[HN Gopher] Surface Laptop 4
___________________________________________________________________
Surface Laptop 4
Author : layer8
Score : 197 points
Date : 2021-04-13 18:06 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blogs.windows.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blogs.windows.com)
| Multicomp wrote:
| I just bought myself a laptop so while I was on the market, I'm
| out now, though I'm glad they mentioned the Surface Duo at the
| end of the page as part of their push for seamless multi-device
| coordination for productivity.
|
| I just hope its cousin the Surface Neo manages to see the light
| of day! Or maybe it will be the 2020s version of Microsoft
| Courier grrrr.
| jjjeii3 wrote:
| Oh great, Home and End buttons are located on the same keys as F8
| - F12... So basically you will not be able to use both at the
| same time with a single click. Microsoft learned from Apple how
| to decrease developer's productivity (Touchbar).
| Kaytaro wrote:
| I see Microsoft is fully embracing their boring reputation by
| announcing this in a blog post.
| ispaceman wrote:
| That video is missing voice of Jony Ive.
| ksec wrote:
| The video [1] has much more explanation.
|
| 3:2 screen ratio, I really wish the whole PC industry including
| Mac moves towards it. Even 16:10 is not enough when we
| increasingly clutter the vertical space with OS menus, controls,
| dock. And then Browsers address bar, tab bar, then we have the
| WebSite layout which is also taking vertical space at the top for
| navigation.
|
| 1.3mm Key Travel. Which is the same as the old perfect MacBook
| Scissors Keyboard. Instead Apple went to 1.0mm Key travel in
| their magic keyboard just to save face.
|
| _Sane_ size precision trackpad, no more absurdly large trackpad
| that has easy false positive when you are typing on it.
|
| Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow.
|
| Surface Connect - Is that Microsoft version of MagSafe?
|
| Larger sensor for better quality HD Video Call. They even compare
| it to MacBook Air 2020 LoL.
|
| I haven't looked at PC Laptop hardware for quite some time, but
| in mid 2010, Dell or HP's motherboard and Laptop layout just
| aren't anywhere near as good as Apple. But this Surface Laptop
| definitely took lots of clues from the old MacBook ( I am
| wondering if they have ex-Apple MacBook Engineers on their team
| ).
|
| Ignoring the Software, this Laptop looks exceptionally good!
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3N3u6NyWSY
| smoldesu wrote:
| I had a Surface Pro for a few years, it ran GNOME like a champ.
| These Windows laptops also have pretty good Linux support
| afaik, so the software issue isn't that big of a deal!
| withinboredom wrote:
| I remember those kernel patches fondly.
| ziml77 wrote:
| I actually feel cramped on 3:2. It's great if I maximize one
| window, but as soon as I try to split the width between two
| windows, everything is too narrow. It's especially bad when the
| windows are Firefox with Tree Style Tab and an IDE with a
| project navigation pane.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Wouldn't this depend on how the ratio is achieved?
|
| For example, with 16:9 - 16:10, you're often just gaining
| some vertical pixels (like 1920x1080 vs 1920x1200), so
| everything that was comfortable on 16:9 is equally workable
| on 16:10.
| ziml77 wrote:
| Yes it does depend on that, but usually there's some width
| lost for the gained height. You don't even need to measure
| it against another display to know that's the case. If you
| only add pixels to the top of a display, the diagonal size
| will increase. So if the display isn't any larger then it
| means that the horizontal size of the screen was reduced.
| That of course also means that each pixel is smaller.
| Depending on how much smaller, you might need to scale
| everything on the display up which has the same effect on
| fitting things in as having fewer pixels.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Yeah I've maximized my use of a wide screen. Dock on the side
| and tree style tabs is the way to go IMO.
| ansible wrote:
| > _Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair.
| Wow._
|
| I realize that making a replaceable battery is not easy this
| days, but I would like to see manufacturers at least not make
| it absurdly hard to replace. Here's hoping MS didn't use too
| much glue and tape to secure the battery in place on the
| Surface Laptop 4...
| nfoz wrote:
| In what sense is it "not easy these days"? The Panasonic
| "Let's Note" series (Japan only) has had models with two
| batteries -- one internal, and one removable (hot-swappable)
| that you could charge with USB while the laptop keeps running
| on the main battery. I'm not sure why our imagination for
| laptops is so limited.
| jolux wrote:
| Lenovo did that for a while. I believe they called it Power
| Bridge.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > 3:2 screen ratio, I really wish the whole PC industry
| including Mac moves towards it. Even 16:10 is not enough when
| we increasingly clutter the vertical space with OS menus,
| controls, dock. And then Browsers address bar, tab bar, then we
| have the WebSite layout which is also taking vertical space at
| the top for navigation.
|
| I hated the 16:9 popularity of computer flat screens.
| Definitely agree about needing lots of vertical space. I was
| content with 1600x1200 for years, and then 1920x1200 (1.6 vs
| 1.5 ratio) was available that was acceptable. Amazing how much
| smaller 1920x1080 felt, and is just a joke for anything other
| than watching videos (maybe games? i'm not a gamer) in my daily
| usage. Never tried one of those rotated 90, but it might be
| more useful as 9:16.
| pwthornton wrote:
| On the dock front, I recommend putting it on the left for a
| 16:10 display.
|
| I almost never use the dock on the bottom anymore. I find this
| a lot more useful, and it fits with the aspect ratio of the
| screens that are being shipped.
| addison-lee wrote:
| Best solution is to just have the dock hidden.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I've been playing with the option in macOS to hide the menu
| bar as well. The extra screen space is significant to me.
| The one draw back is that I have a habit of glancing up at
| the clock from time to time. Now, that's hidden, and I find
| myself totally losing track of time. Not such a big deal
| now for WFH, but I do spend more time on things than I
| would if the clock were still in view. Other than that, I
| don't miss the menu bar either.
| saboot wrote:
| > Replaceable SSD, Keyboard, and Monitor for easy repair. Wow.
|
| By far the biggest selling point for me! I wouldn't even
| consider apple products for this reason.
| rvz wrote:
| Exactly. At least Microsoft has courage.
|
| Unlike Apple who seems to like to solder everything onto the
| board, such that to fix the SSD would require an entirely new
| logic board and a trip to the Apple Store.
|
| That alone makes the Surface 4 'look' like a good deal, but
| at the price of $1000? No thanks and no deal (For now).
| swordsmith wrote:
| Compared to the pricetag of Macbooks, $1000 is a great
| deal, no?
