[HN Gopher] Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ...
___________________________________________________________________
Volkswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the ID.4
Author : finphil
Score : 111 points
Date : 2021-04-23 17:11 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (abc7.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (abc7.com)
| intrasight wrote:
| My opinion is that the industry has gone in the wrong direction
| with batteries. Cars should use swappable rechargeable batteries
| swapped by robots at the charging station. Faster pit stops and
| simpler batteries (no need for water-cooled, etc) and cheaper
| cars. And elimination of concern of battery warranty.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Tesla attempted it and gave up. Given how much Musk loves
| ambition, there's probably a decent reason for it.
| noahmbarr wrote:
| Guessing you're a non-EV owner.
|
| I've owned a Tesla for the last 6 months. Here's my experience:
|
| * It charges at home, begining the charge at 12:30AM just after
| the rates drop. It charges to ~240 miles of range.
|
| * For the 4 days I've wanted to go futher, charged upto 100%
| and that solved my problem 2 of the 4.
|
| * Other 2 days, I stopped at a charger along my way on a road
| trip. there was a place to grab food and take a walk. 25
| minutes later on was back on the road. No biggie. -- I don't
| need or want a swapable battery. Rather have a better
| engineered car that doesn't have this engineering requirement.
|
| I'd assume 99% of Tesla owners would agree.
| bdamm wrote:
| Tesla Model 3 LR owner. Completely agree. There's no need for
| all the extra baggage for rapid battery swap. Road trips are
| easy already without swapping the battery. And the battery is
| swappable... just not rapidly. I've done many long distance
| road trips, and some regular road trips where I actually
| choose a slower (V1) supercharger because it's close to a
| friend's house and we can meet up for lunch or dinner while
| I'm passing through their city. The notification on my phone
| that the charge session has ended always interrupts our meal
| a bit earlier than we would naturally end it, but that just
| means no awkward goodbye. It's great.
|
| Also, I couldn't imagine driving an EV now without liquid
| cooled batteries. How would you preheat the battery when you
| want it to be nice and warm in preparation for a rapid
| charge, or to gain performance on cold mornings?
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| And the new Teslas have a heat pump to recycle battery heat
| into the cabin. There have been some notable failure
| reports with this, but so far so good on our Model Y.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Model Y here. Completely agree.
| rand49an wrote:
| That would massively increase the complexity and cost of
| batteries because suddenly they need to withstand being
| installed and removed thousands of times.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Many companies have tried this; all have failed. The latest to
| try is Ample [0], and we'll see how far they get. As a peer
| poster here observed, this idea seems correlated with people
| who don't have actual experience with EV ownership. It's a
| solution to a non-problem for the average driver [1].
|
| Besides, Tesla now spends about $250K to build a supercharger.
| A robotically-operated battery-swapping station would probably
| cost 10x as much both in initial capital and in maintenance
| costs.
|
| [0] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ample-ev-startup-
| swappabl...
|
| [1] Although it might be the perfect solution for some drivers.
| Uber drivers maybe, who Tesla doesn't allow to use
| superchargers and who need to recharge as quickly as possible.
| Snoozus wrote:
| Voltswagen
| xeromal wrote:
| hahaha, I'm still waiting for the postmortem on what that was.
| mmglr wrote:
| The 1st edition is already "sold out". Reserving the AWD Pro S
| Gradient, a $49,675 car, is $100. So I suspect the 1st edition
| was around that same reservation cost. Too low. Everyone has $100
| laying around. IMO reservations should be 10% msrp so that only
| serious buyers can make reservations.
| xeromal wrote:
| 10% is a bit high. Would take a lot of nads to drop 5k on a car
| that may or may not come out in a few years.
|
| $1000 feels more like the sweet spot.
| rsynnott wrote:
| This car is already out; they started shipping them last
| year.
| ajross wrote:
| Tesla wants $100 to reserve a car, so I'm sure that's why the
| value was picked. If their buyer backs out and the model is
| popular, they can always get full price on the car as
| configured anyway.
| Animats wrote:
| _But you 'll have to be patient; it's still two years away._
|
| No, they did not launch their first all-electric SUV. They
| _announced_ it. There 's a difference.
|
| [EDIT] Sorry, that's the "ID Buzz." A "people carrier in the
| spirit of the old Volkswagen microbus."
| brokenintuition wrote:
| There's one in my driveway right now, I guarantee you it's not
| two years away
| jackson1442 wrote:
| According to the site[1] they're shipping (shipped?) First
| Edition purchases to buyers in Q1 2021 and will be shipping
| cars made with reservations starting this summer for the lower
| trim and Oct-Nov for the higher trim.
|
| [1]: https://www.vw.com/pre-order/
| clouddrover wrote:
| They're delivering ID.4s across the world now. It's currently
| the third best selling EV in Norway for 2021:
|
| https://elbilstatistikk.no/
|
| It may end up being the best selling model in Norway this year.
| The Audi e-tron (which is also a Volkswagen SUV) was the best
| selling EV in Norway in 2020.
|
| Other VW SUVs which will be delivered this year are the Skoda
| Enyaq (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqdByCvnNQA) and the
| Audi Q4 e-tron (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ihZXQIlpRM).
| OBFUSCATED wrote:
| Is this why volkswagen.com is down?
|
| There was an unexpected error (type=Internal Server Error,
| status=500). Redis command timed out; nested exception is
| io.lettuce.core.RedisCommandTimeoutException: Command timed out
| after 1 minute(s)
| outside1234 wrote:
| That doesn't bode well for their in car digital services.
| I_am_tiberius wrote:
| You mean "Voltswagen launches its first all-electric SUV, the
| ID.4".
| bognition wrote:
| Here is a great no frills review of the ID.4
| https://youtu.be/3oC9sUiwyL8
|
| The TL;DR is even if its electric its not a serious competitor to
| tesla. The UI is terrible as the drive is unable to find a
| charger while navigating to their destination.
|
| Electric car charging stations are going to look completely
| different the gas stations as they costs a few thousand dollars
| to install rather than a cool million for a gas station. So
| rather than having a bunch of high profile gas stations we're
| going to end up with somewhat ubiquitous electric charging
| stations of varying capacity.
|
| Enabling drivers to know where to charge their cars is a killer
| feature of Telsa and any company that wants to compete will have
| to make it as easy if not easier to ensure your car is always
| charged and that you are able to charge on long trips.
| jeffbee wrote:
| id.4 comes with Android Auto and CarPlay compatibility. You'd
| be a fool to rely on the OEM tech.
|
| Tesla loses big in this regard because they don't offer either
| _and_ their built-in tech is garbage.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Tesla's vertical integration means navigation + charging
| planning, plus the actual charging, is seamless. I doubt
| you'd see the same with an iOS or Android app. Every time I
| read about charging for other platforms, it sounds terrible.
| jeffbee wrote:
| With Android Auto I just announce "OK Google, find charging
| stations along my route" and it works as you'd expect. It
| is in fact completely seamless, and unlike with Tesla I get
| state-of-the-art voice recognition and navigation that
| works offline.
| jseliger wrote:
| I just bought (co-bought) a Model Y, and and the Supercharger
| network meant that other electric cars were non-starters.
| Hyundai and Kia, for example, have Model Y competitors, but
| when I was looking at them, both directed would-be buyers to
| PlugShare.com for for non-local charging information: I invite
| anyone to look at that solution, and then look at the
| Supercharger solution.
|
| I also live in an apartment building, and my building is
| supposed to install 240v chargers sometime in the next few
| months. Most of the buildings around me already have them,
| mostly operated by Chargepoint, but a few by Blink: the change
| from "can't own an electric car in an apartment building" to
| "most apartment buildings have chargers" is happening and
| happening faster than many thought. Once people get used to
| charging cars at home, as a primary solution, I doubt they're
| going to want to go back to gas stations.
|
| The best ads for electric cars are the cars themselves. Most of
| my local friends have driven mine.
| rconti wrote:
| We've got a 3, and I strongly agree. It's a lot of money (to
| me), and the car needs to be able to do normal-car things
| like roadtrips.
|
| It would be one thing to buy a $10k commute appliance with
| limited range, but at $50k, it damn well better be able to be
| the "nice car" for roadtrips as well as for commuting.
| closeparen wrote:
| Are they going to install chargers in the assigned spaces of
| all the tenants who want them, or a couple of communal
| chargers for tenants to fight over? Having to go back out to
| the parking lot every couple of hours to see if the charger
| is free, move your car onto it, or move your car off of it,
| is right down the middle of "range anxiety."
| flurie wrote:
| What's interesting is that I did this recently and came to
| the opposite conclusion. Did you look at the situation when
| restricted to >= 250kW chargers? It's a completely different
| story, and that's with only one major CCS provider competing
| with Tesla. In the long run, those other chargers won't
| matter, and Tesla's expansion has been slow.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| > Electric car charging stations are going to look completely
| different the gas stations as they costs a few thousand dollars
| to install rather than a cool million for a gas station. So
| rather than having a bunch of high profile gas stations we're
| going to end up with somewhat ubiquitous electric charging
| stations of varying capacity.
|
| Yep, this is the big change people aren't yet getting. Every
| mom and pop store in a small town can get free advertising just
| by installing a $1k charger for their customers and having it
| be visible in charging maps.
|
| I have no interest in stopping to charge at Generic Gas Station
| #42 with the accompanying Franchise Fast Food Restaurant next
| to it when I'm on vacation or a road trip. I'll rather pick
| something interesting.
| xeromal wrote:
| Hopefully they can update the crappy destination charging
| through an OTA update. If not, it's DOA.
| sib wrote:
| Well... Slow chargers (~20 - 30 miles added per hour of
| charging) may cost only a few thousand dollars each, but DC
| fast chargers (100 - 350 KW) cost much, much more than that.
|
| UBS estimated USD250,000 per station in 2017 (unclear how many
| actual chargers per station).
|
| Slow chargers aren't remotely comparable to gas stations.
|
| (Of course, I understand that, for people who can charge at
| home, the picture is very different - we own two EVs and no ICE
| cars and are lucky enough to have charging in our garage.)
| [deleted]
| nikolay wrote:
| I'm puzzled why EVs are so expensive when they have simpler
| design and parts. Is it because of the battery? Also, isn't EMF
| radiation an issue for you?
| [deleted]
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| Yes, the batteries are currently still very expensive. You're
| right that engine-wise, they're considerably simpler.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > Is it because of the battery?
|
| That's the big contributor, yep.
|
| > Also, isn't EMF radiation an issue for you?
|
| For who? I mean, if you happen to be an AM radio it may be an
| issue, but I can't see why it would be a problem for humans.
| oblio wrote:
| Batteries are very expensive.
|
| EMF radiation from what?
| kbos87 wrote:
| What I'm really curious to see is whether or not "electric" is
| the single killer feature it is often positioned as.
|
| Semi-autonomous driving and overall UX are two places that Tesla
| is just so far ahead. I think other manufacturers will make
| progress, but they are likely to be slow. Electric is compelling
| but it's only a small part of the overall value prop for a lot of
| buyers.
| rsynnott wrote:
| European BEV sales figures would indicate that Tesla's
| 'autopilot' is not a huge factor; of late Tesla has generally
| been 3rd or 4th (behind VW and one or both of Hyundai and
| Renault) in most markets.
| tpmx wrote:
| I think what you're actually describing is the largely fan
| activist/toy (Yes, Tesla Autopilot is a toy) attitude that's
| common to a certain kind of Tesla owners. This is embarassing
| and needs to go so that responsible adults can buy EVs too.
| arcticfox wrote:
| Calling Autopilot a toy seems quite exaggerated to me.
|
| I use Autopilot for ~80% of the miles I drive and I love it.
| I might think the same about Subaru or Cadillac or whatever
| if I had those, I'm not sure. But none of them are "toys".
| tpmx wrote:
| They way they market it is the reason it's a toy. This is
| not a novel argument in any way.
|
| In some circumstances it's a pretty good at L2 self
| driving. Until it isn't and it kills you if you don't pay
| attention.
