[HN Gopher] Staying awake to treat depression (2018)
___________________________________________________________________
Staying awake to treat depression (2018)
Author : softwaredoug
Score : 217 points
Date : 2021-04-04 00:31 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mosaicscience.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (mosaicscience.com)
| kennethh wrote:
| For me as a parent, I found this snippet from the article
| interesting:
|
| It may also work as a prophylactic: recent studies suggest that
| teenagers whose parents set - and manage to enforce - earlier
| bedtimes are less at risk of depression and suicidal thinking.
| Like light therapy and sleep deprivation, the precise mechanism
| is unclear, but researchers suspect a closer fit between sleep
| time and the natural light-dark cycle is important.
|
| I have an 8 year old girl and notice that every time the bedtime
| routine is delayed her behaviour gets worse both in the evening
| and the day after.
| Jolter wrote:
| Behavior in an 8-year old who deviated from her regular bed
| time does not seem like a good analog for teenager depression.
| multjoy wrote:
| No worse than any of the rest of the anecdotes being thrown
| about.
| jamesgreenleaf wrote:
| You can certainly try this method, especially when you're
| younger, and you'll probably feel exhilarated and your mood will
| improve... until you finally go to sleep again. The effects don't
| last very long, and losing sleep continually is very bad for your
| health.
|
| I would recommend to anyone with depression that you first change
| your diet. Stop eating refined carbs & processed foods of any
| kind. Stick to basic fruits & vegetables with some whole grains,
| and beans for protein. Adapt this as your personal needs vary,
| and as you see fit. I think you'd probably be amazed how much
| eating well affects your mood, especially if you've never done it
| before for any long period of time.
|
| Here's some more info on a good, simple, science-backed diet to
| follow: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-
| eating-...
| tom_mellior wrote:
| > your mood
|
| Depression is not about "your mood". Depression is not the same
| as feeling slightly unhappy. By all means, everyone should eat
| healthy foods. But if you have a medical condition
| (depression), get medical help.
| seibelj wrote:
| I started suffering from depression at 18 and it got
| progressively worse, with periodic bouts putting me in bed for
| days. True misery. I switched to a very disciplined lifestyle
| of exercise and a diet as suggested above and it helped a lot,
| but it did not cure me. I just suffered less.
|
| What cured me was SSRI medication (Lexapro). I still try to
| maintain healthy diet and exercise but the SSRI was night and
| day. I had minimal side effects and it completely changed my
| life. My 2 cents.
| cgriswald wrote:
| For me, an SSRI worked wonders, but was just a short term
| band aid. I had to adjust my dose or switch medications
| pretty early on. I also felt like I lost something ephemeral
| while medicated.
|
| Diet and exercise also helped tremendously and had lasting
| effects. I not only felt better, but it was earned. It took a
| lot of discipline to make this happen while depressed.
|
| Therapy is what worked. Everything else was great at
| relieving symptoms, which gave me the capacity to work
| through therapy. But, for me, they didn't act as a cure any
| more than cough syrup and chicken soup cure a cold.
| seibelj wrote:
| I tried years of therapy but honestly never found a
| therapist that clicked. I am a very corporate, achievement,
| "work 80 hours a week" type person and therapists didn't
| understand and constantly identified my lifestyle as a
| source _or_ symptom of my depression which is 100% not
| true.
|
| The human brain is enormously complex. You can be depressed
| by patterns of thought, past trauma / historical issues, or
| simply a chemical imbalance. I firmly believe I had a
| chemical imbalance and the SSRI fixed it. It was seriously
| a night and day difference in my life.
|
| I think there are many varied causes of depression and this
| is why the same techniques don't work for everyone. But for
| my situation the drugs worked.
| herbst wrote:
| I get depressed from 36 hour weeks. Maybe the therapists
| arent wrong thinking that 80 hour weeks aint healthy,
| even if you love your job lessure is super relevant too
| pottertheotter wrote:
| I think everything involved with trying to change your diet is
| a pretty difficult hill to climb for most depressed people.
| pope_meat wrote:
| "I'm just not going to eat" is usually where that ends up for
| me. Simple solutions for complex problems.
| erikerikson wrote:
| I find that any change I would like, I think about the change
| and how it fits into my values structure over a few days and
| change my mindset on the matter. Then I slowly shift in
| little steps towards that goal. When I experience barriers, I
| take those seriously and incorporate the insights into my
| mindset and maybe adjust my it accordingly. In a sense the
| initial mindset work is asking myself to be serious about
| what I really want and how it fits holistically into my ways
| of being. Then I am more motivated because it's not just -I
| have this idea that it's what I want" it is "I want that" so
| I trust I'll get there and allow myself to work through the
| full complexity of the change.
