[HN Gopher] Ask HN: Have you ever been demoted months after bein...
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Ask HN: Have you ever been demoted months after being hired?
Have you ever been in a situation when you joined a company as a
software engineer at a certain level (written clearly in your job
offer) but then after a few months in found out that your level was
actually one ladder step lower (salary was as agreed)? What was
your reaction, how did you handle it and what was the management
response? This is what happened to me at the current company a
couple of years ago. I didn't raise it with the management at the
time and assumed that I just needed to get a bit better for it.
I've been working towards the promotion to my job offer level for
the past year, but so far it's always been "come back next cycle".
My reviews have always been good, but it seemed like I needed to
get just a bit better or for just a tad longer. I've been mentoring
people of my level, working on various internal company side
projects on my own time for most of these years to build reputation
and prove myself, but it doesn't seem to pay off as much and I feel
that I'm starting to lose motivation. Is there anything you would
suggest to stay positive? Do you know anyone else who went through
a similar experience and came off on top?
Author : ambalaika
Score : 16 points
Date : 2021-04-08 18:54 UTC (4 hours ago)
| [deleted]
| froggertoaster wrote:
| To move up, you often have to move out.
|
| I'd cut my losses and move onto a different company, especially
| after your comment:
|
| > although I could probably get 50% more without much effort at
| other places.
|
| Unless you're perfectly happy with your job and your pay (it
| doesn't sound like you are) I'd start looking. If you can find
| more intellectually stimulating work elsewhere at better pay,
| that seems like a win-win.
| tyingq wrote:
| My guess is that your salary fit into the band of the lower
| title. And somebody thought they were doing you a favor by
| creating room for promotion. Very odd that nobody would have said
| anything, though. You mention salary is as promised. Are there
| any other differences, like number of options,bonus calculations,
| etc?
| ambalaika wrote:
| Nope, everything monetary was just as agreed. It's an
| interesting take and I haven't though about it this way. I have
| always seen it as a sign of mistrust from the company, which
| had its consequences on morale etc.
| tyingq wrote:
| The "extra cycle for a raise" is an upside. You can get
| promoted into something you're already qualified for. Though
| I get that there's downsides. Some loss of positional
| authority, maybe issues getting a new job at a place that
| uses similar names for levels, etc.
| jghn wrote:
| I suspect it's something along these lines, that the OPs salary
| and title somehow aren't lining up. Either what you describe or
| the opposite where their salary was higher than their level
| specified and the offer letter was fudged.
|
| The former is probably a good situation to be in. The latter is
| less good as even if one gets the promotion to that next level,
| if you're salary is already in that band you won't see a
| corresponding pay increase.
| jokethrowaway wrote:
| I would have raised it and got it corrected.
|
| Titles are not worth much anyway; one more reason to insist on
| your title being what agreed. The title is something you can
| spend (on your CV, in your relationships with other colleagues).
|
| Also, look around and see if you can get a better role somewhere
| else. No reason not to switch seeing how they're treating you.
| eganist wrote:
| Honestly, if all the compensation details are exactly as agreed
| and the title doesn't visibly look like a demotion or otherwise
| undesirable on your CV, I'd consider it a win. More runway for
| promotion, merit increases, RSUs, etc.
|
| Also, this happens with alarming frequency across firms with
| nebulous managerial titles. Different firms use titles like VP,
| Manager, Director, Supervisor, Principal, etc. interchangeably or
| defined entirely differently from their industry counterparts.
| One company's VP may be another company's Senior Associate; one
| company's Supervisor may be another company's Director, etc., so
| ultimately it's really just the level of responsibility and how
| you're able to sell it to future firms or partners that matters
| most.
| ryandrake wrote:
| I'd say the opposite: you're closer to the ceiling for raises.
| If OP's compensation is mid-range for L+1, it is probably near
| the top of the range for his actual L. So future raises will
| not be great (since OP's comp has already maxxed out for his
| (incorrect) level. You want to be near the bottom of the comp
| band for whatever level you are at, so there is lots of room
| for future raises without having to get promoted.