| ajross wrote:
| Yeah. I literally just pulled the trigger and am waiting on
| delivery of a Model Y. The other vendors are at least playing
| in the same ballpark now. This car, and the Ford Mach-E (I
| refuse to call a 4-door crossover a "mustang") are both... very
| reasonable and justifiable purchases. Same price range. Similar
| (or at least close to) travel range. Similar performance.
|
| But they don't have a supercharger network. They won't have
| anything like Tesla's autopilot over the life of these units.
| The software glitz Tesla's app integration brings to the table
| isn't there, even if the fit and finish is probably better.
|
| It's great to see the traditional automakers getting close
| finally (almost a _DECADE_ after the Model S shipped!), but...
| they aren 't there yet. Unless you're in love with something
| very specific about these particular cars, Tesla remains the
| clear default choice.
| chodeboy wrote:
| Is this comment meant to be ironic? The removal of physical
| buttons a main cluster for the driver and the lack of a HUD are
| all terrible UX decisions. People believe it is all part of the
| grand "autonomous driving" meme but the reality is that all
| cars that have been purchased today are going to be used up
| long before level 4 autonomy is passed through the legislation.
| eropple wrote:
| n=1 of course, but to me Teslas aren't compelling until they 1)
| are a company I want to support, 2) building a vehicle I want,
| at 3) a price I want to pay. They fail #1 in a bunch of
| entertaining ways, they don't make a vehicle that satisfies #2
| either in features/size _or_ in the absence of misfeatures like
| the center console or the quasi-automated car crasher, and they
| 'd have to take a significant haircut to satisfy #3.
|
| Your mileage, of course, may vary, but right now Hyundai's Kona
| EV is pretty close to that in terms of
| features/size/battery/price, for me. It's the car I'm
| considering as a moderate size upgrade over my current car (a
| super-compact hatchback). Being electric is a significant plus
| to me, enough that I'm considering the upgrade even though I
| don't strictly _need_ it.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Your reasoning, in my head, lead me to buy a Renault Zoe, and
| I love it.
|
| Electric cars cannot conjuring to be luxury items if we want
| to convert the fleet. This is something that Tesla gets
| distracted on and misses: the Model 3 should have cost 50% of
| what it does (with the compromises to get there). The 3 is
| like a slightly less ostentatious S, which is a total market
| miss for me
| arcticfox wrote:
| A total market miss for you, maybe, but it is a total
| market hit for the actual market as demonstrated in sales
| figures.
| ajross wrote:
| > 1) are a company I want to support
|
| Really? I mean... as opposed to which automaker?
|
| Paraphrasing Matthew Yglesias[1]: Elon Musk is a raging
| narcissist asshole. But he built a three-quarter-trillion
| dollar company that makes _electric cars and solar panels_.
| That 's... objectively pretty good for all of us, right?
|
| [1] I think. Actually I can't completely remember where I
| read this but it definitely sounds like him.
| bpodgursky wrote:
| He did. Something like "bad tweeter, but good for the
| world".
| eropple wrote:
| Maybe I was unclear. It's not (just) that Elon Musk is a
| dirtbag who sics his literally millions of stans on random
| people, though that's part of it; I don't think the way
| that he, personally, identifies and treats people is a
| reasonable way for a person with any measure of power to
| act.
|
| _It 's also_ that I don't want to support an automaker
| that makes cars as poorly as Tesla does. Even to this day
| Tesla rolls cars out to customers with stuff as simple as
| body panels totally hosed. And Tesla then gives buyers the
| run-around when they seek redress. That's when they aren't
| double-charging folks and making getting _that_ redressed
| entirely too difficult, too.
|
| I didn't say they shouldn't exist. I said that I don't want
| to give them money. Tesla's shitty at making cars and
| shitty at customer service and I don't have a reason to buy
| from them either from the perspective of a purchaser or as
| somebody who tries to be at least reasonably ethical with
| the allocation of my money. As mentioned, my next car will
| likely be a Kona EV, where the body panels don't fall off
| and I have some trust in the warranty to actually be
| honored if I need something done.
| codezero wrote:
| I agree with your points in general, the main reason I don't
| want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me, across
| models, years, features, they just have a similar look and
| it's boring. I wish they also offered a wide range of body
| modifications to add some flavor and individuality to the
| car.
| mhh__ wrote:
| They really do look like the mid-range car in a video game.
| Not _bad_ , but just a bit too American and safe for my
| eyes.
|
| I'm curious what a Cybertruck will actually end up looking
| like since they seem to have actually gone for risky with
| it.
| codezero wrote:
| I love the cybertruck just because it's so absurd, but
| unfortunately I think the novelty will wear off the first
| time you see another cybertruck on the road.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| It's worth watching Sandy Munro's youtube channel to see
| what the justification for the Cybertruck body shape is.
| I changed my mind on them after watching it.
|
| One question I never see answered is how Teslas will deal
| with collision repair expense once the bugs are shaken
| out of the insurance and bodyshop system.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| >I don't want a Tesla is that they all look the same to me,
|
| In my eyes, practically all new cars look the same. The
| badging is the main way to tell them apart. On the other
| hand, I can tell a 1967 from a 1968 Camaro (hint: the
| running lights/turn signals in the grill are round vs. a
| rounded rectangle on non RS cars).
|
| But they always did. If you come to it with a fresh eye,
| most cars of a given class/size in any era are pretty
| similar.
| diggernet wrote:
| As a non-Tesla fan, I think the S has very nice lines. The
| X and 3 are ugly. As you say, they basically look like the
| same car, and yet are misproportioned in various ways. My
| theory is they spent a lot of designer time carefully
| iterating and refining the S, then fired all the designers.
| Then for X and 3, simply distorted the S design to wrap
| around a different car and called it good.
| matmatmatmat wrote:
| It's obviously very personal, but for me, electric alone is a
| big plus. I find it more enjoyable to drive: No transmission
| shifting, really smooth acceleration, quieter, and that
| instant-on torque is pretty nice, too.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| Another advantage in California (and likely other states) is
| that you get to avoid the enormous, rather useless, PITA
| called 'emissions inspection'.
| gaoshan wrote:
| This looks like the first vehicle of this sort to even approach
| affordable (with the $7,500 tax credit it will cost less than a
| high end Honda CR-V). The fact that it is also well regarded in
| the reviews I have seen make this the first electric vehicle I
| could consider buying myself. Excited that something as
| relatively attainable as this is reaching the market.
| golemiprague wrote:
| There are many Chinese menufacturers that are cheaper and
| already selling a lot of cars both in China and in less picky
| countries. I guess it will be a bit like iphone and android,
| the rich markets will go for the brand names while the rest of
| the world will just use something that is good enough and
| working.
|
| Also, most people don't need to travel long distances like in
| the US and many people around the world live in apartment
| building with no charging point. So small battery is an
| advantage, it covers most people needs, takes less time to
| charge and cheaper.
| dahfizz wrote:
| A base tesla model3 is cheaper than a base ID.4. It does look
| like the ID.4 will be cheaper after the tax credits, but not
| dramatically so.
| gaoshan wrote:
| Right but the model 3 is a sedan while the ID.4 is a compact
| SUV. Size wise this vehicle is more on par with the Tesla
| Model Y, not the 3.
| Hamuko wrote:
| It's not.
|
| The ID.4 is 4.6 metres long. the Model 3 is 4.7 metres
| long. The Model X is 5.0 metres long.
|
| The ID.4 is 1.85 metres wide, the Model 3 is 1.85 metres
| wide and the Model X is 2.00 metres wide.
|
| The ID.4 is 1.64 metres tall, the Model 3 is 1.44 metres
| and the Model X is 1.68 metres.
|
| The Model 3 has about 425 litres of trunk space, the ID.4
| has 540 litres of trunk space, and the Model X has like
| 1400 litres with five seats up (this was really hard to
| source). Seats folded the Model 3 has like 1140 litres, the
| ID.4 has like 1575 litres and the Model X has about 2000
| litres.
| gaoshan wrote:
| I meant the Y, not the X. Brain fart on my part. Sorry
| you did all the work to look into the details.
| clouddrover wrote:
| The ID.4 is similar in size to the Model Y. Diagrams and
| examples:
|
| - https://electrek.co/wp-
| content/uploads/sites/3/2020/09/VW-ID...
|
| - https://i.redd.it/x56klavmjmu61.jpg
|
| - https://imgur.com/kSmwxah
| xeromal wrote:
| Probably more of a Model Y than a Model X,
| Vespasian wrote:
| I guess the "slightly cheaper" part isn't a coincidence ;)
| Graffur wrote:
| Can someone living in an apartment with no charging point at
| their space get an electric car?
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Yes, but... I'd only do it if I had a DC rapid charger nearby
| (i.e. a supercharger if you buy a Tesla or a CCS if you buy a
| VW). And keep in mind you're going to pay more for the
| electricity at the DC rapid charger than you would at home--
| probably 2x or 3x the price per kWh.
| oblio wrote:
| Maybe? Realistically, I wouldn't get it. Wait 3-5 years, let
| them build out the charging networks, then buy one.
| beckman466 wrote:
| I'm waiting for the next scandal where we find out that inside
| their black box electric motor there is a little diesel motor
| that gets topped up at night by tiny garden gnomes.
| codetrotter wrote:
| I am never buying a Volkswagen after the Volkswagen Emissions
| Scandal in 2015.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal
| MattGaiser wrote:
| It was everyone's emission scandal.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal
| Invictus0 wrote:
| They've already paid over 30 billion to resolve the scandal,
| and they've pledged to invest 86 billion to develop electric
| vehicles. It's pointless to hold old grudges against companies
| when the people responsible for the scandal are gone and the
| company is now moving in the right direction.
| rorykoehler wrote:
| Then I guess you're never buying any European car ever again
| because it has since come to light that they were all at it. A
| bit misplaced given the electric push anyhow surely?
| rsynnott wrote:
| Not just European; practically everyone who made diesel cars
| was at it.
| Dopameaner wrote:
| I am curious. Do you happen to have a source for it?
| rsynnott wrote:
| List of the main ones who got in trouble here: https://en
| .wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_emissions_scandal#Fiat_...
|
| And it's not like this was the first time:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device
|
| It's really quite weird that it has become associated so
| closely with Volkswagen.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| I naturally assume that a lot of products with computers
| that are subject to government testing cheat in some way.
|
| Betcha that some Energy Star appliances can detect when
| they are being run through a test cycle.
| RaptorJ wrote:
| If you want to hold a long-term personal boycott against
| Volkswagon for immoral business practice, I assure you there
| are better reasons than the diesel emissions testing scandal.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| How many "cheating" diesel vehicles did Volkswagen sell in the
| USA?
|
| Not enough to matter, even if they had no emissions controls at
| all.
| axaxs wrote:
| I'm kicking around the idea of an electric car, but the ranges of
| these things just utterly disappoint me. With some companies
| offering, or planning to offer 500ish mile ranges, it would feel
| immediately outdated to me to throw 40k on something with a ~200
| mile range. Is battery tech that different between companies, is
| it cost prohibitive?
| stefan_ wrote:
| It's a huge cost and weight penalty that makes no sense 99% of
| the time.
|
| You seem to be stuck in a 2010 mindset - battery swapping in
| particular is a hilarious failure of an idea. Watch out for the
| world overtaking you.
| axaxs wrote:
| As someone who drives about 300 miles each way rather
| regularly, for me it -is- a real concern.
|
| Re: battery swapping, are you referring to the idea of like,
| hot swapping batteries on the road, or swapping to an
| upgraded battery at some point? I'm only specifically
| interested in the latter.
| shiftpgdn wrote:
| Look at an EV charge map and see what's along the route. I
| think the main difference ICE drivers miss is that if you
| have a home where you can level 2 charge you're leaving the
| house every day fully charged. I've only used a public
| charger once just to see if my account worked.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| 600 mile round trips are not a common use case. You are
| going to have to be patient with two full charging stops,
| or pay a premium.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| I agree.
|
| Honestly, I think if I were to drive a seriously long
| distance, I'd rent a car. Not only does it save wear 'n
| tear, but it's hard to find something that's more of a
| pain than a mechanical breakdown a long way from home
| with something you own.
