[HN Gopher] Apple Introduces AirTag
___________________________________________________________________
Apple Introduces AirTag
Author : davidbarker
Score : 434 points
Date : 2021-04-20 17:14 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.apple.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.apple.com)
| gsibble wrote:
| His keys are in an alley off 6th street. I wouldn't go looking
| for them.
| lolive wrote:
| Can you AirTag your kids?
| ConanRus wrote:
| only the legal ones
| anoncake wrote:
| > a removable cover makes it easy for users to replace the
| battery.
|
| Oh no, someone has hacked Apple's website and is playing a prank
| on them.
| bnj wrote:
| This is really funny
| wyldfire wrote:
| Does it make more sense for a moderator to combine these Apple
| product announcements into a single entry?
| 120bits wrote:
| I have been using Tile for more than 2 years and I think its time
| to switch and try out AirTag. I had some issues with Tile but has
| worked OK so far. Looking at the pictures it does look about the
| same size, maybe a bit smaller. I do like lot of app features.
| And as a Iphone user it will be good integration. Also, user
| replaceable battery is huge plus. Looking forward to checking it
| out.
| dblooman wrote:
| It looks cool, but is a big problem that people have that is
| solved by a first party product
| mertd wrote:
| I wonder if I can put this on my dog as an activity tracker.
| [deleted]
| donclark wrote:
| I would buy this if it showed activity, the path where it went,
| was rechargeable and/or solar powered, and if it worked for
| Android as well.
| DangerousPie wrote:
| So basically you'd buy this if it were an entirely different
| product?
| donclark wrote:
| Yes. The product could be much better for what it is/does.
|
| What I listed is probably the best case scenario. If it had
| 1 or more of the things I was looking for - I would
| consider it.
|
| I will add "one more thing"... recharges wirelessly so that
| if it is on my dog, and I have the charger near his bed...
| way cool.
| DangerousPie wrote:
| If it could do my laundry I'd buy it!
| donclark wrote:
| Speaking of, why hasnt Apple produced a home robot?!? One
| that is capable of loading and unloading the diswasher,
| same with laundry, take out the trash, take bins to curb
| on trash day, etc.
| jliptzin wrote:
| Someone at Apple must really hate Tile
| john_payette wrote:
| This tag has an U1 chip using Ultra Wide Band (UWB) which means
| that iPhones 11 and above also equipped with those chips will be
| able to locate those tags from 80m away with a +/-30cm accuracy.
| U1 UWB uses short pulses at 6.24GHz and 8.2GHz and positioning is
| done by combining time of flight (ToF) and angle of arrival
| (AoA).
| snailmailman wrote:
| I'm really curious how accurate this ends up being. Bluetooth
| location is one thing, but I've never seen bluetooth that can
| do anything more accurate than "X meters away"
|
| These UWB chips claim to do "X meters away in Y direction". The
| _direction_ aspect could be revolutionary if it works well.
| AirTags is the perfect use for it as well.
| andiareso wrote:
| "+/- 30cm" ?
| snailmailman wrote:
| Compared to a dot on a map that usually just narrows it
| down to an entire building?
|
| If the sound is muffled and you can't hear it, this sounds
| like it could narrow it down to a specific room or maybe
| even area of a room. Which is a _huge_ improvement.
|
| I haven't personally used a Tile before, but my impression
| was "you get what building it's in, then have to search
| everywhere til it's in earshot"
| oh_sigh wrote:
| The finding app has an arrow on it, pointing you towards
| the signal. So maybe the map has only building-level
| resolution, but once you're in the building you just
| follow the arrow until it says you're standing on it.
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| > Apple-designed AirTag accessories include the Leather Key Ring
| in Saddle Brown, (PRODUCT)RED, and Baltic Blue for $35 (US); the
| Leather Loop in Saddle Brown and (PRODUCT)RED for $39 (US); and
| the Polyurethane Loop in White, Deep Navy, Sunflower, and
| Electric Orange for $29 (US).
|
| Interesting to see what looks like a typo "(PRODUCT)RED" in an
| Apple press release.
| rm445 wrote:
| (PRODUCT)RED is a charity that Apple has supported since the
| iPod days: you get a red device and some money goes to charity.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_Red
| JanSolo wrote:
| (Product)Red is not a typo. It's a weird marketing trick that
| Apple uses to make red coloured things seem more special.
| wand3r wrote:
| https://www.apple.com/product-red/
| [deleted]
| Qahlel wrote:
| glorified dog tags...
|
| I don't see myself spending $30 to find my keys in my key jar
| that costed $3...
| [deleted]
| habibur wrote:
| > AirTag is designed for over a year's worth of battery life with
| everyday use. The CR2032 battery is user-replaceable and widely
| available. Replacement batteries are sold separately.
|
| That's the piece of information I wanted to know first. Devices
| like this can be built, but those can't run on batteries for a
| reasonable time frame.
|
| Apple made it practical.
| bsharitt wrote:
| I'm super surprised and pleased by this. I would have expected
| these to have recharge lithium ion batteries that weren't
| replaceable.
| kemonocode wrote:
| They probably caught enough flak with how incredibly
| unserviceable AirPods were and decided not to repeat the same
| mistake, _especially_ here where it wouldn 't give any benefit
| at all. Kind of a no-brainer, but you never know with Apple...
| stu2b50 wrote:
| I don't think it's reasonable to expect user replaceable
| batteries in airpods themselves - case, perhaps. That's one
| form factor where it's not only small, but every gram lighter
| matters.
| adamlett wrote:
| Lol, what flak? AirPods are to a close approximation loved by
| all reviewers and by all evidence they are a smash hit among
| consumers.
| calvinmorrison wrote:
| I got knock off ones. Yeah, they nice. I lost them in about
| 3 weeks. First one bud, then the other. Shame but I'm 5
| years into my Bose over ears and I don't think I'll lose
| them.
| munk-a wrote:
| I'm actually rather disappointed that it isn't using a passive
| RFID chip and multiple base stations to triangulate item
| location - that would probably bring the price for the actual
| tags down to something stupidly cheap.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Is this actually doable? I always thought RFID is unusable at
| those distances.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| RFID does work with base stations - I believe some toll
| roads use them. It's however impossible to deploy these at
| the scale necessary to make these tags work - the range is
| so short you'd need them every few meters.
| suprfsat wrote:
| Tile's been doing one-year battery life with a CR2032 for quite
| some time now.
| cptskippy wrote:
| Only in the Tile Mate and Pro since 2018 models. Their other
| tiles do not have user replaceable batteries.
| eigen wrote:
| only the $35 Tile Pro has user-replaceable 2032 battery.
| JohnTHaller wrote:
| That's incorrect. The lower-tier Tile Mate has a 1 year
| user-replaceable CR1632 battery. The Tile Mate is only $62
| for a 4-pack compared to $89.99 for a 4-pack of Tile Pros
| or $99 for a 4-pack of AirTags. User-replaceable 1 year
| batteries have been the norm for a while as both the Mate
| and Pro were introduced 2.5 years ago.
| avipars wrote:
| I'm happy that it's user-replaceable ...
|
| $100 for 4 of them sets you back a good amount... especially if
| you would have otherwise had to toss them after their internal
| batteries died
| vagrantJin wrote:
| > Apple made it practical.
|
| Ofcourse. User replaceable battery sold seperately made
| practical by Apple Inc.
| tyingq wrote:
| Didn't expect user replaceable commodity batteries from Apple.
| That's nice.
| gerry_shaw wrote:
| It is ridiculous that something as basic as having a user
| replaceable battery is considered an unexpected nice feature.
| spoonjim wrote:
| For something where extremely small size is an essential
| feature (unlike a laptop computer), battery replaceability
| is a direct trade off with that.
| alephnan wrote:
| Some Tile models don't have replaceable batteries either.
|
| There's a tradeoff in form factor
| avipars wrote:
| actually not much in mine...
|
| maybe in the tile slim ones though
| ehsankia wrote:
| As pointed out above, this is already the status quo
| (replacable battery, 1 year life, etc). Tile has had it for
| years.
|
| I'm curious if it would've been technically feasible to have
| wireless charging on these instead of replaceable battery. Or
| would that greatly increase the price?
| banana_giraffe wrote:
| Tile has user replaceable batteries on some of their
| products. Granted, it seems to be on their best sellers, but
| I somehow ended up with the thin ones, and I found out those
| don't have replaceable batteries after they died.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| There was definitely a time when they had no product that
| had replaceable batteries in their line.
|
| I swore Tile off when I found out the hard way that the
| battery gives out a year from time of sale, not from when
| you activate it.
| Zircom wrote:
| Do you have a source for that? My partner got a me some
| Tiles for my birthday 9 months ago and I still haven't
| gotten around to actually putting them on anything, would
| hate to find out they're only good for 3 more months
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Well, this is buried in their FAQ, emphasis mine:
| https://tileteam.zendesk.com/hc/en-
| us/articles/200550678-ReT...
|
| > What if my battery dies early?
|
| > We do not control the lifespan of your Tile; the
| battery is guaranteed to last a full year (or 3 years for
| Sticker and Slim) _from your purchase date._ Your Tiles
| are covered for 12 months by our worry-free warranty! If
| your Tile's battery dies before a year has passed from
| the time of purchase, we'll replace it free of charge.
| Our Customer Care team would be happy to help you!
| pfranz wrote:
| Tile didn't start with replaceable batteries--they still
| don't use them in all their products. I don't know how
| AirTags will be in practice, but user-replaceable batteries
| haven't been great. I don't know if it's a technical
| restriction or not, but "low-battery" seems to be a time
| based warning and not based on battery charge. So I either
| get an alert when 1 year has passed on all of my devices at
| the same time, or they just suddenly die without warning. I
| could see why Apple might avoid this user experience.
| Hopefully, their implementation is better.
| yardie wrote:
| Lithium batteries are high output until they're not. Like
| the CR2032 battery in my car keyfob it's working until it's
| not. The drop from 3V to 1V is precipitously fast. Also, 1
| year is extremely conservative. I normally get 3 years out
| of these batteries. An Airtag that's constantly being
| interrogated may run out faster than say a keyfob used 5x a
| day
| habibur wrote:
| > I don't know if it's a technical restriction or not
|
| More likely because CR batteries don't drop voltage
| significantly as it discharges. And at full discharge it
| suddenly drops dead. Which is why it's harder to measure
| "remaining charge", as that's generally calculated on
| battery voltage.
| Kye wrote:
| Your choice is a reasonable timer or extra circuitry and
| logic for monitoring battery power that cuts the battery
| life.
| idiotsecant wrote:
| low-cost, low-power battery monitoring is like pretty
| much the most solved problem ever.
