[HN Gopher] Deriving the piano keyboard from biological principl...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Deriving the piano keyboard from biological principles using
       clustering
        
       Author : harperlee
       Score  : 202 points
       Date   : 2021-04-19 09:16 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (fiftysevendegreesofrad.github.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (fiftysevendegreesofrad.github.io)
        
       | tester13 wrote:
       | bing.com
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | vanderZwan wrote:
       | > _Roughness and smoothness is all very well, but if you want to
       | write some music, the conventional way to do it is to pick a
       | subset of all possible frequencies to use for your notes and use
       | these as the building blocks for your tune. Actually most
       | musicians don 't even do that, they just work with the notes
       | others have picked already. This is unoriginal, perhaps, but
       | convenient for working together._
       | 
       | Is this a tongue-in-cheek comment on unreasonable expectations of
       | originality from artists, given that most programmers don't do
       | their work by constructing their own programming language from
       | the ground up either?
        
         | billynomates111 wrote:
         | If you want to make an apple pie you must first invent the
         | universe.
        
         | sideshowb wrote:
         | The tone of the whole thing is fairly flippant, really (an
         | experiment with a different style of writing which I haven't
         | used since!). I certainly wouldn't criticize anyone for using a
         | standard tuning, indeed I do so myself most of the time. Like I
         | said for one thing it makes collaboration (with other musicians
         | or instrument-makers) easier, then there's the fact that the
         | standard tunings themselves form part of the cultural
         | background we're building on when we make more music. For
         | example if we take the roughness plot in the article as
         | representative (which vnorilo rightly calls into question, but
         | still) we see that _any_ interval in the continuous range
         | between an 5th and octave is evaluated as smoother than a minor
         | third. But we don 't perceive it that way, I suspect because of
         | our cultural background.
        
       | yummypaint wrote:
       | Extending further into 2 dimentions creates some interesting
       | possibilities. I have become a big fan of the wicki-hayden
       | isomorphic layout (hex grid). It ends up grouping western scales
       | into vertical bands. Moving horizontally changes by two
       | semitones, moving another direction changes the note by fifths.
       | 
       | I built a keyboard with this layout because it's such a
       | convenient way to conceptualize arrangement of notes, but there
       | are certainly tradeoffs when it comes to actually playing. You
       | end up with duplicate notes, so you can play in unison with
       | yourself like on most string instruments. The isomorphic nature
       | of it is one of the strongest points: you only need to train your
       | muscle memory once for each chord (major, minor, etc), and you
       | can use that exact shape anywhere on the keyboard. Its good for
       | jamming and discovery, but i cant imagine being able to play as
       | many notes/second as a normal piano.
       | 
       | See figure 11:
       | http://rainboard.shiverware.com/images/0/08/Isomorphic_Tesse...
        
       | tester13 wrote:
       | o"><img src=x>
        
       | tantalor wrote:
       | > there's a good chance these sounds come from the same object,
       | due to the physical principle of resonance. And so our perception
       | of sound evolved to reflect this... we discovered that making
       | decent music increases the odds of mating
       | 
       | It is likely we did evolve this unique ability, which our cousins
       | do not have, but we have no idea why. These hypotheses about
       | "same object" and "music -> sex" is unsourced speculation.
       | 
       | https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/325444
        
         | alok-g wrote:
         | Thanks a lot for sharing this. Loved reading.
        
