[HN Gopher] Miss a payment? Good luck moving that car (2014)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Miss a payment? Good luck moving that car (2014)
        
       Author : ColinWright
       Score  : 48 points
       Date   : 2021-04-03 16:56 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (dealbook.nytimes.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (dealbook.nytimes.com)
        
       | benjohnson wrote:
       | If you do know someone who is broke and needs transportation you
       | can do them a huge favor - gide them through the process and help
       | them pick a reliable car at a fair price. Having someone along to
       | be by their side will help keep the pretators at bay.
        
         | zachshefska wrote:
         | Yes! The current car buying process takes advantage of the
         | consumer. This is entirely why I started working on
         | https://yourautoadvocate.com/ a year ago.
        
         | advisedwang wrote:
         | Are you suggesting that all a broke person needs to solve their
         | transport situation is better advice? That's kind of
         | patronizing.
         | 
         | They are broke - affording it is the hard part. If you really
         | want to help co-sign on financing, lend them a vehicle, offer
         | to car-pool etc
        
           | throwawayboise wrote:
           | If you're going to co-sign a loan, just plan on buying the
           | person the car as a gift.
        
           | lmilcin wrote:
           | Being broke is usually a symptom, frequently result of
           | problems with making sound financial decisions.
           | 
           | You can help somebody by explaining they will be happier with
           | a used car rather than a new one.
           | 
           | Is that patronizing? Maybe. But if everybody keeps to their
           | own business we are just perpetuating the problem.
        
           | benjohnson wrote:
           | Most everybody needs a buddy to help them with the car buying
           | process to navigate car dealership tricks. Dealerships are
           | well oiled machined designed to extract money and they have
           | years of practice.
           | 
           | Poor people need even more help give they have no room for
           | error.
        
         | geoduck14 wrote:
         | >help them pick a reliable car at a fair price
         | 
         | I work for an auto loan lender. If you want a fair price, I
         | recommend CarMax. They are fair. You won't get a great deal
         | there, but you also won't get a bad deal there. It is right
         | down the middle.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | (2014)
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Added above. Thanks!
        
       | burlesona wrote:
       | The shameful fact is that we have not only enthusiastically
       | embraced - but required by force of law - that Americans cannot
       | participate in the economy without a private vehicle maintained
       | in good repair.
       | 
       | Perhaps in the 50's you could say "well there are plenty of pre-
       | car places you can still live and work," but first we spent the
       | 60's bulldozing those places to put in freeways and parking lots,
       | then most of them hollowed out as the jobs moved to the suburbs,
       | and now, strangely enough, they're revitalizing as lifestyle
       | areas that are very expensive to live in.
       | 
       | This, more than anything, has cut off the bottom rungs of the
       | economic ladder. We're not going to fix any of the major societal
       | issues in the US until we fix our suburban development pattern.
       | We need to quit spreading dense splatters of suburban homes
       | butter thin between massive gaps of poorly utilized land (aka
       | "leapfrog development" made possible only because subdivisions
       | get to externalize their infrastructure and public service
       | costs), stop hyper regulating development so that it takes years
       | of professional work to get a simple building permit, and design
       | for safe pedestrian access as a first priority, so that car
       | ownership becomes optional rather than mandatory.
       | 
       | When it comes to housing and development we live in a state
       | planned economy and it's failing us just as surely as all the
       | others.
        
         | cpursley wrote:
         | This is one of the main reasons I won't be moving back to the
         | US if I if I can avoid it. Moving to a place built for humans
         | is absolutely life changing.
         | 
         | Whenever people where I now live ask what America is like I
         | explain that you can't even purchase food without first owning
         | a car (with a few exceptions).
        
           | modularform123 wrote:
           | I hope you and your family can get the Covid-19 vaccine soon,
           | in whatever great place it is you are living in!
        
           | devmunchies wrote:
           | > Moving to a place built for humans
           | 
           | It's a factor of whether the city was built before the
           | industrial revolution. Humans will always default to the easy
           | path.
           | 
           | I think it's the exact same paradigm for software bloat. By
           | having higher powered computers, we build websites without
           | needing to optimize, so now you need a high powered computer
           | to run them.
           | 
           | Building a city without cars is like developing a video game
           | 30 years ago, much more deliberate use of limited resources.
        
