[HN Gopher] Dvorak vs Colemak (2010-2020)
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Dvorak vs Colemak (2010-2020)
Author : harporoeder
Score : 70 points
Date : 2021-04-13 14:53 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (xahlee.info)
(TXT) w3m dump (xahlee.info)
| asimjalis wrote:
| As dictation technology gets better I suspect the keyboard will
| not be as relevant for entering English text.
|
| One area where dictation does not work well is writing code.
|
| Question: Is there a keyboard optimized for typing programming
| languages rather than for typing English?
| ezrast wrote:
| With the exception of Dvorak, every English-centric layout I've
| looked at (Colemak, Workman, Carpalx, probably a couple others)
| moves only the letters around, keeping punctuation in the same
| place as QWERTY. This means the right pinky is heavily
| overloaded for many/most common programming languages, which
| use far more punctuation than prose does.
|
| Dvorak moves several punctuation keys onto the left hand, which
| is great, but unfortunately it also moves braces and brackets
| farther away from the home row, which I found bad enough by
| itself to prompt me to look elsewhere.
|
| There's a variant called "Programmer Dvorak" which is somehow
| even worse. Aside from moving the numerals into ridiculous
| positions, now all the paired delimiters are on number keys but
| not in any consistent way. Both braces are on the left hand.
| Brackets and parentheses are on opposing hands, but, depending
| on how you slide your right hand up to the number row (7 and 8
| are both natural resting places for the index finger), one pair
| will not be on corresponding fingers! And in general, I have a
| hard time touch-typing the middle part of the number row, so I
| don't like anything that puts common characters there.
|
| I've come to the conclusion that no, every common keyboard
| layout is bad for programming (for me). Eventually I gave up
| trying to find something suitable and made my own custom
| layout, which I've been using for a few years now.
| wodenokoto wrote:
| Coming from a Nordic country where we use a version of ISO
| layout I would not go so far as to say that US-ansi layout is
| optimized for programming, but programming languages are
| definitely constructed around US-ansi.
| gabetax wrote:
| Programming languages mostly boil down to symbols, and I
| haven't seen standardization efforts around that concern
| specifically. Some layouts swaps the "shift" state on the
| number row (i.e. you type ! by default, and have to hold shift
| to type 1). There are more commonly efforts around dedicated
| layouts for compact boards, like
| [Miryoku](https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku). You will
| find a ton of bespoke layouts though.
| https://configure.zsa.io/ergodox-ez/layouts/Qa34z/latest/1 is
| what my own layout that places `{}() -_+=` on the homerow. This
| is heavily dependent on language though. A Haskell person is
| going to have different symbol histograms from a Javascript
| person.
| hawthornio wrote:
| Code dictation should be entirely possible with language
| models. Need to understand how the write the code. But
| acquiring datasets for many languages and reducing latency may
| be difficult.
| chias wrote:
| I used Dvorak for a couple years before switching back in the
| mid-2010s. Back then my QWERTY speed was about 120 wpm, and I
| never got close to that on Dvorak, but really the only time I can
| even think at 120 wpm is when arguing on the internet so maybe
| that's not altogether a bad thing. I was never as fast, but
| typing was a lot more comfortable in general. I ended up
| switching back due to work computer restrictions (grad student)
| at the time.
|
| I just switched back to Dvorak, and while it's been a solid six
| years, it's coming back reasonably quickly :) I forgot how much I
| enjoyed this layout.
| cdaringe wrote:
| I'm a happy colemak user of 3 years. The h argument is pretty
| interesting. As an English only writer and a programmer, I did
| not personally find the remaining arguments compelling. But, this
| goes to show how complicated the selection process is, and
| appreciate the analysis nonetheless.
| kbd wrote:
| Learning Dvorak was one of the best decisions I've made in my
| career/life. It took a few weeks of effort to get back up to
| parity with Qwerty but it's paid off for _decades_.
| haikur wrote:
| Just pick one. A 5% typing speed increase won't make you a better
| programmer.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| Xah Lee's site and videos were really handy for me, i fired a few
| $$$ his way to say thanks for his efforts.
|
| My journey went: 1. Qwerty 2. Dvorak
| (liked the left right alternation, the fact its available on all
| OS's, disliked the common keys on weaker fingers) 2.
| Colemak mod dk (don't like rolling, alternating is just more
| natural, easy to go faster) 3. Halmak - favourite of the
| lot 4. Halmak + home row mod keys 5. Qwerty +
| gacs 6. Qwerty + gasc - just worked better than gacs for
| me
|
| Then there was the detour through hardware, zsa moonlander was
| the most interesting. Very nice key caps.
|
| The bad news is that it's all been for naught. I'm back to touch
| typing qwerty on a g915.
|
| I am using AHK and mimicing Xah Lee's external keypad idea with
| the num lock toggle - undo, redo, cut copy paste, all single key
| actions rather than chords.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| I've been using Colemak for 5+ years now. I spent a lot of time
| researching layouts before I committed to one. My conclusion on
| efficiency was (1) nobody really knows because everyone types
| differently (2) raw speed isn't important since most typing I do
| involves pauses to think.
|
| Dvorak and Colemak would both solve a huge problem for me. Qwerty
| requires a lot of extreme row movements that were causing me a
| lot of hand pain. Both Dvorak and Colemak move a significant
| amount of typing to the home row and eliminate a lot of the
| movement directly between the extremes of the rows. Choosing an
| extreme, anecdote, a word like minimum alternates between the top
| and bottom row between every letter on Qwerty. On Colemak,
| minimum there's only one extreme jump u => m. I've found that
| this tends to hold true for much of what I type.
|
| I personally choose Colemak because I liked the transition
| process a bit easier. The base layout is closer to Qwerty and you
| can pick a few keys to transition at a time.
| joshkaufman wrote:
| I've been a happy Colemak user since 2012. One of the first
| things I do when I get a new computer is rearrange the physical
| keys, which is a significant advantage of Apple non-butterfly
| keyboards. [1]
|
| Aside from less overall movement while typing, Colemak keeps many
| common keyboard shortcuts the same. The first few hours are very
| frustrating, but the overall time-to-competence is short. There's
| a lot of upside and little downside.
|
| I wrote about the process of learning Colemak in my book on skill
| acquisition, and posted a summary of the process and the
| tools/techniques I used on the book's website. [2]
|
| [1] https://twitter.com/joshkaufman/status/1334632614368583680
|
| [2] https://first20hours.com/typing/
| arh68 wrote:
| You're so right about [1], when possible. I should've
| rearranged them years ago on this mid-2012 MBA 11" .. maybe I
| should actually do that, today. I'm quite used to 104-key
| qwerty boards, but if all my keyboards could say aoeui they
| totally would.
|
| For those chiding the practice, it's not for beginners-still-
| learning, it's for actual-years-running-users trying to type
| one-handed once in a while.
|
| As for looking at a qwerty keyboard from a dvorak mindset, I'd
| say dvorak "wins" in my head like my right eye's image wins
| over my left. I look down and "see" aoeui .. pyf .. dhtns. But
| it's still confusing.
|
| The programmer in me wants a numpad for () [] {} +-/*^% &c. (Do
| any exist, off the shelf, I wonder?)