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| The $999 Air will outperform this most likely. Build
| quality will be similar
| alien_ wrote:
| Yeah, the M1 will kill whatever CPU they'll put in this,
| I wish they had also an ARM version.
| klodolph wrote:
| It's super weird to see this phrased as "courage". I can
| understand the desiderata--"I want a user-servicable
| laptop" is entirely a reasonable position--but framing this
| narrative as "courageous" is bizarre. It's all a mix of
| branding and utility.
| dragontamer wrote:
| "Courage", as well as "A sense of pride and
| accomplishment" means different things now, because some
| presentations have given those words new life.
|
| In the case of "Courage", Apple branded their decision to
| remove the headphone jack as "courageous".
|
| "A sense of pride and accomplishment" is from the
| Battlefront video games, when marketers were talking
| about some features that either cost hundreds-of-dollars,
| or literally hundreds of hours of gameplay to unlock.
| unishark wrote:
| What is the new meaning of the word "courage" then? I
| presume it just means a decision other than the "safe"
| option. It's a bit melodramatic, perhaps, but not really
| a new definition. From an individual perspective, someone
| may have felt they were sticking their necks out and were
| in danger of hurting their career if the decision led to
| backlash and a reversal.
|
| (Talking about the audio jack change, no idea how making
| easy-to-maintenance parts is not the safe choice).
| [deleted]
| drusepth wrote:
| AFAIK, companies "having courage" has been a meme for a
| few years after Apple said it took great courage (or
| similar) to remove the headphone jack.
| CoolGuySteve wrote:
| If anything, Apple's environmental impact and their
| advertising around it is a staggeringly courageous amount
| of bullshit considering how hard they make it to service,
| upgrade, and repurpose old devices.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I use my Apple devices for a substantially longer time
| than the alternative, so I would say I've probably
| consumed less.
| unishark wrote:
| They generally have a much better resale value compared
| to other brands too. People are still buying old macs on
| ebay.
| edaemon wrote:
| I'm pretty sure they're referencing Apple saying it took
| "courage" to remove the iPhone's headphone jack.
| ValentineC wrote:
| > _At least Microsoft has courage._
|
| I see what you did there:
| https://www.theverge.com/2016/9/7/12838024/apple-
| iphone-7-pl...
| bsd44 wrote:
| Soldering "everything" is not specific to Apple.
| NetOpWibby wrote:
| But boy, the crowd here loves to harp on it though.
| wil421 wrote:
| Really hoping that Jony Ive leaving will have a positive
| impact in regards to serviceability. Hopefully the blowback
| for their obsession with thinness was due to Ive.
| NotPractical wrote:
| Is the battery replaceable, though? The Surface Laptop 3 also
| had some repairable parts, but the big disappointment in my
| mind was the glued-in battery.[1] Batteries are consumable
| and are guaranteed to start wearing down within a few years,
| whereas the SSD, keyboard, monitor, etc. are likely to last a
| long time, so it was surprising that they advertised its
| repairability even with this significant omission.
|
| I feel weird using my MacBook Pro, knowing it's essentially a
| ticking time bomb, with its slowly degrading battery that
| can't be replaced.
|
| [1] https://www.ifixit.com/Teardown/Microsoft+Surface+Laptop+
| 3+(...
| penagwin wrote:
| I worked in computer/phone repair and a bit of design,
|
| You can see [1] that they are using multiple cells
| essentially taped together to make their "battery". This
| isn't uncommon, especially recently in smaller devices, as
| it lets them fit unusual shapes and other size issues, and
| saves space because you don't need a shell around them. The
| biggest (only?) issue is that you have a very delicate
| batteries taped together, if ripped/torn they may explode.
| To add to this, because they aren't riggedly attached, they
| are more prone to movement (and thus tearing). Their
| solution was to use adhesive across the bottom to make sure
| they are all firmly in place [0].
|
| From a repair perspective this isn't great. It's not hard
| to remove if you have a heated plate, isopropyl, and
| patience, but not very user friendly. The best thing they
| could do to fix this would be to give the battery a rigid
| enclosure, but that will of course eat up valuable space,
| and I have no idea how that would affect the rest of their
| design. They could also use different tape that's easier to
| remove, but they may see the taped-together battery as
| something they don't want to be liable for people replacing
| (in case they tear it), so I really think the best solution
| is a rigid shell for the batteries.
|
| tldr; This appears to mostly be a design limitation instead
| of a purposeful decision. I wish they'd change their design
| instead though....
|
| [0] https://guide-
| images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/FkZHQOAv2sPqKSBE.med...
|
| [1] https://guide-
| images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/VJBBLeHLWsRBQeIS.med...
| [deleted]
| IAmEveryone wrote:
| Yes, of course it's a design Limitation or, as I'd call
| it, trade-off. A very few conspiracy theorists may belief
| it's "planned obsolescence". But a model that just places
| a larger premium on thinness than HN professes to do is
| far better at explaining this and a number of similar
| decisions by all sorts of companies.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| We have had countless corporate conspiracies for hundreds
| of years, from the Standard Oil collusion with railroads
| to remove competing oil companies, Automanufactureres
| conspiracy to remove streetcard, The Phoebus cartel
| limiting lightbulb longevity and FAANG anti-poaching
| agreement designed to depress developer salaries.
|
| What the hell has to happen for you to realize
| corporations are not your friends and 'mah free market'
| becomes mafia without law enforcement.
| jasonfarnon wrote:
| It could be that apple places a greater premium on
| thinness and that position just so happens to have as a
| byproduct early obsolescence and better profits. But I
| don't see why that's any more plausible than what you
| call conspiracy theories.
| johncessna wrote:
| > Surface Connect - Is that Microsoft version of MagSafe?
|
| Basically. I was disappointed to see it on my 2nd or 3rd
| generation. I thought we were past the days of proprietary
| connectors.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| They kept this one for a few generations now/across a few
| models.
|
| I wish they made it open.
| dygd wrote:
| The video mentions that the Surface 4 USB-C port allows
| charging, which is great.
