[HN Gopher] How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany
___________________________________________________________________
How to find a job as Software Developer in Germany
Author : Varqu
Score : 142 points
Date : 2021-04-22 13:33 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (germantechjobs.de)
(TXT) w3m dump (germantechjobs.de)
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| Any time these guides come up they are simply shocking. I love
| Europe, I grew up there. I don't understand why anyone would stay
| as a developer in the EU. Software is simply not valued.
|
| Dev salaries are astounding. Senior engineers in the EU make less
| than entry level undergrads in the US or Canada. 60k Euros is 70k
| USD. People out of bootcamps with zero experience make more than
| that in the US. I don't have a single friend from university that
| I remember making less than 100k upon graduation. Mid-career
| salaries with bonuses and stock are 200k+.
|
| I'm afraid that until things radically change in the EU we'll
| always have US tech giants. Living in the EU isn't worth a 4x pay
| cut for many people.
| _petronius wrote:
| As someone who grew up in the US, and works as a software
| engineer in Europe, I can't understand why anyone would ever
| choose to work as a developer in America. :)
|
| I have a very high quality of life here, strong protections as
| a permanent employee (increasingly less common in other
| industries in Germany, but not in tech!), a salary that is
| excellent compared to many of my peers, and comes with a
| purchasing power that I imagine meets or exceeds someone in my
| same position in New York or the Bay Area.
|
| I won't pretend there aren't downsides (for example, stock as
| compensation is rare here, and not incentivised by the legal
| situation), but for me the upsides win over raw actuarial
| comparisons. I'd much rather have my compensation in Berlin
| than trade it for 2x or even 4x that in the US.
|
| (Edit to add: once you bring rent, medical insurance and
| associated out-of-pocket costs, and paid time off into the
| picture, compensation in the US starts to look like a pretty
| raw deal IMO.)
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| I'd rather have free time and enjoy a modest life than have
| little time and have all the money in the world but can buy
| anything I want.
| eudajmonia wrote:
| I'm from New Zealand, but work in Europe. Recently I started
| working remotely for an American firm part-time. Those few
| hours I work for the Americans equates to about 3x the amount
| of stress from my EU job but with absolutely no protection
| (at-will clauses). There is such a palpable difference in
| culture, management style that I am fairly certain I would
| never work for an American firm again.
| alanfriedman wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what were some of the differences in work
| culture you experienced? I've never worked outside the
| U.S., so would be interested to hear a different
| perspective.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Not OP - but I've worked with American and non-American
| tech companies. For similar-sized companies, my
| experience was that American companies are more obsessed
| with productivity and metrics, with more frequent
| meetings involving people who don't need to be present
| (including at least one one who is a level or 2 too high,
| but justify their presence by having to say something
| which occasionally derails the meeting).
|
| On a purely subjective note: American work culture has
| lower trust _and_ attempts to extract much more
| "productivity" from people doing the work compared to
| European companies, which is not always proportional to
| the salary differences. My sample size is fairly small
| (<5)
| mercutio2 wrote:
| > comes with a purchasing power that I imagine meets or
| exceeds someone in my same position in New York or the Bay
| Area
|
| That seems very unlikely. Housing is expensive in most of the
| major metropolitan areas in the US, but you more than make up
| for it with higher salaries.
|
| The rest of your argument makes perfectly good sense, there's
| lots to love about living and working in Europe! It may well
| be worth it to you.
|
| But it's disingenuous to mix those quality of life arguments
| with an argument about money. Tech workers in the US tech
| hubs live a financially/materially more comfortable life than
| those in Europe.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| The only problem with your comparison (and I'm not saying devs
| don't make less money in EU) is that you can't just convert one
| currency to the other. You have to compare purchasing power and
| quality of life.
|
| The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or 'you
| can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now, you
| are talking about different continents.
|
| I would compare the possible lifestyles and quality of life:
| how long does it take to buy a house/apartment? Can you afford
| to travel on vacation? Can you save money for your kids'
| college (or do you even need to do that)?
| alexhutcheson wrote:
| > The same salary in US could be viewed as 'you are rich' or
| 'you can't pay rent' depending on with city you live in. Now,
| you are talking about different continents.
|
| "You can't make rent"/"You can't buy a house with a
| reasonable commute" an a software dev salary is almost
| entirely a California and NYC-area phenomenon.
|
| A "typical" software developer (even a junior) could afford a
| decent house within a reasonable commute in ~7 of the top 10
| metro areas in the US (Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Miami,
| Philadelphia, Atlanta). In the remaining 3 (NYC, LA, DC),
| you'd probably end up with an unpleasantly long commute,
| although plenty of people make that choice. If you go further
| down the list of metros, the ratio is similar.
|
| > How long does it take to buy a house/apartment?
|
| In any of the metro areas mentioned above, you should be able
| to buy a house on a software dev salary as soon as you've
| save a 5-10% down payment (so $25-50k for a $500k house, more
| if you want something bigger/in a nicer area). The difference
| in salaries vs. Europe would typically allow you to save that
| within a couple years.
|
| > Can you afford to travel on vacation?
|
| Unambiguous yes - you can afford the monetary cost of a
| vacation on a software dev salary. Families in much less
| lucrative fields than software still take vacations.
|
| Paid time off is trickier - European norms are for employers
| to provide much higher amounts of PTO for all employees,
| while most American firms are much stingier with it. This is
| something to explicitly shop around for and use as a decision
| criteria in a job hunt. There are definitely large American
| firms that provide 20-25 PTO days standard for new employees.
|
| > Can you save money for your kids' college (or do you even
| need to do that)?
|
| Annual tuition & mandatory fees at the flagship state
| university in the median state is ~$12k, so ~$48k for a
| 4-year degree. This excludes living costs, but you have to
| pay living costs at European universities as well. If returns
| on your college investments keep pace with tuition increases
| (many states have programs that can explicitly guarantee
| this), then you can pay tuition after 18 years by saving
| $2700/year per child.
|
| You didn't mention healthcare, which often comes up, but
| software devs working as full-time employees will typically
| have good health insurance available through work, so that's
| not a problem in practice either.
|
| There are tons of reasons to prefer Europe vs. the US
| (culture, a preference for dense living, lower-pressure work
| environments, more paid time off, etc.) but overall buying
| power isn't really one of them. Your salary will buy you more
| "stuff" (housing, cars, vacations, savings, etc.) in the US,
| unless you choose to live in one of the highest-cost regions
| of the country without a correspondingly high salary.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| This is spot on. We made exactly the same calculation and
| you make more money, have better healthcare, can buy a
| better house, and save far more money in the US than in the
| EU as a developer.
|
| Yeah, you have to buy the perks that are free (because your
| taxes go toward useful things) in the EU, but you make so
| much more money, that buying them is easy.
|
| The US is a really strange place. It's far worse for 90% of
| people than the EU, but for the top 5% or so, it's
| unimaginably better.
| FalconSensei wrote:
| Sure, I agree with you on everything. Your comment is a bit
| more detailed than just converting EUR to USD, and gives a
| better feeling on the actual difference. As I mentioned on
| my comment, I was not disagreeing that the dev make more
| money in US, but just that the parent comment was not
| considering some things you have to pay in US, that makes
| the difference a bit smaller
| dasil003 wrote:
| Fair point, quality of life has a lot of non-fungible aspects
| (and I saw this as someone who has lived in 5 metro areas and
| 3 continents over the last 15 years), however the difference
| does not all get eaten by cost of living, especially if you
| stay disciplined. A single reasonably strong SDE you can
| pretty easily be making $250k, even after exorbitant bay area
| rents you can still save/invest 1-2x _your total equivalent
| EU salary_. Even just coming and living a frugal lifestyle
| for 5-10 years can be life changing.
|
| That said, with the rise of big tech satellite offices and
| remote work, there is definitely a path to EUR150k+ total
| comp without leaving the EU, and over time this should put
| upward pressure on salaries across the board (London is ahead
| of the curve here).
| FalconSensei wrote:
| Sure, and I'm in no way doubting that developers make more
| in US than EU. I'm just saying that it would be better if
| we had a comparison that was more realistic in terms of
| what you can actually get with your money - and also other
| things like healthcare, overtime, vacations, work culture.
| maccard wrote:
| I've made this point many many times on this site, but if you
| make 150k in san Francisco, and pay 4k a month on rent, you
| have more left over after rent and tax than a mid level
| developer in europe makes as a gross salary.
| ramraj07 wrote:
| But the avocado toast ain't cheap either! Neither is your
| Soulcycle class! People seem to find a way to spend their
| money one way or another anyway! But if you save the money,
| sure. However if you still buy the house in SF with that
| savings you tend to again lose all benefit. Thus the only
| way to do this correctly is make a lot of money in Sf for a
| decade, save most of it, move to some European country and
| don't earn at all (this no tax).
| maccard wrote:
| > But the avocado toast ain't cheap either! Neither is
| your Soulcycle class
|
| A soulcycle class is $35/pop. Even at one a day, on top
| of $4000/month for rent, and income tax, you're still
| left with roughly the amount a mid level engineer in a
| european city (excluding maybe London) makes pre-tax. No
| amount of Avocado toast, or whatever the sneaker fad
| changes that equation.
|
| > However if you still buy the house in SF with that
| savings you tend to again lose all benefit.
|
| That's no different to buying a house in London or
| Amsterdam say, except once you've dumped $1m into your
| "modest" home, you're still earning 2.5x what the person
| in London/Amsterdam is.
| spaced-out wrote:
| If you can only make 150K in San Francisco, you'd be better
| off moving to a MCOL or LCOL US city where you can make
| nearly that much and have no trouble paying rent. It's only
| worth working in San Francisco if you're making 200K+ and
| think you have a good shot at making 300-500K in ~5 years
| or so (or if you're already making >300K, obviously).
| clpm4j wrote:
| When I made ~$150k in SF, that equated to $8k/month
| after-tax. $2k/month for a decent studio/1-bedroom apt
| near Golden Gate Park. I felt very comfortable and very
| much enjoyed my quality of life on that salary.
| maccard wrote:
| The actual number is irrelevant; If you make <roughly
| average amount> in SF, and pay <way over the odds> for
| rent, post tax and rent, your leftover money is still
| more than a mid level engineer in Europe, even in London
| where the costs of living are proportional. If you make
| 2/3/500k it only skews in the balance of the bay area.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| You clearly don't work in the midwest...
| BigMajestic wrote:
| And even those 60k Euro is for western Europe. In central-
| eastern Europe it's around half of it.
| qwytw wrote:
| I guess it's differs quite a bit between specific countries,
| but where I live (which is pretty close to as far east as you
| can get without leaving the EU) that might had been the case
| a couple of years ago, but now 60k pre tax is not at all an
| exceptional salary reasonable for a senior developer (I'd
| around 80k is close to the upper bound). And the living
| expenses are not even close to the more expensive W. European
| cities, you can get a fairly decent 2 bedroom apartment in a
| relatively good area for below 200k.
|
| To be fair the gap between senior developer and entry level
| salaries is pretty big here. Entry level salaries might
| around 30k (which is close to the median overall full time
| salary here if you live in the capital).
| cosmodisk wrote:
| Eastern Europe,or at least some parts of it, already seeing
| tech salaries getting closer to those in western Europe,while
| cost of living is still fairly reasonable.