| Faaak wrote:
| You should _not_ rearrange the keys when learning a new layout,
| because then you won't train your muscular memory and it will
| be worse in the end
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| Having to resort to trial-and-error to find the correct key
| is painful and completely debilitating. You can still develop
| muscle memory if the labels are correct.
| nayuki wrote:
| Been using Dvorak full time since 2004, very happy with it, never
| looked back at QWERTY. I wrote a long self-interview here:
| https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak
|
| One new point that I haven't worked into the article is the fact
| that many keyboard shortcuts require a Right Ctrl key or else
| they can't be done on one hand. At the same time, many laptops on
| the market omit the Right Ctrl key, to my utter frustration.
| Manufacturers need to stop messing with keyboard layouts! Even my
| humble 13-inch Lenovo ThinkPad X220 from year 2012 had a pretty
| good layout while being compact, while newer machines keep making
| keyboards worse despite having the same physical dimensions.
| limeblack wrote:
| Most can be done with one hand on a Mac but I do know what you
| mean.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| The X220 keyboard is the holy grail of laptop keyboards as far
| as I'm concerned.
|
| In addition to what you mention, it's got a big fat Escape key
| that's nice for vi users. This keys has shrunk on newer and
| competing laptop keyboards, so I've since resorted to
| exchanging Caps Lock for Escape.
|
| The blatant Qwerty-centrism of Ctrl+Z, Ctrl+X, Ctrl+C, and
| Ctrl+V is quite annoying for many Dvorak users. In my case, I
| was looking to cure more than RSI, so before learning Dvorak I
| incidentally also learned to use a left hand mouse. Combined
| with Dvorak, theses shortcuts are easier. They're also doubly
| easier with a left-hand trackball mouse, because you can hold
| Ctrl down with your left thumb while you control the trackball
| with your left index/middle fingers, and hit Z/X/C/V, all
| simultaneously.
| nayuki wrote:
| Mostly agreed. Regarding X220, I also like its decently
| arranged block of Delete/Home/End/PgUp/PgDn keys and
| dedicated volume buttons (whereas other laptop keyboards may
| require Function Lock or Fn). And it has a Context Menu key,
| which I actually use; many manufacturers (including later
| Lenovo) think it's superfluous and silently omit it.
|
| Regarding the QWERTY-centrism of Ctrl+ZXCV, I have absolutely
| no problem with their Dvorak equivalents and can touch-type
| these shortcuts without looking at the keyboard. But I must,
| must, must have a Right Ctrl key to do this effectively. Just
| for reference for QWERTY people out there, Dvorak ZXCV is
| equivalent to QWERTY Slash,B,I,Period. For example, Ctrl+C in
| Dvorak has the same position as Ctrl+I in QWERTY. I would put
| my left pinky on I and left thumb (or index finger) on Right
| Ctrl. And I would put my right hand on the mouse to select
| text or files or draw.
| limeblack wrote:
| > There are Dvorak with QWERTY-shortcuts layout, that comes with
| Linux
|
| This is not accurate really. This used to be the default but at
| least with Ubuntu/Debian you need 3rd part software. Which means
| this statement holds true for windows also.
| tbenst wrote:
| I prefer the quantitative approach taken by Carpalx [1].
|
| This analysis finds that Dvorak and Colemak are both
| substantially better than QWERTY, but Colemak has the edge.
|
| [1] http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?popular_alternatives
| Taikonerd wrote:
| I think the main take-away from that link is "either option is
| much better than QWERTY." So, if you're trying to decide
| between Colemak and Dvorak, remember that you're basically
| guaranteed to win -- either choice is a big improvement!
| pinouchon wrote:
| I'm using the qgmlwy layout for a few years now, pretty happy
| with it. I remapped caps & added a new modifier to have a
| "special chars" layer and it works pretty well. Overall it's
| more trouble than it's worth, if I had to redo the whole
| journey, I would simply learn to touch-type with querty (maybe
| colemak), but I'm still happy with the end result.
| limeblack wrote:
| If you type alternative languages Dvorak vowel constant
| alternation makes more sense long term in my experience.
| goodpoint wrote:
| Colemak has worse hand alternation than Dvorak and Carpalx does
| not account properly for this.
| adrianN wrote:
| I use a modified English Dvorak layout where I put symbols that I
| use often to a nicer position and added Umlauts so that I can
| type German. For example Alt+j (the key) produces { and Alt+k
| produces }. Modifying keyboard layouts is simple enough that I
| don't see why I shouldn't adapt mine to suit me best. I don't
| type on other people's computers often enough that it matters
| that I have to hunt and peck there.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I have used dvorak for around 15 years now, and I'm very happy
| with it. Took me 2-3 weeks to type as fast as in QWERTY, and
| hands feel way more relaxed and easy.
|
| For those who are afraid that it will somehow affect QWERTY
| typing speed, such fears are totally unfounded, I can type QWERTY
| as easily as I could before, just with some more strain compared
| to Dvorak.
|
| That said:
|
| - for developers, the typing speed is not the productivity
| bottleneck, so you are unlikely to see any real gains
|
| - hotkeys are generally a MESS, especially if you use 2 languages
| on a system. More so on Windows. Less so on Ubuntu.
| mbauman wrote:
| I tried Dvorak for a year and hotkeys are what made me go back.
|
| Hotkeys are this bizarre mix of positional _and_ semantic
| locations. That is, some are the keys they are because of where
| the keys are placed (most notably z-x-c-v but also j-k-l-o and
| many others in various apps), while others are what they are
| because of their mnemonics. Neither preserving Qwerty locations
| for them nor using Dvorak everywhere is right.
| dylanz wrote:
| I'm at about 15 years with Dvorak as well. It completely healed
| my RSI issues which were getting quite bad. Learning it was a
| mental challenge and re-learning Vim wasn't really fun.
|
| I could type around 90 WPM in QWERTY and now I hunt and pick at
| it. I'm at that speed in Dvorak now so it doesn't really
| matter. If you play games at all it kind of sucks having to
| switch back and forth, but that's a small price to pay to not
| have career ending RSI.
| ajfjrbfbf wrote:
| Why would you have to relearn Vim? Just remap all the key
| where they used to be.
| function_seven wrote:
| Wouldn't it still be difficult? The HJKL row makes sense to
| remap to DHTN. But other commands are mnemonic and would
| make more sense to follow the key to its new location.
|
| So you have collisions. ("Does Y mean "yank"? Or does it
| now mean "to"? Well "to" can't be T anymore, because that's
| now the motion up command.")
|
| So you have to either remap everything back to qwerty
| positions, and learn the new mnemonics, or keep the letter
| associations the same, and give up on the clustered motion
| commands.
|
| I'm thinking it's probably better to do the latter, but I'd
| love to hear from vimmers that use non-qwerty layouts.
| ezrast wrote:
| I'm not a power vim user but sticking to the default
| keybinds on Dvorak isn't so bad. JK are still right next
| to each other, and HL are on the right index and pinky,
| respectively, so the basic spatial relationships between
| the keys are somewhat preserved.