           | juancb wrote:
           | There may be an untapped market there waiting to be
           | exploited.
        
           | mensetmanusman wrote:
           | When our family lived in Boston we did not own a vehicle.
           | 
           | Especially now with everyone using post pandemic delivery, it
           | will get even easier to not have to own a vehicle.
        
             | nja wrote:
             | Boston is certainly in a better position than a lot of the
             | country. However, even in Boston, being able to be car-free
             | is not always feasible for lower-income folks, especially
             | as development relentlessly moves forward.
             | 
             | As an example: the neighborhood I've lived in for a decade
             | used to be a relatively low-income neighborhood. Rents were
             | low in the old buildings, most folks walked to their jobs
             | in the medical area, and there was a cheap Shaws grocery
             | store for food, as well as several fast food places and
             | family-run storefronts. Public transit (light rail, buses,
             | and commuter rail) was accessible close by.
             | 
             | Then a development company bought nearly all of the parcels
             | along the main road and built a wall of mid-to-high-rises.
             | Accordingly, all rent in the area went way up, forcing most
             | of the lower-income folks out of even the older, shittier
             | tenement buildings. A Target went in, and the Shaws
             | rebranded as the more expensive Star Market (and will soon
             | close so they can build a new Whole-Foods-type expensive
             | megastore). All of the small storefronts closed, and now
             | the area is nearly entirely high-end shopping outlets and
             | expensive gastro-restaurants. They shut down the bus lines
             | running through the neighborhood because all the rich
             | people who moved in have cars (Porsches and Lambos now rev
             | through the neighborhood at all hours) and bus ridership
             | was down.
             | 
             | Where did all of the folks -- and their families --
             | previously able to afford the area go? To areas of Boston
             | where the rent is still cheap. Many of these places are
             | nowhere near good public transit (e.g. if someone moved
             | from this area of Boston to Dorchester, then took transit
             | to their same job, it would require 3-4 transfers on packed
             | buses and trains). So now these people are forced to get a
             | car as well.
             | 
             | The worst part of all of this is: who wins here? Not the
             | people forced to leave their neighborhood, not the people
             | who suddenly need to buy a car, not the people who can no
             | longer afford to run a restaurant in the area... not even
             | the rich people living in the expensive high-rises (or not
             | living in -- many are vacant "investments" from overseas).
             | The developers win. They pumped as much money as they could
             | out of the neighborhood, and then moved on to their next
             | target, leaving a less livable city in their wake.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | > not even the rich people living in the expensive high-
               | rises (or not living in -- many are vacant "investments"
               | from overseas).
               | 
               | Why don't these people win?
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | I'd just add that Boston also just doesn't have a car-
               | free culture like Manhattan in particular has.
               | 
               | So even if you're a middle-class/upper-middle-class tech
               | worker who wants to live in the city:
               | 
               | 1.) Many of the tech jobs are in the suburbs and you
               | mostly need a car to get to them. (There are today more
               | jobs in the city again but many aren't.)
               | 
               | 2.) Many of your friends probably live in transit
               | unfriendly suburbs so you'll probably find it hard to get
               | together with them unless they come in to meet you.
               | 
               | Of course, people adapt to what is easier for them and
               | just behave accordingly.
        
             | hn_user82179 wrote:
             | Yep, Boston frequently tops lists of cities with the best
             | public transportation in the country. Really wish more
             | cities had that infrastructure.
        
               | lotsofpulp wrote:
               | The underlying requirement for a city to have good public
               | transportation is to have more dense populations, which
               | is almost always only found in older parts of cities. All
               | the newer parts of any city in the previous decades were
               | zoned to be less dense, so you're not going to see
               | comprehensive public transportation any of the cities
               | that have experienced recent growth. It's simply
               | untenable under a certain amount of density, not to
               | mention that most people prefer cars if they have the
               | option to use them.
        
           | alostpuppy wrote:
           | I live in a nice semi dense area and our one walkable food
           | outlet closed last year. We technically live in a food
           | desert.
        
           | axaxs wrote:
           | May I ask where you live now, and also in what ways it's
           | built for humans? Just intrigued.
        
           | polishdude20 wrote:
           | Where do you live now?
        
         | colinmhayes wrote:
         | There are a few places where you don't need a car. I didn't
         | have a car in NYC and now I still don't in Chicago. Of course
         | if you can't afford a car you probably can't afford to move.
        
