[HN Gopher] Latino Programming Language
___________________________________________________________________
Latino Programming Language
Author : chespinoza
Score : 95 points
Date : 2021-04-14 10:09 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.lenguajelatino.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.lenguajelatino.org)
| whb07 wrote:
| This initially thought this would be a nice tutorial/community
| for Spanish speakers but it appears to be that they are
| attempting to write a new programming language.
|
| I'll have to say I prefer the idea of educational site that
| explains and talks about the idea of programming and what not.
| finiteseries wrote:
| The person who builds that educational site now has an entire
| language their students can read and write in.
| yosito wrote:
| I prefer the idea of a non-English programming language being
| used in production at scale. Not for technical reasons, but it
| just seems a little unfair that anyone who is not a native
| English speaker is at an automatic disadvantage in tech.
| _0ffh wrote:
| Memorizing a few foreign language keywords is certainly the
| smallest challenge here. You will have to do so anyway, no
| matter if in a foreign or your native language. It is
| incredible to me that anyone could seriously suggest this
| would make any kind of difference.
|
| I started coding when I was a kid of 12 and certainly not
| (yet) good at English. If anything, my computer hobby helped
| me pick up more English just by the way, than I would have
| without it at that age.
| the_af wrote:
| Heh, I just wrote a reply saying essentially the same as
| you!
|
| English keywords in languages aren't an impediment.
| [deleted]
| the_af wrote:
| In general, Spanish-speaking programmers aren't at a
| disadvantage because of English keywords in programming
| languages. When I started coding I barely knew English, and I
| still understood Commodore BASIC's keywords -- even if I
| pronounced all of them wrong.
|
| The impediment to learning programming is the conceptual load
| of what the keyword _means_ , not the language. You're
| already learning a new language with new "words" (e.g.
| BASIC), what does it matter if it's LOAD or CARGAR, RUN or
| EJECUTAR, PRINT or IMPRIMIR?
|
| The _real_ impediment for Spanish-speakers learning
| programming is that the vast majority of articles on cutting-
| edge tech are written in English. This is changing, but back
| when I started about 99% of articles /manuals were written in
| English. It only helped me learn English faster, though.
| (Videogames -- text adventures and the like -- were the other
| motivation).
| whb07 wrote:
| Ding ding ding!!
|
| People forget that there is the English internet, which is
| wholly different than the other languages.
|
| The idea of a lingua franca in science and business is a
| net positive to be able to unify and communicate
| effectively. If anything we need to teach this idea better.
|
| How do you tell someone they are in a smaller fish tank
| than they currently perceive?
| throwaway8581 wrote:
| This is less important but I think English is a better
| source of language keywords than romance languages. English
| has a lot of short, punchy words due to its germanic
| origin. Even as a Spanish speaker, the Latino code samples
| look tedious compared to the English keyword equivalents.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Except English borrows heavily from Romance languages.
| throwaway8581 wrote:
| I think you think that you're disagreeing with me, but
| you're not. English borrows heavily from Romance
| languages ... and it is also of germanic origin and has a
| lot of germanic origin words.
| whb07 wrote:
| What exactly is in English within Python? There's but a
| couple keywords used, and the phrasing things of "for x in y"
| is something like "para x en y" or similar isn't mind
| blowing.
|
| Not just that, but given that many inventions and concepts
| are American (mostly), they have to use "retornar" instead of
| "return". Again, not a big leap even for a young kid in
| Buenos Aires.
| yakubin wrote:
| I started learning programming before I could speak English well.
| A programming language using English words isn't a barrier in any
| way. Those words aren't real English words, they are symbols.
| Instead of "and" you could very well have "/\" and it wouldn't
| make the slightest difference. As a non-English programmer you
| don't think of those as words, just symbols. And that's
| accidentally closer to the truth and probably even moulds your
| mind into a shape better suited for such an abstract task. Using
| "if" and "else" neither requires, nor is made easier by knowledge
| of what those words mean. (At the time when I learnt it, I knew
| what "if" meant, but not what "else" did. It didn't bother me in
| the slightest.)
| oscargrouch wrote:
| Latin-derived language speaker here (Portuguese). Also by
| studying other languages it turns out that English is quite
| good at expressing simple and composable symbols and structure.
|
| While i would choose a latin-derived language to write poetry,
| speech or a novel because the expressivity, at least in those
| contexts are unparalleled, for clean, honest and even
| scientific terms, if there's a need for a human language, the
| english language, at least for me, is what suit those the best.
|
| Apart from that its also a question of chance and historical
| events.. This sort of tool is great to teach younger kids to
| program and thinking in programming terms. But just like math,
| its reduced to a more symbolic level, so the word you are using
| to define things its not that relevant and giving that
| property, its a good thing that its more universal, just like
| in math.
| User23 wrote:
| I recall reading Dijkstra saying that he preferred that the
| programming languages he used weren't in his native Dutch for
| pretty much the reason you give.
|
| Presumably the use of Greek letters in traditional mathematics
| doesn't present an insurmountable barrier to non-Greek
| speakers.
| Reli_Salazar wrote:
| I completely agree, this probably only makes people have to re-
| learn things when they switch to a more common language, only
| delaying the process of learning english more and more, when it
| is something more than necessary, not just for code, also to
| move around the internet and search for information. I learned
| english after learning to code and honestly, it was never a
| problem, as you say, you just learn those words as "symbols"
| that represent a behavior, nothing more, but, learn different
| "symbols" and then move on to "standard symbols" such as a
| while, return, for, etc. will require an extra effort that
| seems unnecessary to me.
| ModernMech wrote:
| > A programming language using English words isn't a barrier in
| any way. Those words aren't real English words, they are
| symbols.
|
| Okay, but what about error messages? A good error message tries
| to convey the nature of the error in a complete sentence or
| sentence fragment. Comments are often written in English.
| Documentation is often only available in English. Tooling
| suffers the same issue. Non English speakers are forced to
| learn English if they want mastery of the programming language,
| and this goes beyond mere symbol mappings.
| yakubin wrote:
| _> Okay, but what about error messages? A good error message
| tries to convey the nature of the error in a complete
| sentence or sentence fragment._
|
| That's a fair point. I think I saw some compilers with
| translated error messages, which would solve that problem.
| But it was a long time ago, so I'm not sure. However, that is
| an issue external to the programming language per se.
|
| _> Comments are often written in English. Documentation is
| often only available in English._
|
| When you get a programming book translated to Polish,
| comments are going to be written in Polish. Manpages have
| translations into many languages. As for library
| documentation, it's long past the point of an introductory
| programming course.
|
| _> Tooling suffers the same issue. Non English speakers are
| forced to learn English if they want mastery of the
| programming language, and this goes beyond mere symbol
| mappings._
|
| True. However, I think it pays off big time. I think a world
| where people are forced to learn a language that everybody
| speaks is a much better world than one where different
| regions of the world have siloed repositories of knowledge,
| and collaboration can only happen on short distances. I think
| too often people complain that they need to learn A, in order
| to do B, even when A dramatically broadens their horizons and
| lifts the ceiling on what they can achieve. It's similar to
| the common antipathy towards being required to learn maths,
| if you want to do game engine programming, physics, etc.
| Without grasping a good chunk of maths, you're not going to
| be a good game engine developer or physicist. Same with
| English. Without it you're not going to be able to
| efficiently collaborate with others. Documentation is just
| one instance. There is also the usual asking questions on
| forums, reading blog posts, research papers. Those things may
| sound like restrictions to some, when in fact they're the
| opposite.
| smt1 wrote:
| That being said, different languages have different natural
| "lowerings" from the syntax/semantics to some sort of
| isomorphism to mathematical logic. There is also the issue with
| typology of the symbology.
|
| Consider for example: https://wy-lang.org/
| atleta wrote:
| Same here. E.g. I remember I had a problem with the proper
| understanding of AND and OR. But it wasn't because I didn't
| understand the words, it was because I didn't get the concept
| at first.
|
| I pissed myself off quite a bit when my logical expression of
| something like "IF B<50 AND B>100" didn't work. Then my mother,
| who was also a programmer helped that I indeed needed an OR. I
| learned it, but it didn't make sense, because that's not what
| how I would have said it in (any!) natural language.
|
| Later on I've figured out that my misunderstanding was caused
| by the fact that while I've written "IF B<50 AND B>100" I
| _meant_ "IF B<50 AND IF B>100", or more precisely "WHEN B<50
| AND WHEN B>100".
|
| I also remember the surprise when learning that PEEK and POKE
| (two keywords in BASIC) actually both mean something and not
| just made up pair of words.
| guenthert wrote:
| I made the same experience. The 'language' of a programming
| language is a red herring in any case. More of a burden is the
| relevant documentation and on-line resources, which
| overwhelmingly are in English.
|
| I also find it frustrating, when comments or variable/function
| names are in anything but English. KDE, I look at you (even
| though I can read German just fine)!
|
| Allowing anything but ASCII in a programming language is just
| inviting disaster. I'm not looking forward to find Chinese
| characters in source code ...
|
| Perhaps we'll have some day an automated translation tool for
| source code, much like we have today for code-beutifiers.
| leephillips wrote:
| The ability to use Greek letters and Unicode symbols in Julia
| is delightful, because it helps the math in the code to look
| more like math, and makes the code in general more succinct.
| It's optional, but seems to be popular. And Julia is not
| alone here, but the culture around it has embraced it.
