[HN Gopher] Running shoe tech: issues for the integrity of runni...
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Running shoe tech: issues for the integrity of running (2020)
Author : rstarast
Score : 37 points
Date : 2021-04-06 10:00 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (sportsscientists.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (sportsscientists.com)
| janekm wrote:
| The main argument of the article seems to be that some runners
| get more benefit from new shoe technology than others (which may
| be true, and may or may not be mitigated by other companies
| developing different variants). However it makes me wonder
| whether this hasn't always been the case... if shoes had been
| banned in the sport entirely then probably other people would
| have been successful?
|
| Also the comparison with tennis is a bit silly... you won't get
| far in tennis without a racket that costs a whole lot more than
| any Nike shoe...
| unexpected wrote:
| Most pro level tennis rackets are $200-$250. The Nike Shoes in
| question are $180.
| piva00 wrote:
| Not just _a_ racket, you 'll need at least 3-4 rackets to
| rotate around during a match to avoid losing too much string
| tension. Preferably all the same, all tensioned at the same
| time before a match, etc.
|
| I played tennis a little bit competitively when I was a kid,
| apart from rackets you will also care about strings, you will
| eat through them. The best strings aren't very durable and on
| top you will be often trialing different strings with your
| racket until finding a sweet spot for your play style.
|
| It adds up fast.
| snapetom wrote:
| It would have been interesting to discuss the giant leaps of
| racket materials though. Wood to steel/aluminum in the 70's,
| and then graphite in the 80s. That would have been a more
| appropriate discussion. It would be interesting to see their
| third point, about patents, and how big of a barrier that was
| for tennis racket technology advancement and adoption.
|
| I'd imagine this Vaporfly issue wouldn't be such a big deal if
| competitors were easily able to create similar shoes.
| geoka9 wrote:
| Once racket tech settled on graphite, there's not much
| advancement to speak of, regardless of what racket vendors
| might tell us.
|
| String tech, on the other hand, has continued to innovate in
| leaps and bounds, all but killing the serve-and-volley style
| of tennis at the elite level.
| geoka9 wrote:
| Yes, comparison with tennis struck me as a bit weird too:
|
| > If we did not believe that skill execution should be
| "constrained" by tennis rackets, we'd have no limits on head
| size.
|
| There are oversized-head (tweener) rackets out there, but they
| are almost never used by advanced players (because you you have
| very limited control with an oversized head).
| darkwizard42 wrote:
| While it is sad to see that equipment is becoming a concern in
| high level running, I found it most disastrous when thinking
| about the effect of "equipment" in swimming.
|
| Some of the suits that Phelps and folks wore were just so
| stupidly cutting edge in terms of their effects on stroke
| efficiency. I think the world swimming organizations have done a
| better job of regulating here, but again it sounds like ALL
| sports are required to have their governing bodies playing a bit
| of cat and mouse to keep the playing field as even as possible.
| jonshariat wrote:
| I don't understand why more sports don't just have regulation
| equipment that all athletes must wear and use.
|
| You aren't allowed to bring your own soccer ball, basketball,
| football, etc. Why do we allow some items that have a huge
| impact, to be up to the player/team?
| fredley wrote:
| Have it both ways, like motorsport. There are championships
| like Formula 1, where the 'equipment' is a huge factor, and
| the teams are competing on their tech. This has lead to many
| breakthroughs in car safety that have become standard in
| consumer vehicles.
|
| On the other hand, there are many championships where all
| drivers must drive the exact same car, or the cars are
| heavily regulated in terms of power output. Here it's all
| about the raw skill of the driver.
|
| There is room for both of these in running.
| philippoi wrote:
| Let's not forget Deflategate. Wherever the balls come from,
| sometimes they're tamperable.
| jfengel wrote:
| I can't imagine having an ISO standard running shoe. There
| are regulations on running shoes (like the thickness of the
| sole), but making them all identical would really hurt a lot
| of athletes. It would select for those who fit the standard
| shoe.
|
| Until recently, swimming advances didn't matter all that
| much. It's only in the last decade or so that the fabrics
| became better than the swimmer's skin, and they started
| covering up more of the body. That gave substantial
| advantages to swimmers with a ton of money.