| orev wrote:
| The Surface connector is fine, and has the added benefit of
| being magnetic, unlike any other connector available. For
| basic charging it's very easy to get a USBC to Surface
| Connect cable, or if you really want you can use the USBC
| port directly for charging. The magnetics really make a
| difference in portability and I would not want to give it up.
| ziml77 wrote:
| A bad proprietary connector at that. The device side has
| failed on me a few times, requiring replacements. After about
| a year the connector needs to be pulled at just the right
| angle to charge the device. It would slowly get worse until I
| couldn't get it to make a connection at all.
|
| I'm sure the issue is that I have it plugged in while it's on
| my lap a lot of the time, but barrel plugs and USB-C have not
| given me any issues under the same conditions.
| withinboredom wrote:
| Just wipe it down with a bit of alcohol (while unplugged
| from the wall of course). I've found the connector tends to
| wear from "sparking" when connecting and disconnecting and
| gets a thin layer of carbon on it.
| nailer wrote:
| > Ignoring the Software, this Laptop looks exceptionally good!
|
| Paying attention to the software, WSL2 is one of the most
| convenient ways to run nix. No more messing with homebrew, you
| get real apt-get (and the breadth of packages and speed of
| updates that come from running real Ubuntu or Debian) or
| whatever else you want.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I really need to read up more on WSL2, but I'm on a windows
| box so rarely I haven't spent the cycles on it. However,
| every single time I am on a windows box, I really wish I had
| it setup for WSL2. Every other box I connect to has
| essentially the same CLI features, until those rare times I
| hit a windows box. <shudder>
| bosswipe wrote:
| Laptop vertical space is why I always setup my docks on the
| left or right. And one of the reasons I still use Firefox Tree
| Style Tab even though Mozilla keeps making it harder and harder
| to use.
| robertoandred wrote:
| 3:2 and 16:10 are very very close.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| 3:2 is 15:10. It's a pretty big deal, almost as big as going
| from 16:9 to 16:10
|
| More vertical space is a win in my book.
| derekp7 wrote:
| Is it giving more vertical space, or taking away horizontal
| space? A 16:9 screen would be fine if it had the same
| vertical resolution as the 3:2 screens. In that case you
| work off the center of the screen and put various gadget
| items to either side. Or for the larger screen laptops that
| include a number keypad, put your workspace on the left 80%
| and things like your Slack / chat and email notifications
| on the right side.
|
| Actually come to think of it, a perfect window manager
| would be something that allows for overlapping windows in
| the central region, and lets you have adjustable left/right
| regions as tiling window areas. Combined with something
| that can tell an application which region it is in, so it
| can adjust the interface (optionally) to fit that region's
| purpose and limitations.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| If only they hadn't done away with 4:3:
| >>> 4/3 1.3333333333333333 >>> 3/2
| 1.5 >>> 16/10 1.6
| >>> 16/9 1.7777777777777777
|
| I use an external portrait monitor for this reason, and it
| is quite luxurious. So much less scrolling.
|
| Also, if one is complaining about the dock, move it to the
| side.
| cheschire wrote:
| I (literally) went the opposite direction with a 32:9
| monitor. I guess everyone's got their preferences!
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| If big enough and hi-res enough, it could be doable.
|
| Also if you often do multiple things at once.
|
| I find most of the time, I'm looking at one or two long
| documents (web page, source code) and running shells on
| my landscape laptop monitor so the combo works perfectly
| for me.
| cheschire wrote:
| I'm usually gaming (immersion is better in superwide) or
| I'm writing code (more real estate for uncollapsed visual
| studio windows) or browsing the web with netflix etc
| snapped to the side.
|
| However I must note that superwide monitors are
| absolutely unusable in windows without PowerToys
| FancyZones functionality.
| robertoandred wrote:
| 3:2 is 16:10.667
| 015a wrote:
| > Surface Connect - Is that Microsoft version of MagSafe?
|
| Yes & No; its Microsoft's proprietary version of Thunderbolt 3,
| which does have magnetic connect/disconnect.
| beaner wrote:
| All of these things are nice, but they're easier to throw in
| than improving the operating system, and that's the biggest
| differentiator.
| usaphp wrote:
| > no more absurdly large trackpad that has easy false positive
| when you are typing on it.
|
| What are you doing to get those? I've never had issues with
| that, and I absolutely love the large trackpad on my MacBook
| ngokevin wrote:
| Yeah, I love it as well. Zero false positives ever. If
| there's one thing Apple does right, it's a killer trackpad.
| andrepew wrote:
| Really disappointed they shortchanged Ryzen by not using it on
| the flagship configuration despite it being the better product
| right now.
| mfer wrote:
| Reading that immediately reminded med of https://frame.work. I
| kinda want a laptop that I can mess with. I realize it's not for
| everyone.
| nrp wrote:
| We use the same panel dimensions and resolutions as the 13.5"
| Surface Laptop and the same Tiger Lake CPUs. Beyond that
| though, we have 1.5mm key travel vs 1.3mm on the Surface
| Laptop, four configurable ports supporting USB 4 instead of one
| each of USB-C and USB-A, FHD webcam instead of HD, memory
| upgradeable to 64GB, storage upgradeable to 4TB, and a design
| that is open for end customer repairs (rather than "authorized
| service centers").
| varispeed wrote:
| This is a great idea, but Intel is a deal breaker.
| systemvoltage wrote:
| Everytime I want to use my macbook, the cold metal isn't very
| inviting. Especially if I want to lay it on the lap with shorts
| on. It is always cold as hell.
|
| Compare this with Thinkpad's soft-touch coated magnesium chassis
| - almost as sturdy but feels so inviting.
|
| People get woo'ed by something made of metal. Yeah, its nice from
| an engineering standpoint but it is not the "best industrial
| design" just because its made of metal. IMO, best design is the
| one that is more human centric than marketing bullshit and luxury
| quality cliches.
|
| I really think Thinkpad X1 series is the best laptop ever in
| terms of its industrial design (not OS, display quality etc).
| Keyboard is so incredible.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Surface metal isn't aluminium it's a "magnesium, PVD finish".
| Feels more like stone to the touch than metal and doesn't seem
| to get as cold as macbooks can.
| 650REDHAIR wrote:
| Yeah, I have the opposite feeling.
|
| My 2020 MBP is so hot I hate using it on my lap.