| yellowapple wrote:
| On this note, Perl 6 (or Raku nowadays, I guess) takes IMO
| the best approach here (and if Julia doesn't already take
| this approach, it probably should): allowing both fancy
| Unicode symbols for those who prefer them _and_ equivalent
| representations in ASCII (a.k.a. "Texas") for those who
| don't want to have to switch keyboard encodings or look up
| symbols to copy/paste or setup editor macros just to write
| code.
| leephillips wrote:
| TeX commands are built in to the Julia REPL. Just type
| \alpha<TAB> and an a appears.
| lizmat wrote:
| Re "(a.k.a. "Texas")", that meme has been removed from
| the documentation. It's now just ASCII vs Unicode:
| https://docs.raku.org/language/unicode_ascii
| oaiey wrote:
| Hmm .. while I agree there is a case for emojis :)
| e-clinton wrote:
| While I agree that you learn to treat them as symbols, it
| certainly elevates the barrier of entry. I know what "while"
| means in English, so when I'm reading code, there is less of a
| mental load to interpret that code. As a beginner, if I had to
| translate "while" or "throw" or "parse", I'd make learning more
| difficult.
| mort96 wrote:
| It's not that you would translate them though. You don't have
| to know what "while" means in english to use it. You just
| learn that the arbitrary symbol "while" is how you repeat
| something as long as a condition holds. There's not really
| anything language-specific about that, except that "while"
| happens to be a word in English with a meaning which somewhat
| correlates with what the symbol does in the programming
| language.
| jgwil2 wrote:
| Counterexample: as a beginner, I think knowing English made
| "for" harder to understand: for loops in C don't seem to bear
| much relation to the meaning of "for" in common usage: yes,
| there is a condition that initiates the loop, but what about
| the other two statements? For me it was actually something I
| had to de-program from my brain before I could understand how
| they actually worked.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I think it's rooted in mathematical phrases like "for all x
| in the set S..."
| Y_Y wrote:
| That's the problem though, a C for loop doesn't really
| work like that. We only recently got something close with
| the "range-based for" in C++, and while python's list
| comprehensions do pretty much exactly what I think
| mathematical "for" should, it re-uses the keyword in
| different ways elsewhere.
| btilly wrote:
| How recent an innovation this is depends on your
| language.
|
| It was added in C++11 so it looks recent there. But the
| syntax was in Perl 4 back in 1991. And someone who knows
| programming history can probably find older examples
| still in other languages.
| jgwil2 wrote:
| Interesting. I suppose you are probably right, but I
| would still argue it's confusing and doesn't actually
| line up with the semantics of the C-style for loop. If it
| were a language like Python, wherein collections can
| actually be iterated over with a "for ... in ..."
| statement, then it might make more sense. But the C for
| loop just has an initializer, a break condition, and a
| statement executed between loops, so there's not
| necessarily a connection to the mathematical notation,
| even if it's often used to execute some function over a
| collection.
| whatshisface wrote:
| I was curious so I did a bit of historical research.
|
| The "for" loop comes from ALGOL[0]. In ALGOL, the FOR
| statement supports syntax like "FOR V:= AEXP1, AEXP2,...
| DO". That's like the higher-level iterator syntax, except
| it's assigning V via iteration over a sequence of
| expressions (AEXP N) that is _fixed at compile time_.
| That 's the context where FOR makes sense as a term.
| (Step 1: thesis)
|
| Now, ALGOL also happens to support a FOR-STEP-WHILE
| format, which works the same way as the C for-loop[0].
| That makes less sense from a mathematical nomenclature
| perspective, but it is justified through analogy to the
| original FOR definition.
|
| When C, which was based in part on ALGOL, implemented
| for, it dropped the original meaning and kept the special
| case meaning because the latter was more useful, being
| dynamic instead of fixed at compile time. Hence, the for
| loop. (Step 2: antithesis)
|
| Eventually other languages implemented for with
| iterators, returning to the original ALGOL meaning of
| for, but synthesizing it with the dynamism of the C for
| loop. (Step 3: synthesis)
|
| [0]
| https://public.support.unisys.com/aseries/docs/clearpath-
| mcp...
|
| Disclaimer: references to the Hegelian dialectic are for
| entertainment purposes only.
| moistbar wrote:
| I think "for" works better linguistically when taken in the
| context of a "for-each" loop, where my mental pseudocode
| becomes "for each of these, do this." It's a touch
| Yodalike, but it gives me a clearer expectation of what's
| happening and how long it's going to happen than I get from
| a C-style for loop.
| dkarl wrote:
| "while" describes itself particularly poorly for native
| English speakers. It implies a duration that continues until
| a condition changes, but really the condition is only checked
| at the beginning of every loop. English speakers have to get
| over the incongruity using a word for a contiguous period of
| time to indicate repeated checks at distinct points in time.
| sergiotapia wrote:
| Spanish is my first language, if you use this you _severely_
| hamstring yourself. Don't do it.
|
| English is the world most used programming language, just learn
| it. Or perish.
| 4lb0 wrote:
| Another native speaker here. I disagree with most of you.
|
| When I was a kid I played a Captain Tsubasa NES game that was
| completely in japanese. I have no idea of the meaning of the
| Kanji characters I choose but I know pretty well what I was doing
| in short time. I could play the game through trial and error. So
| no, you don't need to know actual english to code.
|
| Now, you and me were invested. We want to code and we were
| willing to learn how to code even without knowing what was the
| meaning of the english words we use. Just like the way I played
| that game. A lot of people is learning how to code like they
| learn basic math. They are not invested. They know is useful
| however didn't want to learn it. This tool is good for them.
|
| I still don't like the name and also don't like they don't allow
| tildes and n. I also think scratch.mit.edu is a better tool for
| people starting to learn how to code.
| zarkov99 wrote:
| Great. Now programming languages are also political tools. We
| should do the same in science. Every scientist should learn every
| language of every other scientist so everybody can write their
| papers in the language of the culture they identify with. That
| will surely advance science and benefit all of us immensely.
| [deleted]
| 8note wrote:
| We could do the same with units, so Americans could talk in
| freedom inches while the French talk in metres
| [deleted]
| Apocryphon wrote:
| This isn't the first language to do this. This isn't even the
| first _post_ about this.
|
| https://hn.algolia.com/?q=non%2Denglish%20programming%20lang...
| creata wrote:
| Oh come on. Given that
|
| * there's already an immense body of scientific work written in
| languages like Chinese and French that the English-speaking
| world lacks access to,
|
| * the main goal of this language is clearly not for
| international collaboration or anything like that,
|
| * not everything non-English is "political", and
|
| * sometimes people just want to teach kids programming without
| having to teach them words in an unfamilar language, too,
|
| your comment comes across as thoroughly nonsensical.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| The lingua-franca of EU is EuroEnglish, for obvious reasons:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_English
| SamBam wrote:
| How does this rebut any of the points you are replying to?
| michaelmior wrote:
| I'm confused what this has to do with politics.
| 8note wrote:
| The advantage native English speakers have in terms of
| leading CS projects, making start ups, and getting the high
| paying tech jobs lessens if speaking English isn't a major
| requirement for reading and writing code.
|
| If instead you need to know Spanish, or don't need to know
| any one specific langauge, it challenges or changes the power
| structure and is thus political.
| jdgoesmarching wrote:
| People getting defensive in this thread over the idea of a
| language not made for them is great evidence of this.
| Instead of ignoring it like the millions of new projects
| that don't apply to you, we must go out of our way to
| explain why this is bad and wrong.
| Mordisquitos wrote:
| Apparently there are two languages: English and _political_.
| TheAdamAndChe wrote:
| Latino isn't a language, it's an identity. That makes it
| political.
| xondono wrote:
| To me the most non-sensical part in this kind of
| arguments is that most of the people identifying
| themselves as "Latino" are people from the US. Most
| people actually born in latin america will self-identify
| with their country of origin (Argentinian, Colombian,..)
| cpp_frog wrote:
| As someone who is latin american, I never understood what
| is the obsession with identity in the US. American
| hispanics I've talked to use it as something of a catch-
| all concept, but I've observed that many only have a
| meagre proficiency in Spanish and know nothing about the
| other Latin American countries that they pack with the
| bunch (apart from their own/their parents).
| brudgers wrote:
| Historically, a large part of it goes back to the Treaty
| of Hildalgo.
|
| It obligated the US to enfranchise Mexican citizens
| living in the seceded lands of Alta California.
|
| This immediately threw a wrench in antebellum politics
| which only allowed "white people" the vote. Eventually
| the US invented a racial category based on speaking
| Spanish...well actually two, one black, one non-black.
|
| Fundamentally the identity of people with cultural
| affiliation to Spanish speaking cultures is complicated
| by the sanctioned narratives of US history which do not
| allow for the US to consider its Latin American heritage.
|
| You could sleep in a hotel in Santa Fe and eat in a
| restaurant when the Pilgrims came ashore at Plymouth
| Rock. And when "fulfilled manifest destiny" reached the
| California coast, there were churches there where people
| went on Sunday...and chattel slavery had been banned for
| two hundred years.
| TheAdamAndChe wrote:
| This is a touchy subject in the US so I don't want to get
| too into it, its a bit off topic. The shortest and most
| neutral answer I can give is that minority political
| groups in the US use identity as a tool to push for
| political change.
| 8note wrote:
| Really it's a geographic location of origin.
|
| There's nothing particularly political about being from
| South america
| SamBam wrote:
| You're right. Imagine if other countries had science journals
| in their own languages.
|
| Science would collapse and politics would reign supreme.
