[HN Gopher] An ancient method that keeps Afghanistan's grapes fr...
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An ancient method that keeps Afghanistan's grapes fresh all winter
Author : CapitalistCartr
Score : 229 points
Date : 2021-03-26 11:56 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.atlasobscura.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.atlasobscura.com)
| firasd wrote:
| I've been wondering about a taxonomy of food preservation
| techniques.
|
| * Sealing (this technique seems to be a type of sealing)
|
| * Fermentation
|
| * Cooling
|
| * Dehydration
|
| * Removing specific elements like sugar etc
|
| I guess it all boils down to preventing germs from thriving
| (although I suppose there are other things that can happen too--
| food going dry or stale)
| samatman wrote:
| A few techniques which involve adding something to the food:
|
| * Salt
|
| * Vinegar
|
| * Alcohol
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Also sugar. For example, fruit preserves.
| hinkley wrote:
| I believe salt counts as dehydrating, although there are
| other forms of curing that don't achieve the same water
| removal as salted meat.
|
| Vinegar and alcohol technically are fermentation, although
| it's true that in some cases primary fermentation happens
| separately and the food is stored in the result. Pickling is
| sort of a grey area.
| adrianmonk wrote:
| Apparently you can also add alcohol as a preservative:
|
| https://preserveandpickle.com/preserving-fruit-alcohol/
| phonypc wrote:
| Salting is often combined with some amount of dehyrdrating
| of the entire food, but e.g. wet brining meat will actually
| add water.
|
| Salt directly dehydrates the microbes themselves through
| osmotic pressure.
| samatman wrote:
| I see a difference between drying something out and salting
| it (or sugaring it) even though both remove moisture, and a
| difference between fermenting something into vinegar and/or
| alcohol, and using those substances to preserve something
| directly, even though, yes, you won't have alcohol nor
| vinegar without fermentation.
|
| Similarities as well! This taxonomy wouldn't be a well-
| formed tree.
| 8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote:
| Yeah the general theme is depriving microorganisms of something
| they need to thrive in the food environment. Like dehydration
| lowers water activity, refrigeration keeps it outside their
| ideal temperature range etc.
|
| Fermentation doesn't really fit with the rest under that model
| though. In that case you're creating a good environment for
| some (halotolerant lactobacillus usually) because _their_
| byproducts will make it too acidic for other things to thrive.
| So that's fundamentally different from just trying to make it
| universally hostile to microorganisms.
|
| Even within a simple technique like "sealing" here it really
| depends on the food itself and probably local factors like
| seasonal humidity and temp swings. A lot of fresh foods if
| sealed in an airtight container can make botulism. I'm pretty
| informed on this subject but I don't know why that doesn't
| happen with the grapes here. Must just not be present on them
| in large amounts, or the natural yeast competes with it, or
| something who knows.
|
| We think of these technologies as simple because they are
| beyond ancient and the actions you take to use them are basic.
| But there is a lot going on biologically and it seems at least
| somewhat understudied so far.
| wazoox wrote:
| You can also keep bunches of grapes fresh for months in an attic
| by plunging the stems in a bottle of water. That's a method that
| has been used for centuries in Europe.
|
| See https://jardinage.lemonde.fr/dossier-2305-conserver-
| raisin-n...
| patrec wrote:
| I wonder how the Korean newspaper in the second photo ended up in
| this Afghan village.
| achow wrote:
| Could be due to Korean construction firms.
| slim wrote:
| maybe it comes from foreign soldiers
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| I think it's the Korea Times. Look closely at the top right
| corner to the left of the page number A31.
|
| https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0674003,-87.8502797,3a,75y,2.
| ..
|
| It probably came from American soldiers
| yongjik wrote:
| It's actually Chosun Ilbo - I searched for the phrases I
| can read, and found the matching article (2019 Oct 14).
| (See the article's title ending with "...anida".)
|
| https://www.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2019/10/14/201910
| 1...
|
| So, almost certainly not from American soldiers.
| OldHand2018 wrote:
| Nice detective work :)
| programmertote wrote:
| Somewhat related - pots made out of the earth/clay are very good
| at keeping the temperature cool. I wish we see more of them being
| used in western countries.
|
| I remember my family in Myanmar storing water in big pots made
| out of clay like this one
| [https://images.app.goo.gl/hG4bDGtn34QhmdxP8]. The water that is
| stored there is super cold and very refreshing for summer use.
| People use similar, but smaller pots for storing drinking water
| in parts of the streets so that anyone can take a sip if they are
| thirsty: https://images.app.goo.gl/hG4bDGtn34QhmdxP8
|
| I wonder if my country, which is now undergoing a brutal military
| coup, still makes such pots these days....