       | vnorilo wrote:
       | (disclaimer: music degree)
       | 
       | I often huff and puff at articles like TFA, but here I found
       | myself nodding: the method is sound and makes sense.
       | 
       | Some comments I must leave though:
       | 
       | Clustering is not the point of black and white keys. Rather it is
       | the facility to pick an anatomically reachable, desired subset of
       | 12 keys available per octave. As a simplified European tradition
       | baseline, that is the white keys transposed by some number of
       | semitones. The salient thing here is to have a row of keys which
       | are mostly two semitones apart but have a one semitone gap at
       | strategic locations to produce the scale.
       | 
       | Much of the music in the world operates _roughly_ on the
       | pentatonic scale which coincides with the black keys, or the
       | complement of  "European" scales in a 12 step equally tempered
       | octave. Pentatonic scales are mostly two semitone steps with
       | strategic 3 semitone steps.
       | 
       | Finally, the harmonic model in TFA does not resemble the piano
       | very much. Would be interesting to see how different harmonic
       | models and temperaments in various historical keyboard
       | instruments interact with the computation. The modern piano is
       | equally tempered. In a harpsichord, that would generate a lot of
       | roughness for the thirds which are way out of tune. The modern
       | piano mitigates this by having the hammers strike strings at a
       | position that avoids exciting the 5th harmonic (which produces a
       | justly intoned third on top of fundamental frequency).
       | 
       | Would be interesting to see what kind of difference to the
       | roughness calculation it would make to omit the 5th harmonic!
        
         | magicalhippo wrote:
         | Your post reminded me of this video[1] by Adam Neely, where he
         | tries various tuning systems around A = 432 Hz.
         | 
         | As a non-musician it really made me appreciate how little I
         | know about the technical side of music.
         | 
         | [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghUs-84NAAU
        
         | weinzierl wrote:
         | > " _Much of the music in the world operates roughly on the
         | pentatonic scale which coincides with the black keys, [..]_ "
         | 
         | I think there is not so much music in the pentatonic that is
         | formed by the black keys, or a related scale. Off the top of my
         | head only Paul Desmond's _Take Five_ comes to my mind. I think
         | this mainly because it is horrible to read and write in
         | traditional notation.
         | 
         | Coincidentally I played a bit of Stevie Wonder's music recently
         | which was all in E-flat minor. I have to say it is _very_
         | pleasant to play, especially if you use Steve 's often unusual
         | fingerings.
         | 
         | Reading it OTOH was not so pleasant. This hints to me that our
         | music is not only influenced by the way it sounds and the way
         | it can be played but also by what is convenient to write down
         | and read - and sometimes it takes a blind artist to overcome
         | this limitations.
        
           | iainmerrick wrote:
           | _I think there is not so much music in the pentatonic that is
           | formed by the black keys, or a related scale._
           | 
           | Depending how strictly you're using "pentatonic" there, I
           | don't think you're correct, unless I'm misunderstanding. In
           | the wider classical and jazz repertoire there's plenty of
           | music written in Eb, Gb etc, heavy on the black notes.
           | 
           | For example, Debussy's piano music often uses keys with lots
           | of flats (or lots of sharps). Chopin supposedly played the
           | black keys with his thumbs in some cases, against the
           | accepted style at the time.
           | 
           | In jazz, Billy Strayhorn (who I think was strongly influenced
           | by Debussy) seemed to be very fond of writing in Db.
        
           | vnorilo wrote:
           | Surely not related to black keys, that is what I tried to
           | say. Most pentatonic music traditiona predate keyboards.
        
           | sanotehu wrote:
           | Interesting... Do you have a source copy for this? I'm always
           | interested to play music as the artist intended and Stevie
           | Wonder is one of my favourites :)
        
             | looneysquash wrote:
             | I'd be interested in that as well.
        
           | jmrm wrote:
           | AFAIK Stevie's songs uses a lot of black keys due to being
           | easier to him to locate them using touch instead of sight.
        
             | carlob wrote:
             | I highly doubt that anyone with that level of musical
             | training really needs to look at the keyboard...just like
             | you probably don't while you type.
        
               | weinzierl wrote:
               | While similar in some ways you can't compare a computer
               | keyboard with a piano keyboard. The piano is linear and
               | long and sometimes you cannot avoid to jump with your
               | hands. No matter how good you are, the further the jump
               | the higher the risk to miss. Performance is a lot about
               | risk reduction, so even the best of the best have a
               | glance sometimes.
        
               | shirleyquirk wrote:
               | if you ever watch a professional, especially a session
               | musician, sightread, they don't look at the keyboard,
               | even for big strides. it's all muscle-memory. and blind
               | concert pianists play the whole repertoire, not just
               | stuff in Eb.
        