|
| (Substantial being relative, of course. We're talking 1%
| improvements, so you're not taking on Michael Phelps in one
| of these, even if he were wearing a ball gown. But it's the
| difference between gold and not qualifying for the final
| heat.)
| wetmore wrote:
| I agree, although I also think once you start considering all
| the different factors that go into an athlete's performance
| and how there is an inequity between competitors for each
| factor, it can be hard to determine where to draw the line.
|
| For example, athletes from wealthy countries are exposed to
| better training techniques and apparatus. Is that fair?
| gameswithgo wrote:
| the equipment is sometimes part of the fun too, you crush
| whole industries if you spec it
| ashtonbaker wrote:
| Which is sort of the point of not standardizing things. In
| cycling for example, if everyone rides the same bike, then
| bike companies have nothing to advertise, so no money for
| cycling teams. So the whole thing is really an
| advertisement. The one exception I can think of in cycling
| is Japanese Keirin track racing, which has heavy regulation
| on the equipment used, but supports and is supported not by
| advertising, but by sports betting.
| thebigman433 wrote:
| How exactly do you do that for running? You obviously cant
| have just 1 specific shoe that everyone has to wear, so how
| many do you allow, and how do you stop it from getting back
| to the current form?
| Someone wrote:
| For shoes, I would think there's just too much variation in
| foot sizes, foot shapes, and runner's weights to even
| consider that.
|
| Cycling similarly allows picking the bicycle frame to match
| the rider's body. It does have a minimum weight for bicycles,
| though (6.8kg, which is high for current tech. Given deep
| enough pockets, 2.7kg was possible in 2010. See https://www.t
| ririg.com/articles.php?id=1035_Worlds_Lightest_...), and
| regulations that effectively forbid recumbent bikes.
|
| In some cases, flexibility also is there for historical
| reasons. In soccer, not even field size is fixed (with
| exceptions for top levels) for that reason (fields inside
| athletics tracks tend to be longer and less wide than fields
| inside stadiums specifically built for soccer)
|
| A soccer field must be rectangular, but can be anywhere from
| 45 to 90 meters wide and anywhere from 90 to 120 meters long
| (https://resources.fifa.com/image/upload/spielregeln-2019-20.
| ...)
|
| So, minimum size is 90m x 45m, maximum size is 120m x 90m.
| Area-wise, that's a factor of 2 2/3 .
| quandrum wrote:
| NFL teams provide their own footballs.
|
| Source: https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/pre-game/nfl-game-
| ball-pr...
| taeric wrote:
| But shoes? Gloves? Glare reducing eye makeup? Socks?
| Hydration drinks?
|
| The list can basically go on forever. With no real "a
| priori" idea on where you have to stop to no longer find a
| benefit in equipment. Could even go back to "access to gym"
| or "access to trainer" and expect a level of influence.
| slg wrote:
| I think "provide their own footballs" can be a little
| misleading. It isn't like they can go out and purchase
| whatever brand and model they want. Teams have custody of
| the league approved balls and can prepare them how they see
| fit within the league specification. So while there is room
| for a little customization, it fits well within
| jonshariat's overall point of standardized equipment.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| This has been proposed in Nordic skiing to reduce the arms
| race around waxing. Standardize waxing, competitors receive
| skies immediately before race, etc.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| Why is this a disaster? genuinely asking.
|
| This has always been the case in sports. I personally don't
| agree with setting some arbitrary limit on technology creating
| systems like Formula 1, which then becomes a race against
| regulations and who can most creatively push the rules & find
| workarounds.
|
| The sport I know best is climbing, and the progression of gear
| over the past 50 years has enabled as you say STUPID HUGE gains
| in allowing the strongest athletes to push the envelope of
| what's possible. I can't imagine having to climb with old gear
| and shoes. Went from climbing in Converses with DIY pro to
| specialized rubber on shoes with similar ideas to Vaporfly in
| how they shape the foot and have flex or not based on the route
| need. We now wear different shoes for different styles of
| routes.
