[HN Gopher] Shitty Software Kills People
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Shitty Software Kills People
        
       Author : ingve
       Score  : 126 points
       Date   : 2021-03-27 09:09 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (val.demar.in)
 (TXT) w3m dump (val.demar.in)
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | aaron695 wrote:
       | Shitty Software Saves Lives
       | 
       | They even make this case
       | 
       | Not software - "you have to download a bloody pdf. Then you have
       | to print it. You fill it up with a pen...."
       | 
       | BBC - "Excel: Why using Microsoft's tool caused Covid-19 results
       | to be lost"
       | 
       | But it worked. Excel is brilliant software with decades of work,
       | it was the (Shitty) scripts that 'failed' ignoring BBC Excel
       | headlines.
       | 
       | Except they got the scripts running, made a mistake, fixed it and
       | moved on pretty quick.
        
         | Veen wrote:
         | I recently read the biography of Jeremy Heywood, who was the
         | UK's Cabinet Secretary--essentially the leader of the civil
         | service and the person in charge of making sure the government
         | functions. Excel got several mentions, and the book gives the
         | impression that our government, including the Treasury, more or
         | less runs on spreadsheets.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | This is true of most if not all of the business world. It
           | runs on spreadsheets, apps that imitate spreadsheets, or
           | hand-built spreadsheet equivalents.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | The other thing that happens with Excel is it starts out really
         | being the right MVP for some task. But that task grows and
         | grows over time and Excel keeps right on being used well past
         | the point a database should have been implemented instead.
        
       | ectopod wrote:
       | I was really impressed with the UK vaccine booking system. A text
       | message from the doctor directed me to an online booking form.
       | This was an incredibly simple html form-based thing. The first
       | screen asks for your DOB (to check you're the right person). The
       | second has a short list with about five appointments to choose
       | from (a couple of different days, a few different times). Select
       | one, click OK, done. A text message confirmed the appointment. It
       | was simple and functional. It didn't even require javascript.
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | You can't make a general statement about the system in the US,
         | because many (all?) states have their own systems for mass
         | vaccination sites, the big pharmacy chains have their systems,
         | and presumably hospitals have their own systems.
         | 
         | The Massachusetts system seems pretty good with easy pre-
         | registration and choice of ways to be contacted when you're up
         | for an appointment. Problem with some of the other systems is
         | you pretty much have to keep checking. I've been tempted to
         | write some code.
        
       | IG_Semmelweiss wrote:
       | Worse - you may not know the software has this power over you.
       | 
       | I remember a specially egregious case that one of the rental
       | companies was guilty of: automated criminality
       | 
       | The software in question automated the reporting of grand theft
       | auto to authorities. The rental company used it to streamline
       | reporting of rentals to police.
       | 
       | The problem: false positives. The software would report drivers
       | as criminals, when in fact cars had been exchanged midrental due
       | to car failures etc, and the original car hadnt been returned
       | under the normal workflow, which the software failed to account
       | for.
       | 
       | Then that police report would chase innocent people for literal
       | years, coming up to unsuspecting customers during routine
       | speeding stops.
       | 
       | I always wonder whether contributor names to closed sourced
       | software should always be transparent.
       | 
       | Excellent engineers should be able to take credit on their work
       | and there would be more skin in the game. Particularly for
       | employers that get suspect resources from to solve for budget
       | constrains artificially imposed by business managers with no
       | stake in the product functionality, to critical software
       | processes like SREs etc
        
         | bengale wrote:
         | Makes me think of this scandal in the UK:
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_(IT_system)
        
           | NikolaNovak wrote:
           | Geebus. That's a terrifying read and a 15 year nightmare! I
           | take it post office is a private entity in UK?
           | 
           | The last paragraph where the institution disband the
           | oversight and destroys results day before report is due is
           | infuriating :O
        