| DavidVoid wrote:
| Compared to most jobs, developers are still pretty valued. I'm
| a junior software engineer in Sweden with an MSE degree. My
| entry salary was a bit lower than average for this industry at
| $50,000/year ($3000/month after taxes), but that's still higher
| than what 95% of nurses make in this country.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| Many nurses in my state (Wisconsin) make more than you.
| DavidVoid wrote:
| And they should, so good for them.
| jakub_g wrote:
| 1) In Europe you don't get unexpected medical bills for
| tens/hundreds thousands of dollars when you have some medical
| issue.
|
| 2) Your kids won't get shot in the school.
|
| 3) You don't have to drive 20 minutes to the closest store to
| buy bread and milk.
|
| 4) I have 35d of paid vacation, while AFAICT in US you're lucky
| if you get 20. I'd get a brain melt or die from overworking if
| I had any less vacation days than now.
|
| I've never been to US so I overly generalize and cherrypick
| based on what I've read, but I think what I wrote above will
| ring bell to many others.
|
| Apart from that, other issues like: being close to family etc.
|
| I could imagine going to US for a few years and get $$$ and get
| back, but overall, US does not seem to me like an American
| dream from the 90s anymore.
| Rompect wrote:
| Number 2 de facto doesn't happen in the US.
| cyminum wrote:
| 1) That almost certainly will not happen with the health
| insurance as a software engineer.
|
| 2) An average of three children die per year in school
| shootings, giving odds of roughly 1 in 800,000 (hard to tell
| with such tiny sample sizes). Your child is more likely to be
| struck by lightning and far more likely to die in a fire or
| car accident. (https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/1
| 0/11/lockdown-...
|
| 3) That is just not true unless you live in a rural area. I
| don't know where you get that from. Denser cities have
| groceries often within walking distance, and most suburbs
| will have plenty of grocery stores within a 5-10 minute
| drive.
|
| 4) Unlimited PTO is extremely common for tech companies in
| the US. It's not uncommon for me to see people taking 7+
| weeks.
|
| There are issues in the US of course, but I really would not
| completely trust low-effort media narratives. There's a
| reason people come here.
| jakub_g wrote:
| I exaggerated in my post, but the general difference is: in
| US to access high paying jobs, you can either live in city
| centres where rent is sky high, or suburbs which are very
| car-centric. This is not compelling to many Europeans. I
| might not be earning six-digit salary, but I don't share a
| room with 3 people and don't live in a van (this is
| probably grotesque but there were many stories like that on
| HN alone).
|
| About the shootings, yes, media coverage is skewing things
| a lot. I live in France and my friends abroad think there's
| an islamic terrorist attack happening here every week.
|
| Anyway, the US society feels way more class-divided. Even
| if as an employee of FAANG I would get a good health
| insurance, the way the system works overall for average
| folk just doesn't make me feel like living in such a
| system. (What if I lose a job for whatever reason? No fancy
| insurance anymore!). And as someone with a "preexisting
| condition" I'm actually not sure how my case would be
| treated in case I wanted to apply for a visa.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| > I exaggerated in my post, but the general difference
| is: in US to access high paying jobs, you can either live
| in city centres where rent is sky high, or suburbs which
| are very car-centric. This is not compelling to many
| Europeans. I might not be earning six-digit salary, but I
| don't share a room with 3 people and don't live in a van
| (this is probably grotesque but there were many stories
| like that on HN alone).
|
| Rent in SF-NY is high, but it's not that high. It's far
| less than the extra money that you make. $3k/month will
| get you a nice apartment just for yourself, no roommates.
| $4k/month will get you something awesome.
|
| On $150k/year, which is what my students make as their
| entry-level salaries at Google and friends, you can buy
| an apartment in almost every metro area in the US so that
| you don't even need a car. As a mid career developer you
| can easily afford a house even in SF-NY. I don't even
| have a driver's license...
|
| > Even if as an employee of FAANG I would get a good
| health insurance, the way the system works overall for
| average folk just doesn't make me feel like living in
| such a system.
|
| That's the thing. The US works for the people in the top
| 5% and is pretty bad for the people in the bottom 90%.
|
| > And as someone with a "preexisting condition" I'm
| actually not sure how my case would be treated in case I
| wanted to apply for a visa.
|
| Visas don't have healthcare checks. You'll be fine.
| cyminum wrote:
| 1. Even if you spend another $3000/month on housing
| (ridiculous and unrealistic), that's just $36000 a year.
| That's far exceeded by the pay increase in the US.
|
| 2. There is a long long long distance between the average
| case and the worst case that you are describing,
| especially for engineers. Sharing a room with 3 people or
| living in a van is very very very far from the average
| case. Pretty much no engineer needs to do this. If they
| are, they are doing it to save to the max or doing
| something very wrong.
|
| 3. Same with health insurance. You don't need FAANG for
| good health insurance. 92% of people have health
| insurance. Granted, that is of varying quality but being
| uninsured is far from the average case.
|
| My sense of the US vs. western Europe is that the US is
| quite a bit worse if you are in the bottom 30%, slightly
| better in the average case, and much better for the top
| 20%. And engineers easily make it into the top 20%. So
| perhaps the peace of mind is worth it since rock bottom
| is so awful in the US. But there still is a big
| difference between average and worst case, and the media
| hyper focuses on the worst case.
| jakub_g wrote:
| Thx for the reply. It's always difficult to evaluate
| things from the outside without having full context.
|
| Re: housing + medical costs, yep, the quick math says
| that unless things go really terribly wrong, in a few
| years one should build up a substantial safety net
| despite the costs.
|
| For young and healthy (new graduates etc.) it definitely
| makes sense to go to US for a few years (and then perhaps
| come back as a remote person in Europe and start a small
| EU office, I know that's how many EU offices of US
| second-tier (non-FAANG) big techs have started).
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| Where and how did you move? Visas aren't all that easy to get.
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| Well, seniors can make like 70-80kEUR where I live, which is
| like the 3rd percentile in my country. Still true though, the
| salaries are not great compared to the US.
|
| Is Canada that much better though? I briefly considered it but
| I determined that the high rents and not so high wages would
| not be worth it for a move.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| The situation in Canada changed a lot in the past 2-3 years.
| It used to be that hearing about people making 200k mid-
| career in Canada was rare, now it's becoming more common.
| You're still taking a ~25% pay cut compared to the US. It
| really depends though, if you work for a large US company in
| Canada you are far better off than working for a Canadian
| company.
|
| > Well, seniors can make like 70-80kEUR where I live, which
| is like the 3rd percentile in my country. Still true though,
| the salaries are not great compared to the US.
|
| That also means you have no room for growth. In the US
| 200k/year would put you in the 10th percentile for household
| income. You have plenty of room to build up from there. The
| thing about the EU is that not only are salaries low, the
| ceiling is also low.
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| Maybe I'll consider Canada then. I have a bunch of
| relatives there and immigration would be relatively easy
| (especially compared to the US).
| betaby wrote:
| Canada is Vancouver or Calgary? What place you have in
| mind? Speaking for Montreal 200k basically unheard here.
| Industry is predominately gaming or banking, and the
| talking about median of 100k base for senior, bonuses are
| around 10%
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| GTA and Vancouver. No idea how the rest of Canada is.
| Yeah, I hear that gaming in Montreal is poorly paid and
| Canadian banks don't care about software; I don't know
| anyone that is well paid by a Canadian bank.
| darkhorse13 wrote:
| Money is not the only important thing in life.
| mbesto wrote:
| It's not, but I (as the parent has pointed out) find it
| astounding that salaries are so low compared to the US. Not
| necessarily because of absolute value of the salary, but
| because of the relative value to the biz people work in.
|
| AFAIK, SaaS companies aren't charging demonstrably less for
| their applications in the EU than they are in the US. So the
| ratio from development to commercial value in the EU is
| significantly higher.
|
| In other words, management/founders/investments/equity
| holders should be far more profitable in the EU and its to
| the detriment of the individual engineer. Income inequality
| is therefore in theory more exacerbated.
| gigatexal wrote:
| What I did:
|
| Check who's hiring in X on HN.
|
| Apply.
|
| Realize the company is located in Hamburg, Germany.
|
| Get hired.
|
| Move.
|
| Enjoy life in a stable, wealthy, European country.
| no_one_ever wrote:
| Did you move from US? What is the process like?
| gigatexal wrote:
| I did, yes. I moved with my wife and two dogs and most of our
| stuff to Hamburg.
|
| The startup paid for the flights, the visa fees (if any, I
| don't remember), the container to put our crap in (it was a
| logistics startup so they knew how to do this rather well),
| and prepaid for an AirBnB for 3 months for us to find
| housing.
|
| We had hang ups in getting my wife recognized such that we
| could get on the more lucrative tax schedule of tax class 3
| (one earner). The Germans are sticklers for the details but
| common sense prevailed and our paper work was finally honored
| and we got a blue card which means my visa is tied to my
| working and making a minimum amount.
|
| We live now in Berlin and absolutely love it here. We don't
| interact with the government much so maybe that's why but
| all-in-all it's awesome out here. I don't worry about getting
| shot or anything like that.
| no_one_ever wrote:
| thank you for your detailed response. I have some family in
| Germany and have thought about trying something similar, so
| I love to hear others' experiences.
| sneak wrote:
| Did you worry about getting shot in the US?
| gigatexal wrote:
| Yes. In Portland where I lived we didn't make enough to
| live in the nicer parts of town so we lived in the north
| east near Gresham and crime was a problem out there. Lots
| of gang violence.
|
| My comment was a bit flippant. But it was something I
| thought about from time to time. Here not at all.
| channel_t wrote:
| As a fellow east Portlander who stayed in Berlin a couple
| Summers ago and absolutely fell in love with the place, I
| really appreciate the story and applaud your successful
| relocation.
| sneak wrote:
| Well, for some additional anecdata: I've been
| mugged/attacked twice as much in Berlin (where I live)
| than I was in Detroit (where I grew up).
|
| I think perhaps the perception of risk in the US is blown
| way out of proportion due to the media frenzy around
| shootings, which are still pretty rare overall in the US.
| If you consume mass media, you will generally
| overestimate the risk by several orders of magnitude.
| (This is, for example, why many Europeans believe the
| stereotype that the US is so dangerous, when the vast
| majority of it is actually much safer wrt violent crime
| than most large cities in Europe.)
|
| If you were afraid there, you should be afraid here. (I
| personally don't think you should be afraid in either
| place.)
| gigatexal wrote:
| I could hear the sirens and the shots in the backyard of
| my house. :/ though my perception of their frequency
| could be biased.
|
| I'm sorry to hear you were mugged and twice, too! That's
| crazy. Not crazy that crime happens just that it blows
| away my thesis that I'm more or less free from having to
| think about it living here in Berlin.
|
| I did have a fancy road bike I bought in Hamburg stolen.
| But I think that's more or less me being stupid.
| Nimitz14 wrote:
| Ridiculous statement. The homocide rate is so much higher
| in the US. Hard to believe anything you say.
| sneak wrote:
| It's much higher in about five specific counties in the
| US. The vast majority of the US has less violent crime
| overall (guns, plus everything else) than most large
| cities in Europe. For a simple example in Berlin you get
| pepper sprayed by stick-up kids, whereas in the US
| mountain west there isn't much mugging at all (due to the
| fact that a mugger is about 50/50 to get a wallet or a
| bullet in response).
|
| The mistake is to think of the US as uniform. Most of it
| is extremely peaceful.
| legulere wrote:
| Lowest homicide rate in a US State is 1.5 in Maine,
| average is 5. Germany has 0.9 on average.
|
| In general poverty (which is more common in the US) leads
| to violence and other crimes. Bringing weapons into
| conflicts usually escalated them and leads to worse
| outcomes.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_t
| err...