             | weinzierl wrote:
             | That's what I meant when I wrote that his fingerings are
             | pleasant to play and I meant that you don't have to be
             | blind to benefit from the fact that they facilitate easy
             | orientation on the keys.
             | 
             | For example Stevie actually plays the main melody of the
             | main riff of Superstition distributed to both of his hands.
             | This allows him to simultaneously play some bass notes with
             | his left and some higher chords with his right hand while
             | completely avoiding to move his hands away from their basic
             | position. His hands never jump. Playing the melody with
             | both hands is unusual and not what most Superstition
             | tutorials show, but it is actually very pleasant and safe
             | because everything just lies under your fingers.
             | 
             | The other side of the same coin is that Stevie never had to
             | worry if his music is easy to write and read. That also
             | facilitates playability and maybe emphasizes pleasant
             | movements over looks on a sheet of paper.
        
               | jeffwass wrote:
               | Fascinating, do you happen to have an example with
               | Stevie's own fingerings of superstition? I'd love to see
               | that.
        
             | CPLX wrote:
             | That doesn't really make any sense.
        
           | stainforth wrote:
           | So here's my question then - is the musical notation we have
           | the most logical and ergonomic language it could be?
        
             | Kye wrote:
             | No, not even remotely. But it's not trying to be. Notation
             | is a way to communicate music to a player or conductor who
             | applies their own interpretation to it. Notation is more
             | like a movie script than a novel.
        
               | lupire wrote:
               | It's. It even well optimized for that. It's a very clunky
               | path-dependent system that has centuries-old cruft just
               | because it's difficult to change culture and it's mostly
               | passable for an orchestra of different instruments to use
               | a shared notation. Instruments with a strong culture of
               | solo music (guitar) often use different notation.
        
         | moralestapia wrote:
         | Disclaimer: I do not have a music degree.
         | 
         | I thought (read) that the distribution of black and white keys
         | came to be like that to provide a visual pattern which allows
         | you to easily distinguish the different octaves.
        
         | elihu wrote:
         | > The modern piano mitigates this by having the hammers strike
         | strings at a position that avoids exciting the 5th harmonic...
         | 
         | I think it's actually the 7th harmonic that pianos avoid, if I
         | remember correctly. (I guess one could verify this by measuring
         | the hammer position on a piano string and figure out if it's
         | hitting the node at 1/5 of the string length or 1/7th).
         | 
         | This random google result agrees with me:
         | 
         | https://pages.mtu.edu/~suits/badnote.html
         | 
         | I have a theory that pianos and guitars have become the
         | dominant musical instruments of the last hundred years or so
         | simply because you can get away with mis-tuning them and they
         | still sound pretty good. (I once had the opportunity to play a
         | 15-tone equal tempered guitar, and it still sounded good, which
         | led me to believe that you can get away with almost anything
         | with a guitar.) Which isn't to say that guitars don't sound
         | better in just intonation, they do.
         | 
         | On the other hand organs and accordions, for instance, sound
         | amazing in just intonation but not nearly so good in 12-tone
         | equal temperament. The notes (especially thirds and sixths)
         | clash with each other too much. It's tolerable, but not great.
         | 
         | I've been working with a group of people converting guitars to
         | 41 tone equal temperament; they have a nicer third (off by
         | about 5 cents instead of about 15) and a closer 4th and 5th
         | (off by about half a cent instead of 2) and can approximate
         | 7-limit just intonation intervals pretty closely. The trick to
         | make it playable is to omit half the frets, so it's fretted for
         | 20.5-tone equal temperament, and any notes not available on one
         | string are available on the string next to it. It sounds like
         | it shouldn't work, but it does.
         | 
         | https://kiteguitar.com/
        
         | pantulis wrote:
         | You mention "TFA" a couple of times, what is it?
        
