into the public right of
| way because of their size, but it doesn't usually block
| the whole street.
|
| Dockless scooters have no such requirement and so it's
| not that surprising that people went with the path of
| least resistance and just dumped them in the middle.
| dv_dt wrote:
| There interesting thing is the increasing number of cities
| which are designating pedestrian only areas. I think scooters
| become a pretty natural way to expand and connect these areas
| within cities, overall making for more human oriented living.
| sneak wrote:
| Scooters without a helmet (their normal and usual use case) are
| way more than "kinda" dangerous.
|
| I don't think the fact that these are extremely dangerous to
| their rider is a reason to ban them, though. Let fools fuck
| themselves up on these death traps if they like. The danger to
| uninvolved pedestrians is a great reason to ban them from
| sidewalk use, however.
|
| There is no justification for vehicle use on the sidewalk.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| Extra con for the ones I tried in San Francisco: The slightest
| hill would make them crap out.
| wittekm wrote:
| Agreed - the common rental ones really have no power. I think
| Lime and its ilk are usually in the 300w range.
|
| I bought my own scooter on a whim; it can toggle between 500w
| and 1000w of power, and I rarely need the 1000w except for
| the craziest Seattle hills.
|
| Basically what I'm trying to say here is: totally solvable
| problem, just comes down to the unit cost of the rental
| scooters
| foolfoolz wrote:
| i agree a lot. most complainers had never used it. most users
| were happy with it
|
| there's a stigma to just riding a scooter. it's not cool.
| during the rent a scooter craze the lamest thing you could do
| was buy your own scooter for $500. i don't know why but they
| have to get over that barrier before people will accept it
| without using it. bikes appear to have crossed that barrier,
| sometimes
| leoedin wrote:
| Privately owned escooters in London are everywhere, and
| mostly ridden by local teenagers and young adults. I don't
| think they suffer from being uncool. Possibly because they're
| technically illegal - so owning one is a rebellious act.
| vmception wrote:
| why are you and the grandparent poster talking in past tense
|
| southern california still has a lot of scooters and it is a
| bit more organized than it was in the past but not remarkably
| different, people still buy their own scooters and the major
| e-scooter providers have plans for you to buy your own
| dedicated scooter of their brand, this article is also
| talking in the present tense and referring to existing
| californian markets too
| beowulfey wrote:
| Haha, I was talking in past tense because I sadly moved
| away; when I left there had been a temporary ban in place
| and wasn't sure if they were back yet.
| scrollaway wrote:
| Here in Brussels, e-scooters are a serious plague. They are so
| often left in the middle of sidewalks, and they are super heavy
| so moving them out of the way is very annoying. Plus they start
| beeping like crazy.
|
| I was on roller skates a while back, someone left a scooter in
| the middle of the park. I picked it up to move it, it started
| beeping, startled me, i fell and it fell on my hand. Took me
| five weeks to heal.
|
| More bike sharing please. People tend to leave the bikes in
| appropriate spots. I agree the station-based bikes are awful
| (we have Villo here which is ridiculously bad). But JUMP and
| our local alternative Billy are cheaper and better ways to get
| through the city.
|
| Plus those scooters fail hard on cobblestone. It took Lime
| almost two years to realize their scooters were not appropriate
| for half the city, and to replace them with a beefier model.
| dalbasal wrote:
| George Hotz (of all people) had a great take on e-scooter as a
| business model.
|
| If the startup/company puts up all the capital, has marginal
| costs _and_ competition, there is never any potential for
| "takeoff." Impossible trifecta. That's why he thinks waymo is
| doomed. Uber showed that even a handful of competitors can
| discipline prices enough to make profiting hard. uber can at
| least scale without buying cars, but competition means tight
| margins.
|
| It's ironic that SV-Startup world accidentally created a
| Perfectly Normal Business Sector and found it bemusing. It's
| emblemagic of current private sector conundrums. Inasmuch as
| price competition exists, the value of the S&P 500 approaches
| zero. That's chalkboard extremism, obviously... OTOH, while
| "Monopoly Requirement" is too strong a descriptor but "moat" is
| not strong enough.
