[HN Gopher] Self-compassion is not self-indulgence
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Self-compassion is not self-indulgence
Author : nreece
Score : 91 points
Date : 2021-03-25 04:01 UTC (19 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (psyche.co)
(TXT) w3m dump (psyche.co)
| wombatmobile wrote:
| "Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's
| life. Don't be trapped by dogma - which is living with the
| results of other people's thinking. Don't let the noise of
| others' opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most
| important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition."
|
| -- Steve Jobs
| amelius wrote:
| And go thermonuclear if you have to.
| hn_asker wrote:
| Feels like we live in a society where self-compassion is not
| tolerated. How can we be kind to ourselves if there are
| mechanisms in society that keep us distracted from ourselves?
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| I am percieveing that your statment is twenty and forty and
| even fifty years out from date. This have been the case in past
| times but we have now had pendulem swing in to far the other
| direction. There exists in today to much "if you are feel
| depresed that is normal." It, is not a normal thing and shold
| be pitied not be calling normal. Calling a thing a normal makes
| it more encouraging to a person and so it is not a good thing.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Learn to reject some of the distractions. You don't even have
| to reject them entirely, you mostly just need moderation. I
| used to play video games essentially any time I wasn't at work
| or eating (which was not a healthy way to deal with my anxiety
| and depression and chronic pain, but it was an effective
| distraction). I cut back on that to let myself focus on
| healthier or more productive activities. I still play games,
| not nearly as much as before obviously, but it's no longer at
| that former extreme, self-indulgent and destructive level.
| dr-detroit wrote:
| I quit Wow and now I cant put in the commitment to raid or
| even do mythics let alone play the tbc beta. Gods I was
| strong then.
| beforeolives wrote:
| That's like asking how one can be in shape if there is so much
| sugar in the world.
| michael1999 wrote:
| You can be normal, or you can live well.
| hn_asker wrote:
| Reminds me of a documentary called "Medicating Normal". Try
| being self-compassionate when you have unholy side effects of
| benzos, anti-depressants, and anti-psychotics prescribed to
| you.
|
| Normal by "western" standards is unhealthy. We need a
| renaissance of self-compassion but it has to be protected
| from the systems that be.
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| I am recognise that here we have no problem for to simpley
| solve. But, however, are you haveing idea on how protected
| from the systems that be means and ought to be enactment?
| We have jobs if are demanding normal; how ought one to
| holding down job without normal?
| circlefavshape wrote:
| Erm ... what's wrong with self-indulgence?
| aimor wrote:
| The excessiveness of it.
| stevenhuang wrote:
| We wouldn't want to end up like the Aeldaris now would we?
|
| https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Aeldari
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| There is no wrong in a simple indulginces. I have completed big
| project in recent week past and went for purchase my self ice-
| cream-cone. This indulgence, not necesity. There is however
| existing today in West large cultures of "poor me"/of pitying
| self. One is never failing, simply try ones best. The pendulem
| has swung to far in the oposite direction from fifty years in
| past time.
| [deleted]
| Jtsummers wrote:
| Not necessarily anything until it gets to an extreme, but it's
| not self-compassion and that's the point of the article (or a
| chunk of it, most of the article is about what self-compassion
| actually is but doesn't spend too much time contrasting it with
| other things). Many people conflate the two concepts and self-
| indulgence (being generally egocentric) is often considered
| "bad". If the two ideas get mixed together then this leads to a
| rejection of self-compassion as well.
| murph-almighty wrote:
| I'm halfway through This Difficult Thing of Being Human, which
| advocates for self compassion and tries to create a framework for
| the reader to practice it.
|
| Admittedly I'm not great at remembering to break the mental
| "downward spiral", but it's pretty good at establishing why this
| isn't just self-coddling, so I'd suggest it.
