[HN Gopher] My Son, the Organ Donor
___________________________________________________________________
My Son, the Organ Donor
Author : dsr12
Score : 120 points
Date : 2021-04-09 17:54 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (kimmoldofsky.medium.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (kimmoldofsky.medium.com)
| aaomidi wrote:
| Organ donor should be opt out, not opt in.
| lordnacho wrote:
| IIRC I heard they were doing this in the UK, at least I heard
| something about it on the radio.
|
| I think it's the right default, most people won't mind donating
| and those who do are generally more motivated to fill out the
| opt out docs.
| newbie578 wrote:
| Absolutely agreed! Make it whenever people get their driver's
| license, they must make an opt out form.
| thepete2 wrote:
| I disagree. Instead it should be mandatory to choose. Make it a
| condition for getting a driver's license or even your ID.
| AdamJacobMuller wrote:
| > mandatory to choose
|
| That's a contradiction. If it's mandatory, it's not a choice.
|
| What makes you feel you have the right to tell others they
| should be forced to donate their organs?
| Zanni wrote:
| Not mandatory to donate. Mandatory to make an explicit
| choice of whether to donate or not (neither opt-out nor
| opt-in).
| jimmyswimmy wrote:
| I believe GP was suggesting that making a decision should
| be mandatory at some point. While I personally prefer the
| default here be to opt in as a donor, GP suggested merely
| that a decision as to yes or no should be required.
|
| Where I live, one must state organ donor preference when
| obtaining a driver's license. I believe the default answer
| is no if you choose not to choose.
| [deleted]
| renewiltord wrote:
| I am glad there are people like this. For my part, I am not an
| organ donor intentionally. I stopped being one when I realized I
| (and my kin) would be the only ones not getting paid in the
| following chain:
|
| 1. Me (body)
|
| 2. Organ Procurement Organization
|
| 3. Hospital + Insurer
|
| 4. Organ Transplant Team
|
| Each time I get a new licence I check the box in a moment of
| weakness and have to go opt-out again. Over the next year, I hope
| to write down a fee schedule and a quick-to-sign contract that
| will hopefully bring down the friction to get my organs down to
| 15 min after my death for someone who can pay appropriately.
|
| If anyone else is working on ways to bypass anti-organ-sale laws,
| I'd love it if we could work together. Email in profile.
| weird-eye-issue wrote:
| What the
| renewiltord wrote:
| Is it irrelevant or something? It felt relevant on this
| article and considering this is a startup site.
|
| I don't mean to diminish the benefit of watching another
| young man being able to run and live with the heart of one's
| child in him but merely to ensure that some part of the value
| chain comes to rest where the person providing a crucial
| piece intended.
|
| EDIT-Response since I'm now rate-limited.
|
| User psychometry: I am not complaining about the downvotes,
| to be clear. I don't mind being voted down by people who
| disagree with me since that is how this platform is intended
| to be used. I would prefer not to because it makes what I say
| hard to see but if the community believes it doesn't fit,
| then it doesn't fit. This comment was intended to be a
| request for clarification from this guy, but if no one wants
| to share that's also okay. I won't be very upset. It is a
| sunny day in San Francisco with no traffic. I will go for a
| ride and if I am to die on my motorcycle, my organs will rot.
| That is unfortunate, but perhaps if that happens a year from
| now, they will instead be of use, and my family will be
| wealthier by some small measure.
| psychometry wrote:
| You're getting downvoted into oblivion because you wrote an
| astonishingly selfish and moronic screed because of some
| kind of weird financial code you apparently live by. Truly
| bizarre.
| aketchum wrote:
| I'm sorry, what? Are you saying aren't an organ donor because
| your family would not get paid for it? How would you value the
| organs? Do you believe having the ability to pay for an organ
| makes one more morally deserving to live?
| exolymph wrote:
| I think your motivations are different from most who are open
| to having their organs used to save others' lives.
| Blahah wrote:
| All the other entities are doing work - of course they need to
| be paid. You are dead, you're doing nothing. Why would you be
| paid?
| renewiltord wrote:
| Ah, for the same reason that you pay someone's estate for
| their land rather than just take it for the good of everyone.