| zsmi wrote:
| you forgot something, low-cost, low-power, low-accuracy
| battery monitoring is like pretty much the most solved
| problem ever.
|
| low-cost & low-power & high accuracy, not so much
| dijit wrote:
| > Tile has had it for years.
|
| I had a tile and it most assuredly did not have a replacable
| battery, I had to mill the thing open:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrhM5ujSU6w
| spoonjim wrote:
| Tile has products with replaceable and with non replaceable
| batteries.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I've had a Tile with a replaceable battery since 2018
| (according to the app just now). It replaced the previous
| single-use model.
| Me1000 wrote:
| Yeah, I had to check their website... it looks like some of
| the their models have replaceable batteries now, but they
| certainly didn't start that way (and not all of their
| products have a replaceable battery today).
| runawaybottle wrote:
| If you are forgetting where your object is, you are probably
| forgetting to charge it too.
| jeffy90 wrote:
| I lose my phone all the time but somehow I manage to charge
| it
| Nextgrid wrote:
| To be fair, replaceable batteries in laptops and phones also
| used to be the status quo and Apple successfully changed
| that. Just because it's the status quo wouldn't prevent Apple
| from "thinking different".
| adrr wrote:
| They are replaceable just not user replaceable though
| user's can change it if they buy $10 worth of tools. Just
| like my car's battery isn't user replaceable unless i buy
| tools to be able pull the battery out of the battery
| compartment.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Your car's battery isn't glued in place behind a cover
| held by screws with an intentionally obscure pattern. Not
| to mention, car manufacturers don't (yet?) use
| specialized batteries that only they can source
| legitimately nor use DRM to make the car reject a
| perfectly good battery just because it's not the original
| one that came with it.
| adrr wrote:
| I've never changed the battery in my IPhone but my MBPr
| 15 it took an OEM battery fine. I cut the glue with some
| spectra fishing line and wasn't that hard. Took me about
| 15 minutes to replace it. The IFixit OEM battery came
| with the tools to change out the battery.
| rconti wrote:
| Standard tools or specialty tools?
|
| I suppose if you can't lift 80lbs out of an awkward spot,
| it's also not user replaceable? The line has to be drawn
| somewhere.
| llbeansandrice wrote:
| > Apple successfully changed that
|
| I feel like this gives far too much credit to Apple. Any
| one company can "think differently" but Apple shouldn't get
| the blame for all of the other companies following suit.
|
| Remember the ads Samsung ran before axing the headphone
| jack a year later?
| capableweb wrote:
| We can just blame all the companies for doing X, we don't
| have to be so selective. Apple and Samsung both removes
| user replaceable batteries? Well, screw both of them
| then.
| 6gvONxR4sf7o wrote:
| Amen. I'm tired of HN discussions trying to find a single
| cause/blame when you can often spread the blame pretty
| well around.
| r00fus wrote:
| > Apple shouldn't get the blame for all of the other
| companies following suit
|
| It's not about blame - Apple has repeatedly changed the
| landscape of computing for decades. Mac, modern laptops,
| iPhone. Downplay their influence if you will, but they
| have been the harbinger so often before...
| serial_dev wrote:
| I do think it couldn't have happened without Apple doing
| it first from the big manufacturers.
|
| Apple had (and still have) the status and prestige to do
| anything and make that a standard. If Huawei/Samsung/etc
| didn't include chargers, didn't use USB or USB C, changed
| from 3.5 to some proprietary audio jack first, they would
| have been ridiculed.
|
| But once Apple changed these things (except luckily the
| USB), these companies could point out that "Apple does
| this, so it must be an acceptable idea".
|
| The most annoying thing about this is that they are
| trying to spin these changes as innovation or something
| for the environment.
| addicted wrote:
| Apple has an ability to drive change that other computer
| manufacturers don't.
|
| The simple reason is that Apple is the only manufacturer
| in a specific market. The market for MacOS (or in the
| case of iDevices, iOS) users.
|
| What that means is that Apple can introduce a pretty
| shitty change and not lose too many customers to other
| manufacturers because switching from Apple to another
| manufacturer is much harder than from Dell to HP.
|
| So, for example, if Dell were to introduce those shitty
| butterfly keyboards, that were nearly unusable and got
| spoilt so easily, they would have to change back to their
| old keyboards within months, unlike Apple, which managed
| to stick to that design for years and generations of
| devices without suffering too much.
|
| I use that example because it was an unambiguously worse
| option, so it nicely illustrates how Apple has a lock-in
| that others don't. But Apple can use that lock in to then
| introduce what are potentially more useful changes (USB2)
| and/or changes that are not fully baked yet (USB-C), and
| not suffer the consequences other manufacturers would.
| bredren wrote:
| As a customer, my buy-in is built on the trust that the
| majority of the time the company is going to make the
| right call.
|
| If they make the wrong call, they'll handle it. Or they
| won't and you'll get burned a little bit.
|
| When Apple makes an obvious error, like with the
| keyboard, or something external is holding back the
| quality of the product (recent pre-Apple silicon laptops)
| you do have to sort of pay attention and if possible
| steer around the problem.
|
| As an example I largely sidelined the weak 2018 MacBook
| Air and instead invested in maxing out a Mac Mini. That
| turned out really well for me.
|
| Sometimes, like with the butterfly keyboard, it feels
| like Apple does not take enough responsibility for screw
| ups and take greater measures to make customers whole.
|
| This happened recently for me with the iPhone 12 Magsafe
| Silicon case, which is a good product but flawed in the
| context of the iPhone upgrade program.
|
| In that way, I think Apple could and should be much more
| generous about returning value to its customers instead
| of to shareholders.
|
| If there were any existential threat to Apple, I'd say
| it's the need to reward shareholders instead of
| customers.
| ehsankia wrote:
| It wouldn't, but in this specific case they didn't. Did
| apple bring any actual innovation that I missed? That's why
| I was proposing wireless charging, that would've actually
| been a nice step forward.
| pfranz wrote:
| > Did apple bring any actual innovation that I missed?
|
| I guess it depends on what you think of as innovation.
| Their marketing pointed to "scalloped" batteries instead
| of square so they can take up more empty space (plus the
| space that would have been used by covering the battery
| and a fatter connector).
|
| In my experience, their batteries went from 200 charge
| cycles, about ~4 of battery life, and often failing
| before reaching it's end of life to 1000 charge cycles,
| about 8-10hrs of battery life, and rarely getting
| "service" warnings suggesting replacement. At least last
| time I needed to swap batteries I just needed a small
| screwdriver.
|
| I was very concerned when they ditched removable
| batteries because that was one part I constantly had
| problems with. Since those issues were address I'm very
| glad they went that way.
| ehsankia wrote:
| > Their marketing pointed to "scalloped" batteries
| instead of square so they can take up more empty space
|
| I'm confused, are these standard CR2032 batteries or not?
| Do I have to buy some special Apple battery?
| applecrazy wrote:
| Parent comment is referring to MacBook batteries
| Nextgrid wrote:
| However, none of this justifies intentionally making the
| batteries extremely difficult to replace. It wouldn't
| make any noticeable difference to their bottom line (when
| you consider the margins on their products) to hold
| batteries with a screwed-in bracket (or even by
| compression with some foam) instead of hard-to-remove
| adhesive.
| giantrobot wrote:
| Adhesive responds better to thermal expansion/contraction
| cycles than screws. Using foam to compress the battery to
| hold it in place can prevent safe thermal expansion and
| isn't necessarily going to hold everything in place with
| vibration or percussion.
| pharmakom wrote:
| Phone batteries stopped being user replaceable once smart
| phones started improving at such a rapid pace that even if
| you could replace the battery in your 2 year old device you
| won't want to because the UI would be dog slow and the
| camera a blurry mess compared to current model.
|
| Funnily, the time for replaceable batteries in phones seems
| to have arrived, but users are now trained not to expect
| it.
|
| Sending your phone in for a manufacturer battery
| replacement after 2 years of use to get a further 2 is a
| good compromise in my view. My last replacement was about
| $50.
| georgehaake wrote:
| It needs a hole.
| symlinkk wrote:
| This is a great idea, I'll be buying one on the first day. Really
| happy to see privacy and encryption as key selling points too.
| msoad wrote:
| I can't find the information on its dimensions. I don't have keys
| anymore (smart lock and Tesla) so I only need this for my wallet.
| Will this make my wallet too thick?
| Analemma_ wrote:
| I'm surprised they didn't make multiple form factors. I was
| considering replacing my Tile trackers with this, but without
| an equivalent to their wallet tracker [0] it's a no-go.
|
| [0]: https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/store/tiles/slim
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| It'll fit in a "Costanza wallet", but will make anything
| minimal pretty uncomfortable... try the AR view
| varispeed wrote:
| > provides a private and secure way to easily locate the items
| that matter most
|
| I am sorry but I couldn't stop laughing. How exactly is this
| private and secure? Only you know and a trillion dollar company
| :-)
|
| I would buy something like this if I could self host the server
| and it could operate on virtual LAN. But letting foreign company
| with questionable ethics know where is the stuff that I love?
| djrogers wrote:
| Have you looked into this _at all_? Apple doesn 't know the
| location of any of these things - ever. It's all spelled out in
| their very detailed white papers, but in short the location
| data is e2e encrypted and only available to your phone.
| jypepin wrote:
| This is directly competing with Tile[0] which you can buy 2 for
| 39.99.
|
| I guess the integration with Find My app would be pretty
| convenient but probably not worth the price difference?
|
| [0] https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/store/tiles/sticker
| jpalomaki wrote:
| Difference is also that majority of iOS devices people are
| carrying will be part of the tracking network.
|
| Not sure how widely Tile is used. One issue on iOS with them is
| that you get these regular prompts "Tile has been using your
| location - do you want to disable it".
| freddyheppell wrote:
| IMO the big advantage of AirTags will be that you can locate
| them if they're near anyone with an iPhone, but Tile is limited
| just to their own users. Anecdotally I don't know anyone who
| uses Tile but I know plenty of people with iPhones.
| Krasnol wrote:
| I know a lot of people who with Android phones which makes
| AirTags the limited item.
| wyxuan wrote:
| The U1 might be a big differentiator - a lot more fine tuned
| way of determining the presence (spatially) of where the airtag
| is
| athorax wrote:
| The tile ones only have 150-400ft range, which is fine for
| locating things in your home, but not so great if you lose
| something out in public
| nostromo wrote:
| And honestly not even that good in your home. I love their
| product design, but the functionality never lived up to the
| promise.
| jypepin wrote:
| Ah interesting, I've never used Tile so I didn't know it had
| such a limited range.
| [deleted]
| r-zip wrote:
| In addition to what the other commenter said, Tile products are
| very flaky. The price difference doesn't matter to me, since
| Tile's products just don't work.