         | mmglr wrote:
         | > I always wonder whether contributor names to closed sourced
         | software should always be transparent.
         | 
         | Are you implying that the developers that created this back
         | office tool should be liable for the false police reports?
         | 
         | If so then then counterpoint based on having made back office
         | apps: the individual contributor (i.e. developer) may either
         | (1) have little to no say in what the app is doing as they are
         | simply implementing the requirements as provided and/or (2)
         | have no knowledge of how it might fail (e.g. when the app is
         | integrated as part of larger business processes)
        
           | HenryBemis wrote:
           | The developer's actions are 'best effort'. Didn't the company
           | run extensive tests to cover all possible scenarios?
           | 
           | If you build a system that orders coffee capsules, you want
           | to make sure you don't order x100. But when you report
           | 'thieves' to the authorities you open yourself up for plenty
           | of lawsuits.. imagine the poor people being harassed by the
           | authorities for some crime they didn't do, and will take
           | plenty of time/money/effort to clean-up, all because company
           | XYZ does not have a thorough UAT..
        
         | hedora wrote:
         | The false positive in this case is filing a false police
         | report. That's illegal in the US, and probably exposes the
         | rental car company to civil liabilities (generally, contracts
         | that allow one party to commit crimes are unenforceable, so I'd
         | hope that extends to eliminating the binding arbitration
         | clause, though I am not a lawyer).
         | 
         | The police should pursue it cases like this, and arrest the
         | decision maker in the organization that caused this to happen.
         | If it's been happening repeatedly, the person's sentence should
         | be increased accordingly.
        
           | spockz wrote:
           | Be that as it may, it will do you very little good when you
           | get pulled over for something routine and then you get
           | arrested or worse for something you don't even have the
           | faintest idea about.
           | 
           | Which is why bad software can hurt people a lot.
        
           | m463 wrote:
           | I would imagine that normal people don't have as much legal
           | experience or representation as a large corporation (that has
           | experience in exactly this).
           | 
           | I had a friend - who happened to be pretty well-versed AND
           | interested in legal matters - who was sued by someone for
           | some car accident. The thing was, the identification came
           | from a license plate, and he lived hundreds of miles away and
           | drove a completely different car.
           | 
           | He finally got in touch with the attorney - who didn't care -
           | and made him care. Took time and effort. Would have cost a
           | normal person a pretty penny.
        
           | gameswithgo wrote:
           | haha, police pursuing white collar crime! too busy choking
           | unlicensed street vendors to death
        
         | skybrian wrote:
         | Open source projects disclaim all warranties because the
         | authors have no control over how the software might be used. It
         | seems like there are similar issues for code written for a
         | business? It would be foolish to take liability when you can't
         | stop the business from continuing to use the software and
         | causing more damage.
        
         | novok wrote:
         | In that case although, you don't know which system or team is
         | responsible for the 'cop reporting' part. I could be making a
         | very innocent rental state tracking system, and then someone
         | else just accesses the same table without my knowledge and
         | makes a criminal reporting system after the fact.
         | 
         | After a certain point, we recognize as a society that just
         | because you make chairs, your not at fault if someone then
         | takes a chair you made and then bashes someone on the head with
         | a chair. It's the basher's fault, not yours.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | bryanrasmussen wrote:
           | >you don't know which system or team is responsible for the
           | 'cop reporting' part.
           | 
           | you also don't know if they have any information given
           | regarding possible workflow deviations, or if it was made
           | when they had one workflow and workflow was changed without
           | paying for changing the system. If that were the case it
           | would be an example of shitty management gets people harassed
           | by the police and potentially killed because getting harassed
           | by the police at the wrong moment, or looking like the wrong
           | person, in the wrong country can get you killed.
        
       | qrbLPHiKpiux wrote:
       | The title should be People KILL People because people write code.
        
         | c-cube wrote:
         | Sounds like "guns don't kill people"
        
         | ironmagma wrote:
         | It's really a distributed phenomenon. Crappy engineering
         | managers kill people through their crappy managing. And same
         | with moral-less CEOs. To some extent, the engineers have the
         | blame because they agree to write the code. But ultimately the
         | problem exists with.. the managers? the board? the CEO? the
         | customers who enable them all? It's all of the above. This is
         | why it's on all of us to have a moral system and enforce it.
        