|
| I find that remapping shortcuts is generally not worth
| it. Yeah, undo/cut/copy/paste are weird and that sucks,
| but it's better than fighting every application you ever
| use, on every machine, including machines you SSH into,
| until you die.
|
| For gaming, on the other hand, mixed up keybinds are
| intolerable. I just switch back to QWERTY for that.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| I type Dvorak and simply use the default Vim key
| bindings. Vim defaults are weird with Dvorak, but
| significantly more intuitive than what the situation is
| with Colemak. Here's the Vim and Dvorak inspired custom
| keymap I use on my programmable keyboard: https://github.
| com/1MachineElf/qmk_firmware/tree/_sb4dv/keyb...
| nuclear_eclipse wrote:
| I've been on Dvorak full-time since 2008, and even though
| I generally don't use vim itself for programming, I do
| still use vim-mode in my editors and IDE. But I gave up
| on using hjkl long before switching to Dvorak, and I've
| always just either used motions like w/b/f/t/n/etc, or
| moved to the arrow keys for shorter motions. This also
| lets me share more of the muscle memory for movements
| when I'm typing into standard text boxes like this.
| function_seven wrote:
| Kind of ironic. I'm on a 75-key keyboard, with no arrow
| keys. Instead, they're mapped to a layer under
| (drumroll...) HJKL.
|
| So even if I ever did make the jump to Colemack or
| Dvorak, I'd probably keep those mappings to the same
| physical keys. Working in vim, I'd just use my "arrow"
| keys rather than the native motion keymappings.
|
| I also try to avoid using them in the first place
| (instead using w/b/f/t/n/etc), but sometimes it's faster
| to just tap the key a few times rather than "formulate a
| plan" to reach my target
| nojster wrote:
| What kind of build is 75 keys without arrows?
|
| A 60% (no arrow keys) has 61 keys (ANSI) and the next
| "bigger" one, a 65% has 67 keys and usually already arrow
| keys.
|
| Is it some non-standard ergo mech build?
| function_seven wrote:
| > _Is it some non-standard ergo mech build?_
|
| Basically this. Not really ergo, other than being
| ortholinear and having space between the resting
| positions of my hands.
|
| Here's a photo: https://imgur.com/0UBSi74
| Faaak wrote:
| That a bad idea because when you are on a foreign server
| then you'll be quite lost
| KajMagnus wrote:
| > _For those who are afraid that it will somehow affect QWERTY
| typing speed, such fears are totally unfounded_
|
| What! :- ) Well founded fears, I'd say: I've been typing in
| Colemak for 10+ years and if I switch to QWERTY I'm
| significantly slower than before I started using Colemak. --
| But I'm still glad I made the switch.
|
| > _the typing speed is not the productivity bottleneck_
|
| Yes agreed. I'd only recommend a software person to switch, if
| they think the learning process seems fun. But maybe if one
| writes novels, it's nice to type faster? Or someone who writes
| a lot here at HN :- )
|
| > _hotkeys are generally a MESS_
|
| Colemak: Hotkeys = fine :- )
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| _> What! :- ) Well founded fears, I 'd say: I've been typing
| in Colemak for 10+ years and if I switch to QWERTY I'm
| significantly slower than before I started using Colemak._
|
| I'm not a Colemak user, but from my experiences with Dvorak,
| I have a theory on why this happens. _Precisely because it
| shares many keys with QWERTY!_
|
| Explanation: when I type in Dvorak or QWERTY, the only
| hesitation is when I type the first letter of a text I need
| to type. Then, a muscle memory kicks in and I type without
| thinking. The only exception: words starting with letter "A".
| This letter is special, because it is _the only_ key that has
| the same position in both Dvorak and QWERTY!
|
| So when I type words starting with "A", my muscle memory
| kicks in not on first typed letter, but on second! With
| Colemak, I guess this effect might be in full swing for
| almost every letter you type, and THAT would be a significant
| problem. So what is sold as being Colemak's advantage is
| probably a disadvantage if you need to type on different
| types of keyboards.
| cicko wrote:
| Then you don't use the letter M? Oh, this reminds me
| showing Dvorak to a colleague. He asks: "So, where is the
| letter A?" - "Mmm, right here, where it is in Qwerty." -
| "OK. And where is, for example, letter M?" - "Mmm, right
| here, where it is in Qwerty." - "So, what's the point,
| then?"
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Hm, you are right! M is too on the same place in both
| layouts, but I never had a hesitation with it. Maybe it
| only applied to vowels ..
| linknoid wrote:
| As a full time developer, I'm sure my typing speed directly
| affects my productivity (probably between 80-100 wpm in
| Dvorak). There are a lot of times I'm typing at full speed
| for hours, aided by code auto-completion and vim macros, and
| since the program already exists in my head, the limiting
| factor is how fast I can type it out. Other times not so
| much, I'm sitting there reading code, or debugging line by
| line, or whatever. But when I'm ready to code, my typing
| speed is the single biggest factor of how fast I can get it
| out.
| spacemanmatt wrote:
| I've been typing Dvorak since age 17, so... 37 years. Despite
| breaking my left hand (not while typing) I haven't lost any
| typing skill/speed that I can tell, and I haven't ever seen a
| hint of carpal tunnel syndrome.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Btw there are dvorak layouts for one-handed typing, both for
| left and right hand. If I ever break my arm so I won't be
| able to type for some time, I'll definitely try that.
| TimSchumann wrote:
| Just wanted to chime in. Same experience here. Switched to
| Dvorak over 20 years ago and I had almost the exact same
| experience.
|
| It's just like knowing a different language, there's some
| switch somewhere in my brain I can flip and type in either
| layout. If I use one for a long period of time, the other one
| gets slower and less easily recalled, but it takes on the order
| of minutes to come back to 90% speed.
|
| Agree that the main annoyances are hotkeys and what layer of
| the software you're mapping things in.
| bemmu wrote:
| 2-3 weeks!?
|
| I switched to Colemak in September (2020) and have been using
| it solely ever since. I started at 110 WPM QWERTY and am
| currently at 85 WPM Colemak.
| toyg wrote:
| Your wpm is high. I'm in the 60s and Colemak actually
| _improved_ my speed after a few months.
