[HN Gopher] Part of Wright brothers' first airplane on NASA's Ma...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Part of Wright brothers' first airplane on NASA's Mars chopper
        
       Author : pseudolus
       Score  : 94 points
       Date   : 2021-03-24 10:46 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (phys.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (phys.org)
        
       | KingOfCoders wrote:
       | The overhyping of the Wright brothers for a hundred+ years and
       | the writing everyone else out of history is a top notch job!
        
         | ceejayoz wrote:
         | Someone's gotta be first. They were it.
        
           | stadium wrote:
           | First to launch with an assist from a rail and dolly.
           | Dumont's was likely the first unassisted launch.
        
             | sandworm101 wrote:
             | That is an underappreciated aspect to their efforts. The
             | Wright flyer, if built today, would not qualify for many
             | flight records as it could not fly unassisted.
             | 
             | More current controversy: Should Chuck Yeager be called the
             | first to break the sound barrier if his aircraft couldn't
             | takeoff unassisted? Should records count if mid-air
             | refueling was used while breaking them (SR-71)?
        
           | sandworm101 wrote:
           | The real issue is in how the Wrights are portrayed. They are
           | touted as isolated geniuses who _invented flying_. In reality
           | they were part of a large community of people all attacking
           | the problem. The various techs were coming together,
           | specifically IC engines and the understanding of aero /fluid
           | dynamics. The Wrights were indeed first, but had they not
           | existed any number of other teams would have achieved the
           | same thing at almost the same time in history.
        
             | ramraj07 wrote:
             | The idolisation of the lucky geniuses who made that one
             | final leap is unfortunately necessary because this inspires
             | and motivates not just the people doing the work but
             | children and public alike. Humans are attracted to
             | celebrity, I'd much rather it's the wright brothers than
             | the Jenner sisters.
        
             | eej71 wrote:
             | I used to share that viewpoint until I read The Wright
             | Brothers by David McCullough.
        
             | holoduke wrote:
             | Almost everything is a collaborative process. Even the
             | papers from Albert Einstein are in the end a collection of
             | many inputs from many people.
        
               | sandworm101 wrote:
               | The wrights weren't really collaborative. They operated
               | largely alone. Most of the teams operated alone, but all
               | pulled from developments that were evolving regardless of
               | the aviation drive. Fluid/propeller dynamics was evolving
               | for naval purposes, engines for ground-based transport.
               | Had the wrights not been first, any number of others
               | would have cobbled together these techs into a working
               | aircraft.
        
               | throwaway894345 wrote:
               | Agreed. The "collaborative process being attributed to a
               | lone genius" is the rule; the Wright brothers were not
               | exceptional in this regard. We almost _always_ fail to
               | recognize collaboration. I would actually argue that
               | Einstein is the exception to the rule in that, while no
               | doubt he did collaborate especially once he became
               | somewhat established, he did much innovation on problems
               | that no one was even thinking about at various times.
               | Einstein was among the lone geniuses to the extent that
               | there have ever been lone geniuses. See also Ramanujan.
        
               | qqqwerty wrote:
               | His wife might disagree:
               | https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/the-
               | forgotte...
        
           | KingOfCoders wrote:
           | First for what? Adding a motor to something that everyone
           | else did? Putting a motor to a plane? To an helicopter (done
           | before a plane) And one was first for adding the tail. One
           | was first for figuring out the aerodynamics of plane wings.
           | One was first to use metal. One was first to trying to fly
           | with wings and killing himself. One was first for trying to
           | fly and gliding for a hundred meters. Because we don't use
           | jets today in modern planes, one was first to use jets on a
           | plane.
           | 
           | Yes, someone's gotta be first.
        
             | iancmceachern wrote:
             | Yeah, but they built their own engine after they didn't
             | find one light and powerful enough. Building ones own
             | engine in that time was not trivial.
        
             | [deleted]
        
             | ceejayoz wrote:
             | First to achieve _actual powered human flight_.
             | 
             | Pretending that's not a milestone is silly.
        
               | anderber wrote:
               | It sure is, but we need to keep in mind that between them
               | and the next guy was a somewhat short amount of time (and
               | the next guy didn't know anything about them). They
               | happened to be first but with the technology at the time
               | it was bound to happen soon.
        
