[HN Gopher] The Web MiniDisc App (2020)
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The Web MiniDisc App (2020)
Author : mocko
Score : 136 points
Date : 2021-04-09 09:46 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (stefano.brilli.me)
(TXT) w3m dump (stefano.brilli.me)
| peanut_worm wrote:
| Wow that's amazing I didn't think the USB api in the browser was
| able to do things like that
| olduh wrote:
| does thiswork with windows ? i have tried but sadly did not
| succeed with chrome.
| maxwellito wrote:
| Best use of WebUSB so far! It's so good that even /r/minidisc no
| longer bother using old software to enjoy this format, they keep
| recommending this. This is an excellent work
| tambourine_man wrote:
| I feel like we need to separate the JavaScript based open
| platform from the actual web.
|
| I love the idea of accessing USB devices from JavaScript but I
| don't want my browser anywhere near them.
|
| Both are great ideas and share technologies, but can (and
| should) be separate products.
| Jonnax wrote:
| They don't need to be separate. It's just that Apple and
| Mozilla are not the majority steerers of the development of
| the Web.
|
| Chrome have stated that they won't do anything to prevent
| fingerprinting for example.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| I know a lot of people dislike webusb and webbt but honestly
| the potential for sustainable devices is huge.
|
| No more devices turning into landfill fodder once their iOS and
| Android apps stop being updated.
| Erwin wrote:
| Back when I used Netscape on DEC ULtrix, connected from a
| Windows X client some 20+ years ago, I sure would not have
| believed that one day device drivers would be written in
| scripting language and run in my browser.
| bayindirh wrote:
| > I know a lot of people dislike webusb and webbt...
|
| The problem with these technologies are not their utility,
| but their potential for being abused.
|
| Who on this blue dot ever uses battery percentage meter as
| another input for browser fingerprinting. That's insane.
| moron4hire wrote:
| _I_ use the battery API for it 's intended purpose. I make
| apps that run in fullscreen, immersive modes, targeting
| battery operated devices, with built-in teleconferencing.
| Users need to know if their battery is about to run out so
| they don't just lose their meeting session with no warning.
|
| I've gotten really tired of this browser fingerprinting
| FUD. Removing features like WebUSB, WebBluetooth, etc, is
| not going to make users less fingerprintable. You're 100%
| fingerprintable from just your browsing activity.
| Preventing fingerprinting is not just "hard", it's
| impossible.
|
| But we still get people complaining about it enough that
| browser vendors implement these security theater
| mitigations like when Google unilaterally decided WebAudio
| needed to be hobbled. Are users any less fingerprintable
| because WebAudio now requires a user activation to run, and
| timing information needed to have artificial noise added?
| No, users are still 100% fingerprintable. But now we have
| to jump through hoops to get it to work, the API as a whole
| is unusable for timing-critical applications, and old demos
| and apps are broken.
|
| I'd be fine with a permissions prompt. We have the web app
| manifest format. Let's use it. It's not like the app stores
| are doing anywhere near a good job at preventing abuse,
| anyway. But no, is so often not even an option.
|
| _That_ is what is insane.
| swiley wrote:
| I'd definitely prefer a web app to a mobile app.
|
| I just wish there was a way to automatically turn all
| this off when I'm just reading an article or filling a
| form, browsers should have a special app mode.
| moron4hire wrote:
| It's the inconsistency of the whole thing. Location API
| still exists, but you have to grant permission. But
| Battery API. WHOA NOW! That might be used to _identify_
| someone! Never mind all the tracking pixels and Google
| Analytics scripts on the page. Never mind IP Address plus
| Time of Day gets you greater than 50% of the way to
| identifying the user. This little battery discharge rate,
| that 's the villain. Better remove it completely.
|
| HTTP Referer header is so unreliable and so frequently
| used to spam server logs that it would break nothing to
| remove it completely, yet it's still there and we've got
| people complaining about the
| `navigator.hardwareConcurrency` value "leaking
| information".
|
| Why does WebAudio need a user activation, but WebGL can
| run straight away, maybe even in a Worker where you'll
| never even see it?
|
| The userAgent string alone tells you tons of information
| about a user, especially when you consider how frequently
| browsers bump version numbers versus how much user
| upgrade patterns can lag behind. But Ambient Light
| Events, man, they might be used to capture the user's
| face, one pixel at a time, over the course of a year, so
| that's clearly evil, too!