|
| I have an X1 Carbon 7th Gen that I've been using as a laptop
| pad for my MBP the last few months... MacOS is just so much
| more convenient.
| cush wrote:
| And the M1 macs are freezing cold now. Can't Apple find a
| happy medium for my exposed thighs?
| hajile wrote:
| You need the M1 macbook air with a thermal mod then. It
| connects the chassis to the heatsink. The entire bottom
| gets warm and the area around the heatsink can get up to
| 50-55C. On the plus side, with the thermal mod, it doesn't
| really throttle at all, so on longer workloads it performs
| about the same as the pro.
| mhb wrote:
| The X1 display and sound are definitely a big improvement over
| the x220, but the trackpoint is terrible (drifts all the time)
| and the keyboard is a big step down. Both sacrificed at the
| altar of thinness.
| clircle wrote:
| I've noticed this too. The trackpoint on my X220 is
| excellent, but something about about the later notebooks
| feels very wrong. For example, I'm using a T460, and the
| trackpoint is always drifting, and can't be calibrated to the
| right sensitivity.
| smoldesu wrote:
| The X1 is awesome, but Thinkpad T-series had it _down_ in the
| 2010s. The T440p, the T460s, the T420, and so many other
| legendary laptops were born from that line.
|
| As a side note, it's a shame they never made any "true"
| successors to the x230s, I'd love to see them made with today's
| technology.
| hcurtiss wrote:
| Presently over two years into the T480s. I love this machine
| and have no intention of upgrading any time soon.
| outworlder wrote:
| > Everytime I want to use my macbook, the cold metal isn't very
| inviting.
|
| You could apply some skins.
|
| I actually like the heat dissipation the metal provides.
| [deleted]
| Shadonototro wrote:
| Good looking laptop with good hardware, but the OS? no thanks
| robertlf wrote:
| I agree. I'll never buy any hardware that runs Windoze.
| ValentineC wrote:
| Does anyone have experience with their cheaper Alcantara fabric
| finish?
| mkl wrote:
| I have a 5-year-old keyboard/cover with this for my Surface Pro
| 4. It has discoloured a bit in that time, but is otherwise
| undamaged.
| pdimitar wrote:
| This looks great, don't get me wrong, but after so many problems
| with a Surface Book I completely lost faith in Microsoft's will
| to make solid laptops.
|
| I'll definitely look for reviews of this unit because it really
| does look great (including ability to repair and replace
| components). But I'll be carefully optimistic for now.
| gavin_gee wrote:
| LOL, Apple announces its event: windows launch team: "shit post
| the blog post now!"
| sxiao wrote:
| Do Surface Laptops have a healthy battery charging feature? E.g.,
| does charging stop at a specific threshold like 60% with Lenovos?
| mkl wrote:
| Yes: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/battery-limit
|
| I use it with my Surface Pro 4.
| legitster wrote:
| Once I was given a Surface Pro as a work computer. The hardware
| was okay, but I prayed for the sweet release of a hinge. That
| thing was a usability disaster.
|
| I am so thankful Microsoft is being rewarded for making quality,
| sensible devices.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| Have been waiting for this as looking to replace my MacBook to
| get away from some of Apple's recent changes and hopefully get
| nvidia support as well. But this is disappointing:
|
| - seemingly last generation AMD (4000 series) when there are 5000
| series laptops starting to ship from other vendors
|
| - only option with 32G RAM is Intel and black?!
|
| - seems like no option for discrete graphics at all
| varispeed wrote:
| Why do they still bother installing Intel? I am in the market for
| a new laptop, but I simply cannot buy a reheated vintage CPU that
| likes to spin fans loudly. Then the Ryzen one is old as well. Why
| not a new gen? Why not trying ARM like Apple did?
| Wohlf wrote:
| >Why do they still bother installing Intel?
|
| Because despite getting clobbered on desktop, Intel is still
| competitive in laptops and produces more than AMD can.
|
| >Then the Ryzen one is old as well. Why not a new gen?
|
| Because there's not enough supply.
|
| >Why not trying ARM like Apple did?
|
| Because people use Microsoft for backwards compatibility. They
| tried it before with Windows RT, and it was a flop.
| varispeed wrote:
| These are sane points. However, given the circumstances I
| don't understand why releasing a new product when it already
| feels few years old at launch. Just to keep themselves busy?
| Keep practicing releases? Maybe they could have channelled
| that energy towards beating Apple instead...
| Wohlf wrote:
| That I can't answer. My guess is it's to meet some sort of
| contract they have together, like Microsoft sells laptops
| with AMD processors and gets a better deal on Xbox
| components. The AMD SKUs seem to top out at 16GB of RAM and
| smaller SSDs, which signals to me MS doesn't expect to sell
| as many.
| bogidon wrote:
| They do have a Surface Pro X with their ARM "SQ" chips which
| they work with Qualcomm to make. It's nowhere near as good
| compared to the M1 according to the layperson's benchmarks I've
| seen though.
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-pro-x/8qg3bmrhnwhk
| stakkur wrote:
| Microsoft gets a lot of things right about hardware--but in the
| end, this is a Microsoft device, built to run Microsoft Windows,
| Microsoft software, and collect the living shit out of as much
| data about you as possible.
| netflixandkill wrote:
| Had surface pro 4, also nice hardware, decide it was going to
| update Windows _right now_ 30 minutes into a trans-pacific
| plane flight even though every knob for updates was set to
| manual only.
|
| Took almost all of the 14 hours over airplane wifi in which I
| could not work at all.
|
| Gave it away to charity the day after I landed. Its sister unit
| a coworker had bricked itself about two years later.
| murermader wrote:
| The worst device I have ever owned was a Microsoft Surface Pro
| 6. Most problems with the hardware, like the keyboard not being
| recognized half the time, or the touchpad randomly ignoring my
| inputs.
|
| Would not recommend to anyone. A friend of mine has a Surface
| Book, and he has just as many problems as I had, but with the
| Surface Books most problems are with the GPU in combination
| with the bad drivers and horrible external display support.
| FearlessNebula wrote:
| If the surface laptop played nice with Linux it would be a
| viable competitor to the X1 Carbon or Dell XPS
| bentcorner wrote:
| I don't know how long it takes to add new devices to this
| list but I imagine at some point you'll see the SL4 here:
|
| https://github.com/linux-surface/linux-
| surface/wiki/Supporte...