|
| I would seek to correct this for the sake of future raises.
| eganist wrote:
| Sounds like:
|
| If you want to coast in your role without promotions but
| still want raises, object to the structure. Or quit.
|
| If you want promotion potential and the wider raise potential
| that comes with it, accept it.
|
| I don't know. Faced in a similar position, I'd be grateful
| for the opportunity to get better raises with promotions
| rather than raises within my current role.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| This happened to me at a Fortune 500 and as long as the pay is
| great just ignore the title as most other companies will
| realize your responsibilities are in line with a higher title.
| listenallyall wrote:
| Personally I disagree. There is far less friction within an
| organization to fill a VP job with someone who is currently
| (or once was) a VP, rather than "taking a chance" with a
| candidate who has never previously held that title. Further,
| I have very rarely seen interviewers actually take the time
| to learn what your responsibilities are, let alone determine
| that they are representative of a title other than the one
| you have.
| dyeje wrote:
| No, that's unacceptable. Would have raised the issue immediately.
| solresol wrote:
| Yes, this happened to me when I joined google. I think there was
| a mixup with someone hired at the same time with the same name.
| So I was told I was being hired at L5 but was in the system as
| L3. I raised it as a problem and tried to resolve it.
|
| Management response: I was asked to resign (in the most clear
| terms possible).
| nonplussed wrote:
| That's odd they would ask you to resign although 2 levels lower
| is weird.
|
| I had something similar happen to me last year. When receiving
| an offer, I was told I would be at L6 but found out after I was
| hired at L5 (both levels are considered Senior Engineer). The
| title is the same and the comp was as agreed, just that I
| thought the level would be higher.
|
| Lesson learned for next time. Always get something like that in
| writing.
| rabidonrails wrote:
| Just curious, did you find this job via a headhunter?
| ambalaika wrote:
| Nope, another platform =)
| DC1350 wrote:
| > working on various internal company side projects on my own
| time
|
| Maybe they love that you'll work for free if they keep dangling
| the carrot in front of you.
|
| If it's going to take you years to get what you're qualified for,
| then doesn't it make sense to find a new job at the appropriate
| level? It should only take a few months.
| happynacho wrote:
| In my country it's semi-illegal to demote someone. Sure they can
| put you in a lower skillset position but by law they cannot lower
| your existing pay. They would need to fire you (without
| reasonable cause it's a 3 month payout) and rehire you at that
| lower position/pay.
| ambalaika wrote:
| The pay is the same, so it's not the case here. It's just that
| the title is different.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| Truth is that if you are getting good performance reviews and not
| being promoted, you need to find another job at a higher level to
| get that promotion. Your current company is happy to keep you
| placated and working at your current level.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Yep, time to start interviewing. Tangentially, Always Be
| Interviewing.
| majkinetor wrote:
| Tangentially, that must be miserable life.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Possibly for introverts. I see a few 15-30 min Zoom calls a
| month as industry comp due diligence and ground truth.
| Don't know what's out there, if you're underpaid, and by
| how much if you're not looking. With everyone WFH, you can
| do it over lunch or whenever you can squeeze it in, no on
| site or PTO required.
|
| If it's not for you, and you're comfortable leaving money
| and opportunities on the table, you do you. Everyone has to
| do what's best for themselves.
| moneywoes wrote:
| What do you find works best for short bursts of interview
| prep, a quick leetcode before lunch?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I am in infosec (primarily, there's a lot of similar work
| I do that doesn't neatly bucket into that including
| finance). No leetcode required (except for security
| engineering roles, possibly). This obviously does not
| apply to SWEs, so plan accordingly. The interviews are
| the practice/prep for each subsequent interview. Think of
| it like Toastmasters [1] but for your career. Leetcode
| polishing does sound like it might work for SWEs, but I
| cannot speak to it, and don't want to provide bad advice
| (which can be worse than no advice).
|
| [1] https://www.toastmasters.org/
| godot wrote:
| A few 15-30 min Zoom calls a month seem like a ton of
| time investment. It's one thing if it truly is 15-30 min,
| but typically one would prepare a bit for interviews.