| We do not consider one's remains the property of one's
| estate, strictly. We only recognize one's right to interment
| or alternative disposal to be executed by one's kin etc. I
| believe this is wrong. I have spent quite a few decades
| growing me and ownership of this body must rest more strongly
| with my estate than any other possession I have.
|
| In keeping with that, I intend to retain the right to
| disposal of this possession as I see fit.
|
| EDIT-response:
|
| user munk-a: I think I am content to have my body treated
| just as other property that I have owned in my life. If
| inheritance laws prohibit inheriting property but permit
| putting it in a never-dying trust, then I will prefer that my
| body be treated as such. If all property is transferred to
| the state upon death, then so be it for my body. I am not
| anti-social. I merely have this one (apparently peculiar)
| view on ownership of one's body.
| munk-a wrote:
| Actually, personally, I despise all inheritance related
| laws - I understand the historical origin of them and they
| did make quite a bit of sense but in this modern world I
| think the only thing that inheritance does is degrade any
| attempts we might make at moving more toward a meritocracy.
|
| Then again I was strongly influenced by Longhouse
| traditions growing up and also feel rather neutral on
| private property ownership in general.
| ProAm wrote:
| I'd love to see the social media or technology you willingly
| use and donate information to that allows others to get rich
| off your non-compensated usage.
| dougmwne wrote:
| Good lord. A capitalist to the end. Do your next of kin even
| want the proceeds from the sale of your remains?
| renewiltord wrote:
| I intend to set it up so that, should they refuse the
| proceeds, the money is spent in a manner I feel is optimal.
| For instance, if I were to be able to sell my heart for $100k
| to a rich industrialist's son, then that's 101 lives saved (1
| from the heart, 100 from GiveWell's current best).
|
| I believe that I will spend the money better than the rich
| industrialist, so it makes sense for me to back me over him.
|
| EDIT-response:
|
| User dougmwne: Thank you. I do actually have life insurance.
| That is only sensible considering I ride a motorcycle. I do
| not disagree that professionals performing a professional
| duty should be permitted the right to charge for their
| services.
|
| I think, if transplant surgery were not a protected
| employment category I would be content to give my organs for
| free to those not operating in the for-profit system and
| charge (as raw materials) those who operate in the for-profit
| system. It's no different from your surgeon charging you for
| your hip implant. Someone gets paid for manufacturing that
| hip implant. I merely want to get paid for manufacturing this
| heart.
| dougmwne wrote:
| Or you could buy life insurance like the rest of us!
| Upvotes for the lateral thinking though and since your
| downvoters are treating it like the disagree button. I
| don't think you deserved to have the post deleted. My
| fundamental disagreement is that I think the staff and
| professionals that carry out the donation process and
| medical procedures are completely worthy of their pay and
| that the recipients pay for the medical procedure, not the
| materials. If they paid market rate for the organs, these
| lifesaving procedures would be even more out of reach.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| That sounds like an incredibly selfish decision; for-profit
| healthcare is the reality in the United States (where I'm
| guessing you're from), so why deny others that benefit just
| because of the system?
| eCa wrote:
| If you were in a life-or-death situation, would you accept an
| organ without paying the donor's family an appropiate fee?
| temp667 wrote:
| It's very interesting - sort of like college athletics.
| Everyone makes good to insane money - except the people taking
| the big health risks and/or putting in the hours.
|
| A lot of moral outrage at the idea here though usually from
| folks getting rich off the industry.
|
| There have been proposals to do something like $10 - $20K for a
| liver. The way to get around the outrage mob is usually to
| point out the health risks, impacts on life a quality of life
| etc.
|
| In short, if you were in a car crash and lost a liver, you'd be
| getting a big pay day for those things.
|
| Normal split is 1/3 or so to hospital, and 2/3 kept by donor
| network admins I think for the fees they charge for Organ
| acquisition. Donor Network West in CA does $90M a year or so I
| think? I'm not sure what annual fees are nationally, I'd expect
| in the 100's of millions range (this does not include all the
| costs to actual do the transplant).
|
| That said, any discussion on this type of topic tends to
| attract of one liner type attacks from the outrage folks - so
| not usually worth having.