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| >For instance, in one study, my colleagues Patricia Chen, Jamil
| Zaki and I looked into the coping strategies used by people who
| were disappointed and upset following the outcome of the 2016 US
| presidential election. Those who viewed self-compassion
| positively were more likely than others to draw upon self-
| compassion in a beneficial way to help them get through the
| difficult times - for instance, they reported using more active
| strategies to manage their emotions, such as seeking support from
| others, and relied less upon unhelpful strategies, such as
| distraction or self-blame. This not only helped them feel better,
| it worked better too - our participants who practised more self-
| compassion reported having more intentions to improve themselves
| and the situation, such as by committing to become more
| politically active.
|
| But that's the entire issue behind whether something is "self-
| compassion" or whether it is "self-indulgence". How do we know
| what's beneficial and what's not? Sometimes being hard on oneself
| is good. Sometimes being soft on oneself is bad. We can't know in
| advance the outcomes of our actions, so how do we choose between
| the two?
|
| >Remember that, time and time again, researchers find that self-
| compassion not only helps us feel better but has positive
| practical consequences too.
|
| But again, this generic statement isn't enough for people. This
| doesn't help people determine where the line is between self-
| compassion and self-indulgence. If I quit my job and draw bubble
| baths all day, then yeah, I'll feel better, but my material
| status will decline precipitously, and if I have dependents, the
| benefit for me turns into a loss for them.
|
| Feel like this article could have been written by GPT-3, looks
| legit but totally lacks substance.
| azundo wrote:
| I can also recommend https://www.tarabrach.com/radical-
| compassion/ as a great introduction to the idea of self
| compassion and some very practical ways to practice it.
| kashyapc wrote:
| (Prior art from 2000+ years ago.)
|
| The first 29 letters (out of 124) that Seneca wrote, to his
| friend Lucilius, end with a quotation--the "daily dole"
| referenced below--from writings that have impressed Seneca. He
| ends his letter 6 this way:
|
| <quote>
|
| _Meanwhile, as I owe you the daily dole, I will tell you what
| pleased me today in the writings of Hecaton:_
|
| _" Do you ask what progress I have made? I have begun to be a
| friend to myself."_
|
| _Valuable progress indeed: he will never be alone. Believe me,
| such a person will be a friend to everyone._
|
| _Farewell._
|
| </quote>
| throw_this_one wrote:
| And the key is that being a good friend is being compassionate,
| loving, but also honest.
| finnthehuman wrote:
| This article is unactionable fluff.
|
| I shouldn't be too hard on myself? gee thanks, a fortune cookie
| can tell me that. And it's a shorter read too.
|
| Why does the obvious question go unacknowledged by this article?
| The question is roughly "How does someone calibrate how they
| reflect on their actions and effectively guide themselves through
| life?" People are not tough on themselves for no reason, it's a
| (possibly misguided) attempt to push themselves towards their
| goals. If you tell them to be self-compassionate without
| answering that you're setting them up to resist your advice.
|
| What deduction am I to make other than: the article doesn't
| address the question because it doesn't have an answer.
|
| NB: I have an answer that works for me; I'm talking about how
| good this piece of persuasive writing is at providing one for
| people that don't. But thanks for the advice.
| OnACoffeeBreak wrote:
| You may find this paper by Kristin Neff more palatable:
|
| https://academic.udayton.edu/jackbauer/PGSG/Neff%2003%20self...
|
| From the paper:
|
| "Some may fear that having too much self-compassion leads to
| passivity, but this should not be the case when feelings of
| self-compassion are genuine. While having self-compassion
| requires that one does not harshly criticize the self for
| failing to meet ideal standards, it does not mean that one's
| failings go unnoticed or unrectified. Rather, it means that the
| actions needed for optimal functioning and health (and having
| compassion for oneself means that one desires well-being for
| oneself) are encouraged with gentleness and patience. Thus,
| self-compassion should not imply passivity or inaction with
| regard to weaknesses observed in the self."
| hinkley wrote:
| Abrasive people are often abrasive with themselves first, and
| then rationalize that they aren't expecting anything from
| others that they don't already expect from themselves, and then
| some. They are just being "fair".
|
| Lighten up.
| dougmwne wrote:
| Management by aggression, punishment, belittling, and
| disrespect is generally seen as a terrible fit for creative or
| knowledge professionals. Manage yourself how you would wish to
| be managed by a wonderful manager.