| sparrc wrote:
| Probably makes sense for you to wait then, I think most people
| are happy with 200-250 miles (I certainly would be)
| datavirtue wrote:
| 250 sounds doable but not 200.
| MrRadar wrote:
| How often do you drive that far? The farthest I drive in one go
| is 350 miles and I only make that trip once every other year
| because it's exhausting. (If I could fly there I probably
| would.) A vehicle with a 100 mile range would cover pretty much
| all the other driving I do regularly.
| closeparen wrote:
| If I drive somewhere 2 hours away for the weekend, drive
| around town while I'm there, and then drive home, that's
| easily 350 miles between home-charging opportunities.
|
| With less range than that, EV charging becomes a constraint
| on which lodging I can choose or else how I'm going to spend
| ~hours of my vacation.
| dhdhhdd wrote:
| Funny. I would not fly for a trip of 350 miles. Being at the
| airport early, going through security, checking in luggage,
| all of those are unpredictable. Most of the time i leave home
| 3 hours before scheduled flight, it can take 1 hour to get to
| the airport (depending on traffic, usually 20 minutes), and
| then all of the above. 3 hours can get me almost 200 miles
| away, and then I'm left with 150 miles of driving.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| plus adding in (I think) the magic number is 400 miles when
| flying becomes safer than driving.
| weehoo wrote:
| NorCal to SoCal using regional airports (avoid sfo lax etc)
| can be less than 2 hours door to door. Online check in + no
| checked bag means you can show up at small airports 30
| minutes before takeoff. 50 minutes in the air, 10 minutes
| to deplane and leave the airport, and less than 15 minutes
| driving on either end and you have 2 hours door to door
| (and a lot more leg stretching than driving the 5).
| jackson1442 wrote:
| I'm curious... are you in the US? 350 miles is definitely
| within the realm of reason here-- a couple friends and I made
| an impulsive 250-something mile trip a couple weeks ago, and
| my family took a road trip to Florida over the past summer
| (normally we'd fly, but COVID)-- that trip was actually in an
| electric car and ended up being about 4 hours longer than it
| would be in a gas car.
|
| Depending on where you are, 350 miles might not even get you
| out of Texas!
| hodgesrm wrote:
| Actually not even half way, depending on origin and
| direction of travel. IIRC highway I-10 starts around
| milepost 810 on the Texas/Louisiana border. It's a big
| state.
|
| Off-topic but Texan inhabitants I know used to measure the
| length of the drives in number of beers consumed en route.
| Austin to Waco was a comparatively modest 5 beer trip, for
| example.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| 880 not 810. And surely given TX open container laws
| applying to a six pack even then they'd shotgun the sixth
| hodgesrm wrote:
| Thank you. I saw it only once, from the front seat of an
| 18-wheeler in 1979 while hitchhiking to Austin. It was
| impressive.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| I struggle to see how an electric car added four hours to a
| 250 mile trip. Unless you are counting both ways maybe?
| Even then, a 250 mile range EV would need one or two
| charging stops. Fast charging could just be 2-3 hours for
| both stops. At most.
| sumtechguy wrote:
| I think they meant it added 4 hours to the total one way
| trip. "a trip to florida". Electric is pretty good in
| many cases. But long road trips is not one of them. A
| full recharge is on the order of an 30-60 mins. You can
| refuel an ICE car in 5-10 mins and get the same range. 4
| stops in a long trip is not unheard of. It would put them
| in the middle of the united states somewhere going to
| florida.
|
| For local travel electric is decent and you can work
| around the 1 remaining issue for electric with some
| planning. For long road trip the refuel is the
| bottleneck. I think when electric cars can recharge a
| 300-400 range in 5-10 mins you will see people switch
| very quickly.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| That was the trip to Florida! It came out to about 1,250
| miles and was actually rather enjoyable in the Kia Niro
| EV. We used the Electrify America charger network the
| whole way there and back so each stop was 20-40 minutes,
| perfect to stretch your legs, use a nearby restroom, and
| grab a bite to eat. Admittedly it got to a bit of a lull
| at night since it was a 20-something hour trip.
|
| I think it would have been better to have a little bit
| more range so the stops are spaced farther apart, but
| charging was cheap and rather fast. The worst part was
| dealing with some of those chargers; there's usually at
| least one charger offline at EA stations and some charge
| really slow (which sucks when you pay by the minute) so
| there's a bit of trial-and-error.
|
| I honestly kinda liked these forced breaks... usually
| when we take a long road trip I feel stiff as a board
| when we arrive, but I felt fine when we got there.
| dm319 wrote:
| It's really the infrastructure rather than the range that needs
| to change (for most people). If high speed charging became
| ubiquitous, then you would only be stopping for 20 min every 2
| hours with current technology. Driving any more than that
| without a rest in my country can result in serious
| consequences.
|
| Add to that a fully charged vehicle every morning without
| having to make a visit to a petrol/gas station at any point in
| the week, and you can start to see how it can become more
| convenient.
|
| All of this depends on where you live and what you use your car
| for of course.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| > Driving any more than that without a rest in my country can
| result in serious consequences.
|
| Fascinating! We drive hours upon hours on the regular in
| Texas, everything is so spread apart. I take weekend trips to
| see my family every once in a while and it comes out to 3-4
| hours and I do that without really hesitating. One of my
| friends recently mentioned that one of their parents took a
| job that's 120 miles away from their house(!!) which, while
| it's definitely not "normal," certainly happens.
|
| If you don't mind my asking, whereabouts are you from?
| 01100011 wrote:
| I'll take a range of 80 miles. Enough for a couple round-trips
| to work with some reserve capacity. I'd pay $20k for a tiny car
| that provides me with that and I'd keep my gas vehicle for road
| trips. In order to replace my gas vehicle, I'm going to need
| 500 miles. That's enough to cover my trip to see family along
| with a little overhead to handle degredation over time and
| running the AC in summer. I don't mind stopping to quick charge
| for 10 minutes once during the trip, but beyond that I'll stick
| with gas.
| cbhl wrote:
| For an EV, maybe consider leasing.
|
| For a conventional car you'd sell after 5 years or drive it for
| ten to reduce TCO, so you'd want to compare that with the
| monthly cost for (say) a 36 mo lease.
| pilingual wrote:
| A used Premier Bolt with DC quick charging is a good compromise
| here.
|
| The car software is well done, and while it isn't updated often
| that just means you can expect less bugs than Tesla's
| constantly updated software.
|
| Downsides to the Bolt include OnStar, 3rd party quick chargers
| are often broken, and their app is absolute garbage. Other than
| that I think ~$15k for 200+ miles is amazing.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| What I don't think people understand is how quick these
| batteries can be charged. It is a plug in, get lunch, go to
| the bathroom, maybe stretch a bit, and get back on the road
| type of deal.
|
| How long does somebody really want to be driving/sitting in a
| car non-stop?
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| 10-14 hours per day for a road trip is typical for me, with
| a single 5 minute re-fueling stop each day.
| LeegleechN wrote:
| If your list includes "get lunch" it's not a quick charge.
| A 1 hour charge time can be planned around but it is still
| quite constraining.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| I always stop for lunch on long car trips. Sometimes I
| grab a snack at a gas station but I prefer a sit-down
| meal as a break from driving. That takes about an hour.
| Now in my EV, I still stop for lunch; I just do so where
| there's a Supercharger nearby. The only downside is that
| a Supercharger fillup only takes about 20 minutes and
| Tesla will start billing me if the car is full and taking
| up a parking place too long, so sometimes I have to dash
| out of the restaurant and move the car in the middle of
| lunch.
|
| The solution I've found for this problem is to grab lunch
| first, then go recharge at the Supercharger and sit in
| the comfortable climate-controlled car and either have a
| post-lunch quicknap or watch Netflix for 20 minutes.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| Meh. If I am driving several hundred miles in a fraction
| of a day, I am going to be patient and grateful. Doing
| that on a bike, on horseback, or on foot would be
| absolutely grueling and take several days or weeks.
| [deleted]
| notyourday wrote:
| > What I don't think people understand is how quick these
| batteries can be charged. It is a plug in, get lunch, go to
| the bathroom, maybe stretch a bit, and get back on the road
| type of deal.
|
| I'm guessing you have never been at a busy highway gas
| station? It is not uncommon to wait for 10-20 minutes at a
| 20 pump station on a turnpike where cars gas up in 3-4
| minutes. Until the charging infrastructure is done to at
| least half of the current gas stations level mass adoption
| of EV is a pipe dream.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Just because you can doesn't mean you _should_. DC high
| current charging is pretty rough on the expected lifetime
| of that pack.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| The damage caused by DC charging is not huge. If you
| supercharged your car every day in lieu of home charging
| (i.e. because you can't home charge), then the effect is
| bigger, but Tesla superchargers (can't speak for the
| others) are very careful about how much charge they dump
| into the battery at any particular instant given the
| battery's current state of charge, temperature, age, etc.
| They do this specifically to preserve the health of the
| battery.
|
| https://teslatap.com/articles/supercharger-superguide/
| black_puppydog wrote:
| I think if there was a perspective to upgrade to a more modern
| battery later on, that would make a huge difference for these
| decisions.
|
| I wonder how much the actual battery contributes to the
| production costs. It can't be trivial, right?
| Saris wrote:
| >I wonder how much the actual battery contributes to the
| production costs. It can't be trivial, right?
|
| I would think it's a good portion, at say $200 per kWh of
| battery a 50kWh pack is $10k.
| axaxs wrote:
| Absolutely. If the battery were easily swappable, either by
| me or a low cost service center, AND a promise of bigger
| batteries was made, I'd probably bite. But as it sits, it
| seems like batteries are very central to the car and rather
| cost prohibitive to swap out.
| ortusdux wrote:
| After swearing up and down that they would never do battery
| swaps, Tesla demonstrated a 90 second swap back in 2012.
| They held a few events in California to get enough swaps to
| meet ZEV benchmarks and get nearly $300mil. When they were
| called out they removed any reference to the program and
| pretended like it never happened.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20140331102655/http://www.tesla
| m...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla,_Inc.#Controversies
| munk-a wrote:
| Battery swaps are incredibly costly for the company -
| those units generally cost more than 10k - sometimes as
| high as 20k. Given that they are the majority of the cost
| of the vehicle it's not a great business proposition for
| manufacturers to offer to replace a battery for anything
| less than the majority of the cost of a new vehicle which
| consumers simply won't go for.
| freeone3000 wrote:
| You get the uncharged battery back, though, which you can
| then charge and give to another person. It's like a
| propane cylinder swap.
| tln wrote:
| ...just 500 times more expensive.
|
| Propane capacity isn't going to go down as the tanks age;
| losing 10% when swapping in an older battery could really
| suck.
| jgalt212 wrote:
| IIRC, when Formula E used to have pit stops, the driver
| would enter a new car rather than swapping out or charging
| batteries.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| Do you have to buy a "Sport Utility Vehicle"? Sedans like the
| Model 3 have a higher range.
| SyzygistSix wrote:
| I like cargo space and don't like to bottom out on dirt roads
| or my driveway (also a dirt road). Although I doubt the ID.4
| has enough ground clearance for me.
|
| edit: looks like it has 8.2 inches of ground clearance, so
| that would be fine. Too bad it's ugly but oh well. Cars don't
| have to be pretty.
| axaxs wrote:
| Unfortunately, I do. I am very tall with bad knees and while
| some sedans fit me fine, getting in and out of them is
| excruciating. About the smallest thing I've been comfortable
| with is a Chevy Equinox, to give you a size comparison. It's
| more about the ride height than the size of the vehicle, but
| they seem to go hand in hand.
| CameronNemo wrote:
| That is unfortunate. Driving extended periods in a cramped
| car is definitely a pain. Hopefully you are being
| compensated appropriately for these arduous trips.
| rorykoehler wrote:
| I'm not informed but it seems all the high range cars are also
| the expensive ones. Mercedes EQS and Tesla Model S for example.