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| I was at qwerty speed with Dvorak in about 2-3 weeks as well.
| In the past couple years I tried Colemak, but I could not
| make the switch for some reason (from qwerty). I don't know
| why; I can't say it's because of the layout itself; could be
| that I'm 20+ years older than I was when I did the dvorak
| switch.
| weavie wrote:
| As a counterpoint, my ability to type on Qwerty is shot now
| that I am on Dvorak. I'm back to searching around on the
| keyboard with my eyes and tapping with single fingers. I feel
| sure people question my ability to work on computers when I
| have to go and fix something on their computers and spend ages
| just typing out basic stuff..
| arafa wrote:
| Some folks seem to be able to switch and keep their old
| ability and some can't. I was able to switch back to Qwerty
| pretty easily, but it made my wrists contort in such odd ways
| that I never noticed before. So I generally wouldn't go back
| to it.
| 1MachineElf wrote:
| It took me two years before I could switch between Dvorak an
| Qwerty without much difficulty. Four years later, I can now
| rapidly switch between the two. The only problem is
| remembering which layout I have turned on, but once that's
| clear, there's not a problem anymore. I haven't practiced
| since the first year, but all that time I frequently switch
| because I work with multiple computers and RDP sessions where
| the layout doesn't carry over. Touch typing with Dvorak came
| after learning the muscle memory for typing characters, and
| afterwards with Qwerty, it was muscle memory for
| words/phrases that got me typing well again.
| neodymiumphish wrote:
| I was in this boat as well for quite some time. Early
| COVID, I bought a programmable (QMK-based) keyboard and
| hard-coded the keys to match the Dvorak layout, since most
| of my interactions with PCs was via RDP-like situations
| (Horizon Web Client, VMs, RDP). This way, I could keep
| everything configured to QWERTY and just use my keyboard.
| On my laptop, I have it set up with both layouts, so that
| if I don't have my QMK keyboard connected (in my lap,
| travelling, etc), I can just hit Ctrl-Shift and switch the
| built-in keyboard to Dvorak.
|
| To me, this is the best setup. Only pain point is that it
| required me to configure the 2 PC games I play to fit with
| my Dvorak configuration, since the PC sees it as me typing
| on a QWERTY keyboard with alien hands.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Maybe you weren't all that good with qwerty before? I always
| felt it's like learning an extra foreign language: learning
| French doesn't make your German worse.
| aspaviento wrote:
| It does actually. The time you spend practising French is
| time you are neglecting German and hence, your knowledge
| will decay. If it's not a long time you won't notice it
| (maybe some very specific words that you rarely use will be
| forgotten).
| toyg wrote:
| Any long-term migrant learns this over the years, sadly.
| Obviously you can still use the language, but the
| farthest borders of language-specific knowledge become
| frail and tend to fall off the edge of your brain. I now
| struggle to give "flourish" to my speech in the "old"
| language, and have to make a conscious effort to remember
| difficult words.
| laylomo2 wrote:
| I can type Qwerty, Dvorak, and Colemak all over 100wpm
| (https://youtube.com/watch?v=mQ6iSYMMHv0). You definitely
| have to practice all three together if you don't want to
| lose them.
|
| Also happened with language learning. I speak English and
| Spanish natively. Learned Italian (very similar to Spanish)
| in high school. After college learned Chinese in China. One
| day I ran into an Italian person in China and tried to talk
| to them in Italian. I kept jumbling Italian and Chinese,
| even though on paper Italian is so much easier for me than
| Chinese. It was like my brain only had space for all native
| languages, and just one foreign language. I'm sure with
| practice I could speak both Italian and Chinese, but that's
| the whole point of this comment. It takes practice to
| maintain them all.
| wussboy wrote:
| I agree with this. Colemak is a skill. Qwerty is a skill.
| Switching between the two is a separate skill. But all 3
| can be learned.
| lmilcin wrote:
| I think it is exactly the opposite.
|
| If your speed did not fall it means you did not learn well.
|
| I actually learned to type at school (yeah, funny business
| school my parents sent me to). We had an actual specialist
| teacher to teach us to type on electric typewriters using
| pretty nice methodology.
|
| To learn to type well is to train "muscle memory". This
| means you think the letter and your body does it for you,
| automatically, without any part of your conscious brain
| involved.
|
| I don't know where keys are on my keyboard. It is unmarked,
| so I can't look it up. If somebody asks me, I need to lay
| my hands on it and think the letter and see which finger
| "wants to" press the button. In that regard I am a
| passenger and once I think a word or sentence I don't have
| any further control -- it is some uncontrollable part of my
| brain that takes over and does it for me.
|
| Even when typing at speed I am still free to think about
| anything else. Just as when you walk you don't need to
| think about walking itself and can concentrate on whatever
| else you want.
| andrewzah wrote:
| YMMV but after 3-4 weeks of dvorak, I actually did have
| difficulties when using qwerty. I gave up dvorak because I
| don't want to have to modify every keyboard/system I'm on,
| as opposed to just sitting down at a terminal and getting
| work done.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| I think you might have tried a bit more. I'm typing this
| on my wife's qwerty laptop and have zero issues with
| blind typing on it, just a little more strain from having
| to move fingers more that it is possible on Dvorak.
| bewuethr wrote:
| But not using German makes your German worse.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| True. But you can't be isolated from QWERTY in the real
| world: my wife's computer uses it, as do a lot of
| computers out there, so I still do get practice with it
| from time to time.
| mettamage wrote:
| I've met people who lost their native language for another
| one (Portuguese --> Italian).
|
| So maybe GP was that good
| weavie wrote:
| I could touchtype like crazy on qwerty before. It's
| possible because I learned dvorak when I was older - early
| 40s - I only have space in my brain for a single layout
| now..
| ericlevine wrote:
| I have to agree with the other poster. My typing speed was
| in the 70+ WPM on qwerty prior to learning dvorak, and now
| I'm a glorified hunt-and-pecker on qwerty keyboards.
|
| The only exception to this is typing on my mobile device,
| which is configured to qwerty.
| soperj wrote:
| Really? I always feel like I'm mixing up my 3rd/4th/5th
| languages.
| SkyPuncher wrote:
| Colemak all muscle memory for me, so it's nearly impossible
| for me to remember my Qwerty muscle memory now.
|
| One place that really sticks out is job interviews. Asking
| your interviewer to change keyboard layouts is a bit
| intrusive. It's not a huge deal on a Mac, but it's a
| challenge on Windows since Colemak isn't built in.
| goodpoint wrote:
| I never had any problem in switching forth-and-back
| especially because the layout are completely different and
| this prevents confusion.
|
| Besides, why would you need to use qwerty other than
| occasionally?
|
| Reminder: sharing keyboard with other people is _really_ bad
| for hygiene, due to the shape of the keys preventing any deep
| cleaning.
| pkkim wrote:
| When I was around 12 I learned Dvorak and lost the ability to
| touch type in Qwerty, then my parents forced me to go back to
| Qwerty because I kept leaving the family computers in Dvorak.
| Because of that I can type in both, though my Dvorak is still
| faster.
| lmilcin wrote:
| Same problem here.
|
| I learned to type on Dvorak 20 years ago and my ability to
| type on QWERTY still did not recover to even 1/5th of my
| previous speed.
|
| It is pretty embarrassing sometimes.
|
| On the other hand I use completely unmarked keyboard which
| coupled with Dvorak makes me largely invulnerable to pranking
| by coworkers by writing mail in my name (assuming I forget to
| lock my workstation which happens about twice in a decade).
| kbd wrote:
| I can still type on QWERTY without looking at keys but my
| skill definitely took a hit because I never use it. I bet I'd
| be up to par if I spent a day or two only on QWERTY again.
|
| One time I had an interview where they handed me a Windows
| laptop on QWERTY to code some problem and I looked like I
| could barely use a computer :D
| snidane wrote:
| Same for me. My fingers remember dvorak and can't work with
| qwerty with just using the fingers' memory.
|
| I use qwerty on mobile just fine. I don't think dvorak on
| mobile would be of any help since I type with thumbs.