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_t
| err...
| estaseuropano wrote:
| Germans complain a lot about the government and lengthy
| procedures because they mostly haven't experienced what its
| like in other countries. Stickler for details but if you
| get those right everything is smooth and swift and no one
| asks for under the counter money or sends you away just
| because they don't like your face.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| I'm also enjoying life in a stable, wealthy, European country.
| It just came to my mind, recently, that affording a decent
| house (not flat) in this idealized European country of mine is
| still quite hard as long as one is an employee. Comfortable
| life starts when one works for himself (not freelancer, but
| owning a small company).
|
| Except unless you plan to buy a house in a town in the middle
| of nowhere, of course! Those are quite cheap.
| gigatexal wrote:
| I thought US house prices were insane until I saw what houses
| are going for here. It's crazy. But we have consigned
| ourselves to apartment/rental living for our stay here. In
| fact we love our apartment so much here in Wilmersdorf so
| much that we'd love to buy it but the going rate for such a
| place (85 sq meters, 3 rooms, 2 baths) is >500k euros and
| only rising.
| lbrito wrote:
| >Move.
|
| Ah, the pre-covid days. Nowadays you might as well say "move to
| Mars".
| lbrito wrote:
| Wow, surprised by the downvotes. I'm genuinely curious to
| know if this sounds absurd to HN commenters. Are people
| really starting jobs abroad and relocating in these times?
| adithyasrin wrote:
| If anyone is looking for a different job board to find jobs in
| Germany, take a look at this. I'd love to hear feedback!
|
| https://arbeitnow.com
| greatgib wrote:
| All in this article looked standard up to the point where I
| discoved that:
|
| "This is assuming that you are single and not a church member,
| because there is an extra tax (around 9% of your income tax) if
| you belong to one."
|
| Wtf germany?
|
| I have found more info:
|
| https://www.nomadenberlin.com/blog2/german-church-tax-kirche...
|
| it is a complete non-sense to me, if ever you wanted to give, why
| you are not allowed to decide the amount and to who you give?
|
| And 9% is a very important amount in my opinion!
|
| The more crazy, if ever you wanted to change your situation to
| declare yourself not a church member, then you have to fill forms
| with multiple id, and pay 30euros of fee.
| zwieback wrote:
| What's even weirder: church attendance is super low compared
| the US, the average German pays not to go but on the flipside
| churches act like social service arms of the government (meals
| on wheels, eldercare, etc.)
|
| Schools also have religious instruction as a main class,
| although you can opt out. I'm a lifelong atheist but thoroughly
| enjoyed the religion classes, even picked it as a minor in my
| upper division classes. This might have changed, though, I left
| Germany 30yrs ago.
| ben0x539 wrote:
| I grew up in a rural village in Germany. The church operated
| the kindergarten and the retirement home, and ran some youth
| organizations with stuff like kids' summer activities. One
| city over the church ran the hospital, like, to the point
| where they had nuns on-site. I never really looked too deeply
| into it but it always felt weird to me how entangled the
| church is with what is basically treated as public services
| and hence public finances, since they still get to apply
| their religious values to hiring discrimination and that sort
| of thing.
|
| I didn't regularly attend the religion classes, but I did
| once or twice and they gave me candy for memorizing the ten
| commandments. Organized religion is a-ok in my book! (In high
| school, they offered an "ethics" class as alternative to
| denomination-based religion classes, but I guess in the much
| smaller elementary school the student numbers wouldn't have
| justified that.)
| summm wrote:
| The religious service providers are reimbursed by the gov
| and by social insurances just like any other commercial
| provider. They also get to enjoy lesser worker's protection
| laws, e.g. they may fire employees who convert away from
| their religion.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > And 9% is a very important amount in my opinion!
|
| It's important to know what amount that's 9% of. In case of the
| German Kirchensteuer it's 9% of your income tax [0], not of
| your gross income or even after tax income.
|
| [0]
| https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchensteuer_%28Deutschland%2...
| k__ wrote:
| Yes, it's strange.
|
| But many of my millenial friends aren't even baptized, so they
| don't have to pay the tax. Also, you can "leave" a church any
| time you want.
| lucb1e wrote:
| > you can "leave" a church any time you want.
|
| For a small fee and an in-person visit to an office "near"
| you! Or so I've heard (I live in Germany but have never been
| a church member here so I wouldn't know myself).
| k__ wrote:
| Yes.
|
| This sucks especially for people living in the countryside.
|
| But the fee isn't that much compared to what you have to
| pay in taxes.
| summm wrote:
| it's like 30EUR to 50EUR
| jFriedensreich wrote:
| Yes the connection of state and church in germany is really
| creepy to me too. Even if you are not part of a church it is
| backwards for the state to collect church fees at all and
| accordingly forces you to check the checkboxes on nearly all
| official forms what church you belong to. In addition we have
| to remember that Chancellor Merkels party which is one of the
| big two parties is called the "christian democrats" it is also
| totally common for the main news programs of public service
| broadcaster networks to report on the pope and bishops as if
| they were relevant political figures and also broadcast church
| service programs on sundays. The church bells will ring at
| incredible volume on sundays and other days without any mercy
| and everything has to be shut down on sundays, not even grocery
| shopping is possible.
| balfirevic wrote:
| Hah, to a Croatian that sounds fantastic, you can actually opt
| out! Here the government just gives gobs of money to the
| church, which then in turns does the propaganda for the said
| government.
| zmachinaz wrote:
| I always thought that the top talent is actually leaving Germany
| to seek better opportunities elsewhere (already since 20y+). Main
| destinations Switzerland, UK, ...
| [deleted]
| jcfrei wrote:
| Swiss labor market is tiny, so not much capacity there. UK no
| longer in the EU so getting a job there is harder I think. US
| is across the pond, might be too far away for a lot of people.
| So I'd say the labor market is a lot less flexible than you
| might think - lots of top talent still wants to work where they
| grew up / where their family is.
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| It shouldn't be hard at all to get a visa for the UK - the
| main requirement is a job that pays more than 25k GBP I
| think.
|
| Aside from FAANG and Fintechs, I don't think that London is
| that much better than Munich or Berlin, especially after
| rent. The rest of the UK was really bad salary-wise.
| kazen44 wrote:
| this. People are a lot more bound to their local community
| compared to many americans in my experience.
|
| Germany, (and most european countries in general) have far
| more local levels of distinct cultures (dialect, traditions,
| community etc). People do not easily want to leave the place
| they grew up in.
| hiveking wrote:
| Well, someone has to replace them... and for many (most) people
| moving to Germany is an improvement anyways. ;)
| jhirshman wrote:
| We (Uncountable) opened up a Munich office in 2018 and have been
| building an engineering team there after having personnel only in
| SF.
|
| Our experience was that there is a big pool of talent in both
| Munich and Berlin, but the number of high-tech startup jobs is
| much less than you would find in the U.S. coastal corridors.
|
| The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much
| harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name
| out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering
| candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN.
|
| More Info: I recorded a podcast about our experience with the
| Bavarian U.S. development organization:
| https://bavarianusoffices.libsyn.com/accelerating-rd-with-un...
| We're hiring in Munich: https://www.uncountable.com/careers
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| > The job market is much less efficient. I find that it's much
| harder to find about about good candidates and to get our name
| out there as a company. The only reliable source of engineering
| candidates for us in Munich has actually been HN.
|
| What exactly makes it less efficient? Lack of networks?
| donio wrote:
| I guess the first step is to enable Javascript
| thanato0s wrote:
| Leaving in Germany for 6 years. Moved from France. What I'll say
| only concern Berlin.
|
| The interview process in startup can be more draining than that.
| Currently, it's more like 4 / 5 steps with (sometimes) 6+ hours
| homework. Yik.
|
| 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less.
|
| Other than that the cost of living in Germany is quite low (lower
| in Berlin than in the South) and it's a very nice and stable
| country.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| In all fairness, you're describing the startup scene, which has
| weird, and often abusive standards over here.
|
| 60k is not unusual for entry-level people in "established"
| companies (outside of an union's contract).
| estaseuropano wrote:
| Average gross salaries, IT is the second line.
|
| https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1789/umfrage/...
|
| These are not stunning by US standards, but important to
| consider that life costs are very different, e.g. you get
| actually significantly less than this gross salary in your bank
| account but in return you have unemployment insurance, free
| school and university for your kids (or super cheap evening
| masters for you), health insurance with no significant
| deductibles (except dentistry), and a serious pension of which
| you can actually live once you're over 67. Hours are generally
| reasonable and social protections good, outside the worst
| quarters of the big cities you have a very safe environment,
| ...
|
| All in all a good quality of life, but not eye watering
| salaries.
| frockington1 wrote:
| If you are a developer in the US you are probably receiving
| all of that except college tuition. Worth the extra 60K/year
| in my opinion but I see the appeal of having the option to
| live off of social programs if needed
| kazen44 wrote:
| it is also not about you being able to afford those things.
| It is about the rest of society and the people around you
| also being able to afford those things. To allow people
| from poor backgrounds to go to university and contribute on
| the intellectual level they posses, it is so that people
| working on some of the nasties and most dangerous jobs that
| still require doing. (heavy industry, most healthcare jobs)
| can live without the desperation of poverty.
|
| Some people might simply not be in the luck in regards to
| intelligency, luck, wealth etc compared to you, but that
| does not mean they should be held back by it in my opinion.
| jsdwarf wrote:
| The problem with Germany and many parts of Europe is
| Nearshoring. Why overpay a developer at Berlin if Polonia is
| just 200km away? Same goes for Vienna and Hungary. I'm sure
| silicon valley salaries wouldn't skyrocket that much if the
| Mexican border was closer and less restrictive.
| hacliff wrote:
| You should revisit this, in the last couple of years this has
| moved quite a bit, I'd say it's closer to 70-75 now. Obviously
| you'll get more in the states (or even frankfurt!), but it's
| changing rapidly.
|
| There's also some offers in berlin for meaningfully higher, I'm
| just taking a ballpark average for senior.
| DasIch wrote:
| 60k for a senior engineer in Berlin is too low. 75k at the
| lower end is quite reasonable and 80-90k is definitely
| possible, if you're good at what you do.
| luckystarr wrote:
| Startup take themselves way too seriously. That is reflected in
| their interview process. I have the benefit of having a few
| years of experience so I jump to companies which are led by
| people older than 30-35 and have some experience as well.
|
| The interview process there is a lot more sensible. Pay is the
| same.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| > 60k is more for senior developers. Junior get less.
|
| It's always shocking to me how low European SWE compensation
| is. Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do
| accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical
| therapists, etc. make?
|
| I understand the demand side. I think the European tech
| industry is much less successful than its American counterpart,
| and therefore has less money to pay. But I don't understand the
| supply side. Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive
| needed to become a software engineer pursue that field?
| rapsey wrote:
| What you are not taking into account is that health care
| costs compared to the US are almost nothing. So is the cost
| of higher education.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| I don't want to rehash the many long debates about whether
| it's better to be a SWE in Europe or America. There are
| arguments both ways, and it's been pretty well discussed.
|
| My interest is largely orthogonal to that discussion.
| Assuming you're not leaving the continent, why would anyone
| (besides those who are very passionate about software)
| choose to be a European SWE instead of a European actuary?
