[HN Gopher] My apartment was built on toxic waste
___________________________________________________________________
My apartment was built on toxic waste
Author : czechdeveloper
Score : 420 points
Date : 2021-04-04 12:38 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sfbayview.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (sfbayview.com)
| ystad wrote:
| The need for more housing is causing people to cut corners. This
| seems like the making for a class action lawsuit
| m0llusk wrote:
| Kind of interesting how similar this is to other serious problems
| with vinyl chloride in Silicon Valley. Also kind of interesting
| that so many sofa based contamination engineers here didn't
| bother to investigate any of that. HN has a really serious
| problem with people who have a weak grasp of complex subjects
| carrying on like what they say relates to anything.
| freetime2 wrote:
| Can you provide a link with more info about the similar vinyl
| chloride issues?
| mint2 wrote:
| Most people here seem concerned about vocs. Plastics, carpets,
| sofas, paints, air fresheners and a ton of other typical
| household items produce them.
|
| I feel like the author is really jumping the gun here in
| identifying the source of pollutants by not seeking to consider
| the fact that new apartments are loaded with freshly off-gassing
| materials.
|
| The other thing that should have been mentioned is more about
| their vitals prior to moving in. How confident was she in her
| baseline because it could be a preexisting condition that became
| very exacerbated.
|
| Edit: But that said, my opinion of the Irvine company is
| extremely low. I'd not be the least bit surprised if they
| willfully cut every corner they could. Either with remediation or
| materials in the apartment. And pollutants do pool overnight but
| near freeways they are typically the worst in the dawn hours.
| There would be less air exchange in the apartment, leading to a
| buildup from an external or internal source.
| EGreg wrote:
| There needs to be a "ZAGAT's" for toxicity (in commercial and
| residential real estate). So at least there can be something
| owned and managed by the public, and not having to rely on these
| agencies, many of whom need to balance "economic freedom /
| business friendliness" with the facts.
|
| Such a site would need to be either hosted offshore, or have deep
| pockets to protect against defamation lawsuits and other
| litigation. It would also need to have a great process for
| removing false positives and false negatives. What process would
| that be, though? It would have to involve actual testing by
| trusted agencies, I think.
| elliekelly wrote:
| I do a bit of side work as an environmental law journalist
| primarily covering Superfund cases. A lot of this data is
| publicly available from the EPA, especially with respect to
| Superfund sites. Unfortunately the data is not available in an
| easily digestible form. It's tucked away in long-winded PDF
| reports that are unique to each site so the data collected and
| the way it's presented isn't uniform. But I do think the data
| is, for the most part, robust, reliable, and available if
| someone made the effort to devise a way to scrape and parse it.
| bjacobt wrote:
| That sounds like a good project! I looked at the documents
| for a site and see what you mean.
|
| I can contribute if you or someone can help navigate the
| documents.
| rbanffy wrote:
| > these agencies, many of whom need to balance "economic
| freedom / business friendliness" with the facts.
|
| These agencies should not be concerned with anything other than
| facts and any attempt to interfere with them (as in balancing
| business friendliness with facts) should be considered a
| serious crime against the safety of the population.
| EGreg wrote:
| Come on, these agencies balance things all the time. They
| have political interest.
|
| All of these actions can be considered crimes against the
| safety of populations.
|
| Just from this year:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/chinese-
| of...
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/06/08/8724198.
| ..
|
| https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/03/europe/europe-russia-
| vaccines...
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/55800921
|
| https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-52088167
|
| They can't be trusted to just stick to the facts.
| rbanffy wrote:
| That's why we need to make laws that forbid
| misrepresentation of facts in public functions.
| [deleted]
| almost_usual wrote:
| Living near the Bay is a risk. Landfill sites, chemicals,
| radioactivity, earthquake shaking intensity, liquefaction, and
| tsunami risk.
|
| Any Bay Area native will tell you living near the Bay is a bad
| idea. Unfortunately this is where the poor typically live.
| dbsmith83 wrote:
| I myself bought an air quality monitor, and am happy I did
| (uHoo). I have several gas appliances and was concerned about NOx
| and other possible gases. It turns out everything is about
| normal, except that CO2 levels in the basement tend to get
| elevated. I had no idea that this was something that happened. I
| now make sure to try and air it out down there once in a bit and
| take breaks more often, since that is where my office is set up.
| c0nsumer wrote:
| I bought a CO2 meter for work, with the intention of taking it
| into (small) conference rooms once in a while to see what
| happened to the CO2 there.
|
| What I found surprised but pleased me: The CO2 levels at my
| desk are quite low, spike at night when HVAC is off (when the
| building is empty), but generally during daytime are about the
| same as being at home with windows open in a suburban area.
|
| Granted, it's been more than a year since I've sat at my
| desk... But still, it was nice to know.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| How reliable are those devices? Last I looked only the
| professional ones ($150+) could guarantee independently
| verified results. Consumer stuff often depended upon
| calibration and might vary wildly even between two different
| devices by the same manufacturer.
| dbsmith83 wrote:
| The one I have is from https://getuhoo.com/home and was
| around $300. For CO2, it looks like resolution is 1 ppm with
| a tolerance of +-50 ppm or +-3% of reading (higher of the
| two).
|
| I can't speak to how well it is calibrated since you would
| need other devices to compare with.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| "Sick building syndrome" is a difficult topic to discuss because
| it's very difficult to prove a connection between the vague
| symptoms and the building. In many cases, only a single person
| seems susceptible to the claimed building issues. In this case,
| the apartment complex appears to have over 1,800 units, which
| makes it surprising that only a single person is experiencing
| such dramatic effects.
|
| Unfortunately, doubting these people's stories is taboo online so
| I'm going to tread carefully. However, when only 1 unit out of
| 1800 apartments (presumably 2000-3000 total residents considering
| multi-bedroom units) is experiencing severe and dramatic
| symptoms, my first guess would not be the soil under the
| foundation. I would be looking for building materials or chemical
| spills in that specific apartment unit.
|
| Also, I'm not suggesting that we discount this person's story.
| Their symptoms are certainly very _real_ in that they are
| suffering, but the selfie of the person wearing medical equipment
| in front of a mirror combined with measurements from consumer
| devices as evidence should be approached with caution. There is a
| relatively new phenomenon casually known as Munchausen by
| Internet where some patients are drawn to the increasing
| attention they can garner by sharing, and unfortunately
| exaggerating, their stories on the internet. These patients often
| post selfies of themselves wearing medical equipment, in doctor's
| offices, or in hospital beds. More commonly, typical patients
| prefer not to be photographed with medical equipment or in
| medical facilities. Again, I'm not suggesting we disbelieve this
| person, but it's important that we consider the bigger picture
| (1800 unit apartment complex, apparently only one case of severe
| symptoms?) before accepting a single person's analysis of what is
| causing her issues.
|
| Mistaken "sick building syndrome" diagnoses can actually be very
| detrimental to patients who mistake other illnesses as being
| caused by their buildings, as they hyperfocus on their presumed
| explanation to the exclusion of following more typical diagnostic
| work ups that would help them eliminate more common explanations
| for those symptoms.
| cdubzzz wrote:
| > In this case, the apartment complex appears to have over
| 1,800 units, which makes it surprising that only a single
| person is experiencing such dramatic effects.
|
| I don't disagree with what you are saying overall but you
| reference this "1 out of 1,800" point at least three times in
| your comment. It's important to keep in mind that it's not
| necessarily relevant as any number of people in those 1,800
| units may or may not be experiencing a variety of issues
| related to this.
| ryanobjc wrote:
| Also the gp has no proof or basis for this statement other
| than: a) they read a story about 1 persons experience b) the
| site has 1800 units
|
| The gp has to prove a counter factual now: no one else had
| symptoms.
|
| They can't do that. Do you know the history of all the move
| outs of that complex? Do you doubt the owner is highly
| litigious?
|
| In addition, some people are just more sensitive. They act
| like a form of early warning system. Does living there give
| you an increased 10% of lifetime cancer? It would be hard to
| prove.
|
| And a final note: doesn't everyone deserve a safe place to
| live that isn't poisoning them? The sheer amount of naysaying
| in these comments is disappointing and reveals a profound
| lack of understanding of the science and a severely over
| constrained mindset: if it cannot be proven immediately by an
| individual without a budget and no resources, then it cannot
| be true.
| birdyrooster wrote:
| To be fair its nonsense rhetoric to ask someone to prove
| the non-existence of something you aren't able to measure
| (given we can't just barge into people homes and start
| probing them). But there is a likelihood that other people
| who have symptoms will now come forward seeing this, so the
| people of Santa Clara Square still might have more for us.
| I would be surprised it doctors can't detect if the patient
| has been poisoned.
| nathanvanfleet wrote:
| > More commonly, typical patients prefer not to be photographed
| with medical equipment or in medical facilities
|
| So you're saying that real patients don't take selfies with
| equipment on? What an odd thing to say. Like why would that
| somehow prove the validity of her story?
| Can_Not wrote:
| If anything, it seems too common IMO that patients take
| selfies while in hospital beds with IVs or other medical
| paraphernalia.
| caddemon wrote:
| The photo clearly doesn't provide any real evidence for her
| story, but it's also reckless speculation to say that "real
| patients" tend to not take photos with medical equipment.
| People take photos of everything these days. For a more
| extreme example of something you would expect people to not
| photograph - just think about how many people post photos of
| illegal activity on their social media profiles.
| lazide wrote:
| The challenge with a lot of these scenarios is it could be
| real (as in a theoretical normal person would have similar
| or the exact same issues), it could be psychosomatic, it
| could be someone pointing the finger at someone with deep
| pockets for a very real, but actually unrelated issue - not
| out of malice, but even because they believe it's true and
| no one has any evidence to the contrary. It can also be
| someone looking for a payday. Rarer, but it happens.
|
| From her story, she was already under very heavy strain
| before even moving in (full time program manager job which
| isn't something to sneeze at, and taking what sounds like a
| full time legal course at the same time), while moving into
| a new (and presumably expensive) apartment in what could be
| a new area. All this, presumably (based on references to '7
| months' and 'September 2020 when I finally figured out what
| was going on', during a historic pandemic with massive,
| stressful shifts in work and school environments,
| availability of outlets/breakage in coping mechanisms, etc.
|
| Throw in perhaps an unwillingness of a landlord to release
| someone from a lease (as the local high end single
| occupancy rental market has crashed > 40% during this
| time), nasty nasty air pollution for months (the fires
| definitely impacted me and my family on top of COVID
| related impacts during this time - literally months of
| unhealthy air, orange skies, my cousins house burned down
| in the santa cruz mountains and many areas I've loved to
| visit in the past burnt down - it was terrible for mental
| health), everyone in the medical community confused and
| scrambled - almost everyone has been going nuts, in many
| different ways, and the stress has often been incredible.
|
| The whole south bay and peninsula is dotted with superfund
| sites, and she makes numerous references to public interest
| advocacy, so I'm sure she is aware of history the issues in
| the area and with legal training wouldn't lack the tools to
| dig.