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| This was my experience, except I couldn't switch between them
| very well, and my RSI more or less went away so I'm back on
| qwerty now, with no re-flare-ups.
|
| Emacs with dvorak was... interesting.
| jccalhoun wrote:
| Do people really type non-stop long enough to make any of the
| speed gains actually significant? Even when I was writing my
| dissertation I would rarely type more than a couple sentences at
| a time and even then I often had to back space because of a typo
| or something.
|
| If you have some kind of RSI and it helps then it would make
| sense but at least for me it doesn't make sense for the way I
| type.
| carabiner wrote:
| It's not for speed, it's for comfort/safety. You can type 100
| WPM with two fingers:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mqyiyh_hrUs
|
| This comes up in every HN post.
| valarauko wrote:
| I had RSI issues crop up when I was writing my PhD thesis - a
| lot of hurried, last minute typing where typos be damned. I'm
| also mostly hunt and peck, so touch typing would have probably
| resolved most of my issues.
| spacemanmatt wrote:
| > If you have some kind of RSI and it helps then it would make
| sense
|
| I think it makes way more sense to consider the risk and the
| odds of getting a RSI from qwerty vs. dvorak and take
| preventative action. You don't want to suffer a learning curve
| on the rehab side of an RSI, while also kicking yourself in the
| posterior for something that was avoidable.
| imiric wrote:
| I feel like more important and easier measures anyone can
| take to prevent RSI that doesn't involve learning a new
| keyboard layout are ergonomic: ensure you have a good
| chair/posture, use a wrist rest (these are debatable, but I
| couldn't type without one), and avoid taking your hands off
| the keyboard (don't use a mouse if possible).
|
| I've been using QWERTY for decades now, and for years have
| used a ThinkPad keyboard with a TrackPoint instead of a
| mouse, use a mostly hotkey-driven workflow, and a wrist rest
| even on a laptop. Anecdotal, but I've rarely experienced
| strain and can type comfortably for hours.
|
| I know QWERTY is demonstrably worse, but so far I haven't had
| the need to try another layout. The downsides of losing my
| current muscle memory, having to remap hotkeys and not being
| productive on other computers don't seem worth it to me.
| colmanhumphrey wrote:
| Good to discuss, but I'm not 100% sure about some of the points
| here.
|
| - The `h` problem is purely about moving your index finger, so I
| don't think it makes sense to talk about the bigram being
| popular. The relevant number is just how many `h`s people have to
| type in general
|
| - Shortcuts staying the same: saying that there exists a variant
| of Dvorak created to do this too is a huge point in favour of
| Colemak. The point is so good that people modified a 70 year old
| layout to match it! How popular is this variant?
|
| - Saying that Colemak is bad because of Vim, then saying it's
| good because of CapsLock/Backspace BUT that doesn't really count
| because you can also do this reprogramming with Dvorak: can you
| not also change Vim? Maybe this is much harder
| samus wrote:
| Vim is relevant because it is not always possible to customize
| it. Think of hardened servers or containers. Also, it's an
| editor of last resort on most Unix systems. It's worth
| discussing whether nano should take this place instead.
|
| Much more tricky are applications that have hardcoded hotkeys,
| or who listen to an unholy mix of keys and scancodes. Uncommon
| nowadays (many games are not great at this), but still sucks if
| it happens.
| messo wrote:
| I use the default keymapping for Vim with Colemak (Norwegian)
| and find it a pleasant experience. The up/down movement is
| reversed, but I got used to it pretty quickly.
| inter_netuser wrote:
| Amazingly high prevalence of Colemak in this thread.
|
| I'd expect it to be marginal.
| Taikonerd wrote:
| I taught myself Colemak last summer, as a pandemic project. If
| anyone is interested in learning, I recommend the "Tarmak"
| transitional layouts [1].
|
| It's 5 intermediate layouts to transition from QWERTY to Colemak.
| Each only changes a few keys. So, rather than 1 big change (where
| you basically can't touch-type for a month) you have 5 little
| changes that you can learn over a weekend each.
|
| [1] https://forum.colemak.com/topic/1858-learn-colemak-in-
| steps-...
| helianer wrote:
| Tarmak is what finally allowed me to switch away from QWERTY.
| Prior to tarmak I couldn't deal with the massive productivity
| loss that I would initially encounter with Dvorak and I would
| eventually switch back.
|
| The fact that initially steps are the highest impact really
| helps too.
| poidos wrote:
| [I don't use either layout and don't have much wrist strain / any
| RSI]
|
| I wonder how much of the benefit from using these alternate
| layouts is due solely to the layout, as opposed to some
| combination of the layout and better awareness of correct
| ergonomics, using stretching and warmup techniques, etc.
|
| Hard to quantify of course. Would love to hear from anyone that
| switched to one of these layouts but didn't make any other
| changes in their wrist health otherwise.
| hawthornio wrote:
| Purely anecdotal, but I switched to Dvorak for ~6 months in
| middle school and much preferred it to Qwerty. Now that I've
| spent more years having Qwerty drilled into my brain I'm
| hesitant to make a switch.
| goodpoint wrote:
| I switched to Dvorak after some 12 years of Qwerty. It took
| ages and was still 100% worth it.
| rgoulter wrote:
| Learned Dvorak when I was in university; reverted to qwerty
| sometime after that for some reason. I think because the
| typematrix I was using broke.
|
| Picked Dvorak up again about a year ago after getting one of
| those fancy ortholinear keyboards.
|
| My qwerty was a quick 'undisciplined' hunt-and-peck. (e.g.
| typing the 'y' in 'your' with the left hand finger). Dvorak was
| trained with the 'discipline' of each finger being assigned to
| a column.
|
| Qwerty feels somewhat disorganised and chaotic compared do
| Dvorak (even on the same keyboard). Dvorak feels more
| comfortable.
| jeromenerf wrote:
| I would like data on this too.
|
| I use Dvorak on keyboards and QWERTY on touch screens.
|
| I find QWERTY difficult to touch for all the obvious reasons
| but actually pretty good for 2 to 4 fingers typing on a iPhone
| / iPad. I have seen people typing faster than I do with only 4
| fingers and their thumbs, usually with a machine gun style.
|
| Dvorak is (great for | forcing you into) touch typing, except
| that right pinky overuse. It feels good but you don't really
| have a choice.
|
| My wife doesn't touch type and is bent over the keyboard,
| looking down at the keys. Dvorak would not help her until she
| relaxes down on her chair, and type with more fingers and
| without looking.
| toyg wrote:
| The point about programming languages is fairly irrelevant; the
| truth is that basically all layouts are bad for programmers,
| since they inevitably put special characters at the margins,
| which are hard to reach. I have a short pinkie so it's extra hard
| for me.
|
| The answer is to use a meta key to add a layer dedicated to those
| - CapsLock is great for that. I did that last year [0], although
| I now wish I had that meta-key available on the right side too (I
| don't want to mess with the traditional Ctrl and Alt, too many
| programs have shortcuts hard-bound to those). With that extra
| layer, you can go to town and use the home row for the stuff you
| really need in your preferred language(s).
|
| As for simple text layouts, I never warmed to Dvorak but picked
| up Colemak very quickly, and now I just can't look back.
|
| [0] http://blog.pythonaro.com/2020/06/better-access-to-
| special-c...