| Tech work, reading up on the company, etc. As you
| mentioned below you're in infosec so maybe it's less; for
| SWE there is the tech/code prep and then there's also
| purely the handling of the stress of answering tech
| interview questions. Not to mention many even want a
| take-home code exercise done which can take 2-3 hours.
| (You could argue that you wouldn't even interview at
| those companies casually unless you're really committed)
| Honestly, the amount of work to do for even one interview
| is so much that if I'm happy at my job, I don't even want
| to do one a year. Of course it's a different story if
| you're unhappy though, I'd be interviewing regularly too
| in that case.
| paulcole wrote:
| > It's one thing if it truly is 15-30 min, but typically
| one would prepare a bit for interviews
|
| If you're happy in your current role and just looking for
| the perfect situation to move to, there's nearly no prep
| needed for the first interview (assuming the
| technical/coding interview comes later int he process).
| Just grill the person who's interviewing you and get the
| info you want.
| majkinetor wrote:
| > and you're comfortable leaving money and opportunities
| on the table
|
| There are all sorts of things you can do to get the money
| and opportunities that don't involve perpetual
| interviewing.
|
| You don't have to be introvert to not like sort of police
| interrogation.
| twalla wrote:
| Interviewing has to be one of the higher ROI activities
| you can do when it comes to the upside vs time invested.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I recommend negotiating from a position of power whenever
| possible (in this case, a BATNA) [1]. If you're
| interviewing when you want, while you're employed, it's
| on your terms. Don't like how the interview is going?
| "This isn't a good fit, have a great day" and move on to
| the next opportunity. It's only an interrogation if you
| let it be. Don't let it be.
|
| I do agree with you that money and opportunities can be
| had without perpetual interviewing. The goal is to
| increase the number of dice rolls to maximize your
| chances of success. If you can do so without interviewing
| constantly, absolutely! Do it! But if you're comfortable
| constantly exploring work opportunities, and you have the
| time, I recommend doing so.
|
| [1] https://www.pon.harvard.edu/daily/negotiation-skills-
| daily/e... ("Your best alternative to a negotiated
| agreement, or BATNA, is often your best source of
| bargaining power. By cultivating a strong outside
| alternative, you gain the power you need to walk away
| from an unappealing deal.")
|
| (While we're here, here are two great resources on salary
| negotiations as well [2] [3])
|
| [2] http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-
| negotiation/ (patio11 on salary negotiation)
|
| [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=JoshDoody
| (Josh Doody, whom I have no affiliation with, has tons of
| quality material on negotiating roles and comp in
| general)
| majkinetor wrote:
| Of course that you should always look for new work when
| you are still employed, unless in rare cases when you
| have hell.
|
| But as interview is interrogation, its unpleasant and its
| doubtful how much do you learn about opportunities or how
| high is your chances of success with taking into account
| lost time and energy. Making it perpetual sounds like a
| horror to me, and that is true for me even from the
| position of power. I'll rather go different route any
| time if possible.
| sloaken wrote:
| Was it just title, or did you not get the money originally
| offered? Is your role not the same as they said in the interview?
|
| Deep down I would have a trust issue with the company. Although
| often titles are handed out as fake promotions and have little
| meaning. Senior developer vs junior analyst vs architect. They
| all sound different but could be the same job as there are little
| / no laws regulating titles.
|
| Do you enjoy your job? Do you like your pay? Depending, I would
| start shopping your resume.
| ambalaika wrote:
| Yeah, compensation is what we've agreed. The title is lower, as
| well as the scope of work you are trusted with, so I need to
| get +2 levels to get to the most interesting, impactful and
| technically challenging work, which will probably take years at
| this pace. The pay is good, although I could probably get 50%
| more without much effort at other places.
| giantg2 wrote:
| "which will probably take years at this pace."
|
| Isn't that pretty normal? My company has an 18 month waiting
| period between promotions (which they only follow when they
| want to). I'm a midlevel developer with 9 years experience.
| I've only even gotten one promotion.
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(page generated 2021-04-08 23:02 UTC)