|
| Because it's not really about security. It's all about
| pushing developers off of the Web and into app stores.
| Mozilla goes along because they're locked in an abusive
| relationship with their misinformed users, the 5% of the
| world that is so-called "privacy conscious" people who
| comprise their only user base.
|
| If you create an app that makes good use of advanced
| features, then it has a higher likelihood of being
| something people are willing to pay for. So what does an
| app developer do, if they need this functionality? They
| make a native app instead. The user is still giving up
| the information (not to mention their email address at
| the point of purchase), but the app now has to give up
| 30% of revenue and be at the whims of a group of
| unelected technocrats' ever-changing, unspecified
| censorship criteria.
| serf wrote:
| >I've gotten really tired of this browser fingerprinting
| FUD. Removing features like WebUSB, WebBluetooth, etc, is
| not going to make users less fingerprintable.
|
| Yes, it will.
|
| I don't know of anyone who would seriously argue that
| less variation between client data doesn't also offer
| less uniquely identifiable variation between users.
|
| Less remotely-viewable variables, less rolls of chance to
| be unique.
|
| >Are users any less fingerprintable because WebAudio now
| requires a user activation to run, and timing information
| needed to have artificial noise added? No, users are
| still 100% fingerprintable.
|
| _Less_ fingerprint-able doesn 't mean _completely un-
| fingerprintable_.
|
| These very edge cases and seemingly unnecessary
| inclusions into the spec are the very things that allow
| you to keep the technology in place while reducing
| possible privacy concerns.
|
| These changes and inclusions are designed as a compromise
| between the two goals of technological innovation and
| privacy infringement.
| moron4hire wrote:
| What does it matter if there are 1000 variables or 999
| variables if it only takes 5 variables to identify
| people? What point is there to anti-fingerprinting
| practices if the only way to achieve less than 100%
| fingerprintability is to stop using the internet
| entirely?
|
| And why, in this sisiphian effort, is the answer to
| hobble Web APIs, rather than request permissions, as
| native mobile apps do? Why should there be a functional
| difference between native mobile apps and web apps? The
| app stores don't vet submissions, so malicious apps are
| apparently quite trivial to get into the stores. Users
| don't really think twice about installing apps. Why do
| web apps need to be uniquely hobbled in comparison?
| bayindirh wrote:
| > I'm so sick of this browser fingerprinting FUD.
|
| I'm sick of fingerprinting itself actually. Coming the
| office and seeing the ads of stuff my family browsed at
| home is really getting old now.
|
| > Removing features like WebUSB, WebBluetooth, etc, is
| not going to make users less fingerprintable.
|
| No, but I think it'll reduce attack surface considerably
| for boty wired and wireless devices. Just being able to
| abuse webbt to listen my wireless keyboard or abuse my
| information stored on an external drive via webusb or
| just being able to poke around via an untrusted medium by
| design _is perfectly safe_ as blindly poking a positive
| coefficient nuclear reactor (we know how well it went in
| Chernobyl).
|
| > Are users any less fingerprintable because WebAudio now
| requires a user activation to run? No, users are still
| 100% fingerprintable.
|
| Again, microphone access?
|
| I think there's a lot of insanity going on the web right
| now. Exclusion of extremely cool technologies because of
| a real and big potential for abuse is probably the
| leading one.
|
| Edit: I also use technologies for their intended
| purposes, but not everyone is doing that, AFAWCS
| moron4hire wrote:
| Why is "the potential for abuse" always brought up when
| it's Web apps that people are talking about, but almost
| anything else in the world, "potential for abuse" is
| considered a fallacious argument employed disingenously
| by people with hidden agendas?
|
| Crypto-*: it might be used by criminals!
|
| Anonymous content sharing: it might be used be
| poedophiles!
|
| Free speech: it might be used by yucky people!
|
| UBI: it might be used as an excuse to not work!
|
| Consumer-grade GPUs: they might be used by cryptominers
| trying to burn the world!
|
| Paternalism and prior-restraint are anti-democratic.
| Other people using a tool for bad purposes should have no
| bearing on my usage.
| bayindirh wrote:
| I understand you, but web technologies are different,
| because, web technologies are literally _the other way
| around_. In the examples I 've given, most of the daily,
| normal users are in the receiving end of the abuse.