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| Because I'm extremely unpassionate about being an
| actuary.
| estaseuropano wrote:
| Do you only decide on your job for the expected salary?
| galangalalgol wrote:
| Because money wasn't the deciding factor? When I became a
| programmer we didn't have the term software engineer, and
| we were reviled for our lack of social skills and poorly
| paid. I miss those days. All my coworkers were motivated
| by love of the job. If you wanted to make money you went
| into banking or finance or law.
| kazen44 wrote:
| This argument goes for a lot of jobs btw, not just SWE.
|
| Healthcare is a major example. Most people in the
| netherlands i know who work in healthcare do so because
| they want to help people, not to get rich.
| [deleted]
| querez wrote:
| You can make a very decent living on an SWE salary in
| Germany, and still get to live in a social democracy with a
| stronger emphasis on "social" than the US (i.e., very solid
| public services like transportation, education or health
| care) with a work/life balance that's more strongly tilted in
| favor of "life" than the US, from what I understand. It's a
| trade-off, but it's worth it for many.
| sneak wrote:
| You'd have to tilt a lot more than what Germany does to
| make it worth it; equivalent healthcare in the US is only
| EUR15k in additional costs. (The messy healthcare situation
| the US is famous for only really affects the poor.)
| grw_ wrote:
| It only _directly_ affects the poor- regardless of
| whether I as can afford these things, it benefits me to
| live in a society where everyone (including "the poor")
| is educated to a high standard, is not living in fear of
| financial distress due to minor illness, and is able to
| pursue their vocations out of choice rather than
| necessity
| frockington1 wrote:
| Not too mention most US software engineers probably have
| healthcare provided by an employer
| dsnr wrote:
| You're saying it like everyone can't wait to live in a
| welfare state and having to provide for the "welfare" of
| others. I for one am not looking for anything else than
| good healthcare.
|
| There's nothing "tilted" for life when you struggle to make
| ends meet while paying sky-high rent and having no
| prospects of ever owning your home.
| martin_a wrote:
| > having to provide for the "welfare" of others.
|
| It's only fair. Once you get old, the young and healthy
| will pay for your hospital stay, too, through the
| insurance mix.
|
| But we could also just let you die because you can't pay
| the treatment.
|
| You'll have to decide, there's no free cake in the end.
| dsnr wrote:
| I pay for my own healthcare insurance, as healthcare is
| not free in Germany. So your points are invalid as far as
| I'm concerned.
| martin_a wrote:
| Ah, that's fine.
|
| Everybody will also pay for all the infrastructure you
| might be using and the others not.
| dsnr wrote:
| Non-welfare states also have infrastructure, so no worry
| about that.
| martin_a wrote:
| You know that there's more to the German social insurance
| system than public health insurance that you profit from
| now or later.
|
| So it's just lame to frame it like that's the only thing.
| Rompect wrote:
| Literally "Who would build the roads" lmao
| martin_a wrote:
| Nah, there's much more than roads in a welfare state.
|
| There's a nationwide pension fund, unemployment
| "insurance", long-term care insurance and what not. All
| of this is cross-financed in a mix by everybody who's
| paying into it.
|
| Also: Lots of people switch from private health insurance
| back to public health insurance once they get old,
| because then costs are rising. A welfare state also
| supports those who have "suddenly" become poor so they
| had to make that switch... ;-)
| alkonaut wrote:
| > Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to
| become a software engineer pursue that field?
|
| Instead of... what? It's not like you can make 2x the salary
| easily by instead becoming something else. Salaries are
| pretty flat, if you want to make money you should invest in
| somethig or have your own company.
|
| Also: I'm not sure it's' a good idea to pick jobs based on
| salaries. It's good to not worry about money at all (which
| almost no SWEs' need to). After that I'd recommend pursuing
| sommething one finds interesting.
|
| Edit: I think there is a cultural difference in the US where
| one is expected to aggregate net worth/savings throughout
| one's career, for many reasons (ability to send kids to
| better schools, saving for rainy day e.g. sickness, ...). In
| a welfare state I don't have that priority. I wouldn't switch
| to a job paying 2x the money unless it's really a interesting
| job! Because there is almost nothing that 2x the money would
| do to my lifestyle, the future prospects or security of my
| family etc.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| > In a welfare state I don't have that priority
|
| I just don't believe that's true. Many, many more Germans
| immigrate to Switzerland, the UK or even America than vice
| versa. That's primarily because professional salaries in
| the latter are higher. That strongly suggests that at least
| some non-negligible proportion of German professionals care
| about compensation.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Obviously there are tons of people who _want_ to do this.
| But the difference I think is that fewer people feel the
| need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their
| career.
|
| Another angle I didn't think of is the work-hard-retire-
| early mindset which of course means that a) you work hard
| and expect high comp for it b) if you do long hours and
| have little holiday, you have a higher interest in
| retiring early, which requires lots of capital.
|
| My SWE salary is with 6w holidays, haven't done many
| workweeks over 40h yet in a 20 year career. I don't just
| expect to work to 70, I want to work to 70. My work life
| balance means I have more than enough time for gardening
| and travel without retiring. Retiring at 70 requires a
| lot less capital than doing so at 55.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| > But the difference I think is that fewer people feel
| the need or expectation to aggregate wealth over their
| career.
|
| German savings rates are 50% higher than America.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gross_
| nat...
| alkonaut wrote:
| Germans are probably more successful at saving! I do
| think though that if you asked "is it important to have a
| well paying job" or "important to retire rich" I think
| more would agree in the US (although few would succeed).
| I don't have any numbers for this hypothetical interview
| question though.
| imtringued wrote:
| Weak euro -> trade surplus -> Germany earns more than it
| spends -> savings -> lends money to importing nations
|
| and the cycle repeats
| zeku wrote:
| This is a great point. I'm American and my girlfriend and I
| make close to the same amount of money. We have recently
| decided to live(buy a home etc.) off of just one salary and
| completely invest the other salary because the penalty for
| getting sick and losing your job in the USA is so high that
| we don't feel comfortable spending most of both salaries.
|
| ALSO, this is only possible because we each make 150% of
| the median household income in our city. Our country is
| awful for the average person, it really really is.
|
| Oh yeah forgot to mention the combined $90,000 in debt we
| have in student loans(so we can get these jobs) and car
| payments(so we can drive and exist in society).
|
| It's just such a stupid way to organize a society...
|
| To drive this point back to the conversation at hand--these
| American pressures are what drive the mindset that
| dominates most of any English speaking dev forum.
| dagw wrote:
| _Is it similar for other skilled professionals? What do
| accountants, lawyers, civil engineers, pilots, physical
| therapists, etc. make?_
|
| In aggregate software engineers don't make less than any of
| those fields if that is what you are asking.
|
| _Why would anyone with the intelligence and drive needed to
| become a software engineer pursue that field?_
|
| Because it's pretty fun, relatively easy if you have knack
| for it, easier to find a job, and on the whole quite well
| paid and comfortable work.
| carlmr wrote:
| I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany. I
| don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt or
| Munich this would be too little to get a senior developer.
|
| Most of the other professions pay less. From the list you
| gave, and the people I know, I would assume the sorting is
| roughly:
|
| * physical therapists (can't go much lower in pay)
|
| * pilots (there are just way too many, except for those in
| old contracts at the big airlines they are almost paid like
| bus drivers)
|
| * accountants (usually a normal salary, but nothing special)
|
| * civil engineers / software engineers roughly on the same
| level, although the latter has an easier time finding a job
|
| Lawyers and doctors earn a lot more than engineers (at least
| looking at my friends in these fields), but they usually also
| work more, leading to a similar hourly rate.
|
| One thing you have to account for in Germany vs the US:
|
| * Much higher job stability.
|
| * Most people work 35-40h a week and never do unpaid
| overtime.
|
| * 6 weeks paid vacation per year is normal.
|
| * You almost never get called into work on the weekend.
|
| * CoL isn't as insane as in SF or Seattle, so your salary
| buys you a decent life.
|
| * No copays if you get chronic conditions, cancer or some
| such. So you don't need to save up for a medical catastrophe.
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| > I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany.
|
| exactly. I made that as a Junior in my first full-time job
| in Munich in 2000 already. Then moved on to freelancing and
| for the next decade never invoiced less than EUR 12K/month
| (average was actually EUR ~16K). I did a lot of hours and
| paid a lot of tax but it also got me fast cars, holidays in
| Italy, Austria or Switzerland (just for the weekends) and a
| nanny to help look after my kids. And I wasn't even an
| outlier since anyone who I worked with (often via places
| like Hays or Allgeier Group etc) was on pretty much the
| same.
|
| What I've noticed in the recent years (I moved around 2009)
| is there has been a push to "Arbeitnehmeruberlassung",
| which is basically a racket where the outsourcing agency
| hires you out to their clients, they skim the margins and
| leave the employees with a crap salary. They sit in their
| clients office and are second class employees. When the
| project ends they're moved on to the next company if
| they're lucky or are asked to come in to the office (not on
| the client site but the place where they organize this type
| of slavery), then they get to call prospective clients and
| beg for jobs that they themselves have to do. It's surreal
| and idiotic but it's peoples fault for putting up with it
| instead of just freelancing and writing their own invoices.
| catdog wrote:
| Freelancers in Germany also have a problem which is
| called "Scheinselbststandigkeit". If you do too much work
| for only one client (there are no clear rules to follow)
| the public social security system might decide you are to
| be treated like an employee and your client suddenly has
| to pay pension insurance and health ensurance for the
| time you worked for them. Companies fear that because
| it's a huge chunk of money and to my knowledge this also
| contributed a lot to "Arbeitnehmeruberlassung" spreading
| so much into highly skilled positions.
| cosmodisk wrote:
| The same is the UK with so called IR35, no clear rules,
| grey areas all over the place, absolute shit show for
| freelancers and contractors.
| rurban wrote:
| Only if your company has a base in Germany. In my case I
| worked remote for a US-only company as
| Scheinselbststandiger, got the full US rates (ie 3x
| higher than german rates), and paid normal insurance.
| They had to pay nothing into the German SS system.
| arximboldi wrote:
| May I ask what's your specialty and daily rate?
| jamil7 wrote:
| > I mean you can definitely earn more than 60k in Germany.
| I don't know about Berlin though. In Stuttgart, Frankfurt
| or Munich this would be too little to get a senior
| developer.
|
| You can do it in Berlin if you go the freelancer route but
| that comes with it's own complications in Germany.
