[HN Gopher] Sisters with Transistors
___________________________________________________________________
Sisters with Transistors
Author : zeristor
Score : 144 points
Date : 2021-04-24 10:07 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.rogerebert.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.rogerebert.com)
| jpm_sd wrote:
| Looks like it's streamable online with a $5/mo membership.
| Special Q&A with the director tonight (4/24)
|
| https://metrograph.com/live-screenings/sisters-with-transist...
| brylie wrote:
| Unfortunately, only in the U.S.
| duquedeturing wrote:
| Found it (for rent) on Vimeo for other countries.
| lstamour wrote:
| https://sisterswithtransistors.com/watch lists where to
| watch it for the US, UK and elsewhere (Vimeo) but the Vimeo
| excludes the following countries: France, Germany, Norway,
| Denmark, Canada, Australia, Austria, Russia, Poland and
| Israel.
|
| I can confirm as a Canadian that I'm having a hard time
| watching it without (presumably) a VPN.
| stonesweep wrote:
| It seems like this website is trying to convert to local
| timezone in browser, the ICS places it at 8pm on 4/24 New York
| time:
| DTSTART;TZID=America/New_York:20210424T200000
| DTEND;TZID=America/New_York:20210424T212400
|
| If you're a frontend developer on HN reading this, please don't
| do what this website does - please list an absolute date/time
| stamp of your event in plain text on the page(s) in question.
| Thanks in advance.
| grenoire wrote:
| Slightly off-topic; I can't read this article without scrambling
| my brain. Whatever review is hidden inside here is behind a wall
| of obscure references that only the niche target audience can
| understand, and as I try to navigate around all of these, I'm
| able to find a couple sentences which actually convey what's
| going on in the documentary and what the author thinks about it.
| Please don't write like this, you're only entertaining yourself
| [, the author].
| KineticLensman wrote:
| > a wall of obscure references that only the niche target
| audience can understand
|
| The first para contains references to
|
| >> Beethoven and Mozart, even Elvis and John Lennon
|
| The next para lists the 'sisters' themselves. I hadn't heard of
| them but then that is the whole point of the film under review
|
| > I'm able to find a couple sentences which actually convey
| what's going on in the documentary and what the author thinks
| about it
|
| I think the following para is quite explicit about what is
| going on.
|
| >> The narrative, which is wonderfully told through a kind of
| archival collage that, along with the futuristic soundtrack of
| the profiled composers, makes it feel like an avant-garde art
| film. It explores its stars chronologically and tells of how
| they evolved the musical culture in terms of not only language
| but also technology, which itself opened up an array of new
| avenues without needing the approval of others, again, mostly
| men. What's interesting is that many of the women profiled were
| from classical backgrounds. Oram is a prime example, having
| turned down a spot at London's prestigious Royal Academy of
| Music so she could work at the legendary BBC Radiophonic
| Workshop, and eventually building a proto-synthesizer that used
| a bespoke notation system called "Oramics."
|
| We then have several additional para that goes into more
| detail.
| jxramos wrote:
| I like to think we'd all be better off operating "without
| needing the approval of others" be them male or female. In
| the end it's the open market of ideas and services that will
| judge you in your contemporaneous settings, but who knows
| maybe future generations will dig someone's particular works.
| Or maybe they can just do the work because they enjoy it
| themselves. Just to it.
| codeulike wrote:
| Just seems like a normal film review to me. What bits are you
| struggling with?
| tclancy wrote:
| Huh? The subjects are relatively obscure and most of the movies
| in question are from a long time ago. Finally, the film is
| specifically about people who did not get the recognition they
| deserve. And journals about a specific topic tend to talk
| about/ focus on things the author considers hidden gems. Stuff
| like this is why I appreciate HN. No one bats an eye at yet
| another article on an esolanguage no one will ever use in
| production yet you want to complain you have not heard of these
| women?
| wpietri wrote:
| This is a mistake I think of as "universalizing my
| preferences". Yes, it doesn't work for you. So one of two
| things is true: 1) a professional writer and a popular, long-
| running publication's professional editors have totally failed
| to do their jobs, or b) you're not the target audience.
|
| In this case, it's definitely the latter. This is writing meant
| to be read linearly from beginning to end. The purpose of the
| early bits are to create interest and intrigue. To open
| questions in your mind that will be answered later. To activate
| concepts and feelings that are important to the mental
| experience the writer is trying to create.
