[HN Gopher] Metis and Bodybuilders
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Metis and Bodybuilders
Author : feross
Score : 68 points
Date : 2021-04-07 20:46 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (astralcodexten.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (astralcodexten.substack.com)
| [deleted]
| oh_sigh wrote:
| Is it possible that what is best for bodybuilders is not what is
| best for average joes?
|
| Look at the first 4 bullet points that list the studies. Two of
| the studies look at "recreationally trained men", one of the
| study looks at untrained males, and only one study looks at "well
| trained males". But for the well trained males, their 1RM max
| bench press was ~100kg and 1RM max back squat was 120 kg. I
| cannot even begin to fathom what male can not even bench 2 plates
| and would consider themselves well trained with respect to weight
| lifting. I do olympic lifts and power lifts, and literally the
| first squat I ever did in my life with a bar on my back was more
| than 120kg.
|
| The general problem with bodybuilding knowledge is that literally
| everything in someone's life will affect the results they get.
| Their genetics. How their sleep is. How their stress levels are.
| What kind of job they do. Whether they've trained before. Whether
| they do other exercises. What their diet is like. All of that
| will have an effect regardless of what you do in the gym. So
| maybe someone hears slightly suboptimal advice about rest timing,
| because the person giving it has the rest of their life on point
| and appears to get good results from their suboptimal timing.
| qvrjuec wrote:
| This is interesting, but the author focuses mainly on the
| hormonal benefits of different rest protocols. These benefits are
| completely negligible when bodybuilders are pumping themselves
| full of exogenous steroids/hormones. I'm interested to see if a
| study like this could be performed on hormonally controlled test
| subjects
| atum47 wrote:
| I have a huge interest in documenting muscle growth and fat
| burning. I've been working out since I was 14 years old (on and
| off again). The most fit I ever got was back in 2015 (the company
| I was working for was declaring bankruptcy and I had a lot of
| free time in my hands). During this time I would cook my own
| meals, eat every 2 hours, workout at a gym and on the street
| (street workout - calisthenics). I was able to get a 6 pack and
| some muscles, but I failed to collect data about my process. Ever
| since then, I dream about getting fat (which I did during the
| pandemic) and then start the whole thing again, this time,
| collecting data. I do have a lot of "bro" Knowledge (you get this
| for free when you go to the gym regularly) but I would love the
| get the science also.
| [deleted]
| perardi wrote:
| _"Online fitness advice. You will never find a more wretched hive
| of scum and villainy. We must be cautious."_
|
| The amount of contradictory advice slung online in regards to
| fitness is immense. _(Same as it ever was, the old muscle
| magazines were bad, too.)_ Lots and lots of "evidence"
| amalgamated from rumors, second-hand sources, that old guy at the
| gym, and teeny tiny studies that have never been replicated.
|
| As you go on a fitness journey _(it hurt to type that)_ , you go
| through decision paralysis, overbearing overconfidence that you
| know what's up, and you end up with humility that boils down to
| "iron ain't gonna move itself".
| dnhz wrote:
| I think weightlifting (and also nutrition) have an intersection
| between one's choices and the scientific literature. From what
| I've seen of bodybuilders on youtube, there are many that base
| their programs and recommendations on what they believe is
| scientifically optimal. In most other areas of personal decision-
| making, you won't find wisdom in academic literature. For
| instance, remodeling your kitchen or dating. You might seek out
| advice from various sources, but those sources probably wouldn't
| include academic research.
|
| The other thing about this article is that in using forums and
| websites to gauge the view of the bodybuilding community, you end
| up sampling more dedicated people who are interested in this sort
| of discussion. There might be people following all sorts of weird
| stuff ("woo") based on what their buddies at the gym are doing.
|
| I wonder whether there are political issues where the
| "literature" is ahead of where natural intuition is. For
| instance, the minimum wage. Microeconomic intuition says raising
| the minimum wage reduces the number of jobs available. I think
| there are lots of studies out there saying that this intuition is
| false. The minimum wage's effect on jobs is something fuzzier
| than scientific fact however, and it kind of falls outside the
| concept of metis too.