|
| Now knee pads are becoming standard which has downgraded some
| famous routes and upped the highest end grades. Some climbers
| just log 'without' 'with' grades I guess you could do that with
| running, but no one is saying Adam Ondra didn't climb the
| hardest route in the world because he used a knee pad and
| similarly I don't think it's fair to take away Phelp's
| achievements.
|
| Even going beyond 'solo' nature of climbing, the technology is
| the same in competitions. Gear pushes the sport and I think
| that's a good thing.
| ars wrote:
| Because taken to the extreme it's eventually not "you"
| competing, it's your equipment.
|
| Imagine some kind of glove that grips for you, or shoes with
| glue on the bottom. Or... there's no real limit here. Might
| as well just wear a hover belt and float to the top :)
|
| At some point you have to say "this is enough tech". So the
| question is, what is that point?
| dillondoyle wrote:
| To me that argument is a 'slippery slope' fallacy. We're
| not even close to that extreme. It's like saying let's get
| rid of mail in voting because there might be vast (non
| existent) fraud in the future.
|
| And even if we go that far somehow I think the
| differentiation will come naturally. In climbing there is a
| totally separate thing called Aid Climbing where it's kind
| of like you say floating to the top haha. Pulling on
| ladders or whatever to completely eliminate strength and
| effort. It's not treated as remotely the same sport as free
| climbing.
| blendo wrote:
| "It undermines one of the sport's most valuable qualities, namely
| that the outcome, the title, the victory, ..."
|
| This seems less about the integrity of running, and more about
| the integrity of winning.
| kleinsch wrote:
| I agree with many points in the article, but the idea that it's
| unfair if one person's body responds better to the shoe than
| another seems silly. Distance running is already a competition of
| who has better gene adaptations. I have a mediocre VO2 max, so
| I'll never be an Olympian. Is that unfair? My body requires a
| longer recovery time after hard efforts than Galen Rupp. Is that
| unfair? That's just life.
| racuna wrote:
| Agree, I was in denial for years trying to "correct" my flat
| feet with minimal shoes (plus focusing in my running
| technique), arc strengthening exercises, stretches, and so on.
| But I never was able to run past 3k without knees pain.
|
| Then I bought cheap insoles with arc support and the next run I
| was able to run 6k without any issue.
|
| I'll never will be an elite runner. But at least I can go
| outside and enjoy a good sweat in the park time to time.
| bo1024 wrote:
| I think it's trying to draw a difference between how good your
| body actually is at the activity of running itself, versus how
| well it responds to a particular technology. Sort of like if
| they legalized one particular performance enhancing drug. The
| records would be set by people who happened to respond well to
| that drug (let's say).
| bagacrap wrote:
| to carry that to its logical conclusion, all competition
| should be held barefoot. Surely some humans are better suited
| to barefoot running than others, hence their "response" to
| shoe wearing is being tested.
| burnished wrote:
| From the article
|
| "And while on this subject of breakthroughs and records,
| please let's not say stupid things like "We should just run
| barefoot", or the common gaslighting method used by many
| that innovation has always been part of the sport, and the
| 2016 shoes were way better than Jim Peters and Roger
| Bannister's shoes in the 1950s. Yes, but if you're daft
| enough to actually entertain the debate about whether
| Kipchoge is a better runner than Jim Peters, great, but
| find someone equally daft who'll have that one. I'd need
| ten beers for it to even seem worthwhile. Nobody cares. We
| get it, we expect innovation over many generations."
| burnished wrote:
| They mention this specifically in two ways. 1) we expect a race
| to be about human elements. You won't be an Olympian because of
| physiology, not equipment. This ties back into integrity. 2)
| the response from the shoe is greater than the typical
| difference between athletes, meaning that at top tier levels
| your fitness is now defined by a running shoe.
|
| Is that unfair? Hard to say. Does it undermine what people
| appreciate about running and the competition? I think the
| author made a pretty strong case for 'yes, absolutely'.