           | burlesona wrote:
           | Nor is New York or Chicago a good place to move if you're
           | very poor, as the housing and cost of living are difficult to
           | manage.
        
           | plorkyeran wrote:
           | Ironically places where you have happily live without a car
           | tend to be more expensive to live in. It's not just the
           | moving costs; if you can't afford a car you probably also
           | can't afford the rent in a place where you don't need a car.
        
             | Swenrekcah wrote:
             | Probably that has a lot to do with the fact (or my opinion)
             | that places where you can live car-free are also much nicer
             | places to live, thus more sought after. Although I base
             | that mostly on myself I'm sure there is some research into
             | it.
        
               | cnasc wrote:
               | You would have to pay me to live in New York again
        
               | dan-robertson wrote:
               | I think this is a reason a lot of people live in New
               | York...
        
               | stevewodil wrote:
               | Sometimes people are like, 'Why'd you move back to New
               | York?' And I was like, 'I don't know, I just really love
               | the ambience and there's such a charm to the city, you
               | know?
        
       | 908B64B197 wrote:
       | I'm curious about the economics of that market segment.
       | 
       | How often can the seller repossess a car successfully (I assume
       | these devices makes it way easier to do so). And how often is the
       | vehicle in a good enough condition that it can be resold?
       | Repossession has a cost, but how many months are required to be
       | able to repossess and turn a profit by then reselling the car?
        
         | throwawayboise wrote:
         | They don't rely on reposession to make a profit. That threat is
         | just a stick to keep the loan payments coming in. They make
         | their profit by selling the car for a hefty markup in the first
         | place, and with usurious interest rates.
         | 
         | So they take a $1,000 car from auction, sell it for $3,500 or
         | $4,000 at 18% interest, with a loan structured so that all the
         | principal is paid at the end, it doesn't take long for them to
         | be in the black even if they have to repo it.
        
           | hakfoo wrote:
           | Actually, from what I understand, the Buy-Here-Pay-Here car
           | dealership model frequently revolves around the assumption
           | the car will be reposessed and resold several times.
           | 
           | https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-fi-buyhere-payhere/
        
             | effingwewt wrote:
             | It's worse. They typically charge the vehicle price as the
             | down payment, so anything else paid is profit. Every time
             | they repo a car they get this money paid to them _again_.
             | On top of that, they will lie about the  'buy here pay
             | here' and will sell of your auto loan to a loan shark
             | company, who will then try to add more fees/interest/anti-
             | consumer clauses after the fact.
             | 
             | I dealt with this myself once, and will never do so again.
             | Also, they tried to penalize me for paying early to get out
             | from under them, and refused to send my title until I
             | threatened to sue with all my voice recordings of every
             | phone call. They tried to say I could only pay advance
             | payments, not pay down my principal, and tried to extend my
             | contract length _two years_ after purchasing my loan
             | without my consent or knowledge, despite having a written
             | contract forbidding the car lot from selling my loan.
        
               | FooBarBizBazz wrote:
               | > They typically charge the vehicle price as the down
               | payment, so anything else paid is profit.
               | 
               | Wait. If the borrower could afford that down payment, and
               | that's what the car cost originally, then why couldn't
               | they have just bought a similar car outright from a
               | similar seller? Is this purely a matter of ignorance
               | being exploited?
        
               | hakfoo wrote:
               | I'd suspect some of it is access and perception.
               | 
               | You might be able to find a similar car at the same price
               | in a private-party deal, but it would entail skimming
               | newspapers/websites and then finding transportation to
               | each seller's home to see one vehicle. In contrast, you
               | can probably get a bus to a scummy dealership located on
               | a main commercial street and see dozens of lemons at
               | once.
               | 
               | I also suspect there's a perception of legitimacy from a
               | dealer-- that a private-sale vehicle could be faulty, but
               | one being sold commercially can be assumed roadworthy.
        
             | geoduck14 wrote:
             | BHPH model is NOT the same as getting a subprime loan from
             | a bank or credit union. Very few cars are sold via BHPH.
             | 
             | Also, many states require that repossessed cars are sold at
             | auction, and the proceeds go towards the balance owed (aka
             | the poor person who borrowed the money).
             | 
             | Usery laws are complex, and it is difficult to know why the
             | lady in this article got a loan for 20%. That is unfair and
             | I feel bad for her.
        