| virtue3 wrote:
| The 1-3 minutes comes from a lot of places.
|
| I find it -really- amusing that people forget that weightlifting
| is an olympic sport. There have been -plenty- of studies on it.
| The main issue tends to be that the russian protocols don't
| necessarily work for 'natural' athletes.
|
| Shorter rest periods are used for conditioning, not muscle
| growth.
|
| You can be a lazy slob and wait 3-5 minutes between each set. But
| you'll be at the gym forever.
|
| What these studies always completely fail to grasp is:
|
| If I have 2hrs to do my workout, and I take 5 minutes between
| sets, how much work am I going to do? What if I just took 1
| minute between sets?
|
| What if it's close to competition time? Do I want to be huffing
| and puffing on stage? can I waste time with cardio or should I
| cut rest time down between sets?
|
| There's a lot of variables and not all of them are equating to
| optimal muscle growth.
| qznc wrote:
| You could pair exercises to save some time.
|
| See RRR:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/wiki/kb/recommend...
| blunte wrote:
| If you focus on the big three - squats, deads, and bench press
| - and you only do one of those per day at the gym, then it only
| takes an hour total. Time under load is about 20 minutes, and
| the rest is rest.
|
| I read books or even take my laptop if it's quiet enough to
| work (pre COVID).
|
| Of course they say you should do nothing in breaks except think
| about your without, but that is only for the special people who
| are absolutely committed (and obsessed).
|
| Those long breaks allow you to regain a lot of capacity and
| enable bigger increases up to the pinnacle in the last set
| where you set your new 1RM or come close.
| travisjungroth wrote:
| I've found flash card apps are really good for long rests.
| Doesn't suck your attention out of the room like
| email/news/social/texting, but easier to pick up and put down
| than a book. I also guess there's a benefit to learning in
| that state.
| megameter wrote:
| My own key variable, as it turns out, is "time between deciding
| to lift and grasping weight". Which means that keeping an
| adjustable dumbbell by my bed and using it a few times a week
| is close to optimal. While having the gym is nice for the
| additional equipment, this plan means that I don't have to
| think about _making_ time for the gym since I can just do some
| more around bedtime or wakeup. Load, reps and sets are far less
| important than the factor of being able to add more volume
| whenever I want.
|
| And that does reflect lifestyle goals - I am not going for a
| competition physique, and the gym isn't my social club. I am
| just aiming for a little bit of progress year over year, and
| scientifically optimal muscle growth would actually get in the
| way of other plans. I was in the habit of tracking it all pre-
| pandemic, but now I just do Ali counts - "I only start counting
| when it starts hurting."
| MauranKilom wrote:
| I've wondered whether you could spend the rest time for one
| muscle group by doing an exercise for a different muscle group.
| Is that a no-no, or is it not done for practical reasons (the
| logistics of jumping back and forth between machines)?
| blunte wrote:
| Remember that it's your brain driving the coordinated
| electrical signals (and maintaining steadily increasing
| strength of those signals) which makes the muscles do the
| work.
|
| Your brain needs recovery time.
| bbarnett wrote:
| This seems sarcastic or wildly inaccurate.
|
| To clarify, two things.
|
| The brain does not directly drive the muscles. It does not
| have copper running to them, providing a charge. Instead,
| cell after cell transmits the signal, from brain to muscle,
| each cell providing its own charge. The brain expends more
| energy thinking about abstract ideas, than telling a muscle
| to move.
|
| Second thing, healthy, fit people run for hours, bike for
| hours, without issue. As a teenager, I'd work on a farm for
| 10 hours, picking fruit, throwing bales of hay, digging, on
| and on without tire.
|
| Yet just continually walking, uses more "brain telling
| muscles what to do", than any single heavy lift plus even
| perhaps 10 seconds of break.
|
| Realistically, writing cursive with a pen, typing fast,
| should use as much brain energy, for fine, detailed control
| requires many different muscles all being used at once,
| hence more signaling.
| ubercore wrote:
| It's not really, central nervous system exhaustion needs
| to be managed with strength training. And it takes quite
| a bit of concentration to lift properly, a short mental
| break is really useful.
| bbarnett wrote:
| I added more details while you were writing this I think.
|
| Your nerves don't care how heavy something is. Fine
| muscle control is just as intensive as anything to the
| nerves. Talking uses waaaay more nerve and muscle control
| than lifting heavy weight.
|
| Breaks are required so that the blood can carry away
| waste, and replenish glucose and oxygen. That's all.
| user982 wrote:
| You're describing supersets.
