[HN Gopher] Firefox 87 introduces SmartBlock for Private Browsing
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Firefox 87 introduces SmartBlock for Private Browsing
        
       Author : elktea
       Score  : 347 points
       Date   : 2021-03-24 11:23 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.mozilla.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.mozilla.org)
        
       | musicale wrote:
       | Tracking vs. privacy is an arms race and the current endgame
       | looks like server-side tracking vs. VPNs/virtual clients.
       | 
       | I wonder what Mozilla's plan is for blocking/mitigating server-
       | side tracking?
        
       | Silhouette wrote:
       | If this works, it will be a very welcome development. Firefox is
       | still my preferred primary browser given who the competition is,
       | but the number of normal, everyday sites I visit that don't work
       | properly in Firefox has become irritating. It appears that quite
       | a few of those problems are caused by the security/privacy
       | blocking rather than a lack of other functionality in Firefox,
       | and it's usually the blocking by Firefox itself rather than any
       | relevant add-ons because disabling the latter doesn't solve the
       | problem.
        
         | prower wrote:
         | Could you provide examples? For the few cases i've encountered,
         | disabling Ublock Origins (before blacklisting the website
         | forever) solves the problem.
        
           | Silhouette wrote:
           | Sorry, I haven't thought to bookmark any of them. I'm just
           | talking about sites I'd come across while browsing, perhaps
           | following some interesting links from sites like HN. But on a
           | noticeable number of occasions now, dev tools confirm there
           | are script errors that seem to come from identifiers being
           | undefined and the like, and if I literally disable every add-
           | on I'm using, they are still undefined (but only in Firefox,
           | not other browsers). The changes to promote privacy in recent
           | versions of Firefox seem like the most likely explanation at
           | that point, though to be fair I have no hard evidence of that
           | either.
        
           | emayljames wrote:
           | I have encountered a few issues with uBlock and annoyances
           | filter breaking the chocolatey website (portable software
           | provider) where it leaves the site with an overlay. I've seen
           | this in a few other places too.
        
             | GoblinSlayer wrote:
             | I opened the chocolatey website with outright disabled
             | scripts and it works ok. Markup is not very bad, search
             | even works and they have noscript autohiding spinners
             | (didn't know such a thing can exist at all), I suppose it
             | was designed with noscript compatibility in mind.
        
       | UI_at_80x24 wrote:
       | Next step (please): block all 1x1 sized images.
       | 
       | The transparent pixel tracking trick is common enough now that it
       | should be blocked by default in all 'Private' modes.
        
         | metalliqaz wrote:
         | ... and tracking pixels would become 1x2, meanwhile actual 1x1
         | images used for formatting would stop working
        
           | FalconSensei wrote:
           | > actual 1x1 images used for formatting would stop working
           | 
           | I see that as a feature
        
           | falcolas wrote:
           | > 1x1 images for formatting
           | 
           | Huh? People still do this? Designers, I swear.
        
             | hjek wrote:
             | That is how indentation is implemented on HN!
        
               | maddyboo wrote:
               | Wow, you're not kidding!
               | 
               | https://i.imgur.com/5dg068V.png
        
               | [deleted]
        
               | nvr219 wrote:
               | Awesome
        
         | asicsp wrote:
         | Not sure if it is the default setting on Firefox, but they show
         | up as something like 'tracking image' for me.
        
         | MozNoz wrote:
         | https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2021/01/26/supercookie-pro...
         | partitions the image cache by the site being visited.
        
           | ape4 wrote:
           | Yes the origin of tiny images is more important (and is dealt
           | with now)
        
         | jasode wrote:
         | _> Next step (please): block all 1x1 sized images._
         | 
         | If you're not aware, the HTTP protocol specification[1] doesn't
         | have a technical way of knowing ahead of time if it's a 1x1
         | tracking pixel.
         | 
         | So the remaining realistic options are:
         | 
         | (1) block ALL <img> tags downloads which then blocks any 1x1
         | tracking pixels
         | 
         | (2) allow <img> tags but block some (and maybe most but not
         | all) 1x1 pixels via a blacklist of url domains (e.g.
         | doubleclick.net) ... and/or heuristics based on the "style"
         | attribute
         | 
         | The (1) already happens in many email clients that render HTML.
         | 
         | The (2) is happening with the ongoing cat & mouse game with
         | AdBlock, EasyList, etc
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://www.google.com/search?q=http+protocol+request+get+sy...
        