       | darkerside wrote:
       | It's actually incredible how quickly effective software has
       | become an expected function of a proper government. States,
       | cities, and counties are now handling vehicle registration,
       | education, utilities and more over the internet. The paperless
       | future (at least in urban and suburban US) is truly here.
        
         | EamonnMR wrote:
         | What scares me is the obsession with supporting old desktop
         | browsers and ignoring the majority of people who are using
         | phones and might not have access to a desktop.
        
           | 127 wrote:
           | Some inertia is probably good considering how much Google
           | tries to turn the Internet into the Googlenet.
        
           | young_unixer wrote:
           | I'm scared about the opposite: governments releasing only
           | Android and iOS apps and no web version for their services.
           | 
           | At least the web is an open standard.
        
             | jfk13 wrote:
             | It's not just governments: one of the (major) banks I deal
             | with supports many types of account -- such as mortgages --
             | only via their apps, not on the web. I think that's
             | appalling.
        
               | Master_Odin wrote:
               | Similar thing happened to me with Itau in Brazil in that
               | their website was barely functional (with the last month
               | I was a customer I couldn't even login in) and had to do
               | everything over the cellphone app. Super annoying as I
               | wasn't a native speaker of the language and desperately
               | wanted to use my computer for ease of use with
               | translation software.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | There's a danger here - the edges and the unserved. Charities
         | have sprung up to help people apply for jobs now that they're
         | all online - can't apply online if you don't even have a phone
         | let alone internet access.
         | 
         | Online processes and APIs are great but we have to have backups
         | and failsafes.
        
           | fastball wrote:
           | Not really though. Libraries have internet access and are
           | free to use.
           | 
           | The failsafe is "find ways to give everyone internet access",
           | which I think we've already done.
           | 
           | Libraries, public wifi APs, cheap 4G, dirt cheap internet
           | capable devices, etc.
        
             | aimor wrote:
             | As a part of the pandemic libraries in my area are closed.
             | This failsafe has also failed. I think you're right that
             | there should be a variety of redundant options to better
             | cover people.
        
               | hedora wrote:
               | Around here, libraries lend out 4g access points and
               | chrome books, fwiw.
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | Companies can get away with serving 90% of the market or
             | less, but places like the DMV and other government
             | divisions have to serve 100% of the people - including
             | those who even when presented with a library computer are
             | unable to utilize it effectively.
             | 
             | Foisting support costs off to libraries is another example
             | of the tragedy of the commons.
        
               | fastball wrote:
               | What about people who don't know how to read? Are they
               | served by all government services?
               | 
               | No idea how you think this is a tragedy of the commons
               | situation. It is definitely better to digitize everything
               | and serve the 0.1% (certainly not anywhere close to 10%)
               | with additional support that helps them _use the digital
               | service_ , rather than having non-digital fallbacks for
               | _significantly_ more expense.
        
               | kfarr wrote:
               | Yeah I agree libraries are actually the perfect solution
               | for this, not a tragedy. I'm impressed recently with the
               | relevance of libraries doing things exactly like this --
               | helping the masses access knowledge -- despite the shift
               | away from print.
        
               | jfk13 wrote:
               | Does every remote rural hamlet have a library? How far is
               | it reasonable to expect someone to travel in order to
               | access this solution?
        
               | fastball wrote:
               | If you're so rural you can't access a library, how were
               | you using a pre-internet service in the first place?
               | 
               | Internet services becomes _more_ of a win if you 're
               | remote, not less so, espescially with things like
               | Starlink coming online.
        
