[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?
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Ask HN: How can a unhireable person get a job?
I've been trying to get a job for over a year now. I've interviewed
at Google, Facebook, Dell, NSA, CIA, DoE (E=Energy), Airbnb,
Palantir. Too many to list. I've applied to companies from the
whoishiring thread every monthly. workatastartup etc. Always ending
with ghosting, or a impasive rejection letter. I tried improving my
interview skills. Reading Meyers, Knuth etc. books. Reading advice
on Reddit etc. But I still always get rejected. I worked at EA (QA
on Apex Legends), and IBM (dev) at 18. Quit due to lowpay/no
insurance. Got referrals etc. dropped out my freshmen year at a top
40 college. Was on the cyber security team etc. too expensive so I
had to dropout. Got a low level customer support role at Amazon.
But I only made $15 with no health insurance. Found some flaws
within the anti-fraud system at Amazon, and wrote a detailed e-mail
to the VP in charge of the anti-fraud system. It was fixed by 1am.
Also was concerned about support reps being able to access any
customer's data simply by pressing 'bypass' on the security
question promt page. I couldn't transfer internally until a year
later as well. Would ping your manager each time you apply as well.
Have to delete your emails constantly due to only having 1gb email
space. Assessment was similar to the one I took for CIA. Cognitive
based assessment. I even got ghosted after a interview for a
manual labor job at Home Depot. I tried cold contacting executives
at a few companies. Got meeting with SVP at Dell, CISO etc. was
fruitless though. Spoofed number to bypass contact whitelist etc.
I welcome any and all advice that any of y'all could offer. Even if
it's brutally candid. I need a job with decent health/dental
insurance. Medicaid is useless. I might be homeless soon. I'm
scared, and I don't know what to do. I'm afraid that I'll end up
like Bill Landreth. e: dude@member.fsf.org will reply with a
different email address.
Author : snakedoctor
Score : 20 points
Date : 2021-04-15 19:23 UTC (3 hours ago)
| codegeek wrote:
| Need more details to give you a more accurate feedback. How long
| you have been working/in the industry in general ? It seems like
| you have done a few things over the years but don't really seem
| to have stuck to something that made you a specialist or someone
| worth hiring. Being brutal here but making assumptions. Do you
| quit a lot ? Do you have any criminal records that you are not
| aware of ? Are you too opinionated or argumentative in interviews
| even before understanding more about the team/product/company etc
| ? Are you that person who "knows everything" ? Lot of factors
| could be causing you to lose out.
| snakedoctor wrote:
| I've quit a lot. I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2
| months. I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm
| not getting appropriate compensation. Though I certainly agree
| that I need to stick with a job. I think ageism, and other
| biases are in place though. More years of experience I get the
| less disdained I will be I think.
|
| I don't think I'm a know it all. I'm only in my early 20s. I
| definitely have a lot to learn, and I'm receptive to new stuff.
| tcbasche wrote:
| > I think ageism, and other biases are in place though. > I'm
| only in my early 20s
|
| Do you mean ... ageism against young people? I think from
| what it sounds like your expectation of compensation might be
| a little inflated based on your experience. Straight out of
| university I took a junior grad job that paid peanuts, but
| stuck with it for about 2 years and that was a solid basis to
| move somewhere that was a much better work environment and
| paid better.
|
| I think as another poster may have said, you probably just
| need to stick it out with something for a couple of years to
| get that solid basis. As you say, if you're in your early
| twenties you have plenty of time and it's just the start of
| your career!
| geofft wrote:
| Almost no company has the internal processes to adjust
| someone's compensation within two months. If you don't feel
| like your compensation at signing is appropriate, you need to
| figure it out then. Otherwise, your best shot is when the
| company's standard process is - end of year reviews, after
| one year at the job, whatever.
|
| Also, at least in tech, almost no company will have made any
| serious attempt to evaluate your contributions after two
| months. It's assumed you're still figuring things out (both
| technical and social/political) and not making meaningful
| contributions until well past that point, and the nature of
| things you'll do even two years into a job are qualitatively
| different from those you're doing two months in (even if you
| are finding things that are valuable to do). So they don't
| have the _data_ to re-evaluate you two months in, even if
| they had the process.
|
| I think that's something you need to figure out. What
| happened with the SVP/CISO phone calls that you mentioned in
| your post? What did you tell these people, whose job _isn 't_
| recruiting candidates (there's a whole different department
| for that), to convince them to bypass the usual process and
| stick their own necks out and risk their own position for
| you? What did they say in return?