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| > but that comes with it's own complications in Germany.
|
| like what? being able to do your own tax and get refunds
| for all your expenses the way you should? an accountant
| who does once a year your "EkSt Erklaerung" costs you
| anywhere between 600-1000 (once a year) and it saves you
| anywhere between 5K - 25K depending on what your year was
| like and the expenses you had.
| distances wrote:
| They probably mean the hassle of monthly taxes and
| finding multiple clients per year.
| jamil7 wrote:
| Yeah monthly taxes for the first year is a pain although
| it goes down to quarterly after that. It also makes it
| harder to get a mortgage and that you will likely not be
| picked when looking to rent a flat over employed people.
| There are also uncertainties around how long and how much
| you can work for a single client without causing issues
| for your client, although I usually don't do contracts
| longer than 6mo. I think it still is far better than
| working salaried, at least for me.
| distances wrote:
| Definitely, I'm also freelancing in Germany and wouldn't
| go back to salaried for now. I didn't know the details of
| the multiple client requirement for my first year, let's
| see if that comes back to bite me at some point.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Most of the perks you listed like 6 week vacation and 35h
| workweeks are not the norm, not even for devs, but
| exception that some good companies offer.
|
| 25 vacation days per year and 40h plus overtime included
| sometimes are more the current norm for most dev positions
| on the market now.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| While I agree that software developers in Europe are
| heavily underpaid (compared to what US developers) get, I
| think we are compensated just fine in terms of vacation
| and working time. In my experience, 30 vacation day per
| year IS the norm. And at most 40h/week of work (it's
| something in which European companies "are better" than
| US ones: they don't work as much as Americans).
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Not true, 25 vacation days per year is the norm in
| Austria and most of Europe, anything above that and
| you're in a privileged position, and most dev contracts
| have statements where any potential overtime is covered
| by you salary and not paid extra. And overtime does
| happen especially during crunches for releases (yeah, i
| know management sucks but it sucks everywhere I looked in
| Austria).
|
| Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h/week no-
| overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know where
| to move next.
| dagw wrote:
| _Maybe you can show me where I can find these 40h /week
| no-overtime with 30 days/year vacation jobs so I know
| where to move next._
|
| That describes every job I've had in Sweden over last 6-7
| years or so. But then again I've made a conscious effort
| to void some of the 'crunchier' industries (like game
| studios and certain startups), which admittedly does mean
| getting paid a bit less.
| yardie wrote:
| I worked in France and vacation was 28 days for us, 2.333
| days/month.
|
| Overtime does happen but French law requires I be able to
| recover my time (RTT). In my experience there is a mad
| rush to use up that time before 31/12 so you'll see an
| additional holiday season around Nov-Dec. Else, it goes
| away and that time is lost to the fiscal year.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| Sorry, I don't know about Austria. But at least in my
| experience in Germany, France, and the Netherlands I
| always got around 28-30 days of vacation per year.
|
| Overtime is perhaps more about the company and oneself,
| but in my experience is something you decide to do it or
| not. If you do it companies pay for overtime. I never
| done overtime (because companies pay pennies for it :) )
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| > _Overtime is perhaps more about the company and
| oneself_
|
| Well that was my point. There's no EU law that prevents
| you from having to do overtime.
| martin_a wrote:
| Well, in Germany there's the Arbeitszeitgesetz ("work
| time law") which handles some of those things. I think
| unpaid overtime is not really common in Germany,
| especially in "better jobs".
|
| Also agreements with trade unions etc. take care of a
| sane base-level of holidays and payment.
|
| Germany is also "heavy regulated" in the sense that good
| people will just choose a job with a competitor who gives
| you 30 days of free time and paid overtime, although he
| might pay less.
|
| I think work-life-balance tips slightly over to the
| worker in a welfare state, because you can choose to earn
| 100 Euro/month a less but have more holidays AND still
| have not to worry about paying doctor bills.
| mgraupner wrote:
| 30 days of holidays are pretty easy to come by, 35h
| however is rarely the case. 40h and more is more or less
| the norm here.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| Those numbers are normal in the US too for embedded or game
| software. Faang salaries are at least 20% higher than other
| software jobs and counting stocks it can be almost triple a
| salary for a SWE that is outside the west coast SV culture
| and isn't a quant. For games and some other interesting
| problems it is a matter of non monetary compensation. But I
| have no idea why people writing hardware drivers or engine
| control software make so much less than someone writing some
| web back end that is mostly gluing bits together. Even MS
| pays so much less than Amazon its bizarre.
| estaseuropano wrote:
| You also have 38h/weeks, 20+ holiday days per year, actual
| free weekends, many free public services, affordable
| healthcare with fair insurance that doesn't try to bankrupt
| you, ... So it balances out. How much do you have to save per
| month for that 200k health emergency in the US? In Germany -
| 0EUR.
|
| If you want to get rich either be a founder or go to the US
| for a chance at that. If you want a good and happy life with
| private time your average western European country is great.
| dcolkitt wrote:
| Yeah, I should have been clearer. I'm not trying to
| litigate the US vs. Europe debate, which I think has been
| discussed many times. My question more was about _within_
| Europe, the relative attractiveness of software vs other
| professional fields.
|
| Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the US.
| Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the US
| equivalent. That would suggest that other skilled
| professions must make significantly more than SWEs.
|
| For example in the US, bankers or lawyers are roughly on
| par with high-end SWEs. I'm would assume German bankers and
| lawyers are making well more than 60k. If that's the case,
| what incentive would talented Germans have to pursue
| software instead of other higher-paid careers? (I could be
| wrong on my assumptions, maybe skilled professionals in
| Germany are just much less compensated relative to the
| median worker in general.)
| dagw wrote:
| _Median incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than the
| US. Yet SWE compensation seems to be 50%+ lower than the
| US equivalent._
|
| Most numbers I can find via quick googling seems to put
| the median annual salary for a SWE in the US at around
| EUR75-78k and EUR55k in Germany. That is pretty close to
| the 25% number you quoted.
| distances wrote:
| All skilled professions have lower pay in Europe, there
| isn't a "get rich" path. Doctors usually earn more but
| nowhere near US levels.
|
| For me, I can say I didn't consider salary when choosing
| my field. It's just not a common concern, you're expected
| to study something you're good at and would enjoy doing.
| Medical and law were definitely not even remote thoughts
| for me.
|
| It was a happy accident that software engineers are paid
| so well (relatively). I suppose I just assumed all MSc
| fields are roughly equal and quite acceptable as far as
| salary goes.
| kazen44 wrote:
| Also, it is not just about me being able to afford a
| proper lifestyle. I want the people with less paying jobs
| which are still considered vital (caretakers for
| instance) to also have a nice life without too much worry
| or abhorrent poverty.
|
| The US is very individualistic in comparison, and in my
| opinion it is not doing well in this regard. Things like
| crime, violence etc all increase when people are pushed
| into poverty.
|
| Wealth should not be the absolute measure of a person in
| society, because that would mean the market would decide
| the value a person brings to society, which is the wrong
| take on things in my opinion. Mainly because not
| everything should be handled by the free market.
| (healthcare for instance, should not be dictated by
| market forces).
| distances wrote:
| Well said. Obviously I wouldn't mind earning more, it
| goes without saying. But I do appreciate the fact that my
| siblings, nieces and nephews can have a humane life at
| whatever their profession is, and can study to their full
| potential regardless of their parents' income. And that
| my parents and grandparents can have a dignified life at
| old age, with proper care and without fear of ending
| destitute.
| [deleted]
| venj wrote:
| It's very hard to compare European and US salaries: in a lot
| of European countries, you have social security, unemployment
| and retirement coverage provided by the state and financed by
| taxes on the salary.
|
| So you have a much lower net amount of cash, but you get real
| benefits that would be part of your negociation in the US.
| dnate wrote:
| I just got a 6 figure non-senior position in Berlin. Sent out
| close to 100 applications and went into interview processes at
| around 30 places. 80-90k is definitely doable if you are good
| and take your time (I was looking for 3-4 months).
|
| You need to filter beforehand for salary. Most places expect to
| pay around 60-70k max. But getting the higher salary is more a
| matter of finding the company willing to pay it than just
| "being good".
|
| As one CTO said during salary negotiations: "There are a lot of
| 100k devs working 60k jobs"
| jean-malo wrote:
| Do you just select companies competing to hire against global
| companies ?
|
| I can't see a mid-size startup / domestic company needing to
| pay 100k to get the devs they need, at least from my
| experience in Europe.
| hobofan wrote:
| > mid-size startup / domestic company
|
| Actually, mid-size startups (the ones that are more tech-
| focused than usual) that have just closed a funding round,
| and AI divisions of automotive startups (so domestic
| companies) are the two biggest groups I receive 6 figure
| offers from (based in Berlin).
| brahyam wrote:
| If you don't mind sharing. What's the position title that you
| got/were searching for?.
|
| I live in Berlin and I've never seen even a 6 figure senior
| software engineer position.
| ben0x539 wrote:
| I personally know people have made 6 figures in non-senior
| positions in Berlin working for German subsidiaries of
| multi-national companies, just "Software Development
| Engineer". I don't know if that happens through job listing
| offering 6 figure salaries or entering at a lower salary
| and getting raises.
| tilolebo wrote:
| Very curious about your role and the company profile.
|
| I'm also in Berlin with a 6 figure comp but I have 10+ years
| experience (DevOps role) and the company is not German.
| jsdwarf wrote:
| Maybe it is an "ALDI" job. Aldi is known for overpaying their
| shopkeepers by about 30%, but expects them to do the work of
| at least 2 shopkeepers at other stores. Still makes sense
| from a business side.
| [deleted]
| the_only_law wrote:
| What's the chance someone with experience, but no education could
| get a job in an EU country. I've always assumed that that's off
| the table for people like myself.
| aeyes wrote:
| The same as in other countries: Your biggest problem is going
| to be getting a work visa which is usually tied to higher
| education.
| pyjug wrote:
| The salaries in Germany for engineers are astoundingly low. Good
| engineers from India (I'm Indian working in SV) often ask me if
| it's worth migrating to Germany since US immigration is so hard.
|
| The answer is absolutely not -- you can easily make 70k USD in
| India as a decent mid-level engineer which is the same as
| Germany. And you get to live like a king in your own country,
| don't have to learn German, put up with racism etc. In fact, a
| lot of US companies hiring in India pay more in India than
| Germany! I know a couple friends making ~200k in Amazon India at
| 8-10 years of experience.
| dzonga wrote:
| > you can easily make 70k USD in India as a decent mid-level
| engineer
|
| not that I know anything about Indian tech companies but please
| don't say that compensation is at FAANG companies. because
| those are not representative of the industry in general.
| Otherwise why would India be known for cheap dev's if Mid-
| levels can easily earn 70k.
| pyjug wrote:
| Also, to caution folks who think India is only a place for
| "cheap devs", there is a perfect confluence of factors
| happening right now that is driving salaries up and
| incentivizing good engineers to stay back in India --
| immigration restrictions, remote hiring and a domestic
| startup scene. Some startups who are building for the
| US/international market are all but Indian, they only have a
| US HQ for ops, sales etc.
|
| This hasn't gone unnoticed by investors. See PG's recent
| tweet -
| https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1381669057548713984?s=20
|
| The US runs the risk of being "China'ed" again, in a
| different field -- this is not outsourcing anymore, this is
| real competitive software products being built in India.
| pyjug wrote:
| Indian tech salaries are very bi-modal. I'm not talking about
| body shops here - I'm talking about capable engineers who can
| get hired in SV, though not necessarily at FAANG. Think tier
| 2/3 cos. These engineers know their worth and want to
| maximize their earning potential. If it were easy to
| immigrate to the US they would choose SV in a heartbeat, but
| are looking for alternatives. My advice to them it's either
| SV or stay back in India, it's certainly not worth
| immigrating to Germany (I don't know about other EU
| countries, only have first hand experience in Germany)
| dzonga wrote:
| It would also be helpful if you post example job posts etc
| or salary reports etc rather than explain the dynamics.