|
| In particular, this gets rid of the "I must exert energy to
| do this" dynamic that can be an unbreakable barrier in a
| depressive state.
| scsilver wrote:
| Seriously even before food, drink more water. Seriously.
| cyberlurker wrote:
| Agreed but drinking the recommended amount of water is harder
| than I thought it would be! For one, it's a lot of water.
| More than I would have thought. And second, if I'm ever going
| to be out and about or not able to use the restroom
| frequently I find it impossible.
|
| I highly recommend more people hydrate properly but I don't
| blame people who have a hard time, especially if they don't
| work tech jobs where bathroom breaks are plentiful. Some of
| my teacher friends have it rough.
| weird-eye-issue wrote:
| I drink more than the recommended amount of water every day
| and yet I'm still depressed. It is almost like water can't
| cure depression. Seriously.
| klyrs wrote:
| Me too, but when I forget to drink water, I feel awful and
| my mental/physical wellbeing tend to spiral. An easy thing
| to forget when I'm depressed and focusing on anything but
| my own existence.
|
| Compared to "depressed? Just make nutrition an even taller
| barrier with an extra heap of guilt if you soft-fail!",
| it's at least benign, and beneficial for me
| [deleted]
| cmehdy wrote:
| Thank you.
|
| "oh, have you tried more sunshine?", "try taking vitamin D,
| it's probably just a seasonal affective disorder", "just
| sleep well, eat well, drink well, don't do anything else
| and you're good to go"
|
| How about just go see some damn doctors first, and who
| knows if they'll find something off with your thyroid, if
| they can't do anything but diagnose a severe depression, if
| your super-healthy-diet-2.0 is lacking in something and
| it's in your blind spot, etc.
|
| This trend of lifestyle coaches telling obvious things is
| getting on my nerves quite frankly. I've drank your 3
| liters of water per day, I've taken your vitamin D
| supplements in the winter, I've done the five kinds of
| fruit and veggies per day, I've done the low to no carb
| diets, I've done full years of thorough tracking on
| myfitnesspal, I've done the running frequently and lifting
| often. I've followed proper sleep habits that didn't budge
| even on weekends in order to retain a rhythm. I've gone on
| walks. And so on.
|
| What I haven't done is get proper help with people who knew
| what the hell they were talking about, because everybody
| else was trying to be a damn doctor and telling me that the
| lemon in their hot water in the morning is probably the
| difference between my messed up self and their stable life.
| Proper treatments made the difference between life and
| death. Thanks everybody else..
|
| SEE PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT THEY STUDIED.
| [deleted]
| mkr-hn wrote:
| Doctors are too expensive and there are too many gaps in
| social safety nets that allow some people to access
| medical care who otherwise couldn't. Sometimes people who
| can access medical care have had bad experiences with
| doctors. I think most people who go to woo, life coach
| hell, and different medical traditions were driven there
| by terrible doctors or desperation.
| cmehdy wrote:
| And I was too. But I wasn't taken out of that hell by the
| lifestyle coaches, I was taken out of that hell when
| "good" (knowledgeable and empathetic and available)
| doctors, who do exist, brought their actual knowledge and
| experience to my problem. After about 20 excruciating
| years.
|
| The point is, you don't know if you have a small cut or a
| fracture. While the bandaid can help the lesser problem,
| you're going to have a very bad time if you let people
| advise you to just put bandaids on your fracture.
|
| I'm not saying people shouldn't apply at all general
| tips, but people need to realize that it should
| mandatorily come with "and go seek professional help if
| your suffering is increasing or if it is hard to bear, no
| matter how long it takes". It should be encouraged,
| because people who are suffering from various kinds of
| issues like depression or bpd are likely already not
| wanting to go due to both psychological factors
| (anhedonia, anxiety disorders about what they'll find or
| how their finances affect them, self-abandonment) AND the
| state of their lives.
|
| High-functioning depression? well there can be a degree
| of delusion to operate well enough ("It's not that bad"
| until you flip out). Or not functioning at all? then your
| income is likely lower than if you were feeling well,
| thus the financial stress and lack of access to
| convenient solutions for medical support. And then you
| just read people saying how they went from couch to being
| a CEO because they wake up at 5 every day and drink lots
| of water.. well cool for you, but if you were lucky that
| it wasn't a fracture that doesn't change the lack of
| diagnosis of MY thing!
| [deleted]
| holoduke wrote:
| That's not true. Diet had much much greater impact on your
| brains.
| scsilver wrote:
| Depends, try not drinking for 4 days and see how you feel,
| now try without eating.
