[HN Gopher] Which type of exercise is best for the brain? (2016)
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Which type of exercise is best for the brain? (2016)
Author : Ecto5
Score : 81 points
Date : 2021-04-08 17:56 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (well.blogs.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (well.blogs.nytimes.com)
| mcorning wrote:
| My father has run every day for almost 10 years, a combo pack of
| speed and distance, but at least a 5k every day. One thing we
| talked about regarding thinking and running really stuck with me.
|
| He sometimes listens to music and audiobooks so that he wouldn't
| get bored during his runs. Then one day, when his headphones were
| dead, he went without any music. He found himself having a
| conversation in his head, addressing questions that he hadn't
| asked himself in years. Now, it's some truly coveted alone and
| reflection time. He very often comes back from his runs energized
| with new ideas or an organized plan of what he needs to tackle
| next in his job (he's in academia).
|
| I have also found the quiet of running to be invaluable at on
| some days and will often choose the conversation of myself as
| opposed to tuning in and out of an audiobook.
| jacksonkmarley wrote:
| Yeah I enjoy audiobooks while walking but if I'm on a walk at
| lunch and I'm engaged with some interesting thing at work it
| can be quite interesting to let my mind play with the problem
| while I'm on walking autopilot
| bozzcl wrote:
| *in rats
| dang wrote:
| Discussed at the time:
|
| _Which Type of Exercise Is Best for the Brain?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11117929 - Feb 2016 (118
| comments)
|
| Past large related threads -- quality not guaranteed:
|
| _Dance is superior to repetitive physical exercise for brain
| plasticity (2018)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23946732 - July 2020 (214
| comments)
|
| _Evolutionary history and why physical activity is important for
| brain health_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21865579 -
| Dec 2019 (123 comments)
|
| _Ultra-Time-Efficient Exercise Lowers Blood Pressure, Boosts
| Brain Function_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19626995 -
| April 2019 (43 comments)
|
| _This is Your Brain on Exercise (2017)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19474967 - March 2019 (38
| comments)
|
| _How Exercise Might "Clean" the Alzheimer 's Brain_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18228627 - Oct 2018 (209
| comments)
|
| _Exercise Increases Brain Size_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15691885 - Nov 2017 (11
| comments)
|
| _Training exercise boosts brain power, Johns Hopkins researchers
| say_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15508714 - Oct 2017
| (138 comments)
|
| _Exercise as a Preventive or Disease-Modifying Treatment for
| Dementia Brain Aging_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14717547 - July 2017 (72
| comments)
|
| _Exercise Releases Brain-Healthy Protein_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11995637 - June 2016 (180
| comments)
|
| _Which Type of Exercise Is Best for the Brain?_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11117929 - Feb 2016 (118
| comments)
|
| _Exercise during pregnancy gives newborn brain development a
| head start_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7653274 -
| April 2014 (17 comments)
|
| _How exercise boosts brain health_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6548908 - Oct 2013 (42
| comments)
|
| _What happens to our brains when we exercise and how it makes us
| happier_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4580977 - Sept
| 2012 (80 comments)
|
| _How exercise could lead to a better brain_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3881206 - April 2012 (27
| comments)
|
| _How Exercise Fuels the Brain_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3620529 - Feb 2012 (18
| comments)
|
| _Forced Exercise 's Effects on the Brain_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3106799 - Oct 2011 (57
| comments)
|
| _How Exercise Can Strengthen the Brain_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3047554 - Sept 2011 (60
| comments)
|
| _Brain shifts from glucose to lactate fuel source during
| exercise._ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=320714 - Oct
| 2008 (8 comments)
| p1mrx wrote:
| If you want to overclock a CPU, you need a decent power supply.
| If you want to overclock a brain, you need a decent heart and
| lungs. The point of cardio is to improve your body's power
| delivery, so it's one of the more accessible human upgrades.
|
| For me, the biggest blocker was that I perceived sweating as a
| bad thing to avoid, until I realized that I could buy clothes to
| sweat in, and shower at arbitrary times, not just in the morning.
| huachimingo wrote:
| "Solvitur ambulando" - it is solved by walking[1].