               | kevingadd wrote:
               | Mail service and telephone service are effectively
               | universal, so a job application via the mail or the phone
               | is within reach of basically everyone. Having a handset
               | and a phone line is also much cheaper than owning even a
               | second-hand smartphone (at least a decent cellular plan
               | with data isn't very expensive anymore). A deaf person
               | could handle applying by phone via a relay service
               | (though these days they probably can't because relay
               | services are abused by malicious parties and everyone
               | hangs up on them). Paper applications were probably very
               | tough for blind people though, I'm not sure what the
               | solution was... the internet is likely better there, if
               | you're lucky and the job application website is actually
               | accessible.
               | 
               | I lived in a very rural area for about 50% of my
               | childhood - we had no fire department, we relied on a
               | well for water, our town's official population was in the
               | hundreds, etc. If we wanted to get on the internet we had
               | to do it at around 38400 and random packets would get
               | corrupted because the lines were old and low-quality (I
               | wrote my own parity tool in VB6 so that I could download
               | a file 3-4 times and produce a not-corrupted version).
               | Despite that, if I wanted to call someone up on the phone
               | to speak with them or send a letter, that was just as
               | easy and effective as it was when I lived in the suburbs.
               | 
               | When we eventually managed to get slow DSL years later it
               | was INCREDIBLY expensive because in rural areas if you're
               | lucky enough to have service at all the monopolist who
               | offers it knows they can charge as much as they want.
        
               | jfk13 wrote:
               | Where I live, at least, mailboxes are a lot more
               | widespread than libraries. To send a form by mail, I just
               | have to walk a couple hundred yards.
        
               | darkerside wrote:
               | A library is not a building. What if it's cheaper to make
               | it so people can call and make an appointment with a
               | librarian, who will come to your house and assist you
               | with your government service needs?
        
           | hansvm wrote:
           | > if you don't even have a phone
           | 
           | If you don't have a sufficiently expensive phone. In an
           | effort to prevent easily creating cheap fake accounts
           | (presumably -- I don't actually know), phone numbers
           | associated with low-end android devices are routinely banned
           | from social media platforms, online banks, and any number of
           | other organizations.
        
             | easton wrote:
             | How can a phone number be associated with a certain type of
             | device? AT&T doesn't seem to know what kind of phone I
             | have.
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | I know that republic wireless's "voip" number can't be
               | texted by some services.
        
               | hansvm wrote:
               | I doubt it's directly associated with a certain type of
               | device but rather a certain carrier or block of numbers
               | associated with cheap devices (e.g., tracfones).
               | Regardless of the mechanism, the effect is real.
        
       | bsaul wrote:
       | covid crisis is really a wake up call for a lot of people in many
       | countries regarding the efficiency of their administration in
       | moments of crisis.
       | 
       | I've very often told myself during the past months, witnessing
       | (my) french government : we're really fortunate nobody is
       | declaring war to us, because we would be run over in a few days,
       | judging by the time it take for any administration to get things
       | done properly.
        
       | grogenaut wrote:
       | I just spent 6 hours volunteering as an usher at a pharmacy doing
       | about 1k vaccinations in a day. The number of people over 60 who
       | didn't understand the difference between a text message and an
       | email was around 30% (out of a sample size of 600 during my
       | shift).
       | 
       | About 10% of the people who showed didn't have smartphones or
       | text, 4 people did everything only with phone calls. I wonder how
       | many people who only did phone calls were NOT able to get vaccine
       | slots?
       | 
       | Working with my aging mother, modern UIs are very complicated.
       | Ever changing gestures, hidden menus, differences between
       | machines, passwords, multi-accounts, etc. Heck my mom can't
       | figure out the volume buttons on her iphone so she holds face
       | time to her ear to hear. Heck even the default apps are hard on
       | her. iMessage keeps getting moved to the home page and SMS to the
       | 2nd page. So she sees the blue bubble and uses that to message
       | us, even tho we are sending SMS. She needs to use the green
       | bubble from the second page.
       | 
       | This is not to mention how bad all of these apps or websites are
       | and the loss of a person to call to get clarification for
       | anything not written on a website.
       | 
       | 95% of my time yesterday was spent just answering nuances to the
       | basic questions. For instance we were giving Moderna to the first
       | dose people. Every time I announced that to the line, half of the
       | 2nd dose people panicked and said "I need Pfizer".
       | 
       | For me as a programmer, keeping it all in my head was easy, it's
       | just a 8 branch 3 level deep if/else statement.
       | 
       | For aging people with phones the information became inaccessible.
       | 
       | Those with paper printouts of everything were able to just breeze
       | through and paper doesn't reboot, loose battery, or forget, and
       | you can easily hand paper to other people.
       | 
       | The rate of vaccinations actually crushed the brand new system in
       | place (which was there because the old system melted at 300
       | people a day). So paper was great. They just did all the data in
       | put at the end of the day.
       | 
       | I'm actually quite worried with our current hodgepodge of low
       | quality software we're greatly isolating older people, or people
       | who are not using tech heavily every day.
       | 
       | And this is not just for crappy government software. I saw as
       | many people unable to use their iphone and android basic
       | software. With my mom, netflix, why does it even have a password
       | she has to remember? Device authorization between her roku and a
       | laptop is confounding, they're 2 totally different devices. It's
       | basically impossible.
        