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| We shouldn't need to say it, but the most simple things like sun
| exposure, outdoor activities, organic food help a lot against any
| mental issues, and sleep only when you need it!
| herbst wrote:
| I agree with the other poster, this does not simply work for
| everyone.
| tom_mellior wrote:
| The reason we shouldn't say these things is because they are
| _wrong_ in general. There is no magic silver bullet against
| depression. Especially not a one-size-fits-all one. And telling
| depressed people to go out and exercise can be _actively
| harmful_ because it puts even more pressure on people who find
| it hard to cope with everyday pressures.
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| definitely, what I mean is refocusing on the very basic
| things humans do and exiting the excessive social pressure
| help to regenerate ourselves. By "outdoor activities" I don't
| mean something with other people, with schedules etc.. no
| just very simple things, like walking alone, around trees,
| and releasing all that pressure
| tom_mellior wrote:
| > walking alone, around trees
|
| You don't understand depression, and you are not qualified
| to make suggestions to people with depression. Please stop.
|
| We are talking about people who find it hard to get out of
| bed in the morning, and to motivate themselves to do the
| most basic tasks, let alone putting on clothes, going out,
| possibly going among people to ride public transport to
| where the nice trees are. Ugh. Also, the season/weather
| might be all wrong for enjoyment outside. Also, even
| temporary enjoyment outside might not cure _a medical
| condition that you obviously do not understand_.
|
| _" Just motivate yourself" is not a solution for not being
| able to motivate oneself._ Please stop.
| 11235813213455 wrote:
| To take an analogy, I feel like I'm suggesting someone
| should try and fix himself his bicycle flat tire, and
| you're reponding: "No, don't, you could injure yourself.
| Make sure you go see a professional and don't listen to
| those personal experiences"
|
| I know it's a serious topic, I've been diagnosed with
| depression several years ago, that's why I just let my
| simple experience with it, that goes well with ideas
| developed in the article, of natural & risk-free
| drug/treatments alternatives
| thelastestate wrote:
| Yup, too embarrassed to admit it, but this... People love me when
| I'm in that state, which, I guess who I am when not going through
| (waves arms this), so I make sure to give it to them. I tested
| myself and besides some extremely light loss in agility and
| mental acuity (then again more social when tired) my work's the
| same... except for the flashes of insight, drive, energy and
| hmmm... Given the MASSIVE gains to productivity, wealth creation
| and global competitiveness any sane government should be
| investing incredible sums into mental health.
| xvedejas wrote:
| It's very strange to me that this is the case for those with
| clinical depression; I personally feel great each morning and by
| the late evening my mood tends to be nearly as low as it was when
| I did have a bout of clinical depression. I wonder if this
| suggests a different mechanism for my melancholy.
| [deleted]
| pottertheotter wrote:
| This is so interesting to read. I'm not always in a deep
| depression, but I'm trying to recall a period of my life where
| I could say "I generally feel great in the morning" and I can't
| think of one. I'm not saying I generally feel bad, but never
| great.
| xvedejas wrote:
| The "great" is after maybe a half hour of grogginess. Then I
| feel like I have peak motivation and am ready to take on the
| world, for the rest of the morning. I sure would love to have
| that perspective for the rest of the day. Caffeine kind of
| enhances it.
|
| Possibly relevant, I regularly get about 9 hours of sleep
| each night.
| inakarmacoma wrote:
| Agreed. I can't remember ever feeling great or well rested
| upon waking. It's depressing. Or depression, as it were.
| darkerside wrote:
| Exercise immediately upon waking. After a week of this, you
| wake fully primed. No coffee needed.
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| I got a bit of an existential creative mind, and I love sleep
| deprivation because it kicks me into lucid dreaming a lot.
|
| I have incredibly intense waking dreams for hours on end, I fall
| asleep and wake up up to 15 times in a row.
|
| They are more intense then most psychedelic trips I've had. Lucid
| dreams feel like I'm some where between the material and
| metaphysical world.
|
| I use the WILD or Wake-Initiated Lucid Dream method. It can be
| annoying sometimes because you essentially have to go through
| sleep paralysis every time, which can be terrifying if you don't
| know about it or aren't in the mood for it.
|
| Copying this from another website but it sorta works like this;
|
| > "Wake yourself up after 4 to 6 hours of sleep, get out of bed
| and stay up for anywhere between a few minutes to an hour before
| going back to bed. It is preferable that you do something related
| to lucid dreaming during this time, but it is not required.
|
| Go back to bed and lie absolutely still, as if your body is
| melting into the mattress and losing all sensation. Silence your
| inner monologue if it starts to chime in. You may hear hypnagogic
| sounds, echoes of voices and other sounds in your head.
|
| Once in the half-dream state, you will experience hypnagogia as a
| mixture of patterns and colors that take over your vision in the
| darkness. Observe your hypnagogia and stay relaxed, allowing it
| to hypnotize you and draw your awareness away from the outside
| world into the internal dream world that is starting to evolve
| now."