|
| If you move to a new place (very stressful) in the middle
| of all this, and get worse - it's also hard to look at
| 'non-negotiable' things like work or school as
| contributing, because, well, you handled them before and
| you can't stop now right?
|
| If you run across something else that could be causing it,
| why not pursue it? Especially if they're a big corp or
| billionaire with deep pockets? Worst case they let you out
| of your overly expensive lease (now that the market
| collapsed) to get you off their back, best case you get a
| decent settlement to compensate you for the damage they
| caused (since you can't find anything else doing it).
|
| One of the big challenges here in the bay area is everyone
| is always trigger happy legally for environmental issues,
| and most of this stuff is almost impossible to DISPROVE.
|
| The science is really not great - we know some chemicals
| cause predictable things like cancers in certain situations
| - but there are a LOT of different chemicals, in a lot of
| different environments/states of weathering, in a lot of
| different types of exposure settings (residential with
| windows open a lot, residential with windows closed a lot,
| ground floor, top floor, near a vent, not near a vent,
| industrial, etc). And that isn't even counting all the
| different glues, adhesives, plastics, etc. in typical new
| construction. You can't run a good double blind study on
| this stuff (too many variables, ethical issues in many
| cases), animal models suck, chemical composition is
| sometimes not well documented or changed random over time,
| you name it.
|
| Ideally we'd all live in untouched pastoral glades far from
| any industry, but that just isn't how the world works.
| People need to live near their jobs for efficiency reasons,
| jobs tend to be concentrated near businesses (or have been
| historically), businesses often make things, making things
| can be a messy and polluting business.
| Schweigi wrote:
| How do you know this was the only person? Others might have
| complaint to the property management company. Besides that, not
| everyone thinks that its their own home who makes them sick and
| they will blame something else. Its possible that a specific
| area hasn't been cleaned properly so only a few apartments will
| be affacted and not all 1800.
|
| The only way to see what going on is by doing another Phase II
| ESA study. But those are expensive and you will need the
| approval of the owner which will be unlikely.
| Schweigi wrote:
| Btw, if you live in CA you can use
| https://www.envirostor.dtsc.ca.gov/public/ and
| https://geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov to search for any known
| environment risk in your area.
| odysseus wrote:
| Are there any of these for other states?
| colechristensen wrote:
| The problem is small effects.
|
| There is poison that kills you and then there's poison that
| makes your life 1% worse. Most people don't notice or can't get
| a deterministic diagnosis, a small number of people are
| disproportionally effected.
|
| This is where we are in many places medically. The big problems
| are easy, the small problems are hard.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Yes. I know I'm personally extremely sensitive to VOC's in a
| way most other people aren't, so I don't doubt her medical
| symptoms at all.
|
| But the fact that it's new construction, and that the readings
| peaked at 3am would lead me to expect it's high-VOC
| construction materials, and the VOC's are accumulating while
| people have their windows closed at night and/or the HVAC
| system circulates less. I also wonder if she by any chance
| purchased a new memory foam mattress and/or pillows when she
| moved -- some people (like me) are horribly affected by the
| VOC's in them, even after many months.
|
| Building on a previous Superfund site could be an entirely
| separate and coincidental issue here.
|
| My experience with VOC's has also taught me, don't stick around
| and try to fight it -- just leave ASAP!! (or toss your mattress
| no matter how much you paid for it). And the fact that her
| doctors never suggested VOC's could be the culprit seems
| astonishingly negligent to me. I'm so sorry she had to endure
| these symptoms for months and months without anyone suggesting,
| hey go stay at a friend's for a few nights and see if it gets
| better.
| bsder wrote:
| > Their symptoms are certainly very real in that they are
| suffering, but the selfie of the person wearing medical
| equipment in front of a mirror combined with measurements from
| consumer devices as evidence should be approached with caution.
|
| In addition, this woman has, at least, a full arm sleeve
| tattoo.
|
| Tattoo inks are _NOT_ FDA certified and the health side effects
| are unstudied and unknown.
|
| Yeah, most people don't have a reaction, but it's highly
| probable that some do and she may simply be one of the unlucky
| ones.
| micropsia wrote:
| Under that theory, why would she feel better after moving out
| of the apartment? An why would her vitals stabilize back to
| normal? (assuming she brought her arm with her)
| georgeam wrote:
| The article mentions that there is a 500 gallon tank of some
| toxic material buried at a unknown location in the property.
| 500 gallons is very small -- 66 cubic feet, which is about 4 ft
| by 4 ft by 4 ft.
|
| In my opinion, that makes it completely plausible that a
| problem relating to that tank could be so localized that it
| will only affect one tenant.
|
| I'm not saying her problem was due to the 500 gallon tank. All
| I'm saying is that if it is, then it is not unbelievable that
| it affected only one (or a small number) of tenants.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| The site she's referring to is almost 100 acres and the
| apartment in question is on the third floor. It's exceedingly
| unlikely that a tank is located precisely in a way to leak
| into a single 3rd floor apartment.
|
| > The Santa Clara Square project encompasses approximately 93
| acres
|
| The challenge with these stories is that they rely on vague
| details to create an appearance of plausibility. The fact
| that a tank containing some substance exists somewhere in a
| 93-acre property would not normally be credible cause to
| believe that someone's symptoms in a 3rd story apartment are
| the result of the soil.
|
| Again, to emphasize: I am not doubting that this person is
| suffering real symptoms. I think it's a mistake to focus on
| the soil or mysterious tanks in unknown location as the cause
| to the exclusion of other possible causes.
| dehrmann wrote:
| > a single 3rd floor apartment
|
| I haven't seen this particular complex, but a lot of new
| apartment construction in the area has a basement parking
| garage. You'd think it would have enough ventilation and
| have enough natural circulation that this would be even
| more unlikely. Unless they shut of the fan because no one
| was leaving during covid.
| nitrogen wrote:
| I lived in an apartment two floors above a pool and
| barbecue area for a year. I regularly had _severe_ air
| quality issues that did not affect the floors below me. I
| could watch the smoke from the barbecue grills rise up to
| my level, then travel horizontally across and into my
| poorly sealed windows due to persistent local air
| currents.
|
| I moved to another apartment building for the two years
| after that, and continued to have measurable AQ issues
| because the dryer, bathroom, and kitchen vents were
| flowing in reverse due to a poor building ventilation
| design that used a single central vent shaft and didn't
| adequately account for wind or the height of the
| building. I was on a side and floor of the building that
| had negative relative pressure much of the time.
|
| Air isn't a perfectly homogenized uniform fluid -- there
| are very localized effects, and because it's often
| invisible, those local effects are often dismissed.
|
| IMO the only sane and responsible way to develop
| apartments in a challenging environment (by a highway, by
| a fire or bbq environment, in an area where weed is
| legal, or on a toxic site) is for every single unit to
| have its own air handling system to maintain air quality
| and positive pressure in that individual unit.
| ljhsiung wrote:
| Also worth noting is that several large tech companies are on
| <100 feet away from her apartment, literally across the street.
|
| AMD, Hitachi, Applied Materials
|
| Again, not doubting her story. I very much think her problem
| needs to be addressed. But, it's not _just_ an "evil rental
| company" problem, these huge tech companies directly across the
| street from this waste had to have known about this too.
| entangledqubit wrote:
| In many cases they do but neglect to adequately inform
| employees that may be potentially be affected. At the Google
| Quad campus in Mountain View there was an incident where some
| ventilation fans were accidentally turned off which caused
| employees to be exposed to TCE (affects embryo development so
| mainly concerning to pregnant employees) that is leeching up
| from the ground. I'm pretty sure that 99% of the people would
| not have been able to tell you it was a risk in working
| there.
|
| Also in the area is the "MEW plume". When I asked realtors
| about it while looking for real estate in the area they all
| claimed to know nothing about it - despite being locals and
| there being land development rules requiring that top soil be
| carted away to be treated.
|
| So many people/orgs are tacitly working together to ignore
| the problem since no one wants to be inconvenienced or left
| holding the bag.
| sroussey wrote:
| Yeah, I'd question the previous person living in that apartment
| and try and find out if they were cooking meth or something.
| ohazi wrote:
| It's a new development.
| treis wrote:
| To add to this she says she's in apartment 349 which is on the
| third floor. Very hard to imagine off gassing from the ground
| creates hazardous conditions three floors up.
|
| Not to be indelicate, but the thing that reliably spikes my air
| monitor is passing gas. Would match up with the nausea and
| other symptoms. Not to mention the "earthquake" hallucination
|
| That said, it's hard to argue with the measured heart rate. A
| 10 bpm drop then rise correlated with moving into and out of
| the apartment is pretty strong evidence of something. It just
| seems very unlikely it's from ground contamination.
| sgath92 wrote:
| > she's in apartment 349 which is on the third floor. Very
| hard to imagine off gassing from the ground creates hazardous
| conditions three floors up.
|
| I don't know enough about VOCs in this context, however, I do
| know radon problems fairly well and with radon gases released
| by radioactive decay underground find their way into peoples'
| basements.
|
| From there, they don't stay in basements. If they did, the
| risk to humans would be more mild. Instead, the radon gases
| migrate upward in the building towards the attic exposing
| everyone in the living quarters along the way.
|
| Attic design is critical to how the radon flows in a house.
| You could actually increase the amount of radon that flows
| into a house by having too much attic ventilation along the
| roof peak. The ideal way to minimize radon involves low-
| roofline ventilation of the attic combined with trying to
| seal the basement floor of cracks/holes/etc.
|
| *If* VOCs travel like radon, it would actually make sense
| that the higher floors will be more affected.
| lazide wrote:
| Psychosomatic issues, while 'in someone's head' cause very
| real physical problems that are quite measurable. Our brain
| and our bodies are tied together in ways that are not
| convenient to think about, frankly.
|
| Just like the placebo effect causes real, very significant
| healing effects, even a subconscious association with a place
| as 'bad' causes real, very significant detrimental effects
| that are externally measurable.
| spider-mario wrote:
| > Just like the placebo effect causes real, very
| significant healing effects
|
| No, not really.
| https://www.painscience.com/articles/placebo-power-hype.php
|
| Edit: gee, apparently I hit a sensitive topic. I did not
| realize that Hacker News was so attached to a belief in
| such a strong placebo effect.