         | paultopia wrote:
         | _Working with my aging mother, modern UIs are very complicated.
         | Ever changing gestures, hidden menus, differences between
         | machines, passwords, multi-accounts, etc._
         | 
         | I'm 41, and, you know, the sort of person who reads HN, i.e.,
         | can find my way around a command line, sling enough code to get
         | out of a paper bag, etc. And I can't make sense out of many
         | modern UIs.
         | 
         | Half of them are just forests of unlabeled icons. Like, ok,
         | what is the thing that looks like a squirrel making out with a
         | lawnmower supposed to do?
         | 
         | The other half are menus inside menus inside menus inside menus
         | where finding the functionality you want is damn near
         | impossible.
         | 
         | No government or corporate webform gives you all the
         | information you need up front---no company discloses the full
         | price until you're about to put the credit card in, no
         | government tells you what documents you need until you're ten
         | pages into the application.
         | 
         | And don't even get me started on fashionable startups. I just
         | joined an organization that used (past tense, I helped kill it)
         | Basecamp to organize communications, and that thing has a
         | totally different arbitrary nonlinear ontology from every other
         | preexisting human communication technology. What the hell is a
         | campfire and why can't I find my pings and what were the
         | designers _thinking_ to just randomly drop all of this extra
         | cognitive load on people 's heads like a pigeon with diarrhea?
         | UI designers, please, just stop!
        
           | midasuni wrote:
           | I know some companies won't tell you the full price until the
           | end, but if I walk into a shop and it costs 9.99 on the
           | shelf, that's how much it costs at the checkout. Same with
           | prices on the menu at a restaurant or on a day out.
           | 
           | The number of transactions where the full price is shown
           | upfront vastly outweighs the number of hidden extra
           | transactions
        
           | dijksterhuis wrote:
           | I'm 30 odd and I struggle with all this!
           | 
           |  _Shiny and new_ is not necessarily better than _easy and
           | works_.
           | 
           | UI designers are mad, mad I tell you!
        
         | analog31 wrote:
         | Quite agreed.
         | 
         | >>>> The number of people over 60 who didn't understand the
         | difference between a text message and an email was around 30%
         | (out of a sample size of 600 during my shift).
         | 
         | What is the difference, in plain terms?
         | 
         | It's easy to understand the technical difference if you
         | remember that it's based on a historical quirk of cell phone
         | technology and economics from 20+ years ago, that is probably
         | not fundamental or useful today.
         | 
         | But try explaining it to a non techie: It's a different app,
         | and happens to be more or less responsive depending on where
         | you are located relative to the antenna towers, so the best
         | explanation is just that you have to check for messages in two
         | different ways on your phone, and not trust to receive a
         | message immediately after it was sent.
         | 
         | Actually understanding the difference is as important as
         | knowing why dialing a phone is called "dialing." For the rest
         | of us, just make it work already.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | And that's if you're in the US. If you're in some (many?)
           | other countries, you may not use SMS--also for historical
           | reasons--and instead use an app.
           | 
           | Also why are some messages green and some blue? Well, one in
           | the phone company's native service and the other is iMessage.
           | What's the difference? Well, green may cost you more
           | depending on your phone plan. Why? ...
        