|
| But folks are thinking about how to dramatically increase donor
| rates because it is so impactful. Other options have been to
| pay $100 - 500/year you list as a donor etc which would save
| incredible numbers of lives at what is relatively low cost. I
| heard one funny idea which was to do this for folks who get M
| class licenses (motorcycles). The idea was to both scare them
| about the risks of riding a motorcycles and of course they
| really are more likely to be a donor per mile riden (I'm a
| rider, and the stats are actually terrible in contrast to other
| things people worry about)
| bigwavedave wrote:
| > The way to get around the outrage mob is usually to point
| out the health risks, impacts on life a quality of life etc.
|
| I'm confused- we're talking about post-mortem organ
| donation... What quality of life are you referring to?
| Quality of life for living donors? How does that apply in a
| discussion where the donors have passed away?
| temp667 wrote:
| Post mortem the arguments are even easier then.
|
| More organ donors would be a good thing, give folks $100
| one time gift card for signing up - you'd have a ton of
| folks do that and the cost is tiny.
|
| Maybe $2,500 to help with funeral expenses if you scoop all
| their organs out and sell them for $2.6M (that's probably
| average billed charges for a heart / kidney transplant).
|
| Reality - the folks with the money (transplant surgeons,
| athletic directors in colleges) and their supporters here
| will NEVER share with the folks running around on courts
| and fields (college athletes) or providing the organs or
| whatever. You actually see this pattern over and over,
| usually with a fair bit of suffering on the side (folks not
| able to get transplants, injured college athletes etc).
| thanatos519 wrote:
| What an American sentiment.
| brbsix wrote:
| I don't think that's an American sentiment. I've heard people
| cite religious reasons or conspiratorial suspicions about
| being left to die in the hospital after suffering a serious
| injury, but nothing even remotely echoing what OP posted.
|
| I'd prefer not to name specific countries, but there are
| certain overseas markets with thriving black market organ
| trades. That is what first came to mind when OP expressed the
| desire that his family be compensated for his organs.
| Considering some of these cultures have arguably similar
| existing customs (e.g. intentionally killing a pedestrian
| that you have accidentally injured but offering the family a
| large sum of money in exchange for silence) what the OP
| stated may not be considered unreasonable to someone looking
| at the world through that lens.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Certainly I would have found this position harder to justify
| when I was covered by the NHS. It is likely that I would
| remain an organ donor there since everyone is pulling
| together and I wouldn't want to be the one getting in the
| way.
|
| EDIT: Oh and some of you have asked me questions. This
| platform has now blocked me from responding for some
| duration, presumably to stop flamebait or troll threads
| (neither of which is what I was up to). I am happy to
| continue this conversation over email (in profile) or
| alternatively I can have a vaccinated representative meet you
| in person in San Francisco to discuss over coffee.
| munk-a wrote:
| I was hoping the OP comment would be flagged dead rather
| quickly, but this was essentially my response too. I
| emigrated from the US to Canada purely because of this
| pervasive mentality that "I can't suffer you to benefit
| unless I'm getting something out of the deal". It isn't held
| by everyone in America or even the majority as far as I've
| seen - but what's weird is that in the US that view is
| socially acceptable and that's pretty horrifying to me.
|
| Not everything in life is a transaction where you're either
| the winner or the loser. Trying to measure things in that
| manner will lead you to lose out on a lot of joy.
| temp667 wrote:
| The issue is that you are supporting a bunch of for profit
| businesses making an absolute killing, while not even
| throwing table scraps to the key players, the donors.
|
| If someone is going to harvest my Organs and get paid
| $800K+ per year (California Transplant Surgeon's probably
| average $750K and some are making $2-3M/year) it's really
| hard to swallow your and their morally superior tone.
| munk-a wrote:
| Hey - I absolutely applaud you if you're going to help
| tear down the private portions of the organ trade
| business. It should be a publicly managed service like
| healthcare in general - but for now this is what we're
| stuck with and a lot of innocent lives are on the line.
|
| I think that, in the long run, it's pretty immoral to
| throw table scraps at the donors since it'll create some
| very perverse market incentives to make certain your
| organ isn't "being wasted" on some penniless orphan
| somewhere.
