[HN Gopher] Kinematic Self-Replicating Machines (2004)
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Kinematic Self-Replicating Machines (2004)
Author : ramboldio
Score : 58 points
Date : 2021-04-17 14:47 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.molecularassembler.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.molecularassembler.com)
| smlckz wrote:
| Have we humans been able to make artificial physical self-
| replicating machines? Is it feasible to make such machines?
| ansible wrote:
| Well, there are degrees of "artificial".
|
| Years ago, we spliced an insulin producing gene into a
| bacteria's DNA:
|
| https://www.nlm.nih.gov/exhibition/fromdnatobeer/exhibition-...
|
| This is taking a naturally occurring bacteria, and modifying it
| slightly. We are using the bacteria's existing protein
| production infrastructure to produce a peptide hormone.
|
| Check out how a ribosome works:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=morl5e-jBNk
|
| It is, in some sense, a programmable robot arm that assembles
| structures from parts.
|
| As we have gotten better at understanding how these mechanisms
| work, we can tweak things further. We can imagine many
| directions for this to go in. Not just producing proteins with
| existing amino acids, but having the bacteria produce new ones
| with interesting properties.
|
| We could eventually be able to produce a wide array of
| chemicals, and not just organic compounds. Though the range of
| things that can be produced is still limited.
|
| The main thrust of molecular nanotechnology is to leave behind
| the protein synthesis that biological life uses, and instead be
| able to produce arbitrary structures from arbitrary atoms.
|
| This is a difficult and ambitious goal, but one that is
| imminently achievable.
| mLuby wrote:
| No, it's never been done.* While factories are built all the
| time, they have never been built entirely from their own
| products _and_ without human labor as an essential ingredient
| (a "closed" manufacturing process).
|
| There's an economic reason for this: the _constraints_ that
| make a factory "self-replicating" mostly make things more
| difficult/expensive; they're only beneficial when operating in
| a human-hostile area disconnected from existing supply chains,
| so it's always been better to use open-loop factories + human
| labor to make products quicker, cheaper, and of higher quality
| than a self-replicator would. Space industrialization is where
| self-replicators will be exceptionally useful.
|
| These are the key functions of a truly closed-loop self-
| replicating factory:
|
| 1. collect energy
|
| 2. use energy to collect matter.
|
| 3. use energy and matter to create parts.
|
| 4. use energy to assemble parts.
|
| For example, consider a water-powered saw mill, made of wood
| with some metal "vitamins":
|
| 1. Wooden water wheels collect energy from flowing rivers.
|
| 2. Humans use wood/metal saws to cut trees, and wooden
| rollers/sleds and transport them to the mill.
|
| 3. The mill's saws, drills, and lathes turn the tree trunks
| into useful wooden parts.
|
| 4. Humans move wood parts from station to station in the mill
| and can assemble another mill from the boards, dowels, and a
| few metal saw blade/drill bit "vitamins."
|
| Could you replace the humans with logging robots, and use robot
| arms to move things inside the mill? Sure, but humans are so
| much better suited for these tasks, and now your humble saw
| mill has to be able to create, power, and control these robots
| in order to be closed-loop.
|
| *Yes clever HN, you can get all pedantic about biological self-
| replicators, self-assemblers, and nano-bots, but you're just
| muddying the waters. We haven't ever managed a von Neumann-
| style "clanking automaton" self-replicator.
|
| P.S. don't worry about rampancy--there are physical limits that
| make sci-fi's Grey Goo floods impossible.
| jpm_sd wrote:
| This was published in 2004 and was highly speculative at the
| time. We are still a long, long way from the Diamond Age
| fantasy of self assembling nanotech.
|
| Recent work in this area seems to mostly involve modding 3D
| printers to try and integrate conductive materials (basic
| circuits) into plastic structures.
|
| Example:
|
| https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/botfactory-to-develop-u-...
| science4sail wrote:
| What do you define as an "artificial physical self-replicating
| machine"?
|
| A genetically engineered bacterium is a self-replicating
| machine created via artificial means that exists to effect some
| purpose in the physical world.
| smlckz wrote:
| - ''Artificial'': not naturally occuring, also not a
| "clone"/"fork" of something natural.