| PeterisP wrote:
| The patent angle in one of the OPs argument struck me as very
| important - I wouldn't automatically disqualify a need to
| purchase some a legal monopoly of a particular sports-relevant
| aspect, where some competitors are prohibited to have it at the
| whim of a third party (e.g. the author suggested, perhaps
| hypothetical, example of a shoe 'sold to public' by putting 50
| pairs in a Tokyo store once and never again) does not seem fair
| play.
|
| Can we make a simple blanket policy that patent-protected gear of
| any kind are automatically prohibited in races? I mean, if
| there's no performance impact, then it shouldn't be a problem for
| athletes to use some other, patent-free gear, and if there is a
| performance impact, it shouldn't get used. Perhaps this could
| also negate the core issue of this article, as the impact on
| sports is arguably caused by the desire to sell such tech to mass
| market; but if the high-tech shoes can be sold to mass market
| _only_ without an impact on competitions, then Nike can put in
| their shoes whatever shiny gadgets they want.
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I think this is a good idea. It reminds me of the "sharkskin"
| suits used in swimming that were expensive, single use, very
| effective and allowed enormous improvements in performance.
| Then had to be banned.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-technology_swimwear_fabri...
| wging wrote:
| Mentioned in the article, FWIW:
|
| > Swimming? Who can forget what happened between 2008 and
| 2009...
| bagacrap wrote:
| The sport (at the elite, televised level) is not just impacted
| by the desire to sell shoes, its only reason for existence is
| as a vehicle to sell shoes. Every professional runner has a
| salary paid by a shoe company.
| npilk wrote:
| Not to disagree with the broader point about the integrity of
| world records, but I thought this perspective was interesting:
|
| > _I don't want a five-set final at the Australian Open thinking
| "Shit, I wonder if this result would be different if Thiem and
| Djokovic could swap tennis rackets? If only my guy had a
| different sponsor"._
|
| A similar dynamic already exists in many team sports, where the
| elites can sign all the stars and smaller teams have to try and
| win with better drafting, coaching, player development, etc. And
| in these cases, fans often seem to love watching a less-
| privileged team overcome those challenges to win (see Leicester
| City or small college basketball teams like Oral Roberts as
| examples.)
| amelius wrote:
| Why don't they just give all players the same official rackets
| before the match? Problem solved :)
| philippoi wrote:
| That's why some team sports have imposed salary cap limits.
| browningstreet wrote:
| Your example is better than the article's, as Thiem's earnings
| put his net worth at $30M, and Djokovic's at $220M.
|
| That said, against the cost of racquets, each can buy -- or get
| from sponsors -- whatever racquets they want.
| thereisnospork wrote:
| It is also worth noting that elite athletes aren't
| necessarily beholden to using their sponsor's equipment. It
| is easy enough to doll up e.g. a Head racket to look like a
| Wilson.
| piyh wrote:
| Flashback to Gal Gadot tweeting with an iPhone while having
| an Android sponsorship.
| AtlasBarfed wrote:
| Don't forget: This is amateur league play compared to designer
| genetics, or when actually practical crispr edit-in-place gene
| therapy hits mainstream.
|
| And basically PEDs is a lost cause, all they try to do now is
| contain it from frankenstein levels.
| frereubu wrote:
| Semi-seriously, I quite like the idea of going back to the
| original ancient Greek way of doing competitive sport naked. That
| would take care of quite a lot of the issues surrounding running
| shoes, swmming suits, and so on.
| slim wrote:
| some sports still need equipement that need to be regulated :
| javelot, tennis, etc..
| cafard wrote:
| The comic strip Tank McNamara long ago had a Sunday strip that
| showed the eponymous ex-jock sportscaster stopping into a
| running-goods store. The weedy sales guy starts piling him up
| with road shoes, off-roads shoes, racing shoes, warmups, etc.,
| etc. As Tank stands baffled at the cash register, his girl
| friend says "And to think the ancient Greeks did it naked."
|
| I think it was _Running_ magazine that did not find his
| amusing.
| dillondoyle wrote:
| Haha ouch. My sport is climbing. I have a home wall and I've
| tried this. It does not work well for modern climbing on lots
| of textured volumes ;)
|
| Would definitely make world cups more interesting to watch!!
| francisofascii wrote:
| A series of barefoot running events sounds viable.
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