[HN Gopher] A reading list for new engineering managers
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A reading list for new engineering managers
Author : gHeadphone
Score : 76 points
Date : 2021-04-10 16:40 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (jacobian.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (jacobian.org)
| epicureanideal wrote:
| In my experience, most managers don't bother reading books. If
| they've read ANY books on management, that's above average. More
| than 1 in the past year, they're already highly unusual. Usually
| they get their position through knowing people or being slavishly
| obedient even in ways that are destructive to long term value.
| seneca wrote:
| > In my experience, most managers don't bother reading books...
| Usually they get their position through knowing people or being
| slavishly obedient...
|
| That's odd. I've spent much of my career in engineering
| leadership, and I'd estimate 75% or more of the managers I've
| worked with read books to a degree I would categorize as
| obsessive. This has been true across half a dozen companies. Do
| you usually work for software companies? Maybe outside the US?
| I'm curious how we could have such opposite experiences.
|
| We certainly agree that it's a mark of a good manager.
| watwut wrote:
| For whatever is worth it, my experience with managers was
| definitely not "obsessive reader". Some read books very
| rarely, others once in a while.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Best advice I would have to give is to simply... be an engineer
| yourself before attempting to manage some.
|
| The best engineering managers I've met were simply brilliant
| engineers, that inspired devs around them and starting managing
| without having the official tittle: folks would naturally come to
| them for guidance. The hardest part was to get them to accept
| that the scope of what they were working on simply went beyond
| one human's ability to code it himself. But I've seen them break
| out debuggers and debug issues right in the middle of meetings.
|
| On the other hand, I've met handful of "career managers" that
| weren't qualified as engineers and, well, frankly they didn't
| understand the engineering and got no respect out of the
| organization. No wonder Nadella, Pichai and Cook are all
| engineers.
| ingvul wrote:
| > be an engineer yourself before attempting to manage some
|
| I've seen this. 90% of the time, the company loses a good
| engineer and trades him for a mediocre manager. It's a lose-
| lose situation.
|
| Nowadays, managers are focused on 1on1s. Totally useless.
| hallway_monitor wrote:
| I used to think that. As long as I can write code when I need
| to and I can inform designs and architectures, my company
| gets all the benefit of my programming skills as well as my
| team building skills.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| What have you seen that worked best?
| sdesol wrote:
| > be an engineer yourself before attempting to manage some
|
| I honestly think this is a luxury for a lot of companies that
| are trying to transform themselves into a tech company.
|
| When I took time off from my first failed startup attempt, I
| ended up working for a fintech and it was obvious that a lot of
| the "tech managers" were not technical people themselves. The
| challenge for this fintech, which had close to 1 trillion
| dollars in assets, is they couldn't really attract engineering
| managers and they had to make do with the people they had.
|
| This is why "engineering metrics" is currently gaining a lot of
| steam. A lot of managers and organizations are suddenly finding
| themselves having to manage techies and they are desperately
| looking for ways to compensate for the fact that they aren't
| tech people themselves. This is why when companies see
| solutions like GitPrime, GitHub Insights, and other similar
| solutions, they get very excited because they feel they found
| that magical translator that can help them better manage tech
| employees.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| > they couldn't really attract engineering managers and they
| had to make do with the people they had.
|
| How comes?
|
| > A lot of managers and organizations are suddenly finding
| themselves having to manage techies and they are desperately
| looking for ways to compensate for the fact that they aren't
| tech people themselves.
|
| There are now MBAs that are tailored specially for that [0].
| If people think they can just eyeball it with "Engineering
| metrics", they should read this [1].
|
| [0] https://cs.stanford.edu/academics/joint-degree-
| programs/join...
|
| [1] https://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Negative_2000
| _Li...
| sdesol wrote:
| > How comes?
|
| Politics, workers rights and so forth. You really can't
| just fire hundreds and potentially thousands of employees
| without cause. A lot of companies will have to provide a
| career path for many of these managers.
|
| > If people think they can just eyeball it with
| "Engineering metrics", they should read this
|
| I think we both know this, along with many people here at
| HN, but HN doesn't reflect what I've personally seen. I'm
| trying to advocate for "Developer First Software Metrics",
| which is what my tool is focused on, but I've had far too
| many conversations with potential customers that wants to
| sum up a developers worth with a simple chart.