| Though I agree the dynamics of remote work have being
| beneficial to capable engineers everywhere not just indian
| ones.
| closeparen wrote:
| That's still a $40k discount from the median US wage of
| $110k.
|
| https://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-
| technology/...
| [deleted]
| Rompect wrote:
| As a German, the sex and especially origin of my coworkers is
| very important to me so thank you for mentioning it!
| _def wrote:
| Is my perspective skewed or are part time tech jobs pretty rare
| in Germany?
| adithyasrin wrote:
| Part time jobs are usually for students, since they can mostly
| work only 20 hours a week
| scanny wrote:
| My 2 cents: Just finished my first month in Munich as a Web Dev
| after moving from Australia.
|
| Company is great and colleagues are lovely. German bureaucracy
| sucks but apart from that it has been an experience of 'the more
| things change the more they stay the same' when it comes to the
| job and culture.
|
| Honestly linkedin has had the best results for jobs, that and
| using a template for CVS and cover letters.
|
| There's plenty of work and plenty of good companies, just keep
| applying and keep the effort in each application low.
|
| I interviewed the same here as I did anywhere else, job is at an
| English speaking company and my German level is still only at
| basics but that's something to build when you arrive.
|
| Just apply from stability overseas and have them fly you out and
| sort the visa, don't take a big risk at a time like this
| otherwise.
|
| Taxes and, as Allendoerfer rightly corrected me, the various
| social securities (unemployment insurance, healthcare, pension
| ect.) which you benefit from are almost half of your income,
| living expenses are high in some cities (Munich rent is mental).
| 58,000 euros is the normal minimum for a blue card, lower for
| tech jobs, but I would advise not taking less otherwise you'll
| have serious stress by not having a decent income on top of the
| cultural change and no support network.
| codr7 wrote:
| I would consider moving to Munich just to have this place
| around the corner, simply awesome:
|
| https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g187309-d12010...
| ramraj07 wrote:
| Salads? What's so special?
| codr7 wrote:
| Everything about the place; the food, the space, the people
| who work there, the music; they have exceptionally good
| taste.
| z3ncyberpunk wrote:
| Nothing at all.
| martin_a wrote:
| Good to hear that you like it. Munich can be lovely in the
| summer, you'll surely enjoy it. Also: Enjoying a real bavarian
| Biergarten is something I really look for after Corona.
| scanny wrote:
| After seeing the size of them when empty I really am keen to
| see them in full swing. It's beautiful here, touring by bike
| has been fantastic, it must be amazing when everything has
| leaves!
| allendoerfer wrote:
| To add to that: Taxes are not 50%, but there are mandatory
| social insurances you have to pay: Health insurance (+elderly
| care insurance), unemployment, pension system. They make up the
| biggest chunk for low to medium sized incomes.
|
| Your employer also pays into these insurances for you, which
| does not show up on your job-offer. So effectively you get 20%
| more than advertised.
| comodore_ wrote:
| It's a total of about 50% in social security contributions
| AND taxes. Assuming you are single and have no kids and your
| gross salary is 100k, you pay about 15k in social security
| contributions and 29k in income tax. And additionally 2.5k in
| church tax if you're catholic or lutheran.
| Tarsul wrote:
| thats roundabout 45% but yeah. Actually high earners pay
| less taxes than those stuck in the middle (like 40k to 60k)
| because after a certain threshold (i think around 60k) your
| contributions to health care (which is until then around
| 15% of your income) don't rise anymore (unless you have a
| very expensive private health care plan but thats on you
| ;)).
| AlchemistCamp wrote:
| > And additionally 2.5k in church tax if you're catholic or
| lutheran.
|
| Woah, what? How does that work and why?
| shellfishgene wrote:
| Well, we don't take separation of church and state as
| seriously as we should. The state collects the taxes for
| the churches, it's around 9% of your income tax. This
| happens automatically if you're baptized, and you have to
| leave the church if you don't want to pay this, which
| also happens at a government office.
| checkyoursudo wrote:
| All your questions mostly answered, my unknown internet
| friend.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_tax
| geraneum wrote:
| As a Blue Card holder, upon registration in town hall,
| they ask about your religion and if you don't want to pay
| church tax, you have to say you have no religions.
| Germans also can get out of the church "in an official
| sense" and stop paying that tax.
| MeinBlutIstBlau wrote:
| I still show up as a parishioner at my old church. I
| haven't been in over 6 years.
| scanny wrote:
| Yes that is true, I keep seeing the chunks of my pay go and
| forget that there is a good reason (except for the TV
| licence!) I'll edit my post
| monster_group wrote:
| What's the tech interview process like in Germany? Do they ask
| you to do LeetCode style problems on whiteboard or Google Doc?
| scanny wrote:
| Varies quite a bit. For me it was just a verbal interview
| with technical questions about how I would approach different
| problems. I sent a link to my GitHub beforehand and they were
| happy with what they saw so there wasn't anything practical.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| > To sum up: if you are single and opt for "live cool and don't
| care about expenses" style, then an average developer salary will
| be enough (it might be harder if you have a family to feed).
|
| > On the other hand, if you choose to go the student-like route
| (living in Wohngemeinschaft and not eating out too much), you can
| easily manage with just 1.200-1.500 EUR per month, and save the
| majority of your salary.
|
| I know it may be an unpopular opinion, but saving 18K Euro/year
| leads you nowhere (first world problems, I know) if you would
| like to buy a decent house (not flat) in the suburbs of a medium-
| size German (or western European) city. Decent houses cost around
| 450K Euro (or more).
|
| Edit: Let's start a revolution :)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26903194
| rkachowski wrote:
| Typically you'd be saving for a deposit on a house, rather than
| the full amount.
| dkyc wrote:
| Why's that? Saving 18k for 5 years would yield you 90kEUR,
| which would be an appropriate 20% down payment on the 450kEUR
| house.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| In 5 years, that house might cost a bit more than 450k.
| adrianN wrote:
| Or it might cost a bit less.
| imtringued wrote:
| Well, assuming everything goes according to plan we are
| reaching the peak and housing will have to go down again.
| I don't know when this will happen, it could happen
| within 5 years, it could happen no earlier than 10 years.
| wink wrote:
| Prices have beeen going up steadily for the last 10-15
| years. Maybe there was a single dip in 2008-2010.
| fnord77 wrote:
| not everywhere. and there's some evidence that big corps
| are buying up houses and becoming mega-rentiers. always a
| chance these companies could collapse and then the market
| would be flooded with houses as they liquidate.
| adrianN wrote:
| Past performance of an asset is no guarantee for future
| performance.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Especially when the populational trends imply that demand
| for housing will go down on the distant future. Future
| performance is almost guaranteed to decouple from past
| performance at some point.
| wink wrote:
| Your points are technically correct, the best kind of
| correct.
|
| I'm not looking at any undetermined future point in time,
| if I'm ranting about housing prices it might be not
| unrealistic that I'd like to buy one in the next few
| years - and I've seen absolutely zero indication that the
| prices would suddenly drop by 20-40% to the point where
| I'd call them reasonable, like 15 years ago.
| netrus wrote:
| This chart should be far more prominent than it is in
| most discussions about housing in Germany:
|
| https://www.interhyp.de/ratgeber/was-muss-ich-
| wissen/zinsen/...
|
| The incredible increase in house prices tracks a dramatic
| decline in interest rates. Interest rates were at 1% last
| year, below inflation! I have no idea how interest rates
| will change in the next few years, but I do know they
| will not decline at the same rate as over the past 10
| years. As soon as they go up, the prices will decline.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Huh?
|
| Things will be different on the far future. The exact
| point when it will change is a matter of speculation, and
| all the warnings about timing the market apply. You
| implied a high certainty that nothing will change, ever,
| and talked about 15 years things.
|
| There is a high likelihood that nothing will change in 5
| years (even though COVID19 reduces those odds a lot,
| because a bunch of people just died). And there is very
| high likelihood that things will change a lot in 40
| years. Time things at your own risk.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| I don't care about past performance, I'm only looking at
| the future and unless there will be a future building
| boom in the cities to increase supply(spoiler alert, it
| won't because a million reasons) and unless there will be
| a sharp drop in internal and external immigration to the
| cities with jobs, prices will keep rising.
| snidane wrote:
| Have you exhausted all options for why prices will only
| increase?
|
| I can see a scenario in which inflation rises and
| increased mortgage rates deflate the current overvalued
| housing market.
| imtringued wrote:
| It's already rising in the US, if the central bank
| figures out how to meet the 2% goal year over year it
| will raise the interest rates in a few years. Probably
| not before 2024 though.
| tdumitrescu wrote:
| When I bought a 250KEUR apartment in the Netherlands, my
| total cash outlay (down payment plus costs) was around
| 40KEUR. Anecdotal point supporting those pointing out that
| owning a 450KEUR home in Europe is indeed still within reach
| for someone saving a modest amount each year.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| Let's do some simple (and probably wrong, but hey) maths:
|
| - House price: 450K euro
|
| - In Europe you usually need around 30% of the house in cash
| (20% for down payment and 10% for paperwork and the like).
| This means you need 135K euro saved. Saving 18K euro/year =>
| you need to save money for 7 years
|
| - Now you get a mortage for the 70% of the 450K euro (315K
| euro). Now depending on how much you want to pay every month,
| we get different outcomes. Let's say you are willing to pay
| 1500 euro/month of mortage: this means (roughly) you will be
| paying your house for around 17 years
|
| - This all implies you will be earning 60K euro (or more) per
| year over the next 24 years of your life. Let's say you are
| at this moment 25 years old, so you'll get your house paid
| when you are 50.
|
| This is the panorama for people who are supposed to be the
| top 10% tier in the society (in terms of gross income) in a
| country like Germany (but applies to any other western
| European country as well). Not bad, but not good either.
| hobofan wrote:
| > top 10% tier in the society (in terms of gross income)
|
| According to this statistic[0], that should be 39.1%
| (numbers are for net income, but top two brackets should
| fit 60k gross income). In a household with two working
| people that both have semi-decent jobs you'll have that
| (and with tech job + basically any other job, you'll beat
| that).
|
| > Let's say you are at this moment 25 years old, so you'll
| get your house paid when you are 50.
|
| Yes, that sounds about right, and from what I can gather
| isn't too different from how it worked in my parents
| generation. What do you expect? That you can pay off a
| house in 10 years?
|
| [0]: https://www.bpb.de/nachschlagen/zahlen-und-
| fakten/soziale-si...
| fock wrote:
| my grandparents both were classical workers (so
| apprenticeship for men, nothing for women) and bought
| their houses, paid off 'til their 50ies (middle income
| bracket I guess). My parents were academics (probably
| upper third income bracket), paid off their house 'til
| their 50ies (my mother converted to housewife after
| buying the house!). Now, if I were to buy the house my
| parents live in, I'd have to pay around ~1.5MEUR I guess.
| Not sure how I should do that (with a partner and kids)
| 'til 50, even being a tad higher in income than my
| parents.
|
| That being said: after the war, housing was destroyed and
| had to be rebuilt, nowadays it's there already (and more
| than enough if I look at my family and others around us).