| cedricd wrote:
| Not sure if they make them still today, but I saw those pots
| for sale by the hundreds at a market in Bagan about 10 years
| ago.
| tecleandor wrote:
| In Spain we have the famous "botijo" that's used for keeping
| water cold, and also, for drinking.
|
| Thing is, this only works in dry climate. A friend with several
| Spanish restaurants in Japan brought some botijos with him, and
| being Tokyo very humid in summer, they didn't work at all and
| kept "sweating" water.
| quercus wrote:
| Another preservation technique I've seen is burying the fruit in
| ash.
| kebman wrote:
| I've noticed that when you put a bag of potatoes in the fridge,
| they will still keep far shorter than if you had them in a
| dedicated potato cellar. Likewise, most of the old houses around
| the farmstead I grew up had unheated walk-in pantries next to the
| entrance. Often vegetables keep for far longer in those pantries
| than in the fridge. But of course the fridge beats out storing
| the veggies on the counter every time. Many of those farms also
| had standalone earthen cellars that served as "fridges" during
| the summer, often in conjunction with a small brook flowing with
| cold mountain water, where perishable things such as milk pails
| could be sunk into during warm summer days. Really wish I could
| have something like that in the city lol.
| nicoburns wrote:
| Potatoes will keep for weeks as long as you keep them dark.
| They don't need to be particularly cold. Do people really keep
| potatoes in the fridge?
| numpad0 wrote:
| Lots of people put every food in the home time-freezing
| device called fridge, from tropical fruits to potatoes to jar
| of peanut butter, very few recognize that that's not how
| things work.
| hutzlibu wrote:
| Well, on a general base, the concept that cooling things,
| prevents degrading is quite true. It just not works for
| everything, for certain reasons.
|
| But if you would have a potato only fridge, with low
| humidity, that you never open - I think that would work
| quite well, too.
| volkl48 wrote:
| Peanut butter absolutely works that way. It lasts longer in
| the fridge once opened:
| https://www.nationalpeanutboard.org/wellness/how-long-
| will-t...
|
| Now, most people are likely to use it up before that
| becomes an issue, but it is a food for which the fridge
| applies your "time-slowing" mechanism.
|
| Also, if you buy the natural kind, it keeps the oil from
| separating back out once you've mixed it.
| [deleted]
| marci wrote:
| Is there anything about potatoes that makes it obvious that a
| fridge is not required?
| adrianmonk wrote:
| The product packaging, if you buy them by the bag (instead
| of bulk).
|
| Here's an example from Sam's Club web site:
|
| https://scene7.samsclub.com/is/image/samsclub/0003338353070
| _...
|
| At the bottom right, it says, "Store potatoes in a cool,
| dark, well-ventilated place."
| Symbiote wrote:
| Supermarkets don't keep them in fridges.
| marci wrote:
| In many countries supermarkets don't keep eggs in a
| fridge, whereas in others they do.
|
| Apples can be kept for months in a fridge. Salads don't
| last long outside of one. Supermarkets don't keep them in
| fridges (unless they've been processed).
| phonypc wrote:
| In those countries where supermarkets don't refrigerate
| eggs, they don't need to be refrigerated at home either.
|
| Apples can be kept for months outside a fridge. Depending
| on season and variety, they might be 6 months old before
| they even get to your supermarket.
| marci wrote:
| Only in places where you have cold seasons, and only
| during those, unless you have a cellar/basement, or
| something that can work as a proxy for one, but then you
| need knowledge about what's best stored where anyway.
| 8fGTBjZxBcHq wrote:
| Not in themselves. All of the tubers in culinary use in the
| west are stable for storage in the dark for months but if
| you don't have that cultural knowledge then you'd need
| someone to tell you not to put potatoes in the fridge I
| guess.
| omginternets wrote:
| It's clearly not obvious unless you've been told, but the
| point is that people have grown strangely disconnected from
| food in a "bacon comes from plastic sachets" sort of way.
| asdff wrote:
| The fact you can leave a potato out for two weeks and its
| fine to use?
| marci wrote:
| IF you don't have prior knowledge, you then have to
| either forget to store them in the fridge or make the
| experiment.
|
| And personally, I've had things go bad, and most of the
| times I just think "I'll try to eat that sooner next
| time", without really thinking hard about how long I had
| it.
| brnt wrote:
| If you don't wash em, and ideally get them with a good coat
| of soil, potatoes can be stored till next summer.