|
| In the business world, we don't assume business
| intelligence will come easy, which is why we hire business
| intelligence specialist. However for engineering metrics,
| this attitude isn't quite there yet and many and I mean
| many companies with non-traditional tech backgrounds want
| to believe they can easily quantify a developers worth with
| superficial metrics. Because in a lot of ways, they see
| developers like factory workers, where their unit of work
| can be easily quantified.
| olah_1 wrote:
| Seems like there would be a benefit to having a manager that is
| actually further from the problem itself. Less precious about
| details and more focused on universal principles.
|
| What ex-engineer managers had was respect for the craft itself.
| You can respect the work of the team without doing it in the
| past.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| I used to assume that. Until I met folks who seemed to be
| able to switch from micro details to macro "big picture"
| rather seamlessly. The extreme example of that is a Gates
| review[0]. Maybe that's why John Sculley never stood a
| chance.
|
| It's more than respect for the craft, it's understanding the
| problem space.
|
| [0] https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/06/16/my-first-billg-
| rev...
| olah_1 wrote:
| That sounds like a different role to me. I think we're
| talking about different things. Product Managers vs
| managing the work flow / engineering work.
|
| That was a funny read, thanks.
| 908B64B197 wrote:
| Product managers should never manage engineers, period.
| nojito wrote:
| Those aren't managers.
|
| Those are ICs who are forced to take management roles for
| compensation increases.
|
| The best managers haven't coded in a long time and instead grew
| their management skills.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| krona wrote:
| I admit I haven't read many books on the subject but _Managing
| Humans_ is the only one that was interesting /entertaining enough
| for me to recommend to anyone.
| occz wrote:
| I've read both a few of the negotiation books (Getting to yes,
| Getting past no) and Five Dysfunctions and I don't know that I'd
| recommend them, to be honest.
|
| My beef with Five Dysfunctions is primarily the book recommending
| MBTI. MBTI has the predictive value of horoscopes, more or less.
| Really hard to take anything said seriously at that point.
|
| The negotiation-series has some value, and has helped me succeed
| in some negotiations, but I'd honestly recommend Never split the
| difference as a substitute. Having read that book instead would
| probably have saved me more than a few poor outcomes in
| negotiations.
|
| Finally I'd like to recommend Peopleware - surely one of - if not
| the definitively - best book I've read for professional purposes.
| zwayhowder wrote:
| MBTI and the dozens of alternatives aren't gospel, but they are
| a useful way of framing some conversations, especially when the
| people have no other shared framework to come from.
|
| I'm much rather someone tells me they are a an ENTJ than a
| Virgo. At least the ENTJ will understand sometimes they need to
| change their approach unlike the Virgo who (in my experience)
| says "this is how I behave and you can't do anything about it
| because it's the universe".
| mike555 wrote:
| I've read five dysfunctions and can't say I remember anything
| about personality types (MBTI). To me it was about persistence
| honesty and pragmatism. Loved it.
| occz wrote:
| It's mentioned both in the fable-part and the epilogue.
| davideous wrote:
| Five Dysfunctions of a Team completely was absolutely
| revolutionary for me and my team. It's not about MBTI at all,
| but MBTI is just a tool it mentions to help with dysfunction
| one.
|
| Here are the five dysfunctions:
|
| The foundational dysfunction is a lack of trust -- trust
| defined as belief that your skill weaknesses and deficiencies
| will not be used against you. So people conceal weaknesses and
| don't ask for help from each other, etc.
|
| This leads to fear of (healthy, productive) conflict -- you
| don't hash things out, but rather any meaningful discussion
| gets suppressed. Creates an environment where back-channeling
| and politics thrive, etc.
|
| This leads to lack of commitment -- the team has not really had
| heathy, productive conflict/discussion so they don't buy into
| decisions. There is ambiguity about direction and priorities.
|
| This leads to avoidance of accountability.
|
| This leads to inattention to results.
|
| Here's a high-level overview:
| https://www.executiveagenda.com/application/files/3215/6401/...
| occz wrote:
| As mentioned - I have read the book, and I'm not opposed to
| the some of the ideas in the book. However, the endorsement
| of MBTI is just really damn hard for me to swallow.
| davideous wrote:
| Fair enough.