| axaxs wrote:
| Don't forget the higher end monstrosity of a cybertruck.
|
| Looks aside, something like that would interest me but I
| don't need the extras. I don't need extra motors and 4wd. Why
| not just offer the base version with the bigger battery?
| grecy wrote:
| > _Don 't forget the higher end_
|
| Cybertruck will have 250+ miles of range for $39,900, which
| is the same as the ID.4 this article is about.
|
| what about it is "higher end"?
| axaxs wrote:
| There are three models of cybertruck. The most expensive,
| 70k version, has a 500 mi range. That's what I was
| referring to as higher end.
| valine wrote:
| I believe the additional motors actually contribute to the
| longer range. The motors can be individually optimized for
| different speeds, ie you can have one motor be optimized
| for the highway and the other for low speeds.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| VW is pretty far behind Tesla in battery technology.[0] Still,
| this seems like a good car for a large number of drivers. The
| VW charging network is building out rapidly (I've noticed that
| VW's chargers are largely in the same locations as Tesla's
| superchargers. Wonder why?)
|
| The Tesla Model Y Long Range is rated at 326 miles and in my
| experience that's accurate and completely practical.
|
| As to your criterion of "500ish" miles, that's unrealistic even
| for most ICE cars. Granted gas stations are more common than EV
| charging stations but you also cannot recharge your ICE car at
| home or at your hotel or at an RV park.
|
| Owning an EV requires a mindset switch; if you approach the EV
| purchase decision from the ICE mindset and all you see is "OMG
| the range is too low and what happens if I can't find a
| charger?" then you're probably not ready for EV ownership. If,
| OTOH you are able to switch to a mindset where you keep your
| energy status in the back of your mind (and an EV car helps you
| with this a great deal) then you might be ready.
|
| For me this mindset switch was easy since I've been RV camping
| for decades; that's another lifestyle where thinking about such
| things as energy, water, and waste status are necessary. It's
| not difficult; it's just different. It requires an awareness
| that assumptions of infinite sources (of water, energy, etc.)
| and infinite sinks (for waste disposal) are incorrect, and now
| you must manage them actively.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx1O4kvjn0U
| varjag wrote:
| ID4 has 310 miles on its 77KWh, I dunno what "pretty far
| behind" here is supposed to mean. It's not like Tesla uses
| some hitherto unknown cell technology...
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| Also makes no sense to me. The advantage of tesla is not
| the battery capacity but the more efficient powertrain /
| drag coefficient. Teslas need a lot less energy in
| comparison.
| rsynnott wrote:
| "Has not been blessed by St Elon of Car", I assume.
|
| In reality, while many manufacturers have grandiose claims
| of amazing magical batteries Any Day Now (TM) the battery
| tech being used in real life cars that you can buy today is
| all fairly similar.
| admax88q wrote:
| > If, OTOH you are able to switch to a mindset where you keep
| your energy status in the back of your mind (and an EV car
| helps you with this a great deal) then you might be ready.
|
| Honestly that's a huge turn off for me. I have enough things
| on the back of my mind, tracking my "energy status" would
| have a significant opportunity cost by displacing more
| productive things.
| rconti wrote:
| I also track my fuel range in the back of my head when
| driving my ICE vehicles.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| I don't. I drive it until it beeps at me that it's low on
| fuel (typically at the 900 km mark, after which I still
| have 100 km reserve). Then I fill up at the next service
| station I happen to come across and pump $50 of fuel into
| the tank in 2-3 minutes. I never seek out a service
| station. For this reason, ICE cars effectively have
| infinite range.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Understandable, but with governments banning new combustion
| vehicle sales, the electric transition and need to shift
| how vehicles are used will occur eventually. I don't think
| EVs will reach the exact UX of combustion vehicles, nor do
| they have to (most charging can occur at home at night,
| people rarely road trip and need to charge from 0 to 100
| SOC in 5 minutes), but people will have to be accepting
| that the experience might be different than they're use to.
|
| Something to keep in mind is that electricity is ubiquitous
| in the first world, and the number and density of EV
| chargers will only increase over time.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-
| out_of_fossil_fuel_vehic...
| admax88q wrote:
| Totally, I definitely intend for my next vehicle to be
| electric despite my naysaying.
|
| I wish that EV vendors would let you "test drive" a
| vehicle over the course of a week. It's hard to imagine
| what your day to day charging experience would be by just
| driving around for an hour.
|
| For most people, myself included, I bet the charging will
| actually be a non issue, probably even more convenient
| than gas, but it still feels like a big leap to take.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| I used Turo.com to rent a Model S for several days in
| SoCal a couple of years ago, and took it for long drives
| that required supercharging. I'd probably never have
| bought a Tesla otherwise.
|
| Turo is a more expensive than an ordinary rental car
| because not only are Teslas expensive, but with Turo you
| really should buy the insurance. (I'd read that personal
| insurance won't cover you in a Turo car like it will in a
| normal rental. Haven't verified this. Decided not to risk
| it.) But even with the expense it was a good way for me
| to get an idea of what Tesla ownership was like.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I agree with you entirely. My Model S has spent more time
| lent out to friends, family, and others so they can have
| the experience you describe. Manufacturers must improve
| on this at scale, as individual efforts alone will be
| insufficient.
|
| Definitely a complex inflection point we're at, but I
| have hope!
|
| (disclosure: I _do not_ recommend buying a Tesla
| currently due to their QC and support failings).
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| I'm currently assuming that the inertia is towards EVs.
| Apply enough engineering money and economy of scale and
| it becomes more and more reasonable.
|
| Honestly, that's the only type of new car I would buy at
| this point. I think we are hitting peak ICE complexity at
| this point and would just as soon not be involved with
| the mechanical magic that's been introduced to achieve
| that last bit of marginal improvement with emissions or
| mileage.
| datavirtue wrote:
| It is extremely common to fill up any ICE and get nearly 500
| miles. It's almost like they sized the tanks to that
| standard.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| I can get that in my diesel pickup not towing (19 mpg and
| 30 gallons) but no car I've ever owned can get 500 miles
| from a tank of gas.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| A diesel mk4 VW Jetta/Golf easily gets 1000 km (620
| miles) on the highway. Those cars were extremely common
| in NA at one point.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Of the 8 cars I've owned so far, only one could do over
| 800km reliably with one tank (VW Passat Diesel). Most could
| handle around 500-600km (375-ish max).
|
| My current EV can do around 280-300km in one go and it
| hasn't limited me once. Back seat needs a pee-break after
| 200-250km anyway =)
| merb wrote:
| why does it says that it launches?! It launched last
| december/this years january in europe. heck, they even delivered
| some of them already. did it launch that late in usa? I tought it
| should launch in february in the usa.
| brokenintuition wrote:
| I think deliveries from reservations in the US started in
| March. I bought one a few weeks ago because some dealers have
| gotten a few that weren't reserved, but for the most part it's
| still very limited supply in the US.
| merb wrote:
| > very limited supply in the US
|
| haha, thats for every car in the world ;-) in germany our
| e-up took way over a year to deliver.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| I feel like the prices on electric vehicles are starting to
| become their biggest hurdle (instead of range, availability, or
| charging which are solved enough).
|
| If you're from California or New York, I'm sure $40K starting for
| this or a Model Y seems complexly within your means, but there's
| a large chunk of the US (by population AND land) where <$20K new
| sedans remain popular and "nicer" vehicles are still in the
| $20-$30K range (and we're talking about SUVs and other family
| sized vehicles rather than small sedans).
|
| People love to spam $40K US "average" while entirely ignoring
| that the average is a highly abusive figure containing $80K+
| trucks and luxury vehicles, as well as a few $15-32K vehicles
| dragging that figure down. It doesn't really reflect anything
| useful.
|
| Go look at this map[0]. How many of "the most popular car by
| state" are $40K? Zero. But yet an electric is going to replace a
| $21K Honda Civic by 2025? Really?
|
| And I'm not dumping on the manufacturers here: From what I
| understand batteries remain the lion's share of an electric
| vehicle's total production cost (I've heard as much as
| $16K/vehicle). So this isn't profiteering, this is the tech not
| yet being ready price-wise for the mass adoption everyone seems
| to believe will come soon. Worse still as electric vehicles
| become more popular the rare earth metals that seemingly remain
| popular within the batteries may increase in cost offsetting our
| future reductions.
|
| To be clear: I want to own an electric vehicle. I'd trade my
| current Subaru Outback ($27K) in tomorrow if I could buy a
| comparable electric. But those start in the $40K range (and
| honestly the cheapest trim is just a hero model, they don't
| intend to sell many, and blackmail buyers with missing basic
| features accordingly).
|
| [0] https://insurify.com/insights/most-popular-cars-by-
| state-202...
| blake1 wrote:
| Batteries are quite likely to continue to decrease.[1] Most
| industrial processes follow a learning curve inverse to the
| cumulative units produced. And it makes sense: each efficiency
| improvement has a fixed cost, and only gets made if enough
| units get shipped.
|
| Estimates I have seen are that LI is on a 13% annual decrease,
| which means that your $16k pack will be $4.5k by 2030.
|
| By then, I would bet that the Honda Civic EV is cheaper than
| the Honda Civic ICE. In addition to the batter, there are fewer
| moving parts and simpler assembly, which means less labor; this
| type of manufacturing has barely started to scale up. Not
| guaranteed, but my estimates might turn out to be conservative.
|
| And as for rare earths: as demand increases, it becomes
| increasingly profitable to extract marginal deposits. That's
| what fracking is, after all.
|
| [1] https://www.mdpi.com/1996-1073/13/20/5276/pdf
| CuriousSkeptic wrote:
| I'm not sure the larger batteries are even necessary.
|
| With an EV you can start each day fully charged. You just need
| enough battery to handle your daily commute and the few
| errands.
|
| What's missing is something to handle those few occasions when
| you need to drive that extra distance. It seems kind of silly
| to try and cram that extra flexibility into the same vehicle.
| Tagbert wrote:
| It's partly about convincing new buyers to be comfortable
| with them. Buyers are not fully rational and will often
| overestimate their need for long range and will overvalue the
| anxiety of needing to charge. Short range cars are seen as to
| much risk even if the price is lower.
|
| Once enough people have some experience with EVs and the
| market grows enough, there will be more interest and a demand
| for cars with a limited range at a cheaper price point.
| outworlder wrote:
| > I'm not sure the larger batteries are even necessary.
|
| They are not. What's needed is expansion of the
| infrastructure. And that's not even about quick chargers. In
| cities you don't need them. What you need is standard level 2
| chargers wherever you may want to go. Work, school, shopping,
| movie theaters, whatever. Most vehicles spend most of their
| day parked somewhere. They should be charging then.
|
| Larger batteries are only really going to be needed in very
| remote regions.
| elihu wrote:
| Big batteries would be nice for long trips. I'm working on
| an EV conversion right now that ought to get me a hundred
| miles of range when I'm done, which is good enough for
| about 98% of my regular driving. (Getting more range with a
| conversion can be tricky, as it would mean adding a lot of
| weight to the vehicle.) Sometimes it's nice to go to the
| beach, though... 100 miles would get me to the beach, but
| it's not enough get back. Most of the places I'd want to
| park my car for a day at the beach don't have chargers. And
| quick charging isn't going to be an option.
|
| I hope eventually we get to point where we start adding
| electrification to major highways, so that vehicles don't
| even have to stop to charge. Then range will be much less
| of an issue.
| freeflight wrote:
| _> What's missing is something to handle those few occasions
| when you need to drive that extra distance. It seems kind of
| silly to try and cram that extra flexibility into the same
| vehicle._
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if rental battery trailers become a
| big thing due to that.
|
| When using the EV for every-day stuff the internal batteries
| will be enough. Going on a long trip? Add a battery trailer
| for more range and extra cargo/baggage space.
| flabbergasted wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised if UHaul started this as a service.
| Seems like a perfect fit to me.
| grecy wrote:
| Average price of new cars purchases in the USA crossed $40k for
| the first time in 2020 [1]. So I don't think it's that
| outrageous.
|
| [1] https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/average-new-car-
| price-202...
| jhgb wrote:
| > Worse still as electric vehicles become more popular the rare
| earth metals that seemingly remain popular within the batteries
| may increase in cost offsetting our future reductions.
|
| Rare earths are only used in NiMH batteries. Some hybrids have
| those, but probably not this vehicle.
| cjblomqvist wrote:
| The "problem" in the US is the cheap gas, at least compared to
| EU. Taxing gas according to the CO2 cost would make it
| drastically different in TCO.
| akomtu wrote:
| Half of the US population lives paycheck to paycheck and they
| need cars. I'm not sure their minimum wage can afford them
| carbon taxes.