| The only problem is that now one doesn't need the lower
| third of incomes to build it and so it has become a
| playground for financialization games which basically
| make sure that wealth will steadily be reallocated one
| family with too many kids at a time...
| erinnh wrote:
| Thats wrong. At least right now.
|
| 10% down payment is quite common currently in Germany for a
| house.
| [deleted]
| maaaaattttt wrote:
| Well the money still needs to be paid at some point. If
| you go the 10% deposit route, you will get slightly worse
| interest rates and overall higher monthly payments.
| Payments that you need to maintain for ~20 years...
| jsdwarf wrote:
| 10% is the absolute minimum and doesn't buy you anything
| of the house, it just covers the legal and realtor fees.
| lbrito wrote:
| I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of salary
| distribution.
|
| If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what kind
| of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Engineering is always a boom/bust. Germany doesn't have local
| industries that have the need for the wacky salaries being
| paid in some verticals.
|
| You might remember American Standard advertising toilets that
| we re-engineered for efficiency by aerospace engineers.
| There's a reason why late-90s aerospace engineers pivoted to
| toilet architecture. (Hint: Not a passion for the throne.)
| almoehi wrote:
| The general assumption you make is wrong - it's not like in
| North americas. There are eng jobs in the top bracket, but
| the big majority isn't.
| cortesoft wrote:
| People who already own another home they are selling.
| Traubenfuchs wrote:
| Lawyers, consultants, doctors, couples and don't forget about
| those who inherit some money and those who are happy with a
| 300k single apartment.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > If not even this is enough to pursue home ownership, what
| kind of people are able to afford a house? Honest question.
|
| Yeah, nobody can. At least not without a huge mortgage.
| That's why house prices are one of the biggest political
| issues in Europe.
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| _> what kind of people are able to afford a house_
|
| The kind where both partners have top jobs (less common) or
| receive inheritance (most common).
| mustafa_pasi wrote:
| > I assume engineering positions are on the top bracket of
| salary distribution.
|
| No, not really. Unlike in the US, other professions still
| make more to much more. Engineering pays same to slightly
| more. Tenured professors make more than most SWEs, but there
| are some SWEs who make more than that. Lawyers and notaries
| make much more. Doctors of course make much more. I bet
| architects make more as well but this one I have not checked.
| Any credentialed financial job makes at least as much.
| Managers in any industry will make more than any typical SWE
| (being a manager is how you typically break into the six
| figure range). But to answer your question, mortgages are
| affordable and most people rent.
| Tarsul wrote:
| if we're talking Germany then architects don't earn a lot.
| Some do but many of them earn less than people in
| administration in big companies (so less than 60k).
| Mechanical engineering and IT (Engineers) earn
| comparatively high in Germany; yes doctors and professors
| earn more (which is not surprising, or maybe only to people
| in SV?) but aside from that you don't have a lot of people
| who earn more. Actually, most lawyers earn less than 60kEUR
| (seems pretty much like a winner takes all market). If
| you're looking from an American perspective the wages of
| teachers in Germany are impressive (especially since they
| don't pay much in taxes), around 60kEUR (and dont have to
| pay 15% in health care nor 10% for their pension like usual
| workers!) so they are easily in the top 20% wages for
| Germany.
| rm445 wrote:
| A couple who are both in a good income bracket?
| estaseuropano wrote:
| Price/sq meter varies between 100-2000EUR, so it really
| depends on your region, lifestyle and choices. If you have a
| normal salary (or both working) you can afford a small house.
| Mortgages also tend to be reasonable in Germany.
| archi42 wrote:
| I think the 100 is a typo? :P [as in "... varies between
| 100-2000EUR..."]
|
| I'm currently looking for a house in SW Germany, near the
| french border. I'd be happy if prices would max out at
| 2000EUR/m2. I can not renovate a full building (both time
| and skill-wise), so - including necessary improvements -
| houses we're looking at start at about 1800EUR/m2 and
| surpass 2200EUR/m2. And we're not talking about "center of
| town" here or even "built after 1990". More like
| "neighboring municipality" or "no way I move so close to
| the Autobahn Zubringer". Obviously Munich or Berlin are
| much more expensive, and "middle of nowhere" (like in "also
| no or little tech jobs") is cheaper.
| corty wrote:
| I don't think it is a typo. There are areas out in the
| sticks where nobody wants to move (because no internet,
| no mobile reception, no public transport, next city is
| 50km away, next supermarket 20km), where 100EUR/m2 is
| possible.
|
| But anything marginally close to a railway track,
| Autobahn or federal road or any bigger city at all is far
| more expensive.
| mgraupner wrote:
| A flat in a horrible region of Regensburg (a very nice and
| very old Roman town in Bavaria) right beneath the rail
| tracks costs 5000-6000EUR/m2 (they will have nice interior
| though). And Regensburg is not even a high income city for
| software engineers in Germany.
|
| If you do not inherit a good amount of money or earn
| incredible well (like >100.000EUR) you will forever be a
| "poor" man in Germany or you can sell your soul for a house
| and pray that you earn enough till you retire to pay back
| your mortgage. Taxes are just too high and income too
| low...
| koevet wrote:
| > Taxes are just too high and income too low...
|
| This. I'm a freelance here in Berlin and I pay 950
| Euro/month for the (public) health insurance. The
| insurance covers only myself, while my kids are covered
| by my wife's health insurance, which is another 800
| Euro/month (half covered by the employer).
|
| Note that before moving to Germany I was living in
| Switzerland, where I had a private insurance that was WAY
| cheaper that the German public one and had all sort of
| perks.
| volta83 wrote:
| > 100-2000EUR
|
| Munich, 28m2 flat, 1 room, built in 2019, price 720.000
| EUR, location: right under the train tracks between inner
| and middle ring.
|
| That's 25.000 EUR/m2 for a hole under the train tracks.
|
| Old 100m2 flats between midle and inner rings go in munich
| for 1.5 million EUR if they are old and destroyed, and well
| over 2 million EUR if they are relatively new (2.5-3
| million).
|
| That's 15.000/m2 for old buildings requiring repairs and
| 25.000-30.000 EUR/m2 for new buildings.
|
| So at least for Munich you are off by more than a 150x
| factor.
|
| Saving 20k/year doesn't even give you 1m2 per year.
| csomar wrote:
| 1- By living with roommates and renting a room (sometimes
| half a room).
|
| 2- By taking painfully long commutes to cheaper locations.
|
| 3- By living with parents/partner. This is not an option for
| most people, but probably what makes moving to a job a
| difficult situation.
|
| > what kind of people are able to afford a house?
|
| Apparently, half of Germany can't afford a home.
|
| - https://www.statista.com/statistics/246355/home-ownership-
| ra...
| imtringued wrote:
| Renting was a pretty good deal in Germany. Urbanization has
| caught up and its a terrible deal in major cities.
| disabled wrote:
| Yeah, but you can expect that your pension can pay for
| apartment rent and other costs of living, indefinitely.
| levital wrote:
| Mind, the ownership statistics may not be fully reflective
| of the ability to afford a home in Germany. There's a long
| rental tradition in Germany with strong tenants rights.
| frockington1 wrote:
| With negative interest rates, debt is incredibly cheap.
| People are probably able to leverage themselves more than in
| North America
| the-dude wrote:
| Is this your experience, or an assumption?
|
| German mortages are known for the requirement to bring
| plenty money of your own.
| namelosw wrote:
| It's one of the outstanding problems of the current world.
| Not only in Germany, but there are also even crazier
| countries that most people can't afford to buy a small
| apartment their whole life.
|
| Old houses belong to older generations, and new houses are
| bought by rich people. Young people don't stand a chance, for
| some cities even not with a lifelong mortgage - unless they
| live in countries like Singapore which explicitly tackled
| this problem.
| kalnins wrote:
| How did Singapore tackle it?
| HDMI_Cable wrote:
| I believe it was a combination of two factors (I'm not
| Singaporean so it would be nice if someone could correct
| me). Most of the housing units are owned by the
| government and are leased out to prospective owners based
| on a pseudo-waiting list type system for a fixed term (50
| years?), and Singapore tends to build more housing than
| the west.
| Blumfid wrote:
| In the last 10 years I have seen prices and still see them
| here around munich 100km radius where it just gets more
| expensive.
|
| I ask that question and I make now nearly 6 figures.
|
| Before it was passible to buy a flat and pay it off, now
| prices are where you wanna sell it in 30 years or so.
| mratsim wrote:
| Same in France especially Paris. A decent home (say 80 m2) is
| at least 700kEUR at the moment.
|
| Only people who bought a decade ago, work in Finance or as a
| notaries or sold shares in a successful startup can afford
| it.
| maigret wrote:
| I think now the prices are more expensive in Germany
| overall, although there is less variation... Paris is very
| expensive it's true. But you'll be damned to find a decent
| home under 500k in the whole South Germany. And they are
| not nearly as nice as the old french houses. I'm really
| contemplating relocating or buying something in France at
| the moment.
| wink wrote:
| Of course my sample size is limited, but except in some rare
| circumstances where I live (Munich) people don't just buy or
| build a house before they're 40-50 unless they got money from
| their parents. Even with a job in tech. The pay absolutely
| looks great when viewed from a perspective of having less,
| but if you're actually saving up for a house and want to stay
| here and not live somewhere remotely, it's really hard.
|
| But this is one of the most expensive cities. You can be
| lucky and be living in a small town 50-100km outside and if
| you don't have to commute daily, it's completely reasonable
| to buy a house (on rates) in your late 20s.
| tsss wrote:
| > what kind of people are able to afford a house?
|
| - People with 30+ year mortgages
|
| - People living in the middle of nowhere who will work at the
| same crappy company for the rest of their lives (or lose
| everything when they are let go)
|
| - People who commute 2h per day
|
| - People who inherit at least 100k
|
| - People who bought their first house 10 or 15 years ago and
| now think they're invincible because real estate prices have
| exploded
| madarcho wrote:
| Few people buy a house outright. Mortgages make the ordeal a
| little more in reach. Now as to whether banks grant it or not
| is a different problem...
| frockington1 wrote:
| Do you know if Europe's negative rates have made mortgages
| more or less challenging to receive. I can see it going
| either way as any interest is better than negative bond
| yields but how much effort are you going to put in if a
| mortgage rate is suppressed as well?
| imtringued wrote:
| If the minimum down payment grows it gets harder.
| dagw wrote:
| At least in Sweden they have made the rules around getting
| a mortgage stricter and stricter over the past 4-5 years.
| The income requirements have gotten stricter, they're
| requiring that you put down more money up front and that
| you make larger monthly principal payments.
| KptMarchewa wrote:
| No longer >100 year loans?
| ChuckNorris89 wrote:
| Sorry, but even 450k Euros for a house is very cheap for the
| current crazy market in Germany. At that price don't expect to
| be in a nice area or be close to any major city or good
| facilities.
| estaseuropano wrote:
| Totally depends on the region..and public transport such as
| local trains tend to be good and most cities small enough for
| cycling to work or commuting in. Even hlHamburg or Munich is
| not like London or New York.
| corty wrote:
| Recently, near my grandmother's, public transport got a new
| train stop in the outskirts of Frankfurt. House prices in
| the adjacent villages have more than doubled. And they
| weren't cheap to begin with, considering it is commute
| distance to Frankfurt.
