[HN Gopher] Facebook axes 16,000 groups for trading fake reviews...
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Facebook axes 16,000 groups for trading fake reviews after UK
intervenes
Author : pseudolus
Score : 73 points
Date : 2021-04-09 10:37 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| skd-fs wrote:
| Not surprising at all at this point. At Fakespot we've noticed a
| huge surge in fake reviews that originate from Facebook groups
| where sellers and professional reviewers meet.
|
| The way it works is that a seller provides some kind of incentive
| (gift card, paypal money, etc) to write a 5 star or even 1 star
| review (for competitors). Facebook has hosted these groups and
| they have exploded in numbers in the last year.
| liquidpele wrote:
| They also put "you're a lucky customer" offer cards offering
| Amazon gift cards with the items. We emailed a hotmail account
| to get a $15 Amazon card for filling out a review. Then they
| offered an extra $10 to make it 5 star.
| colejohnson66 wrote:
| Couldn't one make the review, take the money, then delete the
| review after redeeming the card?
| jayrot wrote:
| I'd imagine you could but enough people just don't bother
| that it still ends up worth it.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| And/or, the set of people who'd have qualms about leaving
| a fake review, but were perfectly willing to cheat a
| stranger out of $15, is empty. Not to mention, it would
| kill an opportunity for repeat business.
| ipsum2 wrote:
| dang or other mod, can you correct the title? Reuters modified
| the article:
|
| > (Corrects headline, paragraph 1 to say Facebook "removes", not
| "suspends", 16,000 "groups", not "accounts")
|
| > (Reuters) - Social media company Facebook Inc removed 16,000
| groups for selling or buying fake reviews of products and
| services on its platforms, after the Britain's competition
| watchdog intervened for the second time, the regulator said.
| dang wrote:
| Yup. Fixed now. Thanks!
| patorjk wrote:
| I had a friend who was doing this. The way it worked is there was
| a secret FB group where items would be posted, and if you were up
| for reviewing the item you'd message the group coordinator who
| would send you money to buy it. You'd then buy and review the
| item. Initially you would only be reviewing small items ($5-$10),
| but as you gained more trust you could get more expensive items
| (not sure what the limit was). Some items even came with an
| additional $20 for doing a review. I cautioned them that what
| they were doing was a good way to get their Amazon account
| suspected (I didn't even think about their FB account) and they
| eventually did stop. Most of what they accumulated was crap, but
| there were a hand full of nice items - though thinking about it
| now, the only thing they got that I thought was cool was a
| decorative snail statue.
| NullPrefix wrote:
| >I cautioned them [...] and they eventually did stop
|
| They did stop letting you know about it
| reaperducer wrote:
| Chances are this person knows his friend and how that friend
| acts a lot better than some rando on the internet does.
| slig wrote:
| Surely a person that posts fake reviews online in exchange
| of money and/or goods wouldn't lie.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| You still need incentive to lie, why would you lie to a
| friend about this? It's not like they're going to report
| you
| floatingatoll wrote:
| Shame and revenue are powerful motivators.
| thatguy0900 wrote:
| I very much doubt shame was involved. At least I don't
| think I know anyone who would feel shame over doing this
| floatingatoll wrote:
| I have prior experience with a friend deciding to get
| into shady Internet ripoff stuff. They definitely were
| ashamed to discuss it with me and ended up trying to lie
| about it so they wouldn't lose me as a friend. I don't
| contradict that some would be unashamed, but I encourage
| giving more credence to the human capacity for cognitive
| dissonance.
| inetknght wrote:
| If your friend complains about something you talk about
| then you stop talking about it.
|
| If your friend complains about something they saw you do
| then you stop doing that in front of your friend.
|
| If you're getting money to do something why would you
| stop just because a friend complains?
|
| This is ultimately an ethical question. Not everyone has
| the same ethics.
| broberts01 wrote:
| I disagree. Some people lie just for the fun of it.
| dkersten wrote:
| And some people tell the truth. Just because some people
| do it, doesn't necessarily mean that its likely in this
| case.
| loceng wrote:
| It's why public/published reviews/testimonials for
| general public consumption are bunk. Lower quality,
| crappier or knockoff product, will have higher profit
| margin to afford marketing/advertising and other tactics
| like fake reviews.
|
| Word of mouth reviews from your trusted tribe leaders,
| go-to people you come to learn to trust (vs. random
| internet stranger), slows down processes but inherently
| has quality-trust built into the process.
|
| I am a fan of a lot of what Tesla and Elon has done, not
| a fan of others parts of the whole, however what I think
| I value the most so far is that Tesla doesn't advertise:
| the attention they've gained has arguably been deserved
| and not bought.
|
| This is a very powerful and important mechanism that
| society hasn't understood yet, and needs a Facebook->The
| Social Dilemma moment to bring to light of the cascading
| consequences of the Ad industrial complex - of people
| being able to cheaply buy attention they haven't earned
| nor deserve (for products and services). En mass this
| industrial complex is funnelling money into feeding this
| low quality, bad actor tactic system - and away from
| honest, high-quality, deserving individuals,
| organizations/companies, and systems.