               | qudat wrote:
               | I think this is true for any advancement in technology.
               | No one does it in a vacuum. From my perspective you are
               | not illustrating anything novel. I also think this is
               | true for advancements in science as well. If Einstein
               | didn't figure out general relativity someone else would
               | have.
        
               | anderber wrote:
               | I think what I illustrated was a more specific thing.
               | Santos-Dumont thought he invented the airplane because
               | not many had knowledge of what the Wright Brothers did.
               | So this is a unique situation where 2 different people
               | did invent at around the same time. Not to take anything
               | away from the Brothers, they were first and deserve to be
               | known.
        
               | Stupulous wrote:
               | I don't doubt you're already aware, but for context:
               | Surprisingly, this is not a unique phenomenon. Calculus,
               | evolution, magnetism, the telegraph, and the lightbulb,
               | among very many[1] others, all were discovered or
               | invented at the same time independently. It isn't the
               | rule, but it's definitely significant enough that single
               | inventors aren't the rule either.
               | 
               | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multiple_discov
               | eries
        
               | bbarnett wrote:
               | Plus, how did one find anything out?
               | 
               | Even when telegraph, the phone, and wireless first
               | existed, how would you transmit thousands upon thousands
               | of scientific papers? News?
               | 
               | And who would pay the incredible cost of doing so?
               | Imagine transcribing by hand, via Morris code, or
               | reading/writing, via phone?
               | 
               | How would Bob in Asia, know what Tom in the UK was
               | working on? Even mail often did not exist reliably.
               | 
               | Some stuff could be shipped, sure, but it isn't as if
               | sail was speedy.
               | 
               | People have been in the dark for most of history.
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | I mean, sorta. In 1906 he was claiming the Wrights were
               | lying about their ability to fly 30 miles.
               | 
               | https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/12816410
        
               | ethbr0 wrote:
               | > _They happened to be first but with the technology at
               | the time it was bound to happen soon._
               | 
               | Whittle patented the concept of a turbojet engine in
               | 1930. The first prototype wasn't created until 1937. The
               | first British production jet plane (Gloster Meteor)
               | didn't fly until 1943.
               | 
               | Some things turn on capital and access to facilities.
        
               | itomato wrote:
               | "Bound to happen" = "didn't happen"
        
               | anderber wrote:
               | That's the thing, it did happen. Alberto Santos-Dumont
               | thought he was the first (most of the world thought so
               | too) to invent the airplane. So even if the Wright
               | Brothers never existed this would've happen.
        
               | jecel wrote:
               | Actually, at a 1905 dinner in Washington DC Santos-Dumont
               | got to talk with a man who had been at the Wright's 1903
               | flight. So there is a chance that his sudden change from
               | the 14 (lighter than air) to the 14-bis (airplane) might
               | have been influenced by this talk.
               | 
               | Note that Santos-Dumont did get the prize for the first
               | flight that required that the flight happen in Paris.
               | Just like today there is a prize for the best solar power
               | car in Australia and if I build one and drive it around
               | in Africa I won't get that prize.
        
               | zthrowaway wrote:
               | So? We can still reward people who take the ambition and
               | risk to push humanity forward.
               | 
               | They so happened to get recognition before anyone else,
               | someone has to, that's part of romanticizing what they
               | did to influence future pioneers.
        
               | anderber wrote:
               | I'm not taking anything away from the Wright Brothers,
               | they were first and deserve to be know as such. But
               | Santos-Dumont invented the airplane (or so he thought)
               | without any knowledge of the brothers since they did it
               | in secret. So they weren't that influential for him. A
               | lot of people never heard of him but he gave his designs
               | away for free which helped bring more innovation at a
               | break neck speed.
               | 
               | > The Demoiselle could be constructed in only 15 days.
               | Possessing a good performance, flying at a speed of more
               | than 100 km/h, the Demoiselle was the last aircraft
               | designed by Santos-Dumont. The June 1910 edition of the
               | Popular Mechanics magazine published drawings of the
               | Demoiselle and stated, "This machine is better than any
               | other which has ever been built, for those who wish to
               | reach results with the least possible expense and with a
               | minimum of experimenting." American companies sold
               | drawings and parts for Demoiselles for several years
               | afterward.
        