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| Run Linux on it, then you get great software (especially if
| you're a developer) and great hardware, minimal spying
| schnebbau wrote:
| But still uses a garbage top-hinged trackpad.
|
| Lenovo has finally started implementing haptic trackpads like
| Macbooks have had for almost a decade, so I'll keep my fingers
| crossed for the Surface Laptop 5.
| baybal2 wrote:
| > Surface Laptop consistently hold the highest customer
| satisfaction rating in its class
|
| I'm amazed that driver troubles chase Microsoft even on their own
| designed hardware.
|
| https://www.google.com/search?q=surface+laptop+bricked
|
| The last surface book bricking was borderline tragicomedic.
|
| Microsoft has managed to brick on record:
|
| Surface 1
|
| Book 2
|
| Pro 3
|
| Pro 6
| tedsanders wrote:
| In addition, the Surface Pro 2 had a firmware issue for months
| after launch that caused it to get very hot, potentially
| damaging the battery. I was a very unsatisfied customer,
| personally.
| kpozin wrote:
| On my Surface Pro 7:
|
| * The Win10 "Night light" feature became unavailable about half
| a year after I bought the device. Had to go back to using
| f.lux. (Meanwhile, on my 2012 ThinkPad with an old NVS5400M
| graphics card, Night light works just fine.)
|
| * The front camera would regularly get stuck in a bad state,
| with the light and IR illuminator turned on but camera
| unavailable, until a reboot. A recent driver update seems to
| have mitigated the bug; now the camera just reports an error
| until I reboot, but at least the lights don't stay on.
|
| * There's no S3 Standby state. Either the computer stays on in
| "Connected S0", with sounds playing, radios on, snagging my
| Bluetooth headphones' connection, or I can put it into
| Hibernate, burning through 16 GB of the SSD's TBW every time.
| Lorin wrote:
| Kept good care of my Surface Pro 6 - wireless/bt chip got
| damaged somehow and now it won't even recognize it has those
| capabilities most of the time. Otherwise was a fantastic
| experience.
| flowerlad wrote:
| Screen resolution is only 2256 x 1504.
|
| My 5 year old laptop has 3200 x 1800 and it looks like nobody
| makes this resolution any more.
|
| My laptop is a Samsung ATIV Book 9 [1]. It is getting old and I
| will have to replace it soon, and sadly no one is making an
| awesome laptop this good any more, not even Samsung. The display,
| the backlit keyboard, the general build quality, and the
| industrial design is better than even MacBooks.
|
| [1] https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/windows-
| laptops/noteboo...
| ziml77 wrote:
| I'm actually happy to see that resolution. Usually the only
| resolutions you can find end up giving a pixel density of
| 143ppi or 286ppi. 143ppi doesn't look great while 286ppi looks
| excellent but comes with a large penalty to battery life with
| the extra power needed to drive the display.
|
| Microsoft picked the lower side of the middle-ground with
| 201ppi. I'd obviously have to see it to be certain, but I'd
| expect it to not be perceptibly worse than the ~226ppi that
| Apple uses on their laptops.
|
| This lack of middle-ground options was actually something that
| frustrated me last year when I was buying a laptop. It was one
| of the big motivators for me picking up a MacBook Pro instead
| of going with another Windows machine.
| bob1029 wrote:
| I'll be skipping this and future MS hardware for a while.
|
| Using a Surface Laptop 3 right now and everything except for the
| display is pretty much a dumpster fire. The display _hardware_ is
| incredible in every way. 3:2 is the correct aspect ratio for
| laptops if you care about running visual studio or other apps
| which gobble up vertical real estate.
|
| I have reloaded this thing from official image 3x and it will
| still randomly fuck up important things like hardware accelerated
| video playback and WiFi, both of which require a hard reset to
| resolve. There is also some really annoying bullshit with the
| ambient brightness adjustment feature where I have to manually
| disable it in the registry every time a driver or windows update
| hits.
|
| The most painful problem with the machine is that WiFi is
| entirely unusable if you are simultaneously using bluetooth. I
| have had to get external dongles to resolve this.
|
| All of that said, I have had few-to-no issues with the Surface
| Pro product line at work, and my sample size is 1. Might be bad
| luck or just really demanding expectations. I have been debating
| going back to Apple, but there are some HP/Asus machines that
| look compelling now.
| programmertote wrote:
| I don't own a Surface laptop, but my sister bought a Surface
| Pro (2 or 3, I'm not sure) a couple of years ago. She has
| already replaced the original charging adapters twice. The
| batteries also don't work unless they are plugged in. I think
| she also complains about wifi connectivity issues.
|
| I thought Surface devices are built well, but after seeing my
| sister struggle with her Surface Pro, I have decided to not
| take the risk.
| helipad wrote:
| As a counter point, I love my Surface Laptop 3 as my personal
| device.
|
| I had a pre-M1 MacBook Air for when I'm not working and I hated
| its fans constantly whirring and the industrial design that
| hadn't been updated in years.
|
| I dived deep into different Windows laptops having spent 10+
| years away and been really pleased with the purchase. The
| design is very simple, aspect ratio great, and the keyboard
| better than the Mac I was transitioning from.
|
| I didn't like the Dell XPS's keyboard or display, and I tried
| the Razer Blade Stealth 13 but it was overkill.
|
| Having not really used Windows for years and given that lots of
| Windows laptops still had shockingly cheap industrial design or
| weird quirks (webcam at the bottom?!), the Surface Laptop 3 was
| unfussy and a delight to use.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > or weird quirks (webcam at the bottom?!),
|
| whoa!! what? i can't believe that someone did that, but then,
| yes I can. i guess that's useful if you have to look at the
| keyboard while typing. in that case, the bottom based cam is
| just a glance up???
| outworlder wrote:
| Dell XPS has (or had, not checked) the covid-test-webcam.