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| I though the "placebo effect" is just regression to the
| mean. I.e. "sick people tend to get better"
| varajelle wrote:
| It isn't. People recover better with a placebo than with
| nothing. There are studies that even show that some
| placebo are better than other based on the price, the
| colour, who prescribed it, ...
| Stupulous wrote:
| Nah, it works the other direction too. People expecting
| side effects from a placebo often get them- though you
| could argue that many side effects are common symptome
| now being associated with the drug. Still, the placebo
| effect beats no treatment per
| https://ebmh.bmj.com/content/5/1/15 or
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12535498/
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| Interesting, it looks like the studies I was thinking of
| are fairly old:
| https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/study-finds-
| place...
| fiddlerwoaroof wrote:
| Actually, the studies you cite seem to be in line with
| this Scientific American article: no objective benefits,
| but some efficacy on subjective benefits and pain
| reduction.
| spider-mario wrote:
| Only in subjective outcomes. There was no objective
| outcome where an effect could be perceived.
| lazide wrote:
| It is quite measurably not, oddly -
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/mental-health/the-power-
| of-th...
|
| Essentially believing you have been given something that
| will make you healthier, can reduce the stress responses,
| pain perception and other issues that may be making the
| problem worse. In some cases it can be enough to allow
| the immune system to get better traction and objectively
| get healthier faster than with no medicine.
|
| Pretty weird eh?
| disgruntledphd2 wrote:
| The wild part is that the body releases internal
| painkillers when they get some fake (or real) ones, and
| that this reaction can be blocked by naloxone, indicating
| that it's a physical response.
| orangeoxidation wrote:
| That doesn't seem to be all of it.
|
| See also https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
| jrgoff wrote:
| No, the mind can have a significant effect on the body.
| For example this webmd article on placebo cites studies
| where what the participant was told about a pill
| (stimulant vs sleep aid) effected heart rate, blood
| pressure and reaction time in opposite directions.
| https://www.webmd.com/pain-management/what-is-the-
| placebo-ef...
| macspoofing wrote:
| >A 10 bpm drop then rise correlated with moving into and out
| of the apartment is pretty strong evidence of something.
|
| Sure. 'Something'.
|
| The kind of account this person provided is reminiscent of
| personal testimonials of individuals who live close to
| cellular towers. And so far, it is only her account. How do
| you know she's a credible, objective observer? How do you
| know she isn't experiencing psychosomatic symptoms? And now
| she's fixating on 500 gallons of something or other because
| of some passing reference in a report...Maybe there is
| something buried in there, so what? Who says that has
| anything to do with anything?
|
| Also, this line struck me: "it's an outbreak of new housing
| developments on toxic land and water with laissez-faire
| oversight". San Francisco and 'laissez-faire' don't really go
| together. You know, the city that will deny development
| license if the proposed building will cast an overly large
| shadow over a playground. Come on.
|
| Is there something here? Who the heck knows, anything is
| possible. The fact that so many just want to take her word
| for it without an ounce of skepticism is a little
| disappointing.
| sologoub wrote:
| > San Francisco and 'laissez-faire' don't really go
| together.
|
| And they totally didn't authorize a residential high rise
| building with foundation on sand that started to lean... oh
| wait https://www.sfgate.com/news/editorspicks/article/SF-s-
| sinkin...
| kortilla wrote:
| The sand was well-known and it had a foundation that was
| supposed to handle it. So that's a poor example of
| regulation overlooking something.
| macspoofing wrote:
| Are you trying to argue that San Francisco is a laissez-
| faire developer utopia?
| spider-mario wrote:
| > How do you know she isn't experiencing psychosomatic
| symptoms?
|
| Is there evidence that psychosomatic effects can be so
| strong as to account for a measurable 10% drop in resting
| heart rate? Especially since her symptoms appeared before
| she even started measuring air quality.
| krooj wrote:
| Dude - absolutely. Your brain is a powerful and weird
| thing, and simply thinking of a thing can influence your
| autonomic nervous system, changing breathing patterns,
| heart rate, blood pressure, etc. Ask anyone that has
| general anxiety or a panic disorder.
| spider-mario wrote:
| Anxiety and panic tend to cause an increase in heart
| rate, though, not a drop. The symptoms also started
| before she had any suspicion about what could be the
| problem.
| micropsia wrote:
| Yeah, anxiety increases heart rate not lowers it. Her
| heart rate while living there looked to be around 50bpm
| in the charts, which is apparently "low" -- not just for
| her personally, but medically low.
|
| High heart rate:
| https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/175241#causes
| (anxiety)
|
| Low heart rate: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/is-a-
| slow-heart-rate-good... (nothing psychological)
| brianwawok wrote:
| As a runner, when I'm in marathon training mode, my rest
| heart rate is very close to 40. Pro or very serious
| athletes can have a resting heart rate near 30. It's
| actually a great way to tell your current fitness level
| (if you know your own baselines)
|
| You would need to know a lot more before you worry about
| 50 being low.
|
| And yes, I had to get an EKG and the doctor raised his
| eye brow at my heart rate, but I said I run and he
| immediately Moved on.
| wruza wrote:
| They can manifest in different ways, but tend to increase
| X, yes.
|
| _started before she had any suspicion about what could
| be the problem_
|
| That is so common. As someone who has regular panic
| attacks, it takes months to admit that there is something
| wrong with you, that it's not a form of covid, no you're
| not dying, you can breathe even without concentrating,
| your appendix had already been cut out, and the only
| thing you need is a psychiatrist. Being smart and able to
| analyze some random numbers and events only adds to the
| problem, because you sound reasonable for much longer
| time. For your entire life you believe that you are a
| perfect error-free mechanism that cannot be wrong. Of
| course it takes time to realize that it's not true (and
| never was, really).
| spider-mario wrote:
| Sorry, I don't understand your point. Mine was simply
| that a belief in toxic air could not have caused the
| symptoms to appear since she didn't have that belief yet.
| macspoofing wrote:
| >Is there evidence that psychosomatic effects can be so
| strong as to account for a measurable 10% drop in resting
| heart rate?
|
| I have no clue. Maybe. Maybe not.
|
| What doesn't pass the smell test for me is that the
| author fixated on what she thinks is the cause of her
| symptoms for non-rational, arbitrary reasons. She decided
| her symptoms MUST be the result of her building being
| built on reclaimed land. Why? Well, she got a consumer
| sensor that shows her something and therefore that must
| be it. Maybe whatever that VOC sensor is showing has
| NOTHING to do with anything she has.
|
| It's reminiscent of conspiracy theory thinking, where the
| conspiracy theorist encounters some unknown phenomena and
| instead of saying "I don't know", they decide on a
| solution (whether that be aliens, or illuminati or living
| on reclaimed land) and they cherry pick and interpret
| evidence in a way that supports their ad hoc conclusion.
| micropsia wrote:
| How do you figure? She apparently had a lot of medical
| testing that showed something was wrong with her
| physically but the doctors had no idea what. Sounds like
| this was long before she knew anything was off with the
| property.
|
| The article didn't make any concrete accusations and she
| was just asking for an investigation. She didn't say
| causation, she said correlation. "I began to think that
| there was an important correlation between this data and
| my symptoms." Even when she saw high VOCs, she didn't
| assume it was the remediation site. " I knew the
| situation was likely going to be complicated and that the
| tVOC readings on my personal monitors were not going to
| be conclusive on their own, but my gut told me something
| was terribly wrong." She was open to the site not being
| the cause. "I was thinking: If you don't want me to be
| worried about this chemical's impact to my health, you
| should tell me exactly why it wasn't included in the
| clean-up despite being above residential limits." + "So,
| what made me sick? While in the end everyone agreed it
| was VOCs, I may never know for certain if it was the
| chemicals in the soil or groundwater and, if so, which
| ones."
|
| Also, she mentioned a few times that doctors, government,
| and even Irvine Company's public relations person
| admitted VOCs made her sick, but just didn't know where
| the VOCs came from.
|
| None of that sounds like a conspiracy theory.
| spider-mario wrote:
| Her quasi-experiment [1], which resembles an interrupted
| time series design [2, 3], does tend to support a causal
| implication of "living in that apartment". There seems to
| be something about living in that apartment that is
| causing those symptoms. From there, hypothesizing that it
| could be the air contents doesn't seem like that much of
| a stretch to me.
|
| [1] https://sfbayview.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2021/03/Ashley-Gjov...
|
| [2] https://doi.org/10.1136/bmj.h2750
|
| [3] https://opentextbc.ca/researchmethods/chapter/quasi-
| experime...
| GavinMcG wrote:
| 1) It's not in San Francisco.
|
| 2) The development was explicitly expedited with permission
| of the city.
|
| 3) She actually collected data on both tVOCs and her
| physical symptoms.
|
| There's absolutely room for skepticism, but dismissing it
| out of hand by equating it to cell-tower crazies is
| ridiculous.
| macspoofing wrote:
| >There's absolutely room for skepticism
|
| I'll bite. How would that look like in your opinion? In
| other words, to which part of her story would you apply
| this skepticism?
|
| >The development was explicitly expedited with permission
| of the city.
|
| What does that have to do with anything?!!? This is a
| complete non-sequitur? You're throwing everything against
| the wall to see what sticks.
|
| >but dismissing it out of hand by equating it to cell-
| tower crazies is ridiculous
|
| Why? People who believe they are harmed by cellular
| towers present very real symptoms. They are sincere. How
| do you you know her symptoms aren't psychosomatic?
| [deleted]
| GavinMcG wrote:
| It has to do with your comment that the city would "deny
| development license if the proposed building will cast an
| overly large shadow over a playground." That's clearly
| not the case, here: they _expedited_ development, rather
| than denying it.
|
| I said there's room for skepticism because we don't know
| that it's not psychosomatic. But: she gathered
| environmental data, and reports completed _prior to her
| moving there_ had already concluded that "VOCs were
| above residential limits and, in some cases, even above
| vapor intrusion risk levels." The developer had made
| plans for advanced vapor mitigation. One of the reasons
| the area was a Superfund site in the first place was due
| to VOCs. In other words, there are a number of external
| reasons to think this is plausible.
| macspoofing wrote:
| > said there's room for skepticism because we don't know
| that it's not psychosomatic.
|
| Actually. We don't know anything. Or rather, we only know
| what she chose to present, already colored to match her
| conclusion.
|
| How do you know some pertinent information isn't missing
| from her account?
|
| >But: she gathered environmental data, and reports
| completed prior to her moving there had already concluded
| that "VOCs were above residential limits
|
| So what? Let's say VOCs are above residential limits (and
| I'm not sure about that given that untrained people using
| consumer sensors are liable to get a fair share of false
| results or improperly interpreted results) ... BUT OK ...
| how does she (and you) know that this is what is causing
| her symptoms?
|
| > In other words, there are a number of external reasons
| to think this is plausible.
|
| I wouldn't go that far. All we can really say is that she
| is experiencing symptoms. Those symptoms could be a
| result of anything (or nothing). Nothing she says passes
| the smell test because she's engaging in very typical
| conspiracy theory thinking. She decided that the cause of
| her symptoms is living in an apartment built on reclaimed
| land for very flimsy reasons. And then she went around
| cherry picking evidence to support that conclusion.
|
| I mean, she wrote a message to her apartment management
| company that stated: "The chemicals are still pouring out
| full blast" ... are they really? The management company
| sent an inspector to test for chemical and gas leaks ...
| and nothing. She hired her own consultant to perform the
| tests, and that person found nothing... and on and on and
| on.
|
| She sounds EXACTLY like the people who are convinced cell
| towers are poisoning them. Every piece of countervailing
| is ignored by her ... just like a conspiracy theorist.
| She strikes me as someone who spiraled into this rabbit
| hole and got absolutely convinced this one thing (out of
| infinite number of possible things) is causing her
| symptoms.
|
| Needless to say, I'm skeptical.