               | zthrowaway wrote:
               | Fair enough, TIL.
        
         | apples_oranges wrote:
         | It's the same with everything. Who invented the electrical
         | battery? The light bulb? Wireless communication? etc.
        
       | josefresco wrote:
       | I say this half-jokingly... are any parts of these missions
       | _insignificant_? I feel like every component and mechanism has
       | some sort of Easter egg or hidden meaning.
       | 
       | If someone is like "hey I need screw" do I first have to start
       | with melted down metal from the door frame of the first space
       | mission ever or can I just go down to parts and grab a screw?
        
       | weatherlight wrote:
       | human narratives matter :)
        
       | hikerclimb wrote:
       | Hopefully this doesn't work.
        
       | twiclo wrote:
       | Why would they wait till now to reveal this?
        
         | NortySpock wrote:
         | Also, if Perseverance had slammed into Mars at 200 mph, they
         | wouldn't have "Part of Wright Brothers' plane now in toxic
         | radioactive junk heap on Mars; Thanks NASA!" plastered over the
         | daily headlines.
        
         | ceejayoz wrote:
         | To keep the rover in the news during a fairly boring period of
         | checking everything out post-landing.
         | 
         | NASA's press strategy has gotten dramatically more competent in
         | the last 20 years or so.
        
           | rtkwe wrote:
           | They're also working on deploying Ingenuity right now but
           | yeah they're also probably using it to not fall completely
           | off the radar during the relatively slow initial checkout
           | period.
        
           | viro wrote:
           | Overall public option of these programs have a huge effect on
           | funding. So I'm glad their press strategy has gotten so much
           | better.
        
       | isolli wrote:
       | It's crazy that only 120 years elapsed between these two events.
       | It's a short time to go from flying on earth for the first time
       | to flying on Mars for the first time.
        
         | vecter wrote:
         | Dark forest. Technological explosion.
         | 
         | (All kidding aside, I don't believe in the dark forest theory
         | one bit)
        
           | HenryBemis wrote:
           | Dark Forest theory: https://thoughtcatalog.com/christine-
           | stockton/2021/02/heres-...
           | 
           |  _Imagine you are alone walking through a dark forest. You
           | hear a noise. Is it your inclination to be friendly to anyone
           | or anything you happen to stumble across while exploring the
           | unknown?_
           | 
           | I bet many of us sometimes think that, some advanced
           | civilization is playing SIMs iRL :)
           | 
           | For the Trekkies (such as myself), we may be part of a bet of
           | four Qs, each one started a 'SIM' game in each quadrant of
           | our galaxy. The first one to find someone else, wins! Plot
           | twist, one of the Qs made the Borgs.
        
         | usrusr wrote:
         | But the progress of those 120 years completely pales in
         | comparison to the progress during their first 70. Make it 75
         | and you go from rudimentary cars and the occasional glider
         | experiments all the way to Apollo and the Concorde. After
         | that... not much. We moved on to information I guess, far more
         | scalable wrt natural resources.
        
           | ramraj07 wrote:
           | Watching 2001 again pains me endlessly for what could have
           | been. What was just background technology in that movie
           | (Skype and iPads) is the best we've managed from it.
        
             | eecc wrote:
             | Well, there's an energy wall we still haven't figured out
             | how to work around.
        
               | scottLobster wrote:
               | And have no real desire to figure out, if you look at the
               | relatively paltry funding given to energy research
               | compared to other endeavors.
        
             | scottLobster wrote:
             | All comes down to economics. I grew up with the sunny
             | optimistic notion of the human drive for exploration,
             | projected onto everything from Paleolithic Tribes
             | populating the world to Christopher Columbus to Oregon
             | Trail Pioneers to Star Trek. The older I get and the more
             | history I read, well the paleolithic tribes were probably
             | chasing prey or trying to get away from other hostile
             | tribes, no one was interested in Columbus's findings until
             | he told them there was gold/other valuables in the new
             | world. The western pioneers largely had so little economic
             | opportunity on the east coast that going thousands of miles
             | over hostile terrain just to perhaps start a successful
             | farm/mine gold seemed like a good idea. Star Trek is
             | predicated on a post-scarcity, participation-based society
             | (where "doing your best" is tracked and rewarded) which is
             | basically enlightened communism but with open-source
             | algorithms replacing the corrupt humans for
             | pricing/resource allocation. So sure, once we figure that
             | little thing out maybe we can move up Maslow's hierarchy to
             | the "human spirit of exploration". Until then most people
             | are just trying to not go bankrupt, minimize their own
             | misery and perhaps have something left for their kids.
        