| saiya-jin wrote:
| that's how my parents & ancestors kept potatoes, one of
| staple foods in central/eastern europe - dirty with bits of
| earth, in non-heated dark room/place. They get the only
| wash just before cooking. Same for other crop like carrots,
| onions etc.
|
| They lasted from autumn harvest till, well, next autumn.
| Yes, they were a bit sprouty and wrinkled, but very much
| eadible.
| omginternets wrote:
| In the US people are super paranoid about food as compared to
| most of the EU (and probably other places as well). Americans
| keep eggs, fruit, cured meats and jam in the fridge as well.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| I think you're somewhat misinformed.
|
| Unlike in Europe, American chickens eggs are washed and
| need to be refrigerated in order to not go bad (it's more
| common for American chickens to have salmonella, which is
| also why you shouldn't eat raw eggs in America).
|
| Some fruits (such as apples or pineapples) simply taste
| better cold, and some fruits _do_ last longer if
| refrigerated. That 's important if you go grocery shopping
| every two weeks, which is quite normal in America.
|
| Canned jam is never refrigerated, but once opened it always
| is, and I'm sure that's the case everywhere.
|
| Cured meats, like jerky? No one refrigerates that.
| morsch wrote:
| I usually put jam in the fridge, now, but we never used
| to when I was a kid. We go through jam fast enough that
| it's probably unnecessary now, but why risk it... Then
| again I have like twice as much fridge space as we used
| to back then.
| tastyfreeze wrote:
| One correction, enviromentally salmonella is just as
| common in the EU as the US. Chickens in the US are not
| immunized for salmonella like they are everywhere else
| that regulates the egg industry. Foreign chicken
| immunization requirements and US egg washing requirements
| started around the same time in response to salmonella
| outbreaks. Both are effective mitigations. However,
| immunizing and not washing has an added benefit of
| incentivizing producers to keep eggs clean.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| That's what I mean, European chickens don't have
| salmonella because they're vaccinated.
|
| Not washing the eggs has the additional advantage that
| they don't need to be refrigerated.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| In the US eggs sold retail are required to be pressure
| washed. This removes the waxy coating that makes the egg
| airtight. So in the US eggs absolutely do need to go in the
| fridge, unless you have your own chickens or such. At room
| temp they'll spoil within about 2 days.
|
| It depends on the fruit but many of them will last longer
| in the fridge. Same goes for cured meat and jams.
| Especially with jam you may not eat it often enough to stop
| it from molding at room temps.
|
| I get making fun of stupid American habits is an EU
| pastime, but this is some pretty dumb stereotyping. There's
| rational reasons behind what most people are doing, even if
| it's a little different from the habits where you live.
| omginternets wrote:
| >but this is some pretty dumb stereotyping
|
| It's hardly stereotyping. By your own admission, its
| representative of the norm. But your explanation is well-
| taken.
|
| Nevertheless, it speaks to the greater point: people
| (especially in the US) have become disconnected from
| their foods. Much of this appears to be structural, as
| you have pointed out.
| jasonwatkinspdx wrote:
| It's easy to overgeneralize. If you want to believe that
| everyone is disconnected from food, you'll find
| confirmation of that. If instead you point to the farm to
| table movement, and the huge popularity of
| authentic/artisanal foods among anyone in the US with
| disposable income, and you'd come to the opposite
| conclusion. Both are painting with too broad a brush.
| radicalbyte wrote:
| Americans keep eggs in the fridge because American farming
| regulations result in eggs covered in poo, which need to be
| washed. The washing process destroys the protective layer
| of the egg, which means that it will spoilt outside of the
| fridge.
|
| In Europe our regulations mean that the chickens are kept
| in much cleaner conditions; our eggs don't need to be
| cleaned so keep their protective layer and can be kept
| outside of the fridge.
| phonypc wrote:
| The important difference is that European chickens are
| mostly vaccinated against salmonella. Eggs and poop
| ultimately travel though the same orifice, so if the
| chicken has salmonella the egg is likely to be
| contaminated even if there isn't visible poop on it.
| infinite8s wrote:
| This is not quite true. While eggs and poop come out of
| the same orifice, while laying the egg the uterus extends
| a bit out of the body, so there's no chance the egg would
| come into contact with poop.
| [deleted]
| zikzak wrote:
| Temperature can change the starch/sugar balance in the
| potatoes as well.
| infinite8s wrote:
| In fact, it's recommended to refrigerate potatoes the day
| before you want to fry them since that triggers a
| conversion of the starch to sugar.
| masklinn wrote:
| > I've noticed that when you put a bag of potatoes in the
| fridge, they will still keep far shorter than if you had them
| in a dedicated potato cellar.