| micropsia wrote:
| I mean, isn't that why she was asking for them to do
| professional testing?
|
| And if it's a remediation site with VOCs above vapor
| intrusion risk levels, don't you think the government
| should investigate?
|
| Seems like a bigger issue that the remediation was rushed
| through, and no one would respond to complaints that
| there could be issues with that rushed remediation.
|
| Hazardous waste isn't cell towers. We know hazardous
| waste can make people sick, and even kill them --
| depending on the chemical and exposure. She mentions
| concern that vinyl chloride was there above vapor
| intrusion risk levels and no one would tell her why it
| wasn't cleaned up. That sounds nothing like EMF panic.
| macspoofing wrote:
| >isn't that why she was asking for them to do
| professional testing?
|
| If you read her account, there were multiple tests done,
| by her hired expert and one contracted by the building
| management company, not including the testing done by
| Roux. She didn't accept any of the results because they
| didn't match her conclusion.
|
| >Seems like a bigger issue that the remediation was
| rushed through
|
| Rushed through how? This is California where nothing gets
| built in any reasonable time. But again, what does this
| have to do with anything? There is zero evidence that her
| symptoms are caused by the building, or anything related
| to it. The author simply decided it must be the cause.
| Must. And now, for some reason, we're debating this non
| sequitur.
| rrss wrote:
| > She mentions concern that vinyl chloride was there
| above vapor intrusion risk levels and no one would tell
| her why it wasn't cleaned up.
|
| An initial investigation by EIK had 1 sample of 17 that
| had vinyl chloride above screening levels, which raised
| VOC from off-site sources (the nearby superfund site) as
| a potential concern. As a result, Roux took more soil
| vapor samples several years later, and none of their
| measurements had vinyl chloride levels above the
| screening threshold. Maybe this process was rushed or
| shoddy or something (I wouldn't know or be able to
| guess), but from the EIR it sounds like Roux did the
| testing and didn't measure any significant VOCs.
|
| and after this, they put in the system for mitigating
| vapor intrusion anyway.
| azinman2 wrote:
| VOC sensors are a kind of catch all, and consumer brands
| often have sensors that aren't not of the highest
| quality. Somethings are more toxic than others, but you
| won't get any useful breakdown from them. These nighttime
| spikes and variability over the day are consistent with
| my own use of these machines, but I do not suffer
| anything like what she describes.
| fnord77 wrote:
| my VOC sensor goes off the scale when my dishwasher is
| running.
| andreasley wrote:
| Interesting. But it makes sense: Vaporization of
| detergents and other elements in the water.
|
| Some sources: [1]
| https://www.haywardscore.com/articles/is-your-dishwasher-
| imp... [2]
| https://repositories.lib.utexas.edu/handle/2152/826
| amelius wrote:
| They should try entering the building with an oxygen supply,
| see if this triggers the symptoms.
| petertodd wrote:
| Regarding the heart rate increase, there's an official
| diagnosis called "White Coat Syndrome" where your blood
| pressure rises when it's being measured. To rule out actual
| high blood pressure, they have to use things like 24 hour
| automated blood pressure tests.
|
| I'm _very_ aware of the placebo effect, very scientifically
| minded, etc. I have white coat syndrome and have had to do
| quite a few of those 24 hour blood pressure tests over the
| years to make sure I'm not developing the real thing.
|
| https://www.healthline.com/health/white-coat-syndrome
| Sunspark wrote:
| Actually, out-gassing inside a building tends to travel
| upward. It's not unusual for the higher floors to have higher
| levels of gases than the lower levels. For gases to sink,
| they have to be heavier than air. Radon gas for example is
| 7.5 times heavier than air. Carbon monoxide is slightly
| lighter than air which is why detectors for it are better
| placed higher up in a room than on the floor.
| loceng wrote:
| We don't know enough to do a thorough, adequate analysis -
| for example, we don't know what or how the ventilation system
| is setup, where it's pulling air from, etc.
|
| Another thing that came to mind: there is a known effect with
| sound waves - where multiple different sources of sound may
| not be a problem source themselves (e.g. low level rumbling
| fans from large buildings) - but then where those sound waves
| intersect can cause a problem point that impacts biological
| life; it can be a single source of industrial noise
| pollution, multiple cases of whole towns getting sick because
| of it being traced back to the frequencies/vibrations given
| off by large fans - but what if some noises happen to
| triangulate to be a problem in your specific unit? It's not
| impossible.
| treis wrote:
| We're talking about an old farm with slightly above
| threshold levels of pesticides. At least that's what I
| could tell by reading the environmental report. It just
| strains credulity that it could be off-gassing that much.
| GavinMcG wrote:
| FTA:
|
| From 1974-1985, Synertek, Inc., leased the area directly
| uphill from where the Santa Clara Square Apartments
| currently stand. Synertek manufactured semiconductors,
| crucial to the production of microchips for computers and
| other technologies. The manufacturing involved highly
| toxic chemicals, and several tanks stored underground on
| site leaked VOCs into the groundwater, contaminating the
| soil around the area. In 1987, the area was deemed a
| Superfund site by the Environmental Protection Agency. In
| spite of this, or the VOCs known to be on site of the
| SCSA property, the DTSC did not make VOCs a part of their
| remediation plan for the apartments
| jeffbee wrote:
| If you are interested in primary sources, the water board
| site for the Synertek cleanup is at https://geotracker.wa
| terboards.ca.gov/profile_report?global_...
|
| This 2006 site report does not show the pollution
| extending under the apartment site, but who knows.
|
| https://documents.geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov/regulator
| s/d...
| vagrantJin wrote:
| Lets call a spade a spade shall we? This is a forum with self
| professed reasonable people. The reaction could be anything
| from tile cleaner to toilet cleaner or an allergic reaction
| to bread.
| void_mint wrote:
| > This is a forum with self professed reasonable people
|
| In what way is the author being unreasonable? By your own
| post, it could be anything, including exactly what the
| author said, no?
| koboll wrote:
| Or, honestly, simple anxiety. I went through a year of
| severe anxiety where I honestly thought I was suffering
| extreme cardiac and maybe neurological symptoms. It turned
| out to be all psychosomatic. There are so many markers of
| similarity between this article and my experience.
| "Fainting spells, chest pain, numbness" were all part of
| it, and more.
| wruza wrote:
| When my grandmother visits a therapist, they usually try to
| give her medication if not report her to ER because of her
| off-the-scale blood pressure. She then explains that her BP
| is always like this when she visits a therapist, and the only
| thing to do is to leave the office. 10 bpm drop may be
| something or nothing.
| deftnerd wrote:
| I find it interesting that there were spikes of readings at
| certain times of day and night. Coupled with the information
| that the apartments have a VoC barrier, my intuition is that
| there is a timer somewhere that turns on a fan to clear out
| the VoC capture space created by the barrier and exhaust the
| contaminated air to the outside.
|
| If the VoC that's bothering her is heavier than air, it could
| be being blown upwards from the ground level and then
| settling back over the building and falling back down and
| finding its way back into her apartment somehow, like through
| the range hood, dryer exhaust, plumbing stacks, open windows,
| or just cracks due to poor craftsmanship.
|
| If she was still at the site, I would recommend looking for
| what appears to be an exhaust vent of some kind that might be
| tied to the VOC barrier system and putting a sensor there and
| seeing if the readings correlate to the timeline of unusual
| readings in her home
| ericbarrett wrote:
| I had a condo in San Francisco. The building was on an old
| gas station site. The site remediation included a vapor
| barrier placed below the foundation, and a vent pipe from
| the soil to 10 feet (I don't remember the exact height, but
| it was prescripted in the permit) over the roof. Said soil
| vent had a fan that ran nightly exactly as you suggest,
| again prescripted by the permit to continue for at least 10
| years. So I find this quite plausible. Perhaps her
| apartment was next to a similar vent pipe which had a leak.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Gas stations are this big elephant that nobody speaks of.
| Essentially every gas station site has polluted soil that
| makes the site either uninhabitable or uneconomical to
| remediate.
| Varriount wrote:
| Huh, that's really surprising. How does it happen? I
| assume it has something to do with gasoline, but I was
| under the assumption that most of the gasoline at gas
| stations was stored in giant underground concrete
| containers.
| jnwatson wrote:
| I have a memory as a kid (35ish years ago) of watching a
| gas station mechanic pour used motor oil into a oddly dug
| hole in the ground.
|
| I have no idea if that was a common practice.
| smolder wrote:
| There's an old illustration from Popular Mechanics that
| suggests dumping used motor oil into holes in the ground.
| At one time that was considered a reasonable way to
| dispose of it.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Fuel tanks leak. Cars leak. Waste fluids (fuel, oil,
| brake fluid, transmission fluid, coolant, refrigerant)
| leak and are improperly disposed of. Fuel spills when
| being pumped in or out of tanks.
|
| Until 1996, leaded gasoline was generally legal in the
| United States (California phased it out in 1992). It
| _remains_ legal as avgas and possibly for some
| specialised uses. Tetraeythyl lead is a toxic heavy metal
| compound thought to be a factor in the rise in urban
| crime, a phenomenon which traces its use and phase-out
| closely, though lagged about 20 years.
|
| Among the compounds used as an alternative to lead was
| MTBE (Methyl tert-butyl ether), an oxygenate and ground-
| water contaminant, itself banned as a fuel additive in
| 2004 (2002 in California), though again it remains legal
| for other uses.
|
| Petrol (gasoline) itself is often formulated with
| numerous other additives, and "is a mixture of a large
| number of different hydrocarbons", averaging hydrocarbon
| length of about 5-6. ("Naptha", shorter chains make more
| volatile fuels, longer chains heavier, e.g., kerosene,
| diesel fuel, fuel oil, bunker oil. "Octane" is an 8-chain
| compound with lower volatility, increasing the ignition
| point and reducing engine knocking due to premature
| ignition.) Various of the naturally-occuring, added, and
| refining-induced compounds themselves may be harmful or
| toxic, and include VOCs.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTBE_controversy
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gasoline_additives
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Chemical_analysis_
| and...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphtha
| ericbarrett wrote:
| Gas stations used to used single-hulled containers that
| cracked and often leaked petroleum and VOC additives into
| the soil.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Generally the tanks are fiberglass. I don't know why they
| leak. From reading site reports, my impression is these
| leaks are usually detected by the tax authorities, who
| can see that the reported sales of fuel don't add up to
| the reported deliveries of fuel. See page 40 of this
| report for an idea of what an underground fuel tank looks
| like.
|
| https://documents.geotracker.waterboards.ca.gov/esi/uploa
| ds/...
| [deleted]
| quickthrowman wrote:
| > A 10 bpm drop then rise correlated with moving into and out
| of the apartment is pretty strong evidence of something.
|
| Some people experience high blood pressure because of anxiety
| in a clinical setting.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_coat_hypertension
| ubertoop wrote:
| You know what can easily induce a 10+ heart rate increase?
| The perception of danger, aka, FEAR.
|
| An entirely mental process.
| danaliv wrote:
| Ok, but she experienced a _decrease_ while living in this
| building. And doctors said that is consistent with exposure
| to VOCs.