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| The US is far richer than Europe, with an average GDP per
| capita of over 10000$ higher than most western European
| countries. Alabama is about as rich as Germany, for
| instance. So if Europe can do it, then the US could easily
| do it.
| bananabreakfast wrote:
| Not sure that matters when their house is burning down in
| the much more common forest fires or flooding due to more
| extreme storms.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| The optimal solution for that is better city and regional
| planning so waitresses and the like can find low cost
| housing near work and for it to be generally viable to make
| life work without a car.
| wayanon wrote:
| It's weird because I associate car ownership with wealth!
| I'm in my 40s in London in the UK earning an ok salary and
| neither me nor many of many friends have a car.
| philk10 wrote:
| London has the Tube and buses and bike lanes - try living
| in the US without a car... ( ex-pat Brit now in the US)
| theshrike79 wrote:
| In the US people may be homeless, but they'll still have
| a car. It's THAT essential to living...
| holtalanm wrote:
| where I live, having reliable transportation (i.e. owning
| a car) is pretty much a job requirement wherever you
| work.
|
| a lot of people don't exactly understand just how
| _sprawling_ the US is.
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| Outside of the big cities in England almost everyone has
| a car too. Most of the US is like that.
| 5etho wrote:
| yet in rular Poland, only rich people (or disabled,
| elderly, wihout driver license, who have no other choice)
| can live comfortably without car
| akomtu wrote:
| I don't know much about London, but in the US the
| arrangement is that expensive cities provide work and
| hoards of minimum wage workers live in exurbs 1-2 hours
| away from those cities. They have to wake up at 6 am,
| spend an hour or more in atrocious traffic on a highway
| with other minimum wage workers, then do the same in the
| reverse at the end of the day. On a bus it would take 2x
| longer. They don't have a choice. Now if you force them
| to swap their rusty gas cars for ev ones (beware, 3k usd
| for them is a massive expense) and force them to spend 1
| hour a day recharging those ev cars, the US economy would
| stall as the wealthy hipsters in the cities won't do the
| service jobs.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Just one point of contention here:
|
| You don't "spend" time recharging an EV unless your one-
| way trip is longer than the maximum range.
|
| You get where you're going, plug in and come back to more
| power than you had before you left.
| dojomouse wrote:
| Do what Canada does; add a carbon tax and distribute the
| proceeds. This is generally a progressive tax scheme so low
| income people end up with MORE money.
| nawitus wrote:
| Poorer countries in Europe tax fuel more. If you raise fuel
| tax, people will find ways to buy less fuel. Generally this
| means more efficient (often smaller) cars, and perhaps
| prioritizing living more near to jobs etc.
|
| The main problem is that fuel tax should be increased
| slowly so people can change their consumption accordingly.
| UnpossibleJim wrote:
| The difference is, even the poorer countries in Europe
| have a better bus and train system than the majority of
| America. Now, granted, America is much larger so I hate
| these comparisons. Many European countries are the size
| of an American state, but compare any US state and the
| bus and train system will almost certainly pale in
| comparison.
|
| I'm all for a fuel tax, but I'm also a huge proponent for
| a decent alternative to the single car transport system
| that America is so very reliant upon. People talk about
| biking, but being able to bike to a decent and available
| transit station would be a dream come true to a huge
| swath of the American population.
|
| /end rant
| alkonaut wrote:
| So change fuel/carbon taxes not just slow enough for
| people to adapt but for infrastructure to adapt.
| akomtu wrote:
| That's like reducing the oxygen level for lab rats to see
| how they would adapt. These people have 500 bucks in
| savings and no health insurance.
| kajecounterhack wrote:
| New prices are quite prohibitive but the state of things
| actually isn't the worst for used EVs if you can stomach low
| range. My family does a two-car approach:
|
| 1. Hybrid SUV for actually getting places and moving things
|
| 2. ~$4k a used 2013 Smart car. ~45 mile range is good enough
| for short commute, grocery runs, etc. Charge at home or at work
| (we have the uncommon situation of no charging at home since we
| live in a condo complex, and free charging at work).
|
| $4k is like the price of a nice electric bike. We didn't do any
| maintenance to the car for 3 years (we probably should replace
| the brake pads). It's working just fine and is an incredible
| workhorse for the price.
| cblconfederate wrote:
| This is probably going to be the most common combination. EVs
| really shouldn't be cars, they can have so many form factors
| to fit every lifestyle. For long travel or nature, EVs are
| overkill
| usaphp wrote:
| $4k for a 2013 smart? You got some amazing deal, they usually
| sell for twice that amount. Hard to find any decent one for
| less than $7-8k
| [deleted]
| cptskippy wrote:
| For $7-8K you can get a Nissan Leaf in excellent condition
| with a 75-100mi range.
| listic wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_electric_drive ?
| brigade wrote:
| That link must include new registrations for used cars, and
| exclude trucks. After all, the Focus was discontinued in 2019.
|
| All the manufacturers report new US car sales, and except for
| the RAV4, in 2019 the cars on the list were outsold _within
| their their own brand_ by cars not on the list.
|
| For instance, the Nissan sold 209k Altimas in 2019 to 350k
| Rogues, or Honda sold 267k Accords and 325k Civics to 384k CR-
| Vs, or Chevy sold 132k Malibus and 45k Impalas to 575k
| Silverados, or Ford sold a mere 12k Focuses to 898k F-series
| (don't see a further breakdown...)
| tzs wrote:
| I'd definitely like my next car to be electric, and to be an
| SUV, and I don't want it to be cost much more than a fairly
| basic configured Honda CR-V. 2021 CR-Vs start at about $26k.
|
| My current car is a 2006 CR-V with about 80k miles on it. It's
| in good shape and I drive less than 1200 miles/year so should
| be able to stick with it it for a long time.
|
| My plan is to keep driving my CR-V until:
|
| (1) an electric SUV comparable in price and features to the
| then current basic CR-V becomes available and switch to that,
| or
|
| (2) rules change to prevent future sales of new ICE cars, in
| which case I'll decide if I'm OK with an electric non-SUV. If I
| am, I'll switch. If not, I'll buy a new ICE CR-V (or Hybrid
| CR-V if that is still only about 20% more expensive than the
| base ICE model like it is now), which should be able to last me
| for the rest of my life, or
|
| (3) the CR-V actually needs to be replaced, in which case I'll
| do the same as in #2.
| rsynnott wrote:
| At 1200 miles a year, you should possibly question whether
| you need a car at all, tbh. Renting when you need one might
| work out cheaper.
| Elora wrote:
| 1200 miles/year is an atypical use case for a vehicle in the
| US and your options can be anything, including many older
| cars, and also possibly human-powered transport and/or
| electric-powered scooters/bikes/skateboards. We have a '12
| CR-V w/ 120k miles which right now is doing standby vehicle
| duty, our Tesla Model 3 takes all the miles (15-20k/year).
| rsynnott wrote:
| > but there's a large chunk of the US (by population AND land)
| where <$20K new sedans remain popular and "nicer" vehicles are
| still in the $20-$30K range
|
| A Dacia Spring seems to be generally in the 10-15k EUR range
| after incentives, in most countries. A Renault Zoe is about
| 20-25k.
|
| The US does seem underserved in terms of low-end electric cars,
| tho.
| gaoshan wrote:
| The Volkswagon ID.4 will be, after the $7,500 credit, in the
| low 30's. Still not cheap but much better than any other
| similarly spec'ed vehicle.
| brianwawok wrote:
| And consider it saving 10k in gas over 5-6 years, it's pretty
| close to Honda Civic price parity. Maybe not 100% there, but
| getting close!
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| The best-selling[1] vehicle in America, the Ford F-150, had an
| average sale price of $47,174 in 2018[2]. I'm sure it's only
| gone up since.
|
| Also, the latest version of the map you shared shows the F-150
| being the most popular vehicle in 18 states, none of which are
| California or New York: https://insurify.com/insights/most-
| popular-cars-in-america-2...
|
| ---
|
| [1] https://www.autobytel.com/ford/f-150/car-buying-
| guides/why-t...
|
| [2] https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a32945300/ford-
| averages...
| s0rce wrote:
| Could most of those be base model work trucks with the
| average price heavily skewed by the luxury pickup market.
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| According to AutoWeek, who I expect knows of what it
| speaks,
|
| "The most popular model [of the Ford F-150] is the
| SuperCrew XLT with the 302A package...That pickup, upgraded
| to 4X4 and the 6.5 foot bed, comes out to $50,020."
|
| https://www.autoweek.com/news/trucks/a33584476/this-is-
| how-y...
| foepys wrote:
| This shouldn't surprise anybody. Those are used for work like
| farms and are tax deductible.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| I'd bet a ton that most F150s never see dirt. I'd also bet
| that most F150s see >5 year car loans.
| acomjean wrote:
| F150 was the minimum truck when I worked in landfill
| construction in the Northeast and NY. They're decent on
| the site dirt roads. But they ride hard and I found the
| handling on the road pretty bad.
|
| They're not popular here. Except for those that need
| them. (Maybe RWD and light tail and snow.. ). SUVs are it
| here.
|
| I was surprised how much of the rest of the rural US uses
| trucks as a day to day vehicle.
| numo16 wrote:
| I would side with you on this bet. Lots of brodozer and
| parking lot princess F-150s up here in Michigan suburbs.
| abfan1127 wrote:
| tons of pavement princesses here in AZ.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| Anyone who's driven on a highway in Texas knows this is
| likely untrue, at least for most F150 owners. I see a
| shocking number of pristine, washed and waxed F150s every
| single day when I'm driving. Those and Ram 1500s dominate
| the roads here.
|
| I don't even live in a rural area. I live in DFW.
| hourislate wrote:
| I live in DFW also and you are correct. I'd take a guess
| that 80% of F150 owners live in a quiet suburban
| neighborhood and have never used the truck bed. What
| really is insane is the folks like a neighbor down the
| street who has an F250 Diesel Monster truck that has
| never seen any off road action except the time he drove
| on his grass backing out of the driveway. Same with all
| the Jeeps with oversized tires and 12k in tricked out off
| road gear, driven by soccer moms. I suppose it's some
| kind of status symbol like all the old farts buying
| Harley's and pretending they are some kind of
| bikers...shame they destroyed the brand.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > like all the old farts buying Harley's and pretending
| they are some kind of bikers...shame they destroyed the
| brand
|
| Actually, they kept the brand alive by buying the
| product.
|
| Without those people they'd have died long ago.
| aaronbrethorst wrote:
| Sounds kind of like Leica to me: orthodontists running
| around Africa or Asia pretending to be Steve McCurry with
| $11,000 'Safari' cameras destroyed the brand for me.
| Yeah, sure, the company is still technically alive, but
| at what cost?
|
| (and lest you think I'm joking:
| https://www.dpreview.com/news/9864312105/leica-releases-
| limi...)
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| You're kidding yourself if you think most of the buyers for
| these actually need a pickup truck.
|
| I lived in Bama for a couple years and everybody and their
| brother had a pickup.
| isoprophlex wrote:
| Of course the most common price is just as useless as the
| mean price when describing this highly skewed distribution.
|
| Its the median price that the average American is willing to
| pat that is the most informative metric here.