|
| With the correct policy we can quickly knock out likely 4
| or even 5 birds with a single stone; more likely it's 10
| policies fix/shift 3x the systems that need fixing from
| their foundation. UBI, a share/dividend from just some of
| the productivity of the society paid back to the largest
| cog in the wheel of capitalism, will be one such policy -
| that then applied with say 9 other policies and/or
| systemic changes - will then each compound with the
| others giving a 100x improvement.
| rush86999 wrote:
| shameless plug - started a subreddit r/shouldibuythisproduct to
| ask other members with history if a product is worth buying.
| Sometimes just knowing a brand is trustworthy or not is enough to
| make a good buying decision along with product specs.
| https://www.reddit.com/r/shouldibuythisproduct/
| imglorp wrote:
| What's going to keep all these shills out when they find out
| about it?
| rush86999 wrote:
| good question: here's a response I made on the reddit
|
| People might think that this might be another system that
| might get gamed. If someone tries hard enough, they can play
| the long game, and game the system. The point is user karma
| and user history should be enough to make it harder to game
| the system. Once there is enough traffic, there will strong
| moderation and minimum posting/commenting requirements
|
| Also another response to bribing the influencers of the
| system: Bribe could work but as long as the product is not
| crap, I think there is no perfect model. The influencers will
| still have to worry about keeping a reputation and if they
| put their name on a crappy product they will lose their
| reputation. People will start pointing this out. Karma might
| make them stand out and face more criticism for being in the
| limelight. You also make a good point. Maybe it should be
| shouldibuythisbrand?
| quantumwannabe wrote:
| Headline changed to: "Facebook axes 16,000 groups for trading
| fake reviews after UK intervenes".
|
| Sounds like they just banned the groups, not the accounts in them
| like the original title said.
| illwrks wrote:
| This will move to other placeslike Discord
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| What are the EU/UK rules like for people who get banned but have
| purchased hardware that only works if you have an FB account
| (like an Oculus headset)? I think in the US you're SOL if you get
| banned outside of the return and chargeback windows
| Kbelicius wrote:
| Don't know about EU but Oculus is not selling in Germany
| because it requires an FB account.
| ipaddr wrote:
| I guess one would need to resell the Oculus or use it as a
| movie prop.
|
| If I got an Oculus I would immediately stop using facebook for
| fear of a random account problem preventing my expensive
| hardware from working.
| yonaguska wrote:
| Will they go after all the coyotes advertising human smuggling
| service?
| Black101 wrote:
| I don't think that this is something that Facebook is
| against... so you would need to get a lot of people talking
| against it for them to do something about it.
| Ceezy wrote:
| Are you talking about actual human trafficking? Do you have a
| link?
| yonaguska wrote:
| What is "actual" human trafficking? Do you not consider
| minors being coerced to make the journey alone not human
| trafficking?
|
| https://www.justice.gov/humantrafficking/what-is-human-
| traff...
|
| https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/human-
| smugglers...
| envy2 wrote:
| No, he's talking about the politically-charged issue of
| people discussing services to help voluntary migrants get
| into another country.
|
| But, at least in the case of Facebook, advertising/offering
| those services isn't allowed[1], but discussing them is; this
| is a bit of a fine line, but one that is likely trying to
| strike a balance between letting people share safety and
| route information while not allowing potentially exploitative
| traffickers to solicit victims.
|
| [1] https://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/human_exploit
| ati...
| yonaguska wrote:
| > people discussing services to help voluntary migrants get
| into another country.
|
| That's a disgusting way to frame the plight of minors that
| have no consent in the journey they are coerced into
| taking.
|
| And, no, I'm not talking about people offering advice and
| posting safe routes. I'm talking about coyotes for cartels
| promising safe escort for thousands of dollars. Which is a
| lie. They will let these people die if necessary. Then
| they'll hold them hostage if they do make it, by
| threatening to kill their families back home if payment is
| not received.
|
| https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/human-
| smugglers...
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > Then they'll hold them hostage if they do make it, by
| threatening to kill their families back home if payment
| is not received.
|
| I'm struggling to see what you think is odd about trying
| to collect payment for services _already rendered_?
| yonaguska wrote:
| I'm struggling to see how you don't think this scenario
| is exploitative.
|
| Services rendered may or may not include you being
| dropped off in the desert with no food, water, and left
| for dead, being stashed dangerous transport situations,
| being subject to rape, or forced sex work, being forced
| into working as a mule or other criminal activity.
|
| Children in the holding facilities have been observed
| engaging in sex acts with each other, indicative of being
| abused on the journey there. Children are showing up with
| damaged vocal chords. Women are routinely raped by their
| smugglers.
|
| I'm amazed that every response I'm getting is questioning
| how what is going on at the border is not human
| trafficking.