| Mauricebranagh wrote:
| You do know that pre ww2 if you worked in chemistry (and
| physics to an extent) you basically had to learn German, so
| you could read the papers.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| It happened to be the lingua franca for the field at the
| time. So?
| ghosty141 wrote:
| That's a great way to make programming more accessible.
| yegle wrote:
| EPL (Easy Programming Language, EYuYan, Yi Yu Yan ) is a Chinese
| programming language.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easy_Programming_Language is a
| terse page explaining it but I guess any actual document would be
| in Chinese.
|
| From my understanding this language is very popular in amount
| people writing game cheating tools and other malware.
| https://manalyzer.org/report/03b2253bcbb611502eba5b43df3e1dc...
| is one such example.
|
| EDIT: Example EPL code
| https://gitee.com/yyman001/RightHand/raw/master/%E5%8F%B3%E9...
| presumably this is in GKB encoding so it's mostly garbage
| characters.
|
| EDIT: https://www.hexacorn.com/blog/2019/02/13/pe-files-and-the-
| ea... someone wrote reverse engineering an EPL executable.
| 4lejandrito wrote:
| Cool! It looks very similar to a language we designed and
| implemented for a uni assignment years ago, using flex and bison:
| principal inicio entero x, y;
| leer (x); leer (y); si (x > 0) entonces
| si (y > 0) entonces imprimir (1); is
| si (y == 0) entonces imprimir (0); is
| si (y < 0) entonces imprimir (2); is
| is si (x == 0) entonces imprimir (0);
| is si (x < 0) entonces si (y > 0) entonces
| imprimir (4); is si (y == 0) entonces
| imprimir (0); is si (y < 0) entonces
| imprimir (3); is is fin
| flobosg wrote:
| Other Spanish-based programming languages:
|
| * PSeInt (http://pseint.sourceforge.net/)
|
| * Pauscal (http://www.pauscal.com.ar/
|
| * IIRC, Logo has some Spanish interpreters
| winniejinping wrote:
| https://github.com/wenyan-lang/wenyan the ancient Chinese
| programming language is way cooler than this
| ggambetta wrote:
| As someone whose mother tongue is Spanish, and was born and
| raised in Latin America, this feels pointless at best, and
| counterproductive at worst. It will only add an extra layer of
| mental translation whenever someone who learned to program in
| this thing gets a real job.
|
| I started learning BASIC when I was 3 or 4, way before I even
| understood English was a thing. If I could grasp what GOTO did,
| anyone can.
| ccortes wrote:
| > If I could grasp what GOTO did, anyone can.
|
| Then I see no issue translating from this to an "english"
| programming language, so there would be no extra layer of
| mental translation.
| jordigh wrote:
| I disagree (and if you want my credentials, I am Mexican).
| Being able to reason in your own language is a big help. I do
| this with mathematics in various ways. I can both easily say
| "sea equis una variable real tal que equis mas ye son menor al
| limite de efe de equis mas ye conforme ye tiende al infinito"
| or whatever in both English and Spanish, and sometimes I prefer
| saying it in Spanish and sometimes in English. I still count by
| default in Spanish, although of course I can count in English
| (or French or Russian). It feels to me like reasoning and
| language are close in the brain. While you and I have gotten
| used to thinking of for-loops instead of para-loops, I think
| there's good reason to think that a learner could benefit from
| reasoning in their own language.
|
| As far as languages being useless, there's lots of other
| useless language a person could be learning. That doesn't
| discredit the raison d'etre of these languages.
| Y_Y wrote:
| At least in the mind of an experienced code "for loops" have
| their own semantic existence, once you've understood them and
| given them a label then you don't need (in fact shouldn't)
| rely on intuition from your knowledge of English, or whatever
| natural language. Only one person I work with uses their
| computer in Spanish, whereas that's what everyone speaks all
| day, informally at least. I think of these words (programming
| keywords, names of Unix commands, etc.) as just symbols,
| doesn't everyone else?
|
| (Of course this doesn't apply to learners, I don't know about
| that.)
| jordigh wrote:
| I feel like I have to sound out things. It's important for
| me to be able to say "cp that over there" and I actually
| pronounce it as "copy" or say "ls" as "list".
|
| I think a lot in words and about words. When I'm writing a
| for loop I usually sound out the whole thing, even if just
| mentally, "for ecks equals one to ten do" or "for whye in
| the range". I don't think I'm the only one who does this,
| so offering pronounceable things to other people in their
| own language might help.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| Old pre-Internet Mexican here: when personal computers (think
| CoCos and Atari 800s) started coming, BASIC ruled, and it was
| extremely easy to grasp for kids:
|
| GOSUB, RETURN, FOR, DIM, PRINT, PEEK, POKE, etc. were just
| abstract words that we just accepted without fully
| understanding their English roots. They might as well have
| been CALLBACK, THROW, ITER, FOO, BAR, etc., and we would have
| used them just as well. We reasoned in Spanish, then coded
| our reasoning in the abstraction that was BASIC. When reading
| code, it was like reading math, not a story.
|
| More so, with the meme culture nowadays, even kids know
| enough English words to understand the roots of many tokens
| in programming languages.
|
| Maybe programming with tokens rooted in your native language
| actually provides something I wasn't able to enjoy, but
| programming for me feels very different from speaking
| English, I'd bet the two don't even use the same brain
| regions, unless you're forcing yourself to comment in
| English.
|
| Let's see what comes out of Latino. Hopefully they'll add
| Unicode identifiers later, because writing "funcion" instead
| of "funcion" is still bad Spanish.
| atleta wrote:
| The thing is that it isn't your language, even if you're
| native English. (I'm not, I'm Hungarian, which is a 100%
| weird language not too similar to any other.) Most
| programming languages, especially the ones used for
| introduction, use a very limited vocabulary. This e.g. pretty
| much looks like python, I'm sure it has no more that 40
| keywords.
|
| Most of your programs will not be keywords, i.e. symbols from
| the programming language, but the identifiers you define. Now
| you could use your native Spanish (or Russian or Hungarian,
| etc.) for those, but even that is not very useful. When you
| think about the program, you think with the constructs of the
| language (and also, as you get better, with the patterns you
| have learned). Then you express those thoughts with the
| language and the constructs you have created.
|
| The only place I can imagine this making sense is a scratch-
| like block language. But I'd say that even then it just
| hinders learning and development. Sooner or later you'll have
| to switch and the later you do the harder it will be.
|
| Also, this can be a great motivation to actually learn
| English. For me, at least, it was.
| cpp_frog wrote:
| Curious about your level of mathematics exposure? I remember
| that maybe in the most basic introduction to higher maths
| words were coupled with my reasoning, but later on reasoning
| was wordless (Jacques Hadamard reported something similar).
| Sometimes when I spend too much time doing math in the day,
| particularly doing proofs rather than reading, I have dreams
| about manipulating/deducting but no words or language for
| that matter is present. I've had similar experiences with
| programming and chess.
| jordigh wrote:
| I did my bachelor's in maths in English and my master's in
| Spanish. I don't think my reasoning is very wordless, but I
| do think all of my reasoning is kind of geometric. I close
| my eyes and move my arms around to move a normaliser of a
| group action or try to trace with my fingers the integral
| lines of a manifold's tangent bundle.
|
| But as I'm doing these things, I'm often muttering to
| myself as well, and I may do it in Spanish or English.
| ccortes wrote:
| I majored in math and I mostly think with words.
| cgriswald wrote:
| I wonder if that's your training. I do math for fun and
| don't think in words. I often struggle to express my
| reasoning to others as a result.
| moistbar wrote:
| I get this way with Beat Saber. I think I might have a
| problem.
| riffraff wrote:
| It's not unusual, it's commonly called tetris effect
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris_effect
| ggambetta wrote:
| I get your point, and I admit I don't even know what language
| I think in anymore (if that's even a thing). But I'd argue
| that reasoning or talking about code is not the same as
| writing code. I went to university in Uruguay, so naturally
| when discussing stuff we'd say "son dos 'for' anidados" when
| a word didn't have a similar-sounding translation, or
| "escribir una funcion" when it did, and I'm fine with that.
| Discuss and reason in whatever you want.
|
| But very early on I started writing identifiers and comments
| in English, and I think this is critical if you want your
| work to go anywhere. Say you write a piece of code and put it
| in Github, with Spanish identifiers and comments. You've just
| massively increased the barrier of entry to most
| collaborators in the world (have you ever come across code
| commented in Russian or Chinese? Not fun).
|
| And this is just identifiers and comments, not keywords. I
| imagine using _an entire programming language_ in anything
| but English can only make things worse :(
| chrisandchips wrote:
| I agree with OP - the language seems to re-represent the
| languages key words in ways that are natural for Spanish
| speakers to understand.
|
| I think the value this will bring isn't very high. I
| personally believe that early programming has less to do with
| reading the code as natural language and more to do with
| understanding what the individual constructs achieve. This is
| purely anecdotal, but I taught programming to a few students
| in French and the presence of English never came up as a
| blocker.
|
| Fun story : for the hell of it, I once tried to code an
| entire project with some friends in French exclusively (that
| is, mainly variable/method/class names etc). As much as I
| love my mother tongue, its not always very concise. The whole
| thing became super bloated. We ended up reverting back to
| English.
| ModernMech wrote:
| But not everyone who wants to learn how to program wants to
| program as a job. Moreover, proper localization goes well
| beyond changing keywords. Some languages are written right to
| left, or bottom to top. There's also tooling, debug messages,
| and and documentation. Why does all of this need to be in
| English? I think it's fine for people of other cultures to
| write tools localized to those cultures.