| Syzygies wrote:
| Yes. The rabbit hole that took for me was writing my own
| firmware using QMK. Make every key close to home row a tap/hold
| key accessing either modifier keys or extra layers. My fingers
| finally travel much less (the apparent promise of
| Dvorak/Colemak) but for the actual work of programming and
| operating a computuer.
|
| https://github.com/Syzygies/log_folders/blob/master/keyboard...
| enragedcacti wrote:
| yup!
|
| A really affordable entry into this that I've found is
| Epomaker keyboards. I struggled to find the exact layout I
| wanted in an affordable QMK keyboard. Their software sucks
| but it works and profiles are stored to the keyboard so it
| can come with you wherever. They also have split space-bar
| and 3 space-bar options which is really nice for adding
| modifier keys beyond Caps-lock or rebinding backspace or
| escape into a more comfortable position.
|
| I realize this is starting to sound like an ad, but my
| biggest challenge getting into fully reprogrammable keyboards
| was the huge price tag once you start narrowing features. In
| my case, a 60% keyboard that retained arrow keys would have
| been $200+ for a QMK supported model. The Epomaker I picked
| up was $65 or so.
| samus wrote:
| The Neo2 and Bone layouts [1] are very interesting for
| programmers that have organized special characters as you
| described. There, Caps Lock and the # key are used for
| switching layers. Another layer includes arrow keys and number
| keys and almost eliminate the need to ever take your hands off
| the home row.
|
| The best part is that most Linux distros already include it!
| Yes, it's intended to type German, but it should work for
| English as well since these languages are so similar. Also, it
| has many dead keys that should help composing accented
| characters.
|
| [1] https://www.neo-layout.org/
| kbrwn wrote:
| Colemak user since I taught myself one summer (2012) by spending
| the first 20 minutes after waking up typing in vim-tutor. I made
| the switch because I could not stop looking at the keys on QWERTY
| keyboards no matter what I tried even with blank keys I would
| look down out of habit. I tried Dvorak and it felt so unnatural.
| The common key letters for commands were completely in foreign
| places that I could not get used to at all. After 2 wks of barely
| getting past 30 wpm on Dvorak I switched to colemak I was able to
| beat my QWERTY typing speed after only 2 wks of studying and now
| I can type 200+ words per minutes with over 90% accuracy thinking
| about spelling slows be down more than anything else.
|
| If you are under 30 I suggest you give an alt keyboard layout a
| shot. Older than that and the time to learn Colemak/Dvorak vs
| just improving your QWERTY speed/accuracy might not be worth it.
| adrianN wrote:
| If you type at 90% accuracy, do you go back through your text
| to fix all the typos or do rely on some kind of automation to
| do that for you? I don't type particularly fast, but every time
| I tried increasing my speed my accuracy suffers sufficiently
| that going back and correcting mistakes takes more time than
| typing a bit slower.
| melling wrote:
| "I switched to colemak I was able to beat my QWERTY typing
| speed after only 2 wks of studying and now I can type 200+
| words per minutes"
|
| If it only takes a few weeks then wouldn't people of almost any
| age benefit if they type 4-5 hours a day?
| spiznnx wrote:
| I've been using Colemak for 6 years now. Although not faster,
| it's much more comfortable, especially in the wrists. Along with
| frequently switching between mousing, a tented+split keyboard,
| and remapping programming punctuation on a third layer with QMK,
| I'm very glad I made the investment to reduce the chance of
| developing an RSI.
| gedy wrote:
| I use Colemak and agree with the bias towards rolling on single
| hand (Colemak) vs alternating hands (Dvorak). Rolling doesn't
| feel natural to me.
|
| However, Colemak was much easier for me to learn though (I tried
| Dvorak first), and the ZXVC in same spot without tweaking
| shortcuts is a plus.
| creese wrote:
| Dvorak is suboptimal for the command-line. Try typing 'ls -l'.
| notretarded wrote:
| ll
| mumblemumble wrote:
| So, for RSI, I have an alternative hypothesis. My issues are only
| with my right hand. I'm pretty sure the problem is not QWERTY,
| it's just the ]'/ keys. Having that one extra column of keys to
| reach across in order to get to the enter and shift keys means my
| right hand experiences a lot more wrist movement and stretching
| than my left hand does.
|
| (I find hitting the enter key on an ANSI keyboard to be
| irritating enough that I'm frankly impressed that anyone
| tolerates ISO keyboards.)
|
| I'm currently giving an ultra-minimalist keyboard, the Atreus, a
| shot. I'm still in the adjustment period, but it seems to be
| promising, and a much smaller adjustment than abandoning QWERTY
| entirely. Bonus points for not being the size of an aircraft
| carrier, like most ergo keyboards are.
| CarVac wrote:
| Extra small boards, I contend, do not help for QWERTY because
| the layout inherently makes you reach all the time.
|
| I use a 46-key Mitosis (non-split custom version) with Dvorak
| and greatly enjoy how little I need to reach with my fingers.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| It might depend on the specific problem a person has. I've
| never had discomfort with the actual letter keys on QWERTY,
| and definitely don't feel like I'm having to "reach" to get
| them. Where, to me, "reach" implies anything that's outside
| the comfortable range of motion.
|
| For example, on a standard QWERTY keyboard, I find the number
| keys, the Y key, and the brackets to be a reach. Dvorak
| actually makes that situation a bit worse for me. It moves a
| somewhat more frequent letter, F, into the Y key's position,
| and it moves the brackets further away in order to put keys
| that I use less often in a more accessible position.
|
| But that's me. I'd guess that this sort of thing varies a lot
| from person to person, because we all have different hands.
| spacemanmatt wrote:
| I get great mileage out of the Apple keyboard+number pad. Low
| profile, short, low-resistance key travel, great key
| density/spacing for my hands at least. It's a lot to like for
| a low-impact typist.
| toyg wrote:
| If it's only a physical thing for you, you might give the
| orthogonals a try.
|
| That's where I want to "go next", but I've not yet seen
| anything on the market equivalent to the average Kinesis
| (solid, programmable, not horribly expensive, not requiring
| soldering).
| mumblemumble wrote:
| The Keyboardio version of the Atreus is somewhat along those
| lines. It's very minimalist (44 keys, which is two more than
| the kit version), but it's well built, has staggered columnar
| key layout, and is very programmable.
|
| The Mitosis that CarVac mentioned is another interesting
| option along similar lines, though I can't personally vouch
| for it.
| tome wrote:
| I use Dvorak but I also bind CAPS to be a second ENTER exactly
| because of this problem.
| ericbarrett wrote:
| Is that your mousing hand? I had a similar problem, and
| swapping my mouse/trackpad for a trackball helped immensely.
| emodendroket wrote:
| My suspicion is that whatever efficiency gains are possible are
| going to be wiped out by the difficulty of learning a new system
| and then also not being able to readily have your preferred
| layout everywhere.
| dheera wrote:
| I only have 1 data point but it took me about 2-3 weeks to
| touch type with Dvorak and I found friends who learned QWERTY
| took much longer, as much as half a year.
|
| I also was learning piano so that may have been a factor.
| goodpoint wrote:
| It took me a long time to gain speed on Dvorak and I'm not much
| faster than on Qwerty but the amount of effort required to type
| is significantly less - absolutely worth it.
| arafa wrote:
| I don't find myself to be any faster in Dvorak (70 wpm, like
| before) and from other users and people online, that seems to
| be typical. There are some possible gains at the high end,
| since from what I read most of the confirmed world record
| holders for typing speed use alternate layouts (for example,
| https://www.typing.com/blog/fastest-typists/).