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Why would you want to do this? I have some sleep paralysis like
| experiences from time to time and have never found them
| enjoyable. Even more so when the dream only leads me into
| another dream and on and on.
| dorkwood wrote:
| It's hard to describe if you've never experienced it. It's
| like the most powerful psychedelic drug you can take. It
| allows you to manifest an entirely new world into existence.
| It's the ultimate power trip. True autonomy. But it's
| addictive, and will fuck up your sleep habits if you fall
| under its spell too much.
| samhain wrote:
| I discovered the technique he's talking about on my own back
| in maybe 2016. He has some extra fluffy language around it
| that makes it seem more than it is. It's really just falling
| back asleep after you've already woken up at a specific time.
| For me, it was 4 AM. The point is that you can control your
| dreams. So I was using it to have sexual dreams. Which is why
| the other guy says it can be addictive (which I'd argue is
| also hyperbole).
| andai wrote:
| I really enjoy flying. I do it almost every night.
| jmiskovic wrote:
| A weird question, but what are the flying mechanics in your
| dreams? Like superman, ironman, or more bird-like? How much
| in control are you?
| TeeMassive wrote:
| I've experienced similar things using this pattern, but also
| using melatonin before going to sleep. Not only I get to sleep
| 12+ hours, the dreams I do are so lucid it's crazy. I get to
| explore the world as I know it and sometimes I can even fix
| nightmares. This has helped me a lot.
| AltruisticGapHN wrote:
| Not intensely depressed, though I am still heaming trauma.
|
| From my teens to mid thirties, I often stayed up very late well
| until 4 am. Usually I'd find it very difficult to restore my
| sleeping hours so I would keep shifting forward, like sleeping at
| 11am, getting up at 8pm... until i was again up at like 5 am...
| then i managed normal waking hours for a few weeks and the cycle
| would repeat.
|
| In hindsight I always felt safer at night. When the world seems
| to be asleep, i felt less pressure, it was quiet...
|
| I also remember when staying awake longer or sleeping a few
| hours, it was pleasant in some ways, i didn't feel as anxious,
| like sailing on a cloud.
|
| The research doesn't surprise me but sadly it is always a
| clinical perspective. These people are not genuinely cured of
| "depression" whatever is the clinical description. We know a lot
| more about the physiology of trauma these days, and there is
| almost always some type of trauma involved, meaning an experience
| of physical / emotional overwhelm, and a nervous system that
| never quite returned to normal. Usually there is a history of
| developmental trauma and / or tramatic events like violence, or
| serious accidents. Sometimes a stay in hospital can be traumatic
| as well, invasive procedures, lack of connection, etc.
| stereoabuse wrote:
| I only have anecdotal evidence. Long time depressive, combination
| of several SSRI and atypical antidepressants with cyclical
| efficacy, about 1 decade of varying treatment approaches. One
| weekend in summer 2016 was the changing point between "old very
| depressive me" and "new just regular depressive me" - involved
| intercontinental travel, zero sleep for somewhere 48+ hours, and
| some socialization and 'partying' in a culture new to me. My
| first response to feeling this change a couple days later after I
| had returned to my home country was too look up research on sleep
| deprivation's use in depression treatment. Was pleasantly
| surprised when there seems to be some marginal evidence for its
| efficacy. That being said, staying awake for that long was a
| misery in itself and I'm not looking to repeat that in the future
| so I'll stick to the couple pills I take in the morning to tame
| everything for now.
| m463 wrote:
| I will say that the best sleep - the deepest and most
| satisfying sleep - it happens for me after staying awake for
| too long.
|
| I suspect a good lifestyle for me would be to have 26 hour
| days.
| dnate wrote:
| it is possible: https://xkcd.com/320/
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I'm just like you. Left to my devices I will go to bed 2
| hours later each day.
|
| Taking sub-1mg doses of melatonin every night has helped me
| cope with a 24 hour day tremendously. Have you tried that?
| stefandesu wrote:
| Do you know anything about long-term consequences of taking
| melatonin supplements? I remember the results being
| inconclusive when I looked it up once.
|
| I'm currently trying to get off melatonin and also get to a
| natural sleep cycle (meaning I won't have an alarm in the
| morning). But that usually means that I won't be able to
| fall asleep at night and I'll sleep forever in the morning
| if nothing external is waking me up. I'm not sure if I
| should continue or if I should just start taking melatonin
| again because it helps tremendously.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I haven't found anything that would point to total safety
| or the opposite. Then again, there are plenty of studies
| on the dangers of sugar and I still eat a bit of
| chocolate every day. Same for red meat, plastics touching
| food, caffeine, beer, being slightly overweight, driving,
| not using sunscreen regularly, stress, lack of sleep.
|
| Is the risk of taking a small amount of melatonin every
| day really something to worry about in the bigger
| picture, if it helps you and has a long history of being
| used for this purpose without problems?