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| > From what I understand batteries remain the lion's share of
| an electric vehicle's total production cost (I've heard as much
| as $16K/vehicle).
|
| I've seen this same figure for current EVs. But it's important
| to look at the trend. Lithium-ion battery prices have decreased
| by 97% since their introduction in 1991. The price decrease
| curve is amazing [0]. Teslas were at least $80K in 2015; today
| a Tesla with similar range (Model 3) can be had for $40K. That
| decrease is largely the result of Tesla and Panasonic improving
| battery energy density and battery production economies of
| scale. There is every reason to believe this trend will
| continue, especially if solid-state batteries can be scaled up.
|
| As for rare-earth metals, cobalt is the worst one w.r.t. rarity
| and human labor. Tesla's next generation of batteries (starting
| in late 2021) eliminate cobalt and substitute nickel and
| manganese, which are far more plentiful and don't require child
| labor.
|
| Not trying to sanctify Tesla here; I just follow them more
| closely than other battery manufacturers. The others are
| probably working toward similar goals.
|
| https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2021/EE/D0EE0...
| mullingitover wrote:
| > If you're from California or New York, I'm sure $40K starting
| for this or a Model Y seems complexly within your means
|
| Not for regular working class people, far from it. A car that
| costs more than your gross annual wages isn't anywhere close to
| being within your means.
|
| Los Angeles median income in 2019: 28,072 USD
|
| NYC: 32,320 USD
|
| Nearly half of Los Angeles residents pay more than 50% of their
| income on rent[1].
|
| In NYC, 42% of renters pay over 30% of their income on rent,
| 23% pay more than 50% of their income.[2]
|
| [1] https://news.usc.edu/179928/los-angeles-rent-burdened-
| househ....
|
| [2] https://wherewelive.cityofnewyork.us/explore-data/housing-
| co....
| elihu wrote:
| > Worse still as electric vehicles become more popular the rare
| earth metals that seemingly remain popular within the batteries
| may increase in cost offsetting our future reductions.
|
| That's one reason I'm hoping that we start seeing more lithium
| iron phosphate (LFP) cells in mid-range cars, as they don't
| require nickel or cobalt. (They still require lithium, which is
| starting to approach where nickel and cobalt prices per ton
| are, but I'd rather deal with one bottleneck resource mostly
| mined in Australia versus 3 bottleneck resources, one of which
| is primarily sourced from Congo.)
| fassssst wrote:
| Yea, I had a ID.4 pre-ordered but canceled it after I realized
| how absurd the price is. I bought a utility e-bike instead and
| that was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made. I
| barely use my car anymore and biking is way more fun and
| greener than any car.
| cjohansson wrote:
| Regular bikes have the benefit that they improve your health,
| it's not exhaustive once you get a better stamina. E-bikes
| are a bad product I think in todays society
| acomjean wrote:
| I have switched from a normal bike to an ebike. My yearly
| mileage went from 1000 to 1800. I still use my old non
| powered bike for short trips.
|
| I'll use the ebike when I'm tired so I end up using it a
| lot more.
|
| You can turn them off the power then your riding around
| with 30 extra pounds if you need more workout...
| fassssst wrote:
| You can control the amount of pedal assist. My heart rate
| still hits about what it does for a light jog. I'm losing
| weight too, all without really breaking a sweat.
| shafyy wrote:
| E-bikes are not bad at all. For a lot of people normal
| bikes are not an option because they are lazy or don't have
| the physical fitness. It's much better if they get e-bikes
| instead of cars for everyone involved.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| You get just as much exercise with an electric bike--you
| just go faster, and changes in grade are effectively
| flattened.
| trevortheblack wrote:
| I'm looking to do a similar thing. What was the e-bike you
| ultimately ended up getting?
| rednerrus wrote:
| I bought the Radwagon and it's been amazing! Pretty much a
| second car for my family.
| fassssst wrote:
| RadRunner Plus with the large basket accessory and their
| dog carrier.
| lttlrck wrote:
| I was thinking about an ID.Buzz until I took my Golf to a
| dealer for a 20K service. Then they tried to sell me tires
| for 4 x the price of Discount Tire - the tires on the car are
| absolutely fine - almost 1/4". Then they decided not to
| rotate my tires due to "tire condition" - to spite me? - and
| nickel and dimed me on a pair of wipers.
|
| I don't want to renew my relationship with a dealer.
| Especially not with an electric car where I really would be
| beholden to them until the independent shops catch up - if
| they ever do.
| rubicon33 wrote:
| I'll never understand this. You presumably are biking on the
| street, at best in a bike lane, at worst in the shoulder, and
| are placing so much confidence in other people to not hit
| you.
|
| Given how SHIT other people are at driving, I have no desire
| whatsoever to be on a bicycle in front of them.
| JamilD wrote:
| I wonder how we escape this trap.
|
| Cars are 1-2 ton machines that can kill you as a cyclist or
| pedestrian, and humans are awful at operating them. The
| solution is therefore apparently to put more of those
| machines on the road (for self-protection) instead of
| reducing the risk altogether?
| shafyy wrote:
| It's important that cities build great biking
| infrastructure to alleviate this problem.
|
| At the same time, this is used by a lot of people as an
| excuse to not get a bike. In fact, it's not that dangerous
| as you make it out to be as is proven by statistics I guess
| (didn't look them up)
| analog31 wrote:
| I'm a cyclist, and use my bike to get around town, though I
| also own a car. Of course I can't completely dismiss your
| sentiment.
|
| Possibly my most important safety measure is route choice.
| The streets that I ride on have very little car traffic.
| This includes separated bike paths, but also quiet
| neighborhood streets. Fortunately this is possible in the
| town where I live. In decades of riding, I've never
| experienced a collision with a car, and my near-misses have
| been rare.
| anon776 wrote:
| This 100%. When I bike to work I take a route that is 2
| miles longer than when I drive. Just to avoid a few left
| turns and a few busy roads witch sketchy bike lanes. Now
| that I have an e-bike the commute is actually really fun
| and I get to work with energy.
| [deleted]
| Koshkin wrote:
| Yeah, California is one of the very few places on Earth where
| you can do that.
| mikestew wrote:
| Do what? Use a bicycle for tasks many use a car for? If my
| guess is correct, I have to ask why you think California is
| unique in that respect given the absolutely huge set of
| data to the contrary? I mean, you _have_ heard of the
| Netherlands, right?
|
| Of course, if my guess is wrong, ignore me. And be more
| clear next time. :-)
| Armisael16 wrote:
| Literally every other person responding figured out that
| they were talking about weather, so I don't think they
| had issues with clarity.
| Tepix wrote:
| and many places in Europe, Asia, ...
| grecy wrote:
| I lived in the Yukon, Canada for 4 years, and rode my bike
| 365 days a year.
|
| Yes, even in -40 and beyond temperatures I rode. In fact,
| Whitehorse has the highest rate of bike ridership in
| Canada!
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| This is a bad statement. California isn't even bike
| friendly. The Netherlands or Denmark, or hell, Germany are
| all VASTLY more bike friendly than California.
| RamRodification wrote:
| I think you are being a bit overly negative but you do have
| a point. Where I live (northern Europe) I could never get
| by with any kind of "open" vehicle (i need a roof and
| heating) and snow tyres.
| Hamuko wrote:
| You can get snow tyres fitted on a bicycle (I had some as
| a youth) but bicycles are still quite horrible in the
| winter.
|
| I remember biking home from school during the winter when
| it was snowing heavily. The sidewalks were completely
| snowed in with heavy snow so the bike just really went
| where it wanted to go and very slowly. I eventually
| decided to move over to the road but I was soon tailgated
| by a bus. Since the bus was honking at me, I had to pull
| over to the next bus stop to get him out of my ass. I
| think it was about at that moment that I decided to ditch
| winter biking once I could own a car.
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| Modern snow tires like Schwalbe's Ice Spiker Pro are a
| far cry from what existed in the olden days. Nowadays
| it's mainly a matter of having the quads (or electric
| motor) to drive them. Even with kids in the bicycle
| trailer, biking as primary transport is straight-forward
| on 95% of the days in winter.
| benfrancom wrote:
| Fat tire bikes work great in the snow.
| petre wrote:
| Yes bikes are nice and fun until you have a familiy that
| aren't hippies. Also hippies prefer warmer climates and
| home schooling. I wonder why. We've got quite a few
| bikes. Never use them during winter. Winter means snow
| and sub zero temperatures. I'd rather nordic walk
| instead. Not in the city breathing fumes, of course. I
| would ride my bike most of the time once cars or vehicles
| that spew fumes and turn you into roadkill are taken off
| the roads either by legislation, environmentalist
| militias or apocalypse.
| canadianfella wrote:
| Abusive?
| CameronNemo wrote:
| Isn't this short term thinking? That is the upfront cost. What
| about the total lifetime cost of the vehicle?
| imtringued wrote:
| TCO/month has been 200EUR for me for a cheap ICE. This
| includes car purchase, yearly servicing, random repairs and
| gasoline. There is no way for me to spend less money without
| buying used.
|
| The Dacia Spring would cost me 200EUR TCO/month. A Kia Soul
| EV with 60kWH could cost me 250EUR TCO/month for a slightly
| bigger car and more range+max speed. I wouldn't save money,
| but I also wouldn't break the bank.
|
| Right now it's a wash. I haven't calculated CO2 tax increases
| into the TCO though. Give it another 5 years and you would
| have to be stupid to buy ICEs.
| Someone1234 wrote:
| Gas is down to $3 and electric $12/kWh, with the state now
| charging electric vehicles higher registration fees yearly to
| offset the gas tax savings. There's likely small savings
| every year, but we're talking almost $20K price difference,
| maybe $12K with federal (and no state) rebate, you aren't
| going to be breaking even.
|
| Plus fun fact: My insurance would go up a lot with a Model 3
| from my current vehicle, 25% more a month. Why? I have no
| idea, but I'm guessing higher write-off or repair costs.
| [deleted]
| Hamuko wrote:
| The Model S was at least notorious for long and expensive
| repairs if you got into a crash. Not sure if that's the
| case for the Model 3 but Model S insurance rates are most
| probably high because of that.
| the_duke wrote:
| Still the case for Model 3/Y.
|
| Repairs can take months due to lack of spare parts.
| elihu wrote:
| I think you mean 12 cents a kWh? (So, a 60kWh battery can
| store $7.20 of electricity. Charging isn't perfectly
| efficient, so more like $8 to fully charge.)
|
| Let's say you can go 200 miles with that $8 of energy,
| that's 4 cents a mile.
|
| Let's say a gas car is 30 miles per gallon of $3 gas, or 10
| cents a mile. Over 200,000 miles, that's $20,000 for fuel,
| versus $8,000 of electricity in the EV. Seems like the
| total cost of ownership just about breaks even with federal
| rebates, and ignoring maintenance costs (generally expected
| to be higher with the gas vehicle) and ignoring that paying
| the cost up-front for an EV removes the potential for that
| money to accrue interest (which favors the gas vehicle).
|
| I'm hoping the EV costs continue to fall until we get to
| close to parity in terms of vehicle purchase price. This
| can happen either by battery prices falling, or for people
| to adjust their expectations and accept shorter range, or
| for the need for large batteries to become obsolete due to
| electrified roads that let you charge while the vehicle is
| still moving.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| Am I understanding this right?
|
| You're saying that gas is $3/gallon and electricity is
| $12/kWh?
|
| Over here gas is around $7,50-$8 per gallon and electricity
| is around $0.05/kWh. A 100km drive in an EV costs around
| 2EUR, while in a petrol powered car the cost is 8.5EUR for
| a low consumption car.
|
| No wonder Americans drive huge cars with no regard to
| consumption :D
| holoduke wrote:
| Which country do you live? Here in the Netherlands we pay
| roughly 20 dollar cents per kWh and 10 dollars per gallon
| sib wrote:
| I am 100% certain that ($12/kWh) is a typo.
|
| Even in CA, with some of the most expensive electricity,
| it's about $0.20 - $0.25 / kWh...