           | Black101 wrote:
           | > So they take a $1,000 car from auction
           | 
           | and non-dealers aren't allowed to buy cars at these auctions
        
             | sokoloff wrote:
             | That's state-by-state. In some states you can. In states
             | where you can't, there are many people with the
             | broker/dealer creds who will give you access for a
             | percentage or flat-fee (typically $300-500) markup.
        
         | rtkwe wrote:
         | > And how often is the vehicle in a good enough condition that
         | it can be resold?
         | 
         | Kind of an implicit assumption in that question that just
         | because the owner is missing payments and has bad credit
         | they're dirty or the car is beat to hell. Any ways there's
         | markets for cars in every shape between pristine and just on
         | the usable side of totaled.
         | 
         | > how many months are required to be able to repossess and turn
         | a profit by then reselling the car?
         | 
         | They can sell it to an intermediary or send it to auction
         | pretty quickly.
        
           | geoduck14 wrote:
           | >They can sell it to an intermediary or send it to auction
           | pretty quickly.
           | 
           | In many cases, the court requires it goes to auction to
           | demonstrate it was sold "at market value". Lenders don't
           | really like to repossess cars - we are in the business of
           | putting people IN to cars, not taking them OUT.
        
       | Bostonian wrote:
       | "But before they can drive off the lot, many subprime borrowers
       | like Ms. Bolender must have their car outfitted with a so-called
       | starter interrupt device, which allows lenders to remotely
       | disable the ignition."
       | 
       | Such technology enables subprime borrowers to get car loans at
       | interest rates that are lower than they would be otherwise,
       | because it reduces delinquency rates.
        
         | ByteJockey wrote:
         | I doubt it reduces delinquency rates that much. If you don't
         | have the money, you don't have the money.
         | 
         | But I bet it makes it much more likely for the lender to be
         | able to get the car back in the event of a default (and
         | probably cheaper to recover). This probably does result in them
         | extending credit to people they otherwise wouldn't.
        
           | oh_sigh wrote:
           | From the article: "A leading device maker, PassTime of
           | Littleton, Colo., says its technology has reduced late
           | payments to roughly 7 percent from nearly 29 percent."
           | 
           | It's rarely the case that people don't have the money. It's
           | that they have the money, but they'd rather spend it on other
           | things, like food, or entertainment.
        
             | mrstone wrote:
             | Funny you'd lump food in with entertainment.
        
               | zepto wrote:
               | How did they 'lump them in'? They both seem like things
               | someone would prefer to spend money on than a car
               | payment.
        
             | goldcd wrote:
             | Yes - none of this is magically making the borrower have
             | more money. The sole purpose of this device is to ensure
             | that from an amount of money that doesn't cover their
             | outgoings, the car payment has a higher priority and is
             | more likely to be paid.
        
           | jonnycomputer wrote:
           | Having worked repo for a summer, I believe this. We'd drive
           | hundreds of miles in a day, only to find the vehicles not
           | where we thought they'd be.
        
         | klyrs wrote:
         | So you're parked in a spot that becomes a towaway zone at 7am,
         | but you can't start your car, can't get to work. You're fired
         | with cause, ineligable for unemployment, and your car is
         | impounded. In this situation, the lender is _more likely_ to
         | get paid? I think not
        
           | true_religion wrote:
           | In the event that you are that close to being unable to pay
           | your debt, the lender would probably just want the car you
           | are borrowing back so they can use it themselves and/or lend
           | it to someone else.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | jonnycomputer wrote:
         | Two assertions made without data backing it up:
         | 
         | (1) that this reduces the effective delinquency rate (2) that a
         | reduced delinquency rate is being passed to subprime borrowers
         | as savings in reduced interest rates.
         | 
         | (1) depends on whether unavoidable, but temporary, delinquency
         | will not have knock-on effects that will exacerbate the
         | likelihood of default, such as losing one's job because you're
         | unable to get to work. (2) I believe that many subprime lenders
         | are counting on being able to repossess the car; it's part of
         | their business model. But I might be wrong about that. (3) in a
         | functioning market, lower delinquency rates might translate
         | into reduce interest rates, but it is not clear to me that it
         | is a functional market, rather than one built explicitly on
         | exploiting subprime borrowers with limited avenues for between
         | lender competition for subprime borrowers.
        