|
| Let's dig deeper, with your examples:
|
| Crypto: If you're a normal user, you can be private. If
| you're criminal, you'll get to cover some of your tracks.
| The other effects are secondary and indirect.
|
| Anonymous content sharing: If you're a normal user, you
| can share stuff. I personally share stuff this way in HN.
| It keeps my cloud accounts tidy. It can be used for other
| nefarious purposes, but it's effects are again secondary.
|
| Free Speech: It _shall_ also be used by yucky people, so
| we can improve our civilization, systems and ourselves
| further. It causes a lot of pain I know, but alas, humans
| probably need it sometimes to evolve. We 're lazy
| otherwise.
|
| UBI: I think it's a neat idea. I can't think any bad
| examples, sorry.
|
| Consumer Grade GPUs: I don't think using a country's
| worth of energy to speculate on something's value is
| hardly efficient, so I'll pass. However, again its
| effects are secondary.
|
| In all your examples, the receiving party is narrow. The
| receiving party's number grows because of secondary
| effect. However, web technologies bring everything to
| your home, including exploits and abuse.
|
| It's a big can of worms for 1-click and 0-click exploits.
| "Oh, the web browser was not on the foreground, how my
| data is exfiltrated?" yeah, webusb/webbt/webaudio.
|
| Crypto cannot directly harm you, neither GPUs. But I can
| get into your home and violate your with every privacy
| right with a couple of little, neat technologies.
|
| Maybe you're right. We shall let these technologies loose
| and allow everyone to snoop into everyone's devices.
| That'd be equal and democratic. Maybe exploited people
| will like it and allow more of it. Like the most recent
| Facebook breach...
|
| While we're at it, I really like the glow of Cherenkov
| Radiation. I'd like to build a small, fish-tank sized
| reactor with lead-glass sides. I won't use the material
| for any other reasons. If only they let me...
| monocasa wrote:
| Because the web is an fundamentally untrusted medium that
| runs this code just for the 21st century equivalent of
| opening a book.
| dividedbyzero wrote:
| I believe fingerprinting is like insider trading in that
| you won't be able to make the stock exchange invulnerable
| to insider trading with fixes to the software that runs
| the stock exchange, and you won't be able to find a
| purely technical fix to make fingerprinting go away. This
| sort of thing is best left to regulation, that's what we
| have a legislative and an executive and laws and courts
| and all that for, after all.
| dave84 wrote:
| I used one of the NetMD Minidisc players throughout college. The
| discs could be formatted for data and could store 1GB, they would
| show up on a PC as a USB drive. It beat the hell out of the zip
| drives everyone else was using.
|
| I'm tempted to use this and see if it still works.
| throwanem wrote:
| Fwiw, a 1GB MD would be Hi-MD, a different media in the same
| form factor. I don't actually know if the Hi-MD players support
| NetMD transfer or use their own protocol, but I guess I can
| think of a way you could find out!
| dave84 wrote:
| Yup, mine was NetMD. Didn't realise that worked with the
| older discs too, never had a regular minidisc.
| icu wrote:
| I'm really nostalgic about the MiniDisc format. You've inspired
| me to check my loft to see if mine still works. Thing is, besides
| retro coolness, I can't think of any particular use cases that my
| mobile isn't better suited for.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Sound quality, optical in, auto audio tagging when paired with
| a supporting CD Walkman and using a CD which contains CD-text.
|
| Also, it's good for a relatively high quality recording device
| when paired with the output stage of a make-shift studio mixer.
|
| Anyone who wants to read about the sound quality, a relevant
| discussion is here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26440967
|
| The form link is still open. I'd do what I've said there if a
| couple of people applies.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| Are you saying MD provides higher sound quality than lossless
| digital? I find that hard to believe!
| [deleted]
| bayindirh wrote:
| No, of course not. :D
|
| I only say that ATRAC3, while being lossy and old, can
| provide very enjoyable sound. I argue that sound is
| transparent in SP mode and very high quality in LP2.
|
| I further argue that when combined with Sony's DSP and
| electronics magic, its sound still holds very well and
| provides a very rich, detailed and enjoyable listening
| experience, and can rival today's mid-high end portable
| devices very, very well.
|
| I tell this as a former orchestra player, btw.
| lyptt wrote:
| I used to have a minidisc player in the early 2000s. Loved that
| thing. It got replaced for an iPod mini though, which was way
| more convenient.