| ubertoop wrote:
| Oh, derp. My mistake... I read the OPs comment as the
| opposite for some reason.
| zby wrote:
| She has some medical problems. She discovered environmental
| problems with the building or whole property. Most probably
| they are not related - but there is this disturbing thing that
| the environmental problems would never be fixed if they cause
| only very low-grade harm.
|
| This is very much https://www.gwern.net/Littlewood
| iJohnDoe wrote:
| The first advice you'll get from most people is to document
| everything.
|
| Her taking a photo wearing medical equipment is extremely
| important. It would be normal to include it in the story. Also,
| people post their lives on social media as part of their
| journey. Being extremely sick would certainly be part of her
| journey.
| balozi wrote:
| _> Her taking a photo wearing medical equipment is extremely
| important_
|
| Why is a photo of her wearing medical equipment extremely
| important? All the photo is documenting is that she wore
| medical equipment for some reason at some point in her life.
| getpost wrote:
| The tattoos in the photo that caught my attention. Aren't
| tattoos a source of toxic exposure?
| https://www.fda.gov/consumers/consumer-updates/think-you-
| ink...
| caddemon wrote:
| Complaining about vague symptoms and then complaining about
| data collected with consumer devices is a little unfair IMO. We
| should be encouraging people with vague symptoms to collect
| more objective data!
|
| There are of course drawbacks with consumer devices compared to
| medical equipment, but there are also a lot of medical issues
| that come and go, possibly with time of day effects or specific
| triggers. Using only a few brief snapshots that come from
| official doctor visits to draw any conclusion is a huge
| drawback of much of modern medicine, and biomedical research is
| slowly trending towards addressing this.
|
| If one is careful in buying high quality consumer devices and
| doing some sanity checks with their data collection process I
| feel it can already be informative. It can be a great screener
| and guide people towards what type of specialist they should
| see.
|
| For some tests there are "take home" medical versions that can
| get a more official (albeit still much briefer than personal
| equipment) dataset. However it can often be difficult to get a
| doctor to order based on vague symptoms, and it is non-ideal
| for patients to go on such a fishing expedition through
| official channels, especially the way medical billing/insurance
| works in the US.
|
| I get there is concern about patients reading into the data too
| much, and yes there will be some people with psychiatric
| problems that could be enabled. But I think the benefits far
| outweigh the costs. In addition to early detection of issues in
| healthy people, it would also have a lot of upside for people
| with inexplicable chronic illness.
|
| Yes people like that are vulnerable and will cling to things,
| but guess what - giving them a shitty label like Fibromyalgia
| only drives them to alternative medicine scams and toxic
| internet forums. It's human nature to look for alternatives
| when something has failed, and so why not at least channel that
| in to something potentially productive? In some cases they
| might even find a real diagnosis, but in general it could lead
| to actual research on these very poorly defined diseases.
|
| I don't know anything about sick building syndrome so can't
| really comment on that, but assuming the person didn't lie that
| would be remarkably coincidental timing with the move in and
| move out dates. Perhaps the toxin they identified is
| irrelevant, but there sure does seem to be something odd going
| on while they lived in that apartment.
|
| They also are clinically fine again now, so even if it was some
| weird psychological thing, moving out of the building fixed the
| problem and therefore the data lead her to the right
| "treatment".
|
| I guess my point is that maybe you're right that this wasn't
| sick building syndrome, and maybe that makes this article a net
| negative, because it could lead others to look for that where
| it isn't. But another takeaway from the article is just the
| more abstract story about investigating your problems so that
| you're more equipped to handle them. There can be non-
| medical/low risk interventions or mitigating strategies, and
| even in this instance it did also drive her towards relevant
| doctors (although it's impossible to say whether she sought out
| legitimate doctors since there is probably a higher ratio of
| quacks specializing in environmental toxins)
| zikzak wrote:
| I live in a neighborhood on the outskirts of the city. We're
| are downwind from a compost facility sometimes. The smell is
| horrible k if you grew up using outhouses, it's the smell after
| a weekend when the extended family visits). Very intense some
| days. However, it is just "a bad smell".
|
| They recently lost thier operating permit and need to relocate
| in a year or so - so this is a real thing and not just the
| collective imagination of a Facebook group of local homeowners.
|
| However, people report crazy symptoms from "the smell".
| Migraines, hives, etc. Not being able to sleep, having to
| rewash clothes because they think the dryer air intake made
| them stink.
|
| I think the vast, vast majority of these symptoms and effects
| are people outraged that their very expensive home has an
| odour, only detectable outside, that they don't like. The
| stress of not getting thier way immediately leads them to these
| other health issues in my opinion. And it takes thier argument
| up a notch (prove they don't have a headache).
|
| Anyway, my opinion is not popular. :)
|
| I don't like the smell either and I'm glad they are moving the
| facility but it was just a bad smell.
| yardie wrote:
| Manure and organic waste excrete hydrogen sulfide while they
| are being digested. The rotten egg smell you speak of is the
| hydrogen sulfide and it is toxic. And one of the major
| symptoms of H2S poisoning is migraines, coughing, shortness
| of breath.
|
| So your neighbors were completely inline with feeling the way
| the do.
|
| BTW, I went to school next to a mushroom farm. A big
| warehouse with giant mounds of manure. And yeah we felt all
| of that too during the warmest times of the school year. The
| school administrator and most parents tried to convince the
| students it was all in their head.
| watwut wrote:
| I don't find the idea that cloth could be smelly from smelly
| air crazy. When you have cloth in smelly air, in fact they do
| smell after. Likewise, migraines does not sound like crazy
| symptoms, whether they are ultimately tied to compost.
| Migraines are something that happen when you don't breath
| well.
| clairity wrote:
| > "The stress of not getting thier way immediately leads them
| to these other health issues in my opinion. And it takes
| thier argument up a notch (prove they don't have a
| headache)."
|
| so kinda like the fervent supporters (most news outlets
| included) of lockdowns, pervasive mask-wearing, and long-
| covid (as if post-infection complications are something new
| and unique)? or the opposite faction defiantly anti-mask and
| anti-vaccine?
|
| people exaggerate and then fall into a hole of argumentative
| sunk cost, where they then view their own reputation being on
| the line, so they double-down rather than back down. in the
| moment, we don't realize that it's actually not that costly
| to concede to exaggeration, that a matter of degree almost
| never bolsters an argument.
|
| the curious part is not that, but that we've yet to solve
| this collecctive dilemma (reason vs. dignity) that's
| seemingly been with us since the dawn of time. in a private
| conversation, it's possible to recognize the dilemma and
| redirect the conversation to a more productive line of
| reasoning by just asking questions and unraveling
| contradictions with the respondent. 'giving face' is somewhat
| related, but isn't necessarily concerned with veracity and
| reason, only dignity, especially for the (perceived) higher
| class person. i've always liked the 'wisdom of crowds'
| concept because it could be exactly this collective dignity-
| preserving redirection, but it defies power and expertise, so
| doesn't get enough merit and employment.
| runjake wrote:
| There are a lot of armchair scientists touting their ill-informed
| theories, such as "she lives on the 3rd floor" and "she just
| passes a lot of gas".
|
| Building are complex structures with numerous pathways and
| extensive air flow channels that harmful chemicals could pass
| through or get blown.
|
| Often, airflow equipment is in the basement or first floor,
| blowing air throughout a building.
|
| The best way to handle this is to 1) stop the pseudo-scientific
| babble, and 2) perform scientific measurements of the air quality
| by qualified professionals. From the article, it looks like she
| is doing her best to quantify her health issues and to get
| scientific help. What's wrong with that?
| [deleted]
| freetime2 wrote:
| There have absolutely been cases where well-meaning people on
| the internet have caused harm by latching on to a pseudo-
| scientific explanation for an unexplained illness. I'm thinking
| of anti-vaxxers, chronic lyme disease, etc.
|
| I think it's commendable that the author is trying to quantity
| her health issues, but I also don't think she makes a very
| strong case that the cause is toxic waste in the ground as
| opposed to some other issue.
|
| It is irresponsible in my opinion for her to write an article
| titled "I thought I was dying: My apartment was built on toxic
| waste" without more concrete evidence. If she is wrong, this
| could cause undue panic and suffering for other residents in
| the area, as well as monetary damages to the building's owner.
|
| Of course there is also the possibility that she is right, too.
| But given the severity of her symptoms, and the number of
| residents in the complex, I would expect to see more people
| showing up at local hospitals with similar issues. I think the
| correct course of action for a person in this situation would
| basically be to report the issue to local health authorities
| and the building's management, and move out as soon as
| possible.
| heohk wrote:
| I'd bet big bucks it's not the contaminated soil but instead VOCs
| from cure-in-place plumbing
| jjjeii3 wrote:
| Lucky, you are living in United States and not in Europe. In
| Germany, even if you successfully sue local authorities, you will
| get a tiny compensation like 1000 euro.
|
| Another example to show how bad Europe is: if you will be putted
| to jail by mistake in Germany, until recently you will only get
| 25 euro per day... In United States Craig Coley got 1400 $ for
| each day (the case was closed in 2019)! That's more than 50x the
| amount you can get in Germany.
|
| In Europe, your life worth nothing, just like in the north Korea.
| derriz wrote:
| That's not the the case everywhere in Europe. This guy got over
| $2m for two years of wrongful imprisonment -
| https://www.irishtimes.com/news/shortt-awarded-1-9m-for-wron...
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Do you judge the 'goodness' of a country or a continent by the
| amounts paid for settlements? Why?
| kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj wrote:
| This is fucking crazy, but also peak San Fransisco. Can't say I
| am surprised. I just do not understand how people live in that
| crazy bubble.
| microtherion wrote:
| It's so peak San Francisco that it happened 50 miles from San
| Francisco...
| kjjjjjjjjjjjjjj wrote:
| That area is all the same thing
| eplanit wrote:
| I'm glad she found relief, but it's odd that there wasn't illness
| in many more people. The symptoms are very extreme... then I
| caught the clue: "I work full time as a program manager while
| attending law school to become a public interest attorney."
|
| A new Erin Brockovich, it seems. I can't help but recall axiom
| that if your focus is looking for trouble, you're certain to find
| it.
|
| The story would have more credibility if there were more
| illnesses, then it wouldn't smack of resume padding.
| trianglesphere wrote:
| It is odd that more people didn't have symptoms, but given that
| the symptoms preceded discovering that her apartment was next
| to the toxic waste it's more likely than not that this is
| legitimate.
| ohazi wrote:
| The symptoms also stopped when she left.
| galangalalgol wrote:
| Having lived in a new apartment building, the smell was
| very strong even without a superfund underneath. What are
| the odds every new apartment tenant is being poisoned, but
| most don't have asthma or other sensitivities to make it
| obvious and are training in a profession that teaches them
| to look for it?
| trianglesphere wrote:
| It's possible that every tenant is being poisoned (and
| I'd suggest that this is not good either). There's some
| evidence that the new car smell isn't good, and the
| articles reference that problem being with VOCs (link to
| study https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S
| 016041202...).