           | SilasX wrote:
           | That's the great part about markets: If you think the terms
           | are unfair or overestimate the default risk, you can offer
           | car loans at the same or lower rates without such odious
           | restrictions! (Or invest in someone who does &c.)
           | 
           | If no one's willing to do it, then maybe they're actually
           | calibrating the risk correctly?
        
             | jonnycomputer wrote:
             | Or there are market frictions that limit the ability of
             | subprime borrowers from actually shopping around.
        
               | SilasX wrote:
               | That would be a hard case to make:
               | https://www.google.com/search?q=auto+loan
        
           | rufus_foreman wrote:
           | >> that a reduced delinquency rate is being passed to
           | subprime borrowers as savings in reduced interest rates
           | 
           | What are the barriers to entry for subprime auto lending?
           | Those lenders are ubiquitous in the inner city, so I don't
           | think there is much of a barrier to entry, maybe I'm missing
           | something.
           | 
           | If there is no barrier to entry, and reduced delinquency
           | rates aren't being used to reduce interest rates, then that
           | is a problem poor people have that I could help solve by
           | getting rich. In my experience, those type of problems do not
           | exist.
           | 
           | For the first assertion, there are some numbers in the
           | article, but beyond that, why would lenders pay for this if
           | it didn't reduce delinquency rates? It would be easy to run
           | the numbers to see if it was worth the price, even a mom and
           | pop shop could A/B test it.
        
             | jonnycomputer wrote:
             | Having a low barrier to entry is not sufficient for there
             | to be real competition between those in the market. Why?
             | Well, for one thing, subprime borrowers buying cars are
             | probably limited in their ability to shop around. If you
             | cannot do price comparison, then there really is no effect
             | on prices of competition. Firms will compete in other ways,
             | for example, by making themselves more accessible, or
             | limiting access to competitors. Look, the likely thing that
             | is happening is they get a ride to the nearest local
             | dealership, and take whatever loan package they're
             | offering. And if they are doing that, its probably some
             | shady corner dealership anyway.
        
               | rufus_foreman wrote:
               | >> Having a low barrier to entry is not sufficient for
               | there to be real competition between those in the market.
               | Why? Well, for one thing, subprime borrowers buying cars
               | are probably limited in their ability to shop around
               | 
               | Everybody's got a phone. And everybody can ask around,
               | places get reputations. If you offer significantly better
               | rates than the competition, you will get a good
               | reputation.
               | 
               | >> Look, the likely thing that is happening is they get a
               | ride to the nearest local dealership, and take whatever
               | loan package they're offering
               | 
               | That's not what I did when I was poor, and it isn't what
               | the other poor people I knew did.
        
         | arrosenberg wrote:
         | In that case, it seems like there is a social problem with a
         | system that creates "subprime borrowers" that both need a car
         | to survive, and can only get one under feudal conditions.
        
           | oh_sigh wrote:
           | It can be a social problem, it can also be an individual
           | problem. A lot of people want a nicer car than they can
           | afford. I make well into 6 figures as a programmer, and drive
           | a year 2000 Civic which cost me ~4 days of my salary. A
           | friend of mine makes 40k/yr as a bike mechanic and drives a
           | 2017 Civic and it cost him ~6 months of his salary. In a more
           | rational world our car ownership would be swapped.
        
             | Xcelerate wrote:
             | Isn't there also a pretty big difference in crash safety
             | though between the 2000 and 2017 Civic? I'd rather work a
             | few more days for a higher chance of surviving a crash.
        
               | throwawayboise wrote:
               | Somewhat, but by 2000 cars were pretty safe. At least,
               | some were. You could look for brands that were leading
               | the way on safety, such as Mercedes or Volvo.
        
             | arrosenberg wrote:
             | Not really an individual problem, even then. Usury is one
             | of the most legislated-on topics in history, and allowing
             | solutions like the one described in the article is a
             | societal choice. Your anecdote aside, most of the people
             | borrowing on these terms are doing it out of necessity, and
             | the ones who aren't should be told No.
        