|
| Like lots of people here I just can't beat my tendencies
| to stay up late despite massively good sleep hygiene. I
| end up missing sleep, being cranky and depressive, and
| generally having a lower quality of life because I just
| don't feel like going to bed - and when I do make it to
| bed I ruminate for a long time before falling asleep. If
| no new information presents itself, I plan on keeping
| good habits and being on melatonin for the rest of my
| life.
| Pyramus wrote:
| I don't have an answer for long-term melatonin
| unfortunately.
|
| In most folks circadian rhythm is not exactly 24 but
| slightly more or less. In this case it is helpful to
| force the sync by getting exposure to sun light (or a
| source of similar quality) in the morning and religiously
| cut off exposure to light several hours before going to
| bed.
|
| Ideally you completely filter out both blue and green
| wavelength (which trigger the suppression of melatonin)
| and keep overall levels low.
|
| For more information see shift workers' strategies - they
| have to change their rhythm on a weekly basis.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Congratulations on trying this.
|
| It is worth mentioning that lifelong sleep deprivation is
| linked to different types of dementia in the elderly, so
| I'm not sure which is worse: persistent sleep problems or
| nightly hormone supplements.
| aklemm wrote:
| I'm the same but I've long suspected our bodies need more
| physical activity. Any day that I work hard in the woods or
| around my house, I sleep well.
|
| It's doubtful to me that pre-industrial folks had a ton of
| trouble going and staying to sleep.
|
| And fwiw, "working out" helps, but isn't the same as a
| day's manual labor.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I should note that I often spend my days working
| construction and regularly average 3 hours of exercise
| per day. Doesn't help me that much. Big exception made
| for the first day spent surfing if I haven't surfed in a
| while, that knocks me out cold.
|
| It makes sense to me that if we stimulate ourselves
| through sugar, caffeine, artificial light, information,
| worry etc that we can benefit from a mild depressive to
| balance the stimulus. The other option is a monk-like
| existence that I haven't been able to keep going for more
| than a few months at a time and wouldn't want to go back
| to.
| m463 wrote:
| Apart from taking vitamins irregularly I usually put my
| body in charge of generating the pharmaceuticals. :)
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| I'd ask you to consider that whenever you turn on a
| lightbulb or a computer screen you're already interfering
| with your body's agency over this particular chemical.
| Don't spend 10 hours every day outdoors? You are well out
| of natural parameters already.
| amelius wrote:
| > involved intercontinental travel, zero sleep for somewhere
| 48+ hours, and some socialization and 'partying' in a culture
| new to me
|
| Those are quite some experiences, each of which could have
| contributed to some form of recovery.
| pram wrote:
| I know that exact feeling. In 2010 I went from pretty crippling
| depression to a higher-functioning (lol) depression/anhedonia.
| It involved a nonstop drive from eastern Washington to south
| Texas. Never thought about it but it might have been the sleep
| deprivation and adrenaline.
| Tildey wrote:
| Here's my anecdotal experience as a relatively young person. I
| have some form of untreated (and admittedly self diagnosed) long
| term depression, and experience depressive episodes in addition
| to that (yes, I've tried exercising. Yes I have a good diet. Yes
| I try get enough sleep)
|
| If I skip a night, I find I feel very productive and ready to
| work starting around 6am. I have a generally more positive
| outlook on things, I feel like I can achieve my goals etc. Mental
| clouding isn't too bad until the late afternoon, at which point I
| turn into a depressed lump incapable of doing things that require
| much mental effort. Mental health at this point basically returns
| to normal.
|
| If I supplement this with additional (prescription) ADHD
| medication (taking it at around 1am, and at prescribed intervals
| until bedtime the next day) I'm actually in a pretty good place
| for an entire day. I feel barely physically impaired at all. I
| probably wouldn't operate heavy machinery or drive long distances
| (or with other people), but I can function quite well.
|
| In either case, the next day is horrible. Oversleeping, feeling
| tired all day no matter what, sever brain fog, measurably worse
| reaction times. The improved mood is not worth it, especially
| when I'm already so used to dealing with it. I don't think I
| could physically stay up for two nights (three full days) in a
| row.
| thelastestate wrote:
| How did you break out of the funk!? And I found a way to
| mitigate the 'punishment' via prescribed SSRis anti-anxiety.
| thelastestate wrote:
| serotonin?
| Tildey wrote:
| What do you mean my the funk? Without meaning to sound
| melodramatic, I've been depressed for so long I can cope
| quite well with it. The additional depressive episodes mostly
| come and go of their own accord
| scottshea wrote:
| Oh my God, THANK YOU! I have used this for years but my
| psychologists think I am nuts
| bobbiechen wrote:
| If you're interesting in learning more, Scott Alexander recently
| discussed research on this topic with a lot of links to papers:
| https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/sleep-is-the-mate-of-d...