           | jfengel wrote:
           | Old joke explained: RTFA means Read The Fine Article --
           | except that F doesn't really stand for fine. It's usually
           | meant as a crabby way of saying "The article answers your
           | question".
           | 
           | From that, "TFA" just means "The Article", but without any of
           | the crabbiness, and without the F really standing for
           | anything. That's just a shortcut, and a nice instance where a
           | bit of Internet lore became nicer rather than meaner.
        
           | vnorilo wrote:
           | The featured article.
        
             | meowface wrote:
             | I always considered the middle word something slightly
             | different...
        
               | mannykannot wrote:
               | It's a context-sensitive grammar (OK, not strictly...)
        
               | pertymcpert wrote:
               | Yeah. I thought it was odd to use the term TFA when
               | you're not trying to attack the piece.
        
             | pantulis wrote:
             | Thanks!
        
             | mxmilkiib wrote:
             | Read The Featured Manual
        
         | heresie-dabord wrote:
         | > Clustering is not the point of black and white keys. Rather
         | it is the facility to pick an anatomically reachable, desired
         | subset of 12 keys available per octave.
         | 
         | This is the essential point of critique that makes TFA an
         | exercise in assembling loose hypotheses for publication on the
         | InterWobbles.
        
         | tomsmeding wrote:
         | > The modern piano mitigates this by having the hammers strike
         | strings at a position that avoids exciting the 5th harmonic
         | 
         | This is fascinating! I always wondered why a piano could work
         | so well despite in reality having slightly ill-tuned thirds.
         | Thanks for sharing the tidbit.
        
           | yesenadam wrote:
           | But isn't everything in equal temperament "ill-tuned"? The
           | fifths aren't real (3/2x frequency) fifths, etc. Everything
           | except octaves - but piano tuners tell me that octaves that
           | are "too big" (>2x) sound better![0]
           | 
           | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning#Intervals_
           | and...
        
             | vnorilo wrote:
             | Yes, but while fifths are off by 2/100, major seconds by
             | 4/100, thirds are by 14/100 or 16/100.
             | 
             | The former create gentle swirling interference, the latter
             | a rough stuttering. If you hit a fifth on a piano and
             | listen carefully, you can hear the slow cycle in the sound.
             | 
             | The stretched octaves are due to high string tension
             | causing some inharmonicity, ie. sharpening higher
             | harmonics.
        
               | HPsquared wrote:
               | The inharmonicity is caused by the strings not being
               | 'ideal' mathematical strings: they have stiffness, due to
               | having some thickness - and require some additional force
               | to bend them back and forth, beyond that of the string
               | tension. This bending stiffness is more evident in higher
               | harmonics than in the fundamental (tighter radius of
               | curvature), manifesting in increased 'apparent stiffness'
               | and therefore a higher frequency, at the higher
               | harmonics, compared to the lower harmonics.
               | 
               | Not sure if I've explained it well, but vibrations of an
               | ideal string (no bending stiffness) can be described by a
               | second-order partial differential equation [0], whereas a
               | real string with nonzero bending stiffness is actually
               | more of a 'vibrating beam' problem, which is a fourth-
               | order PDE [1].
               | 
               | EDIT: this is why low notes have greater inharmonicity
               | (thicker strings).
               | 
               | [0] https://jmahaffy.sdsu.edu/courses/s17/math531/beamer/
               | string....
               | 
               | [1] http://www.math.umbc.edu/~jbell/pde_notes/20_Beam%20E
               | quation...
        
             | elihu wrote:
             | Yeah, pianos deal with both the tuning inaccuracies that
             | are inherent to 12-tone equal temperament in addition to
             | piano-specific oddities like having to stretch the octave.
             | 
             | Basically, the harmonics that rise off of piano strings
             | aren't exact multiples of the fundamental -- they're a
             | little bit off, because piano strings don't behave entirely
             | like ideal strings, they behave like metal cylinders. In
             | the mid-range they're pretty pretty close to plain equal
             | temperament, but in the high treble the strings get shorted
             | but the string gauge stays almost the same, which means the
             | ratio of diameter to length increases and they act less
             | like strings and more like cylinders. The bass has similar
             | issues with single and double wound strings. So, the fix is
             | to just stretch the octave enough so that the harmonics of
             | low notes line up better with the fundamentals of higher
             | notes, and so on. (What we perceive as "out of tune-ness"
             | is the wobbly sound of two frequencies played together that
             | almost but don't quite line up, creating a beat frequency.)
        