|
| The other cons (ugly/dangerous/etc.) are emblematic of current
| public sector conundrums. To scale scooters/biking, we need a
| proficient public sector. Regulation for basic safety that
| isn't regulating to death, or regulating badly. Also, how are
| we an advanced global civilization but can't adapt our
| cityscapes any better than literal iron age brutes. As we
| advance in some fields, the fields that do not advance become
| blatant. Our forebears dug canals with sticks, and often did a
| very impressive job. We can't 100X digging with sticks?
| paxys wrote:
| What killed e-scooters was regulation, not competition.
| bsder wrote:
| What killed e-scooters is the fact that they are _never
| where you need them_ and they are always _in all the places
| that are annoying_.
|
| If I'm hitting the grocery store, I need a scooter near my
| house. The problem is that this isn't a volume point, so
| nobody puts more than one at a convenient point and its
| always gone.
|
| Once I get to the grocery store, I need one to come home.
| This _IS_ a volume point, but quite a few people walk to
| the store and then ride home. This drains the volume point
| so I can 't count on having one when I need it.
|
| However, I will be tripping over scooters generally at the
| halfway point (there's a very popular hipster coffee shop)
| when I walk to that grocery store--a point where the cost
| isn't worth it anymore so now the scooters just piss me
| off.
|
| The problem to be solved wasn't scooters--it was _roads_.
| We need dedicated low-speed infrastructure--walking,
| biking, scootering, whatever, that _doesn 't allow cars_.
| However, fixing that is slow, not profitable for just you,
| and requires that you move the political apparatus.
| toxik wrote:
| E-scooters are an absolute plague in the city I live in. They
| are typically operated by inexperienced drivers, very often on
| sidewalks. 12 mph is enough to kill old people.
|
| They should be banned, there is no question.
| xeromal wrote:
| Your 4th con was the one that always got me. These rental
| programs don't work when meth heads frequently throw them into
| the ocean, middle of the street, or in water fountains.
| seppin wrote:
| Every local ER will see a spike of injuries related to
| accidents too
| RandallBrown wrote:
| I love the idea of electric scooter (and bike) sharing but in
| practice it just doesn't work.
|
| Link scooters just started showing up in Seattle and I decided to
| take one a couple miles to meet up with a friend for dinner. It
| would have been faster to walk there.
|
| After bout 6 or 7 minutes of riding and only making it half a
| mile (and one harrowing experience with a yellow light), I
| stopped at a Jump bike. I opened the Uber app to book it and
| couldn't figure out how so I opened the Jump app. I wasn't signed
| in and my Uber password wasn't stored in my password manager so I
| had to reset my password. After doing that I finally made it into
| the Jump app only to have a single button that says "Launch Uber"
| and I was back to where I started. Of course I now had to sign in
| to the Uber app again since I just reset my password.
|
| I still couldn't figure out how to book the thing so I just
| called a Lyft and finally made it to the restaurant. (I did
| finally figure out how to book it once I was in the car. I think
| my problem was that maybe the bike I was standing near wasn't
| showing up on the map.)
|
| It was a bit of a comedy of errors last night but all my other
| experiences with electric scooters have been pretty inconvenient.
| recuter wrote:
| They demoed using an NFC qr-code type sticker thingy a year and
| a half ago:
|
| https://developer.apple.com/app-clips/
| https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/13/18618336/apple-pay-bird-e...
|
| It's supposed to be one tap with no app installed when you walk
| up to one.
| leoedin wrote:
| That's not a problem with scooter and bike sharing, but with
| that specific app.
|
| I've used a whole range of bike and scooter systems, some
| docked and some dockless, and mostly the apps worked fine. Scan
| a QR code, unlock and off you go. It can definitely work
| seamlessly.
| SahAssar wrote:
| Aren't all your problems with the apps, not with the actual
| scooters?
