[HN Gopher] On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
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On Norbert Wiener's Relationship with Bertrand Russell
Author : jorgenveisdal
Score : 81 points
Date : 2021-03-29 09:47 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (cantorsparadise.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (cantorsparadise.substack.com)
| hilbert42 wrote:
| If you are interested in or have done some philosophy then you'll
| find this article fascinating and informative. It covers aspects
| of the strained relationship between Bertrand Russell and Norbert
| Wiener that I can't ever remember reading about in other short
| biographies of the pre-WWI Cambridge philosophers and
| mathematicians. Similarly, the somewhat awkward and prickly
| relationship been Russell and Wittgenstein is mentioned.
|
| The article conveys a sense of the intellectual milieu in and
| around Cambridge in 1913. That must have been a remarkable time
| to have been at Cambridge and majored in philosophy and or
| mathematics with the likes of Russell, Wiener, Wittgenstein, G.E.
| Moore, G.H. Hardy J.E. Littlewood, A.N. Whitehead all there at
| the same time--even Srinivasa Ramanujan was there in 1913!
|
| I'd have loved to have been around this intellectual tour de
| force when I was studying those subjects. Ah, well, I'll just
| have to be content with the fact that a number of my textbooks
| were written by four of them not to mention other notables who
| they'd influenced.
| wombatmobile wrote:
| > I'd have loved to have been around this intellectual tour de
| force when I was studying those subjects
|
| You get to do something they could only dream of back then -
| fast forward the wheels of history 100 years past two world
| wars to the age of science fiction where machines can think and
| speak, planet earth grows food for 8 billion people, and the
| moon is littered with human footprints from a generation ago.
|
| Those philosophers would love nothing more than to spend an
| hour with you listening to your descriptions and thoughts about
| the world you live in.
| [deleted]
| dluan wrote:
| Paul Halmos also famously did not get along well with Norbert
| Wiener, apparently they would argue a lot.
| ArtWomb wrote:
| Specifically Trinity College, Cambridge. From Newton to Byron.
| And down to the Cambridge Spies and Bloomsbury Group.
|
| Although they still do the Math Tripos, the Greats program in
| Ancient Greek and Latin seems to have befallen modern times and
| is sadly diminished. One wonders what we are losing ;)
| quietbritishjim wrote:
| I think that what you call the "Greats" programme would today
| be called the "Classics", which still seems to be a Tripos
| option [1]. It requires knowledge of Latin but an extra
| preliminary year is available to teach it to those without
| the background. It also includes "intensive ancient Greek
| programme".
|
| [1]
| https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/classics
| sriram_malhar wrote:
| Surprising there is no mention of Frank Ramsey, who was around at
| the same time, and was the only one considered equal to
| Wittgenstein.
| nabla9 wrote:
| Great article.
|
| Interesting that Wiener's genius (and his suicidal depression)
| may have been partly result of his fathers educational
| experiment.
| techer wrote:
| Unrelated but this is Norbert's account of meeting Albert
| Einstein:
| http://web.archive.org/web/20150426074612/https://libraries....
| AndyMcConachie wrote:
| Renewed war in Europe, he predicted, would pass the "leadership
| of civilization...to America and ultimately to Asia."
|
| Said Mr. Einstein in 1925. He was right.
| ggm wrote:
| Norbert Weiner is a standout of modern computing/mathematics
| because he took a principled stand on the consequences of his
| research, and decided to move fields because he didn't want his
| work to directly relate to military applications.
|
| There are very few people of his standing in science at that
| time, and I believe since, with the fortitude to resist
| temptation to take the high paying gig despite the moral
| implications. Joseph Rotblat comes to mind.
| anon_tor_12345 wrote:
| Lol there are people that do this every day. Either they take a
| principled stand against tech and turn down lucrative research
| roles in industry, or, for example, they turn down funding from
| the military; I switched PhD programs last year because I did
| not want to work on object detection for the army. In doing so
| I forewent a very nice fellowship. I don't say this because I
| want a pat on the back but just to demonstrate that it's very
| common.
| ggm wrote:
| ... of his standing.
| brobdingnagians wrote:
| Part of the issue might be that those who choose the more
| moral course don't get the large government grants and
| military funding, which means that they don't get well
| known, not because they aren't just as talented but because
| of lack of funds. So scientists of standing may self select
| for the kind of person who will do anything for money and
| fame. If society had more funding for principled causes, or
| celebrated those with them, we might see more scientists
| with standing (i.e. well-known) who also stuck to their
| principles.
| anon_tor_12345 wrote:
| i'm not sure why you think it's harder for someone "of his
| standing" to turn down opportunities. the marginal utility
| for him is much lower than for grad students that have to
| choose between RAships and TAships or fresh PhDs that have
| to choose between risky tenure track grinds and lucrative
| industry roles.
| ggm wrote:
| I don't think its hard. I just think they don't. I think
| it's really sad how few senior scientists with standing
| do this. They seem to lack the fortitude to do something,
| which isn't that hard when it comes down to it.
|
| I don't blame fresh starts who go for the lucrative
| roles, they need the money. Once you're established,
| finding a hill to stand on and choosing to stand on it
| seems to get .. less likely?
|
| You made the call, good for you. I admire that. I wish
| more people with established status did, and said so.
|
| Am I missing something? is there a lot of news out there
| about CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang)
| about things? I don't see it, and thats what I'm
| responding to here. Norbert Weiner was apex in his field.
| He looked at what was going to happen with it, and
| decided to stop feeding the beast. Where's the equivalent
| behavour from his peer-set in todays world?
| anon_tor_12345 wrote:
| >CompSci and AI profs sticking it to the man (faang)
| about things
|
| there are very frequently articles/gossip on
| quittings/firings of famous researchers. timnit gebru is
| a recent example.