|
| The short version is that this was written for print, not the
| web: "Print is linear, author-driven storytelling. The web is
| nonlinear, reader-driven, ruthless pursuit of actionable
| content." -- https://www.nngroup.com/articles/writing-style-
| for-print-vs-...
|
| Eventually, the print-vs-web distinction will die out, but I
| don't think the print style will die. Instead, we'll rename it
| something like "long read". Because the info-foraging approach
| one use on the web has its limits. Sometimes I want to be taken
| on a journey by the author. As much as I love foraging, there
| are some experiences and insights that I don't get when I'm
| dashing around like a ferret who got into the adderall. For me
| that definitely includes movie reviews. If I want a quick
| summary, I look at Rotten Tomatoes or Google's infobox. If I
| want to understand the experience, I'm going to sit still for
| as many as four minutes and let a professional reviewer give me
| an experience.
| nerdponx wrote:
| "Long read" or "long form" is already a term for these
| articles, and I usually can't stand them in print either.
|
| Fine, some people like when their information is presented in
| the form of literature. I don't mind it myself once in a
| while, but usually I find myself wishing they'd get to the
| point, and I feel no wiser for having taken so long when (and
| if) they do ever get there.
|
| If nothing else, I really wish -- if only for the purpose of
| accessibility and inclusion!! -- that these longform articles
| would also include an abstract or summary stating the main
| points.
| jxramos wrote:
| This is why I appreciate Axios coverage. It's so to the
| point and to the other extreme it's almost embarrassing to
| think of all the spilled ink others have poured forth.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Hmm - based on the comment I thought I would find an article
| full off synth terms like LFO or subtractive synthesis or low
| pass 12db filter or whatever,but it reads like a regular movie
| review, focused entirely on people and their plight...
| mark-r wrote:
| It is absolutely a regular movie review. I had no idea Roger
| Ebert's name was still being used after his death, but he was
| one of the most highly regarded movie critics ever.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Ebert
| jasperry wrote:
| I was so thrilled when I discovered Laurie Spiegel and wondered
| why she wasn't more famous. I feel like "The Expanding Universe"
| should be in the collection of everyone with even a casual
| interest in electronic music. Her website is also a trove of
| fascinating notes about early electronic music tech.
|
| Looking forward to finding about some of the other artists
| mentioned here.
| ninkendo wrote:
| +1 for The Expanding Universe! East River Dawn from that album
| is one of my favorite pieces of music. Something about it is
| just so calming and serene for me.
| khazhoux wrote:
| Referenced in article, Suzanne Ciani on the early (daytime)
| Letterman show:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZscRHkLMt0
|
| It's funny because here Dave is just learning about synths, and
| it predates Paul Schaffer joining him with his own wall of
| synths.
| mcwone wrote:
| Too bad the article does not mention Constance Demby.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ire8pSPvX1o
| creamynebula wrote:
| Thank you for mentioning her, I'm listening to Novus Magnificat
| and it is lovely!
| norswap wrote:
| I wish we could appreciate women's talents without feeling forced
| to prefix the whole thing with a blob about restoring them to
| their righteous place on the pantheon of whatever.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| incanus77 wrote:
| > I wish we could appreciate women's talents
|
| Yeah, so do women of the last few centuries! (and more)
| deeblering4 wrote:
| Women have been oppressed for centuries, and in the grand
| scheme we are only just beginning to emerge from that (in
| america).
|
| Today it is absolutely necessary to "prefix the thing" and
| there is still a long road ahead of damage to undo.
|
| After equality has been the norm for several generations (it is
| still not the norm today), maybe then we'll be ready to talk
| about removing the prefix.
| kleer001 wrote:
| Like how we appreciate people with blue eyes talents or tall
| people or left handed people without mentioning it?
|
| Thing is those people aren't born in different bell curves with
| different expectations, considerations, cultural histories, and
| preferences.
|
| Additionally this isn't just about talents, this is about being
| talented in a seemingly traditionally male arena, engineering.
| Women in engineering will always be of note since most women do
| not choose to be there.
| gumby wrote:
| I wish that too, and eventually we will get there. But there is
| a lot of progress _and_ catching up before we get there.