| cinntaile wrote:
| Here you open up the app, scan the QR code and you're good to
| go. This is pretty much a solved problem but yes if you're
| logged out it can get time consuming.
|
| The problem, to me at least, is that they're quite expensive to
| use. I get why. Servicing them is expensive, the scooters often
| get vandalized and people don't take care of them.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| The smartphone experience in a nutshell. Life was easier
| without them.
| cletus wrote:
| Holy crap, that's a lot of words. I'm pretty sure judicious
| editing could've halved the length of that.
|
| Speaking as someone who lived in NYC for 10 years I am absolutely
| against the scooters that plague other cities coming to NYC. Why?
| Several reasons:
|
| 1. There are too many people on the sidewalks. At least cyclists
| almost always ride on the road. In my experience, amateur scooter
| riders think it's fine to ride an electrified vehicle (often
| poorly) on the sidewalk. It's not;
|
| 2. The sidewalks are too narrow already in most places. This is
| exacerbated by all the permits given for various news stands,
| outdoor seating and whatnot that create a ton of choke points on
| the sidewalks as is;
|
| 3. People are already really bad at effectively sharing the
| sidewalks as pedestrians. The three biggest categories here are
| tourists (this is probably the first time in their lives they've
| had the option of walking anywhere and it shows), phone zombies
| (just stop and send that text rather than walk oblivious to your
| surroundings at 1mph) and people who walk in groups and want to
| walk slowly 4 abreast.
|
| Oh and as with cyclists, the problem isn't the delivery people.
| They have an economic interest in getting where they're going
| safely and quickly. The only time I see them (on vehicles) on the
| sidewalks is when they're picking up or dropping off.
|
| It's all the shared bike and scooter people that are the problem.
|
| At least previously the only scooter riders had their own scooter
| and were thus far fewer in number.
|
| In other cities (eg Miami, even SF), the pedestrian density is
| far lower so it's less of a problem.
|
| Oh and of course people just dump the shared scooters in the
| middle of the sidewalk. Honestly, they're a menace.
|
| Here's a compromise: get rid of 1 lane of parking on each street
| and widen both sidewalks by the space saved. Then there might be
| room.
| ec109685 wrote:
| That is the style of the New Yorker. They throw some cartoons
| to break up the wall of text and go deeper into the
| personalities of who they covering (e.g. they built up suspense
| on which company was going to win the bid at the end).
|
| More to the point, the article discusses the strict geofencing
| scooter makers are putting in place to prevent sidewalk use and
| parking in a non-designated spot. In SF, for example, if you
| try to end your ride in the wrong spot, you can't, and would
| keep racking up charges. Their scooters also contain electronic
| bike chains, so you have to actually lock the scooter to a rack
| to properly end it. Seemed to work okay and encouraged me to
| place it in the right spot.
|
| I agree dedicated lanes are the best way forward. Once you have
| that, go all in on scooters and other e-* technology and avoid
| the short cab / Uber rides completely.
| adwi wrote:
| How many thousands of words and no mention of Revel?
|
| Vespa-like electric scooter company operating in NYC for the last
| few years.
|
| Solves a ton of problems:
|
| 1) faster snd operates in traffic (so less issue with their 25mph
| speed vs bikes, not operated on sidewalks so fewer peds to mow
| over, etc)
|
| 2) requires full-face helmet use and cursory safety training
|
| 3) street parks, and user is liable for tickets, which keeps them
| off the sidewalk and brings the city revenue
|
| 4) they've been good citizens, responsive to issues their riders
| cause
|
| 5) I don't want to die from embarrassment being seen on one.
| walshemj wrote:
| Might not work most places you need at least a partial Bike
| license and often for sensible commuting scooters >125 cc you
| need a full bike license.
|
| I mean a Vespa here and not those tiny wheel abominations
| brookside wrote:
| I'm very glad Revel exists for scooter transport on demand (and
| really miss car2go for on-demand cars), however:
|
| 1. The Revel scooters feel somewhat sketchy to ride 2. Prices
| have crept up significantly. A 14 minute ride I just took was
| 10+ bucks, which isn't too much different than being
| chauffeured in an Uber/Lyft. I'd guess Revel is still operating
| at a loss, there is just less VC capital funding the rides now.