           | eli wrote:
           | (1) happens in relatively few email clients. Every major
           | client loads images by default except Thunderbird and it is
           | not common.
        
             | shultays wrote:
             | I always wondered why mail providers don't load all images
             | automatically the moment the mail is received and present a
             | cached image to the users. Wouldn't that make tracking
             | useless?
        
             | SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
             | And except gmail's web interface, which is one of the
             | biggest email clients these days.
        
               | llacb47 wrote:
               | Gmail's web interface does load images by default.
        
               | asiachick wrote:
               | It does not load them from 3rd parties. It cached them
               | and loads them from Google's servers. Open your network
               | tab and see
               | 
               | https://arstechnica.com/information-
               | technology/2013/12/gmail...
        
               | eli wrote:
               | This protects your IP address and user agent string from
               | being read by the sender, but otherwise doesn't change
               | anything
        
               | Joe8Bit wrote:
               | Technically it loads all images through a Google proxy[0]
               | which in theory prevents third parties from using images
               | for tracking. The third parties only get a 'hit' when
               | Google pulls the image into their cache, which is not
               | when you open the mail.
               | 
               | Google can still track you, but if you really care about
               | that then you're probably not using Gmail anyway.
               | 
               | [0]: https://gmail.googleblog.com/2013/12/images-now-
               | showing.html
        
               | readams wrote:
               | Gmail won't load remote images when you open the mail. It
               | will load images from Google servers that have been
               | cached.
        
               | eli wrote:
               | it doesn't pre-cache them, Google requests them in real-
               | time when you view them
        
               | fmorel wrote:
               | Gmail made changes years ago to proxy images to prevent
               | leaking info like this.
               | 
               | https://gmail.googleblog.com/2013/12/images-now-
               | showing.html
        
               | keyrat wrote:
               | This helps in that you don't connect directly to the
               | image so it doesn't leak your IP and other info that
               | would be available from the connection.
               | 
               | Marketing emails still send unique URLs for each
               | recipient so they can associate your email address with
               | opening any images and links. Google's proxy doesn't
               | remedy this.
        
               | m12k wrote:
               | Won't the image proxy make it look like all emails to
               | Gmail addresses are always opened, essentially making the
               | tracking useless?
        
               | rav wrote:
               | As far as I know, Gmail doesn't load the images until the
               | first time the user opens the message, so it
               | unfortunately doesn't make the tracking as useless as you
               | could hope.
        
             | jachee wrote:
             | Apple Mail on iOS doesn't.
        
               | eli wrote:
               | I don't think it does. Perhaps you changed the default.
               | Or if you're on a managed device, perhaps your
               | administrator did.
        
             | emayljames wrote:
             | Fairmail on Android blocks trackers.
        
             | throwaway120820 wrote:
             | ...and Outlook
        
               | eli wrote:
               | Nope, Outlook definitely loads images unless you or your
               | administrator changed the setting.
        
               | nvr219 wrote:
               | This is simply not true. Out of the box Outlook install
               | does not display images for senders not marked safe, nor
               | does Outlook Web App.
        
               | jasode wrote:
               | _> Outlook definitely loads images unless you or your
               | administrator changed the setting._
               | 
               | I just installed a fresh copy of Office 2019 in a vm and
               | Outlook's default setting doesn't load images. This
               | block-downloading-images-default behavior matches what I
               | read here: https://support.microsoft.com/en-
               | us/office/block-or-unblock-...
        