|
| Nowadays when I watch films or read books from the 50s, 60s,
| and 70s the depth of casual sexism is quite shocking. So that
| shows some progress. But still there's a tremendous amount of
| inequality to be overcome.
| meowkit wrote:
| I agree with the sentiment, but what I never see discussed is
| what the benchmarks are for reaching the proclaimed
| "equality".
|
| Often times it seems we are overshooting with attempts to
| create better societies - or worse shooting off in the wrong
| direction.
| walshemj wrote:
| The Star Treck pilot is an example.
| gumby wrote:
| What an excellent example because Star Trek was itself so
| very progressive for its time. Yet despite that may plot
| lines still centered around very rigid sexist assumptions.
| walshemj wrote:
| The pilot is an outlier - very blatant sexism against No1
| - Captain Pike being in despair and considering reigning.
| Gunax wrote:
| Sorry to go on a tangent, but I am surprised how many TNG
| episodes have 'alien species that is thinly veiled stand-
| in for some human race'. And this is a show that would
| have been woke for it's time.
|
| [1] https://memory-
| alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Up_The_Long_Ladder_(epi...
|
| [2] https://memory-
| alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Code_of_Honor_(episode)
| yongjik wrote:
| Tangent on a tangent, but my daughter was recently binge-
| watching The Clone Wars animated series and at one point
| I had to ask: "So they have Space Asians there?"
|
| Well, they already have Space Knights, Space Gunmen, and
| Space Witches, so why not.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| Yeah, it's pretty bad. Babylon 5 is super blatant about
| it, bordering on racist stereotypes.
| dasyatidprime wrote:
| Not to detract from the whole point as far as Star Trek
| showing its social-commentary age, but AFAIK "Code of
| Honor" specifically was very much an early outlier in TNG
| history, including starting with a director who didn't
| direct any other Star Trek episodes.
| walshemj wrote:
| The writer did get it made again as an early sg1 episode
| - though Sam Did look cute in her steppes princess outfit
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Ah, the insane early TNG episodes... For every Measure of
| a Man and Q Who, there's loads of this.
|
| Here's more fun recaps:
|
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/StarTrekTheN
| ext...
|
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/StarTrekTheN
| ext...
|
| Honorable mentions:
|
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/StarTrekTheN
| ext...
|
| https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/StarTrekTheN
| ext...
| gumby wrote:
| Well science fiction is merely a way to examine current
| society. The SF angle is an attempt to get a little
| "outside" perspective.
|
| It's pretty hard to make truly alien aliens, as the more
| alien they are, the harder they are to understand,
| identify with etc, making the stories themselves less
| interesting.
|
| The aliens in The Gods Themselves are pretty alien but
| still have, from time to time, a human-like mode of
| thinking which Asimov used to explain their behavior. The
| Bug Wars is the only book I've read that has no humans at
| all, though the aliens' mentalities are somewhat human,
| again to make them comprehensible.
|
| Famously "different" aliens (e.g. Moties, the bugs of
| Ender's Game & sequels) are actually pretty human in
| motivation.
|
| And the inscrutable aliens (e.g. Starship Troopers) are
| clearly inscrutable stand-ins for contemporary political
| enemies.
|
| The various literature on intelligent machines has the
| same problem.
| agumonkey wrote:
| Arrival was a good attempt at that
| Fellshard wrote:
| Moralized language makes it significantly more difficult to
| criticize, as doing so makes you immoral by implication, so any
| actual argument can be slapped down and ignored.
| fao_ wrote:
| Would you mind explaining what argument you are referring to?
| You seem to have some context that I (and presumably other
| people) don't.
| nerdponx wrote:
| Unless you can go back in time and put them in the pantheon
| back then, I don't see much of an alternative.
| teddyh wrote:
| Violence begets violence, and likewise, discrimination begets
| reverse discrimination. Someone must step up and end the
| cycle.
| deeblering4 wrote:
| Are you proposing that we all just pretend women were never
| oppressed and move on with our lives?
|
| That would essentially be gaslighting half of earths
| population.
|
| The cycle will end by itself in time through a series of
| under-corrections, but it's not going to happen overnight.
|
| And I'm sorry to say that comments like yours that
| undermine attribution of women are not part of the
| solution.