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/03/us/border-rapes-
| migrant-w...
|
| We are talking about Facebook providing a platform for
| advertising for these transactions. Do you remember
| FESTA/SOSTA, craigslist, and backpage and all the uproar
| over that? But Facebook gets a pass.
| [deleted]
| Ceezy wrote:
| Just wondering, is anyone happy with FB ad/recommendation tools?
| Cause a friend in the ad business was telling that FB ad never
| perform and she stoped.
| nolok wrote:
| I currently buy about 50k worth of ads every month, aiming for
| qualified leads (my end goal is converted sale, no recurring).
|
| FB is one of the worst ad network I've had the displeasure to
| use.
|
| First in terms of analytics and reporting. Adwords plays the
| "AWS billing card", they're transparent without being so, and
| the overabondance of unrelated metrics makes it sometime
| difficult to figure out where you are wasting cash. Still, it
| appears to be working hand in hand with me, they would like me
| to overpay what I need, but they also want it to make me money
| so I come back for more. They're my own personnal crack dealer.
| Facebook on the other hand really feel like a casino
| experience. It's basically telling you "it's working ! you
| should be pleased with the result !" and in general doesn't
| feel like a pleasant relationship to me. Doesn't surprise me in
| the least that they were caught many times faking numbers
| because that's the general vibe it gives off.
|
| Second in terms of results. Talking to other people in the
| field it appears to perform decently for retargeting, or to
| grab a mass volume traffic/eyeballs. And they make lots of
| billions so clearly there is value to get there. But for high
| value qualified leads, FB is basically the same as Adwords
| "display network", which is already known as the crappy
| terrible part of adwords you should probably not use. Doesn't
| really surprise me, on Google/Amazon/Bing you're appearing in
| front of someone who typed "amazon I need a water pump" or
| "google I need a pdf editor", you're answering the user's
| question. Whereas on FB just like display network you just
| appear on content or for users that are vaguely related, you're
| bothering the user more than anything.
|
| Like everything Ads it depends on your product and your market
| and how much time you can spend on it, but for me it's a
| massive dud.
|
| Again, everything written here is my own experience and
| preference, I might be using it wrong, YMMV, lots of people
| make lots of money of it and all that.
| Viliam1234 wrote:
| > Doesn't surprise me in the least that they were caught many
| times faking numbers because that's the general vibe it gives
| off.
|
| Long ago I made a Facebook page for something trivial I no
| longer care about. Facebook regularly reminds me that I
| should buy some ads to make the page more visible. Facebook
| also regularly tells me that someone was viewing my page...
| and by coincidence, it always happens when I am online. That
| is, I only open Facebook once per day, at different time on
| different days, and after five minutes of using it I get a
| message "someone just viewed your page".
|
| From my perspective, this is quite stupid. If you ask for
| money and all I have is your word that you actually did
| something for me... it is bad strategy to introduce yourself
| as a liar. But I assume they did some A/B testing and most
| customers are gullible.
|
| Another reason I would never buy Facebook ads is that it
| keeps showing me the same two ads every day, for years. So I
| would assume they would do exactly the same with my ads...
| like, I would pay for "10000 impressions" and all I would get
| is 10 unlucky people who get shown the ad 1000 times each.
| Ceezy wrote:
| Well, I'm a very small unlaunched start up ;). So I have very
| few $ to find people interested by my product.
| nolok wrote:
| You're probably well aware but most of those places will
| try to give you free credit to "start off", keeping the
| crack dealer reference going. It's never enough to really
| figure things out but it's still a good deal to take.
|
| Know your product ! Figure out if you want traffic or
| subscription (are you willing to take a signup loss for
| long term gain ?) or leads and how qualified.
|
| When you use adwords, they keep offering you to talk to a
| google representative every couple of month, to review your
| account and make suggestions. I found those a massive waste
| of my time when I had a campaign going well, but when I had
| trouble launching something new they were often a very
| decent (and free !) help. Make sure to use that and ask any
| questions you may have then.
|
| Like I said they want to extract as much $ from you as they
| can, but they clearly know they need you to make money from
| it too. It's a love / hate relationship, but it works for
| me.
|
| Best of luck on your venture
| Ceezy wrote:
| thx
| strulovich wrote:
| I have a friend who works on ads for video games mostly. Their
| company uses Google and Facebook for the majority of those
| spend, which one has better value for money tends to change
| every time I ask them. They definitely made FB ads work well
| for them for many years.
|
| In addition, I've noticed people here commonly tell stories
| about how X's ads never work work. I find it ridiculous. All of
| those digital ads definitely work for many companies, even if
| they don't work at all for others. Ads is a competitive market.
| If your ads don't work, it doesn't say much about the platform,
| and may say more about your ads/product.
|
| (Disclaimer: FB employee, but I don't deal with ads)
| knuthsat wrote:
| The only way ads can work today is that the ad system takes
| the metric from the user.
|
| If someone is tweaking the keywords and other things on their
| own the ads will very quickly stop working.
| pwned1 wrote:
| We spend about $100k a month on Google and Bing ads and we
| tried FB about a year and a half ago. It was a complete
| failure. FB's system was telling us that we had more
| conversions than we had business. We stopped FB ads cold and
| nothing changed in terms of revenue. I'm sure it works for some
| categories of ads, but for us it was a complete fraud and waste
| of money.
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