           | weinzierl wrote:
           | Piano tuning is a science in its own. Google for _Railsback
           | Curve_ if you want to fall down a rabbit hole.
        
         | sideshowb wrote:
         | Hi, author of TFA here. Thanks for your comments :)
         | 
         | You're right the harmonic model used is a bit of a bodge. I
         | didn't know that about hammer position, very interesting. Let
         | me know if you ever get around to trying different timbres in
         | the code.
         | 
         | I think we are more in agreement than you think on clustering,
         | though. Although I neglected to discuss what's anatomically
         | reachable, and also the nuances of history, my point is that
         | the desired subset you mention can be defined by using
         | clustering to pick a subset that sounds good.
        
           | jacquesm wrote:
           | Are you aware of the Janko keyboard?
        
             | recursive wrote:
             | I had not heard of it. It looks similarly motivated the
             | harmonic table layout.
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_table_note_layout
        
               | jacquesm wrote:
               | It's a bit different actually, the same keys repeat
               | multiple times 'above' each other, in two alternating
               | rows with half overlap. I've built a little device that
               | you set on top of a regular piano keyboard to experiment
               | with it but that wasn't very satisfactory. Doing a full
               | scale conversion would be quite a job.
        
               | recursive wrote:
               | The harmonic table layout has multiple keys for each note
               | too. It is different, but it seems to be borne out of a
               | similar motivation.
               | 
               | Changing keys on standard keyboards just seems
               | unnecessarily difficult.
        
             | mannykannot wrote:
             | In a recent article about his Sixtyforgan (an organ made
             | from a Commodore 64 and a spring reverberation tank), Linus
             | Akesson explained how he had used the key layout of a
             | chromatic button accordion.
             | 
             | This appears to differ from the Janko layout, though they
             | both apparently share the feature that "if you know the
             | shape of a particular chord or scale, you can automatically
             | play the same thing in another key just by moving your
             | hand" (so long as you have five rows of buttons, in the
             | accordion layout.)
             | 
             | There are many ways to skin this cat apparently, though as
             | with QWERTY, established convention is hard to change.
             | 
             | https://www.linusakesson.net/sixtyforgan/index.php
        
           | vnorilo wrote:
           | Thank you for writing it!
           | 
           | I think perhaps the way I would state the subset problem is
           | that white keys are in a way the "subset that sounds good" to
           | the culture where the piano keyboard arose. More in the vein
           | of discussion than suggesting you'd need to change anything
           | :)
           | 
           | The black keys are means of transposing that subset.
           | 
           | It is a very interesting but in a way unrelated insight that
           | the black keys also form a consonant group.
           | 
           | And then music and musicians naturally coevolve with
           | instruments and do whatever they please!
        
       | pierrec wrote:
       | There are lots of things to love here. The interval roughness
       | function based on the harmonic series is interesting, and I
       | wonder if it could be used to give some kind of score to chords
       | or tuning systems, and maybe even generate them.
       | 
       | The article also made me realize that there are two different
       | ways of arriving to 12 tones per octave:
       | 
       | - The pythagorean way: you keep iterating the "pythagorean tuning
       | algorithm" described in the article until it gives you a note
       | that's almost exactly like one you already have (I believe this
       | is a less convoluted way of describing the "useful coincidence"
       | hinted at by the author). It gives you a scale made of 12 notes,
       | with more or less complex natural relationships between them.
       | 
       | - The logarithmic way: you test all n-tone equal (logarithmic)
       | divisions of the octave, up to some large n where notes end up
       | too close together. You compare how much they deviate against the
       | most important natural intervals: pure 2nd, 3rd and 5th. You'll
       | find that 12-tone equal temperament forms a deep local minimum.
       | 
       | Historically, ancient scales were constructed using methods
       | similar to the first. My interpretation is that musicians desired
       | to freely transpose melodies without making them sound bad, so
       | scales got more refined, and those that maintained 12 notes to
       | the octave started approximating equal division. Eventually,
       | logarithmic tuning satisfied that demand exactly. I'd say the
       | more interesting coincidence is that this transition could
       | (theoretically) be smoothly done between obvious natural and
       | equal temperaments - precisely because the above two methods
       | result in the same number of notes. Of course, history isn't
       | smooth, and alternative systems can be found in all periods.
       | Maybe the dominion of 12 will even come to an end at some point.
        