| thiht wrote:
| Debug and error messages in particular should NOT be
| translated unless an error code is displayed with them.
| Whenever I use anything that spits me a French error message,
| it becomes impossible to find out what it means using Google.
|
| Windows error messages and the command line on Linux are
| particularly big offenders here.
| DominikD wrote:
| Logo programming language was translated into various natural
| languages (as AC Logo into Polish for example) and this was the
| only reason kids w/o foreign language skills (and English in
| particular) could wrap their heads around it and paint some
| cool stuff with the turtle, learning about recursion and what
| not at the same time.
|
| I learned programming when I was five or six, way before I knew
| any foreign language, but my experience is no excuse for
| gatekeeping. Making programming accessible to a wider audience
| is unequivocally good.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Yes, I teach a Greek student who told me exactly this. His
| first introduction to programming was Greek Logo, and he
| attributes his entire trajectory to learning this one
| language.
| arcticbull wrote:
| For context, English isn't my first language -- but my Spanish
| fu is weak to say the least.
|
| Many programming languages especially more terse, modern ones
| (I'm looking at you, Rust) -- the symbols don't mean anything
| in English either. Does "for" or "fn" or "impl" mean anything
| to average English speakers? This feels more like a bunch of
| extra symbols like "==" and "!" rather than the anglosphere
| enforcing its dominance.
|
| There's plenty of room in the programming languages space for
| this one, to be sure -- I've nothing against it. It almost
| feels like ergonomics and writability are reduced in this
| language to make it _more_ like Spanish than a modern
| functional programming language is like English. It almost goes
| out of its way to replace symbols with words. More like a
| Spanish AppleScript.
|
| Feels more like it's making a point than solving a problem, but
| I'd love to get more perspective from Spanish speakers.
| autarch wrote:
| > Many programming languages especially more terse, modern
| ones (I'm looking at you, Rust) -- the symbols don't mean
| anything in English either. Does "for" or "fn" or "impl" mean
| anything to average English speakers? This feels more like a
| bunch of extra symbols like "==" and "!" rather than the
| anglosphere enforcing its dominance.
|
| Yes, they do. When I was learning Rust it was obvious that
| "fn" was function. "impl" is a little trickier, but I read it
| as "implements" or "implementation of". "dyn" is "dynamic
| implementation of" or something like that. And "for" is the
| same in all the other programming languages I know.
| arcticbull wrote:
| I was suggesting that while you and I may know what they
| mean, the average person unfamiliar with programming is
| definitely going to be thrown for a loop, if you will.
| cgriswald wrote:
| I wonder how much confusion in learning there for English
| speakers because of the use of English words. I might be a
| better programmer if I had been forced to learn abstractions
| in a different way.
|
| In math, if I see an unfamiliar symbol I immediately know I
| don't know what it means. If it were English instead I'd
| automatically try to fill in a meaning. (Of course there is
| also a problem of overloaded symbols...)
| systemvoltage wrote:
| It also reduces the surface area of collaboration, sharing,
| open sourcing, security audits, etc. We have standardized in
| English and it is as arbitrary as any other language - English
| just happens to be the one chosen.
|
| This whole thing needs to be condemned, we get it - its fun to
| do something about your local language and be proud of your
| culture - everyone is. You should be. But, trying to peddle
| this into mainstream is a monumentally catastrophic. I don't
| want the world to be fragmented - we need to get together and
| build better tools.
|
| If anyone who has worked on Chinese datasheets, oh boy, you
| know the pain.
| Koshkin wrote:
| I think it's not fair to require everyone to know English
| enough to be able to write comments in code.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Do you think its fair to require everyone to follow _any_
| standard?
|
| Think of English not in the context of cultural
| importance/language but more formally as a de facto
| standard. A professional would follow the standards. This
| is why we have IETF. It is unquestionable and indisputable
| that standardization improves the world.
|
| That said, comments are probably fine in local language.
| justwalt wrote:
| It's a common theme in posts from ESL programmers that they
| learned English as they needed while learning to program. I
| can't help but think that removing that necessity would allow
| more people who don't speak English to learn to code. It's hard
| for me to see that as a bad thing.
| AlchemistCamp wrote:
| It is? I've lived most my adult life in non-English-speaking
| countries and have seen the opposite--that programmers are
| _less_ likely to be able to speak English well than people in
| less technical professions.
|
| This is probably because many of them studied CS and spent
| comparatively more time with computers and less time
| consuming foreign language materials as students.
| Koshkin wrote:
| Actually, this used to be the norm, back in the day. The Algol
| 68 standard, for example, is language-independent, i.e. it
| admits representation of code in any natural language.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| I'm with you, but I went the other direction: native English
| speaker who learned French localized BASIC (correction:
| LOGO[0]) in a summer program. The words map pretty quickly to
| the abstract concepts without any real need for a translation
| step. I did that as a kid, but I don't see any problem learning
| a programming language in a different language as an adult.
|
| Realistically, what's far more important than the language of
| the keywords is the language of the rest of the identifiers.
| I've typed a lot more distinct function and variable names than
| keywords.
|
| [0] Jogged my memory:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26809211
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > Realistically, what's far more important than the language
| of the keywords is the language of the rest of the
| identifiers.
|
| Exactly. Or the doc.
|
| Having a standard library with a localized doc would probably
| help out learners way more than localizing some keywords. As
| one gets further and further away from the standard library,
| the doc increasingly won't be localized but by then the
| reader should know enough "engineering English" to get by.
| foobarian wrote:
| Not a native English speaker either, and I prefer languages the
| way they are, but - I don't think of them as English per se.
| BASIC or C or Java could have "blargh" loops for all I care as
| long as I internalize them they work fine. I guess you could
| easily accomplish that in C, heh.
| cambalache wrote:
| It is just a cash-grabbing,CV-padding project, it adds nothing
| of value and it paints part of the latin-american tech
| community like clueless idiots. Do you want to use a "latino
| language"(whatever the hell that means), use Elixir.At least it
| is a nice effort for the Erlang VM with real-world uses.
| flobosg wrote:
| I remember having looked at BASIC code without any English or
| programming knowledge and having my attention caught by the
| GOTO statements since it was the most Spanish-looking word
| around.
| jordemort wrote:
| Back before I progressed beyond DOS batchfiles, I kind of just
| assumed that all the commands and keywords would be localized to
| whatever the local language was - I didn't think, for example,
| that Japanese-speaking users were out there typing "echo" and
| "dir" and "printf". I found it surprising and seemingly unjust
| when I learned that folks that spoke other languages generally
| had to learn a fair bit of English along whatever programming
| language they were learning. I can't imagine how much harder it
| must be to pick something up when the mnemonics are foreign
| gibberish to you. Of course now I realize that there's an element
| of practicality to it as well; J. Random Hacker can hardly be
| expected to translate the API they created into N different
| languages that they don't speak themselves. It also cuts both
| ways; GitHub Trending is increasingly full of projects that look
| like they're probably awesome and extremely useful and I have no
| idea what they even are because the documentation is entirely in
| Chinese.
|
| I know some early versions of BASIC would save your source in a
| "tokenized" format, i.e. instead of literally storing "PRINT
| $FOO" they would store some bytecode that represented PRINT
| instead. One could possibly implement a polyglot programming
| language using a similar mechanism, and translate localized
| versions of keywords into (human) language-independent bytecodes.
| You'd have to pick one human language to be the canonical
| representation though, or have some sort of language declaration
| at the beginning of the file, or commit to having the canonical
| representation of your source code not be plain text - all of
| which seem suboptimal for different reasons. It also seems like
| it would be tough to extend that approach to code outside the
| standard library of the theoretical polyglot language.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| There are certain obvious advantages to using a single
| language.
|
| For example: I read r/IWantOut, as well as some CS career-
| related subs, and I myself am an American coder in Germany.
| Based on my own experience, as well as my reading and hearing
| from others, programming is probably the best overall career
| choice if you want the option of living in various different
| countries, in terms of how accessible it is as well as having
| decent pay. A big part of that accessibility is English, that
| you can find a significant number of jobs in many countries
| that don't require you to already know the local language.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > One could possibly implement a polyglot programming language
| using a similar mechanism, and translate localized versions of
| keywords into (human) language-independent bytecodes.
|
| I'm stretching it here, but assembly would tick all boxes here.
| mywittyname wrote:
| I really don't think this is as bad as people make it out to
| be. As you said, it's totally possible -- actually fairly
| straightforward -- to build a programming language with
| keywords that can be in various languages. Perl has a package
| that uses Latin constructs instead of English.
|
| So if there were a huge demand for this kind of thing, we'd
| probably see a lot of it.
|
| There are other professions which require the use of foreign
| terminology: lawyers use Latin, doctors use Greek & Latin,
| chefs use French. Sure, it makes things a little difficult at
| first, but it's probably not any more difficult than learning
| technical jargon in you native tongue. In fact, in some ways,
| it might be easier because the literal translation of "echo"
| might not actually make much sense to a Japanese speaker in the
| context of programming, whereas, with English you can teach a
| Japanese student that "echo" means to put characters on the
| screen.
|
| I remember reading about an effort Britain had to make the law
| more "accessible" by using English instead of Latin, and it
| just made things more difficult because instead of seeing words
| you had no idea the meaning of, now one knew what the statement
| said, but it would mean something completely different than
| they would expect.
| _benj wrote:
| As a native Spanish speaker, this doesn't make sense to me.
|
| Even if the argument of lowering the entry bar to non-English
| speakers was valid (I don't think it is) the individual would be
| severely limited when it comes to collaborating/GitHub/external
| libraries/learning new programming languages.