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvitur_ambulando
| dzonga wrote:
| we've evolved to have two legs and walk efficiently. walking is
| greatly underestimated these days due to mechanical inventions.
| walk walk at least 5 miles daily. now I walk before starting
| work - feel a burst of energy, mind is cleared up. I try walk
| slowly.
| enriquto wrote:
| Definitely. In my case, biking has a similar effect. It seems
| that I get most of my work settled during my morning bike
| commute.
| 1-6 wrote:
| "Solvitur lavando" Shower thoughts...
| challengly wrote:
| First step: Exercise at all.
|
| Second step: Optimize, but be careful that it doesn't end up
| compromising step 1.
| tgb wrote:
| What's the status of adult neurogenesis in humans? Wikipedia says
| that it's controversial whether or not it exists [1]. If we don't
| know that happens in humans, what can we make of an a study about
| exercise-mediated neurogenesis in rats?
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_neurogenesis
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Rodent studies aren't really great for measuring this because
| it's nearly impossible to control for the rodents' enjoyment of
| each exercise.
|
| We know that rodents enjoy running wheels because they use them
| voluntarily. It's not surprising that the exercise they enjoy is
| the one that seems to produce the most benefits.
|
| For humans: Doing any exercise is better than doing no exercise.
| Doing frequent exercise is better than doing infrequent exercise.
|
| The most important thing is to pick an exercise that you enjoy,
| so you'll be more likely to get out and do it and less likely to
| come up with excuses to skip a day.
|
| Even better: Find an exercise that includes some social activity,
| even if it's just getting outside and seeing other people in
| passing as you run past or being in a gym near other people.
| Social exposure is great for mental health, so combining it with
| exercise is a good one-two punch.
|
| We do have some human studies on BDNF (measured via serum,
| because we can't get into human brains obviously) and exercise:
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3772595/ They didn't
| study different types of exercise, but they did find that longer
| duration exercise produced greater elevations of BDNF. You don't
| have to run marathons to capture some of this benefit. A long
| walk is good enough to get started.
| conistonwater wrote:
| > _even if it 's just getting outside and seeing other people
| in passing as you run past_
|
| There is nothing social about that at all, that's just not what
| the word means.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Social exposure is a broad definition that doesn't
| necessarily require talking to someone.
|
| Obviously having a conversation with someone is more of a
| social interaction than sitting quietly in a room with your
| peers or walking past another person, but any amount of being
| around people is still more social exposure than being
| isolated alone in a room.
|
| It's the same reason that coding alone in a private office is
| different than coding quietly in an open office: Being around
| people is social exposure.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Maybe "social" isn't the right word, but it's a break from
| isolation. I find that going to the gym just to get out of
| the house and be in the presence of other people seems to
| make me feel better. I don't really talk to anyone there,
| unless it happens to be someone I already know.
| mym1990 wrote:
| This feels a little harsh. It is known that when humans see
| other humans doing similar things a bond(empathy) can be
| created without ever even talking to that person.
|
| When I drive my Jeep and do that little Jeep wave to other
| Jeeps, that gives me a sense of community with those
| people(no matter how dumb or weird people driving other cars
| think it is).
|
| When you run and someone runs past you and you do the little
| head nod, that is absolutely social, you absolutely relate to
| that person and create a small social bond.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| It's also fun running into those other runners later. I
| used to run on a 5k trail near my office (for about 5
| years), and would see a lot of colleagues later and
| recognize them from an afternoon or lunchtime run. It
| created another point of relation for us besides just
| sharing an office and a mutual boss four levels above us.
| llarsson wrote:
| Yes, whether results for rodents on a seven week exercise
| program actually transfer to humans remains to be seen.
|
| But I would like to point out that besides subjective
| preference and enjoyment, it is quite clear to me that humans
| are pretty crap compared to everything physical, except for
| long-distance running.
|
| We are not the fastest. Not the strongest. Not the best
| swimmers or climbers.
|
| But as an animal, and on a population level, we are really good
| at jogging.
|
| So besides being useful for endurance hunting, perhaps it is
| also the kind of upkeep we need to stay healthy physically as
| well as mentally?
| tejtm wrote:
| It is the lack of fur allowing sweat cooling that prevents
| heat stroke that made us the apex predators; we jogged all
| mega fauna we met to extinction.
| cma wrote:
| Other animals sweat though, like horses, hippos (no fur).
| rootusrootus wrote:
| We know that fundamentally it's our endurance that gives us a
| physical edge, but I am curious...
|
| > We are not the fastest. Not the strongest. Not the best
| swimmers or climbers.
|
| Are humans the best _in aggregate_ at all of these? Sure,
| there is always going to be an animal that is faster in one
| aspect, but are there other animals that are better than
| humans at all of them?
| nend wrote:
| I mean if the criteria is just those four: strength, top
| speed, climbing ability, swimming ability - there's
| probably a lot of animals that are subjectively better than
| us.