               | eli wrote:
               | Hm, I stand corrected
        
           | vlovich123 wrote:
           | Or Firefox could crowdsource the building of a bloom filter
           | of the URLs for images that are 1x1. Or you could learn 1x1
           | tracking locally since the set of pages you visit will
           | probably be similar if you just want some more general
           | protection.
           | 
           | The bigger problem is that anything like this and the
           | providers go up in size 1px at a time until it's harder to
           | distinguish from real content (at first transparent, then
           | positioned off-screen, then overlays hiding it, then visible
           | in a part of the page that doesn't get as many views, dual-
           | purposed with images/ads already on-screen, etc).
           | 
           | A better way is if Firefox just bundled an ad blocker and
           | pushed ad blocking technology forward (eg more hooks to do
           | expensive processing natively to save on power like Safari
           | does). The challenge though is that something like 100% of
           | their funding comes from an ad company.
        
             | kaba0 wrote:
             | Google pays mozilla in order to avoid a monopoly lawsuit.
             | Just because it is good for mozilla, it doesn't put any
             | sort of incentive for them to follow.
        
             | mike-cardwell wrote:
             | Bloom filter wouldn't work. The bloom filter will tell you
             | that a particular URL is "possibly" in the list. What do
             | you do then? Reject it because it _might_ be a tracking
             | image?
             | 
             | [edit] Also, this ignores being able to:
             | <iframe src="any-old-tracking-url"></iframe>       <script
             | src="any-old-tracking-url">       <link rel="stylesheet"
             | type="text/css" href="any-old-tracking-url">       <img
             | src="100px-width-tracking-image">
             | 
             | etc
        
           | dekerta wrote:
           | How about this:
           | 
           | - The browser does not load any images by default. <img> tags
           | are replaced by gray rectangles
           | 
           | - User must click on the placeholder rectangle to load the
           | image
           | 
           | - User can add image URLs to a whitelist so they load by
           | default
        
             | m_eiman wrote:
             | Enable resources from the origin domain by default, and any
             | Reasonable(tm) web page should have no problem with this.
        
             | iudqnolq wrote:
             | Ublock Origin does this.
        
               | LinuxBender wrote:
               | uBlock does not know the size until the file is
               | requested. At that point it is too late, you have
               | accessed the tracking file. That feature in uBlock is
               | meant for people trying to save bandwidth/CPU. uBlock is
               | great though, I would never browse the web without it.
        
               | iudqnolq wrote:
               | What does file size have to do with anything?
               | 
               | Edit: I forgot the grandparent mentioned them. Ublock
               | Origin implements the parent's proposal,so I mentioned
               | it.
               | 
               | Focussing on file size is a mistake because you can just
               | make the tracking image display something decorative or
               | whatever. I was referring to a solution for not loading
               | third party resources without manual approval, which
               | would need to be more general than just blocking single
               | pixels to be robust (although hueristics might be good
               | enough for some cases)
        
             | llarsson wrote:
             | You can get most of that with uBlock Origin right now!
             | "Block large media elements" and set the limit ridiculously
             | low. You now have to click to view images. Control this via
             | settings and filter lists.
        
             | jefftk wrote:
             | I can't tell if you're being serious. Is "no images without
             | clicks" something you think most people who use the web
             | would prefer?
        
               | dekerta wrote:
               | Of course not, it would have to be an opt-in feature. I'm
               | sure some people who are worried about 1x1 tracking might
               | use it though.
               | 
               | In the same way that a lot of people browse the web with
               | noscript
        
         | kgwxd wrote:
         | Is that something used on web sites? I've only heard of that in
         | emails. What purpose would that server to a site you're already
         | visiting?
        
           | amalcon wrote:
           | Concrete-ish but still simple simple version: If you visit
           | example.com, close the tab, and then load a page with an ad
           | on it, both parties would _love_ to show you an ad for
           | whatever example.com is selling. If example.com has a
           | tracking pixel for the ad domain, then this is trivial to
           | make happen.
        