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| This is 100% your problem. If I worked someplace for two
| months I wouldn't even put it on my resume. On the flip side
| of that if I got a resume with only a bunch of 2 month jobs
| on it I wouldn't likely interview you.
|
| As other comments have mentioned you have to stick to
| something for a while. You didn't even finish school so you
| cant even say "At least I stuck with my degree". The way you
| read to me is that you will jump ship the moment you aren't
| liking something.
|
| > I contribute a lot and then quit after I feel like I'm not
| getting appropriate compensation
|
| Two things about this:
|
| If you don't feel the compensation is appropriate you
| shouldn't take the job in the first place. If you've been
| somewhere for a while and been a high contributor then ask
| for a raise. Two months isn't nearly long enough to make that
| assessment.
|
| Also you say you contribute "a lot" but I'm betting that it's
| not as much as you think. It probably only feels like a lot
| because you haven't ever stuck around anywhere long enough to
| see what "a lot" looks like. Hint: It's a marathon, not a
| sprint.
| brundolf wrote:
| Seconding this. The advice I've always heard is that if you
| quit a job in under a year, it's a red flag. Generally you
| get one freebie where people will understand if you had to
| quit because of a bad fit or a toxic situation or whatever
| - though you'll probably have to talk about that in your
| interview - but if there's a pattern of it happening over
| time, that's a huge red flag.
|
| If I were you I'd try and get one solid year of a job on my
| resume, to start with. You said you're worried about
| becoming homeless anyway- why would you quit a $15/hour job
| if you don't have anything else lined up? Unless it's just
| a really toxic/destructive situation, that seems like a
| mistake.
|
| Best of luck.
| shytey wrote:
| I do some hiring for my company, and if I saw a resume with
| numerous <2 month positions it would be a red flag. Try
| lowering your expectations, find any position and stick with
| it. You can continue to apply for better roles while you have
| that job. Worst case you end up there for 6 + months which
| looks much better on a resume. Best of luck!
| zumu wrote:
| > I haven't lasted anywhere longer than 2 months
|
| You need to work somewhere, literally anywhere, for at least
| a year.
|
| Hiring and on boarding is expensive, such that virtually no
| software companies are getting any ROI for someone who is
| there for two months or less. I get you may have had impact
| early on at these places, but I guarantee they all still lost
| money on you.
|
| tldr; on paper you're a losing bet, build a history of being
| a winning bet and more companies will come around.
| macksd wrote:
| I definitely agree this is a problem for you. I think I
| crossed the $15 mark in 2010 (so recent inflation is a factor
| here, but not IMO enough to justify your expectations), but
| that was after having a part-time job in high school for 2
| years, a full-time job after high school for a year, and
| after having been at my developer job at my university for
| 2.5 years and being a team lead who had consistently been
| making strong contributions and getting good feedback. I then
| took a paycut to work elsewhere and picked up a second job to
| get better experience, and only after finishing my degree and
| with all those years of experience did I get a job with
| health insurance and substantially higher pay.
|
| I don't mean to sound like the old man stereotype of "in my
| day", but no, I'm not seeing why you think you can expect
| significantly more recognition than that after 2 months.
| elmerfud wrote:
| You leave out a lot about yourself that would make you
| unhireable. From what you've written it sounds like you could
| form a decent resume for an entry level position. The biggest red
| flag I see is that it doesn't sound like you completed anything
| and you don't have any follow through / sticktuitiveness.
|
| Life happens and reasons happen but you didn't complete college,
| you complain about your entry level position at amazon but I see
| nothing that warrants a greater position than that. Obviously
| this may not be everything about you so it's difficult to judge.
|
| I have no degree, but worked hard, stuck to jobs for 2-3 years
| before moving and developed a track record that hiring managers
| like to see. That means working for $15/hr in a position that you
| feel is beneath you. The thing that position provides you
| valuable experience and showing you can stick with things.
| Companies that hire you put forth a significant investment that
| takes roughly a year to pay off. Employees don't always realize
| that. If you look like you won't stick around they won't hire
| you.