|
| That's because fridges are entirely the wrong place to store
| potatoes, potatoes react to light, you're better off keeping
| them at ambient temperature in the dark (and regularly trimming
| the sprouts) than you are keeping them in a fridge which gets
| lit up 15 times a day.
|
| For other veggies, it might be that they're e.g. ethylene-
| reactive, a fridge is a sealed environment so any gas is going
| to stay around. Humidity is also a factor.
| galaxyLogic wrote:
| > fridge which gets lit up 15 times a day.
|
| Then a simple solution would be to keep the potatoes in a
| non-transparent bag in the fridge, no? That would be better
| than a bag outside the fridge I would think, if light is the
| problem. No?
|
| I'm gonna try that thanks for the tip
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Best solution for potatoes is to put plastic tote or wooden
| box in the garage or basement, fill halfway with sand and
| put the potatoes in, covered lightly with sand. Keep a lid
| on top. If that's too much, use a paper bag and put it
| somewhere cool that won't freeze.
|
| My family does this every winter -- I buy 100 lbs of
| potatoes from a farm for $15-25.
|
| It works for carrots too.
| elliottkember wrote:
| There's no benefit to keeping them refrigerated. You're
| just using up fridge space. Cupboard in a bag is fine.
| [deleted]
| vram22 wrote:
| Interesting points. Didn't know some of them. My 2c: in
| India, I don't think anyone stores potatoes in the fridge,
| even though we have quite hot weather in many parts of the
| country.
|
| Does trimming the sprouts prevent them from rotting?
| masklinn wrote:
| I don't think it prevents rotting, but it temporarily stops
| and slows the sprouting process, which is actively
| converting potato to sprouts and ultimately a plant (so the
| potato gets all shriveled, and you've got greening spread
| from the sprouting site which is full of bitter and
| somewhat toxic compounds).
| vram22 wrote:
| Got it now, thanks. Yes, I've heard that the greenish
| parts of the potato tuber are toxic and should be
| discarded. Contain some alkaloids, likely. The potato is
| a plant in the Solanaceae family, which includes common
| edible plants like potato, tomato, eggplant, chillies,
| bell peppers, etc., as well as some poisonous ones like
| datura. In fact, I was surprised to see how huge and
| diverse the family is:
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solanaceae
| max_hammer wrote:
| Patatos are stored in cold storage.
| wunderflix wrote:
| I also noticed that vegetables don't keep long in our fridge. I
| think one reason is they get stacked on top of each other and
| through the pressure they get damaged. And that's how they get
| moldy quickly.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| I can't get past the cookie banner. Can someone explain the
| ancient method for me please? Thank you :)
| slim wrote:
| mud tupperware
| gandalfian wrote:
| Put grapes in a mud and straw bowl and seal over. Crack it open
| months later and grapes are still good. Nobody has studied it
| to be sure of the specifics.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| Thanks!
| williesleg wrote:
| Poppies?
| austincheney wrote:
| I remember when I was there locals telling me Afghanistan had a
| fantastic variety of grape local to the area. They were once
| regularly farmed. The Taliban attempted to burn most of them down
| as grapes can be used to make wine which is not Halal.
| Nonetheless grapevines remained a beloved curiosity in Kabul
| largely for their aesthetics and low maintenance.
| max_hammer wrote:
| Or Opimium is more profitable than grapes
| ilamont wrote:
| 25 years ago I travelled in the Taklamakan Basin which lies to
| the east of Afghanistan in Xinjiang, NW China. The local Uyghur
| people and their forebears had perfected over millennia various
| techniques related to growing and preserving grapes. It's a sub-
| sea level depression, one of the driest and hottest spots in
| Central Asia - so hot that local people warned me not to park my
| bicycle in the sun or the tires might burst. For thousands of
| years the people there have maintained underground irrigation
| channels which bring water from the mountains hundreds of km to
| the north to irrigate grapes and other crops. The covered
| channels go right through the towns and even in the early summer
| were filled with rushing water. Grape trellises were growing over
| many of the sidewalks throughout the city of Turpan (with stern
| signs in Arabic script and Chinese not to eat them, ignored by
| local kids) providing shade as well as grapes. The countryside
| nearby had these brick buildings with gaps between the bricks
| used for rapid drying of grapes to be made into the best raisins
| I've ever had.
| samatman wrote:
| The Taklamakan is a basin (so lower than everything around it)
| and used to _be_ an inland sea. But it isn 't below sea level,
| everything is above 1000 meters.
|
| One of those obscure corners of the Earth I have always wanted
| to visit...