|
| A big advantage of learning a programming language is that once
| you understand what a "loop" or a "if" you can easily transfer
| that knowledge to another language.
|
| Learning this language as your first language will leave you with
| very little transferable knowledge without much "translation"
| needed (pun intended)
| jack_h wrote:
| I've commented on this before, but I think the issue is
| programming languages mix presentation with representation,
| i.e. text is used for both. Aside from making tooling more
| difficult it also prevents a programming language from being
| multilingual.
|
| While I agree simple keywords in a programming language aren't
| that big of a deal to learn as they are essentially symbols;
| things get a lot more complicated in a real project if a
| contributor is not a native speaker. Identifiers and comments -
| which are used for source code documentation - are in a single
| language and can't be translated easily.
|
| If the presentation and representation were split such that the
| presentation (still text mind you) is just a rendering of the
| representation then it could go through a translation process
| in the same way web pages do. Of course there would be an added
| project overhead of maintaining translations so maybe it
| wouldn't be worth it.
|
| This might be somewhat of a moot point as English is quickly
| becoming the lingua franca. Things such as issue tracking also
| require some common language outside of the source code itself.
| happynacho wrote:
| WTF is this? LOL
| ingkarlgauss wrote:
| Es una locura esto, el siguiente paso es hacer una version para
| el dialecto de cada pais: en Colombia el "While" se deberia
| llamar "peroporquehomeeee" o "sisas" !
| kgin wrote:
| var queMasPues = bien || que
| second--shift wrote:
| "para cada ... tal cual" que pesada ;)
| anthk wrote:
| Y en el lado iberico, si ponemos el murciano o extremeno igual
| invocamos a Cthulu con cada excepcion.
| f14c0 wrote:
| sounds good for introduction to coding for kids in non-English
| speaking countries.
| the_af wrote:
| Spanish speaker here. My experience is that English keywords in
| programming languages aren't an impediment. Most other
| programmers in my country (and others, judging by what I read)
| share my experience.
|
| Localized keywords don't translate well to a later experience
| with programming languages at large.
| anthk wrote:
| Kids in the 80's learnt Basic in English just fine. Even basic
| terminology such as input, output, load, save and so on. Also
| we began to learn English by age 8-10 or so, so is not an
| issue. As they stated, the biggest issue is that the
| _documentation_ itself is, by a huge margin, in technical
| English.
| 29athrowaway wrote:
| There are 2 popular programming languages of Latin American
| origin, Lua and Elixir, both from Brazil.
| bigyikes wrote:
| I thought it was slightly funny that I can read the Latino
| programming language better than I can read Spanish, despite
| never seeing the former.
| mariuolo wrote:
| What kind programming paradigm does it use?
|
| It wasn't clear from the website.
| soldehierro wrote:
| If you're going to use Spanish keywords, atleast spell them
| correctly. Is it that hard to use "funcion" instead of "funcion".
| m463 wrote:
| I vaguely remember Applescript used to be internationalized a
| long time ago.
|
| The keywords would display in different languages.
|
| That said, why can't other languages be internationalized, maybe
| in the editor?
|
| I think it would be fun to program in spanish.
| siesta(5);
| gtk40 wrote:
| Why is it called "Latino" when it is just in Spanish and not
| Portuguese (or maybe French? not sure if Haitians are Latino). It
| seems like "Hispanic" would be the better term since this is
| language focused rather than geography focused.
| jordigh wrote:
| "Latino" is kind of a cultural designation of the US to refer
| to Spanish speakers, although it is used somewhat outside of
| the US, but not as prominently. I am guessing this language was
| just being made in the US where Latino is an accepted
| descriptor for Spanish speakers only.
| gtk40 wrote:
| It very commonly refers to Portuguese-speaking Brazilians in
| my area.
| oscargrouch wrote:
| The big problem of this use for me is that people from the
| US tend to think in terms of "race". Like if there is a
| homogeneous "latino race" where it boils down to the
| average mexican immigrant that the US is more used to.
|
| For instance, you can see this in north-american films,
| where the mexicans are hired to play Brazilians, where we
| (brazilians) can spot right-away they dont look like any
| type of average looking brazilian. But im pretty sure it
| make sense for the crew of the film and people watching it,
| even when they speak spanish.
|
| Just to give you a glimpse of famous brazilians north-
| americans may know: Rodrigo Santoro, Morena Bacarin, Alice
| Braga, Gisele Bundchen, Alessandra Ambrosio, Jordana
| Brewster, Camilla Belle, Kaya Scodelario, Wagner Moura.
|
| The thing is, i've just give you this sample, so you can
| see how they don't have any resemblance between each other
| or homogeneous look. The ones that speak perfect english
| can perfectly act in roles not meant for "latinos" and
| nobody notice it.
|
| I think nowadays is right to use this term in the same
| sense as you use for Europe to define France or Italy as
| part of Europe. Albeit is even wrong to use in the sense of
| a continent giving America is just one continent, with
| north and south.
|
| Anyway if you dig down and look to all the inconsistencies
| of the term it boils down to some sort of racial profiling
| thing, because it makes no sense in any other way you look
| at it except for labeling it as "not white".
| enriquto wrote:
| Using "latino" to refer to Spanish speakers is a doubly
| offensive act of US-ian cultural imperialism.
|
| First, "latin" generally means romance language, i.e.,
| languages descended from latin, including French, Italian,
| Romanian, Portuguese, Catalan, and so on. Using this word to
| refer exclusively to Spanish makes sense only from the point
| of view of the USA, where the largest group of latin people
| are Spanish speakers. Thus, imposing this usage in an
| international context reeks of U.S. cultural imperialism.
|
| Second, "latin america" was originally defined by the French
| in opposition to "anglo america", to designate specifically
| Quebec, part of Louisiana, Mexico, etc; the areas of the
| Americas where latin languages are spoken. This excludes
| large swaths of the americas in Bolivia, Peru, Brasil,
| Mexico, where other languages are spoken (Guarani, Aymara,
| etc).
|
| I consider latin or latino myself, but I wouldn't touch this
| US-assumption-infested "Latino Programming Language" with a
| ten foot pole.
| crvdgc wrote:
| To all native English speakers, before talking about standards
| and lingua franca, try to implement some basic algorithms in
| Latino and take a minute to imagine a world where it is the
| standard (programming & documentation). Then you'll understand
| the meaning of "entry barrier" and "language advantage", if you
| remember that's the reality for billions of people in the world
| including me.
| rigoleto wrote:
| Thank you. Too many commenters here, years removed from being a
| beginner, aren't getting it.
| hervature wrote:
| As someone who doesn't care about the language, my question is
| if the goal is to reduce the entry barrier, what is the benefit
| of this language versus investing the same amount of time in
| Spanish documentation and a Spanish transpiler for Python?
| Multi language documentation is definitely lacking, but making
| a new language adds to the complexity of the space, it doesn't
| reduce it.
| brudgers wrote:
| Multi-lingual documentation is premised on the idea that
| languages derived from English are better or at least good
| enough. The premise of this language is that they are not.
|
| The Python community is not committed to multi-language
| documentation. And it has the ideology of "unpythonic" as an
| excuse for denigrating anyone who might be.
| hervature wrote:
| I hardly call the use of a few keywords as "derived from
| English". There are 36 keywords in Python, one of them
| being __peg_parser__, what the hell does that mean for an
| English speaker? Maybe the Python community is not the best
| example, I did not know they actively subverted any
| attempts at multi-language. But still, forking the project
| and simply renaming and translating the documentation would
| serve much better at lowering the barrier of entry, if
| that's the goal. The cynic in me thinks that the creators
| of the language simply used that excuse as a way to justify
| scratching their itch to create a new language given that
| there are so many better ways to remove the English barrier
| to programming.
| brudgers wrote:
| Python was mentioned in the parent comment.
|
| "List comprehension" is English. "Object" is English.
| "Keywords" too. As well as "benevolent dictator for
| life."
|
| Python doesn't embrace non-English efforts. That's the
| nature of it as a community...not encouraging second ways
| of doing things is its dogma.
| hervature wrote:
| > Python was mentioned in the parent comment.
|
| Yes, you're still talking to the same person. But your
| comment is even more confusing. Are you arguing that
| "list comprehensions" are part of the language because we
| have a nice pairing of English words for that thing and
| that core programming concepts are missing because we
| don't have English words for them? It seems like an
| absurd stance, especially because we're talking about
| Spanish where it's basically a meme to add "a" or "o" to
| the end of the English word. Almost all programming
| concepts are words that I'd never use in daily
| conversation. Again, my root argument is that if you want
| to serve the Spanish community, forking the <any
| established language> project and translating everything
| seems like more payoff for less effort than creating a
| brand new language. It doesn't really matter what the
| original community thinks.
|
| As an educator, specifically to South Americans learning
| programming and data science, the biggest hurdle I
| encounter is understanding concepts not that the words
| are in English. Logistic regression, L1 regularization,
| OLS, for loop, Simpson's paradox, none of the hard parts
| in teaching those are the fact they contain English
| words.
| drinkcocacola wrote:
| I also feel this effort is completely pointless. Java for
| instance has 52 reserved words. 52!!! the complexity of
| programming does not lie in the meaning of just 52 english words.
| That's actually the easiest part. As you get better you
| eventually will pick a production-ready language such as
| JavaScript or Kotlin, only to realise that you now have to learn
| the meaning of the words...