|
| One of the most important thing, especially as a junior is to be
| likable and present your suggestions in a likable way. Also it's
| key to know when no one wants to hear your suggestions. Sometimes
| your perspective may be a new thing that was never thought of or
| it could be one sided, the business knows it and had accepted the
| risk but it's not within your knowledge scope to know that.
|
| I do technical interviews for the company I work for. If you're
| not likable to me, you're probably not getting hired. If I get
| the impression that every interaction will be a dick measuring
| contest because you come off as a smarty pants, I'm not recommend
| hiring. Someone who's knowledgeable and humble is going to get my
| recommendation. If you're good, and know how to communicate well
| you'll naturally rise to lead a team because they'll look to you
| for answers or ideas and everyone will notice.
|
| It really sounds like you need to "pay your dues" by showing that
| you can stick to something. That's either complete college and
| get a degree or work entry level for 2 years and move up or out
| to the next position.
| snakedoctor wrote:
| Yeah, I think hiring managers think that I'm a quitter. I
| definitely think that I was whining too much about the Amazon
| role. Beggers can't be choosers. However, the no health
| insurance thing rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like it was a
| dead end job. I wish that I would've stayed with it though. I
| probably would've been promoted by now. I need to stay with a
| job and rack up some years of experience for sure.
|
| Like I mentioned in other comments. I think HM's see me as a
| quitter. Also other baises like ageism etc. I think are apart
| of the issue. I felt like that I should've got promoted after
| reporting those issues, especially since I found them within my
| frist two weeks. I think that I come off as demure. I take a
| long time to answer sometimes. Due to my sutter, and southern
| drawl etc. But I try to listen, and pay attention to detail.
| Learn when to shut up, and when input/insight is wanted etc.
|
| Sometimes when I do receive rejection feedback it's mostly
| "overqualifed", "not a good fit", and "not enough experience".
| I received a rejection from state farm today stating that I'm
| not a good fit. Even though I meet the qualifcations.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > I felt like that I should've got promoted after reporting
| those issues, especially since I found them within my frist
| two weeks
|
| You won't ever get a promotion within two weeks, especially
| not over a single instance of good work. Do it a hundred more
| times, then think about a promotion.
|
| I think you seriously need to re-evaluate your expectations
| about this stuff.
| giantg2 wrote:
| Maybe check your criminal record. My wife was getting denied from
| every application. She later found out there was an incorrect
| conviction on her record and had to get it expunged.
|
| Also, you seem to be listing big name tech companies and
| startups. Have you tried looking at non-tech companies? Sometimes
| the medium to small non-tech companies are more forgiving about
| not having a degree.
|
| I'm not sure where you are located, but maybe look at jobs in
| other regions. Sometimes you can take a lower paying job in a
| cheaper region (with less competition) and do well.
| snakedoctor wrote:
| I'm not sure how to check my criminal record. Last background
| check by Amazon was clear. I've never even got ticked for jay
| walking. I tried googling my name and nothing came up. Pretty
| sure I have to pay for a company like ADP to do a background
| check on me. I think background checks usually happend post
| offer.
|
| I've tried applying to some smaller companies who might be
| willing to take a risk on me. Haven't had any better luck with
| those. I live in the south, there aren't a lot of tech
| companies local to me. Just oil/gas companies.
| objectivetruth wrote:
| I gave you a bunch of advice earlier but then I saw this:
| "I'm not sure how to check my criminal record. "
|
| Don't be the type of person who says that. Be the type of
| person who says "I didn't know how to do that so I spent 30
| seconds Googling it and now I do."
| objectivetruth wrote:
| 1) You mentioned "ageism" so I assumed you were toward the older
| end of the typical range, but then you said you're in your early
| 20s? Yeah, no offense but you're basically a kid with no
| portfolio and no proven job history who dropped out of college,
| so you're probably not going to find a job that offers
| health/dental. And that's not "ageism" -- lots of the places you
| mentioned hire people in their late teens or early 20s -- that's
| just your inexperience.
|
| 2) Don't talk about how you spotted some system deficiency three
| levels above you and reported it. That's just going to creep
| people out. And that is NOT the sort of thing that makes a
| manager think you're Good Will Hunting and say "What's that
| genius doing in the call center cubicles? Get him an office and
| insurance right away!" Instead they are 100x more likely to say
| "Yes, drone, we're all well aware of that issue, get back on the
| phones."