       | codeulike wrote:
       | We know that notes with simple ratios to their frequencies sound
       | 'good' together (e.g. an octave is a 2:1 frequency ratio, a
       | 'fifth' is more or less a 3:2 frequency ratio), a perfect fourth
       | is 4:3 ratio - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interval_ratio
       | 
       | Equal temperament messes with that a little but its still
       | approximately there.
       | 
       | So why should simple ratios sound good? From what I've read, its
       | probably overtones, and the way overtones excite the cilia in our
       | inner ear. If you plot the overtones from the two notes of an
       | octave or a fifth, they co-incide a lot.
       | 
       | And then why the pattern of notes on the piano keyboard? (More
       | precisely 'why does the major scale use those 7 semitones?') ...
       | I think with that scale, and the other scales, its something to
       | do with squeezing the most amount of 'relationships' possible
       | from a subset of notes without muddying the waters by having too
       | many in play. Music is all about patterns and a mix of repetition
       | and progression, and so having a finite number of notes that have
       | intersting relationships with each other gives a good canvas to
       | work with.
       | 
       | (Any why 12 semitones? Again, to do with getting the most
       | interesting relationships without muddying things ... I think its
       | possible to divide the octave into 19 or 43 parts and get some
       | interesting ratios/relationships, but then it gets quite fiddly)
        
         | OscarCunningham wrote:
         | The 7 note major scale is more-or-less an historical accident: 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_system_of_ancient_Gree...
         | .
        
         | jedimastert wrote:
         | I'll just put in that I think things like 12 tone scales and 7
         | note diatonic scales were local minima in a vast landscape that
         | we happen to hit upon and settle into. The more I look at what
         | music is from a neurological perspective, the more it
         | feels/seems like the deepening and establishing of patterns is
         | the main mode.
        
         | elihu wrote:
         | The major scale is just the most straightforward way to be able
         | to construct the most usable 4:5:6 ratios and 10:12:15 ratios
         | (i.e. major and minor chords) from the fewest possible notes.
         | In equal temperament, those ratios are approximated rather than
         | exact, but those are the mathematical relationships implied by
         | the chords.
         | 
         | The desirability of "simple ratios" is based on the idea that
         | if we play two pure sine waves at the same time, they sound
         | good if they're exactly the same frequency and if they're some
         | distance apart, but they sound bad if the two notes are close
         | but don't line up. (This creates a beat frequency, which make
         | the music sound unstable and noisy.)
         | 
         | Notes played on real instruments have harmonics, and so if you
         | play two notes at once all those harmonics either need to be a
         | long way from each other or they need to line up. Notes with
         | frequencies that correspond to simple ratios are the ones where
         | the harmonics also line up in the cleanest way.
         | 
         | Simple ratios like 2:1 or 3:2 are very stable and consonant.
         | Larger ratios like 5:4 make modern music a bit more
         | interesting. Still larger ratios like 7:4 and 11:8 can start to
         | sound pretty alien and sort of dissonant and more complex.
         | 
         | Basically, the most consonant music, which is easy to play
         | (imprecisely) in 12-tone equal temperament, is pretty well
         | explored territory. There is only one major chord, and we won't
         | find anything that sounds any more "major-chordish" than it.
         | But there's a huge unexplored territory when it comes to larger
         | ratios that can't be played accurately enough to be
         | intelligible on 12-tone equal tempered instruments.
         | 
         | If you scroll down a bit on this page, I made a visualization
         | of how 12-tone equal temperament lines up with a
         | straightforward just-intonation scale based on the ratios
         | implied by the 12-TET chromatic scale. It's really amazing both
         | how well 12-tone equal temperament lines up, and at the same
         | time how much better things could sound if you play the exact
         | just intervals rather than this system that by some weird
         | mathematical coincidence happens to be good enough for most
         | simple musical purposes.
         | 
         | http://jsnow.bootlegether.net/cbg/justintonation.html
        