| tombert wrote:
| I always wondered why there weren't more non-English programming
| languages...it seems like it gives an incredibly unfair advantage
| in compsci for Americans and British and Irish compared to most
| other countries in the world. Programming is hard enough to learn
| even when you speak the main language, let alone having to learn
| English in the process as well.
| thiht wrote:
| Because if you use a keyboard with the latin alphabet, the
| language of the keywords is not a big deal. What's important is
| for the tutorials and documentation to be translated, not the
| language itself.
|
| When you use a non latin keyboard I guess having a language
| matching your keyboard might be more important.
| ModernMech wrote:
| There are more than a few, but none of them are nearly
| mainstream:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_...
|
| A lot of these start as passion projects by native speakers and
| don't gain much traction. Actually, here's one that was posted
| just over the weekend, so maybe didn't get a lot of attention:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26771369
| tombert wrote:
| Yeah, I figured that they have to exist (didn't see the Cree
| one, I will look at it) just due to "law of large numbers"
| reasoning.
|
| It always just seemed a bit weird to me, there are more
| native Spanish speakers then English speakers...why has
| English become the lingua-franca for a base of programming
| languages? Is it as simple as "Apple, IBM, and Microsoft
| started in the US"?
| ModernMech wrote:
| I think it comes down to the fact that the predominate view
| of programming languages is that they are math and tools
| for conducting science/business. English was the lingua-
| fraca for science/business long before programming
| languages were around so it might have followed naturally
| that programming languages should be localized in English
| as well.
|
| But it's hard to say, there are a lot of cultural elements
| at play. We see one right here in this very language that
| is trying to escape the English domain -- it doesn't have
| support for character accents native to the language it's
| trying to support. This limitation probably derives from
| the days when bytes were highly expensive, so character
| encodings had to be frugal with their use of memory. With
| one byte you can encode enough characters for the English
| alphabet, numbers, symbols, and control characters, but
| you're not going to have enough for all the combinations of
| accents. Just look at what went into the extended ASCII
| table: they made room for some common accented characters
| from western nations, but also allocated precious space for
| copyrights, trademarks, fractions, legal symbols, more
| mathematical operators, and currency symbols of the largest
| nations. More than a purely technical decision, this is a
| statement of priorities.
|
| Again you see programming-as-math/science playing a role
| here; character encodings for mathematical symbols were
| given priority, but characters that could be used for
| communicating in other languages were disregarded. This is
| likely because the kinds of applications people were
| looking to use programming languages for were based in
| math/science, so those symbols were viewed as
| indispensable. I'm not saying this was wrong, btw, I'm just
| saying that's the way these things evolved.
|
| This very early (circa 1960) decision still has rippling
| consequences even today, so it's clear momentum of early
| choices in computing plays a large role here.
| qwertywert_ wrote:
| Well most were created in C like, Lua made by a brazillian,
| Ruby made by Japanese guy. So yea they already had to base
| of existing US tech.
| rootsudo wrote:
| Yikes. Same level as people using latinx.
| smsm42 wrote:
| USSR did it for Russian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapira
|
| Wasn't a bad language btw. Support for pretty large numbers (up
| to 2^1016) out of the box, for example. Flexible data types (e.g.
| sets, tuples, structures, etc.). Optional typing. Not too bad for
| early 80s.
| HMH wrote:
| This is certainly fun to look at. Thinking about this, are there
| any programming languages that do i18n for their keywords?
| me_me_me wrote:
| Remember COBOL, this is a path towards a v2 of that disaster.
| jan_Inkepa wrote:
| Cool to see programming languages using non-english as a base.
|
| However,
|
| > No son validas las letras acentuadas u otros caracteres como la
| n.
|
| ["Accented letters or other characters such as n are not valid."
| sez deepl]
|
| https://manual.lenguajelatino.org/es/stable/sintaxis/Variabl...
|
| Looks like it doesn't support accented characters in variable
| names. I wonder what their reason for excluding those is?
| jgwil2 wrote:
| It does seem like support for Spanish-language characters
| should be a feature of a Spanish-based programming language.
| ufo wrote:
| I don't know what was they reason they chose but a one possible
| one is that unicode variable names introduce several
| implementation challenges. You need to worry about
| normalization (the same character may be represented by
| different byte sequences) and you might need to have large
| tables to be able to tell whether an unicode character is a
| letter or a symbol. There are also problems with encodings;
| UTF-8 vs Latin-1 and so on...
| mumblemumble wrote:
| I imagine it wouldn't have been _that_ hard, if the authors
| had just used ICU4C for string handling. I 've had good luck
| with just converting all input to normal form C. The bigger
| challenge there is that, if you're using ICU strings, then
| you've lost the ability to use any library that is designed
| to work with C strings. There's no way to avoid 0x00 showing
| up in the middle of UTF-16 and UTF-32 strings, and, even if
| you use modified UTF-8 to avoid NUL bytes, you still break
| the assumption that a string's length is equal to its size is
| bytes.
| ufo wrote:
| Not to mention the inherent problem of adding a dependency
| to an external library.
|
| I know that in the case of Lua that was one of the main
| reasons. ICU by itself would be larger than the rest of the
| interpreter.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Lack of Unicode support in the parser? Can't think of any other
| reason.
| JaumeGreen wrote:
| Yeah, I wonder the same. After all making a programming
| language derived from a real language and not using the
| "features" of said language seems lacking.
|
| In fact it should be "funcion", that way it would not matter
| whether you are writing code or documentation.
| User23 wrote:
| Here's the Sieve of Eratosthenes as a fun example of what
| you're asking for[1]. #!
| /usr/local/bin/perl -w use
| Lingua::Romana::Perligata; maximum inquementum
| tum biguttam egresso scribe. meo maximo vestibulo
| perlegamentum da. da duo tum maximum
| conscribementa meis listis. dum listis
| decapitamentum damentum nexto fac sic
| nextum tum novumversum scribe egresso.
| lista sic hoc recidementum nextum cis vannementa da listis.
| cis.
|
| [1]
| http://users.monash.edu/~damian/papers/HTML/Perligata.html
| OrbitRock wrote:
| We really need an n operator
| mumblemumble wrote:
| I'm guessing it's because the language was implemented in C,
| whose stdlib doesn't really do Unicode strings, and the authors
| didn't think to use a different string type for identifiers
| until it was too late.
| OrbitRock wrote:
| Great, now everybody will laugh when you try to name a variable
| "year".
| SamBam wrote:
| I spent way too long trying to work out if there was an
| accented Spanish word "year" or something that was funny...
| nperez wrote:
| For those who don't speak Spanish, ano is "year", and
| without the accent on the "n", it's a body part that you
| can probably guess :)
| sergiotapia wrote:
| that's why I type it `anho` when speaking with latino
| friends i don't have the n on my english keyboard
| anthk wrote:
| setxkbmap us -variant intl -option compose:rwin]
|
| Press altgr or right win key + [aeiou] or n.
| SamBam wrote:
| You're using the Portuguese transliteration of the ene.
| And if you were doing it with an Italian or French
| transliteration, you could write "agno."
|
| (That said, it's one that's so common it's worth learning
| the keyboard shortcut for. On a Mac it's "opt-n, n".)
| dynamic_sausage wrote:
| Non-English-based programming was common in the Soviet Union,
| but certainly not unique to it:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_...
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| I know that languages like Swift can support Emoji, so why not
| support accented latin characters?
| jan_Inkepa wrote:
| Full Emoji support is ... horrendous ... I look into it about
| once a year; I think there are proposals for unicode but as
| of now it's still super hard to detect if something's a
| single emoji symbol or not (the most current regex I saw for
| emoji-matching was, IIRC, several KB in size...). Some day in
| our cyberpunk future we'll get there...probably some decades
| after full self-driving vehicles have become standard...
| tediousdemise wrote:
| Couldn't this be accomplished in a language like C++ using
| macros/typedefs/templates? Just make an alias for every single
| built-in keyword/type in the target language. Would be an
| interesting experiment, although you would still have to
| translate all the libraries that do the heavy lifting, which
| would be monumental effort... might want to automate it using
| something like Google Translate, and then review it for quality
| with a native speaker.
|
| Good luck searching for online documentation and StackOverflow
| answers in your new bespoke language. You'll probably need an
| interpreter that translates your search queries back into the
| base language syntax.
| tapia wrote:
| I remember from my times at the university that the TI Voyage 200
| (and probably TI89, too) had the option to program in different
| languages. I tried the Spanish version, but apart from being an
| interesting exercise, I didn't see much use in programming in
| Spanish. Furthermore, if I remember correctly, if you wrote a
| program in Spanish, then it would not run after you set the
| language back to English... so not so good if you wanted to
| interchange code.