| eli wrote:
| Tile has been complaining for some time that their products
| are flaky because new iOS privacy measures prevent them from
| accessing location data while running in the background, even
| if the user sets the app permission to "always allow."
|
| https://9to5mac.com/2020/04/02/apple-breaking-promises/
| sitzkrieg wrote:
| destroy your competition by means of public apis! its great
| novok wrote:
| Yeah it used to be more reliable until a few OS updates
| ago, so I definitely believe tile on this front.
| patentatt wrote:
| Used to be more reliable, but also consumed ~10% of my
| battery on any given day. It's a trade-off
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| Android does the same if anyone's wondering
| ffggvv wrote:
| yeah but they can't use apples internal apis to track things.
| so apple gets to cheat unfairly on ios
| phlyingpenguin wrote:
| https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2021/04/apples-find-my-
| networ...
| eli wrote:
| Do you think Tile will be allowed to participate? At what
| cost?
| djrogers wrote:
| Tile declined to participate...
| eli wrote:
| Interesting. Is it free to join? Would Apple get early
| looks or veto power over new products? Seems like Tile is
| in a tough spot no matter what.
| ffggvv wrote:
| lol so they can maybe catch up in a year when apple is
| releasing their product using those apis now
| [deleted]
| xyst wrote:
| it's a bit late tbh. looks cool though.
| prionassembly wrote:
| I've been thinking about a solution that would let me find a 4-10
| year old child that gets lost in a big city crowd. Like a
| bracelet or something. Is the AirTag truly first or best in
| class?
| shuckles wrote:
| Apple Watch for kids launched last fall with cellular and GPS
| support. You probably want something like it for kids in the
| older end of that range.
| asdff wrote:
| I wouldn't put a magnet for theft on my child's wrist in
| effort to keep them from getting lost.
| macintux wrote:
| I find it hard to imagine that a $400 device is worth the
| risk of being caught accosting or kidnapping a child.
| Society doesn't look kindly on people who threaten
| children.
| yomansat wrote:
| Stick an old phone into their pocket/bagpack, sim ideal but not
| required.
|
| Connect that phone to your phone hotspot, so you can turn on
| your hotspot and, if the phone connects, it's nearby plus you
| can use Find My to track it from there, play sound... etc.
|
| Bonus if you have access to e.g. XFinity or whichever is the
| most prevalent free wifi around, so your phone can come online
| occasionally.
| duskwuff wrote:
| Not suitable for purpose. AirTags are for objects which will
| stay in one place when lost. They aren't appropriate for
| tracking "objects" which will move on their own, like pets or
| people, nor are they likely to work on the time scale that
| you'd need to find a lost child.
| Lammy wrote:
| Can somebody please help me parse the last sentence in the
| "Privacy" paragraph here? I'm honestly confused by the "or
| location of any device that helped find it". All I want to know
| is if a LEA could subpoena Apple for the location of any/all of
| my AirTags, and I can't tell if this is talking about the tags
| themselves or about the device that initiates a Find action for a
| Tag:
|
| "AirTag is designed from the ground up to keep location data
| private and secure. No location data or location history is
| physically stored inside AirTag. Communication with the Find My
| network is end-to-end encrypted so that only the owner of a
| device has access to its location data, and no one, including
| Apple, knows the identity or location of any device that helped
| find it. "
| djrogers wrote:
| > All I want to know is if a LEA could subpoena Apple for the
| location of any/all of my AirTags
|
| No, they can't. Only your device can decrypt the beacon info,
| and Apple doesn't store location data.
| lights0123 wrote:
| https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf, see 6.1: "The BLE
| advertisements sent out by a lost device contain an EC public
| key pi. A finder device that receives such an advertisement
| determinesits current location and encrypts the location with
| pi.
| unixhero wrote:
| All we want are better computers with less lockin.
| el_benhameen wrote:
| I'm curious what others are planning to use these for (or what
| they use Tiles, etc. for). I could see putting one on my keys,
| maybe a backpack. What else?
| bob1029 wrote:
| > Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate
| frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking.
|
| I feel like this is going to be quickly reverse-engineered by
| those with SDRs sitting on their desks right now...
| X-Istence wrote:
| Someone already has.
|
| https://appleinsider.com/articles/21/03/04/researchers-rever...
| dangom wrote:
| Does anyone know if this works in 3D? Could it be used to find in
| which floor a car was parked, for example?
| stickac wrote:
| It seems you can add the AirTag technology to a 3rd party product
| via MFi program.
|
| Would it be possible to send a custom payload? E.g. with a status
| report (battery percentage, etc.)
| vonsydov wrote:
| Where are the designers at Apple?
| andrewla wrote:
| What I need is the inverse of this -- my wife is forever losing
| her phone around the house, and I need a button on the wall that
| you can press to activate "find my phone" mode and play a beep on
| it.
|
| EDIT: Thank you for all the suggestions!
|
| I'm aware that this is possible from another iPhone or iWatch or
| iPad -- this is the current workflow. Use my phone or take the
| ipad away from the kids to play the beep. Is a button on the wall
| too much to ask for?
|
| I've actually experimented with the iCloud API to try to get this
| functionality to work, but it's not a supported API so I run into
| the uncrossable chasm of "put your password in this python file
| and voila!".
| jfengel wrote:
| A Tile in fact does that. The Tile has a button. Press and hold
| it, and the device that's tied to the tile will beep. You could
| mount it on the wall, if you wanted to.
| asdff wrote:
| raspberry pi and some script to click through the find my
| iphone website for you and hit the alarm after hitting your
| button.
| andrewla wrote:
| I will pay you cash money for this functionality, if you can
| get it to use a delegatable OAuth2 token instead of requiring
| my iCloud password. I've looked into this, and because this
| particular use case is not supported in the iCloud public
| API, all that remain are horrifying hacks.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Apple Watch has had this "make-my-phone-beep" feature from day
| one and it's been excellent.
| sib wrote:
| If you're talking about an iPhone, it works exactly this way.
| You can use "Find My..." to play a lost sound on the missing
| device.
| singularity2001 wrote:
| Chipolo works both ways. Double tap and your iPhone rings.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| You can ask Siri to play a sound on your wife's phone if you
| have your own iPhone or a Mac nearby.
| andrewla wrote:
| Yes, that is the functionality I use now, and what I want
| this button to activate. Except without the other phone/mac
| involved in the process.
| [deleted]
| bombcar wrote:
| If you setup a HomePod or Find My iPhone correctly, you can
| trigger it from that or your iPhone.
| dangoor wrote:
| Apple Watch can do this, as long as your wife would wear the
| watch.
| Wonnk13 wrote:
| cool concept, but can't help but think about how easy they are to
| cut loose by a thief.
| inasio wrote:
| A week ago my wife dropped her Iphone from a ski lift, and
| couldn't find it afterwards. I went to try and find it, from home
| she used Find my phone to get a picture of the location, and had
| it play sounds when I was nearby. I found it under a foot of
| snow, first try. This has been around for a while now but it was
| the first time I saw it first hand, I was blown away.
| stef25 wrote:
| Only time I used it was when my phone fell out of my pocket in
| a friend's car when he dropped me at home. Find my phone
| clearly showed where it was, traveling through the city and
| amazingly I could still use WhatsApp desktop to message my
| friend to bring it back. Tech is awesome sometimes.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| There are about 100,000,000 pets in the US.
|
| Apple just printed a $B business by figuring out how to monetize
| pets.
| crazygringo wrote:
| I thought one of the big use cases for this was to track stolen
| items, like a backpack or maybe even a bicycle.
|
| But the "anti-stalking" feature will notify someone if an AirTag
| they don't own appears to be traveling with them.
|
| Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then? Since it will
| just notify a thief that the bike they just stole is being
| tracked, and they can look for the AirTag and throw it in the
| nearest trash can?
|
| Not criticizing Apple here -- anti-stalking is super-important --
| but just looking for clarification if this will help you find
| lost items, but not stolen ones.
| tchanglington wrote:
| It's going to be real funny if non Apple users are basically
| fair game for AirTags tracking and you have to get an iPhone to
| protect yourself from AirStalking
| captn3m0 wrote:
| Apparently they can be disabled with any NFC enabled device:
| https://apple.com/newsroom/2021/04/apple-introduces-airtag/
|
| >[...] And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time will
| play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user
| detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone
| or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to
| disable the unknown AirTag.
|
| It is better supported on iPhones, but that's acceptable:
|
| >iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn't with its
| owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be
| traveling with them from place to place over time.
|
| I'd like this detection to come in stock Android, similar to
| how the Contact Tracing thing was shared b/w Apple/Google.
| moooo99 wrote:
| > I'd like this detection to come in stock Android, similar
| to how the Contact Tracing thing was shared b/w
| Apple/Google.
|
| This would be an ideal scenario, even if it took longer to
| roll out for Android phones thanks to the OS fragmentation
|
| Even if that's not happening, I think its not entirely
| unreasonable for some reliable third party app to pop up an
| make disabling the AirTags with an Android device almost as
| easy as an iPhone.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| You can already purchase a huge range of items that do
| exactly what an airtag does. Everyone is already fair game
| for this type of stalking, it is silly to try and paint apple
| in a bad light here.
| paxys wrote:
| How many of these third party devices can use every iPhone,
| iPad and more in the world as a beacon?