           | beaconstudios wrote:
           | I think Peter Thiel hit the nail on the head when he wrote
           | that America went from being led by definite optimists ("I am
           | going to invent the future and it's going to be great"), to
           | being led by indefinite optimists ("the future's probably
           | going to be great, but I'm going to focus on my investment
           | portfolio"). The social capital shifted from inventors and
           | innovators to bean counters at some point after the 60s.
           | 
           | FWIW I'm from the UK and we haven't been definite optimists
           | since the 1800s.
        
             | tomjen3 wrote:
             | Barbara Tuckman is more famous for writing the Guns of
             | August, but she also wrote the the Proud Tower[0] about the
             | (European) world in the 25 years leading up to WWI, and in
             | the concluding chapter she talks about how before the war
             | the people thought they were good, they were proud of the
             | society they had built, but that didn't survive the war,
             | and it /never/ came back at least of Europe. And I mean the
             | book was written in 1996, so any memories of the war are
             | both eclipsed by WWII and burried with a few old people.
             | 
             | I don't think the social capital shifted so much in the US,
             | certainly there are more people being administrators than
             | there was before, but notice how much people like Elon
             | Musk, or the flowers left outside Apple Stores when Steve
             | Jobs died.
             | 
             | [0] https://www.amazon.com/Proud-Tower-Portrait-
             | Before-1890-1914...
        
             | runarberg wrote:
             | Did it really? Or is this a bias in favor of private
             | investment. There has been a lot of investments to
             | government programs such as NASA and NOAA (as well as the
             | military for better or worse). Also universities continue
             | to innovate with plenty of new innovation to show for it.
             | 
             | Perhaps it is more accurate to say that _the American
             | private sector has moved from being led by..._
        
               | beaconstudios wrote:
               | perhaps it is - but it's a cultural thing, and culture
               | tends to affect both the private and public sectors.
               | 
               | DARPA is still doing impressive things though as far as
               | I'm aware. NASA is once again doing cool things, but I
               | can't help but suspect that interest in space was
               | reignited by SpaceX, and Elon Musk is the archetypal
               | definite optimist.
        
             | jackfoxy wrote:
             | WWI, FDR, and then WW2 ushered in the age of big
             | government, academic-government collaboration, and
             | bureaucracy over all.
             | 
             | Everything gets done according to _process_. Elon Musk is a
             | rare iconoclast.
        
               | Pfhreak wrote:
               | Our biggest growth happened after those times. I believe
               | the bend in the curve happened closer to the 70s in the
               | US.
        
               | usrusr wrote:
               | Well, that _process_ was an important innovation as a
               | damage control tool for the cost plus thing. I never
               | really understood the cost plus thing, at least not how
               | it can survive the tiniest excursion out of wishful
               | thinking. Not until the pandemic hit. Then it suddenly
               | became clear to me that in exceptional situations the
               | cost plus model, even with all its failing damage control
               | band-aids, is far superior to waiting for The Market to
               | reach an equilibrium. You wouldn 't win a war by giving
               | each soldier a budget and then unleashing them to outbid
               | each other for ammunition and medical support, to put it
               | bluntly. The failure of course is when you stick to that
               | model for too long ("F35").
               | 
               | (sorry for bringing the pandemic into a discussion about
               | _Wright Flyer bits flying on Mars_ )
        
               | beaconstudios wrote:
               | Bureaucracy stifles innovation as the cost of increased
               | risk management. Being incredibly risk adverse can often
               | be a very short sighted attitude because you surrender
               | the opportunity cost of taking calculated risks like
               | trying new approaches and tools.
               | 
               | Successful organisations are able to adapt over time,
               | where bureaucracies only stagnate.
               | 
               | Markets are orthogonal to that trade off because both
               | bureaucracies and adaptive organisations operate within
               | the market. It's just a tool, you can use it well or
               | poorly.
        