             | bserge wrote:
             | OK, I understand privacy concerns with actually private
             | information like name/address/email/etc. But a tracking
             | pixel for ads? Why is this a concern? Since when?
             | 
             | Would it be so bad if people actually worked their brains a
             | bit and got smarter with online advertising (and lots of
             | other stuff)?
             | 
             | This looks suspiciously like the situation with obesity.
             | Instead of _eating less_ to lose weight, and _eating fresh_
             | to stay healthy, people just blame  "the corporations" for
             | all their troubles.
             | 
             | Seems to me like it's counterproductive. Just put up safety
             | nets for people because they can't control themselves. What
             | do you end up with? A bunch of impulsive idiots and a few
             | organizations with way too much control over them.
             | 
             | This is reality as I see it. You can be offended if you
             | want, but I'd suggest you learn not to be offended by some
             | words on a screen. That of course requires responsibility,
             | which is free but I can sell it to you for $99/month if you
             | want.
        
               | absoflutely wrote:
               | No one is suggesting advertisers tracking you is bad
               | because people "can't control themselves." People don't
               | like being tracked because, over time, private
               | information can be inferred from your viewing history.
               | Things like your age, gender, relationship status,
               | income, ethnicity, education, hobbies, health concerns,
               | diet, voting preferences, family names, etc. can all be
               | known about you with high certainty simply by having
               | trackers on the sites you visit. Ironically, this is
               | exactly the kind of data you understand being concerned
               | about before making several bad faith assumptions about
               | why people don't want to be tracked.
        
           | newscracker wrote:
           | It's just another way to do third party tracking, and could
           | be loaded from a third party site.
        
           | Macha wrote:
           | The images are on other domains used by advertiser or adtech
           | company tracking, not for the website actually showing the
           | ads.
        
           | twobitshifter wrote:
           | Look into Facebook pixel. Your browser is hitting this almost
           | everywhere.
           | 
           | https://blog.hootsuite.com/facebook-pixel/
        
             | GoblinSlayer wrote:
             | And it's the only realistically working pixel. Others
             | aren't as pervasive.
        
       | prower wrote:
       | Wouldn't it be better to have it also when browsing non-
       | privately?
        
         | go561192 wrote:
         | The new 'trim referrer by default' in Firefox 87 [1] was
         | already enabled in private mode only, some months/weeks ago. So
         | maybe they will make it default everywhere after some weeks?
         | Maybe after working out any kinks?
         | 
         | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26539673
        
         | wisniewskit wrote:
         | SmartBlock can only kick in when tracking content is actively
         | being blocked by tracking protection. If you'd like that to be
         | on all the time, you can turn strict (or custom) tracking
         | protection on in all windows, but of course the trade off is
         | that you'll likely experience more site breakage, like you
         | might in private browsing windows.
        
       | EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
       | Anything "smart" and "intelligent" is by now firmly associated
       | with "we are watching you" in my brain. Maybe not the case here
       | ... let's hope.
        
         | kaba0 wrote:
         | How about reading what it is?
        
           | EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
           | That's too much work. Is it good? I'll take your word for it.
        
             | kaba0 wrote:
             | Probably not worth reading, but then at least look at the
             | comments that describe what it does. Basically, it is a
             | dummy implementation of often used tracking libs, so that
             | if a website wants to use one, firefox will instead call
             | their own instead. Making websites both faster and more
             | privacy-friendly.
        
       | CA0DA wrote:
       | "a number of common scripts" - I wish they would have linked to
       | where to find the technical details of which scripts they are
       | emulating. Anyone know where this can be found?
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | arthuredelstein wrote:
         | The main "engine" is here: https://searchfox.org/mozilla-
         | central/source/browser/extensi...
         | 
         | The shims are here: https://searchfox.org/mozilla-
         | central/source/browser/extensi...
         | 
         | And the config file for how they are used is here:
         | https://searchfox.org/mozilla-central/source/browser/extensi...
        