| mc32 wrote:
| Quite interesting! Also what was the reason for the warning
| against eating?
| samstave wrote:
| My guess is so that they arent over harvested causing the
| leaves to die eliminating the shade quality?
| csunbird wrote:
| Probably because that they are owned.
| neartheplain wrote:
| The underground canals sound like qanats, an ancient irrigation
| technology that originated in Persia and then spread to China
| and elsewhere:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qanat
| vram22 wrote:
| Beat me to saying the same thing, by an hour:) I've always
| thought qanats were a cool idea.
| hinkley wrote:
| I always thought digging a qanat must have been miserable
| work, but the fact is that the human body's peak endurance
| comes at a temperature that is pretty close to ground
| temperature.
|
| Runners and cyclists and gardeners know that a nice 55deg day
| you can just go forever without stopping because your body
| isn't wasting any energy on perspiration. And in fact if you
| do stop for long you just get cold.
| jandrese wrote:
| The also sound like the Puquios used in South America.
| abdupattoh wrote:
| I have the same wonderful memory of Turpan in 2000. Clay
| structures for making raisins were scattered around the
| villages. Hottest place I have been in my life. Great food.
| dr-detroit wrote:
| Just let a little air out of the tubes youll be fine
| etimberg wrote:
| Example of the vines in case anyone is also curious
| https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9532058,89.1822778,3a,75y,24...
| ACAVJW4H wrote:
| I once heard in central Anatolia people used to store grapes on
| the vine. They would trim the end of the vine, pluck one of the
| fresh grapes and stick it on the trimmed end. Finally vines would
| be hanged from the ceiling of a cool cellar.
|
| My grandfather told me that the nutrients and moisture within
| that one grape would keep the others alive for longer.
| raducu wrote:
| I've seen the same thing done by my grandfather in Eastern
| Europe.
| ineedasername wrote:
| Actually the grape on the end is needed so the cellar knew it
| was the end of the vine. Otherwise the cellar would throw a
| compiler error.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Or the the grape on the end was used to properly indent from
| the wall as the cellar doesn't need EOL indicators since
| everything will have the proper white space.
| ampdepolymerase wrote:
| How do you stick it back on to the vine?
| davchana wrote:
| Kind of prick the end of vine (the place where vine was
| cut/sheared) into that one single grape like a needle.
| hinkley wrote:
| People do something similar with allium family plants as well.
| I think we've been doing this a lot longer than anyone really
| knows.
| jk7tarYZAQNpTQa wrote:
| In Spain there's a variety of tomatoes called "tomates de
| colgar" [1], which means "tomatoes to be hanged". I've also
| heard the term "tomates de invierno" ("tomatoes for the
| winter"). The idea is that you hang them in a dark, dry place,
| and they'll last until the next summer. It's absolutely amazing
| picking up a tomato that was collected 6 months ago, and
| cutting it open to discover a fruit full of juices and flavor.
|
| IMO the industrialization of agriculture and livestock was a
| huge leap forward in terms of yield and productivity, but a
| huge step backward in everything else (health, taste, variety,
| know-how, etc.)
|
| [1] https://marksvegplot.blogspot.com/2016/09/tomates-de-
| colgar....
| [deleted]
| FlyMoreRockets wrote:
| The article mentions it works best with thick skinned grapes.
| Muscadine grapes may be well suited for this technique.
|
| https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2017/09/26/551835327/mu...
| joshuaheard wrote:
| Also, the article mentioned that the grapes were harvested late
| in the season. This would mean they had a higher sugar content.
| The sugar would act as a preservative.
| jandrese wrote:
| It's probably a technique that has been slowly refined and
| perfected over the centuries. Selectively breeding grapes
| that preserve well, finding the correct mud and how much
| water to mix, working out that saucer shape and how many you
| can do at once. There are many years of gradual improvements
| baked into those grapes.
| dmarlow wrote:
| I need to do more research and experimentation with moisture
| control for things I seal air tight.
| cycrutchfield wrote:
| This is pretty interesting. For those familiar with winemaking,
| there is a technique called carbonic maceration where grapes will
| self-ferment intracellularly in an anaerobic environment.
| Typically even if you don't artificially create an anaerobic
| environment (by pumping in CO2), if you put enough grapes in a
| sealed chamber the ones on the bottom will get crushed by the
| weight of the grapes above and the yeast living on the skins will
| kickstart carbonic maceration for the rest of the grapes (by
| producing CO2).
|
| That may be one reason why the containers they make to store the
| grapes are relatively shallow; a larger vessel such as a pot may
| inadvertently crush some grapes and lead to making wine instead
| of storing your grapes!
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