               | usrusr wrote:
               | Markets are not orthogonal in so far as that certain
               | forms of bureaucracy exist solely for dealing with non-
               | market scenarios ("wartime cost plus"). You want either
               | one or the other, never both at once (a market stifled by
               | redundant bureaucracy) or none at all (decisionmakers
               | just wiring the money to family members for vague
               | promises of maybe trying to deliver, perhaps)
               | 
               | Unfortunately it gets a bit murky in that there is
               | another form of bureaucracy to tame markets while they
               | are not circumvented and there's a severe lack of
               | separation between those two forms of bureaucracies.
               | Usually neither critics nor advocates seem to care about
               | the distinction (which plays out _much_ better for
               | critics I suppose).
        
             | qqqwerty wrote:
             | This is just recency bias. We remember those that did great
             | things and we forget those that did not. In 100 years,
             | folks will look back on our time and remember Elon Musk,
             | Bezos, Jobs, Gates, etc... and will wonder why we were
             | blessed with such great visionaries and will complain about
             | how their generation is nothing but bean counters and
             | bureaucrats.
        
               | beaconstudios wrote:
               | Musk stands out in that crowd for being an actual old-
               | school innovator. Bezos, Jobs and Gates have made huge
               | impacts, but those impacts are evolutionary rather than
               | revolutionary.
               | 
               | That's the difference; the rate of actual invention, or
               | as Thiel puts it, going from 0 to 1, has dropped off a
               | cliff.
        
               | qqqwerty wrote:
               | No it hasn't. CRISPR was a very recent invention and has
               | the potential to radically change biotech. mRNA was just
               | used to roll out a novel vaccine in a record amount of
               | time. Solid state batteries will be a game changer in the
               | EV space.
               | 
               | You are just cherry-picking your facts to fit a narrative
               | that you have built. It is easy to glorify the past when
               | you did not live through it. For every Wright Brother,
               | there were hundreds if not thousands of hucksters and
               | shysters. If anything, a close reading of history will
               | illuminate how little has changed regarding the human
               | condition in the last 200 years.
        
               | beaconstudios wrote:
               | > No it hasn't. CRISPR was a very recent invention and
               | has the potential to radically change biotech.
               | 
               | > You are just cherry-picking your facts to fit a
               | narrative that you have built.
               | 
               | lol
               | 
               | less innovation != no innovation.
               | 
               | the human condition may not change, but culture does.
               | Just look to the economy and how many companies are
               | primarily focused on rent extraction or incremental
               | improvements to existing concepts as opposed to inventing
               | new things. How many new inventions did we get in the
               | 50s-60s alone?
        
               | qqqwerty wrote:
               | lol, do you seriously think no one was focused on rent
               | extraction in the 50 and 60s? As if that was a recent
               | invention?
               | 
               | I agree, the culture has changed. Right now, I can now
               | apply to 100's of startup incubators to get funding for
               | my idea or invention. Back in the day, you needed to be
               | either very well connected or from a wealthy family.
               | Today, I have a 3d printer sitting on my desk, and I can
               | hack together a little self driving robot in a weekend.
               | Back then, making prototypes involved an entire machine
               | shop and a ton of capital.
               | 
               | If anything there are too many people trying to innovate.
               | I work in the energy sector, and literally every idea
               | with a shred of plausibility has multiple startups
               | working in the space.
        
               | evgen wrote:
               | You are wasting your time. It seems quite apparent the
               | person you are arguing with has a rather poor grasp of
               | the history of science and technology and has also bought
               | in big-time to the 'great man' theory of history.
               | 
               | Reality is much messier. It is going 1000 different
               | directions all at once, mostly composed of regular people
               | each working on a small thing and most of those small
               | things are useless, and no one knows 99.9999% of what
               | happened or is actually happening now. In the same way
               | that 5 years from now is going to mostly be like today
               | and 25 years from now will be almost unrecognizable for
               | most people, if people cherry pick bits of the past they
               | can imagine almost no progress with current practices but
               | they also imagine themselves to be in the 0.1% in the
               | past who might have had access to this proto-technology
               | but today it costs less than a days labour.
        