|
| I decided to leave insane American wages behind for a
| society that cares more about egalitarianism - that isn't
| solving the problem but it's the best contribution I can
| personally make.
| particulars02 wrote:
| Whoa. To each their own, I guess. Maybe next time just say it
| conflicts with your beliefs?
| antattack wrote:
| That's why it's called donation.
| crummy wrote:
| > Over the next year, I hope to write down a fee schedule and a
| quick-to-sign contract that will hopefully bring down the
| friction to get my organs down to 15 min after my death for
| someone who can pay appropriately.
|
| Folks, this a joke. Take it easy.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| pseudolus wrote:
| Remarks from his memorial service by his mother:
|
| https://themakermom.com/2020/02/isaac-moldofsky-mom-eulogy.h...
| annoyingnoob wrote:
| I wasn't expecting the emotional response I just got from that.
| Thank you for your story, sorry for your loss.
|
| My father was the recipient of a lung transplant. It saved his
| life and enabled him to meet all of his grandchildren. We are
| forever grateful to the donor that allowed Dad to live.
| cloud5ir wrote:
| I'm so sorry for your loss. Thank you so much for sharing. Love
| seeing stuff like this on HN. You can also be a living donor and
| donate part of your liver, lung, etc.
|
| https://instagram.com/kevinsjourneytolivertransplant,
| https://www.facebook.com/kmprue/
|
| https://www.ynhh.org/services/transplantation/become-an-orga...
| asadlionpk wrote:
| I checked that box on my recent DL renewal (against my family's
| wish). The moving send off photo in the article confirms I made
| the right choice.
| WalterBright wrote:
| I figure the worms will eat me anyway, so why not be an organ
| donor?
|
| I don't find any comfort in visiting the gravesites of
| relatives, either. Whatever made them what they were isn't
| there. My father once told me that a dead body is like a house
| with nobody home. That's how I feel about it, too.
| asadlionpk wrote:
| Your father is right. I would still visit the gravesite to
| remind myself of death in general. I imagine it helps ground
| me, prioritize things, etc.
| input_sh wrote:
| > (against my family's wish)
|
| Where I'm from they're gonna ask my family for confirmation
| regardless. Fortunately for me they're okay with it.
| asadlionpk wrote:
| They will still honor it. But it's understandably hard for
| them to even think about at it right now.
| munk-a wrote:
| There is a lot of mysticism around our bodies once we pass on -
| and when that happens we've lost all the ability to bask in the
| honor of our act or receive the appreciation - but our bodies
| are also quite worthless to ourselves at that point and can be
| of an immense value to others.
|
| Organ donation is a very sensitive subject since it can be
| viewed as losing the coherence of all that remains of someone,
| but the benefits to others can be extreme. This particular
| story involved someone getting a heart transplant and, while it
| was surely a loss that this individual died, after they died
| they enabled another person who had a limited lease on life to
| get a lot more time out of something that would have decayed in
| the ground or be cremated.
| piyh wrote:
| I'm all for organ donation, but it's something we'll look
| back on in 60 years and marvel at how complicated and crude
| it was compared to growing new ones with the patient's own
| cells. In the mean time it's definitely a silver lining for
| those left behind.
| gumby wrote:
| Why would your family object? Among other reasons it's your
| body, not theirs, but apart from that by what basis would
| anyone choose to object to helping others in this way?
|
| Genuinely curious.
| [deleted]
| asadlionpk wrote:
| Death is already a difficult thing to think or talk about for
| your loved ones let alone harvesting the organs from your
| body.
| cortesoft wrote:
| > I grew those organs in my body, for my son. And now they're
| working inside the bodies of total strangers, supporting the
| lives of people I will probably never meet. Or possibly never
| hear from.
|
| Damn.
| Blahah wrote:
| I surprised myself by spontaneously shedding a tear as I read
| that sentence.
| NotSammyHagar wrote:
| That's a moving article. Hard to imagine facing this for my own
| kid.