| fao_ wrote:
| Can you explain how a media collage of archival video of
| women pioneering early work in synthesizers is
| discriminating towards men? I'm not sure I see how that is
| the case.
| teddyh wrote:
| I am not the GP poster, and so I was not commenting on
| this specific case, but only on the more general
| principle. But if we apply the general principle to this
| case, it can be argued that placing women on a pedestal
| like this is both demeaning and othering them.
| throwaway1090 wrote:
| It's not close to putting on a pedestal. They are just
| being given their fair share, no more, no less. Actually
| it's not even fair, as most of them are dead.
| fao_ wrote:
| I'm... really (honestly!) not sure how this demeans
| women? Like to put it clearer: I absolutely in no way can
| see even a _path_ to understanding how it is demeaning to
| talk about things people did in the past, that were
| deliberately ignored or buried, because of their gender.
|
| I'm also not really sure what you mean by "general
| principle", either, to be honest?
|
| Thanks in advance!
| jollybean wrote:
| From a certain perspective, it's 'demeaning and
| patronizing' to elevate individuals beyond their true
| valour, for whatever purpose. People are more than their
| 'race or gender' and most musicians define themselves as
| artists or musicians first, not by their gender, i.e. not
| 'female musician'. So to be treated by a different
| standard may offend their sensibilities as artists or
| professionals, i..e the part of them that is not oriented
| towards the specific aspect of intersectionality.
|
| The Army is not the arts ... but for whatever reason at
| least in that organization the women generally really,
| really don't want to be treated differently. It's nice to
| be the 'first so and so to do such and such' but that's
| definitely not the point. They're not 'Lady Rangers',
| they are 'Rangers', full stop, and generally don't want a
| _sliver_ of space in between what they are, and what the
| Men are.
|
| Having not heard the music of 'Women With Transistors', I
| could be wrong ... but I'll suggest they're not on par
| with 'Beethoven'. So the issue then becomes the degree to
| which these ladies were overlooked, possibly due to
| sexism, and the nuances in that. That's the story. And
| there's a lot to unpack there obviously.
|
| I think the controversy arises because some people
| question the legitimacy of comparisons with 'historical
| greatness' and then others interpret that to be a form of
| delegitimisation of the challenges the women faced, or
| that they were overlooked. Which could be true in some
| form of rhetoric, but I think is not true on it's face,
| or rather, it's a least reasonable to question whether or
| not the people in question here are 'Beethovens'.
|
| And I'll say again - I haven't seen it, so I can't really
| be sure of this specific case, rather, I'm explaining how
| confusion can arise in these kinds of cases.
|
| But it looks like an exciting watch for sure.
| will4274 wrote:
| > "he's so smart and talented" "I know, and he's black
| too!"
|
| The subtle implication is that most smart and talented
| people are not black, that smarts and talents are
| atypical in blacks and more common in other races.
| havernator wrote:
| > I absolutely in no way can see even a path to
| understanding how it is demeaning to talk about things
| people did in the past, that were deliberately ignored or
| buried, because of their gender.
|
| Not the parent, but a common take on pieces like this is
| that they're trying too hard, and end up trying to
| promote people who'd clearly not have made any kind of
| "pantheon" even if they'd been men, yet frame it as if
| they would have. The _tone_ of this piece is a lot like
| one of those, even if the film isn't doing that (haven't
| seen it).
|
| As for how that might be demeaning, imagine if things
| were reversed and you read a piece about the forgotten
| Great Men Inventors that opened with put-downs of Roberta
| Oppenheimer and Thelma Edison and the Wright Sisters and
| demanded that we consider among their ranks the unjustly
| forgotten men inventors, who are just as good and
| important... like Edwin Moore, who patented the push-pin.
| Would that be inspiring to men, do you think? Or would it
| come off as lame pandering and an indictment of the
| premise ("there are tons of men who accomplished great
| things in the past but were ignored because they were
| men") that they couldn't find any better examples? Nb
| that a scarcity of such examples _even given perfect
| record keeping_ is exactly what one would expect in a
| society in which one sex had had far fewer opportunities
| to do work we consider notable, _no matter_ their actual
| potential.
| allturtles wrote:
| I particularly don't get the "dead" part about complaining
| about "dead white men." We all end up dead, one way or another.
| It will happen to the sisters with transistors, too.