         | effingwewt wrote:
         | Not even close, the rates are _far_ more onerous, and often
         | require bi-weekly payments which also doubles the chance for
         | late /missed payments and thus increases the lot's chance of
         | re-selling the vehicle again.
         | 
         | The lenders, as ever, are the only ones benefitting.
        
         | nulbyte wrote:
         | I assure you, disabling one's transportation and, thus,
         | reducing one's likelihood to arrive to work on time does not
         | reduce delinquency. Neither are subprime lenders interested in
         | reducing delinquency; rather, they rationalize such abhorrent
         | practices that increase the likelihood of delinquency because
         | it generates more revenue.
        
           | rsync wrote:
           | "I assure you, disabling one's transportation and, thus,
           | reducing one's likelihood to arrive to work on time does not
           | reduce delinquency."
           | 
           | You are correct, of course, for any one particular borrower.
           | 
           | However, I suspect the _aggregate_ delinquencies drop as
           | _marginal_ "delinquents", aware that their car is going to
           | cease functioning, adjust their behaviors throughout the
           | month, etc., to make absolutely sure the car payment is made.
           | 
           | I'm not defending the practice, I merely suggest that your
           | (correct) observation about individual borrowers doesn't
           | negate a net-positive result for the lender.
        
           | polishdude20 wrote:
           | Yeah you better believe that if I can't pay off my car and
           | you disable it. It'll make it an order of magnitude more
           | difficult to now pay for the car. People don't miss payments
           | because they have the money but choose not to pay. They miss
           | payments because they can't afford them. Preventing job
           | access is a quick ticket to poverty town.
        
             | sokoloff wrote:
             | That's all the more reason these devices are effective. If
             | the electric company, gas company, and landlord will take
             | _months_ to take action if you don't pay them, but the car
             | lender will take action on the 15th of the month, the car
             | lender gets first crack at the money you do have.
             | 
             | It's harsh, but I suspect that's the actual calculated
             | business model here.
        
           | goldcd wrote:
           | Sorry, how is their provoking of delinquency in any way more
           | profitable than getting that 29% APR on an overpriced piece
           | of junk, hitting their bank account each month?
        
           | modularform123 wrote:
           | I assure you there are many liberals who won't pay despite
           | having money in the bank, unless they are forced to do so. It
           | is literally a human right to them.
        
       | mmcconnell1618 wrote:
       | The lender's risk is significantly reduced by having constant GPS
       | access and the ability to disable the vehicle. I'm sure they've
       | reduced the super high interest rates they were charging these
       | borrowers with subprime credit scores, correct? Nope. Same high
       | interest rates.
        
         | SilasX wrote:
         | If someone else charged the same interest rates but didn't have
         | these provisions, they would go there.
         | 
         | These loans are taken out by people that would have to pay
         | still-higher rates.
        
       | sys_64738 wrote:
       | At least there are documented ways to disable these devices. A
       | lender with a lien on a 16yo mini-van is just so wrong. Putting a
       | snooping device and starter disabler on it are criminal.
        
         | sokoloff wrote:
         | Don't forget that these customers don't have a better option,
         | because of credit, down payment, or other factors.
         | 
         | Taking away someone's best option doesn't help them. Giving
         | them a better option does, but I never see people who are
         | arguing against these practices rushing out to make these loans
         | on favorable terms.
        
       | neonate wrote:
       | https://archive.is/uzKTp
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Discussed at the time:
       | 
       |  _Miss a Payment? Good Luck Moving That Car_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8365129 - Sept 2014 (80
       | comments)
        
       | nja wrote:
       | > In Austin, Tex., a large subprime lender used a device to track
       | down and repossess the car of a woman who had fled to a shelter
       | to escape her abusive husband [ ... ] The move to the shelter
       | violated a clause in her auto loan contract that restricted her
       | from driving outside a four-county radius, and that prompted the
       | lender to send a tow truck to take back the vehicle. If the
       | lender could so easily locate the client, Ms. Kleinpeter said,
       | what was stopping her husband?
       | 
       | I can't stop re-reading "a clause in her auto loan contract that
       | restricted her from driving outside a four-county radius". Is
       | that a normal thing in auto loans? Restricting free movement? How
       | is that even legal?
        
         | globular-toast wrote:
         | Why would it be illegal? It's their car. They set the rules.
        