|
| > _But forget the practical side of this for now. It looks like
| sleep is somehow renewing these people 's depressions. As if
| depression is caused by some injury during sleep, heals part of
| the way during an average day (or all the way during an extra-
| long day of sleep deprivation) and then the same injury gets re-
| inflicted during sleep the next night. _
| taeric wrote:
| With that phrasing, I can't but muse that it is not the sleep
| that causes issues, but the "starting fresh" in the morning.
|
| Hypothesis being that something about a well rested mind lets a
| waking person check off more of a list of things to consider
| first thing in the morning.
| kiba wrote:
| I have depression/anxiety and procrastination issue in the
| morning. It gets better especially once I decided to do
| something for the day. Then it's all momentum all the way.
| sn41 wrote:
| Making a timetable for the next day helps, I have found.
| The downside is that I tend to say no to anything that
| deviates from the timetable.
| Shugarl wrote:
| I had a similar issue, and I found a solution : Rather
| than aiming to follow my plan, I aim to do a
| predetermined amount of tasks (25 in my cases),
| regardless of whether or not they are in my schedule. I
| use an app to keep track of the amount of tasks done, and
| it has been surprisingly effective!
| yellowapple wrote:
| Which app? Definitely curious if it'll help with my own
| procrastination (and possibly undiagnosed depression).
|
| The last time I made some headway on why I seem to
| endlessly procrastinate (said headway being enabled by,
| er, "self medication"), I came to the conclusion that
| it's because my brain sees a whole bunch of things to do,
| and instead of taking the rational approach of "well take
| things one at a time", it instead gets into a whirlwind
| of indecision, panics under the stress of all these
| things to do, and immediately starts reaching for an
| escape, thus compounding the problem. In the "self
| medicated" state my brain was more able to get into a
| groove of "okay, do $N more things" and actually make
| some headway, but only until the nausea caught up to me
| (at which point I had to force myself to call it a day).
|
| My hope is that it's just a matter of tooling, and that a
| better toolset will help me get out of ruts without
| needing to rely on mind-altering substances.
| Shugarl wrote:
| I just downloaded one of the first apps that I found on
| the Google Play Store when I searched for "incrementor".
| I think any app where a number goes up when you press a
| button will do the trick.
| dwaltrip wrote:
| My understanding is that procrastination most commonly
| stems from emotional disregulation. I've definitely
| experienced that myself.
| dageshi wrote:
| I wish something like that would work for me. I would
| immediately begin to analyse what counts as a task. I'd
| set myself tasks, realise they're much more difficult
| than I thought they were and realise there's no way for
| me to complete this task and also hit my 25 goal.
|
| Then I'd get frustrated with myself and probably go surf
| reddit for the rest of the day.
|
| No system of any type has worked for me consistently.
| Shugarl wrote:
| I also tend to overanalyze things, but books like "Atomic
| Habits" and "The Slight Edge" were really helpful. It
| made realize that there's no point to try to properly
| define what a task is, as what I can do at any given day
| depends on my physical and mental state.
|
| How I perform when I have a bad day is completely
| different from my performance on a good day. Something
| that's a task today might not be considered like one
| tomorrow.
|
| There'll be days where I'll only do 25 small things then
| call it a day, and that's okay.
| taeric wrote:
| I feel you on this. I have found that no system lasts for
| me. I have also found that any system can help to get me
| going. Such that now I try not to use anything to plan
| his things will end, but only how I will begin them.
|
| Similar problems hit me with exercise. About the only
| system I have there is too obligate myself to finish
| something. For example, if I walk the dog a mile out, I
| have to walk the mile in, as well. Bike to work? I have
| to bike home now.
| webmaven wrote:
| _> I wish something like that would work for me. I would
| immediately begin to analyse what counts as a task. I 'd
| set myself tasks, realise they're much more difficult
| than I thought they were and realise there's no way for
| me to complete this task and also hit my 25 goal._
|
| Can you permit yourself to subdivide those tasks that
| turn out to be more difficult?
| taeric wrote:
| Subdividing in total doesn't work for me. Unless it is
| something I already know how to do. Identifying the next
| thing works ok.
| webmaven wrote:
| So, if something is taking longer because you're
| identifying previously unanticipated subtasks, does doing
| the yak-shaving count toward your count of tasks, or not?
| intricatedetail wrote:
| Any sort of table, plan or a roadmap makes me more
| depressed, because I cannot stick to it and that
| amplifies feeling of guilt. Best results I had when my
| plan was to do just one thing, even if it was only one
| line of code throughout the day and even doing nothing at
| all I had coded as doing resting. I had incredible
| progress with this approach.