| Jtsummers wrote:
| The article includes a definition of self-compassion,
| comparison/contrasts with other things people do (self-
| beratement and self-indulgence), links to studies on the topic,
| as well as resources on how to practice/develop it. How is that
| "unactionable fluff"? The article _itself_ is not a tutorial,
| but it gives you access to deeper materials if you 're
| interested.
|
| Do you also expect chapter 1 for a text or the abstract for a
| paper to explain _everything_ or to establish the motivation
| and definitions for what follows?
| [deleted]
| alexslobodnik wrote:
| Each article has its own audience. Maybe this article isn't for
| you, that's cool. Others may find it helpful. Even if you know
| something, it is helpful to be reminded of it from time to
| time.
| bitshiftfaced wrote:
| The author outlines Neff's work, but you might find a more
| concrete gameplan in Neff's book. [1] It's based on an eight-
| week program.
|
| 1. https://www.thriftbooks.com/w/the-mindful-self-compassion-
| wo...
| xg15 wrote:
| > _it 's a (possibly misguided) attempt to push themselves
| towards their goals._
|
| Ist that really so? I think the article is trying to
| distinguish between three types of self-reflection and only one
| of them is actually pushing you towards your goal.
|
| 1) Punishing yourself and calling into question whether you can
| reach your goal at all. ("I failed that math test! How could
| I?! What kind of idiot am I?! What is wrong with me?!")
|
| 2) Self-indulgence, which I understand as distracting yourself
| from negative feelings with activities that bring immediate
| satisfaction - but neither advance your progress nor give you
| more insight into what went wrong. ("I failed that math test! I
| feel like shit! Let's go shopping!")
|
| 3) Self-compassion which is more about accepting something
| happened and trying to find out what went wrong without
| becoming degrading or punishing.
|
| Only 3) is actually pushing you towards your goal. In fact, the
| others may be pushing you away from it - 1) through negative
| and 2) through positive reinforcement.
|
| I think the article's intention is to make people better at
| spotting the differences and steer their thinking patterns away
| from 1) and 2) and towards 3). At least that was my impression.
| dang wrote:
| Can you please stay within the site guidelines when posting to
| HN? You're arguably on the wrong side of at least 4 here:
|
| " _Don 't be snarky._"
|
| _" When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of
| calling names. 'That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be
| shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3.'"_
|
| " _Please don 't post shallow dismissals, especially of other
| people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something._"
|
| " _Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of
| what someone says, not a weaker one that 's easier to
| criticize. Assume good faith._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Thoughtful critique is welcome, of course, and you've got the
| kernel of that here. But it's important to avoid the putdown
| aspects and to remember how easy it is to misread others and
| misassess intentions. That leads to gaps in our perceptions,
| and we tend to fill in the blanks with crap that's actually
| drawn from our own imaginations (and sometimes is looking for
| an excuse to vent itself), which typically makes for less
| interesting discussion.
| OnACoffeeBreak wrote:
| Here's a paper that introduced me to self-compassion. It explains
| what self-compassion is and how it is different from self-esteem:
|
| https://academic.udayton.edu/jackbauer/PGSG/Neff%2003%20self...
| motohagiography wrote:
| I recognize that pattern of self-beratement, and it becomes
| reflexive like a tic or scratching an itch, but then it happens
| so much that eventually it can become like a sore, with all the
| consequences. It can also mean the cruelty you have for yourself
| sets a threshold where the accidental cruelty you have towards
| others doesn't even register because it's not nearly as bad as
| what you do to yourself. If you can recognize that the self-
| berating pattern can have collateral damage on people it would
| break your heart to be cruel to, it can make exercising
| compassion a priority.
|
| One of my favourite discussions of this was in the animated
| series Midnight Gospel, where the fellow being interviewed talked
| about the Buddhist perspective on what was essentially people's
| lack of self-compassion as recognizing that, "you're grinding in
| Minecraft." Man, Buddhists are assholes. But well worth listening
| to.
| DoofusOfDeath wrote:
| You make an interesting point. I suspect the post is downvoted
| only because of the second-to-last sentence.
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