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Expect to take a few months to get back up to your old speed,
| perhaps a year to surpass it (not everyone does.) Whether this
| is a good investment depends on your age, if you have or will
| likely develop pain from typing QWERTY, and whether you're able
| to learn an alternative layout during a time when quick typing
| isn't as essential. If you need to regularly use other people's
| computers, you'll retain your ability to type in both layouts.
| samus wrote:
| If you don't touch type, or if you already type at a fairly
| high WPM rate, then no, an optimized layout doesn't really
| matter.
|
| Personally, I have been learning to touch type and used the
| opportunity to use an optimized layout. I have recovered almost
| all the speed of non-blind Qwerty within a month and plan to
| stay.
|
| Not being able to use it everywhere is not a drawback to me.
| For those rare events where I cannot use it, I still have more
| than enough muscle memory for Qwerty.
| tome wrote:
| For me the efficiency gains were not the point. The point was
| that changing to Dvorak massively decreased by RSI (although 20
| years later I'm discovering that bodyweight strength training
| may have been even more effective).
|
| Not readily having the preferred layout available is a non-
| issue. Either I'm using a keyboard for less than ten minutes,
| in which case I hunt-and-peck on QWERTY, or I'm using it for
| longer, in which case I switch to Dvorak using the OS keyboard
| settings. It's never been a problem on Windows or Linux. I
| don't think I've used a Mac during that period but I imagine
| it's equally easy.
|
| As I recall the awkward learning period was between a week and
| a month. Twenty years later I've never regretted the time
| invested.
| emodendroket wrote:
| I've found strength training far more effective for that than
| all the equipment money can buy, and I tried quite a bit of
| it.
| 1123581321 wrote:
| Interesting data. I'll just mention that if you are looking at
| changing layouts and are concerned about cut, copy, paste and
| undo, don't be. Within a year it won't bother you to be typing X,
| C and V with different fingers.
| danpalmer wrote:
| Agreed, mostly.
|
| I used the Dvorak-Command-QWERTY layout on macOS for a long
| time, it's Dvorak but flips back to QWERTY when you hold
| Command so that most shortcuts are in the same physical
| position.
|
| After getting a programmable split keyboard it became too much
| work to get a similar thing to work so I decided to switch
| shortcuts to where they should be.
|
| It's been... ok. The positions of shortcuts definitely encode
| something that you lose, copy/paste not being next to each
| other is slightly annoying, and not to mention that some
| shortcuts move in such a way that the failure mode of getting
| the shortcut wrong is really bad (e.g. Cmd+, for preferences,
| get it wrong and you Cmd+W which closes the active window).
|
| I'm glad I've switched, but I'm also glad that I didn't switch
| my shortcuts at the same time that I switched to Dvorak, I
| think it could have been enough to put me off. Or I guess it
| might have been easier to do it all at once!
|
| One thing that is annoying with the hybrid approach is some
| software just doesn't support it (I'm looking at you JetBrains,
| with your 10 year old issue on your issue tracker).
| samus wrote:
| The AutoHotkey Script I use on Windows works very well in
| almost all applications. But in IntelliJ on Windows (not in
| Linux) it happens multiple times per hour that Shift, Ctrl or
| Alt locks get engaged (which I didn't know even existed) or
| that the Script reverts to Qwerty without warning. Restarting
| the script helps, but it's so annoying that I consider
| running IntelliJ with an external JRE.
| samus wrote:
| Result: running IntelliJ with an external JDK didn't help
| :/
| melling wrote:
| Xah first wrote this over a decade ago.
|
| He's had some RSI issues, and the real problem is simply typing
| in any form.
|
| I remember reading several of his articles thinking that surely
| within a decade, we'd have better voice assist for programming.
|
| Tavis Rudd's demo looked promising in 2013:
|
| https://youtu.be/8SkdfdXWYaI
|
| I'm not sure what's the best solution. Here are a few that I
| known of:
|
| https://serenade.ai/
|
| https://talonvoice.com/
|
| https://voxhub.io/silvius
| jeromenerf wrote:
| I use Dvorak on keyboards and qwerty on touch screens. I am
| pretty happy with both, but it doesn't matter a lot regarding my
| eventual wrist or tendinitis pain.
|
| What's is important for me is drinking water sufficiently,
| regular exercise, a good posture, a good keyboard then finally
| the layout.
|
| I picked up Dvorak for no real reason 10 years ago; I kept up
| with it but would not really recommend it, specially because of
| its intense reliance on the right pinky.
|
| I don't know much about Colemak.
| arafa wrote:
| Seems like a pretty good analysis. I've been using Dvorak for 20+
| years also. The keyboard shortcuts thing is annoying, though I
| hadn't heard about the wrist strain they cause. I didn't see this
| discussed, but I actually find the fact that Colemak shares more
| keys with QWERTY to be a problem for learning if you already know
| QWERTY (even though that might be the biggest strength). Dvorak
| only shares the "A" and "M" with QWERTY, but typing those letters
| always confused my brain the most when learning, and sometimes
| I'd fall right back into QWERTY in a really frustrating way.
|
| I switched to Dvorak because of wrist strain/RSI issues. I was in
| pretty serious wrist pain and now I rarely have any. It probably
| wouldn't have been worth it otherwise, but that was a huge
| benefit to me. I'm not sure if other things would've helped since
| I didn't try a lot of other approaches first.
| toyg wrote:
| _> I switched to Dvorak because of wrist strain /RSI issues._
|
| I did the same with Colemak, and had the same effect. I think
| the main thing really is just to _not use qwerty_ - that layout
| is just extrarodinarily unergonomic.
|
| It probably also helped that, around the same time I switched
| to Colemak, I took an interest in overall keyboard ergonomics,
| and invested in a split keyboard.
| odiroot wrote:
| I'm a happy user of Colemak for over a year. Although it took me
| a few months to get used to it.
|
| One disadvantage though is, now I have trouble typing on QWERTY.
| aendruk wrote:
| I've been happily using Colemak for 10+ years but recently
| decided to give Halmak [1] a try. Only a month in so I'm still
| slow, but it feels really good.
|
| For programming, though, the best decision I've made was to add a
| numpad and common symbols [2] under a second "shift" key to keep
| my hands on the home row.
|
| [1]: https://github.com/MadRabbit/halmak
|
| [2]: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/+qit9y6o8uodxpiqezpxcaw7css6gtfkp
| valarauko wrote:
| Does anybody have recommendations for a layout that works well
| for a split keyboard (Moonlander, in my case, as and when it
| arrives)? Learning a split configuration will require work, so
| may as well learn a better layout at the same time.
| rgoulter wrote:
| In terms of layering and fancy keyboard behaviours? The miryoku
| layout has a lot of very good ideas that are worth copying.