| pope_meat wrote:
| this is so relatable. it takes so much effort to commit
| to any sort of plan in the first place, and then life
| circumstances happen and the plan has to change, and I'm
| left completely defeated by that development. this sucks.
| [deleted]
| dazc wrote:
| Is it possible for you to have something already planned
| the previous day?
| phobosanomaly wrote:
| I've had panic attacks during loosely-structured periods in
| my life where sitting in the shower after waking up in the
| morning and having to decide _what to do_ with that day was
| absolutely overwhelming. Sometimes when you have a lot going
| on and you 're under a lot of stress there's a lot of
| pressure associated with deciding how best to allocate your
| time.
|
| In contrast, I find a relative peace at 3am, since it's
| merely a continuation of what I had been doing earlier that
| day. I'm in a groove, and there's no major decisions to make
| regarding my resource allocation.
|
| Waking up is absolutely one of my least favorite parts of the
| day. It comes with a tremendous burden, especially when
| living alone and not having a fixed schedule or a boss.
| tarsinge wrote:
| I'm glad if you feel better know. It's interesting to know
| oneself because I have exactly the opposite experience. The
| more the day pass the more I am stressed, with sometimes
| panic attacks before sleep. I feel refreshed in the
| morning, the best part of the day for me. The exception is
| when I have a fixed schedule, a boss (also a long commute
| and a job I don't like), then sure I don't like waking up,
| because I know exactly what the day will be without
| surprise and it's shitty.
| phobosanomaly wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what is it that gets you before you go
| to sleep? What is running through your mind when you
| experience the panic attack? (I mean, not specifics, but
| in a general sense.)
| tarsinge wrote:
| I think it's general anxiety from the accumulated
| "thinking fatigue" during the day. There is a correlation
| with periods where I lacked a clear plan and spent too
| much time of the day in my thought planning the future.
| The process at sleep then is something like I feel tense
| -> I become hypersensible -> I notice each heartbeat
| accelerating -> maybe something is wrong -> ... Sometimes
| it was more sudden like waking up panicked in the middle
| of the night. Meditation helped because now I notice when
| I loose myself too much in my thought. The effect is not
| immediate but it makes a difference at the end of the
| day.
| tgv wrote:
| I can't help thinking that Scott Alexander has no clue what
| he's talking about, or more more benevolently, is writing
| quasi-poetic nonsense. Which is bad for someone with that
| many followers.
|
| I can give another off-the-cuff alternative: sleep
| deprivation reduces self-awareness, and thus self-report of
| depressed feelings. It might be that at this point the
| "brain" is more susceptible to treatment, but that's an
| entirely different matter.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _I can 't help thinking that Scott Alexander has no clue
| what he's talking about, or more more benevolently, is
| writing quasi-poetic nonsense. Which is bad for someone
| with that many followers._
|
| Note how you haven't pointed to a single thing that's bad
| with his post, but nonetheless managed to sling several
| condescending accusations (has no clue, quasi-poetic,
| nonsense) at him...
|
| And all that for a point where he doesn't even pretend to
| give any specific explanation or causual relationship or
| anything, just wants recap with a description of the
| outward appeareance of the phenomenon, precisely to show
| that we have no clue about it yet:
|
| "It looks like sleep is somehow renewing these people's
| depressions. As if depression is caused by some injury
| during sleep, heals part of the way during an average day
| (or all the way during an extra-long day of sleep
| deprivation) and then the same injury gets re-inflicted
| during sleep the next night".
|
| In TFA this is not an explanation of what happens, but an
| "it looks as if somehow" to highlight exactly the current
| lack of an explanation, an explicitly presented as such.
| starpilot wrote:
| Scott's explanation at least makes sense with a causal
| chain of reasoning. "Self-awareness" is more a
| philosophical concept that has no psychiatric meaning, sort
| of like like "fairness" in economics. "It's all placebo
| here!" sounds lazy and like a cheap shot.
| hellbannedguy wrote:
| I knew a Psyc. nurse years ago, and she said they prevent
| certain depressed patients from sleeping. I knew her 17
| years ago, and she was a nurse since the 80's.
|
| She said it was for the patients whom were brought in
| because they just tried to kill themself's, or told
| admittance they wanted to die.
|
| I had the idiotic idea I could cure my dysthymia (Minor
| depression) by sleep deprivation, and it didn't work at
| all.
| bawolff wrote:
| If you're going to say someone is talking nonsense, maybe
| back it up with specific reasons how and why. (Not
| necccesarily saying he isn't, just without specifics we
| might as well just be calling people names)
| Smithalicious wrote:
| Scott is a practicing psychiatrist (now with his own
| clinic!) and is very well-read on depression specifically
| herbst wrote:
| I dont know this guy. But his idea definitly works for me.
| The effect lasts longer than a day so i would argue its not
| the sleep deprevation itself
| webmaven wrote:
| _> I dont know this guy. But his idea definitly works for
| me. The effect lasts longer than a day so i would argue
| its not the sleep deprevation itself_
|
| It is generally accepted that the negative effects of
| sleep deprivation last longer than a day too. If you are
| sleep deprived you can't 'catch up' by sleeping in for a
| night or two (for example on the weekend).