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| Electricity costs an average of $0.12/kWh in the US, not
| $12. It varies between about $0.083/kWh in Washington state
| to as much as $0.40/kWh in parts of Hawaii.
| glbrew wrote:
| If anything the lifetime cost of electric deters me. Usually
| they come with 10 year warranties for the power side of the
| car, but I kept my last car for 20 years. If I buy electric I
| assume I essentially need to buy a new car or pay for an
| expensive overhaul after a decade. So the math is more along
| the lines of 20k for a gas car that will last for 20 years,
| or 40k for an electric car that will probably last 10 years.
| Yes, you save some on energy but probably won't offset total
| cost difference.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| For some reason you're downvoted.
|
| I think that's a reasonable fear, dunno what the failure
| rate on large components will look like, especially
| batteries. One problem is that electric cars are bound to
| advance more quickly than something as mature as ICE-based
| ones. It would be easy to end up with something that's
| obsolete or poorly supported from a parts standpoint.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| Don't forget to factor in fuel cost and maintenance.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| and insurance. and government tithes (additional highway
| taxes are probably on the way)
| mikestew wrote:
| Oh, oh, I can answer this, given ownership of a ten year old
| Leaf ($35K) and a fifteen year old Scion xB/rebadged Toyota
| Echo ($20K): the $20K car is still going to win in TCO.
| Because the Leaf already starts out $15K in the hole. That's
| a _lot_ of oil and coolant changes. That 's a _lot_ of brake
| pads. And those are pretty much the three things an ICE needs
| done versus BEV. After 100K miles, the Scion needed a $1500
| clutch job. After 50K miles, the Leaf needs a new $5K battery
| pack (it 'll last a few more years, but it's coming).
|
| The Leaf still needs tires. It still needed the 12V accessory
| battery changed out. It still needs a cabin air filter
| changed once in a while. The Leaf has been reliable, nearly
| maintenance-free, and pretty appliance-like. But the Scion is
| a close second. We'll probably never buy an ICE again, that's
| how much we've like the Leaf and BEV in general. But "out of
| touch" doesn't even begin to describe someone arguing that
| those willing to spend $20K should spent twice as much
| because "TCO".
| bananabreakfast wrote:
| You left out the very important and difference making cost
| of gasoline. Which over 10 years of driving would more than
| make up the difference in cost.
| geoelectric wrote:
| That may depend on where you live, and what your
| electricity consumption already is. In CA, for example,
| with our tiered billing and PG&E's award-winning business
| practices, it's pretty easy for an electric car to rack
| up quite an energy bill. If you were already using
| electricity up to the top of your tier, the add for the
| car will be at $$$ rate.
|
| So they also have non-tiered plans for electric car
| owners but those are time of use. If you use them at peak
| for whatever reason, $$$ again. It's a little tricky.
|
| It won't be as expensive as liquid fuel, to be sure, but
| the savings over time might not be as high as you'd
| expect. Offsetting with solar seems to be the popular
| option around San Jose, where homeowners tend to be
| particularly affluent.
| mikestew wrote:
| You're paying for that difference upfront, however. Is
| gasoline in the U. S. likely to go up faster than the,
| say, S&P 500, where one could put that extra $15K until
| it's time to buy more gasoline? Historical data say "no".
| Gas was $3-$4/gallon when I moved to Seattle 20 years
| ago, and it continues to stay between $3-$4.
|
| There's lots to like about electric cars (again, so much
| so that I'll never buy another ICE), but IMO any cost
| savings is going to be pretty far down the list. After
| ten years of EV ownership, I'd almost pay the difference
| in price so I never, ever have to go out of my way to
| visit a gas station again. Man, what a hassle that is
| once out of the habit. But EVs are just generally better
| vehicles that make an ICE seem like the rattling,
| primitive contraption that it is. That doesn't sell cars
| because one needs to _own_ an EV to realize that. So to
| get folks to the ownership, we tell them it 'll save
| money on gas. Which is technically true, but not the
| reason to buy EVs.
| foepys wrote:
| People buying cars for $20,000 are generally not people who
| can invest twice upfront for lower maintenance costs over the
| next ten years. Being poor (relatively speaking) is
| expensive, especially when you are financing.
| dahfizz wrote:
| Isn't this situation a bit different?
|
| You're financing your car anyway, so its "free" to finance
| a car that $75/mo more expensive if you spend $75/mo less
| in gas savings. Factor in not having to pay for maintenance
| and it really is cheaper month to month.
|
| This is different from the classic example of having to buy
| cheap, low quality boot every month for $10 instead of
| buying really nice boots for $200 that would last a decade.
| The upfront cost of the nice boots (and the insane interest
| rates for credit cards) make the nice boots impossible to
| afford.
|
| EDIT: This is besides the point, but I don't think people
| dropping 20k on a car are "poor" in the way we are
| discussing anyway. Anyone buying a brand new car obviously
| has some money to spend
| holoduke wrote:
| I an in a fortunate position to earn much more than a
| average salary. Yet our family car is a 2005 10k infinity
| fx35. Car is reliable and modern enough. A perfect fit for
| my family of 4. I considered buying a 80k Tesla model X,
| but went for a 15 year old Ferrari f430 (same price). Still
| have the practically and a lot of extra fun. I never
| understood why people would buy a car younger than 15 years
| old.
| oblio wrote:
| Safety features.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > I never understood why people would buy a car younger
| than 15 years old.
|
| 15 years typically translates to 180K - 200K miles for
| average use cases.
|
| 15 year old cars are generally not in great shape.
| Finding low mileage, well-maintained unicorns is not as
| easy as it sounds.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Also 20k buys lot of maintenance, and gas. I wonder if at
| that price difference the maintenance and gas even is
| cheaper. Ofc, depends on driven distance, but still.
| anticristi wrote:
| This. I made a business case for keeping my old car or buying a
| similarly-sized electric one. No matter how high the downtime
| cost, my old beaten up car wins financially.
|
| Feels like electric cars are still designed to "signal
| greenness" and not actually save the planet.
| CalChris wrote:
| That's true for any car, regardless whether the new car is an
| EV or not.
| cptskippy wrote:
| > But yet an electric is going to replace a $21K Honda Civic by
| 2025?
|
| What's the average selling price of a Civic? With options the
| Civic can sell for over $35k.
| sib wrote:
| Edmunds.com shows the MSRP range for a 2021 Civic ranges from
| $21,050 - $28,100.
| skybrian wrote:
| Yes, very true, though prices will come down as volume goes up.
| We should all hope that these new models are a success and the
| prices drop.
|
| Though, if you're budget-conscious, why buy a new car at all?
| Used cars are a better deal. Leave the new cars for people with
| more money.
| Klwohu wrote:
| The range is the issue, the "suburban and rural retards"
| probably have more expensive vehicles than NY and San Fran
| dwellers. But nobody wants a car that can't run on gas unless
| you live on an Interstate corridor, the 101, etc.
| ajross wrote:
| (Not sure why you introduced that slur with scare quotes
| given that no one used it upthread, nor even suggested
| anything similar... This sounds a bit much like you're trying
| to pick a fight.)
|
| Almost no one, even in the US, lives legitimately far from an
| interstate corridor or other major infrastructure path.
|
| These EVs can absolutely be made to work in the red state
| exurbs. You'll find plenty of Tesla owners in those regions
| already. Where EVs tend to hurt most isn't with diffuse exurb
| commutes (where a 300 mile range does just fine!), but in
| long distance road trips where you have to charge more
| frequently and for longer periods than a gas car. And I
| assure you us cityfolk take just as many road trips as you
| red staters.
| Klwohu wrote:
| It strange, as you black/red flag city dwellers seem to we
| simple country folk to be poorer and less able to achieve
| land and vehicle ownership than we banjo-strumming
| hillbillies. Perhaps when we see you driving your little
| electric bug cars and living in rat shacks in this current
| year we get much the same impression that you do from
| looking at photos of the dust bowl era, still apparently
| the modern city person's vision of how people live outside
| their enclaves.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| You're projecting. No one is saying that.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| I'd say that the more general issue with rural areas is the
| increasing complexity of cars and the death of small car
| dealerships. This area lost 100% of it's dealerships during
| the real estate crash and I'm not sure that an independent
| shop can fix a new BMW (or F150).
| foepys wrote:
| Not only that, there are entire continents where electric
| vehicles are simply not feasible. You cannot drive an EV 100km
| through mud and forests to get to a town just to charge it.
| Those EVs are not only very heavy and will sink in mud, they
| turn into bricks when empty. Have fun getting electricity into
| the jungle. A gas canister can be brought by anybody and
| filling the car up is quick. So most likely you will be hauling
| around generators - gas powered of course.
|
| These are problems I don't see discussed anywhere when car
| manufacturers are claiming to go full EV by 2030.
| ajross wrote:
| To be fair: vehicle density in rural Africa or South America
| or wherever you're thinking of is extremely low. To first
| approximation all cars are in cities (because to first
| approximation all _people_ are in cities), and so to first
| approximation all cars can be feasibly replaced with EVs.
|
| It's true there will always be edge cases best served by some
| other technology, but that's true about any device, not just
| cars.
| Already__Taken wrote:
| How many of these places drive 2021 model cars right now?
| imtringued wrote:
| Probably none, and most of them can't even afford a used
| car with AWD. Every time I hear about Americans buying
| offroad cars as a status symbol I think of people in
| Cameroon getting stuck in the muddiest dirt roads on the
| planet with their Golf 3.
| agloeregrets wrote:
| Yup! Plus in the US the majority of all cars are not parked
| in a garage or driveway. How do those charge?
| plorkyeran wrote:
| I see power cables running out to a car parked in front of
| a house fairly regularly.
| martyvis wrote:
| In inner Sydney suburbs with terrace houses, the 2sigma
| distance to your street parked car might be 100 metres.
| You can't run an extension cord that far
| tommoor wrote:
| > in the US the majority of all cars are not parked in a
| garage or driveway.
|
| Source? That seems highly unlikely
| bananabreakfast wrote:
| Chargers are installed in parking lots everywhere. Just
| because you haven't noticed them doesn't mean they aren't
| there.
| bananabreakfast wrote:
| That's probably because car manufacturers are not making
| electric cars to traverse the jungle. That is an extremely
| niche use case compared to the global car driving population
| and a straw-man argument.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| It would be interesting to see an EV design that's
| appropriate for the Third World.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Look at some of the Chinese market cars. They are much
| closer to what you are thinking of.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Honda Super Cub with a battery.
| ajross wrote:
| Actually the market for new sub-$20k vehicles is quite small.
| Most people with budget concerns buy used. The median new
| passenger vehicle is something like a $40k minivan or pickup.
| So these EVs really aren't very far off the mark financially.
| robryan wrote:
| Are those EVs that are going to become decent sub $20k buys
| at say 5 years old even in existence yet? Even if they are
| there aren't enough of them being sold new yet.
|
| I seems to me probably another 5 years to get enough volume
| in solid lower end EVs that are bought in quantity and have a
| decent lifespan. Then another 5 years for them to filter down
| to the used market with decent prices.
|
| I bought a 2017 Golf last year for around $15k. In Australia
| the only thing you can get electric wise at that price point
| would be a 2013 or so leaf with 100km range, and even then
| there is basically no supply.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Indeed. These EVs will filter down to the used market over
| time, satiating demand from those not of means to afford a
| new car.
|
| It's ideal really; those who can buy new eat the
| depreciation, while those who can't afford new end up with a
| vehicle that will be able to go hundreds of thousands of
| miles before end of service life (perhaps with some cosmetic
| blemishes, but not much more of concern considering
| powertrain longevity). Not everyone needs a new car, many
| simply need a reliable car.
| Phenomenit wrote:
| >and blackmail buyers with missing basic features accordingly
|
| It's what VW does best!
|
| Remember that the first car looked like horse wagon and did for
| quite a while. The same can be said about the infrastructure as
| well.
| evo_9 wrote:
| Comparable to a Subaru Outback in what way?
|
| Maybe take a look at a 2-3 year old BMW i3; that's what I
| bought for ~$18k US with only 6k miles on it. They're BEV with
| a range of _only_ ~130miles which is pretty much all I need for
| local commuting; longer trips we rent a gas SUV, or at least
| that 's the plan when our 3 month old is older.
| rsync wrote:
| Is it their electric car or is it _their car, electric_ ?