|
| It would depend on how you measure/aggregate it but off the
| top of my head you could make an argument for: most large
| cats, chimpanzee, orangutan, bears, some pigs, etc.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| It may be that endurance is all we got. But I was
| thinking that a chimp is very strong and can climb, but
| is he any good at running and swimming? A cat is a heck
| of a runner, but isn't really a great climber aside from
| specific situations. Humans are fairly adaptable.
|
| But probably it just comes down to our endurance/ability
| to control body temperature, and big brains to devise
| creative ways of defeating other animals.
| mym1990 wrote:
| A physically peak and coordinated human possibly, but it
| probably comes down to what traits you're actually
| comparing. Man's advantage is our ability to make tools and
| be creative. Without proper training and mental prep the
| average human isn't that fast, can't climb well, won't swim
| more than 500 feet. If you put the average human today in
| the middle of the Amazon with nothing, I don't really know
| if that works out great for most people.
| Swizec wrote:
| Running and walking seems to be particularly good for thinking.
| Could be a link to our evolution, or the fact that it's a
| simple exercise you don't have to focus on and are free to
| think.
|
| Sports are great for getting in the zone but usually too
| mentally taxing for background thinking. Boxing, for example,
| is amazing relaxation but you really can't think about anything
| else during a round.
|
| Sometimes high intensity stop all other thoughts is exactly
| what the brain needs. Other times prolonged low intensity gives
| just the space you need to hear yourself think.
| hi41 wrote:
| Someone said that doing highly repetitive exercises like
| running can cause increase in the stress hormone cortisol and
| hence we must do that in limit. Is that true?
| mikestew wrote:
| No offense, but we're supposed to counter argue against an
| anonymous "someone" for which you don't even provide a
| source? Post a link, we can go from there.
|
| That said, I've been a competitive distance runner for over
| 40 years. What adverse effects should I be seeing? 'cuz I
| can't think of any.
| hi41 wrote:
| It was my close family who told that. I told him that I
| got an Peloton bike for exercise. At that point he told
| me what I wrote above. It was part of a conversation and
| not a webpage that can be linked. Sorry about that.
| hluska wrote:
| Hey friend, you have no reason to apologize. That idea
| comes from a former endurance athlete turned fitness
| blogger named Mark Sisson. It's quite a famous article
| amongst competitive long distance athletes, mostly
| because it ignores how we actually train.
|
| Mark Sisson's entire idea is based off of the idea that
| long distance athletes train at what's called tempo pace.
| Tempo pace is about 80-85% of maximum heart rate.
|
| He went on to argue that consistently training at long
| distances increases cortisol levels and said this is bad.
|
| There are two problems with this. First, distance runners
| don't do all of their training at tempo pace because
| that's stupid. Second, cortisol isn't all bad - the body
| needs to be over stressed at points in order to create
| the adaptations that we are exercising for.
|
| Point being, you've got to be careful just like you are
| with any form of exercise. If you destroy your body day
| after day for long enough, bad things will eventually
| happen to you.
|
| The important thing to always remember is that more
| runners die from drinking too much water than die from
| not drinking enough. Everything can and will kill if
| taken to the very extreme.
| hi41 wrote:
| Wow, I didn't know there was so much backstory to this
| one. Thanks!
| hluska wrote:
| No problem at all. You asked a really good question and
| deserved a suitable answer. Take care and if you get into
| running, I hope we get to grind hills together someday!!!
|
| Good luck!!!
| hluska wrote:
| This idea comes from Mark Sisson and frankly, if you've
| been a competitive runner for that long, you should
| likely know that and be prepared to argue it. I've been a
| competitive runner for a fraction of that time and have
| had this conversation so many times it's muscle memory.
|
| The article this idea comes from is based on the idea
| that long distance runners spending their whole runs at
| 80 - 85% of their max heart rate. That's only about 20
| seconds off my 5k race pace if I want to compete at that
| distance. There's no way that I'd keep that pace at
| distance - my coach would fire me, I'd be an idiot and
| I'd overtrain myself into oblivion.
| mikestew wrote:
| So it's based on a crap premise? No wonder I've not heard
| of it, and for that I make no apologies.
| hluska wrote:
| No but you could have been kind and helped someone learn.
| Instead you chose to respond with ego...just like you did
| now!
| throwaway1777 wrote:
| It's not true. Also cortisol is not actually bad for you in
| the context of exercise.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Basically, ignore any subject matter that tries to reduce
| cortisol to being "bad".
|
| Cortisol isn't inherently good or bad. It's context-
| specific. It's not something you want to universally lower.