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| fwiw I've used it on and off as a last resort and it saved
| my life.
|
| The first few times I happened to do it was not because I
| was aware of the link (20 years ago nobody wrote about it).
| It was by accident because I've stayed up so late that dawn
| surprised me during a night of insomnia. So it made more
| sense to just power through the day with coffee rather than
| mess up my sleep pattern. It certainly works for me like
| some kind of reset.
| mckirk wrote:
| He's a psychiatrist and generally researches everything he
| writes about quite thoroughly, so I'd be surprised if he
| had no clue what he's talking about in this case.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| That might play a role, but sleep deprivation is also a
| trigger for hypomanic or even manic episodes in bipolar
| patients. There's something about sleep deprivation that
| alters mood in certain mental disorders.
| hnick wrote:
| Interesting, I've noticed for a while if I have a late
| night the next day I'll often be extremely energetic and
| more social than normal. The crash comes the day after.
| andai wrote:
| Based on my experience I figure the "reasoning" behind this
| mechanism is that if my anxiety is bad enough to be keeping
| me awake, I clearly need more energy to deal with my
| problems (and, graciously, it is provided).
| pixel_tracing wrote:
| Seriously if you have clinical depression go get actual clinical
| help, like medication. It saved my life.
| thelastestate wrote:
| What's to stop someone conducting safe, ethical trials into the
| random 'forbiddens' such as magic mushrooms in a far off country?
| Deal with their FDA system?
| herbst wrote:
| Because far of country still has laws :/ but yeah mushies
| definitly hold a key that could help many people. Starting with
| migraines where for some nothing else helps, bit mushies do
| redmorphium wrote:
| In the US, the only controlled clinical setting I know of that
| performs wake therapy (in the form of "triple chronotherapy") to
| treat depression is in Chicago:
| http://www.chicagochronotherapy.com/protocol.html
| dang wrote:
| Discussed at the time:
|
| _The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16557500 - March 2018 (155
| comments)
| endisneigh wrote:
| A long time ago I used to play World of Warcraft for days at a
| time taking naps every 30 minutes or so every 4 hours. Needless
| to say I was tired as hell.
|
| Interestingly though, my mood was excellent - and not from
| playing the game. It was almost as if the fact I had been awake
| for so long itself is what made me happy.
| rl3 wrote:
| Despite the article's title, its subtitle qualifies it as a
| possible treatment for _severe_ depression.
|
| Ideally under supervision, at that. Near the very end:
|
| > _In the case of wake therapy, Benedetti cautions that it isn't
| something people should try to administer to themselves at home.
| Particularly for anyone who has bipolar disorder, there's a risk
| of it triggering a switch into mania - although in his
| experience, the risk is smaller than that posed by taking
| antidepressants. Keeping yourself awake overnight is also
| difficult, and some patients temporarily slip back into
| depression or enter a mixed mood state, which can be dangerous.
| "I want to be there to speak about it to them when it happens,"
| Benedetti says. Mixed states often precede suicide attempts._
|
| Sleep deprivation is nothing to fuck around with. If you're
| emotionally unstable, it'll usually make that worse.
| codethief wrote:
| > Sleep deprivation is nothing to fuck around with. If you're
| emotionally unstable, it'll usually make that worse.
|
| Exactly. My experience has been exactly the opposite of
| lessening depressive tendencies.
| x86ARMsRace wrote:
| It can also worsen any other symptoms -- sometimes the
| depression itself too. For example, people who experience
| anxious depression may end in a much worse situation as a
| result of sleep deprivation.
|
| This study always needs to be qualified with "your mileage
| may vary".
| GordonS wrote:
| Same for me. If I spend the whole next day exhausted after
| sleep deprivation, my emotional state feels really fragile,
| my decision making is impaired, and everything just feels
| harder.
| jariel wrote:
| Often, after 24 hours of being awake, I've noticed a weird
| euphoria on he second morning day. Intellectually quite useless,
| but nevertheless a kind of bliss. I've always associated it with
| a kind of 'ignorance = bliss' related to the total inability to
| mentally linger on the issues of the day. But the types of
| 'issues of the day' for people who are depressed may be the
| problem.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| It's an interesting thought. Excessive rumination is generally
| pretty bad for your state of mind. Maybe with sleep
| deprivation, you don't have the spare brainpower to spend
| ruminating.
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