           | grogenaut wrote:
           | So we were doing 2 sets of people. Those over 60 who were on
           | their second shot (because they were over 60), and under 60
           | essential and ag workers. The over 60 folks were all early
           | AM. So over 60 was in this case a known separator.
           | 
           | The over 60 folks didn't care why text or email, they wanted
           | to do what they needed to do to get their shots. The system
           | we were using was setup for text. It was a tech choice. To
           | them tho, it's a phone number, and they never text, that's
           | what email is for. Why should they have emails and texts and
           | phone calls and because it's hippa, an in web app email
           | system to keep their data secure.
           | 
           | For my mom I'm referring to apple's pushing of iMessage over
           | SMS... she doesn't comprehend the difference and apple's push
           | to get people into their ecosystem is making it impossible to
           | communicate with my mom without carrying around an iphone all
           | day just to respond to her.
        
             | Sevii wrote:
             | It is insane to me the amount of pain email not being
             | secure by default causes across the economy.
             | 
             | All these apps implementing in-webapp messaging systems
             | that suck, then sending me an email with no information
             | other than that I got a message in a system I look at maybe
             | once per year.
        
             | hedora wrote:
             | Her iphone is probably misconfigured. She probably has two
             | contacts for you, one email-only, and one telephone only.
             | If you merge the contacts, it should start defaulting to
             | sms.
        
           | stefan_ wrote:
           | Do you think these people are also surprised that you can buy
           | groceries in five different places, none of which are called
           | "groceries"?
           | 
           | Tech people overstating "tech quirks" rarely elicits anything
           | worthwhile.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | It's a tale as old as time - and it's not just "old people"
         | either. The number of young brilliant people who seem to have a
         | mental block around computers is larger than you might think.
         | I've had people call and ask why they can't login and when they
         | share screen the webpage has a huge graphic telling them to
         | approve the notification on their phone (TFA). They don't even
         | read it.
         | 
         | And it's not their fault! People have only a limited capacity
         | for things. Imagine if your car changed how it worked every
         | week or so when you sat down to drive - driving would be nearly
         | impossible.
         | 
         | https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/12/12
        
         | mietek wrote:
         | _> Heck even the default apps are hard on her. iMessage keeps
         | getting moved to the home page and SMS to the 2nd page. So she
         | sees the blue bubble and uses that to message us, even tho we
         | are sending SMS. She needs to use the green bubble from the
         | second page._
         | 
         | I agree with your overall point, but I am puzzled by this
         | detail. There is no separate app for sending SMS on iOS. The
         | Messages app handles both the iMessage protocol and SMS, has a
         | green bubble icon, and by default, appears in the four-item
         | dock at the bottom of every page of the home screen. Also, app
         | icons don't move between pages on their own.
        
           | kiwijamo wrote:
           | I am also puzzled. Apple's iMessage/SMS app (there is only
           | one app that does both as you say) will only send iMessage
           | messages to numbers that have iMessage enabled (I know there
           | are some edge cases but these are typically only for those
           | who have recently migrated away from Apple). iMessage will
           | always default to SMS (and is usually the only option) for
           | numbers that have no iMessage enabled. Not an Apple fanboy
           | but how they have set up iMessage/SMS actually is pretty
           | good.
        
           | hedora wrote:
           | It sounds like she's using signal and iMessage/sms maybe?
           | Signal has a blue bubble app icon, and iMessage has a green
           | one.
        
       | incrudible wrote:
       | Bureaucracy kills people. Software can only do so much when some
       | regulation mandates that a document needs to be printed, signed
       | and brought on premise.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | Multiple options are the answer - not some modern web app.
         | 
         | I'm sure we can find people who have died simply because they
         | can't navigate a webpage or an app.
         | 
         | As techies we assume having an app for something is the way to
         | go - but there are many who do not have access and being able
         | to fill out a printed form and submit it by hand is a better
         | solution for them.
        
           | EamonnMR wrote:
           | Agree strongly with multiple options. Especially because if
           | Web Form becomes the only option, it'll still be the only
           | option in 25 years when everything else is via brain
           | interface.
        