|
| >I also learned that the care team doesn't just wheel the donor
| away. They send them off with an Honor Walk. The doctors and
| nurses who worked to keep my son's organs functioning at
| optimal levels joined local family, friends, and colleagues,
| packed shoulder-to-shoulder (pre-COVID) to line the short
| corridor from the ICU to the surgical suite for the ceremonial
| transport of my son's body.
| rideontime wrote:
| Anybody browsing the comments to get the gist of the article
| should click through to see this photo.
| mrclark411 wrote:
| I was going to just skip over this by reading the comments.
| Thank you for suggesting I go look. Extremely moving.
| gambiting wrote:
| "and managing hospital bills that would soon follow. The donor
| network takes over medical costs once a patient officially enters
| the program, but there was still the matter of the pricey care
| that preceded it."
|
| It never occurred to me that the American healthcare system is so
| ruthless that even if someone dies your family has to pay for
| your care. How absolutely cruel and awful.
| rectang wrote:
| Through inflicting financial pain, the US healthcare system is
| supposed to motivate consumers to seek out higher value,
| leading to competition and efficiency. But since medical
| services are a classic example of "market failure", all that's
| left is unavoidable pain.
| ncpa-cpl wrote:
| The country I live in has three healthcare systems: Public
| (Free), Social security (Payroll funded) and Private (Paid by
| yourself or your optional private insurance).
|
| The private one has the shortest waiting times and doctors
| are assigned less patients.
|
| Some things that have happened to me in the private system
| and I didnt like were:
|
| - Having to pay my bill about two hours after waking up from
| anesthesia. Literally signing the credit card receipts while
| on my hospital bed.
|
| - Another time, having to sign an IOU before being admitted,
| on the emergency room bed.
|
| - One of my doctors throwing away all my medical records,
| because "they were old and took too much space".
| munk-a wrote:
| DNRs are very common in America for a reason separate from the
| rest of the world - elsewhere they tend to be mostly a
| philosophical choice to minimize your own personal pain and
| cost on society. In America they primarily exist to shield
| family members from cost - it isn't uncommon for a funeral to
| be accompanied by a lot of additional stress because your
| father was kept alive for five additional days at a cost of
| 50k/day and suddenly the surviving family is trying to sort out
| grief, finding a quarter of a million dollars (or potentially
| sending the entire estate into bankruptcy) and the additional
| tens of thousands of dollars funerals cost.
|
| Death in America is pretty darn expensive.
|
| Edit: I'd clarify something - in the US (like almost
| everywhere) debt cannot be inherited alone. An estate can be
| declared bankrupt when someone dies and then debtors are
| limited to just taking chunks out of the estate to the best of
| their ability - but if shared property is held by the deceased
| then it can cause serious harm to inheritors. My favorite
| example is a multi-generational house which can force
| inheritors into debt to keep the roof over their head.
| gambiting wrote:
| >> in the US (like almost everywhere) debt cannot be
| inherited alone
|
| In Poland(where I'm from) it can. When my father died I
| basically had to make a choice within a few weeks of his
| death - either refuse the inheritance entirely, or accept it
| with all his known and unknown debts. The second options
| meaning that if someone comes to me in 10 years time saying
| "hey I have this paper signed by your dad 20 years ago saying
| he owes me a million dollars" well, I now legally owe this
| person a million dollars. There is no concept of an estate of
| the deceased that gets settled first before any inheritance
| is given out(if anything remains). No, you have to make a
| choice whether you accept everything(including debts) or
| literally nothing at all. And you have to make the choice
| quickly because you cannot manage _anything_ owned or related
| to the deceased(their bank accounts, mortgages etc) until you
| make the decision.
| stagger87 wrote:
| In general, in America, parents are not responsible for adult
| children's medical bills, even when on shared insurance.
| Managing != paying for out of her own pocket.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| I am kinda surprised at that part. Why would the family be
| responsible for his costs beyond what insurance would cover? It
| is not their debt.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _Why would the family be responsible for his costs_
|
| I think for the same reason that your family gets control of
| your assets. Neither transfer is deserved, but if you allow
| one then you have to also allow the other.
| kahrl wrote:
| No. Debt is never transferred from one family member to
| another unless agreed to contractually.
|
| If no will is drawn up, the estate will be transferred to
| the next-of-kin after all debts are settled.
| russh wrote:
| This may come as a surprise to you, as it did me...