| In fact, if you take supplements or medicine that
| significantly lowers cortisol (e.g. by inhibiting cortisol
| synthesis) you'll find that you don't feel very good at
| all. You need an appropriate amount of cortisol to respond
| to activities.
|
| Running extreme amounts (100s of miles per week over and
| over again) should be approached with additional education
| and appropriate attention to one's health, but generally
| speaking someone running for fun and paying attention to
| their body (e.g. don't force yourself to run if your body
| is telling you to take a break) doesn't need to worry about
| anything.
| vsareto wrote:
| >Sometimes high intensity stop all other thoughts is exactly
| what the brain needs.
|
| HIIT has been great for the rest of the day as long as I
| don't overdo it, but yeah, completely focused on the workout
| during that.
| Swizec wrote:
| I find HIIT doesn't do it for me. Can't push myself hard
| enough in such short bursts because I have ridiculous
| cardio conditioning* from running. Boxing is great because
| it's hiit but with technique and tactics and strategy.
|
| * ridiculous conditioning in that I can keep average heart
| rate at 155bpm for 2 hours no problem. Most hiit isn't long
| enough to get me above 110
| hnrodey wrote:
| I have a lengthy background in hiit (specifically
| CrossFit). And I say this in the most polite way
| possible.
|
| You're doing HIIT wrong if you cannot elevate your heart
| rate beyond 110 bpm. Whatever you're doing, there's a
| huge gap in the training programming/protocol.
|
| Everyone suffers in CrossFit. Everyone.
| f311a wrote:
| Can confirm. It's pretty easy to elevate heart rate while
| doing HIIT. Even if you do it for 10 years.
| Swizec wrote:
| I agree. My problem is that I am unable to push myself
| hard enough for such short periods. My explosivity isn't
| good enough.
|
| And I have fast recovery which makes typical rest periods
| too long compared to how hard I'm able to push myself
| during the thing.
|
| Probably would work better if I got a personal trainer to
| push me specifically rather than in a group/video setting
|
| HIIT with heavy weights works very well for me, but I
| don't have those available at home. When gyms are open I
| prefer boxing anyway :)
| hluska wrote:
| Have you ever tried taking off your shoes at the end of a
| run, doing some 100m gliders and then hard 40m sprints??
| I ran barefoot all last outdoor season so your mileage
| may vary but I can always get into high intensity zones
| when I do that.
|
| Or, if that doesn't do the trick for you, mixing burpees
| and light jogging is a lot of fun.
| conistonwater wrote:
| HIIT means all-out sprints with short rests in between,
| but that's (unfortunately) not how it's presented in
| social media sometimes. No matter your shape, running
| all-out sprints in that particular way will get you to
| the max heart rate. It's just there are too many people
| misusing the word now.
| mips_avatar wrote:
| You won't get to max HR from a 40 meter dash.
| conistonwater wrote:
| No, of course not, but that's not the correct protocol
| for HIIT. The first few intervals definitely don't get
| you to max heart rate, that's why the rest periods are
| kept short.
| vsareto wrote:
| I thought they present it as ratios as well, so 1:1 is 1
| minute on, 1 minute off, or 2m on, 2m off. They give
| different ratios depending on your level of conditioning,
| so like 2:1 for fit folks or 1:2 if you're not as fit.
| I've heard max effort most of the time, but some others
| have just recommended doing what feels comfortable for
| newer folks.
| conistonwater wrote:
| I got it from searching on google scholar, there were
| lots of papers on it because it's both a buzzword and a
| seemingly effective training technique for even high-
| level athletes. The basic issue with the whole concept is
| that it's _supposed_ to produce similar improvements to
| long steady sessions of cardio, but only very hard
| efforts with short intervals produce such improvements.
| So beginners can 't really do hard efforts very well, and
| if they also use long rest periods, and especially if
| they don't go all-out, then the benefits aren't there for
| them at all and it just becomes false advertising. I
| think it's a little sad how a valuable bit of sports
| science got mangled. If you do all this stuff to save
| time and you don't even get the benefits, then doing low-
| intensity cardio is just so much better. I run a lot
| these days but I can't imagine an all-out anaerobic
| sprint that's 2m long, it seems both difficult and
| biologically impossible, I think that's just regular
| interval training (not _high-intensity_ ).