| jandrese wrote:
| I don't think people are doubting that she has symptoms,
| just that they may be exacerbated by anxiety. Anxiety that
| she has learned she lives near toxic waste and has a gadget
| she bought on the internet that shows big numbers.
| AuryGlenz wrote:
| "This apartment complex had no physical or written appearance
| of danger from chemicals, other than a brief and vague note
| about the presence of "agricultural chemicals" buried towards
| the end of the "Resident Handbook."
| raychail10 wrote:
| Are you serious?! This is what you got out of that entire
| article? Wow. So in order for her story to be credible she has
| to develop what, cancer? Gosh you people are ridiculous. God
| forgot anything like this happens to you. Pretty sure Irvine
| Co. scared away any other complainants, but who cares about
| that, right? We're just going to let large companies block
| necessary investigations and victim blame. You make absolutely
| no sense. How about we push for an investigation?
| nzmsv wrote:
| Occam's razor would lead to this summary: person finds out that
| the apartment was built on a former toxic waste site, gives
| themselves a panic attack.
|
| Of course, there is always the possibility that her unit was
| somehow special, but it's incredibly unlikely. Statements like
| "how would they know I was looking into it" and " and "why would
| they offer me to break the lease with no penalty" further
| strengthen the mental health angle.
|
| This isn't to make fun or diminish the author's concerns. It's
| just that one root cause is much much more likely and really
| should be investigated first. I hope she has someone caring in
| her life to look into that angle.
|
| Edit: happy to burn some karma on this in case this helps someone
| get help for a loved one. Mental health issues are excruciatingly
| hard to deal with and I have first hand experience. It sucks when
| you realize that to help someone you have to go against their
| wishes.
|
| This one seems pretty clear cut. The landlord wishing that she
| would go away is a conspiracy? She talked about this for weeks
| and is surprised someone thought she may have looked at the
| environmental reports? And lastly, everyone in the neighboring
| units is totally fine.
|
| And by the way, I am not saying "she is crazy". I am saying "look
| into both possibilities". I am happy to see that the comment at
| the top with the most votes is saying the exact same thing.
| rini17 wrote:
| Downvoted as this is pure gaslighting. There is plenty of
| objective evidence.
| batch12 wrote:
| To be gaslighting, doesn't this have to be communicated to
| the person and therefore abuse?
| rini17 wrote:
| Okay. Then what is the correct term if it's communicated
| not directly to that person but toward public? Defamation?
| echlebek wrote:
| I'd say it was unnecessarily dismissive.
| refulgentis wrote:
| I believe defamation, or "communicating false statements
| about a person that injure their reputation" doesn't
| apply either.
|
| I believe your criticism is describing that the poster
| didn't reaffirm/"yes, and" the author, but rather,
| posited an alternative explanation.
|
| I would call this "tone deaf" if it was a person they had
| a personal relationship with, "gaslighting" if it
| occurred repeatedly and they were lying in service of
| attempting to manipulate the author, and dead serious,
| not being sarcastic, the worst I could call it in this
| situation is "disagreeing".[1]
|
| I'm really struggling to come up with something that
| satisfies the requirement that we describe the person you
| originally replied to negatively, since neither
| psychological manipulation of the individual or lying are
| involved. Being primed to describe this situation as
| either of those might be throwing me off, I'm curious if
| you have a lengthier explanation that can give us some
| color as to what part of the comment you're trying to
| describe
|
| [1] Personally, I wouldn't call it disagreeing, because I
| got the sense from the article that the author believes
| they've done all they can with off-the-shelf tools and a
| laymen's analysis of planning documents, and they wrote
| up the post _specifically_ because they needed more help,
| hopefully from institutions, to find the explanation
| wait_a_minute wrote:
| I can't downvote yet since not enough karma, but upvoted you.
| refulgentis wrote:
| Wouldn't say there's plenty, and for sure accusing the poster
| of "pure gaslighting" is way overboard: VOCs are a broad
| category, off the shelf monitoring equipment, and surveying
| the environmental remidiation plan, do not a full tale make.
| Hence, why OP wrote the post...they still don't have answers
| or help...
| rini17 wrote:
| And how does that warrant suggesting mental health issue?
| batch12 wrote:
| Suggesting a mental health issue in response to an
| article isn't gaslighting. Gaslighting is a specific type
| of psychological attack against someone.
| raychail10 wrote:
| You're taking all the evidence that she has gathered,
| saying it means nothing and are instead blaming the
| victim...my bad, last time I checked, that was
| gaslighting.
| hahajk wrote:
| The problem is that Occam's Razor will always point to panic
| attacks in cases where the underlying issue doesn't immediately
| show up on imaging/blood work. In this case, though, her
| neighbor allegedly found lead in the water.
| amluto wrote:
| Which is likely unrelated. Lead in the tap water comes from
| older buildings with inappropriate plumbing materials [0] or
| potentially from a colossal screw up with modern
| construction. Or maybe from a really horrible water utility,
| but SF does not have that problem. It has nothing to do with
| contamination of the site.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| I think lots of houses in Europe have lead in the tap water
| though... Because they are old and changing the pipes in
| the building costs a lot. I took a measurement in a
| downtown Budapest flat we rented and it came back 10x the
| limit. The water had no odor, discolor or taste.
| detaro wrote:
| Except the order of events is described the other way around?
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Occam's Razor says she had magical pre-cognitive powers that
| allowed her to get hysterical before she took the readings.
| Because woe betide we not dismiss her.
| nzmsv wrote:
| ... because memory is perfect and people never create false
| memories when faced with cognitive dissonance. Yup.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Wow! She has the incredible power to hallucinate paper
| trails into reality, retroactively altering the course of
| history!? Amazing.
|
| (Hate to ask, but did you _read_ the article? She was
| getting medical treatment well before she got air quality
| readings.)
| galangalalgol wrote:
| She also had asthma, so if that unrecovered tank of chemicals
| was just affecting her unit, and no one else in that unit had
| asthma, they might not have sufficiently severe symptoms to
| notice. It seems quite possible.
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| EMM_386 wrote:
| I'm curious at what the VOCs were that were being measured by the
| home devices.
|
| Indoor VOCs can be caused by numerous common sources. Some of
| these would be common in a new development:
|
| - Paints/Coatings
|
| - Flooring
|
| - Furniture
|
| - Cleaners & Disinfectants
|
| Even though she states "I also noticed the tVOCs seemed to rise
| and fall at different times of the day when I was having the
| worst symptoms", this can be affected by things such as the rise
| and fall of the temperature in the indoor space, or even whether
| something as seemingly benign as candles are lit.
|
| I have no say in this either way, as it would require testing of
| other similar units and finding out if there are any specific VOC
| sources in her individual unit (did a room get painted recently)?
|
| When dealing with indoor VOC levels, it can get tricky.
| dehrmann wrote:
| > Furniture
|
| That's a good point. The article dwells on the remediations
| done to the site that admittedly may not be effective, but
| didn't mention furniture in the unit. It could be her couch or
| a cleaner she's using.
| Sunspark wrote:
| Molds emit VOCs which is also a possibility in some places.
| You might not be exposed to the spores directly, but the
| gases emitted by the growth travels through.
| relax88 wrote:
| This is a great point, I've heard of people purchasing a piece
| of furniture, getting wicked allergy symptoms/irriated airways,
| buying one of these tVOC meters, and finding out it's their
| chair/couch/etc.
|
| She got sick when she moved in? What new furniture did she buy?
| kevingadd wrote:
| Yeah, I bought a tempurpedic mattress once and the off-
| gassing (which the salesman insisted wouldn't happen)
| obliterated my lungs for like a week. Could barely talk, had
| to sleep on the floor downstairs and leave the bedroom
| windows open the whole time to air it out.
| evan_ wrote:
| I'm interested in the 3:00am spike shown on the monitors and her
| physical response. Could the building's HVAC be programmed to
| turn on (or off) at that time?
| ohazi wrote:
| > Can the legal system help?
|
| > I reached out to environmental attorneys. It quickly became an
| issue that my lease agreement included litigation and class
| action waivers.
|
| This bullshit needs to stop.
| newsclues wrote:
| German film Das Edukators had an interesting approach: kidnap
| the rich.
| tremon wrote:
| Make them sign a non-extraction clause in their kidnap lease,
| sue them into the ground when they escape.
| dathinab wrote:
| > litigation and class action waivers.
|
| How can that be legal?
|
| I mean a legal system which allows people to trick and force
| people into not being able to protect themself if they are
| scammed is completely broken IMHO.
| IncRnd wrote:
| It isn't legal but some mumbo-jumbo that is meant to make
| people _think_ they cannot sue.
| kevin_nisbet wrote:
| > I mean a legal system which allows people to trick and
| force people into not being able to protect themself if they
| are scammed is completely broken IMHO.
|
| Was the writer actually tricked, as in did someone
| misrepresent the contents of the lease agreement?
|
| I didn't notice an allegation along those lines in the
| article.
|
| That could be fraud if the contract was miss-represented in
| some way, although some contracts say you are agreeing to
| only what is written and no verbal discussions are part of
| the agreement.
|
| It then becomes a fairly important legal concept that when
| you sign an agreement, that you understand and knowingly
| enter into the terms outlined into that agreement.
|
| As a way overly simplistic example, if I sell a widget for
| $100, some of that price might be to cover potential
| litigation and the like. However, if I find a customer who's
| willing to take the risk and agree to not sue me for some
| problem with the product, that agreement might be worth $75
| to me. If all my competitors start selling competing widgets
| with a template that waives that right to litigate, I might
| have to follow along, because enough customers don't want to
| buy the $100 widgets and realize the price difference is a
| protection for them.
|
| Consumers could presumably band together and elect lawmakers
| that pass a minimum standard that no one can enter into a
| contract that doesn't allow disputes to be resolved via the
| courts, but then you don't get to complain when widgets get
| more expensive, or that there are other terms in the contract
| that aren't agreeable.
|
| If it wasn't a concept that when you enter into an agreement
| and sign those terms, that you actually understand and agree
| to those terms, I can't even predict what the chaos would
| look like.
| dathinab wrote:
| If you buy a widget without guarantees you expect it to at
| worst not work, but if it actively sabotages the rest of
| the site, steals user login cookies, runs a crypto miner
| then it's a different thing altogether.
|
| Similar a apartment might be faulty for all kind of things
| but if it is build on toxic wast, which on itself shouldn't
| have been legal without making sure the wast is contained,
| it is a different matter altogether.
|
| Especially given that whoever know that there was toxic
| wast was _actively endangering the health and potential
| live_ of tenants. Just consider your widget instead of just
| not working to arbitrary start playing flash lights in a
| way extremely likely to cause serve epileptic seizures...
|
| EDIT: Or in other words, you might not guarantee the
| quality of a pice you sell, but this is a different matter
| altogether then trying to make people unable to sue you for
| things they rightfully can (like endangering health/live).
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Agreed. Why is it even possible to get people to waive away
| their rights via fine print? These clauses are a standard
| feature of most if not all contracts these days. They should be
| illegal.
| alexfromapex wrote:
| The legal system is stacked against the little guy. Would be
| even worse if there was an arbitration agreement.