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_responsibility_laws
| munk-a wrote:
| _Sorta_ - this issue is a bit more complex when it comes
| to shared property. If you live in a multi-generational
| home technically owned by your grandfather and he passes
| away then the house may be seized during any debt
| resolution or bankruptcy filing.
|
| Debts don't get passed on but they can eliminate the
| value of estates being transferred.
|
| I think it's perfectly legitimate to question whether any
| assets or debts should be transferred on death but right
| now society is such that some people will be depending on
| that inheritance since they're inheriting the roof that
| they've been living under all their life.
| shard wrote:
| Depends on the locale. As I understand it, in Korean law,
| both assets and debts are transferred to next of kin when
| one dies. Relatives of debtors have to go through a legal
| procedure to make sure that they don't become next-in-
| line for the debt when the debtor dies.
| kahrl wrote:
| I'm assuming she's referring to managing the bills which will
| need to be paid out of the son's estate.
| altcognito wrote:
| If you're over 18, the bill belongs to the adult, even if
| they are on their parents insurance.
| MattGaiser wrote:
| That is my thought. They can get what insurance will pay
| for but the dead person is the one who legally owes them.
| 65C816 wrote:
| Oh, you sweet, innocent child...
| chemeng wrote:
| Yeah, it's a complete mess too. It really depends on the
| situation. For adults, with their own coverage, most medical
| debts are covered by the deceased's estate until it is
| insolvent. Family members are not required to pay the debt
| (unless a spouse in a community property state) though the
| hospital/insurance companies will absolutely try to get you to
| pay.
|
| However, some states have laws that require adult children to
| pay the debts of their parents should they end up in a nursing
| home or similar.
| CobrastanJorji wrote:
| Wait until you hear about our funerary system.
| hycaria wrote:
| I opted out. For the sole reason that I don't think this planet
| lacks humans enough to justify prolonging some lifes more than
| their own bodies allowed them to.
|
| Also this article was too mellow for my taste.
| Chris2048 wrote:
| Why do you think the planet has too many humans? And why is a
| grown adult the best thing to eliminate?
| input_sh wrote:
| I signed up to become a donor a few months ago!
|
| I don't know if my organs will be used when I die, but I sure
| hope so. There's some sort of zen feeling knowing that my death
| may result in someone's life being saved or made easier. The
| decision was quite easy to make. That initial talk with my family
| was a bit of an awkward subject to bring up, but that's about the
| only unpleasant side to it.
| jerkstate wrote:
| Proud to be a registered organ donor after reading this. If you
| want to do something right now, you can donate blood every 8
| weeks. I just got a text message notification that my most recent
| donation (last Thursday) was just sent to a hospital, between
| reading the article and making this comment.
| zuppy wrote:
| full article: https://outline.com/t2H493
| dvirsky wrote:
| The part about the honor walk is really great. My father was
| killed in a terrorist attack 18 years ago and we were able to
| donate his organs (he was shot in the head so was brain dead but
| his body was mostly fine). It was in Israel and there wasn't
| anything ceremonious about it at the time. I signed the consent
| form, we were given some time to say goodbye, and that was it, we
| just went home and left him. It was around noon, and IIRC by
| evening his liver, lung and kidneys were already being
| transplanted.
|
| I have to say that it was comforting to know he saved lives. We
| got to meet two of the families of the people he saved. One was a
| Palestinian family, who came to visit us and were really
| wonderful given the circumstances. The other one we met was a 12
| year old boy who got a kidney, and as far as I know is still
| alive and kicking with part of my dad in him. That's incredible.
|
| None of this makes up for how awful losing my dad was, but
| knowing it also did some good in this world is a tiny comfort.
| cheeze wrote:
| I love articles like this. I wish there was an hn for articles.
| Not tech. Not some random lisp interpreter, but things like "The
| hunt for the death valley germans", the story about the nuclear
| power device in the mountains in nepal, this post.
|
| Anyone know any good resources?
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(page generated 2021-04-09 23:02 UTC)