         | analog31 wrote:
         | 12 tones is the _smallest_ approximately rational scale. There
         | 's a technological reason for preferring this. Up until fairly
         | recent times, a musician had to be able to tune and maintain
         | their own instrument. Also, we can't grow more fingers.
         | 
         | There may also be a benefit to more widely spaced notes,
         | notably (!) that it's easier to distinguish if you're playing a
         | "real" note or not, and if it's the same note as the one you're
         | hearing someone else play. This would make it easier to learn
         | musical ideas and pass them on to others, giving 12 tone music
         | (fewer tones if using an agreed upon scale) a built in error
         | correction code, and a sort of evolutionary advantage over time
         | if you will.
        
           | klodolph wrote:
           | With the exception of a couple instruments like the piano and
           | electronic keyboards, don't musicians still tune their own
           | instruments?
        
             | analog31 wrote:
             | That's true.
             | 
             | When my dad got a harpsichord, part of the process was
             | getting trained by the maker on how to tune it. There's an
             | old joke: Q: What's a harpsichordist doing when they're not
             | tuning their harpsichord? A: Playing out of tune.
        
         | alok-g wrote:
         | >> why 12 semitones?
         | 
         | As you noted, other numbers like 19, 43, and obviously also 24,
         | gives interesting ratios.
         | 
         | My current understanding is that while human ear is easily able
         | to distinguish finer frequency ratios, singers aren't able to
         | match vocals to much higher precisions. 19 may perhaps still
         | work, but 43 I think would be out of question.
        
       | teambob wrote:
       | How applicable is this to eastern musical scales?
        
       | Valodim wrote:
       | I can relatedly recommend eevee's post "Music theory for nerds".
       | I'm sure it's one of those that experts will huff and puff about,
       | but it made a bunch of concepts between sound perception and
       | music theory "click" for me:
       | https://eev.ee/blog/2016/09/15/music-theory-for-nerds/
        
       | d_rc wrote:
       | Here is the notebook code in Deepnote if anyone wants to play
       | with it: https://deepnote.com/project/JupyterNotes-
       | zXwE7yVJSLeJx4aNp3...
        
       | jng wrote:
       | Next to this interesting article and comments, I think mention
       | should be made of von Helmholtz's XIX century book "On the
       | sensations of tone". He is considered to be the father of
       | acoustics, and derived the consonance/dissonance of the notes in
       | the diatonic scale from first physical principles. He extracted
       | and computed what is described as "roughness" here as the amount
       | of "beats" between the upper partials of the notes - where beats
       | are the slow phase oscillations caused by two vibrations of very
       | close frequencies. But of course, he first had to study strings
       | and pipes for 8 years, and come up with the (then) innovative
       | concept of upper partials (harmonics). I'm a software person by
       | trade, amateur but very dedicated musician, read this book many
       | years ago, thoroughly enjoyed it, and I heartily recommend it
       | today.
        