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| Arbitration agreements have no effect on criminal law.
| GavinMcG wrote:
| What makes you think this is something that criminal law
| would address? The vast vast majority of these sorts of
| issues with corporations are handled via civil suits. That
| even includes wage theft, which is the largest category of
| theft several times over. Congress and state legislatures
| have by and large decided (so far) not to criminalize
| corporate wrongdoing unless it impacts shareholders.
| syntaxing wrote:
| Seriously, I don't see why this is legal. Sure, s/he should of
| read the lease carefully but sometimes landlord's purposely
| stuff their lease agreements which makes it equivalent to
| online terms of service.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Read the reactions to many issues on this site. It tells the
| story.
|
| People believe in their own exceptionalism and have a strange
| perspective on freedom. That's the toolbox that companies use
| to divide and conquer. It was particularly hilarious back a
| few years ago when major tech companies were colluding to
| suppress salaries and blacklist employees through "no
| poaching" agreements.
|
| The reaction to this sort of complaint is "just move
| somewhere else" or "that may be a problem for some ditz like
| you, but I am a 10x genius".
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| Lease agreements can't simply waive away criminal liability.
| You can't commit crimes or fraud against someone just by
| getting them to sign a waiver.
|
| I would guess that the real issue is that it would be difficult
| to prove that the leasing company was aware of the issues, or
| even that the environmental issues are the cause of this
| person's problems.
|
| The topic of what has come to be known as "sick building
| syndrome" is a thorny legal issue because many times it's not
| easy to prove that the building is causing the person's
| problem. Most commonly, the issue is that the building is only
| triggering issues for a single person, while others in the same
| building are fine. It's also difficult to separate out the
| psychosomatic complaints from people who believe their issues
| are from the building when they might actually be from
| something else. Doubting these patients publicly is very taboo,
| but medically it's actually not uncommon for this to happen.
| juskrey wrote:
| Exactly, no contract can override legislation which is
| applicable to contract jurisdiction.
|
| Environmental pollution and human poisoning are hardly
| allowed on consent basis.
| ericbarrett wrote:
| You are still on the back foot as a plaintiff facing this
| kind of clause, because before the lawsuit begins the
| defendent will move to force litigation, and you'll have to
| fight this battle (at $300/hour) before the lawsuit itself
| even gets started.
| juskrey wrote:
| Yeah, so basically that sly clause in contract makes no
| difference, the problem is you have to go that path
| yourself, wasting your time, or pay the lawyer, wasting
| money upfront. Pretty much how it works in any part of
| the world, unless you're jumping into train started by
| someone else
| rtkwe wrote:
| They can still pose a distinct barrier to the tenet starting
| a lawsuit right?
| [deleted]
| ohazi wrote:
| > Lease agreements can't simply waive away criminal
| liability. You can't commit crimes or fraud against someone
| just by getting them to sign a waiver.
|
| I think it's specifically problematic that these terms are
| being put into all sorts of legal documents (lease
| agreements, employment agreements, etc.) as standard
| boilerplate.
|
| What you stated is correct, but it almost doesn't matter when
| the terms end up achieving the goals of the more powerful
| party, which is to _discourage_ litigation, even in cases
| where it might be warranted.
|
| You shouldn't be allowed to pretend, in a legal document,
| that your counterparty isn't allowed to sue you for
| wrongdoing. That's basically fraud.
| danuker wrote:
| Absolutely. To me that is a red flag.
| walterbell wrote:
| Are there good open-source components for air quality monitoring,
| e.g multiple sensors that work with a common software platform,
| for continuous data collection and analysis? Ideally something
| that works with low-cost boards like ESP32.
| jfim wrote:
| Not that I'm aware of, but it's actually pretty easy to build
| one from off the shelf parts (ESP8266, Plantower PMSA003,
| Sensirion SHT31, Sensirion SGP30, Senseair S8), which was my
| pet project during the pandemic. Basic soldering skills
| required, but otherwise nothing really complicated about it.
|
| I can write something about it if there's any interest.
| mellavora wrote:
| I've had good support from airgradient
|
| (https://www.airgradient.com/blog/2020/08/25/the-
| airgradient-...)
|
| The linked DIY instructions give you a basic board with PM
| 2.5 particles, temp, humidity, and CO2. It is built on a
| Wemos D1 mini.
|
| The founder (Achim) is very helpful.
|
| If you wanted to use these plans to get started (including
| the software to power the Wemos), then buy whatever
| additional sensors you might like to add, it should be fairly
| simple.
| jfim wrote:
| The BOM is similar but it's not very compact. I have yet to
| 3D print a case for mine and get the PCB manufactured, but
| the dimensions for it are roughly 1"x1"x2" assembled, when
| not on a breadboard.
| walterbell wrote:
| > _I can write something about it if there 's any interest_
|
| That would be great.
|
| https://sigrok.org/ can log data from basic CO2 monitors,
| maybe it could be extended to support the sensors you
| mentioned.
| [deleted]
| xivzgrev wrote:
| This story is very plausible. Just look at the Shipyard condos in
| San Francisco. They had a cleanup, and apparently some parts of
| cleanup were fraudulent. So residents are suing.
|
| https://www.cpmlegal.com/news-Hunters-Point-Shipyard-homeown...
| wait_a_minute wrote:
| Fine the real-estate billionaire owner until he fixes the problem
| in his apartments or is no longer a billionaire, and use the
| fines to clean it up and build new property.
|
| We desperately need a proper wealth tax and anti-NIMBY laws. Make
| more housing construction and super high-rise high-end apartments
| for all part of our infrastructure spending. It's time.
| [deleted]
| xyzzyz wrote:
| What if the owner is not a billionaire? You certainly don't
| need to be one to own an apartment building, you probably don't
| even need to be a multimillionaire, as you can finance the
| project on loans.
|
| Additionally, the building is probably owned by an LLC, so even
| if the owner of the LLC is a billionaire, you can't fine him
| personally, and his billions are irrelevant.
| lawwantsin17 wrote:
| You just know everything don't you? What are you the owner's
| son? Fuck your worthless arguments.
| scrose wrote:
| Directly from the article:
|
| > The owner, Donald Bren, is reportedly worth $15.3 billion.
| titanomachy wrote:
| Assuming he got rich by building this company, his billions
| in wealth would be mostly in the form of his ownership of the
| company. So not entirely irrelevant.
| xyzzyz wrote:
| Yes, but the company will almost certainly be structured in
| a way to limit liability. Most likely, each building will
| be owned by a separate LLC.
| [deleted]
| rtkwe wrote:
| You need to have pretty significant assets to get a foot in
| the door to large buildings from what I've read these
| buildings are rarely the only collateral on the loan.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Good luck. The "owner" of any modern development probably put
| 5-10% down, and has a syndicate of LLCs and LPs fronting money
| in exchange for tax write offs. You'll only find someone
| willing to admit to ownership when the property is 15-20 years
| old.
|
| Cities like NYC didn't adopt strict rent control and regulation
| back the the days before home ownership became a thing for the
| middle class because they were a bunch of commies. The
| incentives for landlords always lead to them being assholes as
| they grow, going back millennia.
| nynx wrote:
| There are quite a few people in the comments here trying to hint
| that this woman is mistaken somehow. This casual sexism is quite
| unfortunate.
| kyberias wrote:
| How is it sexist?
| elliekelly wrote:
| One of the comments essentially accuses the author of
| hysteria.
| gdubs wrote:
| The term is "medical gaslighting" and seems to
| disproportionately affect women. It comes up with things like
| 'chronic fatigue' diagnosis and has to do with women's
| symptoms and experiences being dismissed.
| caddemon wrote:
| It's a dual problem IMO- women are dismissed due to
| unconscious bias sometimes I'm sure, but I also suspect
| there are medical issues out there that are much more
| common in women that have been so under-researched that we
| know basically nothing about them. Which does make it a
| hard problem for front line doctors.
| nynx wrote:
| Because they wouldn't question it if the person in question
| was male. I've seen this pattern far too many times.
| sidlls wrote:
| > Because they wouldn't question it if the person in
| question was male.
|
| You don't know that. This has become one of those
| ridiculous "truisms" that isn't necessarily true, at this
| point.
| elliekelly wrote:
| Or perhaps it is a "truism" with a long and repeatedly
| documented history of being true:
| https://www.rti.org/insights/myth-female-hysteria-and-
| health...
| kyberias wrote:
| You don't know that to be true. I have questioned similar
| claims myself and many of the people have been male. Mostly
| women though.
| luckylion wrote:
| That's nonsense. Please don't litter comments with the
| "everything is sexism"-stuff.
| [deleted]
| refulgentis wrote:
| At the time you posted this, two comments questioned the
| validity of the OP's experience, both downvoted to near-
| invisible with multiple replies denouncing them
| nynx wrote:
| Yes, perhaps my comment was too dramatic.
| highenergystar wrote:
| I don't see it mentioned here, but I wonder if the trees around
| the apartment are transpiring the vocs that are absorbed from the
| (potentially) contaminated water. That would be a way these vocs
| reach her 3rd floor apt, and also may be why her particular
| apartment is affected more than others.in the building (proximity
| to a particular tree?)
| raychail10 wrote:
| All you internet trolls that have nothing to do to criticize this
| article need a wake up call. Did you not read anything about how
| Irvine Co seemed super sketch about the whole thing, refused to
| investigate, and made retaliatory threats?! Of course no one else
| would push this through! In my opinion, this girl is a complete
| badass fighting for answers and instead of criticizing her we
| ought to share this information so it can be properly
| investigated. For all of you writing these idiot comments, just
| think about if you were in her shoes. Instead of victim blaming,
| how about we get alongside her and try to find answers.
| spicyramen wrote:
| Do you know about the Orchard Hills case and The AAA plan in
| Irvine, interesting one https://www.cityofirvine.org/community-
| development/all-ameri...
| spicyramen wrote:
| There is an interesting case in Irvine, CA. There's an Asphalt
| plant which has been operating since 1993. (All American Asphalt
| company). Few years ago, the City of Irvine approved residential
| within 1-2 miles of this plant. The area is called Orchard Hills,
| houses from 1-3M USD. There is an ongoing investigation from UCI,
| City of Irvine, residents and government air quality control
| agency as many people reports strong asphalt smell and high VoC.
| Worth following https://www.cityofirvine.org/community-
| development/all-ameri...
| gedy wrote:
| Isn't this though the stereotypical NIMBY nonsense of people
| knowingly moving into area with existing industry or
| agricultural, then complaining about smells, etc? Or worse,
| bulldozing bare land for their housing subdivisions, then
| complaining about the "environment.
| iJohnDoe wrote:
| What a nightmare.
|
| When you're sick, a lot of times your home is your safe place.
| You go home and crawl in bed and try to feel better. Imagine your
| safe place to feel better is causing you to become even sicker.