               | beaconstudios wrote:
               | > lol, do you seriously think no one was focused on rent
               | extraction in the 50 and 60s? As if that was a recent
               | invention?
               | 
               | No, obviously I don't believe that. You seem to keep
               | going back to black and white arguments, which I didn't
               | make.
               | 
               | > Right now, I can now apply to 100's of startup
               | incubators to get funding for my idea or invention
               | 
               | The biggest, most successful startup examples are
               | incremental. Uber, stripe, Airbnb. Google I would
               | probably argue was a serious innovation over the status
               | quo, but still on an incremental subject.
               | 
               | > Back then, making prototypes involved an entire machine
               | shop and a ton of capital.
               | 
               | I do agree that consumer access to capital, both
               | financial and manufacturing has improved.
               | 
               | But my point in general is that ambition has shrunk and
               | there's less of what Thiel calls 0 to 1 innovation and
               | more energy is going into incremental improvement and
               | rent extraction.
        
               | qqqwerty wrote:
               | lol, and just to nit pick. Musk is probably the least
               | innovative on this list. He did not found Tesla, he took
               | it over. And SpaceX is using designs that had existed for
               | decades. His main "innovation" was betting large sums of
               | money on existing technologies on the hopes that the
               | market was finally ready for them. I will give him credit
               | for starlink and autopilot, but it is too early to judge
               | the impact of either of those yet.
               | 
               | Bezos on the other hand radically transformed the entire
               | retail sector. The logistics required to operate at that
               | scale required healthy amounts of innovation. And AWS is
               | a relatively original and transformative product.
               | 
               | And whatever you think about Steve Jobs and Bill Gates,
               | they were both instrumental in defining the shift to
               | personal computing, among many other impacts. Billions of
               | people have been impacted by their work.
        
               | beaconstudios wrote:
               | > Musk is probably the least innovative on this list.
               | 
               | > Bezos on the other hand radically transformed the
               | entire retail sector
               | 
               | Who cares whether you're doing innovation if your goals
               | are lame? I'd much rather we had more people trying to
               | colonise the stars than people trying to make high
               | availability shopping websites. That's exactly what I've
               | been trying to say this whole time.
               | 
               | I suppose ambition is a better word for it than
               | innovation.
        
               | qqqwerty wrote:
               | Fair enough. I still think there are no shortage of folks
               | with ambition in this generation compared to previous
               | ones. But the one thing that I do think missing is a "new
               | frontier". Previous generations had oceans to sail,
               | mountains to climb, etc... If definitely feels like there
               | are fewer frontiers to explore in this era. But that is
               | largely due to how much ground was already covered by
               | previous generations and not really the fault of the
               | current one.
               | 
               | The stars are basically the last frontier, but
               | unfortunately, exploring those requires budgets that only
               | big governments can afford. Well out of the realm of your
               | garage-scale inventor.
        
               | beaconstudios wrote:
               | I think there are more frontiers than we are generally
               | aware of but for sure the lowest hanging fruit are
               | already picked.
               | 
               | Frontiers generally have to be invented by people willing
               | to go out into the unknown, and I guess the willingness
               | to try completely new things with no obvious benefit is
               | what is missing. Startups are everywhere for those whose
               | ambition is primarily "become wealthy", but most are
               | funded and investors want a credible route to market.
               | 
               | The clearest image that portrays this for me is the 60s
               | scifi images where people were imagining robot butlers,
               | flying cars and cities on the moon and under the sea, all
               | by the year 2000. It really captures what's missing
               | nowadays, and what Elon represents to a lot of people.
        