| nicwolff wrote:
| Actually they're limited to 29 mph, which is fast enough to
| ride the green wave. And they require a DOT-approved helmet,
| but I don't see anything saying it has to be full-face -
| although the ones they supply are.
| alasano wrote:
| I love owning an electric scooter in a city in which no companies
| are allowed to rent them. All the upside of using it, none of the
| downside of people hating on them.
| siriuz wrote:
| Coming from a rural area, with more-or-less long distances
| between shops - it is not only a device for cities! =)
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| One aspect that seems unacknowledged (maybe it is in the article,
| I haven't finished it) is weather. I bought an electric scooter
| and happily used it along with biking last summer. However the
| moment it turned cold in New York, scootering became
| significantly less appealing. My hands get really cold; snow,
| slush and ice increase danger and my friends were less likely to
| want to come with me.
|
| It's quite noticeable that the cities cited are all relatively
| warm places. I bet that as scooters expand to colder areas,
| they'll have a harder time with adoption.
|
| Edit: the article does acknowledge it!
|
| > If nothing else, the day would prove conclusively that
| scootering is not the best mode of travel in the dead of a New
| York winter. You can't put your hands in your pockets while
| driving or lean into the wind. In a lot of ways, walking that
| last mile works better, and it's free.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Can't speak to e-scooters in particular, but cold weather gets
| cited as a problem for bikes as well, so thought I'd bring this
| up: for bikes at least it's as much of a question of
| infrastructure priorities as it is the weather itself. Plenty
| of people bike in places with much colder weather than New York
| all the time: https://youtu.be/Uhx-26GfCBU
|
| ...they just have safe paths to ride on, and those paths get
| maintained. (So: not a painted bike lane that all the snow gets
| shoveled into.)
| hardwaregeek wrote:
| That's true, but there's something to be said about culture.
| Bikes in the Netherlands are a way of life. Bikes in the US
| are recreational/occasionally professional. If people are
| inconvenienced, they just won't use it.
|
| Not to mention in New York, there's already significant risks
| that come with biking/scootering. You always always have to
| share the road for at least some part of the trip and are
| constantly at risk of car doors, pedestrians and ironically,
| really fast e-bikes. I know that during the summer the
| benefits outweigh the risks, at least during pandemic. During
| the winter with ice and snow? Hell no.
| ryukafalz wrote:
| Culture might be the reason the Netherlands started down
| the path they're on today of building more bicycle
| infrastructure and we haven't, but...
|
| The thing is, culture influences infrastructure, but the
| reverse is also true. Bikes in the Netherlands are a way of
| life partly because it's very safe to bike to your
| destination there! You don't need Dutch culture to get to
| that point, look at Vancouver: https://youtu.be/N9JHfFutvik
|
| You're right that at the moment, bikes in the US are mostly
| considered to be recreational, and as a result they're not
| treated seriously as transportation. But I think people
| will get to where they're going however is most convenient,
| and as a result we can get more people cycling by _making_
| it more convenient.
|
| (You can count me as one of those people; I have little
| interest in cycling for recreation, but I would absolutely
| bike around the city if it were safer. Given the limited
| reach of our public transit, it would honestly be the
| quickest way to get where I need to go most of the time.)
| jsjsbdkj wrote:
| As someone who lives in a city with a pretty active winter-
| biking culture, overcoming the problems of winter with an
| e-scooter is a non-starter. Riders here have fat bikes,
| studded tires, and gloves that slide onto the handlebars.
| Even converting a bikeshare fleet would be tough, but
| converting scooters with tiny wheels would be impossible.
| ygram wrote:
| Well, there are plenty of companies operating in for example
| Stockholm, Oslo and Helsinki. Just like regular bicycles thre
| are more riders in the summer than in thr winter.
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.is/pSC7V
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