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| Tile uses everyone with the tile app installed. It's not
| the same by sheer numbers, but it's more than enough that
| if someone slips a tile tracker on you they will know
| where you're at. Or, if someone wants to spend a bit more
| money, not even much more, they can buy a full GPS
| tracker that doesn't need anything to report on it. Apple
| isn't coming out with some groundbreaking spy tech here,
| this is very routine stuff thats been in a small format
| forever. And guess what, none of the existing ones do
| anything to alert anyone of stalking, unlike Apple. I
| don't even like Apple but this is silly.
| katbyte wrote:
| not to mention tile does it without notifying iphones of
| airtags or the beep when moved.
| ehsankia wrote:
| Does anti-stalking only work for Apple users? I assume it won't
| notify someone who doesn't have an Apple phone, making it kinda
| useless for half the population.
| crazygringo wrote:
| The article isn't entirely clear, but suggests that it will
| use the network of iOS devices around it and that the AirTag
| will start beeping as well.
|
| Seems like it should be able to detect that it's always
| traveling together with a single Android phone's WiFi signal,
| for example.
| Hitton wrote:
| I wonder how hard would it be to disable beeping. There is
| probably a speaker that can be drilled through.
| ehsankia wrote:
| That kinda kills the whole purpose of the tag, which is
| to beep when you lose it. I guess you can still kinda
| find it with the UWB chip on your iPhone, but that's much
| harder than by sound.
| Hitton wrote:
| Not if you want to use the tag to stalk someone.
| gruez wrote:
| >And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time will
| play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
| 05 wrote:
| Just desolder the speaker.
| drdaeman wrote:
| So, this prevents some legitimate use cases, for example
| putting a tag in a suitcase for the flight, because it'll
| start beeping at some point?
|
| A shame. It would've been cool standing at that conveyor
| belt at the airport and rather than staring at the luggage
| as it comes, being able to sense one's own stuff.
|
| Also, seems that it's not suitable for putting on a cat or
| dog's collar for the same reason.
| crazygringo wrote:
| It doesn't say, but I have to assume that it detects it's
| moving, but moving _together_ with an unrecognized cell
| phone or something -- e.g. picking up a single unchanging
| WiFi signal while most other signals come and go.
|
| Of course, if the person being stalked wasn't carrying a
| cell phone, then this raises the possibility the anti-
| stalking wouldn't be activated.
| gruez wrote:
| Presumably "extended period of time" is several days, not
| several hours.
| drdaeman wrote:
| That would defeat the purpose of this anti-tracking
| [counter]measure. One would be able to sneak a tag into
| someone's bag (or clothes, or car) and track their
| movement for the whole day. Then get back into tag's
| proximity to reset the timer.
| gruez wrote:
| If your threat model is 1 day, it's pretty hard to use
| that for any sort of "find lost things" product. If I
| forgot my keychain at work, is it going to beep the
| entire night? What if I'm out sick the next day? Is it
| going to annoy all my coworkers for the entire day?
| drdaeman wrote:
| > If I forgot my keychain at work, is it going to beep
| the entire night?
|
| No, I don't think so.
|
| As I understand it, the idea is that AirTags would only
| beep if they detect being moved (probably,
| accelerometer/motion based, as everything else is
| probably energy cost-prohibitive). So, no, a forgotten
| keychain left on a table shouldn't beep on its own,
| unless someone takes it and carries with themselves for
| some time. It shouldn't even beep if your coworker
| notices your keys and moves them to another room for
| safekeeping.
|
| The idea is that it should _eventually_ alert if you put
| a tag in someone 's back pocket and you or they walk
| away.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Also rental gear.
|
| I could see businesses being a lot more willing to loan
| equipment for a trial period if they could put a tag on
| it.
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| IDK if they've addressed this feature sufficiently well,
| but I assume phones could ignore airtags when set to
| airplane mode.
| Lunatic666 wrote:
| Maybe this changes when you turn on stolen mode for the tagged
| item.
| jedberg wrote:
| So if you want to stalk someone you put your airtag into
| stolen mode first? Kinda defeats the purpose of the anti-
| stalking feature.
| joshe wrote:
| It would make sense to do the anti stalking notification after
| say 4 days. This would make stalking labor intensive since the
| stalker has to swap tags frequently. So if you leave one in
| someone's car or drop it in a bag, you'd have to steal it back
| and replace it. Also if the stalker is unable to track it down,
| the victim gets notified automatically which makes stalking
| with these much more dangerous for the stalker.
|
| For a stolen item you'd have that much time to track it down.
|
| They could even track if different non-owned tags track the
| same person to stop stalkers diligent enough to swap these
| frequently.
|
| It's an impressively good balancing of usefulness and avoiding
| bad spillover effects.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then?
|
| The other question is: when presented with evidence of stolen
| property, will the local PD enforce the law and assist with the
| retrieval of said property?
| mikestew wrote:
| That's already been answered. Stories abound about "Find My
| Doohickie said it was at this address. I even knocked on the
| door, and the person that answered said, 'yup, have your
| phone, whatta ya gonna do about it?'. Cops said file it with
| insurance." Cops don't care about a $1000 phone, they're not
| going to care about your bicycle, either (which has also been
| proven on multiple occasions).
| Cu3PO42 wrote:
| Cops cared about my stolen bicycle. They took my report,
| were very happy I brought a copy of the original invoice
| and a few weeks later I had mail informing me they had
| retrieved my bicycle and that I could pick it up. This was
| in Germany, mind you.
| dmitrygr wrote:
| That depends on the state you are in. That is how it will
| play out in CA, not at all how it will play out in TX.
| djrogers wrote:
| States can be pretty large and diverse - the town I live
| in in California would have a couple of officers at my
| door in short order if this situation were called in...
| randyrand wrote:
| The do care about stolen vehicles tho. Motorcycle theft is
| a big problem.
| moooo99 wrote:
| AirTags would probably be the cheapest option for
| relatively reliable motorcycle tracking. However, there
| are already devices that can be connected to the bikes
| battery, hence basically run for ages, that also connect
| to GPS and GSM.
|
| Tracking with AirTags assumes the thief (or someone
| closeby) uses an iPhone AND has the 'Fine my' feature
| activated, which is, given how motorcycle thieves operate
| in some areas of the world, is relatively unlikely. So
| you're probably still better off using a GPS+GSM tracker
| amelius wrote:
| > But the "anti-stalking" feature will notify someone if an
| AirTag they don't own appears to be traveling with them.
|
| Another case of your device working against your interests.
|
| I don't care if you have something to hide or not. This just
| sucks at a fundamental level.
| jfengel wrote:
| I'm not sure it's really Apple's fault. You could do the same
| thing with a Tile or other beacon. That's the entire purpose
| of the device.
|
| Apple's trying to prevent misuse of their device. They want
| you to use it to find your keys, not your ex. If you consider
| that an invalid limitation of your device (by notifying your
| ex that they seem to be carrying an unknown tracker)... well,
| let's just say I disagree.
| drdaeman wrote:
| By attempting to prevent misuse they also prevent some
| legitimate and morally unquestionable uses. Like - the most
| obvious examples already mentioned in the comments -
| finding your cat or tracking your checked baggage. There
| are probably more less obvious use cases where something
| temporarily leaves owner's proximity, does not remain
| stationery, but tracking that object's location is
| perfectly legal and not questionable.
|
| And this can be perceived as - arguably - restrictive and
| user-hostile by some.
| duskwuff wrote:
| If the "interest" that you're worried about AirTags "working
| against" is being able to stalk people by attaching trackers
| to them or their belongings -- sincerely, fuck you. It is
| entirely appropriate for Apple to build functionality into
| their products to mitigate this sort of abuse.
| randyrand wrote:
| ....It's alerting thieves that the device they stole is
| being tracked.
|
| That's anti-user. The user is the one trying to do the
| tracking.
| duskwuff wrote:
| And not the user of the phone that is reporting the
| location of those tags to a stalker? Their interests are
| important too.
|
| Anyways, I don't think there was ever any intent for
| AirTags to function as an anti-theft tracking device.
| Anti-theft is much harder to do well than anti-loss
| (which is what Apple is targeting), and is very difficult
| to distinguish from stalkerware for a mass-market
| product.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Not all thieves are smart.
|
| In fact I would hazard to say most are not.
| zxcvgm wrote:
| I too, found the anti-stalking features might hinder the use of
| AirTags for locating intentionally stolen items: (1) it has a
| removable battery, and also (2) "someone can tap [the tag] with
| their iPhone or NFC-capable device and instructions will guide
| them to disable the unknown AirTag".
|
| The anti-stalking feature also seems to contradict its privacy
| features:
|
| > Bluetooth signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate
| frequently to prevent unwanted location tracking.
|
| But also, in the next sentence:
|
| > iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn't with its
| owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be
| traveling with them from place to place over time.
|
| If an AirTag is supposed to be "anonymous", then how can a user
| be informed that this tag has been seen with them over an
| extended period? This would mean that there _is_ a way to
| identify a particular AirTag in the first place.
| randyrand wrote:
| tags rotate identifiers, but only every hour or so.
| billyhoffman wrote:
| A local device like an iPhone has to know what AirTags are
| yours, since they have to guide to back to the beacon. If
| your iPhone notices beacons that appear at multiple
| locations, that aren't yours, it can detect that.
| novok wrote:
| Its private from 3rd parties, but not private from apple and
| whoever subpoenas them.
|
| Apply this principle to everything apple does and says about
| privacy and you see it everywhere in their products.
|
| Even more cynically, you can say it's private from their
| competitors.
| billyhoffman wrote:
| They say in the AirTag video that "Everyone can participate
| without sharing their location with anyone, even Apple"
|
| https://youtu.be/JdBYVNuky1M?t=570
| conradev wrote:
| That is not true. All locations are encrypted with a public
| key before being uploaded to Apple's servers, and only the
| user's devices (which contain the private key) can decrypt
| the location.
| dhagz wrote:
| Yep, Apple hasn't exactly hidden that's how they do
| privacy. They give you an identifier that makes sense to
| their systems, but won't make sense to other observers.
| They still track you, they just don't tie it to PII (I'm
| assuming there are ways to associate your "anonymous" ID to
| you though, since it's probably wrapped up with iCloud
| stuff somewhere - it would just take an arcane query of
| some sort).
| gleenn wrote:
| I think it's a pretty reasonable response given malls and
| other places were scooping up bluetooth and wifi Mac
| addresses and using them to identify patrons. Sure, only
| Apple knows so it might possibly have some benefit to Apple
| and even less possibly a detriment to competitors, but it
| definitely increases privacy and I find that very
| compelling. Your iPhone/Android already knows where you are
| with location services enabled. I'd rather Apple keep
| everything as private as possible and it's not like their
| getting a huge data gain.
| [deleted]
| dividuum wrote:
| Here's a detailed protocol reverse engineering paper:
| https://arxiv.org/pdf/2103.02282.pdf
|
| My guess would be that you, as the tag owner, locally store
| the master beacon key and can use it to derive key required
| to decrypt received beacon payloads for your own tags. You
| can then filter out your own and approximate how many others
| (which you cannot link over time) you permanently see. If it
| is more than one most of the time, you're probably tagged
| without your consent.
| mooman219 wrote:
| This seems like a problematic situation. In a vacuum I can
| see how they want to mitigate the stalking risks, but as of
| right now, unless you have a recently updated Apple device
| then, then you're completely ignored by the stalking
| mitigations. There's nothing official from Apple on the
| Google Play store that would mitigate that situation as
| well. This just seems like a low barrier to entry stalking
| tool on the extreme side of use cases for people Apple
| doesn't have business interests with.
| crazygringo wrote:
| AirTags are anonymous _to other end users_.
|
| Obviously Apple is _internally_ maintaining an association
| between the AirTag 's permanent identifier, and its current
| temporary signal identifier.
|
| This isn't E2EE or anything.
| mercutio2 wrote:
| Huh? It certainly is E2EE.
|
| "Whether attached to a handbag, keys, backpack, or other
| items, AirTag taps into the vast, global Find My network1
| and can help locate a lost item, all while keeping location
| data private and anonymous with end-to-end encryption."