| https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku/blob/master/README....
| jagger27 wrote:
| I'm currently typing this from a split QWERTY keyboard (KBDFans
| Maja). As someone who has tried and failed to switch to both
| Colemak and Dvorak over the years, learning to type on split is
| much, much easier. You'll smack your fingers into the gap where
| T/Y, G/H (assuming QWERTY) should be a few times and get used
| to it really quick.
| bambambazooka wrote:
| I've been using Colemak on a Ergodox since September of last
| year and am very happy with it. I too switched to Colemak when
| I started using my Ergodox. The first weeks my head hurt, but
| now I'm fine.
| michelledepeil wrote:
| I tried dvorak on the moonlander (and have typed dvorak for a
| looong time before that on regular keebs), but ended up going
| back to qwerty, and using a layer for the punctuation
| surrounding the letters. This way you make the most use of the
| linear layout in the up-down direction, but avoid too much
| sideways movement and pinky stretching. Check it out here:
| https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/MJXZ4/latest/0
|
| You might move the punctuation even more central to really keep
| it 4-columned.
| CarVac wrote:
| I use dvorak on an ergo board.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| Every layout is fine for a split - even QWERTY, as bad, as it
| is. Just don't switch to a new keyboard and new layout
| simultaneously. I've done it for Kinesis and Colemak - it is
| hard. You can't reliably hit a key on the new keyboard, because
| of the lack of staggering, new thumb cluster and different
| distance between keys. But when you hit one, it is a wrong one,
| because Colemak.
|
| In general, however, it is not a problem. Just remember, that
| adjusting yourself to a new keyboard is similar to learning
| layout and takes some time. If it is your first ortholinear
| split with a thumb cluster give yourself a week or two and then
| switch to other layout.
| valarauko wrote:
| > _Just don 't switch to a new keyboard and new layout
| simultaneously_
|
| Why is that? Is it the productivity hit? Frustration?
|
| At least for me, this will be at home personal keyboard, and
| I'll continue to use the work QWERTY keyboard for the
| foreseeable future. I might switch the work keyboard once I'm
| comfortable, but it's not a priority right now.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| Productivity hit and frustration, I would say. Motor
| learning is hard, since it takes a lot of repetitions.
| Motor re-learning is arguably much harder, since you have
| an interference of learned and new patterns. Keyboard
| familiarity is also heavily depending on motor learning -
| distance between keys, their position, height and so on. So
| you just have more to learn at the same time.
|
| I also have another warning, based on my experience: it is
| for many people difficult to keep proficiency in QWERTY
| after they completely switch to Colemak or Dvorak. It is
| hard to describe: like you've been touch-typing on QWERTY
| for 18 years, and you know where the keys are, because if
| you look down, you immediately find them... but something
| is blocking you from finding them while typing. If you
| switch completely at work, find a week or two without much
| stress. New layout can be infuriating enough :)
| cvdub wrote:
| I use colemak on the Kinesis Advantage II and I love it.
|
| Keeping the C-c/x/v keys the same is great on a split layout,
| assuming you're right handed. I avoid using the mouse as much
| as possible, but when I do use it there's a good chance I'm
| copying or pasting something. With Dvorak you can't use those
| keys with your hand on the mouse.
| Cu3PO42 wrote:
| I use Neo2 [1] on a Moonlander. I find it works really well.
| Neo2's distinguishing feature is that there are built-in layers
| that contain special characters, such as those used for
| programming, control characters, including a numpad, Pos1/End,
| ... and also many mathematical symbols for significantly faster
| TeXing.
|
| What makes it such a good fit, in my opinion, is that the
| modifiers can be placed on the thumb clusters, and even layers
| 5 and 6 that otherwise require a combination of modifiers can
| have their own keys. On the other hand, having all control
| characters already mapped means you needn't find a good
| location for them anywhere. I still have 5 keys unmapped.
|
| That said, getting used to the Moonlander took almost no effort
| at all for me, I was back up to speed in a few days.
|
| [1] https://neo-layout.org/
| adrianN wrote:
| Every layout works for a split layout just as well as for a
| normal layout. You're not supposed to move your hands around
| either way.
| toyg wrote:
| This is the right answer. With proper touchtyping technique,
| the split does not matter.
|
| I use Colemak with my Kinesis split keyboards but that's
| irrelevant.
| valarauko wrote:
| I'm sure that's true, though as a person who currently hunts
| & pecks, even touch typing would be an upgrade. I'm trying to
| roll all of the improvements to my typing behaviour into a
| single month of hell :)
| marshallward wrote:
| It would have helped if they compared Dvorak to Colemak mod dh
| variant. It addresses many of the issues raised here by moving D
| below T and H below N, and moving the more rare K and G as left-
| right motions.
| messo wrote:
| As long as you do not use QWERTY, you'll be fine :)
|
| I have used Colemak for the last 12 years and have never looked
| back. I started learning Dvorak, but at the time I was using the
| ctrl+Z/C/V quite much and Colemak became my compromise. Now that
| I use Vim, the argument about the Z/C/V is not as important
| anymore. EDIT: Oh, I also used the Q/W (quit, close window) quite
| much back then because I was using a mac. Still use these in Sway
| to this day.
|
| I also really like that there is a Norwegian Colemak-layout
| available in Linux by default. Not sure if this is the case in
| Windows or macOS these days, but it wasn't 12 years ago.
| sourcevault wrote:
| meh, kids use Colemak / Dvorak, it's time to upgrade.
|
| My current 'superior' keyboard layout :
|
| https://sourcevault.github.io/resume/key10.png
| opan wrote:
| I used dvorak for about a year and a half. I had a lot of fun,
| but my old left hand pain (qwerty) became right hand pain, and
| the right hand pain was worse. I got a split keyboard, and that
| alone didn't seem to help.
|
| Now I'm a couple months into using workman, which notably has a
| very balanced hand usage. About 50/50, unlike qwerty which is
| mostly left, or dvorak which is mostly right. IIRC colemak and
| qgmlwb are similarly unbalanced, as it's not a goal of theirs to
| fix that.
|
| My best speed in qwerty was about 160, I got to the 140s in
| dvorak, and I'm 100-110 in workman at the moment.
|
| I'm not sure if I'll switch again. The balanced hand usage is a
| rare trait. If not for that issue, I was thinking of trying the
| halmak layout.
|
| I'm a little sad that workman is qwerty-like since I'd already
| bothered to unlearn that with dvorak, and so I had no qualms
| about most keys being different. I actually get some weird typos
| now, like typing "sad" instead of "saw" because of similar
| placement to qwerty on the left.
|
| I also change the layout on my phone with anysoftkeyboard. I've
| had at least 3 people tell me it's pointless on a touchscreen,
| but I like the consistency, and the layouts were already made and
| easy to switch to.
|
| If you use colemak, I hear the mod-dh variant is better, but
| workman solves the same problem, so I'd recommend just using it
| if you aren't already years into colemak.
| nashashmi wrote:
| I can't get pass breaking keyboard shortcuts with new keyboards.
| If only there was a way to revert to QWERTY when ctrl alt win
| were pressed
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