               | s1artibartfast wrote:
               | I don't think that's correct. PEW data shows that there
               | is a huge increase in skepticism and pessimism
               | characterized by contemporary America
        
             | scottLobster wrote:
             | Yeah, and there's a bit of a bucket crab effect where
             | trying to be a definite optimist in a world of indefinite
             | optimists is much harder.
             | 
             | Reminds of me of "The General" from Asimov's Foundation and
             | Empire (spoiler alert for an amazing book from 1952). In a
             | time where the galactic empire is collapsing/shrinking,
             | General Bel Riose makes it his mission to restore the
             | empire militarily and re-conquer the lost territory. He's
             | actually a good commander, has overwhelming force, and
             | looks to be in the process of achieving complete victory in
             | the style of historical military commanders that made the
             | empire great. In light of his achievements, the Emperor
             | sees him as a potential rival, despite the fact that he
             | never appears to have any ambitions to the throne (he's
             | presented as an Imperial True Believer), recalls him right
             | on the cusp of complete victory over the Foundation, and
             | the Foundation survives being snuffed out in its infancy.
             | 
             | Even trying to emulate the old greats with the best of
             | intentions will fail if you don't account for your
             | environment. If everyone else is more concerned about their
             | portfolio, to some degree you have to be as well, even if
             | it distracts from the greater goals.
        
           | LaMarseillaise wrote:
           | A helicopter... on Mars. That is not much? Also, over one
           | hundred space shuttle flights, a space station, a space
           | telescope, GPS, and public satellite photos.
        
           | cletus wrote:
           | Apollo was a political endeavor. It was rivalry with the
           | Soviet Union. The spending on it in modern dollars is as a
           | percentage of GDP or the Federal budget just wouldn't happen
           | now. Science obviously has value but this was a huge price to
           | pay.
           | 
           | What changed since was a poor successor (the Space Shuttle)
           | followed by the shift from political to economic motivations
           | in space.
           | 
           | As for Concorde, that was a product of the belief in
           | supersonic transport bring the future that was just plain
           | wrong. Where you can use it is too limited and subsonic jets
           | became way more efficient and reliable than anyone predicted.
           | 
           | You may say that not much has changed but air travel 50 years
           | ago was massively expensive. Now air travel is ridiculously
           | cheap. That might not be as flashy but it has massively
           | changed how people live.
        
           | ceejayoz wrote:
           | Aviation largely reached "good enough" for general use. With
           | phones and now video conferencing, there's very little
           | legitimate need outside of military purposes to get somewhere
           | faster than the speed of sound.
        
             | sneak wrote:
             | I have a feeling that the success of the future ballistic
             | passenger service on Starship is going to prove this
             | statement incorrect.
             | 
             | That is, if they can get over the geopolitical hurdles of
             | shooting ICBMs full of people between major world powers.
             | There's no way for an early-warning detection system to
             | know if there's 40 rich businesspeople on board or 40 MIRV
             | warheads. I imagine this challenge will be about on par
             | with the difficulty of building starship in the first
             | place.
        
           | MattGaiser wrote:
           | Improving on speed stopped making sense for civil aviation.
           | Concorde was technologically cool, but didn't solve a major
           | problem.
        
           | kaesar14 wrote:
           | The last 50 years went from the amount of computing power
           | used to power Apollo to being available hundredfold in
           | everyone's pocket, it's as impressive in its own way
        
             | dredmorbius wrote:
             | Apollo went to the moon.
             | 
             | My pocket doesn't.
             | 
             | Spaceflight is not compute-bound.
        
               | kaesar14 wrote:
               | It was just an example
        
             | jahnu wrote:
             | Closer to a hundred million fold :)
        
             | criddell wrote:
             | The technology is impressive. How we're using it often is
             | not.
        
               | kaesar14 wrote:
               | Eh, it also often is. Better transportation, better
               | medical devices, better energy grids. Aviation was and is
               | used to drop bombs on other human beings! Nothing is
               | black or white.
        
             | alpaca128 wrote:
             | A bit offtopic but I recently saw a surprisingly
             | interesting talk about the Apollo board computer[0], and
             | it's incredible how carefully they engineered the whole
             | thing. Software hardcoded in the wiring, error correction
             | for every memory access, ability to restart the whole
             | system in any situation without losing state...this thing
             | might have been rudimentary in today's standards, but the
             | quality of the software was a different beast.
             | 
             | [0] https://youtube.com/watch?v=B1J2RMorJXM
        
               | isolli wrote:
               | True, it's not all about computing cycles :)
        
       | JauntTrooper wrote:
       | I wonder if a piece will end up in another solar system one day.
        
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