| crazygringo wrote:
| Is the E2EE applying to the Bluetooth ID's?
|
| I think it's referring to other aspects of the system --
| this sentence is specifically referring to _location
| data_ , not Bluetooth ID's.
|
| In any case, my point remains that obviously Apple has to
| be internally associating the Bluetooth ID's with owner
| ID's.
| blep-arsh wrote:
| They aren't. The tag generates and broadcasts a public
| key that is rotated every 15 minutes. A nearby "finder"
| device receives a broadcast, encrypts its location with
| the received key and sends it with a hash of the public
| key to Apple's anonymous location directory. The owner
| (who keeps the same key pair rotation algorithm running
| from the same seed key) can look up a bunch of key hashes
| for a range of 15-minute intervals and then fetch and
| decrypt location payloads. No device or account IDs are
| transmitted in the process.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Ah ha, got it, thanks -- I was definitely incorrect then.
| Wish I could edit my original comment to say "never mind"
| but the edit window passed.
| omegaworks wrote:
| Even with E2EE it makes sense that it is still possible
| to differentiate "registered, known" tags from "unknown"
| tags. Unknown tags won't reveal any information about who
| owns them, but they will still transmit on the same
| frequencies and with the same protocol as your air tags.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| "Your AirTag sends out a secure Bluetooth signal that can
| be detected by nearby devices in the Find My network. These
| devices send the location of your AirTag to iCloud -- then
| you can go to the Find My app and see it on a map. The
| whole process is anonymous and encrypted to protect your
| privacy. And it's efficient, so there's no need to worry
| about battery life or data usage."
|
| "Only you can see where your AirTag is. Your location data
| and history are never stored on the AirTag itself. Devices
| that relay the location of your AirTag also stay anonymous,
| and that location data is encrypted every step of the way.
| So not even Apple knows the location of your AirTag or the
| identity of the device that helps find it."
|
| So no, Apple actively doesn't want to know anything. I'd
| wager a guess that the airtag query system is using the
| same kind of method as the COVID tracker API.
| spoonjim wrote:
| The anti-stalking feature seems to be... preventing someone
| from tracking your movements with an AirTag? I don't get it.
| fencepost wrote:
| Several factors play into it - how much is it used for 'lost'
| vs 'stolen(?)' as well as 'if stolen, by someone savvy enough
| to be checking for tags?' and 'if stolen how long before anti-
| stalking alerts? Does it alert during daily commutes on the
| same train? Only after 2+ hours? 3+?'
| gnicholas wrote:
| This is a good question. I wonder what the period of time is
| required before it notifies you about potential stalking. If it
| is more time than would typically take for someone to realize
| that the item is stolen, then perhaps it's not such a big deal.
| But if it's only 30 minutes or so, a thief could be notified
| that they've stolen a bicycle that's being tracked before you
| come out of the grocery store, movie theater, etc.
|
| A related question: can you geofence an airtag so that you are
| notified if an item leaves an area without you? This could be
| especially helpful for things like bikes that you would park
| for long periods of time and would want to know if they're
| being moved by someone other than you.
| [deleted]
| fshbbdssbbgdd wrote:
| 30 minutes seems totally infeasible. People hang out for 30
| minutes all the time.
| gnicholas wrote:
| The anti-stalking warning is only triggered if the airtag
| isn't near the owner.
| [deleted]
| OkGoDoIt wrote:
| I wonder how this works in practice? My main use for an AirTag
| would be to put on my cat's collar. But if it starts beeping
| randomly that's going to be a problem.
| nerfhammer wrote:
| desolder the speaker or piezo.
| FateOfNations wrote:
| Apple's response would be that AirTag isn't designed for that
| use case, and that you should purchase a "Find My network
| enabled" collar for your cat from a third party (it's only a
| matter of time...)
| gruez wrote:
| >Does this render it useless for anti-theft, then?
|
| It's hard to make tracking devices hidden. They need to phone
| home, so that means they emit a signal. Someone can sniff that
| out using a RF detector. that's why tracking devices tend to be
| integrated into the product itself (eg. into the ECU for cars,
| or part of the CPU/motherboard for computers).
| inasio wrote:
| It's much easier to have a phone that will easily tell you if
| there is AirTag around you than having an RF detector.
| gruez wrote:
| A RF detector costs $15-$25 shipped from china. If RF anti-
| theft devices become common (either the GSM or the
| bluetooth variety), I'm sure it'll be part of a thief's
| toolkit.
| Voline wrote:
| The majority of bike thieves in Portland are not going to
| buy a $15-$20 RF detector because that would have to come
| out of their meth budget. They are not a tech-savvy lot.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| I suspect some posters are imagining bike thieves as part
| of some kind of international black market for high end
| bikes...maybe that exists but 99% of bike thefts are done
| by the local crackhead who either wants a ride or wants
| to trade it for $20 for some crack or meth.
| toxik wrote:
| A bike thief isn't going to go rf sniffing
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| not yet. If a significant portion of otherwise theft-
| friendly bikes have trackers, I don't see why they wouldn't
| learn to, someone would probably even commoditize the
| sniffing tech to sell to other thiefs.
| dustinmoris wrote:
| > not yet. If a significant portion of otherwise theft-
| friendly bikes have trackers, I don't see why they
| wouldn't learn to, someone would probably even
| commoditize the sniffing tech to sell to other thiefs.
|
| They wouldn't because we already have TONS of historical
| data that thieves don't do that.
|
| I am a motorcycle lover and like every owner of a nice
| bike I know that apart from properly chaining your bike
| down the single most effective way of retrieving your
| bike back is by having a tracker on it. In fact some
| insurance companies give a big discount if you have a
| professionally mounted tracker on your bike.
|
| History has shown that despite motorcycles being worth
| 10-20k thieves still don't go through the effort of
| locating and removing a GPS tracker. What they do is the
| following... they steal your bike and only move it like
| 10 streets further away from its original location into
| some hidden dark dead end alley where no person would
| normally go and where the owner wouldn't find it by
| accident. Then they leave it there standing for like 2
| weeks and if nobody comes to pick it up within those 2
| weeks then they know there is no GPS tracker at which
| point they can safely take it back to their garage where
| it gets dismantled into and rebuild. Otherwise they risk
| of having their garage being exposed.
|
| Now you might ask why only take it 10 streets further
| away? Because the easiest way is to cut a chain or some
| poor security and then wheel it down the road for 5
| minutes. Only two weeks later they come with a proper
| vehicle to transport it away.
|
| So if professional thieves can't be bothered (or is just
| practically too difficult) to locate a tracker then I'm
| sure normal opportunistic thieves won't be able either.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| I guess bicycles thieves are either savvier or have an
| easier job.
|
| Their modus operandi is to throw a bicycle into a truck
| or van, move them in lots of fifty across state lines,
| and tear them down to components.
|
| Any trackers will be quickly rendered useless once
| they're in the van, and immediately found and discarded.
|
| I'm definitely planning on getting Airtags for my bikes,
| but mostly for amusement and occasionally forgetting
| where I parked, I don't have much faith in them as an
| anti-theft device.
| filoleg wrote:
| >I guess bicycles thieves are either savvier or have an
| easier job.
|
| They do have an easier job, I think, given that bicycles
| don't usually weigh between 400lb (sports motorcycles)
| and 900lb (cruisers).
| 05 wrote:
| > Any trackers will be quickly rendered useless once
| they're in the van
|
| You can build a custom LoRa based tracker with 100+km
| range (line of sight), a van won't disable that. You'll
| have to use signal triangulation, though, because GPS
| reception in a van won't be great.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Hint: tight up under the Brooks saddle with hot glue.
| zikduruqe wrote:
| Heck, my B17 is worth more than one of my bikes.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| yeah, I'm gonna do that short term, and looking into a
| 3D-printed mount that clamps onto the rails for the long
| term
|
| still kind of silly since a saddle is an easily stolen
| part
| themaninthedark wrote:
| What they do makes sense from a risk point of view.
| Trackers are various shapes, sizes and can be mounted
| different ways, if they miss one they blow their
| operation. Easier to delay payoff by 2 weeks.
|
| The difference between the GPS and these tags is they
| actively respond to bluetooth. If you can sniff the
| bluetooth traffic then you would be able to detect them
| easily?
| kjakm wrote:
| I thought it was intended for lost items rather than stolen
| items. I've had my phone stolen multiple times and thieves know
| exactly what to do to prevent 'find my' activating. I'm sure it
| wouldn't take them long to find/disable AirTags either.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Yes but you know a phone can be tracked.
|
| If it's someone's backpack or leather jacket, it won't be
| obvious in any way if there's an AirTag slid deep into some
| pocket.
|
| Sure a professional thief might check, but plenty of things
| are stolen casually by people who simply see something lying
| around.
| randyrand wrote:
| It's for both.
| gruez wrote:
| >I've had my phone stolen multiple times and thieves know
| exactly what to do to prevent 'find my' activating. I'm sure
| it wouldn't take them long to find/disable AirTags either.
|
| ...putting it in a faraday bag? Since tags are cheap, they
| can even smash it.
| shuckles wrote:
| Vanmoof seems to have adopted the Find My spec and integrated
| it into their bike hardware itself. AirTag is for lost items.
| Hardware manufacturers can build Find My support into their
| product to defend against stolen items. I'd guess that's the
| strategy.
| [deleted]
| koolba wrote:
| In a week you'll see wrist bands or underwear with a slot to
| insert these and paranoid parents will buy them by the thousands.
|
| Ditto for jealous spouses (secret tracer in the trunk anyone?).
| p49k wrote:
| No they won't - read the article. Numerous protections against
| it being used as a "secret tracer"
| smiley1437 wrote:
| It's such a powerful tracking device that it has to be nerfed
| to be sold.
|
| Because too many people's first thought is to stalk\track
| people secretly.
|
| Technology isn't the problem, people are!
| mandeepj wrote:
| I'm thinking about placing it inside my car
| dangom wrote:
| Yes - especially curious if it works in 3D, e.g., in a parking
| garage.
| flowerlad wrote:
| I was thinking the same thing. Can AirTag help me find my car
| if I forgot where I parked?
| mandeepj wrote:
| Absolutely. I believe it'll find anything where it's placed -
| shoes, rackets, dog etc
| djrogers wrote:
| Your iPhone can do that on it's own if you connect it to a
| bluetooth or CarPlay headset when you're in the car... It
| will remember where you are when you disconnect from it and
| tag it on the map for you.
|
| [1]https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/find-your-parked-
| car-...
| osynavets wrote:
| Considering world environmental issues we should slow down
| consumerism around the world rather than accelerate it. For me it
| looks like a useless piece of tech in a long run (30-50 years).