| wazoox wrote:
| This is really awesome!
| l00sed wrote:
| What an awesome, fun idea. Great work, thanks for sharing!
| cbm-vic-20 wrote:
| This is really neat! I like that the same web app can be used
| from a desktop and the phone, and the functionality is the same,
| since they use the same browser API for accessing the device.
|
| Too bad my MiniDisc players are pre-NetMD devices.
| borepop wrote:
| I'm not a coder, so perhaps I'm missing the appeal of this
| project. My main takeaway is that I can't understand why somebody
| would go through the hard work of re-creating this but not bother
| writing a single line explaining to casual readers _what the
| advantage might be of using the app_ compared to other more
| obvious solutions for playing music files.
| brailsafe wrote:
| The point is really just how pointless and esoteric it is, not
| to offer a better way of playing music. This isn't for casual
| readers, this is for nerds who do stuff that nobody else cares
| about, for the fun and challenge.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| The idea is to re-enable functionality that was lost on old
| devices that were locked to shitty DRM schemes.
| retox wrote:
| I think it's a real shame that there is no way (as far as I know)
| to use re-writable MiniDiscs in the same way that CR-RWs, for
| storing generic files. There only seems to be projects like this
| for storing/transferring music.
|
| Can anyone in the know give a quick explanation why that is the
| case? I appreciate it's a moot point now with the extreme price
| of MD-RWs, but every now and then I'm reminded of them and get
| upset. It's probably out of the question now that there's an MD
| resurgence like cassettes are enjoying.
| dehrmann wrote:
| I had a mz-n707. It had functionality to record, but as far as
| I could tell, there was no way to read the audio data back over
| the USB interface.
| bombcar wrote:
| I suppose if you really wanted to you could encode the data
| and read it back via the aux in on the sound card, quite like
| the old cassette tape computers.
| chefandy wrote:
| Not sure why someone hasn't done it recently, but I'm not
| surprised they didn't do it back then. At the time of MD's
| popularity, it probably wouldn't have made much sense to
| compete with zip and jaz drives unless you could make them much
| cheaper, and I doubt they could have with MD. Portable audio
| that wasn't as finicky as CD but was higher quality than a
| cassette was the real killer functionality.
| turtlebits wrote:
| MD Data exists, it was slow and expensive.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_Data
| rvense wrote:
| The USB functionality came fairly late in the MD's life, I
| think. For the vast majority of MD devices, you could only get
| data in or out via audio connectors, which, even if digital, is
| incredibly slow and unwieldy - there's no transport control
| from the computer! It'd work like the tape drive on a C64.
| brailsafe wrote:
| > I started by porting the code from linux-minidisc to a new JS
| library that I've now published on npm, called netmd-js
|
| This is a couple of days of work!? I should just quit trying.
| Dude is a machine.
| grishka wrote:
| I once made an unofficial Clubhouse app for Android in 1.5
| days... lol
|
| But then my fingers hurt from typing so much code in such a
| short timespan. And then all that media attention, it was
| exhausting.
| sneak wrote:
| The catchphrase around it became a meme and fell out of
| popularity, but despite all of that, there remains a huge
| disparity (definitely more than an order of magnitude) in the
| productivity and output between the most efficient hackers and
| the least.
|
| I wouldn't take this as a reason to quit trying: take it as an
| inspiration to which to aspire.
| kleer001 wrote:
| > I should just quit trying. Dude is a machine.
|
| Maybe, but certainly dude doesn't have the same direction as
| you. Don't compare yourself to others. Well, unless you're
| trying to do exactly the same thing.
| novok wrote:
| To be fair, it was probably more like transcribing writing from
| one dialect to another dialect in the same language, where you
| are literate in both dialects, vs. creating something
| completely from scratch. It's a lot faster when you don't
| really have to think about the creation of content.
|
| Still impressive either way!
| mistyvales wrote:
| Loved MD's.. used to have a few decks, and at least 3 portables.
| Wish they made a Hi-MD car deck.
| snurfer wrote:
| I had no idea NetMD and Hi-MD were things. Sony certainly shows
| determination when it comes to continuing development of their
| technology (even when it's clear they'll only ever be a niche
| player).
| Jonnax wrote:
| Sometimes people think you need to be the best to succeed.
|
| Sony likely made millions off MiniDisc even if it didn't win in
| the end.