| floatingatoll wrote:
| As a reminder to SFbay folks, if you're near a local waterway and
| you smell a strong smell of vanilla cupcakes, you might be
| breathing an industrial toxin that leached from a local superfund
| site. (Don't panic, it won't kill you _quickly_!) It's
| unfortunate that her VOCs were odorless because if they were
| cupcake-odored there wouldn't have been any argument.
| titanomachy wrote:
| Immediately made me think of the 30 Rock maple syrup thing:
| https://youtu.be/OgjXSWsE5Es?t=27
| SigmaEpsilonChi wrote:
| Compelling article. Definitely raises real problems deserving of
| scrutiny; technical, legal, and administrative. I was a little
| bothered that this is just a direct reprinting of a single
| (admittedly deep and well-rounded) anecdotal experience, with no
| input from subject matter experts or independent attempts to
| contact other tenants.
|
| I sent the article to a friend who's a hydrogeologist and
| environmental remediation consultant. Basically, the guy that
| cleanup companies send to assess these sites, take samples, and
| make remediation plans. His hot take:
|
| "Based on the info in the article alone I'd be very surprised if
| soil or groundwater VOCs were getting into her unit in
| concentrations high enough to cause acute health effects. Sounds
| like there's a vapor venting system installed which in my
| experience alleviates all indoor air concerns. It could be that
| it exhausts near her window or something and concentrates in her
| apartment, but that would be a design/architectural issue more
| than an environmental issue per se. My initial suspicion would be
| that she bought cheap furniture or there's cheap carpets or
| something that are offgassing VOCs."
|
| A quick read from a single expert isn't enough to draw
| conclusions, but I do wish the paper had bothered to seek that
| kind of input before publishing.
|
| Whatever the cause of this person's symptoms may be, inadequate
| environmental remediation is a very real problem that deserves
| our concern. I wish the comments in this thread focused more on
| that. Instead the primary debate is whether a single person with
| apparently serious symptoms but no expertise, resources, or
| authority made the right technical call after being ignored by
| the people with all the expertise, resources, and authority. IMO
| that is the real story here: a person bought (a) furnishing for
| (b) a condo on a plot of (c) remediated land, experienced a
| health crisis, and the relevant parties (that she's paying rent
| and taxes to!) all seem to have ghosted her instead of
| investigating which of those 3 things was the problem. After an
| experience like that, how could you blame her for doing her best
| to collect evidence and draw her own conclusions?
|
| Even if the cause she identified is wrong, it's not imagined.
| This isn't "cancer from cell towers" or "migraines from wind
| turbines". You just won't read an article from the victims of
| industrial pollution in Bayview/Hunter's Point.
| princekolt wrote:
| She mentions her vitals returned to normal after moving away,
| and presumably she took her furniture when she moved, so it
| seems unlikely it's caused by that.
| whatsavoc wrote:
| It mentions she used various monitors to detect the VOcs. Anyone
| know of a decent reliable VOC monitor?
| thomasjudge wrote:
| There's several available for around $100 on Amazon. I have
| one, it is hard to know how accurate/complete it is with
| respect to VOC detection, I mainly use mine for PM10 detection
| during fire season, and it seems reasonably accurate in that it
| agrees with the state's readings
| kawsper wrote:
| Awair Element: https://uk.getawair.com/home/element
| sydd wrote:
| hmm I don't know how this one works, but I'd be very wary of
| devices that are not equipped by a sensor thats bulging out
| of the device or one with a fan moving the air into the
| sensor.
| tekacs wrote:
| It does have a fan that draws air in (I believe through the
| hole in the front).
|
| I've seen these and you can hear it running during
| operation.
| dehrmann wrote:
| > one of my neighbors at the same complex complained about blue
| tap water and paid for a private lab test showing "very high"
| levels of lead, copper and other contaminants in the water.
|
| That's weird, though "copper" could just be from the pipes, and
| it's probably unrelated to VOCs. The complex should be on city
| water, and all the pipes are new.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Also copper is an essential trace element and the acceptable
| amount of copper in drinking water is quite high, 1.3 ppm. If
| that were the actual concentration of copper in this
| apartment's tap water, the pipes will be corroded through in no
| time. Anyway if a lab test shows more than 1.3 ppm of copper in
| drinking water then a tenant should, immediately, move to a
| hotel, stop paying the rent, and file a legal claim for loss of
| enjoyment plus the cost of temporary accommodation, which would
| be a slam-dunk of a suit.
| Aboh33 wrote:
| Some years back I signed a lease in a luxury apartment hi-rise in
| downtown Chicago. The complex had been an add-on to an existing
| shopping center and mall. Long story short, the apartment smelled
| like old grease and trash often, and I could never trace the
| exact source as it would come and go. No matter how many air
| filtration units I installed, or odor absorbing devices, the
| odors would still collect and infiltrate my clothing and
| furniture. Again, it wasn't constant but regular enough for me
| not to stay there very often.
|
| I ended up caulking the entire apartment with clear caulk and
| sealing any air gaps. Because the hi-rise was pressurized like
| most hi-rises, I concluded somehow this was drawing up smells
| from grease traps etc. Of course I could never prove it.
|
| My conclusion is that most of these buildings are so cheaply and
| poorly made that I will never again rent a unit like this. Too
| bad I spent 30k on the lease and hardly ever stayed there. So the
| woman's experience seems pretty plausible to me.
| crocsarecool wrote:
| I'm surprised she didn't try to escape from her apartment like
| you did. She mentions sleeping outside on an occasion, but
| that's about it. I think I would have paid some money to go to
| a hotel, stay with a friend, grab an AirBnB someplace just to
| figure out if my symptoms went away. The things she was
| experiencing sounded just horrible.
| sokoloff wrote:
| The difficulty there is if you believe your home is making
| you sick, you're quite likely to feel more at ease and sleep
| better in another place. Or you're sleeping away from all
| your new furnishings and the building materials which are
| off-gassing.
|
| So, you get a datapoint that's better, but what do you do
| with it?
| wrongdonf wrote:
| Any appliance that uses water needs to drain the water. A house
| has water pipes and it has drain pipes. The drain pipes connect
| directly to the sewer main. They are full of sewer gas. What
| everyone knows is that these drain pipes have "traps" that use
| a slug of water to prevent sewer gases from intruding into the
| house. What everyone does not know is that these drain lines
| need to be vented in order to operate properly. Usually these
| vent lines terminate outside. But you can use vent lines that
| terminate inside the house, with a special check valve to allow
| air to go into the vent but not the other way around. They are
| notorious for failing and leaking sewer gas into the house. If
| I had to guess, this is what your problem was. Did your kitchen
| have an island with a sink?
| kevin_nisbet wrote:
| > I ended up caulking the entire apartment with clear caulk and
| sealing any air gaps. Because the hi-rise was pressurized like
| most hi-rises, I concluded somehow this was drawing up smells
| from grease traps etc.
|
| I would be cautious of taking actions like these as it can have
| some pretty bad knock on effects. I'm on the board of my condo
| corporation for a high rise in Canada and we have seen topics
| like this come up from time to time.
|
| To help control odour between units, the air handling system in
| our building is designed to draw air into the hallways, from
| the hallways to the units, to outside. The idea of routing
| airflow like this is to try and prevent smell transfer between
| units, but the airflow also has a purpose to help control
| moisture buildup, which IIRC gets worse if there is no airflow,
| and can lead to mold. So we discourage blocking the airflow
| from the way the building was designed, and property management
| has advised us in other buildings this had been observed to
| lead to severe moisture problems.
|
| And we have had issue pop up with trash smell and the like.
| Where that's happened to us is two causes, there is a sort of
| air damper on the garbage chute, and it's gotten jammed on us
| IIRC. The other is our garbage room opens to take the bins out,
| and if the doors are left open for an extended period and the
| wind hits the building right it can draw air through the
| garbage room and through the chute. This can also occur when
| folks leave their trash blocking the chute door open allowing
| more air to flow between the chute and hallways.
|
| Stuff like that can be hard to figure out, because if the
| garbage room is left open every day, it doesn't always happen
| due to the wind or possibly other factors.
|
| The third one we get sometimes is smoking smells, which is
| usually caused by a smoker not wanting to use their balcony in
| winter, so instead they go into the stairwells. We traced one
| of those across more than 20 floors once. It can be difficult
| to trace those ones, so it comes with a lot of sending
| broadcast messages and work to trace down.
|
| I get not all property managers are super helpful, but if they
| get a few reports from different individuals and can link it to
| some action like having the garbage room open can hopefully
| have them solve the real problem.
| Aboh33 wrote:
| Just to follow up, I removed all the caulking when I
| terminated my lease and left the apartment in its original
| state, ready for its next victim...
| dhekir wrote:
| This echoes some vibes of Neal Stephenson's Zodiac. Replace
| Boston with The Bay, PCBs with VOCs, and fast-forward some 30
| years, and there you have it. If only we could learn from past
| mistakes...
| amluto wrote:
| > The completion report said, "While not an environmental remedy,
| because there are no significant risks, a VIMS consisting of a
| vapor barrier and a sub-slab venting system has been designed and
| installed." Installing these apparently could cost millions of
| dollars. It's curious to me that Roux would plan to build four
| VIMS, or even build one, if they really thought VOCs were not an
| issue.
|
| That sounds awfully like the way that ordinary houses are
| constructed, especially anywhere with (naturally occurring!)
| radium in or under the soil. When one builds a house with a slab
| foundation, one first builds a capillary break (a bunch of rocks
| with no fines, perhaps -- this is an air-permeable layer), then
| applies a vapor barrier (polyethylene sheets), then pours the
| slab directly on the vapor barrier. The only thing special about
| sub slab venting is a pipe from the capillary break to the roof
| that may or may not be fan assisted. The goal isn't so much to
| remove gas from under the slab as to reduce the pressure under
| the slab below the pressure above the slab such that gas doesn't
| intrude.
|
| All of this except the pipe is done regardless of soil gas
| concerns -- water vapor coming through the slab destroys floor
| coverings.
|
| I know basically nothing about commercial construction, and I
| could easily believe that vapor barriers are optional under
| parking lots.
|
| Given that the VOCs in question are easily measurable in real
| time with a cheap sensor, it could be interesting to measure the
| VOCs at the lowest level of the parking lot over time. Some
| parking lots have CO (or CO2?) sensors that control exhaust fans.
| If there is less car activity at 3am, the fans could turn off,
| and that could have any number of effects.
|
| (Also, the author doesn't seem to have tried to distinguish
| between gasses coming from the building and gasses coming from
| under or outside the building. There is no actual evidence I saw
| in the article that the problem is a problem with the _site_.
| Heck, a building air intake being contaminated by gasses from the
| parking lot could introduce a fair amount of CO and NOx even if
| the levels were too low to set off a CO alarm. Builders mess up
| the airflow in buildings all the time.
|
| Sadly, NOx sensors do not appear to be available at comparable
| prices to tVOC and CO sensors.
| syntaxing wrote:
| I never would of though to check something like this.
| Interestingly, the EPA has a GIS API so I see a couple people
| make maps on ARCGIS. Definitely making something for my house
| purchase.
|
| [1]
| https://gispub.epa.gov/arcgis/rest/services/OEI/FRS_INTEREST...
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