| My opinion
| tomjen3 wrote:
| On the other hand, a lost bag containing a laptop would result
| in the use of a lot of materials if you wanted to replace it +
| contents.
| [deleted]
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| I wonder if Apple has access to APIs that they will not provide
| Tile.
|
| If so, they might be in a legal grey area.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| What I find hilarious is that most of the examples are about
| finding keys.
|
| I don't use keys anymore. I can get into my car and house with my
| phone.
| josho wrote:
| I have keys, yet I don't consider it a large enough problem to
| spend $30 to solve.
|
| However, once covid ends I would consider buying one of these
| for my laptop bag.
| puttycat wrote:
| This is truly revolutionary for pet owners. All existing
| solutions I know of have at least one fault-intolerant property
| that makes them useless for the lost-pet use case (battery / size
| / unreliable connection coverage / etc.)
|
| If I understand correctly Apple tags solve all of these at once.
| [deleted]
| duskwuff wrote:
| This isn't suitable for pets. The crowdsourced Bluetooth
| tracking will only really work for objects which will stay in
| one place when lost -- which pets are notorious for not doing.
|
| For finding a lost pet, you really want something with cell
| reception and a GPS for real-time location. There's a number of
| products which specifically provide this, like the Whistle dog
| tag. Unfortunately, they're bulkier and require relatively
| frequent charging, but that's the price you pay for that
| functionality.
| toddh wrote:
| Unfortunately Whistle doesn't work in areas with poor
| coverage. And then there's the battery issues. A tag would at
| least be a good redundancy solution.
| duskwuff wrote:
| AirTags depends on other users with iOS devices to track
| devices out of range of your phone. If you're in an area
| with limited to no cell coverage, there probably aren't
| many people wandering around with iOS devices either --
| especially not ones with cell connectivity to upload the
| locations where they spotted your tag.
| randyrand wrote:
| in lost mode the tracking frequency goes to real time.
| post_break wrote:
| What, no. It literally shows the device on the map moving
| from ping to ping in san francisco on the airtags website.
| limaoscarjuliet wrote:
| I used tractive. It is bulky and requires daily charging
| making it not so good for cats. I will likely play with Air
| Tag, as my cats usually travel in highly populated areas, so
| they should be seen by many people.
| psychometry wrote:
| Would you like to hear the lecture about why cats should be
| kept indoors now? Or have you already heard and ignored it
| many times?
| ambivalents wrote:
| This was my first thought. Is there any downside to putting one
| on my dog?
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| > And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time will
| play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
|
| I think there is no way to disable that feature, and that's
| by design.
|
| Depends on how much distance is "separation" I guess, and how
| close you stick to your dog at all times, heh.
| crazysim wrote:
| The anti anti stalking crowd will probably just jam a pin
| or pen into the speaker and permanently disable it,
| rhplus wrote:
| The removable battery might be a problem if it's easily
| dislodged by scratching at a the collar.
| andrewmunsell wrote:
| No cell/GPS, so it won't track your dog if it gets lost in
| the forest or something. There are other (bulkier) trackers
| if you live in those sorts of areas, but otherwise I have a
| Tile on my dog's leash right now just to keep tabs on where
| she is when she's with a trusted caretaker like my parents.
| I'll probably switch it to an AirTag now because the network
| will have better coverage
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| As with many things in life though it would be better than
| nothing since there are scenarios when it will help you
| find your dog.
| millerm wrote:
| Yeah, a lot of people applying the Nirvana fallacy here.
| lucasverra wrote:
| "It won't work after 72 hours of losing your dog while
| doing a space expedition on Mars!"
| azinman2 wrote:
| The Whistle works quite well. And if your dog is somewhere
| where no other iPhone's are around, it'll still work.
| burlesona wrote:
| The "commercial" they used to introduce this during the event was
| hilarious and awesome:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbApA2JLZ_c
| rkuykendall-com wrote:
| Reminded me of the Hello Tomorrow commercial by Adidas / Spike
| Jonze / Karen O:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbBNScrYN10
| xyzwave wrote:
| I interpreted the end as "took psychedelic mushrooms and lost
| your keys? AirTag's got your back".
|
| But maybe that's just me.
| DarrisMackelroy wrote:
| The ipod nano lost in the couch was also a funny little easter
| egg
| rootbear wrote:
| The music is a strange, interesting riff on the _Aquarium_
| movement of Saint-Saens ' _Carnival of the Animals_ , not the
| usual Apple modern pop stuff.
| burlesona wrote:
| Yeah I loved that, it really fit the notion of being lost,
| swimming in the space under your couch cushions haha :)
| jonplackett wrote:
| $29 for the AirTag. _Another_ $29 for the case...?
| djrogers wrote:
| Or $12 for the Belkin one, or $3 for the inevitable amazon
| knockoff....
| smiley1437 wrote:
| I'm sure you'll be able to buy Airtag holders on Aliexpress for
| $1.
|
| Then you just have to wait 6 weeks for shipping
| mc32 wrote:
| WoZ[1] realized.
|
| Wasn't wheels of Zeus a similar idea way back when, just never
| executed?
|
| [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheels_of_Zeus
| justapassenger wrote:
| While it seems like a good product, let's put things into
| perspective of big tech.
|
| Platform owner, that has deep insights into other products on it,
| and their revenue, is creating competing product, that's
| utilizing api and privileges that others cannot. And utilizing
| platform they own to push this product to users, without having
| to pay for it.
| jrochkind1 wrote:
| > If AirTag is separated from its owner and out of Bluetooth
| range, the Find My network can help track it down. The Find My
| network is approaching a billion Apple devices and can detect
| Bluetooth signals from a lost AirTag and relay the location back
| to its owner, all in the background, anonymously and privately.
|
| I had no idea that's how "Find My Phone" worked. I guess I hadn't
| thought about it.
|
| I wonder what the privacy implications are, how do they (or do
| they) stop the "Find My network" from tracking units any time all
| the time?
| setr wrote:
| From the sounds of it, the "network" is just picking up ambient
| Bluetooth noise (which is constantly pinging around to find new
| connections, communicate, maintain existing connections, etc);
| the only way to stop tracking is to shut down Bluetooth
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Page 139-142 has information you might be interested in
|
| https://manuals.info.apple.com/MANUALS/1000/MA1902/en_US/app...
| frabjoused wrote:
| How do these devices connect to the Internet? Do they have a
| built-in SIM? I'm not sure what they piggyback off of
| technologically that gets around having to pay some small SIM
| subscription.
| terramex wrote:
| They connect to any iOS device in the area over Bluetooth and
| use its internet connection to communicate with AirTag's owner
| iCloud account.
| limaoscarjuliet wrote:
| My cats will get tagged first. I used a gps tracker on them, but
| that was not reliable.
| resfirestar wrote:
| I had a Tile set that I put on my keys, backpack, wallet and
| luggage. In the end it was too annoying with bluetooth usage
| draining my phone's battery and not working reliably enough when
| I needed it, now all the Tile stuff is sitting in a drawer. Maybe
| Apple can do better with their attention to UX but the main thing
| I learned is that these things are a whole lot less useful than
| they might sound. Apple probably needs to make them a bit less
| expensive to be successful.
| tinus_hn wrote:
| Modern Bluetooth does not drain batteries. How do you think
| they can run a tag on a button cell for a year?
| resfirestar wrote:
| Was referring to my phone's battery life, not the battery on
| the Tiles themselves. Could have been location services usage
| as well as Bluetooth, and to be fair to Tile they have rolled
| out a lot of updates to the Android app since I stopped using
| it, many of them promising reduced background battery usage.
| duskwuff wrote:
| Bluetooth is pretty power-thrifty, yes. But the Tile app was
| kind of power-hungry, since it had to wake up the phone's CPU
| periodically to keep track of which devices were in range.
| mackrevinack wrote:
| even if they work properly, i can't get past the idea of having
| to replace a battery every year. and you probably wouldn't just
| have one of these either.
|
| its the same reason i could never get into any of that iot
| stuff since they mostly rely on batteries. its just plain
| absurd when you work out how many you would go through in your
| lifetime and is its crazy to think that everyone else would be
| doing the same thing.
| exabrial wrote:
| I'm genuinely surprised the batteries are replaceable. Apple
| isn't a very green company (unless you talk to their marketing
| dept), so to see this is sort of amazing.
| Vybrannt wrote:
| Customers can personalize AirTag with free engraving, including
| text and a selection of 31 emoji, when purchasing them. That's a
| nice touch.
| philip1209 wrote:
| I'm contemplating an AirTag for my dog!
| nikolay wrote:
| Apple has been in a Samsung catch up mode for years now.
| dippydipdips wrote:
| Interesting that I never knew the "Find My" network has all my
| devices participating in finding other people's devices, but I'm
| not surprised. Another reason I leave Bluetooth off by default.
| asadlionpk wrote:
| What's wrong with that?
| thebouv wrote:
| I don't want my device sending or receiving any data using my
| data plan without my knowing. Do apps I have installed send
| shit constantly? Sure. But those are MY apps -- that's on me
| for using them. But if someone else has a tag, and I'm near
| it, my phone shouldn't be used to send/receive data about
| said tag at all. I definitely don't like this "we created a
| network of devices and everyone is opted in" setup.
|
| Similar to the hub-bub raised of Alexa devices "sharing"
| internet connectivity.
| russellendicott wrote:
| Had to scroll way too far in this discussion to find a
| kindred spirit. I despise bluetooth. It's so flaky,
| invasive, and resource hungry.
| duckfang wrote:
| 1. No informed consent that your device can do this
| 2. No positive consent to use it 3. No positive
| consent to allow others to use it on your behalf 4.
| Who controls the spy network? 5. They are using
| your bandwidth and device (similar to theft of resources,
| albeit trivial amounts)
| passivate wrote:
| Not the OP, but I would turn it off simply to conserve
| battery life. I'm still rocking a 6s, and my phone gets
| slower and doesn't last as long with every update.
|
| Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the updates, but I'd also
| like to maximize the battery life.
| astrange wrote:
| It doesn't use any battery life compared to turning the
| screen on.
| danShumway wrote:
| But do you leave your phone's screen turned on 24x7?
|
| I buy that there are _more_ expensive things you can do
| with your phone, but even if turning off Bluetooth is
| only giving you back a small percentage of your total
| battery usage, that might genuinely be noticeable on an
| older device with an older battery.
| astrange wrote:
| I would say it's doubtful it even uses 1% of it. You can
| use low battery mode to more intentionally extend it.
| carlosdp wrote:
| It's privacy preserving with a rotating key scheme, there's a
| cool whitepaper about it that I'm having trouble finding right
| now, but here's an article: https://www.wired.com/story/apple-
| find-my-cryptography-bluet...