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| What do you normally do to get to a 155 bpm heart rate?
| Not an expert but when I've done HIIT workouts, they've
| always started with a mild warm up to elevate the heart
| rate. Maybe you'd benefit from something more strenuous
| to start.
| swader999 wrote:
| Sprint up hill or grab onto straps and try repeated jumps
| into the air from a deep squat. Try adding a weighted
| vest if this isn't enough. If that doesn't work you
| should join the Navy Seals.
| redis_mlc wrote:
| Somebodu approaching a 4 minute mile runs at almost
| double the speed of normal people and is twice as
| efficient.
|
| That might be what the person mentioned, and I hope he
| enjoys it while it lasts.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| Thanks, however I have no issue getting my outta shape
| heart to 155 bpm! Was wondering if OP needed a stronger
| warmup to get their heart rate in the "target zone" for
| the HIIT work.
| Swizec wrote:
| 2 hours of running at 4:45/km keeps your heart rate nice
| and high.
|
| When I ran a marathon in 3:24:xx my average heart rate
| was 170bpm.
| johnohara wrote:
| Continuous fartlek style running will get you to 155+
| bpm. Back off the pace to actively recover to 120 bpm,
| then go after it again.
|
| Problem is, you need to be fit to do this right, reducing
| the risk of injury. Always preferred fartlek to repeat
| intervals on the track. Both have their place however.
| tomjakubowski wrote:
| Oh yes, I remember giggling at Fartlek in high school.
| johnohara wrote:
| Few terms are more perfectly suited to the high school
| mind.
| hluska wrote:
| If anyone is new to fartleks, it's a Swedish word that
| means 'speed play'. They're an excellent tool for
| training.
|
| Maybe be careful the first few times you type that on a
| phone - my poor running coach got a lot of text messages
| about 'fart leaks' when I was trying to report on my
| training. They are not the same.
|
| Edit - If you'd like to try one, Mona fartleks are pretty
| well known.
|
| https://www.runnerstribe.com/features/the-mona-fartlek-a-
| cla...
| mantas wrote:
| As a cyclist, I noticed an interesting difference between
| road cycling and mountain biking. Road cycling is zen
| meditation. Great for coming up with solutions. Meanwhile MTB
| is entirely different. No chance to think. But great to
| remove built up stress.
|
| In my experience, both is necessary in different life
| situations. And sometimes both. First reduce stress, then
| evaluate the source and remove it. Otherwise it's permanent
| rollercoaster.
| boringg wrote:
| 100% agree - never realized this when I got into the
| sports. Cycling lets me go deep into thought and break
| things apart. Mountain biking is all action so you can
| actually tune out.
| bosswipe wrote:
| I've always hated the idea of gyms or solitary exercize because
| of the social/fun factor. Why do a boring workout when you
| could play basketball or tennis or a hundred other active
| social activities. Admittedly it was easier to find sports
| partners when I was in college but it's still not that hard to
| find as an adult with a bit of effort.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Depends on what you're getting out of the exercise. I never
| found sports (except when I played soccer regularly) to get
| me the kind of workout and results I was after (even then I
| was in great cardio condition and could run for hours, but my
| upper body was weak). Even my friends who prefer sports still
| spend a few hours (2-5) a week doing other training,
| including strength or even just more focused cardio, often
| selected to support or complement their preferred sport.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| That's you and that's fine but others prefer more solitary
| passtimes.
| admax88q wrote:
| > For this regimen, the animals were placed on little treadmills
| and required to sprint at a very rapid and strenuous pace for
| three minutes, followed by two minutes of slow skittering, with
| the entire sequence repeated twice more, for a total of 15
| minutes of running.
|
| I wonder how exactly they were "required" to maintain this pace.
| Sounds like it could easily have been traumatic, which would have
| its own effects on neurogenesis.
| ipnon wrote:
| Anecdotally, high intensity exercise like deadlifts or full
| sprints doesn't leave much room for thinking. But on a half
| marathon over a few hours, with nothing but the sound of the wind
| and your feet on the ground, after the first 15 minutes you've
| already thought through your plans for today, then after the
| first hour you've already thought back to that mistake you made
| last week, then it's uncharted territory. So the ability to do
| some thinking during low intensity exercise surely contributes
| some benefits to the brain. It's hard to feel any sort of
| neurosis at the end of a long run for example.
|
| My guess is that increased heart rate and blood pressure
| increases, and sustains for a long time, blood flow in the brain
| compared to sedentary activity or short, high intensity exercise.
| From my experience, lots of lifting was great for improving mood,
| but it wasn't until I began running medium and long distances
| regularly that I felt any smarter than my couch potato baseline.
| atat7024 wrote:
| They don't leave much _oxygen_ for thinking, haha
| User23 wrote:
| Heavy lifting works the CNS like nothing else. Granted we don't
| think of recruiting motor units as having anything to do with
| cognition, but fact is it's all one system.
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