|
| 3) You're cold-contacting SVPs at Dell? Spoofing contact
| whitelists to get through their phone systems? Yeah, this isn't
| "War Games," so you're about 1000x more likely to anger somebody
| than you are to impress them with your skillz. There are the
| "normal" channels of getting a job (the HR application route) and
| the "usual" channels (having a friend at the company get you
| hired)... but anything else (walking into an SVP's suite) is
| really, really unlikely to help.
|
| I mean this well -- twenty years ago, I was a college freshman
| dropout with no portfolio, no connections, and a rural drawl --
| so you CAN succeed. But I had some rough years and I had to put
| in my dues as an entry-level help desk grunt before rising up as
| a sysadmin.
|
| * Get some sort of stable job and don't quit it until a year has
| gone by AND you have a signed offer letter in hand for a provably
| better job.
|
| * Don't give up on Medicaid! In most states and most scenarios,
| you're MUCH more likely to get decent _subsidized_ ACA healthcare
| than you are to find a job that gives you insurance within 90
| days, let alone 30 days. But you gotta do the research and the
| legwork.
| brundolf wrote:
| Have you tried talking with a recruiting agency? I notice you've
| mostly applied at household-name companies, many of which are
| very competitive. The majority of the tech jobs out there are not
| at companies you've ever heard of. Recruiters (third-party, not
| in-house) are motivated to find you something that's a good fit
| because they get commission (from the company) based on you
| getting hired. They'll coach you, help you with your resume, draw
| from a huge pool of companies to find something that's just the
| right fit. Their job is solving this exact problem.
| eBombzor wrote:
| Can you recommend any good third party recruiting agencies for
| tech?
| brundolf wrote:
| I'm not sure. Most of the ones I've talked to have contacted
| me on LinkedIn or by email, and I'm not sure how local they
| are/aren't to my area.
|
| Now that I think about it I'm not sure how to actually seek
| one out otherwise... you might attract them by putting
| buzzwords on your LinkedIn? It probably isn't too hard to
| Google for them either
| void_mint wrote:
| Have you tried asking any of the jobs that rejected you're
| getting rejected?
|
| Honestly, just a guess, you're probably giving off bad
| interpersonal vibes/people don't really like talking to you. Half
| of interviewing is just being very personable/being able to talk
| comfortably with other people. Generally in this space (this
| space meaning those interested in tech/startups/etc) sometimes
| people struggle in this area but really shine in tech. I would
| encourage you to spend some time reflecting on your interpersonal
| skills.
|
| Some other red-ish flags from your post - you kinda seem like you
| might struggle just doing exactly what you're asked to do.
| Bringing up how frequently you quit things for various reasons or
| finding issues and bringing them up with your superiors'
| superiors, spoofing numbers to get in touch with very very senior
| people. Lots of lower-tiered jobs literally just need people to
| show up and do what they're asked. A part of getting a "first" or
| "entry level" job is accepting you're there mostly to learn, not
| to teach/move outside of your lane. The fact that you would even
| bring up Bill Landreth seems like you might not necessarily see
| yourself how the rest of the world sees you.
|
| I'm not trying to offend you - I really hope you can line
| something up soon. I apologize if this feedback seems cold - I
| think reflecting on things like this can be hard because you have
| to face things about yourself you may disagree with or not
| realize. Unfortunately interviewing is such a biased game, you
| kind of have to play your opponent (meaning, be the person they
| want, not the person you are).
|
| Happy to chat through any of this stuff if you have questions.
| Wish you all the best.
| geofft wrote:
| What do you have to offer the companies you've applied for?
|
| It's deeply unjust we live in a society where simply being a
| person isn't enough to merit having a home and medical care, but
| that problem isn't going to be solved in time to help you.
|
| If I were a customer support manager and wanted to hire you, what
| would make me hire you over someone else? From your post, it
| sounds like the things you have to offer are that you'd help
| other parts of the company with their problems, and you'd want to
| transfer internally in well under a year. That's maybe good for
| the company, _but that 's not good for me_ - I don't get any
| recognition (or even headcount) for things my new hires on
| customer support do to help other random parts of the company,
| I'm evaluated on whether my customer support people do customer
| support. And new hires need to be trained on the company's
| procedures, which takes a while, so if they leave after a year -
| even if it's better for the company in the long term - that time
| is largely wasted.