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| The `unison` programming language represents all symbols as
| labels on hashes, so it makes it relatively trivial to remap from
| one language to another.
|
| I commented on another thread about being hype about this, and
| people pushed back, commenting that it's really beneficial to
| have English as the lingua franca of software development.
|
| It strikes me that lowering the barrier to entry by not forcing
| someone to learn programming _and_ English is positive. But
| fragmenting standard communication language harms software as a
| whole. Plus, learn English and you get access to millions upon
| millions of man hours in libraries and documentation.
|
| Maybe it's not really an either/or here; better for people to
| have choices.
|
| All of that said, "Latino" seems like a particularly terrible
| name for a programming language: it should probably be
| hispanohablantes for correctness.
| SiempreViernes wrote:
| > All of that said, "Latino" seems like a particularly terrible
| name for a programming language
|
| Now I'm not sure who you think python is for...
| jgwil2 wrote:
| I think Python is a good name because although it's
| arbitrary, there's very little domain overlap that could
| cause confusion: context can pretty much always tell you
| whether people are referring to the language or the animal.
|
| Latino, on the other hand, seems to have a little more
| overlap: it's very close to Latin, an actual language, and
| also refers to the _latinoamericano_ cultural identity, which
| is largely defined in relation to language. Thus the
| possibilities for confusion seem a bit greater (I think OP 's
| suggestion of "hispanohablantes" would also cause a lot of
| confusion).
| roflc0ptic wrote:
| Yes, hispanohablantes was a little tongue in cheek. Perhaps
| latinx for maximal confusion
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Presumably latinx will be an X Windows implementation in
| Latino. At least I hope that happens at some point
| because I enjoy punny approaches to naming things.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Perhaps latinx for maximal confusion
|
| Latin@ is a little bit less of an USAism, but I'm not
| sure if that's a pro or con in the maximal confusion
| department.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > It strikes me that lowering the barrier to entry by not
| forcing someone to learn programming _and_ English is positive.
|
| In my country's technology courses, students are often
| introduced to programming through a language called Portugol
| which is essentially a translated Pascal. There's no compiler,
| no interpreter or anything. For months on end students have to
| write procedural code _on paper_ with this useless language.
| benjaminjosephw wrote:
| Wow, that sucks. Wouldn't a source-to-source compiler into
| Pascal be a good option in that case? Writing a simple
| compilers might also be a good learning opportunity for the
| more experienced. Compilers are a way simpler concept than
| they might seem and really easy to write too.
| highspeedbus wrote:
| There is a bunch of portugol compilers, all incompatible with
| each other since this is not a well defined language. Kinda
| the point is to not waste time learning syntax and use
| whatever imaginary functions calls you want.
|
| The more serious problem is when teachers uses it as a hammer
| to every nail and teach advanced concepts using it, so
| students are forced to reason about fine syntax of a
| fictional language.
| qsort wrote:
| As a non-English speaker, I don't really conceptualize code as
| English. Tokens being 'if', 'while', 'else' is completely
| trivial, like using '{' instead of 'begin' or '[]<class T>(T i)
| {return i;};' instead of '(lambda (x) x)' or 'y => y'.
|
| I wrote my first line of code before I wrote my first word in
| English, the status-quo doesn't really require you to learn
| English beyond a couple trivial tokens.
|
| I agree choices are good and I hope the project succeeds, but
| it must be stressed that learning English isn't really optional
| anyway, it's a hard requirement for any IT-related job
| worldwide.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| That's true for keywords, but a much bigger problem are
| standard libraries. I don't think you could realistically
| understand the Swing API to pick an example without
| understanding English, even if you had access to docs in
| another language.
| brudgers wrote:
| Documentation too.
| bombcar wrote:
| I think it might affect some languages more than others -
| perl is just line noise in any language, but I could see SQL
| "dialects" in various languages.
|
| But even then I feel that in that case non-english speakers
| might have a bit of an advantage as they don't assume things
| about SQL because it doesn't look like their native language.
| qsort wrote:
| > but I could see SQL "dialects" in various languages.
|
| IIRC AppleScript used to support French, but it's an
| unpopular variant of an unpopular language, so I'm not
| really sure how many people actually used it.
|
| > But even then I feel that in that case non-english
| speakers might have a bit of an advantage as they don't
| assume things about SQL because it doesn't look like their
| native language.
|
| Yeah, the sooner you realize it's the _abstract_ and not
| the _concrete_ syntax you 're actually manipulating, the
| better. IME (natural) language is just not a barrier at
| all.
| jgwil2 wrote:
| I would think that if there is any language that could be a
| viable alternative to English for programming, it would be
| Chinese: more native speakers than any other language, and with
| a writing system distant enough from that of English that
| learning English might actually constitute a significant
| barrier. Spanish is just not there. Yes, there are a lot of
| native speakers, but it's close enough to English that it's
| probably not going to be worthwhile to most Spanish-speaking
| programmers to participate in the alternative ecosystem (not to
| mention that it has less economic clout than Chinese).
| [deleted]
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| To begin with, the page is full of typos and grammar errors. Many
| parts of it read like they were translated by beginners in
| Spanish or machine translation (so kind of , what's the point if
| they're using Spanish carelessly?).
|
| Then, a bunch of the keywords in the programming language itself
| don't make a lot of sense - "for" maps to "desde", not "para" -
| so I have to remember an arbitrary term that doesn't do what it
| means or mean what it does. At that point I might as well learn
| "for", right?
|
| Remembering that "si" is "if" doesn't seem like a huge burden.
| The fact that "si" in Spanish is used as both a conditional and
| affirmative ("yes") can actually lead to more confusion and
| ambiguity.
|
| Overall it doesn't feel like a very well-designed language nor
| does it feel natural as a Spanish speaker which defeats the
| point.
| nmeofthestate wrote:
| If anyone else is confused, the language has Spanish keywords. My
| browser automatically translated the code snippet into English
| for me, leaving me wondering why the language "has received the
| love and support of Hispanic users around the world".
| bogota wrote:
| I'm not sure the merits of using this in production but as a tool
| for introducing someone to programming this is awesome.
| ashneo76 wrote:
| Agreed. Non-english for introduction is good. But for
| production it is going to impede collaboration and your
| understanding.
|
| As a non native speaker, I have seen my friends struggle with
| english in grad school when they were taught math and science
| in their native tongue. This is a different programming
| language not just python with spanish variables. Translating to
| english and then having to translate the code later on, is
| going to be a huge barrier.
| ElectricMind wrote:
| I have feeling someone German/Russian is already working on this
| one. Davay geht los :)
| ch4s3 wrote:
| Regarding the WHY question...
|
| > El desarrollo y administracion del lenguaje Latino para que
| escuelas, universidades, maestros, estudiantes y profesionales
| encuentre en Latino una herramienta para resolver los problemas
| del dia a dia.
|
| The development and administration of the Latino language so that
| schools, universities, teachers, students, and professionals find
| a tool to solve day to day problems.
|
| It seems to be targeting teaching and learning as well as some
| simple business use. Interesting idea, I wonder if it will catch
| on.
| keiferski wrote:
| If software is "eating the world", it is inevitable that local
| dialects will arise. I wouldn't be surprised if the world of 2100
| is full of popular non-English programming languages.
| TulliusCicero wrote:
| If anything, it seems to be going the other way to me. In
| Europe, programming jobs only requiring English (and not the
| local language) seem steadily on the rise, because it means
| companies can pull talent from other parts of Europe, or even
| further abroad.
|
| If you're a German company that wants to also be able to hire
| coders from France and Italy and Romania, requiring German
| proficiency is going to drastically cut down the potential
| international labor pool you can draw on. And that's for one of
| the biggest European languages -- imagine what the calculus is
| if you're a company in Denmark or Slovenia.
|
| Plus, let's say you start with the local language, but then
| your company gets big. At some point, you may want to open up
| offices in other countries...but what do you do then? Have
| German source code from your German devs, and French source
| code from your French devs?
| keiferski wrote:
| The EU is a particularly unique situation where a unified
| language is useful and that language will probably be
| English.
|
| Latin America, for example, isn't the same.
| cakebrewery wrote:
| Instead of entire new programming languages, maybe existing
| languages can have alternate localizations (done at the IDE
| level). The same source code would display in a different
| language from a user with their IDE in Spanish vs the user with
| their IDE in English.
|
| Edit: Food for thought regarding reserved keywords...
| vehemenz wrote:
| How about a macro system that replaces keywords in any natural
| language for any programming language? This would be only an i8n
| layer that doesn't mess with any core functionality of the
| programming language.
|
| As long as you don't support COBOL, it should be pretty
| straightforward.
|
| Edit: Maybe not so straightforward!
| klyrs wrote:
| A consequence of this is that you can't use keywords from _any_
| language for your symbol names. Or, I guess, you could do like
| Perl and defined symbols need a $ prefix or somesuch
| Jtsummers wrote:
| This would be easier with languages where keywords are in clear
| and consistent syntactic positions and identifiers can match
| keywords (that is, the keywords are only "kind of" special,
| more by position than value).
|
| Otherwise, you'll run into issues when someone is using
| Language X but has identifiers that happen to coincide with
| Language Y's keywords. You wouldn't want to error out here, and
| you don't want Language X writers to be forced to be aware of
| the many hundreds of extra keywords that are now required
| knowledge to avoid collisions and permit universal translation.
|
| For instance, in a programming language which uses `and` as a
| keyword in English for the logical operation, this would be
| translated into Spanish as `y`. Well, in graphical applications
| `y` is a perfectly natural variable name for the English
| speaker (and probably the Spanish speaker, but their dialect of
| the language wouldn't permit it). Now the English program can't
| be translated properly into Spanish _unless_ the syntax is such
| that variables and keywords are always unambiguous so that this
| can be legal in the Spanish version: y < 0 y x
| > 10 y < 0 and x > 10
|
| Of course, switching to a language which prefers symbols over
| keywords would help to minimize this issue (as in C where `and`
| is not a keyword, in contrast with Ada where `and` is a
| keyword).
| shafin_ wrote:
| Very cool. I am also working on a non english programming
| language. Github repo: https://github.com/Shafin098/pakhi-bhasha
| nerdponx wrote:
| I love the idea, but this an especially un-Google-able name for a
| programming language.