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| Cliffs: Contrary to broscience, longer rest periods between sets
| (3-5 minutes) are more effective at building muscle than shorter
| rest periods (30 seconds to 2 minutes).
|
| As someone who has been engaged in weightlifting for almost 30
| years, this is no surprise. It probably has little to do with the
| rest period itself and more to do with the intensity of exercise.
| You simply can't train with weights in the 5RM-10RM range, going
| to failure or a rep or two shy of failure, and only rest 30
| seconds or 1 minute between sets. Such short rest periods will
| force you to use much lighter weights and stop way short of
| failure.
| ishjoh wrote:
| I would also be curious if exercise type needs to be included
| in this. For example calf raises vs squats. I find that for
| calf raises since they are so targeted I'm able to recover very
| quickly, but for squats I typically need to wait that 3-5
| minutes
| ajcp wrote:
| > It probably has little to do with the rest period itself and
| more to do with the intensity of exercise.
|
| It's my impression that the actual point of the article is that
| even though bodybuilding as a community is perceived and
| perceives itself as being driven by scientific research, it is
| still almost completely anecdote driven, even when there are
| scientific findings readily available that fly in the face of
| or more accurately explain things than anecdote.
|
| It's interesting that you've illustrated this so perfectly. In
| the article it provides the research findings as to why longer
| rest periods are beneficial, yet you've still provided your
| anecdotal impressions as to why it would be the case.
|
| I'm not trying to get at you or put you on blast; I really do
| find this interesting.
| throwaway_6142 wrote:
| > even though bodybuilding as a community is perceived and
| perceives itself as being driven by scientific research, it
| is still almost completely anecdote driven,
|
| Well I mean, it IS driven by scientific research, just not
| research into exercise physiology as much as organic
| chemistry
| legohead wrote:
| > The 3-minute rest group achieved greater muscle growth.
|
| How much greater? Is it significant, like 50% more? Otherwise,
| why can't we just say "do whatever feels comfortable for you."
|
| I think the real goal would be to do whatever keeps you happy and
| coming back to the gym. Long rest periods make me feel
| bored/annoyed, while short ones make me feel stressed.
| lordnacho wrote:
| The problem is that epistemology is still its own thing,
| regardless of what you're doing.
|
| If your thing is lifting weights, you need well designed, large
| n, unbiased studies about that. If your thing is cooking, you
| need studies about cooking.
|
| Metis seems to boil down to interest and culture. Those are
| certainly things that might give you some sensible priors, but in
| the end you know things because the mechanics of discovery are
| what they are.
|
| Note that noise is a big issue. Any given bodybuilder can only
| follow one program at a time, and can only change so often. So
| someone who happens upon a working concept might never really
| know why it worked.
| bluenose69 wrote:
| I thought the article referred to the Metis people, one of three
| indigenous cultures mentioned in the Canadian Constitution. It
| took a few ticks to realize that it was using "metis" in another
| meaning.
| slibhb wrote:
| In Greek mythology, Metis is Athena's mother. As an descriptor,
| it means cunning.
| Igelau wrote:
| I had a copy of _D 'Aulaire's Book of Greek Myths_ as a kid.
| My favorite illustration was the full page shot of Athena
| busting out of Zeus's head in all her armored glory.
| jdminhbg wrote:
| And in this context (I think inspired by James Scott's
| _Seeing Like A State_ ), it refers to local knowledge that
| isn't necessarily obvious to outsiders. Think of something
| like "you have to build in retry logic because that API tends
| to fail every fifth time."