|
| Sure, you're providing value to the company. But that value is
| measured by one specific person, your boss. What are you telling
| potential bosses that you'll do? When they ask you about how
| you've brought value in previous jobs and about what you're
| likely to do, do they leave that conversation with the impression
| that hiring you will be a good decision _for them personally_?
|
| I hope you're telling them things other than how you went off
| solving other problems unrelated to your job, no matter how cool
| it was.
|
| It sounds like you're smart. Point that smartness in the
| direction of making it financially worthwhile for someone to hire
| you. You need to offer them more benefit than they offer you, and
| you need to offer them more benefit than the other applicants for
| the role would.
|
| (So, if you want good compensation, you need to offer then quite
| a lot of benefit.)
| somethingtoday wrote:
| Going to be an unpopular opinion:
|
| Look into how you look visually and how you speak and your
| behaviour. Are there things you do that [incorrectly] raise a
| flag for other people? Like someone mentioned on here, get
| detailed feedback.
| nhunter wrote:
| QA at EA is a path to some solid gigs. It just takes time.
|
| Yeah, it's unsexy work, but it pays okay, and if you prove
| yourself, it can lead to some senior roles. There are lots of
| folks that I work with now that started in contract QA and worked
| their way up to 6+ figure gigs inside the company.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| Chances are you somehow act really creepy, which you do not see
| yourself. Ask a friend for a mock interview. _Record it_ and
| watch later.
|
| Don't have a friend? Hire someone. A friend cannot do mock
| interviews? Hand them a list of 10 questions that you remember
| from all those previous attempts and tell them to read it in
| solemn voice.
|
| Nowadays the interviews are remote. Let a friend observe your
| interview and then ask their opinion. (I think recording these
| might be likely illegal? idk)
| snakedoctor wrote:
| Well I was homeschooled since the 6th grade. So, I can
| understand how I can be weird/socially inept. I think that I'm
| more demure than creepy/werid imo.
|
| I did a mock interview with a friend a while back. But good
| suggestions for sure.
| viraptor wrote:
| > Ask a friend
|
| Or ask not-a-friend. A random person who is skilled in
| interviewing and doesn't have a personal relationship with you
| may give you more true answers.
| zdragnar wrote:
| For junior developers, I tend to recommend looking for marketing
| agency / consultancy work. With any luck, you'll get to be on
| projects that last between a few month to a year or two at most
| making small sites or adding features to existing sites.
|
| This is great as it exposes you to a ton of different
| technologies and problem spaces (graphics heavy, data heavy, b2b,
| b2c etc). Each new project is a clean slate without the mistakes
| you previously made, or a chance to see how other people have put
| things together (and possibly learn from their mistakes).
|
| The problem with these jobs is that sticking with them long term
| isn't for everyone; deadlines are often out of your control, as
| is the budget, because you're effectively working for a third
| party. They also tend to not pay big bucks, but they should still
| do better than most of what you seem to have had so far.
|
| Once you get to a point where you feel confident leading teams of
| people, start looking at working for companies that make their
| own product- anything from FAANGs to small startups with good
| funding and existing customers (or whatever tells you that they
| are stable enough for you to be comfortable).
|
| You don't have to follow this path of course, but it is a
| relatively safe one.
|
| Also, if you aren't close to a decently sized city with any
| agencies or contractors, it couldn't hurt to go on LinkedIn and
| make sure that you have your programming experience- professional
| and hobby- listed. Also, be sure to log in at least every few
| days; logging in seems to give you a bump in search results. For
| me, LinkedIn is basically a place for recruiters to cold contact
| people, which may be helpful.
|
| Final note: if you do get contacted by a recruiter about a
| position, see if they are working for the company they are
| advertising or not. If they are not, then they are likely getting
| a commission from placing you- and if they are any good, they can
| help coach you (and might be willing to do a practice interview
| if you ask very nicely). I will admit i haven't tried that last
| bit, but the two jobs I got through recruiters they were both
| genuinely good people who wanted to help however they could.
| tedk-42 wrote:
| From your post, it sounds like you should speak to a doctor as
| you're suffering and you might have a mental health issue.
|
| Sounds like you have anxiety tbh.
| milkytron wrote:
| Have you tried making a profile on Dice?
|
| I was looking for positions and as soon as I made my profile
| public, I instantly started getting calls/emails from recruiters.
| Some of them are shady or hiring for bad companies, but if you
| know what you want (sounds like you do), it makes the process a
| lot easier.
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