         | madsbuch wrote:
         | This is very dependent on jurisdiction.
         | 
         | I haven't had a piece of governmental paper in my hands in my
         | adult life (just over a decade). However, in Denmark we are
         | very dependent on a working public IT infrastructure. After
         | all, we are one of the countries that registers the most about
         | their citizens.
        
         | gumby wrote:
         | > Bureaucracy kills people.
         | 
         | Well, sure. But bureaucracy saves people too, and probably the
         | balance is overwhelmingly to the second. It's just hard to see
         | things when they work like road safety regulations, food safety
         | regulations, building codes and the like.
         | 
         | And when things work, few people complain about them; those who
         | do may be ones who suffer a local inconvenience or lose cost-
         | free access to a negative externality.
        
       | periheli0n wrote:
       | If it's any consolation--the situation is not much better in
       | Germany.
        
       | raverbashing wrote:
       | If it's a downloadable PDF and then you have to go to a queue I
       | assume they'll have the forms on the location to fill it manually
       | 
       | Yes it is stupid, but not everybody can download a PDF
       | 
       | Remember when the NY state comptroller complained about how the
       | process was complex?
       | 
       | If there's one thing that GDPR should have put into people's head
       | is not bothering with data you don't need. But nooo, everybody
       | prefers to keep collecting the same data (either a form or
       | advertisement data) then add another tick box. People's love for
       | bureaucracy is something
       | 
       | (And I also might add, people's love for complaining sometimes
       | it's bigger than their want of solving the problems)
        
       | superjan wrote:
       | I honestly don't see why a paper form is necessarily wrong. Paper
       | records have worked for ages. You can make people e-sign
       | something, but would a 70 year old understand that he did
       | something equivalent to signing? Prefilling would have been nice
       | to have, sure, but not doing that is not killing people.
        
         | xnyan wrote:
         | >I honestly don't see why a paper form is necessarily wrong
         | 
         | Agree, but I also think the point the author is trying to make
         | is correct but maybe unclear - The main goal is to get people
         | the vaccine, period. Everything else that is being done is
         | being done in support of that goal. Not everyone has direct
         | access to a printer, should that be a reason someone should not
         | get vaccinated?
         | 
         | Paper ballots are great for elections, but there's no good
         | reason paper is required to get someone Moderna/Pfizer/AZ/J&J
         | et al.
        
       | readflaggedcomm wrote:
       | The title is at variance with the body, which describes how
       | paperwork is worse than shitty software.
        
       | EamonnMR wrote:
       | Is this a software problem?
       | 
       | > Then you have to print it.
       | 
       | > You fill it up with a pen, trying to remember, find or recover
       | information which you might or might not have access to (but that
       | you know for a fact that it's stored in multiple databases behind
       | some firewall). Then go to a physical location with your little
       | printed form, queue up, and hope for the best.
       | 
       | Sounds more to me like an organizational inflexibility problem.
       | Someone somewhere refused to change the definition of 'signed'
       | and mandated that people print something. Someone decided that
       | they couldn't autofill the form. Someone decided that submissions
       | will only be accepted as physical forms.
       | 
       | This is sort of my hobby horse since I worked at a company that
       | interfaced with healthcare providers that insisted that we accept
       | faxed documents.
        
         | musicale wrote:
         | I think the "software" in question might actually be the
         | operating procedures and policies of the bureaucracy.
         | 
         | Bureaucratic operating procedures are often essentially
         | malicious software that de-prioritizes the needs of ordinary
         | citizens far below the priorities of the organization. An
         | organization may pay some lip service to a mission of service
         | to citizens, but usually the organization's actual, absolute
         | top priorities are self-preservation and expanding its budget,
         | staff, power, and influence. A secondary priority may be
         | reducing fraud and punishing cheaters, even at the expense of
         | honest citizens.
         | 
         | Though sometimes (e.g. California unemployment insurance) you
         | get perverse outcomes where fraudsters are richly rewarded at
         | the expense of honest citizens.
        
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