| [deleted]
| sharkjacobs wrote:
| Same, I was hoping to find an article about some kind of little
| known bodybuilding metis subculture
| the-smug-one wrote:
| This is pretty weird. Most sources that he uses for what BB:ers
| think are threads from bodybuilding.com (not a lot of pros spend
| a lot of time writing posts on there) and some place called
| outlift.com (never heard of that in my lifting life). This is
| like listening in on 1st year CS students to figure out what
| professional software engineers think.
|
| If you really wanted to know what BB:ers think about rest time,
| why not see what they've said themselves? It's not like BB:ers
| don't talk about what they do and why they do it.
|
| Just as an aside: strongerbyscience.com has pretty good articles
| (owner has MSc in exercise science and at least one guy has a Phd
| in this stuff, sources are extensively cited).
| redisman wrote:
| There have been more local bodybuilding sites and magazines
| since the 90s where professionals post too. It's more of a
| cargo cult mentality. Sample size of one genetic freak on
| steroids and growth hormones got huge on this program so it
| must be generally applicable.
| Igelau wrote:
| Well, the pros historically tend to leave out the, ah,
| _pharmaceutical_ side of the equation when they write about
| "what they do".
| femiagbabiaka wrote:
| That's changing quite a bit, but agreed.
| Daho0n wrote:
| The talking yes but not the pharmaceutical side.
| nordsieck wrote:
| > Well, the pros historically tend to leave out the, ah,
| pharmaceutical side of the equation when they write about
| "what they do".
|
| There are tested competitions.
|
| I'll admit that that doesn't guarantee that no one uses
| banned substances there, but the finalists are generally
| quite a bit smaller than those in the untested competitions,
| so at the very least they're substantially cutting back.
| gameswithgo wrote:
| worse than that the stuff in magazines and such is often
| entirely fabricated
| dnhz wrote:
| I think the author is assessing what the average bodybuilder
| (i.e. not a pro, someone interested in lifting weights to look
| good) thinks about rest times. And on this question, it seems
| like the average belief has caught up (or agrees with) what the
| most recent scientific studies are showing.
| 99_00 wrote:
| >Traditional bro wisdom holds short rest periods of 1-3 minutes
| are optimal for bodybuilding.
|
| The papers cited don't contradict "traditional bro wisdom". If
| anything, the time window given by "bro wisdom" is too long.
|
| But there are additional factors at play. If a workout takes too
| long and doesn't fit into someone's schedule, week after week,
| year after year, they won't work out.
|
| A person resting for 1 minute won't see as much growth as someone
| resting for 2.5 minutes. But they will see more growth than the
| person who skips workouts or just quit because they have a life
| and things to do.
|
| So giving people a broad range to work with may not be 'optimal'
| but may result in more people being more successful.
|
| What is the difference in muscle gain between 1 minute an 3
| anyway? Does it make up for missed workouts and time off?
| hodder wrote:
| Absolutely, this is a practicality matter. Further, while the
| evidence on rest periods is mediocre, the evidence on
| increasing volume leading to greater hypertrophy is crystal
| clear. If you have an hour to workout, more reps is clearly
| going to win out for muscle hypertrophy over resting 5 min
| between sets and completing only 9 sets or less in a workout.
| Muscle hypertrophy (as opposed to strength) follows a clear
| dose response relationship. More volume is better. More sitting
| around during training sessions equals lower volume.
|
| If sets and reps are equated, sure resting longer is more
| effective. In fact, if you are equating reps and sets in a
| study, the longer rest group will have higher volume, defined
| by sum of reps x weight, as the lower rest period group will
| lift lighter because of increased fatigue. I find it hard to
| believe many bodybuilders would disagree with that statement.
|
| However, in real life, sets and reps will not be equated. You
| use what time you have and maximizing volume wins (reps x
| weight, assuming the weight is reasonably difficult).