| mrfusion wrote:
| Is it ironic the only thing I want to use this on is my Apple TV
| remote?
|
| What kind of other things would you put this on?
| flemhans wrote:
| Car, keys, backpack, purses, suitcase, jackets, bikes, pets
| [deleted]
| mrfusion wrote:
| How does this work under the hood? GPS? Cellular?
| RandallBrown wrote:
| Bluetooth and ultra wide band.
|
| It will use iPhones that are nearby to relay location
| information.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| Very cool though I hope they make it clear that it's not worth
| going after items, even expensive items yourself if they were
| stolen rather than misplaced. Even if the police won't do
| anything about it and you know where the items are. In the bay
| area, they won't for instance. Just please don't go after it
| yourself. It will get people killed.
| randyrand wrote:
| I tend to agree but stolen motorcycles and cars are a big deal
| in SF.
| djrogers wrote:
| > In the bay area, they won't for instance.
|
| Depends where in the Bay Area - it's a big place with a diverse
| grouping of cities. My local PD would definitely retrieve a
| stolen item if it were airtagged, but I imagine Oakland and San
| Jose would be a very different case.
| [deleted]
| eneloopy wrote:
| Would have been nice to have an attachment hole on the device
| itself, rather than requiring you purchase accessories to attach
| to a set of keys, for example.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| Are you trying to kill an entire ecosystem of cheap accessories
| that is going to spring up simply based on the fact that they
| don't have a hole? :P
| digikata wrote:
| Wait for a teardown and select a place to drill your own hole?
| But yes, a surprising lack of design forethought.
| p1mrx wrote:
| If these become popular, you'll probably find plastic adapters
| for $1 on AliExpress.
| ggrelet wrote:
| Just imagine the sheer amount of non recyclable plastic this
| "design choice" by Apple to offer an un-holed product will
| generate. This world has a major problem.
| eneloopy wrote:
| Yeah I'm sure there will be cheap aftermarket alternatives to
| the Apple branded accessories, but it would be nice not to
| have to need an additional purchase for the common use case
| of just tying the thing to something. It also seems a bit
| wasteful
| athorax wrote:
| The holder accessories are as/more expensive as the tracker
| itself lol
|
| > _Apple-designed AirTag accessories include the Leather Key
| Ring in Saddle Brown, (PRODUCT)RED, and Baltic Blue for $35
| (US); the Leather Loop in Saddle Brown and (PRODUCT)RED for $39
| (US); and the Polyurethane Loop in White, Deep Navy, Sunflower,
| and Electric Orange for $29 (US)._
| twobitshifter wrote:
| I imagine the Hermes holder is going to be much more than
| that.
| [deleted]
| phinnaeus wrote:
| https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MX872AM/A/airtag-
| herm%C3%...
| polyvisual wrote:
| My side business is making handmade/handstitched leather
| belts, wallets etc.
|
| These keyfob holders look like the sort of thing I'd make and
| sell... probably for the same PS cost as the Apple branded,
| mass-produced alternatives.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| Thank you for chiming in with your experience. I, like many
| others, assumed these accessories were being sold with an
| exorbitant markup but it seems like they may be pretty
| reasonably priced.
| phinnaeus wrote:
| I'm not sure that's what polyvisual meant. If they
| handmake an item and it sells for the same price as a
| mass-produced item, the mass-produced item is definitely
| marked up.
| curiousgal wrote:
| Small decisions like this is what makes me despise their
| tactics. All of the crap about the environment and all is
| nothing but hot air.
| ggrelet wrote:
| I don't understand why you are being donwvoted. Your comment
| is true in every way.
| klener wrote:
| "The Find My network is approaching a billion Apple devices and
| can detect Bluetooth signals from a lost AirTag and relay the
| location back to its owner, all in the background, anonymously
| and privately." Is a feature like this already in use?
| freddyheppell wrote:
| I'm pleasantly surprised these have user-replaceable standard
| button batteries, definitely wasn't expecting that.
| kolinko wrote:
| May be due to their commutment to carbon neutrality and
| low/zero waste?
| chrisbolt wrote:
| It's less wasteful to use disposable and non-rechargeable
| batteries?
| tlrobinson wrote:
| Many of the competitors are entirely disposable. I'm not
| aware of any very small ones that are rechargeable.
| hundchenkatze wrote:
| There's more to these than just batteries. If they had
| sealed-in a rechargeable battery then you'd have to throw
| out the whole thing and buy a new one once it stopped
| holding a charge. This way you can just buy your own
| rechargeable CR2032 batteries.
| asdff wrote:
| Better to replace a single battery after a year than throw
| away an entire perfectly good speaker and earbud and a
| spent battery after two years, like with airpods.
| ffggvv wrote:
| probably just the only practical thing. don't imagine people
| wanting to charge these things
| bosswipe wrote:
| Is it cross platform? Can't find the info.
| madengr wrote:
| It will be interesting to see/do a teardown of this. I'm
| wondering if the UWB is separate from the Bluetooth (which I
| assume is 5.0), though it's probably in a single ASIC.
|
| This claims the UWB is at 6 and 8 GHz, but they fail to show the
| antennas.
|
| https://www.techinsights.com/blog/apple-iphone-11-pro-max-te...
|
| Now we see that Apple patents slot antennas; what a load of shit:
|
| https://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2020/08/apple-p...
| isatty wrote:
| I've been waiting for this! I decided to not get the Tile etc
| because I did not want to give my information to a third party,
| but I'm already deep in the apple ecosystem.
|
| Find my is a great app that I use even to locate my devices in my
| own house.
| WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote:
| If I was evil and stuck these to ex-girlfriend/boyfriend car or
| something, illegal?
|
| Edit: Downvoters. I am not doing this obviously. Am asking as
| this is the clear abuse I see. Tracking people without
| permission.
|
| I see this as being a weird legal thing we hear about down the
| road.
| Qahlel wrote:
| Put it in the seams of the bag...
|
| and then you can rob the house -or worse- after figuring out
| their schedule... and it's only $30!
| dbt00 wrote:
| except that of course your iphone will notify you if it sees
| an airtag that's not yours frequently.
| thebouv wrote:
| If you have an iPhone yes. Will it let the Android users
| know?
| ping_pong wrote:
| If you have an iphone. But outside the US, Android is far
| more popular.
|
| But this also begs the question, if I steal something with
| an AirTag on it, my iPhone would tell me that the item has
| an AirTag on it.
| p49k wrote:
| If you don't have an iPhone, the tag will just start
| beeping by itself whenever it's moved. This is covered in
| the article.
| t0mas88 wrote:
| You're being down voted because this is described on the page.
| If a tag not linked to your phone travels with you frequently
| while being away from its owner you'll get a notification.
| urmish wrote:
| What if the person you're tracking doesn't have an apple
| device?
| [deleted]
| gruez wrote:
| from the article:
|
| >And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time
| will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
| rodiger wrote:
| What if you don't have an iPhone?
| shuckles wrote:
| If you don't have an iPhone, your device isn't assisting
| the tracker. This is equivalent to being tracked by any one
| of the many existing such devices.
| p49k wrote:
| That's in the article too. It will start beeping when moved
| if it's following someone that's not the owner for a while.
| booleandilemma wrote:
| So if a thief steals my jacket with an AirTag inside,
| some time later it'll start beeping? At which point he'll
| discard the AirTag and I won't be able to track down my
| jacket. Kinda lame.
| gruez wrote:
| That's why it's advertised as "find things that got lost"
| product, and not "find things that got stolen" product
| (eg. lojack).
| shuckles wrote:
| You assume that in a counter-factual world, professional
| thieves can't learn to check the pockets of stolen
| jackets? They are already known to use Bluetooth network
| scanners to identify, eg, cars with electronics stored
| inside.
| zepto wrote:
| Not if the alert is delayed
| wombat-man wrote:
| I think Apple decided preventing people from using
| Airtags to stalk someone is more important than
| preventing theft. Makes sense to me, can you imagine a
| high profile murder occurring because the perp was able
| to follow them with an airtag?
| kstrauser wrote:
| I could see having a wider window, say 2 days, for
| reporting itself. That would give you some time to find
| your stolen stuff, but would still be an expensive pain
| in the ass for the stalker to rotate that frequently.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| You're assuming the stalker is some rando, not, say, a
| jealous spouse who wants to make sure they really are
| going to work every day.
| rodiger wrote:
| Doesn't help if it's, say, on the undercarriage/trunk of
| your car.
| adolph wrote:
| I was thinking law enforcement but same deal.
| dbt00 wrote:
| From the link: "iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that
| isn't with its owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag
| is seen to be traveling with them from place to place over
| time."
| themaninthedark wrote:
| But that will only work if you have an Apple device/AirTag
| app installed right?
| sss111 wrote:
| >even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time
| will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
| technofiend wrote:
| That's cool and all, but how do they handle a trainload of
| people all going the same direction sitting near each other?
| I mean public transportation is still a thing.
| function_seven wrote:
| When you get off the train, pick the one that sticks with
| you.
| pseudalopex wrote:
| It has to be away from the owner to trigger the warning.
| dariusj18 wrote:
| So after the owner accidentally leaves it on the train,
| someone will be notified to look for whatever item was so
| important that it needed to be tracked.
| ragazzina wrote:
| > Of course, if you happen to be with a friend who has an
| AirTag, or on a train with a whole bunch of people with
| AirTag, don't worry. These alerts are triggered only when
| an AirTag is separated from its owner.
| gnicholas wrote:
| It only triggers if it's not with the owner but is with
| someone else. I wonder what happens if you put your luggage
| on a train and sit down elsewhere on the train. Would it
| recognize that it is still, generally speaking, with the
| owner?
| graeme wrote:
| Airplane transport crews may come to hate Airtags. I can
| imagine a lot of beeping luggage.
| [deleted]
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| They mentioned this exact scenario on their website[1]
|
| > Of course, if you happen to be with a friend who has an
| AirTag, or on a train with a whole bunch of people with
| AirTag, don't worry. These alerts are triggered only when
| an AirTag is separated from its owner.
|
| 1. https://www.apple.com/airtag/
| dariusj18 wrote:
| So if my family has a single car and we share keys it's
| going to annoy each of us that isn't the owner of the
| tag.
| p49k wrote:
| I assume "over time" means for a long enough period to
| eliminate the possibility that you're on a train with other
| people.
| hyperpl wrote:
| Some train rides are quite long
| NovemberWhiskey wrote:
| I don't know what Apple is doing behind the scenes here,
| but if I were Apple, I would generate much more "signal"
| from "this AirTag is traveling with this _one_ person
| that is not its owner " than from "this AirTag is
| traveling with _forty_ people that are not its owner ".