| snurfer wrote:
| MD certainly isn't the first niche media format to surprise
| onlookers with its staying power. Laserdisc lived for many
| years past the advent of DVD, too.
| 1-6 wrote:
| It's important to not drop good ideas. Things have a way of
| circling back to needing it in the future.
| debrice wrote:
| Brilliant!
| amanzi wrote:
| This is cool.
|
| As a side note - I recently found my old MiniDisc player in an
| old shoebox. Popped in a new AA battery, and it still worked
| perfectly! Some funny notes... I can't believe it lasts for ages
| on a single AA battery. And, I had forgotten how noisy they are,
| with constant whirring and spinning noises coming from the player
| as it seeks tracks.
| johnchristopher wrote:
| Well it does seek tracks since it's basically a high density
| floppy.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Actually it's HAMR disc. :D
| johnchristopher wrote:
| I totally messed things up, minidiscs were optical discs
| and `MiniDiscs use rewritable magneto-optical storage to
| store the data. Unlike the DCC or the analog Compact
| Cassette, the disc is a random-access medium, making seek
| time very fast.`
|
| Sorry.
| bayindirh wrote:
| We all mix things up sometimes. My comment's supposed to
| be soft hearted and humorous, not a stern one.
|
| We're humans, here's HN. We're just chatting, and
| misremembering things is alright.
|
| Have a nice and safe weekend. :)
| grishka wrote:
| There is something soothing about these noises. They reassure
| you that the device is doing something. I've never seen a
| MiniDisc player in person, but I remember PSP with an optical
| drive that made similar noise while your game loaded.
| bombcar wrote:
| Hard drive seeks used to be the way I'd tell if the Windows
| 98 SE machines were doing something or just hung - if you
| didn't hear the hard drive seeking it was probably time to
| reboot.
| 1-6 wrote:
| The Windows Task Manager does that for me. I like staring at
| graphs to reassure me the computer has not stopped.
| acomjean wrote:
| I tried mine out a year ago and they all worked (the ones I had
| recorded). I think the MO technology they used was pretty
| robust (compared to recordable cds and dvds)
| [deleted]
| teekert wrote:
| Ah, the mini-disc, loved it, and it developed quite nicely. My
| first one was a Sony [0]. It had 3 hours (they said 4 but meh) on
| one special li-ion battery (and 6 when I hooked up an external 2
| AA compartment, they said 10 but no). When my wife got one,
| shortly before they got out of fashion hers could run for 40
| hours on a single AA battery and fit 4x the amount of music on a
| disc.
|
| [0] https://www.minidisc.org/part_Sony_MZ-R55.html
| throwanem wrote:
| Those were NiMH batteries - I have the same model, got it back
| in high school with summer job money. Don't leave the
| "gumstick" battery in the unit; it will leak and swell, and
| taking the unit apart far enough to clean the contacts is an
| exceedingly fiddly job despite the excellent service manuals
| Sony used to put out. The things are the electromechanical
| equivalent of a Swiss watch.
| olduh wrote:
| great piece of work ! I try it with my sony mz n707 and a galaxy
| tab. works great. but I did not get it to work with win10 (chrome
| browser). Is windows supported ?
| washadjeffmad wrote:
| I was gifted a Sony MZ-1 in the early 90s that I used until its
| death in 2020. It survived longer than the MagicLink and the
| little book reader they also sent. I often felt like the Sony of
| that era made up formats just so they could design cool gadgets
| that made use of them.
|
| I remember using TOSLINK to write tones to a MiniDisc to use on
| the old Jupiter or Saturn Bells with the unmuted receivers back
| before MP3 and other digital audio players existed. I want to say
| we moved to a Creative Nomad, but it didn't have the same
| cyberpunk feel as discreetly swapping discs into a MD player.
|
| Does anyone know if the masters used were unique MDs or the same
| as for CDs of the era? I've been wanting to create a FLAC library
| of MD rips, or at least recreate the playlists to burn onto some
| blanks if they're the same.
| bayindirh wrote:
| You can create awesome sounding MDs from any CD or FLAC. The
| sound modelling of ATRAC3 and MP3 is very different, so they
| don't translate well to each other.
| acomjean wrote:
| I only had one pre recorded MD (oasis). I would imagine that
| the masters weren't unique to MDs. Pre recorded ones weren't
| that common (at least in the US)
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(page generated 2021-04-09 23:02 UTC)