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| Yeah, the Surface Laptop 3 was on the list of my considerations
| a couple months ago because it checked most of my boxes, but
| reports of odd problems (like those you've mentioned) along
| with a common hairline screen crack problem pushed me to buy a
| ThinkPad instead.
| wobblykiwi wrote:
| >hardware accelerated video playback
|
| Is this the same issue that I'm having where video and audio
| become increasingly out of sync as playback continues?
| bob1029 wrote:
| I have only noticed sync issues on a few live streams. Never
| on any local media.
|
| My issue is that the video is completely black (or green in
| VLC). Disabling hardware acceleration resolves, but then it
| runs like garbage and cant resize with high quality
| interpolation.
| archsurface wrote:
| I'm running Arch on mine, 2.5 years old, everything works fine,
| and I love it. I get dells at work, and also have a mbp, but no
| contest - surface laptop 3 is the bar for me.
| paulpan wrote:
| Likewise I've wanted one for a long time but at this rate will
| probably never come to pass. One reason are the reportedly
| weird but very persistent bugs as OP mentioned.
|
| Bigger reason is uncertainty about the Windows platform.
| ChromeOS and macOS both run mobile apps, which bring a vast
| library and a level of integration (especially macOS + iOS)
| that seems increasingly hard to overlook. Add to this
| Microsoft's goal of switching to ARM and fragmenting its
| ecosystem, it becomes an even harder buy.
|
| In general, the Surface lineup seems to be ~1 year behind in
| hardware compared to the rest of the industry, e.g. only now
| switching to TigerLake and Ryzen 4000 series CPU. Hardware
| itself is well packaged but a hard sell for its premium price.
| Furthermore Microsoft is delusional to sell RAM and SSD
| upgrades from 8GB to 16GB and 256GB to 512GB respectively for
| +$200.
| pitterpatter wrote:
| > Bigger reason is uncertainty about the Windows platform.
|
| Of all platforms to be worried about, I feel like Windows is
| the last one here (Web aside perhaps). It wouldn't be
| unreasonable to try running a program from Windows XP era and
| have it run fine in Windows 10.
|
| As for the ARM fragmentation, fair enough but doesn't macOS
| face the same challenge? Windows 10 on Arm also supports
| running x86 apps without recompiling too.
| varispeed wrote:
| > The most painful problem with the machine is that WiFi is
| entirely unusable if you are simultaneously using bluetooth.
|
| Wouldn't that be a problem of Windows itself? For me bluetooth
| has been a mess on every Windows machine. It's a miracle if
| something works and to get something working you even need to
| buy a dongle with a specific chip on it...
| Stratoscope wrote:
| Bluetooth and Wi-Fi work together with no issues on my
| ThinkPad X1 Extreme. I'm using Wi-Fi on 5GHz. Haven't tried
| it on 2.4GHz; I imagine there could be more potential for
| interference there.
|
| I mostly use Bluetooth with Apple AirPods. I tried running
| Ubuntu on the ThinkPad but it had the same problem I've seen
| on other Linux machines: the AirPods would only pair as
| headphones, not as a full headset with microphone.
|
| I like Windows better anyway on the hardware, especially its
| support for different scaling factors on multiple monitors.
| So I run Linux in a VM or use WSL2.
| vel0city wrote:
| When you have good Bluetooth hardware, modern Windows
| versions seem to be pretty good with Bluetooth. Playing back
| on Bluetooth speakers or having Bluetooth mice or game pads
| seems to work pretty well. The most frustrating part is the
| issue of switching between Headset Profile and A2DP with
| bluetooth headsets. That always seems like a nightmare and
| prone to lots of frustrations.
|
| I've definitely experienced what a bad Bluetooth adapter on
| Windows is like though. Things just failing to pair for no
| apparent reason, things randomly disconnecting, the thing
| seeming to forget all previous pairings, etc. I think that's
| usually been due to poor drivers. Earlier versions of Windows
| didn't really have much Bluetooth support out of the box,
| most of the stuff seemed to be implemented by each hardware
| vendor at the time. Compatibility issues were so common. This
| has largely seemed to go away especially when using modern
| Intel WiFi/BT chips and modern Windows.
| neogodless wrote:
| I had one Asus laptop that required me to occasionally toggle
| Bluetooth off and on again to reconnect my mouse. The rest of
| my laptops and my desktop's USB Bluetooth dongle have worked
| without issue for my mice and headphones. I don't think it's
| a common issue, but I'm just one person!
| davidwparker wrote:
| Anecdote here, but I'm on a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Extreme, and
| I've never had any issues with the Bluetooth (or WiFi), or
| either, simultaneously.
| motiejus wrote:
| Is there a non-video technical description? Specs and connector
| placement pictures. :)
| [deleted]
| layer8 wrote:
| Here you go: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-
| laptop-4/946627fb1...
| nfoz wrote:
| - 1 x USB-C
|
| - 1 x USB-A
|
| - 3.5 mm headphone jack
|
| - 1 x Surface Connect port
|
| So I guess this is their "Macbook Air" equivalent?
|
| It's funny to compare with something like
| https://us.vaio.com/collections/vaio-sx14 which is still very
| thin. I guess the main trade-off is battery life.
| zmmmmm wrote:
| No dedicated video port? If the USB-C has to be occupied by
| a monitor connection (assume I don't want to carry surface
| connect thingy everywhere) then this thing basically offers
| a single port based on dated technology. Such an odd
| decision.
| pitaj wrote:
| Generally people use a USB-C "dock" which has networking,
| display, and extra USB ports.
| jazzyjackson wrote:
| Yeah I miss the vaio philosophy, but I'll at least give
| props to microsoft for having an awesome power-dock that
| gives me 4x USB-A, 2x mini display port, ethernet + line-
| out. Really enjoyed clipping the magnetic power cable on
| and booting into my desktop. Have had an alienware last
| couple of years and if I wanted a dock I think I'd be
| looking at their eGPU and that's still 2 cables.
| satysin wrote:
| No 1TB SSD or 32GB RAM models with Ryzen is a damn shame.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| 32gb RAM ... meh it actually consumes a lot of power. This is a
| thin and small laptop. But I agree about the 1tb SSD.
| legohead wrote:
| wont disk swapping use more power than extra RAM?
| texasbigdata wrote:
| Just Remote Desktop into a virtual machine with sufficient RAM
| to run Google Chrome for your elitist web browsing jeez :)
| k__ wrote:
| lol, the main reason I need a laptop with much memory IS
| Chrome.
| texasbigdata wrote:
| That was the joke :( haha sorry
| layer8 wrote:
| Also, the Ryzen APUs (custom model numbers 4680U/4980U) are
| unfortunately still Zen 2.