|
| I don't want your electric car.
|
| I don't want your e-initiative i-mobile green-tech tron-car.
|
| I want one of your _actual cars, just electric_.
|
| I don't want an ID.4 - I just want a Passat. I don't want the
| polestar e-initiative i-concept - I just want a V90 wagon. _I don
| 't want a future space truck, I just want a Silverado - but
| electric._
|
| God. Dammit.
| guyzero wrote:
| The had the eGolf, which was the Golf, but electric. They were
| almost indistinguishable. The eGolf range was 125 miles, the
| ID.4 range is 250 miles. That's why they have new specific
| electric models. Electrifying existing models is generally
| underwhelming.
| cameldrv wrote:
| Designing an electric car has a lot of different design
| tradeoffs than a gas car, so cars that are designed from the
| ground up as electric are going to perform better than gas cars
| that are electrified.
|
| The biggest two factors are that the battery is large and
| heavy, but is flexible in the shape it assumes. For good
| handling, you'd like to have this weight as low on the car as
| possible, and close to the center. The almost universally
| accepted solution is the skateboard design, where the batteries
| sit under the passengers, spread out over a large area.
|
| The electric motors are also small and you can do away with a
| lot of systems like the transmission, exhaust, starter motor,
| alternator, gas tank, various pumps, pollution controls, etc.
| This means much less need for under hood space.
|
| Once you take these factors into account, the designs of
| various EVs make a lot of sense.
| outside1234 wrote:
| But Tesla's cars are exactly this - they are largely gas
| sedans that look normal and are electric.
|
| People don't want some dorky looking electric car like
| Volkswagen's or BMW's. They want a normal car that's
| electric.
| geoelectric wrote:
| The pseudo-fastback sedan actually wasn't nearly as popular
| until around the time the model S came out. Then I started
| seeing it in a lot more cars, especially luxury, where the
| rear window comes down almost to the edge of the trunk. I'd
| always credited the S with kicking off the trend.
| internet2000 wrote:
| You forget all the handwringing over the fake grill-less
| nose when the Model 3 came out.
| Tagbert wrote:
| Teslas are not "gas sedans". They are purpose built EVs.
| They are sedans and are one of the few sedans that are
| still selling. Most other manufacturers had seen their
| sedan market evaporate to the point that they have dropped
| those models entirely.
|
| Since the current EV market is still very small,
| manufacturers target the most popular body style to
| maximize their sales. That is currently an SUV/CUV in the
| US and in many markets. It is to be hoped that, once the EV
| market gets large enough, there will be room for different
| body styles such as sedans or smaller hatches. Personally,
| I would prefer something closer to the ID.3 but that is not
| something I expect to see in the US any time soon.
| Animats wrote:
| How else would they justify the 2x price premium for all-
| electric?
|
| This is a curse of the classic auto manufacturers. Look at the
| pricing discussed for the all-electric Ford F-150. Somewhere
| around US$100K. Where the gas car makers have come out with
| electric cars in a gas car product line, they've usually had
| about twice the base price.
|
| Electric power is priced as a super-premium trim level. "More
| car per car".
|
| This provides a huge opening for Chinese automakers, who don't
| seem to have that hangup. It ought to provide an opening for
| Toyota, if they ever get off their hydrogen fixation.
| Tagbert wrote:
| In what way is the price of the ID.4 2X? It's closest match
| in the VW family is the Tiguan with starts around $26K. Yes,
| the ID.4 is around $14K more but that is due to the new
| technology that is slowly becoming more affordable. The first
| Chevy Volt's price was around $40K ten years ago while the
| most recent Volt's were around $32K last year. I'm sure that
| VW would prefer to be able to bring the price down to be more
| competative but in doing so, it would likely be below their
| cost to manufacture and that is not a good long term
| strategy.
| danans wrote:
| They are creating a new brand altogether, much as they did with
| the Beetle 80+ years ago. This line of vehicles are intended to
| _replace_ the Passat, Jetta, etc, not be their electric
| alternative.
| digikata wrote:
| Kia Niro, comes in Hybrid, Plug-in/Hybrid, or EV variants
| pkulak wrote:
| It looks like a Honda CUV or Toyota Rav-4 to me. Not sure where
| your outrage is coming from.
| rsync wrote:
| No, I'm asking - is this a VW, but electric, or is this an
| e-initiative space-car ? Genuinely unsure.
|
| I would classify the Chevy Bolt (which we own) as the latter
| .
| Tagbert wrote:
| The ID.4 could be considered to be an electric version of
| the VW Tiguan. It is similar in internal size and capacity
| and it targets the compact CUV customer but with electric
| drive train. It does use a newer platform. Even the styling
| is quite restrained and conservative compared to other EVs.
| oblio wrote:
| Well, not typical for HN, a lazy question. But I'll bite.
| You could have looked at the video, it's only 2 minutes.
| ID.4 is a pretty boring/normal looking car.
|
| Now, for the e-initiative, it's an e-initiative all right.
| A $86 billion over 5 years e-initiative
| (https://www.reuters.com/article/volkswagen-strategy-
| idUSKBN2...) :-)
|
| ID.4 is based on an entirely new VW platform (https://en.wi
| kipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_MEB_platform) which is
| already used for 6 models and it will probably be used by
| 60+ in 2 years' time.
|
| It's practically VW's future. They're betting the farm on
| it.
| brokenintuition wrote:
| I went from a Bolt to now having an ID4. So far it seems to
| fall in the VW but electric category (although this is my
| first VW, so take that with a grain of salt). Major things
| I prefer over the bolt: nicer (in my opinion) interior,
| more interior space, travel assist is pretty awesome,
| slightly longer range, and higher fast charging rate. The
| higher fast charging rate is what's making it more viable
| for us to take that instead of my wife's gas car for trips,
| since charging stops don't need to be as long.
| pkulak wrote:
| Well, it's the same platform as all their other cars. So
| I'd say it's a VW.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I do actually want the Polestar 1, since it's drop dead
| gorgeous. Unfortunately it's a very limited run hybrid car that
| costs as much as my apartment.
|
| Also weirdly Polestar is also falling into this EV design
| pitfall. They release a petrol car and it's gorgeous. Then they
| release an EV and it's misproportioned and ugly.
| rsync wrote:
| Polestar 1 is , indeed, Beautiful. However it is not an
| electric car.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| It definitely is. It's a plug-in hybrid.
| rsynnott wrote:
| > I want one of your actual cars, just electric.
|
| VW did that for a while; the eGolf. The (rather similar-
| looking, in fairness) id.3 that replaced it seems to be doing a
| lot better.
| flurdy wrote:
| I see what you mean, but that is not always going to be a good
| idea as electric cars is more than a change of motor.
|
| Much more aerodynamic, lighter, different frames for lower
| centre of gravity, different controls, dashboards, etc. (I am
| not a car designer). So a car designed from scratch will
| complete these much better than a simple conversion.
| Klwohu wrote:
| Still going to have to check it to make sure it's not producing
| smog when the authorities aren't watching.
| wayanon wrote:
| It's interesting to see the word 'pollution' seems to have been
| completely replaced by 'emission'. I guess the car industry won?
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| 'Mostly peaceful' emission might be the way to go.
| legulere wrote:
| Zero emission vehicles still pollute with their tires.
| barbazoo wrote:
| And don't forget: during production
| theshrike79 wrote:
| I'll take tire pollution over gridlocked non-moving cars
| spewing fumes right next to my apartment, thank you.
| rorykoehler wrote:
| I saw one in the wild last week and I am very happy to see that
| they look great and normal.
| mhh__ wrote:
| On the subject of styling I still find these electric cars
| slightly off with the plastic where the grill normally be. It
| just seems wrong - especially with a company like Tesla which
| has no design heritage to be bound to, one expects better.
|
| The Taycan doesn't have this issue at the front, and I think
| it's a good looking thing.
| rorykoehler wrote:
| Why would you have a grill when you don't have any need for
| it?
| mhh__ wrote:
| That's my point, though, the front doesn't need to be that
| shape any more, do something else (i.e. what Porsche have
| done with the Taycan, which just tapers all the way down to
| the number plate).
| rorykoehler wrote:
| Sorry I misunderstood. Of all the recently released cars
| the Mercedes EQS is the only one that is obviously doing
| what you complain about.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| Battery cooling? Cabin ventilation? A/C condenser? Front
| brake cooling?
| rorykoehler wrote:
| The ev car grills are aesthetic only. They are sealed.
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| I'm simply giving reasons why an EV might have a front
| air intake with a grill.
|
| Given the location of this stuff, I could easily see some
| cars using the area-formerly-used-for-the-radiator for
| other things.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xax1HmVPKZY
| kingsuper20 wrote:
| I keep hoping that someone builds an electric car that looks
| like an early 911.
| mhh__ wrote:
| Most of the porsche range is going electric, including the
| Boxster.
|
| If that doesn't scratch the itch I'm sure people will be
| making Singer-esque EVs with a 911 shell.
| Hamuko wrote:
| Porsches have never really had prominent grilles, not even
| when the engine was up in the front, so that helps. The
| Panamera has a very slick front-end despite having the engine
| in the front.
| SyzygistSix wrote:
| Interesting. I agree they look normal but to me that means
| ugly.
| outside1234 wrote:
| From the company with rampant electrical reliability problems in
| their existing gas cars. Hmmmm.
| rconti wrote:
| I've been following the id.4 release with moderate interest. I
| previously had a 2016 Golf R 6 speed manual, and now have a 2018
| Tesla Model 3.
|
| IMO, the VW is just too expensive. Now, if you're getting the tax
| credit on the VW, and of course can't get it on a Tesla anymore,
| that makes the difference. But without the credit, the id4 is
| virtually the price of an AWD Model Y. For a vehicle that doesn't
| have AWD, has a ton less power, is significantly slower, less
| range, and no supercharger access.
|
| Now, those aren't awful hits against a tax-credit-fueled $10k
| savings (or whatever). But I don't think it's close to there yet.
|
| There are a lot of weird things from the reviews I've seen, too.
| Spotty voice recognition, "free" charging requires you to use a
| fiddly phone app, the car only has 2 window switches and requires
| that you toggle between front and rear with a 3rd button (wtf),
| and the Nav system is awful and routes you to chargepoint (ultra
| slow) chargers on a roadtrip, vs DC fast chargers.
|
| So much of this can be changed in software, and maybe VW will
| drop the price when the tax credits go away, the same way Tesla
| did.
|
| But, it just seems like far too little car for the money.
| wishysgb wrote:
| well my sister is looking at it for 29k after incentives that
| is a lot less than Model 3 or Y
| Hamuko wrote:
| When are we getting good looking electric cars? The only good
| looking EV thus far is the Honda e but it has issues in pretty
| much every other department.
| edhelas wrote:
| SUV...
| theshrike79 wrote:
| SUV is the easiest platform for EVs, sadly.
|
| 1) add layer of batteries 2) add wheels to battery base 3) slap
| on some fancy stuff
|
| Ta-dah! An EV SUV.
|
| No need to plan where the batteries need to go to keep the car
| looking like a car.
|
| If you want a "budget" EV that looks like a car and not a
| building on wheels, your only options are pretty much the
| Hyundai Ioniq and Tesla Model 3. The rest are 100k+ premium
| cars (Model S, Porsche Taycan etc).
| mhh__ wrote:
| Hopefully (particularly from the French car companies, as they
| have some interesting little designs from the past to draw
| from) EVs can provide a kick up the arse for manufacturers to
| lead rather than shit out SUV after SUV - particularly given
| that they are using new propulsion that can't afford
| unnecessary weight and drag.
| redisman wrote:
| I'd imagine this is mainly for the US market.
| closeparen wrote:
| I wonder what will happen to the SUV vs. car distribution when
| "gas guzzler" isn't a consideration anymore. There's still
| parking, of course, but most SUVs I see have the same wheelbase
| as their sedan counterparts. They're just tall.
| gryzzly wrote:
| the time will come when cities will stop allowing using so much
| public space for the sake of one person/family's comfort.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-04-23 23:00 UTC)