|
| In your earlier comment you mentioned:
|
| > MBTI has the predictive value of horoscopes, more or less
|
| My understanding of MBTI is that it's not supposed to be
| predictive, but it helps you understand a different
| person's preferences or view-point. Preferences don't
| necessarily predict behavior.
|
| Understanding the J vs P preference difference was
| revolutionary early in my marriage. I'm P and my wife is J,
| and our different preferences on that dimension helped
| explain much of our conflict. And understanding her
| preference helped me be more considerate and loving to her.
| MBTI helped me understand her (not predict her).
|
| When I read a description of an MBTI type for someone I
| know really well, about half of it rings true -- but then
| reading and talking through it together sparks a great
| conversation where we learn a lot about each other.
|
| The book does recommend using a qualified MBTI
| coach/trainer, so that it's not mis-used.
|
| Hope this $0.02 is helpful.
| krallja wrote:
| One thing not on the list: where do you find the space to read
| all these books?
| pjmorris wrote:
| I keep a Kindle and a physical book or two on my nightstand. I
| sometimes read before bed, and sometimes read once I've woken
| in the middle of the night. The Kindle also goes with me on any
| kind of trip.
|
| I also take time to read every morning. I wonder at people who
| find time to exercise, but I guess I shouldn't as the reading
| tends to take the place of exercise. Time is there, it's what
| we decide to do with it where the battle lies.
| epicureanideal wrote:
| Usually I find that if I have a problem to solve and I see a
| book that might help me solve it, I become very motivated to
| read it.
|
| When that happens repeatedly, pretty soon it starts to seem
| like a good idea (and creates motivation) to read related books
| in advance.
| nojito wrote:
| All you need is 30 minutes a day.
|
| It's simply creating a habit of reading.
| kmtrowbr wrote:
| Each minute that you read per day, equals about 1 book per
| year. So if you read 20 minutes per day, you will read around
| 20 books per year.
|
| A bookstand such as
| https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MVBDIPU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b...
| is helpful to hold the book on the table where you eat. This
| way whenever you sit down, the book is open and ready to go.
|
| Books are simply a media format like a podcast or a movie. The
| only difference is that, they are pure language, and it
| requires a bit more from you to read, than it does to listen or
| watch. Reading is a bit more "active." However the pure
| language, and the active reading, makes them really dense and
| effective for communicating ideas. The "ideas per minute" is
| very high for books.
|
| If you are a software developer, you're already a writer in
| some sense. Books therefore I see as very familiar for
| developers.
| occz wrote:
| Some options:
|
| - Audiobooks, while: - Exercising - Commuting - Performing
| mundane everyday tasks. My favorite is doing the dishes and
| throwing out the trash. - If your organisation values
| continuous learning, dedicate 30 minutes each workday for
| reading. It will pay off for the organisation, but not all
| organisations comprehend that, unfortunately. - Dedicate 30
| minutes outside your workday for reading, if you think you can
| derive enough value from it to be worth it. This requires some
| personal evaluation, and is the last option on the list for
| good reason - it is easily the least good option in my opinion.
| stunt wrote:
| Use a time-sheet to record your activities for the next two
| weeks. It will help you to find the space you need to read
| regularly.
| Ozzie_osman wrote:
| I used to read physical books.
|
| Then I started using Kindle devices, which were a lot less
| enjoyable but more more convenient (can carry anywhere, get
| books instantly) and my reading time increased dramatically.
|
| Then I started using the Kindle app on my phone, which was even
| less enjoyable but even more convenient and accessible, and now
| I easily do 30-60 minutes each day (time I could've easily
| spent lost in social media).
| BlackjackCF wrote:
| Will Larson's An Elegant Puzzle is the best book on management
| specifically tailored for engineering managers.
|
| I find most management books to be useful in terms of thinking
| about general people management.
|
| I had takeaways from An Elegant Puzzle that I could directly
| apply to my day to day work. That's more valuable than anything
| else.
| egwor wrote:
| Link for others: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Elegant-Puzzle-
| Systems-Engineering-...
| splittingTimes wrote:
| Totally agree on Manager Tools. Great stuff.
|
| The best book on the topic for me was peopleware [1].
|
| Radical candor [2] was something I started but only got to the
| first 50 pages. Was also good.
|
| ===
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.de/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-
| Teams-3...
|
| [2] https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Kim-
| Scott/dp/1529038340/ref=mp_s_...
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