| rvz wrote:
| Well you really need to feed those Electron apps you're using
| don't you? Since they primarily feast on tons of RAM and disk
| space.
|
| At 'least' the SSD is replaceable, so you can upgrade the space
| after you bought it. Unlike the M1 Macbook Air that has
| everything soldered.
| believeinskills wrote:
| So much insecurity in your comment
| mikl wrote:
| Quite cheeky to have their video featuring a laptop that looks
| like an alternate-reality version of the MacBook end with the
| tagline "Original by Design".
|
| Brushed aluminium unibody, polished company logo in the middle,
| "MagSafe". You should think there were other possible ways to
| design a laptop.
|
| But other than that, looks like a pretty great machine. Lets hope
| it runs Linux.
| rw2 wrote:
| I was looking for this comment, this is pretty much a copy of
| the MacBook 3 years back.
|
| Although I am happy they are doing this since no one else is
| bringing a high quality metal laptop with the same "feel" that
| you would get from a Macbook aluminum Unibody laptop.
|
| The best windows laptop before was a Macbook running bootcamp.
| Graffur wrote:
| Built for MS Teams .. closed it after I saw that
| rubyist5eva wrote:
| No 32gb memory configuration is a deal breaker for me. Maybe next
| time.
| mey wrote:
| Take a closer look, you can get 32gb in both the 13" and 15"
| models. Unfortunately only with the Intel CPU.
| w-m wrote:
| The AMD versions are much cheaper, and have longer battery life:
|
| https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-laptop-4/946627fb1...
| Up to 19 hours of battery life on 13.5" with AMD Ryzen(tm)
| Microsoft Surface(r) Edition processor Up to 17 hours of
| battery life on 13.5" with Intel(r) Core(tm) processor
| Up to 17.5 hours of battery life on 15" with AMD Ryzen(tm)
| Microsoft Surface(r) Edition processor Up to 16.5 hours
| of battery life on 15" with Intel(r) Core(tm) processor
|
| The 13" AMD version only seems to be available with 16GB RAM and
| 256 GB storage, while the Intel versions go up to 32 GB and 1 TB.
| iamcreasy wrote:
| Does any know how they are getting this numbers when it took
| Apple to move to a different architecture to improve the
| battery life?
| neogodless wrote:
| From the footnotes
|
| > Up to 19 hours of battery life based on typical Surface
| device usage. Testing conducted by Microsoft in February 2021
| using preproduction software and preproduction 13.5" AMD
| Ryzen(tm) 5 Microsoft Surface(r) Edition processor, 8GB RAM
| device. Testing consisted of full battery discharge with a
| mixture of active use and modern standby. The active use
| portion consists of (1) a web browsing test accessing 8
| popular websites over multiple open tabs, (2) a productivity
| test utilizing Microsoft Word, PowerPoint, Excel and Outlook,
| and (3) a portion of time with the device in use with idle
| applications. All settings were default except screen
| brightness was set to 150nits with Auto-Brightness disabled.
| Wi-Fi was connected to a network.
|
| I think the key in there is "modern standby." What is the
| ratio of standby to active use? That and 150nits brightness,
| though that is common for a lot of battery tests. (I
| personally like 250-300 even indoors.)
| vesinisa wrote:
| Why is the AMD version limited to "just" 16 GB of RAM? That's
| sadly not enough for modern development environments.
| jackTheMan wrote:
| Yes this quite outrageous, probably intel is paying to have
| the "highest" configuration sadly. And this 16G is also
| soldered, so cannot be replaced afterwards...
| distances wrote:
| Seems like a deal with Intel to carve out some reason to buy
| an Intel model. AMDs are much faster, cheaper and consume
| less power, so the conspiratorial explanation is that Intel
| bought the high-spec exclusivity. It's been the same with
| other laptop manufacturers too.
| ThatMedicIsASpy wrote:
| Yeah some configs only allow you to get 3080 GPUs on mobile
| with intel. That doesn't mean there aren't any with AMD
| though
| flixic wrote:
| 19 hours on 47.4WH battery and x86 CPU seems incredible. Almost
| unbelievable.
|
| M1 Macbook Air has larger, 49.9WH battery, and only boasts 18
| hours as maximum battery life.
| mrkstu wrote:
| As I first saw noted on an Ars comment, it is unbelievable
| because their testing regimen has no reflection with real
| world testing, and I'm sure significantly different than
| Apple's, which I believe doesn't include 'standby' testing
| included in usage:
|
| "Testing consisted of full battery discharge with a mixture
| of active use and modern standby. The active use portion
| consists of (1) a web browsing test accessing 8 popular
| websites over multiple open tabs, (2) a productivity test
| utilizing Microsoft Word, PowerPoint, Excel and Outlook, and
| (3) a portion of time with the device in use with idle
| applications. All settings were default except screen
| brightness was set to 150nits with Auto-Brightness disabled.
| Wi-Fi was connected to a network. Battery life varies
| significantly with settings, usage and other factors."
|
| [0]https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/surface-
| laptop-4/946627fb1...
| jackTheMan wrote:
| Haven't checked, but screen resolution might helps to
| explain.
| twobitshifter wrote:
| Windows laptops usually overstate battery life, we'll have to
| see if it's reproducible.
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > The 13" AMD version only seems to be available with 16GB RAM
| and 256 GB storage, while the Intel versions go up to 32 GB and
| 1 TB.
|
| For the 15" you can only get 16 GB ram too, but the ssd goes up
| to 512 GB.
| kvark wrote:
| It puzzles me why there are no Ryzen 5000 variants in this
| list. Microsoft used to collaborate with AMD tightly in recent
| years.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| I think they're on a tight squeeze right now at the fabs.
| satysin wrote:
| If the past Surface Laptop's are to be our reference then
| expect 30% less than the numbers stated by Microsoft.
| ianai wrote:
| So over 12 hours of battery life for the 15" sounds right?
| xiphias2 wrote:
| It's the same for Apple M1 Macbook Pro after I set it to the
| maximum 500 nits outside, but for the Surface Laptop they
| don't specify the maximum diplay brightness.
| scarecrowboat wrote:
| I'd still expect the AMD version to have better battery life
| because the numbers are probably 30% lower across the board
| right?
| Topgamer7 wrote:
| Isn't that pretty much SOP for most laptop battery duration
| marketing?