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| I think part of the situation is that almost no one gets
| widespread recognition until after they are dead to begin
| with, if that.
|
| Not even those with a massive PR campaign, plus many
| experimentalists do not want to divert that kind of effort
| away from technical progress.
|
| So this is expressing a lagging indicator of a lingering
| statistic.
|
| Well, electronics itself is only about a hundred years old
| and it started out completely male dominated and decades of
| development continued from that point.
|
| Mainly development of technology not diversity, and that was
| truly challenging.
|
| And even though male dominated from the start, it was still
| out of reach to almost all men too, more so for those few
| oportunities mostly to undertake experimental efforts.
|
| So statistically at the beginning, electronics was virtually
| inaccessbile for almost all men & women to a somewhat equal
| degree.
|
| It was just not one of the things you could certainly do no
| matter how much you really wanted to, you had to basically
| get lucky in addition to your ambition.
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| "Music is haunted by the specters of Beethoven and Mozart, even
| Elvis and John Lennon, with the canon being built around these
| names that we are told deserve not just celebrating but
| worshipping. These old, dead white men."
|
| What a distasteful opening of an otherwise interesting article.
|
| As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical composers
| like Mozart and Beethoven down people's throats... No, most
| simply listen to their work being enamored by the virtuosity and
| talent of these people who lived centuries ago. Framing their
| work in the context of contemporary American identity politics is
| very cheap journalism, and distasteful.
|
| And let's not conflate classical music with postmodern
| experimental electronic music either. They don't belong to the
| same league. I do appreciate both genres, and while we can argue
| about the subjectivity of art all day long, there's a reason why
| the former enjoyed wide acclaim throughout the eras, while the
| latter remained an obscure academic interest.
| DavidVoid wrote:
| > As if some patriarchal conspiracy was forcing classical
| composers like Mozart and Beethoven down people's throats...
|
| No, but patriarchal and racial structures in society have
| historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male.
|
| Adam Neely has a good video on how the term "music theory" here
| in the West is essentially just "the harmonic style of 18th
| century European musicians" [1]. It's worth a watch if you're
| interested in music.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3quGh7pJA
| layoutIfNeeded wrote:
| >patriarchal and racial structures in society have
| historically suppressed artists who weren't white and male
|
| This is plain false. Those non-white and non-male artists who
| have reached sophistication and virtuosity comparable to
| Mozart and Beethoven were and are still acclaimed. Don't try
| to shove a narrative where there isn't one.
|
| Also, this doesn't add anything to the discussion about why
| audiences prefer dead (!) white (!!) male (!!!) composers
| like Mozart and Beethoven over the works of early
| experimental electronic composers. The answer is simply
| because most people don't like listening weird noise.
| throwaway1090 wrote:
| Check what gary_0 posted above on Maria Anna Mozart.
| gary_0 wrote:
| > like Mozart
|
| I am reminded of Maria Anna Mozart:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Anna_Mozart
|
| Before she approached "marriageable age" and was forbidden from
| performing, she was an equal musical talent to her brother, and
| sometimes received top billing.
|
| None of her compositions have survived.
| xbar wrote:
| I'm looking forward to watching the film and I'm glad it was
| reviewed. Thank you sharing this one.
| alamortsubite wrote:
| The highly-entertaining 1993 documentary "Theremin: An Electronic
| Odyssey" [1] devotes much attention to Clara Rockmore [2], an
| incredible figure I'm glad to see is a subject of this new film.
| I think it's fair to say Leon Theremin wouldn't have made it far
| without her.
|
| 1: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108323
|
| 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Rockmore
| fuzzfactor wrote:
| On Youtube there is Sue Bob Jackson at 1:49:40 live on her
| theremin in 2001 where she brings on a guest artist and becomes
| a Viking for a bit:
|
| https://ww.youtube.com/watch?v=nd517b80srQ
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I think that Delia Derbyshire has been discussed here previously.
|
| But women have played a huge role in all types of tech, since the
| early days (can you say "Grace Hopper"? I knew you could!). In
| the old days of "big iron," the people that actually touched the
| computers tended to be women. The men did their work with pads of
| paper. I started programming in the waning days of "big iron,"
| and the roles had started changing. I think that a majority of
| the staff at Bletchley Park were women.
| [deleted]
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(page generated 2021-04-24 23:02 UTC)