| bigmattystyles wrote:
| I know they are aiming to be a real language but isn't this
| effectively an art project? In that sense, it is very effective
| at pointing out how English-centric programming is. As a non
| Spanish speaker, I instantly felt what those learning to program
| must feel when they don't know any English. Utter confusion.
|
| It does seem like it should be trivial for every programming
| language to have a localization file for keywords to be rendered
| in a local version on the user's machine. Though then you still
| have to deal with variables and comments.
| BiteCode_dev wrote:
| Most things in programming are human conventions that you have
| to learn. There is rarely a way to guess or figure things out.
| Keywords, scoping, byte order... It's all arbitrary,
| understanding the English meaning of the world "yield" in
| English will do little to help you understand generators.
|
| No, the real problem is the reading material. If you need to
| debug/read doc/google stuff, anything worth something (except a
| few exceptions like samemax.com and so on) will be in English.
|
| I've seen French professionals being perfectly capable
| programmers, but because their English sucked, their struggled
| to solve some problems that were a Stackoverflow post away.
| juliand wrote:
| Here are some code examples for anyone curious to see how it
| looks
|
| https://github.com/lenguaje-latino/latino/tree/master/ejempl...
| ufo wrote:
| My first impression is that it looks like a mix of Lua and
| Python.
| yosito wrote:
| > Latino es un lenguaje de programacion con sintaxis en
| Espanol creado en C, inspirado en Lua y Python
|
| Well, yeah....
| tgv wrote:
| I don't see much Python, mainly Lua with Spanish keywords and
| function names, basically. while => mientras, if => si, end
| => fin, break => romper, print => poner, etc.
|
| I learned programming with such a "localized" version of
| simplified FORTRAN, but I didn't find it intuitive or
| conducive to learning how to program. Later, I read a study
| (can't cite it; lost the details) that found interference
| from programming language keywords in English speakers, but
| not in others, and they suggested it might actually be easier
| to learn programming with English keywords.
| ufo wrote:
| It says it has local-by-default scoping, which would be a
| Python influence. But now I'm not sure. When I tested the
| program the variables set inside the function seem to still
| be present after the function returns?
| the_af wrote:
| I still remember Visual Basic with Spanish keywords. It was... a
| mess, and it really didn't do anything for Spanish speakers
| except fragment the VB user base.
| anthk wrote:
| Also with VBA for MSOffice where even damn Excel functions were
| localized. Useless crap.
| bobthechef wrote:
| Not sure what the fuss is about. Plenty of languages[0] have
| existed that used native keywords over English. Unless your
| natural language's grammar introduces some novel syntactic or
| semantic features to the programming language, this is
| superficial. It's just a kind of localization. You could adapt
| the parser for any language to do this. Heck, in a Lisp, you can
| just define a bunch of aliases and wrappers and load that into
| your current namespace if you want.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-
| based_programming_...
| drfuchs wrote:
| The French Ministry of National Education tried supporting a
| similar sort of effort 50 years ago:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LSE_(programming_language)
| ectoplasmaboiii wrote:
| Awesome! I have always wondered if language like spanish and
| arabic have (widespread) programming languages.
|
| As an aside: I guess the fact that k only uses symbols makes it a
| very inclusive language :)
| second--shift wrote:
| la unica pregunta que tengo es .... porque? Nosotros que somos
| hispanohablantes no hemos necesitado esto - los lenguajes que ya
| existen sirven muy bien.
|
| Como un ejercisio tecnico, les aplaudo. Pero no es un `Lisp`, y
| asi, no es para mi
| commandlinefan wrote:
| It looks more or less like Javascript with Spanish keywords
| instead of English. I guess it's an argument for a purely
| symbolic (and therefore equally accessible) programming
| language.
| ducharmdev wrote:
| That's an interesting point - on the topic of readability,
| its often argued that the more abstract symbols and operators
| used, the harder it is to read (I think this is why operator
| overloading is sometimes frowned upon). But if you are not
| fluent in English, it wouldn't be much more accessible than a
| purely symbolic language.
|
| The tricky thing about this, is we search based on language
| all the time. It's harder to search for an operator if you
| don't already know what that operator is called.
|
| Maybe you could build this into the tooling of the symbolic
| language? E.g. provide a semantic name for a given std lib
| function in your chosen language, and get intellisense in
| your language.
| mywittyname wrote:
| Symbols have different meanings in language too. For example,
| would you use "string" or <<string>> to quote a string?
| [deleted]
| paperbackwrter wrote:
| como ejercicio parece muy interesante pero para algun uso real
| o educativo creo que no es la mejor opcion.
|
| Fuera de tema: He leido HN los ultimos tres anos y creo que es
| el primer comentario en espanol que he visto. Solo dato
| curioso.
| ccortes wrote:
| Porque se puede.
| ggambetta wrote:
| De acuerdo... me parece una perdida de tiempo y/o una idea
| terrible.
| jordigh wrote:
| Depende de cuales hispanohablantes estemos hablando. Cierto es
| que muchos de nosotros simplemente hemos aceptado que la
| programacion, por lo menos las palabras clave, estaran en
| ingles. Pero los novatos y aprendices que nunca han programado
| y que no hablan ingles, quizas podrian aprender mejor con un
| lenguaje en su idioma.
|
| No deberia ser requisito riguroso hablar ingles para poder
| participar en la creacion de software. Y no lo es, en general,
| salvo por algunas palabras clave en lenguajes de programacion.
| Si es posible reducir esta barrera... ?por que no?
|
| La gente habla de que esto fragmentara mas a la comunidad.
| Fragmentados ya estamos. Hay mucha gente que no puede entender
| con facilidad las respuestas en Stack Overflow. Si fomentamos y
| propiciamos mas el uso de otros idiomas, seguramente podriamos
| acercarnos mas a mucha mas gente que podria ser nuestros
| futuros colaboradores.
| second--shift wrote:
| Hola, y saludos!
|
| > Pero los novatos y aprendices que nunca han programado y
| que no hablan ingles, quizas podrian aprender mejor con un
| lenguaje en su idioma.
|
| Es mi opinon que el pueblo (hispanohablante) que esten
| aprendiendo la programacion traslape mucho con el pueblo que
| por lo menos conoce un poco de ingles. Asi, las palabras
| comunes como `print`, `if`, y `return` son muy faciles
| aprender.
|
| Yo estoy de acuerdo con tus comentarios sobre la
| fragmentacion; el problema que tengo yo con este idea de
| lenguajes de programacion en otras lenguas es que el
| vocabulario no es interoperable. Si una persona empieza aqui,
| esta empezando con una desventaja. Esta condenada a usar esta
| lenguaje - que quizas no sirve para la aplicacion deseada.
|
| Con todo esto, quiero decir que es una victoria cada novato
| que empieze aprender la programacion. Solo que el lenguaje en
| espanol puede ser una trampa - ya dijiste tu en como: por
| ejemplo, no se puede comunicar en StackOverflow para buscar
| ayuda.
|
| Mucho gusto comunicarme contigo, el espanol es una de mis
| lenguas pero no es la primaria. Saludos
| andredz wrote:
| Francamente, la principal barrera que he visto no es que los
| lenguajes de programacion esten en ingles sino que la gran
| mayoria de articulos tecnicos, libros, foros (HN), etc., lo
| estan.
|
| Para reducir esta barrera la mejor y mas facil solucion es
| aprender ingles. En la programacion normalmente hay que
| aprender muchos lenguajes, diria que aprender otro idioma
| (lenguaje natural) no es tan diferente y el haber tenido que
| hacerlo nos hace mejores programadores.
|
| Por otro lado, no creo que este mal aprender a programar
| usando lenguajes que luego no vayas a usar; asi que si Latino
| si facilita el aprendizaje para hispanohablantes, en
| comparacion a otros lenguajes usados en la educacion (Java,
| Python, JS), pero que estan en ingles, diria que no es un mal
| proyecto.
|
| Pero si por mi fuera, hubiera preferido aprender a programar,
| no con un lenguaje en espanol, sino con un Lisp (Scheme o
| Racket).
| jordigh wrote:
| Dime, ?podrias con facilidad memorizar unas 20-30 palabras
| claves en chino o en ruso? ?Crees que esto impediria el uso
| de un lenguaje de programacion?
| anthk wrote:
| No es comparable, el alfabeto ingles es un subconjunto
| del castellano.
| cpp_frog wrote:
| Leyendo el resto de los comentarios, sigo sin entender porque
| habria de ser mas dificil aprender de una manera u otra. Estoy
| de acuerdo con la idea de que sea estandar. En el peor de los
| casos (si fuera cierto que es mas dificil), los empleadores en
| LA (Latino America) lo tendrian en cuenta, pero a nadie le
| importa. Eso refuta toda la argumentacion.
| rkzswkr wrote:
| Pienso que tambien tiene mucho valor como herramienta de
| educacion mas que para usarse en la industria.
| second--shift wrote:
| Hola, saludos y gracias por tu comentario.
|
| Tienes razon que hay aplicacion en el sistema de educacion.
| Pero mi respuesta es esta: no seria mas eficiente hacer un
| tutorial de las palabras ingleses, y luego usar nombres
| espanoles para las variables y funciones?
| agubelu wrote:
| I don't dislike the idea but, as a Spanish speaker, my first
| impression reading the main page could be notably better:
|
| - Typos: "cabezera", "al rededor", lots of tildes missing in
| general
|
| - Google "translade" [sic] allowed - Why even ask for translators
| in the first place then?
|
| - Filler text still present ("esto de prueba")
| flobosg wrote:
| It seems that the author is not a native Spanish speaker, or at
| least not an idiomatic one.
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