| [deleted]
| alkonaut wrote:
| Savings is for a down payment. Then you pay mortgages on the
| house and any savings are much better to keep (retirement,
| buffer, ..). If I were to save to buy my house (EUR800K) I'd
| certainly not be living in it before the kids move out, at
| which point I no longer need a house.
|
| The price of a house on the market has a pretty simple formula:
| it's what two incomes can pay per month times the interest rate
| they expect over some horizon, and the expected monthly pyament
| of the principal (if any).
|
| Where I live, I can stop paying back the loan when the loan is
| under 70% the valuation of the house, so it's then interest-
| only after that. And _of course_ there are better uses of money
| than paying a mortgage: in recent history the stock market has
| been booming while my mortgage is under 1.5%. Whenever I have
| EUR1K lying around, I 'd certainly not want to pay back 0.1% of
| my mortgage when I can save it instead.
| jcbrand wrote:
| If you're not paying off the principal, you're just renting
| from the bank without the benefit of having a landlord to fix
| things.
|
| Why bother?
| alkonaut wrote:
| > If you're not paying off the principal, you're just
| renting from the bank without the benefit of having a
| landlord to fix things.
|
| Renting a house is more or less unheard of. If I want a
| house I need to buy one (or: "rent from the bank" as it
| were)
|
| And the market price is basically "what two high income
| earners can afford if they pay interest only".
|
| So: if I want to live in a house at all, I need to buy it
| using borrowed money, and in the window I expect to live in
| a house (say 10-25 years) I couldn't make a large dent in
| the principal regardless, because of the extremely low
| interest rates (around 1% now for mortgages) and the high
| prices that come from that. I don't like it, but I don't
| have a choice.
|
| Also regulations strongly favor buying with borrowed money
| over renting. Interest can be deducted while those who rent
| from a landlord obviously pay interest too - indirectly
| through their rent - but in their case it _isn't_
| deductible. So anyone who is forced to rent (e.g because
| they can't afford the huge 15-20% down payment or aren't
| paid enough to get the mortgage) is pretty much subsidizing
| the tax deductions of those who take mortgages.
| llampx wrote:
| Interest is not deductible in Germany., Unlike the US.
| imtringued wrote:
| Sure the market says you should put the money into stocks,
| but from a risk perspective this is not meaningfully
| different from paying off your mortgage and then borrowing
| money at an incredibly low interest rate for the sake of
| buying stocks. It's still trading on margin.
|
| If you must do this, then don't use the money on moonshots
| and pick something with low volatility.
| jgwil2 wrote:
| But you can't live in your stocks.
| alkonaut wrote:
| Exactly. So you live in the house. The question is whether
| a EUR1k should be saved or invested or paid towards the
| house so you leave it (after say 10-20 years) with 50%
| loans instead of 70%?
| ecnerwala wrote:
| Its not an unpopular opinion in my book. The first sentence,
| especially the "it might be harder if you have a family to
| feed", is distressing. If an average developer salary is not
| enough to do that, then, what are the jobs that DO allow you
| that ?
| mgraupner wrote:
| Doctor, Lawyer or a couple where both work full time and earn
| good salaries.
| luckylion wrote:
| > If an average developer salary is not enough to do that,
| then, what are the jobs that DO allow you that ?
|
| Don't believe the hype. The average developer salary is
| enough to feed a family of four, you just won't be able to
| buy a house in a sought-after suburb on a single salary.
| koevet wrote:
| And let's not forget that in Germany, one has to add around 15%
| on top of the house price: taxes, notary and - almost always -
| the real estate agent cut.
| nickkell wrote:
| That real estate agent fee is sickening. It's shocking that
| they can charge a percentage of the value of the property.
| With ever-rising house prices they're earning more and more
| without doing any additional work.
|
| This money also has to be paid upfront, and so is yet another
| hindrance for young, first-time buyers.
| eloeffler wrote:
| I'm surprised the article says nothing about certifications and
| or degrees, only work experience. I don't work in Software
| Engineering but I would have assumed that - like anywhere else in
| Germany - a university degree is required more often than abroad.
| Or am I wrong about that?
| wink wrote:
| Highly depends where you're interviewing.
|
| I don't think I've ever shown my CS diploma anywhere before HR
| wanted a copy after signing the contract. Of course it was on
| the CV, but I am relatively sure it didn't influence them
| hiring me or not. (Got hired without CV as well...)
|
| There are a ton of positions (especially with larger companies)
| that "require" a degree, and I don't know how many will skip
| that, but compared to 10-15y ago I see a lot more "requires a
| BSc or 3-5y of work experience" or something along the lines.
| leifg wrote:
| For certain visas you need a university degree (for example the
| job seeking visa).
|
| When it comes to finding a job a lot of startups (specifically
| in Berlin) don't require it (the example that I have from a
| friend is she worked in customer support in a German startup).
|
| A lot of these startups need to communicate in English so being
| a native English speaker is an advantage.
|
| The issue arises if you want to apply for a work visa for any
| of these positions. Only a certain number of countries allow
| you to apply for a work visa while being in the country on a
| tourist visa (US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Israel,
| Japan, South Korea AFAIK (possibly the UK after Brexit)).
|
| If you're not from any of these countries you'll have to go
| back to your home country and apply for a visa there.
| k__ wrote:
| Depends on your age and experience, I think.
|
| If you're in your early twenties and don't have much
| experience, it can be tough to get a job and a degree certainly
| helps.
|
| If you're over thirty and have worked for many companies,
| nobody asks for your degree anymore.
| DocTomoe wrote:
| German proverb: What you have written on paper, you can happily
| carry home. Having degrees is giving you an advantage.
|
| Especially for entry-level positions, degrees are relevant to
| get a foot in the door. Once you advance to mid-level, people
| tend to ignore certifications and/or degrees - at the corporate
| job I am now, I didn't even include them in my application,
| just mentioning them in my CV. If you survived in the job
| market for a few years, noone questions your capabilities.
|
| What is more important later-on are recomendation letters
| ("Arbeitszeugnisse") from former employers (which they are
| required by law to give, and as they cannot make them sound
| negative, they tend to use a system of nice-sounding, but coded
| messages if you were not a good employee, e.g. "he always had
| good relationships with his colleagues" means "he did smalltalk
| all day, but did not work", or "she was always showing
| sociality" translates to "she's an alcoholic".)
| _petronius wrote:
| Honestly depends on the company -- I have no problem despite
| the fact that both of my degrees are in the arts, but I also
| work for a very international company (English is the language
| we work in, it has a lot of folks in it from nontraditional
| backgrounds).
|
| If you apply to work for a more traditional or more "German"
| company, you may find that things like the subject your uni
| degree is in, or formal recommendations from previous employers
| (Zeugnisse) suddenly matter a lot more.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| They matter only if you are a junior. I've worked with (and
| hired) Germans that never finished university. But if you don't
| have a degree, you need to be obviously good at what you do to
| get hired for good jobs.
|
| The reality is that there are lots of not so great software
| engineers working for not so great salaries in not so great
| projects. That kind of stuff is hard to hide in a good
| interview. Supporting people with getting a visa is costly for
| companies so they tend to do that only with good people.
| Quality is the main reason to do this.
| v41k wrote:
| If you're working in Tech in Germany i'm sincerely sorry for you.
| Go literally anywhere else.
| lacker wrote:
| The salaries seem really low. The absolute highest paying job
| listed on their site is a 110,000 euro salary, but you can get
| more than that with zero experience in California. I wonder if it
| would be better for software engineers in Germany to simply get
| remote working jobs for US companies.
| IdiocyInAction wrote:
| US companies don't pay 100k+ in Europe. Amazon pays like 60k
| base for SDE1 where I live and I think Google pays 70k+ base.
| wikibob wrote:
| That is not correct.
|
| https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-
| sala...
|
| https://twitter.com/gergelyorosz/status/1372918536566403073
| k__ wrote:
| That's how I do it. Works well.
| volta83 wrote:
| How does that work tax wise? Does the California company have
| an office in germany? If so, do they still pay the same
| salary as in california?
| k__ wrote:
| Oh, I'm self-employed.
| mkurz wrote:
| I am very interested: What is your hourly/daily/weekly
| rate? Do you have one long-term client in the US or
| multiples?
| k__ wrote:
| I have one long-term client in the US. I also have other
| clients around the world, some long-term and some short-
| term.
|
| Overall, the international clients pay much better than
| the local ones.
| tluyben2 wrote:
| You are a freelancer right? I always feel the US salaries are
| more comparable to EU freelancer salaries; I never made less
| than E100/hr as freelancer for the past 25 years working for
| EU companies. And often (if the economy is good etc), over
| 250/hr is doable. Sure you need to buy your own insurance (if
| you don't want public hospitals or minimum welfare if you get
| fired) but other than that I don't think it's that far off.
| k__ wrote:
| Also, private insurance isn't as crazy as in the US.
|
| I pay half of what I would pay to public health-care and
| still get better service.
| wasmitnetzen wrote:
| You also get (probably) 30 days of paid vacation a year and up
| to 6 weeks of sick pay paid by the employer (and after that by
| your health insurance). You can't just compare the raw numbers
| to get a full picture.
| lacker wrote:
| I mean it's just so far off. Check levels.fyi,
| Google/Airbnb/Coinbase will be paying $300k+ for software
| engineers with 4+ years of experience.
| dzonga wrote:
| > I mean it's just so far off. Check levels.fyi,
| Google/Airbnb/Coinbase will be paying $300k+ for software
| engineers with 4+ years of experience.
|
| Don't know why people here like quoting those companies as
| if they're representatives of the industry in general. Even
| in 'SV' most startups are not paying 300k. Most likely
| 150k~ for a senior.
|
| Median dev job earnings in the US are around 90k. Last time
| I remember from bls
| mkipper wrote:
| Those salaries are also:
|
| 1. Unprecedented for "average" engineers (i.e. not leading
| their field) until very recently
|
| 2. Offered by extremely profitable big tech companies or
| less profitable companies with giant pools of funding
|
| 3. Offered by companies that highly value software
| engineers
|
| 4. Offered in extremely competitive markets
|
| The vast majority of employers in Germany, and in most of
| the world, don't meet those criteria. It's unreasonable to
| compare the average German tech company to the best paying
| American tech companies.
|
| Compared to the best paying software jobs on earth, German
| tech pays pretty badly. But so do most companies. I used to
| live in a city with a population of ~1 million, and most
| local "tech" companies paid new grads $60k - $80k, with
| senior developers landing between $100k and $150k. That's
| much closer to Germany pay than Silicon Valley pay.
| wasmitnetzen wrote:
| Money isn't everything to everyone. Different people value
| different things. I could probably get a job in the US with
| my work experience, but I'm happy here in Sweden, even
| though I make less than $100k a year. It's enough to pay
| for my lifestyle, so why should I trade a big part of my 30
| days of vacation for more money which I don't need?
| phendrenad2 wrote:
| I don't think any German companies compare to
| Google/Airbnb/Coinbase. And it's not guaranteed that if you
| move to Mountain View you'll get a job at Google. Just
| saying.
| Vinnl wrote:
| I work for a US company, but since they're hiring remotely, I'm
| competing with other European developers. I earn less than I
| would have earned at my last Dutch employer (which, to be fair,
| paid comparatively well).
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-04-22 23:03 UTC)