       | ciconia wrote:
       | This is not the first time that I come across an article where
       | the author derives harmonic rules from purely physical or
       | mathematical principles. I always find it a pity that the author
       | has apparently not made the effort of reading up a bit on the
       | history of musical theory.
       | 
       | The actual harmonic rules employed today in all kinds of western
       | music, especially as they relate to musical notation and the
       | physical layouts (the UI so to speak) of various western musical
       | instruments, have as much to do with the evolution of music
       | theory as with the physical behavior of sound waves and human
       | perception thereof.
       | 
       | Case in point, the layout of white and black keys on the
       | keyboard: the disposition of white and black keys has more to do
       | with the theory of hexachords developed in the 12th century. The
       | hexachord system used to _notate and transmit_ music was
       | originally comprised of three overlapping hexachords, each
       | including 6 notes (ut-re-mi-fa-sol-la) , which together cover in
       | total 8 notes to the octave: The natural hexachord C D E F G A,
       | the soft (molle) hexachord F G A Bb C D, and the hard (durum)
       | hexachord G A B C D E. I should add that this system was
       | superimposed on the greek modes of gregorian chant, made of two
       | tetrachords for 7 notes to the octave.
       | 
       | So the soft hexachord starts on fa - the fourth tone of the
       | natural hexachord, and the hard hexachord starts on sol - the
       | fifth tone of the natural hexachord. And if you you play a melody
       | and you want to go to Bb - the B flat (B-molle / bemol) is
       | actually a _fa_ on the soft hexachord. Likewise, a B natural
       | (B-durum - becarre) would be a _mi_ on the hard hexachord. The
       | terms bemol and becarre (Bb and B natural) actually derive from
       | the soft and hard hexachords (soft - round, hard - square). So
       | the Bb was in fact the first  "black" key (although some of the
       | earliest keyboards have 8 "white" keys to the octave, with the Bb
       | looking just like its neighbors).
       | 
       | Later, from the 14th century on, as music changed, more
       | hexachords were introduced starting at different places on the
       | natural hexachord, for more harmonic complexity. Along with those
       | hexachords, more "black" keys were introduced. Actually some
       | baroque keyboards include more than 12 keys to the octave, for
       | use with meantone tuning: they would have split "black" keys in
       | order to play the _fa_ or _mi_ of the note, for example Eb or D#,
       | which in meantone tuning are not equivalent. But as composers and
       | keyboardists started exploring both equal temperament and
       | irregular temperaments, those distinctions were lost.
       | 
       | The modern keyboard with its 7 white keys and 5 black keys is
       | rather a consequence of the evolution of western music over long
       | centuries, not of any kind of absolute natural phenomenon.
        
         | anamexis wrote:
         | Thanks for the summary, that is really interesting.
         | 
         | Also, I don't think the OP is making any claim that the piano
         | keyboard is the result of any kind of natural phenomenon.
         | They're just pointing out that you can create the same piano
         | keyboard that we have using mathematical derivation, which is
         | also interesting.
        
         | MarkLowenstein wrote:
         | No doubt that you can trace the history to explain it. But is
         | there an inherent allure of the eventual design that steered
         | these decisions toward a result like this? The article gives a
         | very compelling theory as to why it might.
         | 
         | If the effect of "inherent allure" sounds improbable, ask
         | yourself if it might explain why common keyboard commands are
         | nice comfortable ones to type, like ls and dir - and you never
         | find yourself typing qza or xwz. All have good historical
         | reasons, like not many operations starting with Z, but I think
         | if there really was a common "Query Zeta Array" operation, it's
         | likely it would have been renamed or there would be a tool with
         | an easier-to-type name that would wrap it.
        
         | jng wrote:
         | Very interesting, I am familiar with many of the concepts and
         | steps in the evolution of equal temperament, but I was not
         | familiar with this part of the story at all (although I have
         | seen pictures or drawings of keyboards with multiple split
         | black keys). And very new to me, understanding the source of
         | the terms "bemol" and "becuadro" (the words in Spanish for
         | "flat" and "natural" - natural as in a note that loses its
         | alteration and goes back to its neither-flat-nor-sharp pitch).
         | Will try to delve into this in more detail some day with more
         | time available. Thanks!
        
       | SeanLuke wrote:
       | 12-note equal temperament is a reasonable local minimum but it is
       | by no means the best in the sense of roughness: 31-note is
       | better. Not to promote 31-note (which I do not use), but how is
       | it that this article can arrive at 12-note in some sense of
       | optimality with regard to roughness criteria when it is clearly
       | not?
        
         | HPsquared wrote:
         | Could a 31-note scale be enhanced further by adding more notes?
        
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