| technofiend wrote:
| And maybe this tag is generating a stronger signal than
| any other and is registered to me. Apple is all about the
| user experience so I assume they have a solution, just
| curious what it is.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| I wonder how they allow a device to tell that the same AirTag
| is being seen repeatedly without allowing malicious third-
| parties to do the same?
|
| I thought the system was designed in such a way that the data
| is meaningless to anyone but the owner of the tag, so that
| third-parties can't learn anything from said data.
| function_seven wrote:
| My speculation:
|
| The iOS device keeps seeing a random AirTag in close
| proximity. Even as the ID rotates, it's still about 2m
| away, and continues to be 2m away as you move. It doesn't
| know who it belongs to, but it's probably the same physical
| device, because it keeps going to wherever _you 're_ going.
|
| That's a different scenario than the evil store owner who
| wants to track their customers. In that case, it's just a
| random procession of tags roaming about the store. A tag
| arriving at the store on repeated days has nothing to
| indicate that it's the same one.
|
| So if it's being used as a malicious tracker (hidden in
| someone's car or purse), then the constant proximity is a
| clue. But if someone is trying to guess which tag belongs
| to a specific person, they can't unless they maintain
| constant contact with that tag over a long timeline. At
| that point, they can just _see_ you :)
| shuckles wrote:
| The random ID has a fixed suffix in the spec, so you can
| infer that it's the same AirTag if you see the same
| suffix across multiple rotations.
| gruez wrote:
| how long is the suffix? I can't see it being effective
| for both anti-stalking (ie. someone placing a tag on you
| without your consent) and anti-tracking (ie. shops/malls
| using your tag to follow you around).
| function_seven wrote:
| I don't know the answer to that, but thinking about it
| generally: If the suffix was just a single hex digit, it
| would work to detect a persistent tag. After, say 5 key
| rotations, if the last digit is still "E", then it's
| highly likely that the tag that's constantly in range is
| the same physical thing.
|
| Meanwhile, if you're trying to use these things to track
| visitors to your store, you're only getting 16 bins of
| people. My "E" tag will be the same as 50 other people
| who've visited last week with the same "E" suffix.
|
| I'm having a hard time finding the actual whitepaper on
| this. Hopefully someone links it in this thread.
| shuckles wrote:
| Unfortunately, the spec is currently only available to
| partners in the MFi program. That is probably where
| parameters like the one you are asking about are defined:
| https://developer.apple.com/find-my/. I'm sure there will
| be a paper published that reverse engineers the spec once
| these devices are out in the wild.
|
| The protocol is in Ivan Kristic's Black Hat 2019 talk:
| https://i.blackhat.com/USA-19/Thursday/us-19-Krstic-
| Behind-T...
|
| Finally, the static part of the broadcast doesn't need to
| be permanently static. It simply needs to rotate at a
| period that's longer than the rest of the public key.
| ghostpepper wrote:
| It may not be foolproof (ie. if the person in question
| doesn't use iOS) but at least this shows Apple has considered
| the potential for abuse.
| p49k wrote:
| Apple covered the "person being tracked doesn't use iOS
| case" - read the article.
| mlindner wrote:
| They covered that too.
|
| > And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time
| will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
| [deleted]
| capableweb wrote:
| So what about the majority of people who do not own an iOS
| device? They can be tracked?
|
| Somehow I don't see this idea working out when law makers
| start seeing what kind of things this product enables.
| lancepioch wrote:
| You realize these devices already exist and for much
| cheaper right? In fact you can buy or make your own with
| gps and a sim card too. This technology isn't new at all.
| Even this exact product isn't new, you can already do this
| with Tile. The big difference is that AirTags are more
| secure.
| [deleted]
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| > And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time
| will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
| capableweb wrote:
| I'm not sure how that solves anything. I'm worried about
| situations like people tracking others by placing the
| AirTag on their person. If they gotten close to them
| once, they can probably do it more times too, to
| retrigger the inactivity period.
| jliptzin wrote:
| Good luck hearing that when it's stuck to the bottom of
| your car.
|
| That being said, plenty of devices are already available
| to cheaply track people without them knowing.
| [deleted]
| mlindner wrote:
| >And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time will
| play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
|
| So even non-Apple users will get alerted if they're being
| tracked with it.
| asdff wrote:
| Non apple users who aren't hard of hearing, that is.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Does this mean that if your phone dies or you turn it off
| during a movie your keys will randomly beep at you?
| rp1229 wrote:
| No -- it has be 'over time' which can be inferred to mean
| more than 2 hours.
| DangerousPie wrote:
| I suspect "an extended period of time" will not be an hour
| two.
| asdff wrote:
| How long is that, though? I wish Apple spoke in absolutes
| when discussing technical details. Some people shut their
| phone off to golf or do some other outdoor activity, like
| hiking. Some rounds take close to 6 hours on public
| courses depending on pace of play. Imagine your friend is
| trying to putt then your air tagged golf bag starts going
| off on the 18th green.
| themaninthedark wrote:
| Or lend a backpack to a friend to go on a week long
| camping trip?
| sib wrote:
| They've thought about this use case and actually tried to do
| something about it:
|
| "iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn't with its
| owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be
| traveling with them from place to place over time."
| endisneigh wrote:
| Downvoted because this is literally addressed in the article:
|
| > AirTag is also designed with a set of proactive features that
| discourage unwanted tracking, an industry first. Bluetooth
| signal identifiers transmitted by AirTag rotate frequently to
| prevent unwanted location tracking. iOS devices can also detect
| an AirTag that isn't with its owner, and notify the user if an
| unknown AirTag is seen to be traveling with them from place to
| place over time. And even if users don't have an iOS device, an
| AirTag separated from its owner for an extended period of time
| will play a sound when moved to draw attention to it. If a user
| detects an unknown AirTag, they can tap it with their iPhone or
| NFC-capable device and instructions will guide them to disable
| the unknown AirTag.
| Hadriel wrote:
| just wrap the airtag in something that reduces sound and now
| u can track android users. no one is gonna head something on
| the bottom of their car.
| Closi wrote:
| Or, you know, just buy a cheap mobile phone and use any one
| of the number of existing android tracking apps.
| FridayoLeary wrote:
| i suspect this is one of the reasons airtags are so delayed.
| see macrumors.com
| agumonkey wrote:
| I'm surprised I never ran into something like this on
| aliexpress.. I've seen a few spypen popping up
| kalleboo wrote:
| There are lots of GPS tracking devices that phone home over
| 3G. But they're all bulky and have terrible battery life.
| These (like the Tile devices that came before them) just use
| Bluetooth LE to talk to any phone nearby that will listen (in
| Tiles case it was their small network of owners, for AirTag
| it's any modern iPhone), and that phone will do the actual
| GPS tracking.
| slezyr wrote:
| These things are called beacons
|
| https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=S.
| ..
| freeflight wrote:
| I also originally wondered about that, but they use Bluetooth
| for tracking.
|
| Doesn't mention what version, but even with Bluetooth 5.0 the
| maximum range would be around 400 m/1.000 ft under ideal
| circumstances.
|
| So the tracking would only work if you actively pursued the
| target to stay in range.
|
| Probably much more practical to go for an actual GPS-tracker,
| magnetic versions of those can be bought on Amazon for like 50
| bucks.
| jonplackett wrote:
| The whole point of everyone's objections is that it _also_
| can be spotted by the wider network of all the other iPhones
| in the world, including whoever steals it (or is being
| stalked using it).
| matthew-wegner wrote:
| Any iOS device will relay the AirTag's beacons to iCloud---
| not just your devices.
|
| If you lose a tracked device, you can see its location if a
| random person's Internet-enabled iDevice hears any of its
| chirps. The stranger's device doing the relaying is unable to
| decrypt the contents; it just forwards the data to Apple.
| cute_boi wrote:
| hmm I don't think I would like my device should send data
| for others property (AirTag) becons to cloud?
|
| Why should I spent my data cost to send beacons for someone
| else?
|
| I hope it can be disabled.
| just-ok wrote:
| Yeah I'm surprised more people aren't mentioning this:
| I'm really not a fan of being an involuntary participant
| in Apple's mesh network.
|
| I guess I could monitor my Bluetooth status more often,
| but the Control Center toggle (intentionally) doesn't
| turn it off entirely...
| patwolf wrote:
| I like the idea. The price is decent. However, I feel like I've
| hit a limit for the number of shiny electronic things I want in
| my life.
| p49k wrote:
| I am so happy to finally rid myself of all Tile devices after
| this announcement. Tile has been one of the worst companies I've
| ever dealt with when it comes to dark patterns. Their app is one
| of the few I'd describe as having UI that's actively hostile
| toward the customer.
| larrybud wrote:
| In what way? I'm a tile user and can't say that I've found
| their app to be hostile.
| dharmab wrote:
| Mostly I find the app to be really pushy on sales.
| buzzert wrote:
| I haven't heard about this. Can you explain more?
| benguillet wrote:
| I couldn't find the answer in the article: will it warn right
| away when they detect you left your keys or backpack behind with
| a tag in it? Tile has this and it's great, but you need to pay
| the subscription for it
| cHaOs667 wrote:
| AirTag shows what Nokia tried to achieve with their Treasure Tag
| system back in 2014. Hopefully they work more reliable and that
| the Find My Network Accessory program will be implemented by more
| manufactures. Stuff like this can be useful for some people.
| presentation wrote:
| Will this support notifying me when a tag goes out of range from
| my phone? That's when I lose things, but no tag seems to do that,
| which to me is by far the only useful feature for these things.
| gregoriol wrote:
| Come on Apple, stop stealing ideas from others.
| zepto wrote:
| Do you think Tile came up with this idea?
| qwertox wrote:
| So with this tiny $25 thingy my neighbor can track me in real-
| time after gluing it to my car? Nice.
|
| No, honestly, this is a bit concerning, isn't it?
| vokep wrote:
| Its apparently designed with that in mind. I'm not convinced
| though, give it 3 months before a few stories out there where
| someone's been stalked with one of these with the beeper
| disabled. I'd like to be wrong, guess we'll see.
| rstupek wrote:
| You didn't read the anti-stalking measures that are built in?
| qwertox wrote:
| > iOS devices can also detect an AirTag that isn't with its
| owner, and notify the user if an unknown AirTag is seen to be
| traveling with them from place to place over time.
|
| I don't have iOS devices.
|
| > And even if users don't have an iOS device, an AirTag
| separated from its owner for an extended period of time will
| play a sound when moved to draw attention to it.
|
| What is the definition of an extended period of time? One
| week? Two?
| tpmoney wrote:
| A search for "gps tracker" shows numerous small, inexpensive
| devices that can do the same thing. The cat is already out of
| the bag on the "crazy person wants to stalk me" devices.
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