|
| >Norbert Weiner was apex in his field.
|
| i wouldn't be so quick to lionize him - he was also not
| very kind to walter pitts and possibly contributed to his
| suicide
|
| http://nautil.us/issue/21/information/the-man-who-tried-
| to-r...
| jpfr wrote:
| > he was also not very kind to walter pitts and possibly
| contributed to his suicide
|
| Wiener's wife told him a lie about Pitts. She invented an
| indecency involving Wiender's daugher. Both Wiener and
| Pitts never found out the truth about who ended their
| relationship.
| pessimizer wrote:
| And how do we know that it was a lie? Did she admit it
| later? If she did, what were the reasons to believe her
| recantation over her accusation? Did the daughter say it
| was a lie later in life?
|
| All I know from the article is that Wiener, a very smart
| person, thought the accusation was credible enough at the
| time to completely cut off people who were very important
| to him personally and intellectually. I also know that
| those people accused were very heavy drinkers.
|
| It's safer to say we don't know anything about the
| veracity of the claim unless the reference offered some
| sort of material alibi.
| boygobbo wrote:
| And let's not forget that Bertrand Russell was also a very
| principled man - he was imprisoned for his pacifism during
| World War I and for his involvement in anti-nuclear campaigning
| in 1961 (aged 89!).
| bmitc wrote:
| Do you have a source for this? I have been reading a fair
| amount on information theory, cybernetics, and Wiener lately,
| and I haven't seen this mentioned, at least not yet.
|
| In fact, the sources I've read said he was quite enthusiastic
| about helping out for both WWI and WWII.
|
| For example:
|
| https://www.cantorsparadise.com/the-absent-minded-father-of-...
| Guthur wrote:
| Was it a moral stance or the fact he had a great detestation of
| human suffering, as alluded to in the article. Someone of that
| brilliance would quite easily be able to draw the link between
| their work and future suffering.
|
| It's possible this is a moral stance but I'm not so sure, it
| some what feels like a pain reaction. I must admit I've had the
| same thought about my own actions, I hate to see people suffer
| too the point where it has a pain like sensation, If I've been
| the cause of it I try to rectified quickly, is this morality?
| ycombinete wrote:
| I think you need to define what you consider a "moral stance"
| to be, before one can answer whether or not it was one.
| boygobbo wrote:
| Well, we often talk about morality in terms of our emotional
| and physical response - e.g. revulsion ('disgusting
| behaviour'), fear ('recoiling in horror') and pain ('pangs of
| conscience'), etc. It's also pretty difficult to determine
| whether Wiener's detestation of suffering was the cause of
| his moral stance or vice versa.
|
| I would argue that whatever the associated reaction/cause,
| the outcome is a moral stance as it influenced his decisions
| based on the consequences his actions might have on other
| people. OTOH, if Wiener felt bad about other people's
| suffering but it didn't affect his choices, it wouldn't be a
| moral stance.
| simiones wrote:
| There is an exploration of this train of thought in Frank
| Herbert's novel "Whipping Star", where a criminal condemned
| to a Clockwork-Orange-style conditioning to abhor pain and
| suffering nevertheless finds a way to commit murder by
| exploiting a truly alien being with no human-understandable
| concept of suffering.
|
| Still, I think in non sci-fi scenarios, an abhorrence for
| suffering and moral behavior are very much linked, if not
| perfectly equal.
| IndySun wrote:
| I found this article another gem from the numerous gems
| concerning Russell. I feel I must point out, as a fully paid up
| 'fan' of Russell's, and because people here have mentioned
| 'principles', he misstepped on race, perhaps (kindly) an
| indication of the sheer engrained blanket racism still prevalent
| in the world throughout the 20th century.
|
| For those evermore curious...
|
| https://studsterkel.wfmt.com/programs/interview-bertrand-rus...
| simiones wrote:
| Can you point out a specific example of racism in that
| interview? I haven't looked through it entirely, but searching
| for some common terms that I expect someone to use when showing
| some racism ("race", "racism", "black", "intelligence",
| "asian", "brown") I couldn't find anything (he does mention
| Black men once, but only in a hypothetical reaction he expects
| the general public to have, one that he criticizes).
|
| The interview is relatively long though, and searching for
| those words is not a sufficient indication, so I am curious.
| IndySun wrote:
| No contentious race or eugenic topics are brought up in that
| interview. It was just for the curious...
|
| I have looked, and I have yet to find serious recorded
| mentions of Russell on these topics, only transcripts,
| letters, etc..
| mellosouls wrote:
| You misspoke then?
|
| It would be useful to clarify as you've essentially just
| accused him of racism and its not clear that you
| acknowledge that accusation was incorrect or at least
| unevidenced here.
| IndySun wrote:
| Not at all. Anyone with a passing interest would be
| aware. As I stated, as the gist of the early posts
| mentioned Russell being a man of principles, it is always
| worth reminding ourselves no one is perfect.
|
| NB I now see the wording of my post could be read as
| 'here is a post concerning race'. But I should have
| separated the first line from the rest of the post; the
| 'gem' I was referring to was the original post.
| bolzano wrote:
| Dude, you basically called Russell a racist and when you
| got called out on it, you didn't retract.
|
| Please have the decency to retract or provide some kind
| of source for your claims. I don't recall anything I've
| read of Russell showing any element of racism or sympathy
| towards it.
| IndySun wrote:
| Russell's eugenics notes are very well known.
|
| Read my posts again, what you are accusing me of is
| utterly missing - I'm insulted, however I will not be
| making any threats to those ignorant of history.
| beansontoast wrote:
| And no mention of the unreciprocated romantic interest, which to
| me is the most interesting facet of their relationship.
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