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6303131/
|
| In an ideal world for bodybuilders, perhaps they'd sit at the
| gym for 2.5 hours to complete a workout, but people have lives
| outside of lifting weights. Even pros.
|
| Finally, the author seems to really think bodybuilders are by
| and large clueless "bros". While this might be true for some, I
| think the average bodybuilder consumes far more academic
| literature than people involved in almost any other activity
| outside of academia. Bodybuilders are on average fairly well
| read and up to date on the scientific consensus thanks to
| people like Mike Isratel, Jeff Nippard, Brad Shoenfeld, Brett
| Contreras, Lyle McDonald, and Layne Norton to list just a few.
| heymijo wrote:
| > _the evidence on increasing volume leading to greater
| hypertrophy is crystal clear._
|
| To a point. It also depends on your level of experience and
| age.
|
| Systemic volume also needs to be accounted for. Generally
| speaking 10-20 sets per muscle per week. This can be from one
| session or spread out over multiple sessions.
|
| I'm 38, have been lifting weights for 20 years (do not and
| never have used anabolic steroids of other performance
| enhancing drugs). if I try to do 20 sets per muscle group
| over the course of a week I will run my body into the ground.
|
| Schoenfeld, the lead author on your link has research on
| these topics. His Instagram is a good aggregator of his work.
|
| https://www.instagram.com/bradschoenfeldphd
| valuearb wrote:
| Why not just switch body parts?
|
| I always do my push exercises separated by my pull exercises,
| and rarely rest more than a minute. Super time efficient.
| UweSchmidt wrote:
| "Bodybuilders" is a broad term - the top bodybuilders are
| definitively up to date on the science. Maybe they train with
| long breaks (but tell their clients (and the fitness rags) that
| short breaks are ok so normal people can finish the workout in a
| timely fashion and keep up a routine) or have a complex training
| (to stimulate growth from an already high level) with variables
| the studies didn't capture.
|
| On the other hand an authority on bodybuilding better be
| _shredded_.
| blunte wrote:
| If your goal is to get swole (sorry couldn't help myself), then
| higher rep lower weight sets with shorter rest periods is the
| way.
|
| But if you want to be as strong as possible and stay in a weight
| category (best strength to bodyweight ratio), you do small sets
| of big weights with set rest periods long enough to get really
| bored and fidgety while you watch the clock hands move.
|
| The Russians have known this for a long time, and so have the
| best performing competitive lifters.
|
| It takes remarkably little besides a lot of food and a caveman
| simple lifting regime to outperform most of the pretty boys who
| obsess over the hype programs.
| femiagbabiaka wrote:
| Yep. You want to really get your mind blown, see the level of
| research that the community has done on anabolic compounds vs.
| the knowledge of the average endocrinologist.
| bedobi wrote:
| The broscientist bodybuilders are wrong about almost everything
| they think they know about performance enhancing drugs. Also,
| to the degree endocrinologists and doctors in general don't
| "know" about tren, dbol or what have you, it's because
| overwhelmingly those drugs aren't used or even approved for use
| in medicine and never have been.
| perardi wrote:
| I have to disagree a bit. There have been plenty of laypeople
| who have advanced the general knowledge of anabolics for
| purposes of abuse. See:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Duchaine
|
| But: I'd be scared if I had a doctor who know anything about
| tren. Trenbolone was never approved for humans. It's for
| making thicc cows. In fact, if your doctor _does_ know about
| tren, check the diploma on the wall, because your HMO might
| have actually put you with a veterinarian to save money.
|
| _(But then you might be able to score trenbolone and
| ketamine from that vet. Hmm. Ideas...)_
| bseidensticker wrote:
| The author seems to ignore the fact that "1m rest periods is
| best" and "5m rest periods maximizes hypertrophy when volume is
| kept constant" can both be correct when you consider that:
|
| - Volume is EXTREMELY important - People have a finite amount of
| time to lift weights
|
| The person doing 30 work sets in 60 minutes is going to get more
| gainz than someone doing 10 work sets in 60 minutes.
| mrits wrote:
| He does mention that in the article actually.
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