| satysin wrote:
| Microsoft seem to be exaggerate more than Dell, HP, Lenovo
| and Apple in my experience.
|
| Shockingly with the M1 Apple's battery life claims were
| quite conservative. I have been able to get an hour longer
| than Apple's claims without having to resort to any extreme
| measures.
| dimitrios1 wrote:
| Just my tidbit, as a salty owner: The battery life on the
| 13' MBP is poor, and does not come close to what is
| advertised with any sort of moderate use (email, chat,
| couple browser tabs).
| kitsunesoba wrote:
| If you have any electron apps that are still running
| through Rosetta (seems possible with chat apps), those
| are known to chew through battery like crazy. It may be
| worth keeping those in a browser tab until they get ARM
| native builds.
| satysin wrote:
| The M1 MBP? That is what I am using (1TB/16GB model) and
| I easily get the 17 hours stated for web use. Even doing
| development in Xcode I can go 13-15 hours. It is the most
| impressed I have been with a laptop since the
| introduction of multi-core mobile CPUs.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| What display brightness are you using? When I bought my
| M1 MBP it had a setting that made the display darker when
| I am not plugging it, but in reality when I'm outside on
| the sun, that's when I really need it to be bright.
| Still, even if I get 10-14 hours, I love it (also the
| fact that I can use 1 charger for almost all of my
| devices).
| satysin wrote:
| I am usually around 50-60%. I don't work outside though
| so never need to crank it up. I find it automatically
| adjusts it fine.
| smoldesu wrote:
| My M1 Air tends to get 7-8 hours of "real world" use
| (when configured with all of the programs I have on my
| Thinkpad). Considering that my Thinkpad gets 5-6 hours,
| with a better screen/GPU/keyboard to boot, I don't reach
| for the Macbook as often as I'd like. Especially when I'm
| doing real work.
| satysin wrote:
| Interesting. What is "real world use" for you?
|
| I bought my daughter an M1 Air for Christmas, she is a
| university student that mostly does written work in Word,
| research (so mostly web and PDF stuff) and obviously
| video conferences right now. She has no trouble getting
| 13-15 hours of uni work done (a little less if a lot of
| video calls).
|
| Compared to the 2018 Air it replaced she says it is
| "insane". Although battery life is great it isn't a huge
| deal for her. The thing she loves the most is no fan
| noise when on video calls. This was actually the reason I
| bought it for her as she constantly complained about how
| loud the old Air was as soon as Zoom started up.
| smoldesu wrote:
| "Real world" for me is working on lightweight container
| tech and it involves a couple VMs at a time. I also
| normally keep Spotify or Discord open, and I also have
| Nextcloud open since it doesn't natively support syncing
| to it. Combined, this workflow is a disaster for ARM. My
| $300 T460s actually manages to stay cooler on the same
| workload.
| satysin wrote:
| Ah yes that makes more sense. Are these containers and
| VMs native or running under Rosetta 2?
|
| I use VMware Fusion a lot on my Intel MBP but haven't had
| a look at virtualisation on the M1 just yet. Waiting for
| it to mature a little more.
| smoldesu wrote:
| They're all native, to the best of my ability. Obviously
| Docker and ARM go together like toothpaste and peanut
| butter, so it's not I went into this expecting good
| performance (don't even get me started on stability
| though...)
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| What is "real work"?
| jbverschoor wrote:
| Loving the screenratio
| jitix wrote:
| This looks like a good improvement but I'm waiting for a Windows
| equivalent of the M1 MacBook Air (long battery life ultra book
| with good performance AND backward compatibility for apps).
|
| Any in-development products worth following?
| hu3 wrote:
| In-development? Not yet that I know of.
|
| To compare what AMD can do with 5nm dies we will have to wait
| since these chips are scarce currently.
| skavi wrote:
| There just aren't other chips with M1 levels of performance and
| efficiency. The Surface Pro X, however, is an ARM option,
| albeit with a now fairly outdated chip.
|
| I have high hopes for the laptop chip Qualcomm plans to build
| with the former Nuvia team though.
| varispeed wrote:
| I am looking for a new laptop, but seems like only way to get
| something that feels like an upgrade is going to go with
| Apple's M1. I hate this company, but I might hold my nose and
| get one if someone gets Linux working reasonably well. I'll
| wait few months and see...
| helloworld653 wrote:
| No Thunderbolt 4? Pass.
| mgamache wrote:
| No Thunderbolt anything... They claim it's not secure...
| jefft255 wrote:
| This might sound like heresy, but how's Linux support on existing
| surfaces? This looks like a pretty attractive laptop, but I'd
| like to have the option to run linux for ROS stuff.
| jasonshaev wrote:
| Just a note: one serious limitation I've encountered is that
| linux running under WSL2 (or WSL1 I believe) is unable to
| access USB. This was a show stopper for firmware development
| for me.
|
| The solution seems to be uh, patch the kernel?
| https://github.com/jovton/USB-Storage-on-WSL2
| drewrv wrote:
| This doesn't answer your question, but it appears ROS can work
| with WSL.
|
| https://jack-kawell.com/2020/06/12/ros-wsl2/
| [deleted]
| yakubin wrote:
| This video looks like special effects in a Bollywood action film.
| :)
| gigel82 wrote:
| I like the Surface quality, but damn, why couldn't they integrate
| the Ryzen 5000 series!?
|
| It's been out for a while, even the "PRO" business lineup is
| launching with other laptops this month :(
| jpalomaki wrote:
| Are the others actually shipping or just launching?
|
| Sometimes there's a big difference in the PC world between
| those.
| gigel82 wrote:
| The PRO Ryzens (like 5850U or 5650U) are not shipping as far
| as I know. Several models from HP, Dell and Lenovo are
| announced ("launched").
|
| The non-PRO Ryzens (like 5900HX, 5800H, etc.) have been
| shipping for a while (and you can actually find some in stock
| most days).
| drcongo wrote:
| The dedicated Teams button on everything is peak Microsoft.
| dekerta wrote:
| My thoughts exactly. That dedicated Teams button won't age well
| jayd16 wrote:
| Where is it? I don't see what key it is. Or is it only on the
| accessories?
| varispeed wrote:
| The hope is you can program it to kill Teams if you
| accidentally open it.
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