           | lmilcin wrote:
           | It is not their car. The car is a collateral. There is a
           | difference.
           | 
           | Also, they don't "set" the rules. The rules are set in a
           | contract and contract is bilateral.
        
           | lotsofpulp wrote:
           | I don't understand why you are downvoted.
           | 
           | The options were for this lender to not lend this person a
           | car, or lend this person a car with certain conditions
           | reducing the lender's risk to acceptable levels. Car sales
           | aren't a monopolized business, and there's plenty of
           | competition, so I also don't see any evidence of collusion on
           | the side of the sellers.
        
         | geoduck14 wrote:
         | Hi! I work for a large auto loan lender. I have NEVER heard of
         | a practice limiting where you can drive your car. I would
         | imagine it would be bad for business (e.g., here's a car, you
         | can't use it that much, have fun!).
         | 
         | Personally, I would protest VERY loud if I found my company was
         | doing this.
         | 
         | Also, I'm mostly certain we do have trackers on many of our
         | cars, and I would imagine the data is transmitted securely so
         | husbands can't use that signal.
        
           | TomK32 wrote:
           | > ... I would imagine the data is transmitted securely so
           | husbands can't use that signal.
           | 
           | It won't matter if the data is transmitted (and stored)
           | securely, a husband concerned about his wife will have enough
           | data about the auto contract to use some social engineering
           | and get the car's location from the lender.
        
         | TylerE wrote:
         | Normal?
         | 
         | No.
         | 
         | But the kind of "buy here pay here" places that use these
         | devices are sellers of last resort. Basically the vehicle
         | lending equivalent of a payday lender.
        
         | dfadsadsf wrote:
         | My guess would be that it limits where you can live (park car
         | overnight) but not where you can drive. For example car
         | insurance price is different for different cities - the same
         | could be the case for subprime loan.
        
           | bbarnett wrote:
           | I believe so.
           | 
           | I had the same thing, with a rent to own furniture place, 27
           | years ago.
           | 
           | I moved from one side of the country to the other, to open a
           | new corporate office, but the move was hasty. 2 weeks from
           | decision to hitting the road.
           | 
           | I just packed up everything, not thinking about the TV I
           | rented-to-own. When it came time to pay, I had also switched
           | banks, so I called them.
           | 
           | After I explained that I moved, and wanted to setup a new
           | debit-from-account, the woman on the other end lambasted me,
           | on and on, explaining breach of contract, that I stole the
           | TV, I'm a thief, this sort of thing. Obviously my mistake for
           | not reading the contract, and they were local only, so they
           | had the same sort of geo-only clause, but at the same time I
           | called them! No late payments, completely current, yet they
           | unloaded on me like I was 6 months late and had planned some
           | sort of elaborate theft.
           | 
           | Fed up with the abuse, I asked her to just get over it, and
           | tell me where to send new payments. Nope, I was apparently a
           | thief, an ass, a liar, on and on again.
           | 
           | I cut that short, asked again how to send payment, or do they
           | not want anything? Again the yelling. I shouted goodbye and
           | hung up.
           | 
           | I had given her my new address and phone number yet never
           | heard from them again.
           | 
           | With these sorts in this industry, I am not surprised they
           | just towed.
        
         | FooBarBizBazz wrote:
         | > The move to the shelter violated a clause in her auto loan
         | contract that restricted her from driving outside a four-county
         | radius, and that prompted the lender to send a tow truck to
         | take back the vehicle.
         | 
         | The lender should have spoken to her and adjusted the allowed
         | region rather than escalating immediately to a towtruck.
         | Ideally she would have had the presence of mind to call her
         | lender, but some understanding should be shown.
         | 
         | > If the lender could so easily locate the client, Ms.
         | Kleinpeter said, what was stopping her husband?
         | 
         | This makes no sense. Her husband doesn't work for the auto
         | lender. Why would he have access to that? It feels
         | dishonest/manipulative to use this argument.
        
           | paxys wrote:
           | The woman escaped an abusive relationship and found safety in
           | a shelter. It isn't a question of "presence of mind", calling
           | your auto loan agent would be the absolute last priority for
           | everyone in her shoes.
        
           | imoverclocked wrote:
           | I can easily see a scenario where an abusive husband leans on
           | some guy/gal working in a car dealership to get information.
           | In theory the information _shouldn't_ flow across that border
           | but in practice it does.
        
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