|
| - ''Physical'': not software simulation, virtual; "exist" in
| the same world we live in.
|
| If my original terminology is insufficient or ambiguous,
| please suggest better terms.
| science4sail wrote:
| For that matter, the Earth has _already_ had a grey goo
| ecological disaster:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Oxidation_Event
| choeger wrote:
| I have three of them at home. They're easy to make but
| relatively high maintenance. Because of this, I try to make
| sure that they learn self-maintenance before self-replication.
| Let's see how that plays out.
| umvi wrote:
| I would argue that "life" isn't "artificial" i.e. manmade
| emteycz wrote:
| Agreed on humans, though I wonder where is the line between
| artificial and natural life? Large portion of genome
| modified? Synthetic cells? Synthetic cells without any
| natural cellular components?
| phreeza wrote:
| I guess it depends on your definition. I can think of many
| examples that are self replicating in some sense, but probably
| not in the same way as a bacterium.
|
| A 19th century machine shop is probably capable of self-
| replicating, with metal as an input and a human 'catalyst'.
|
| A crystal is self replicating in a way.
|
| A computer virus and a meme.
| plutonorm wrote:
| Has anyone tried evolving small shaped block to self assemble
| when you shake them together? I'm thinking of SLA 3D printing the
| shapes in various materials to create a functional component by
| simply shaking everything together.
|
| Has this been thought about?
| phreeza wrote:
| I would argue that a self-replicating machine could be a slight
| modification of this idea. Print some blocks and put them in a
| container and shake them. Then come up with some structure,
| made up of these blocks, that will cause a copy of itself to
| emerge when shaking, that would have never or extremely rarely
| occurred if the parent structure had not been present.
| sanity31415 wrote:
| > Has this been thought about?
|
| I'm not aware of artificial examples but this is essentially
| how biology works at the protein level - so it does work at
| least at the molecular scale.
|
| In principle it should also work at larger scales although it
| would probably be _much_ slower, molecules jiggle very quickly.
|
| Programmable magnets (aka "polymagnets") may be applicable to
| doing it at a larger scale.
| haffi112 wrote:
| Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-8MP7g8XOE
| germinalphrase wrote:
| https://rosieresearch.com/self-assembling-bricks/
| darepublic wrote:
| Step 1, get the Boston dynamic robots working on the assembly
| lines of their own factories
| robbrown451 wrote:
| This is something that explores current things (3d printers, CNC
| plywood cutters, etc) that could gradually play larger and larger
| roles in the fabrication of identical -- or better yet, identical
| with improvements -- copies of themselves.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4tYIX_QJ2Q
|
| This will most certainly happen gradually, and will probably
| involve a whole cluster of machines. For instance, a robot arm, a
| 3d printer, and a bunch of jigs and other devices, which together
| can make parts of themselves or play a role in assembly.
| JoeDaDude wrote:
| There must be some demand for this book. You can read it online
| for free or buy a used copy on Amazon for >$300!!
| scop wrote:
| Here's an honest question that I've pondered occasionally,
| without really spending the time to research an answer. Not sure
| if this is biology, chemistry, etc, but would appreciate any
| insights HN readers may have:
|
| How did replication develop in nature? Granted some cells popped
| into existence as some point, do we have any insights into
| when/how cell replication became a thing?
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| I'd look into autocatalytic sets. From an origin-of-life
| perspective it's a compelling idea to me.
| hallgrim wrote:
| Exactly! One aspect to remember is that once you have a self
| --replicating mechanism, by the nature of it, the replicating
| parts are becoming more widespread. In other words, small
| effects with larg, self--reinforcing consequences.
| robbrown451 wrote:
| Replication has many shades of gray.
|
| Does a fire self-replicate? How about a prion?
|
| Somewhere in between would be self-catalyzing chemical
| reactions. It's not that hard to imagine how such things could
| eventually evolve into what we call "life", with no clear line
| between non-living and living.
| phreeza wrote:
| Reading through this book a bit I found a mention of penrose
| block replicators, and through that found this video from the
| early 60s. Not really a replicator in an real sense, but still a
| neat demonstration: https://youtu.be/hQ6T_TY3JA4
| [deleted]
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