         | 29083011397778 wrote:
         | Isn't it in the rest of the sentence you didn't quote?
         | 
         | > In Firefox 87, SmartBlock will silently stand in for a number
         | of common scripts classified as trackers on the Disconnect
         | Tracking Protection List.
         | 
         | Which, I assume, would be pulled from here [0]
         | 
         | [0] https://disconnect.me/trackerprotection
        
           | oktoberpaard wrote:
           | I think the question was which of those trackers have a
           | stand-in script (could be a subset of all blocked trackers)
           | and what the stand-in script looks like.
        
       | 29083011397778 wrote:
       | Based on the comparison shown between using the third party
       | scripts with tracking, and using the smart block stand-in, I
       | wonder if this could be an edge against Chrome? While the Google
       | team can push the envelope, pay for whatever is necessary, and
       | add their own standards (such as AMP, though that may be going
       | away IIRC), they're likely stuck waiting on trackers just like
       | Firefox was (on non-AMP pages).
        
         | oktoberpaard wrote:
         | I believe that the comparison was between blocking the tracking
         | script with and without a stand-in.
        
           | jefftk wrote:
           | Yes: "Previously (left), the website tiny.cloud had poor
           | loading performance in Private Browsing windows in Firefox
           | because of an incompatibility with strong Tracking
           | Protection. With SmartBlock (right), the website loads
           | properly again, while you are still fully protected from
           | trackers found on the page."
        
       | whalesalad wrote:
       | This is a great solution to a problem that seems to becoming more
       | prevalent. Reminder to devs that bolted on third party scripts
       | should not be in the critical path. Meaning, if you are doing
       | something like capturing a click event in a Google analytics
       | handler and blocking the redirect until you've tracked the click
       | - you're going to have a bad time. Many tracking scripts are
       | designed for this and will gracefully/silently fail via something
       | like an array push mechanism but I've encountered the opposite as
       | well.
       | 
       | Being an indie dev with a pihole setup has been tough - I've
       | gotta turn it off a lot for various client projects - but it's
       | also helped me build more resilient applications that work just
       | as well for people who don't have trackers enabled.
        
         | Kimitri wrote:
         | Blocking events until they are handled by the tracker's event
         | queue is quite a common problem when using PiHole. It would be
         | nice if those event handlers were registered using Google Tag
         | Manager as it would mean that those event handers would never
         | be registered if trackers are blocked.
         | 
         | By the way, I use VPN to bypass PiHole when I encounter these
         | problems. It's a lot less hassle than switching the sinkhole
         | off/on.
        
           | goalieca wrote:
           | I'm unable to use my banks app because the tracker being
           | blocked causes an error that fails very loudly and blocks
           | login. I refuse to whitelist it in pihole.
        
         | duxup wrote:
         | >I've gotta turn it off a lot for various client projects
         | 
         | As a web dev I'm running into a lot of security products
         | dorking up web projects and processes these days. It seems to
         | be increasing.
         | 
         | I've got customers with security software or other privacy
         | related tools that are constantly 'trying' to do the right
         | thing ... but just become support ticket overhead for me.
         | 
         | It's ULTRA frustrating at this point.
         | 
         | I've run into several customers now whose email scanners not
         | just block emails arbitrary, but also follow links (fine by me)
         | ... and even SUBMIT A FORM (NOT ok). Presumably to avoid some
         | malware delivery, but now they've submitted something to us on
         | a one time use form...
         | 
         | So just sending them an email means their software submits
         | accept or decline options on a form (with our without the email
         | reaching them) and we get a ton of "but I didn't get the email
         | and I didn't decline anything".
         | 
         | Meanwhile the end customer is too technically behind the ball
         | to entirely understand what is going on, and some ultra
         | aggressive IT admin just keeps doing it. If you have a lot of
         | customers it just seems to never end.
         | 
         | I kinda want to abandon email because of it but there's not a
         | lot of good options.
         | 
         | Other issues include some unknown software installed by
         | someone's kid (their IT guy) that blocks rando boring API calls
         | ... the list never seems to end.
         | 
         | I support these privacy / security initiatives 100%, we don't
         | do any insidious tracking or anything like that, but it is
         | starting to hit entirely innocuous stuff.
        
           | stinos wrote:
           | Read this and replace "web" with "desktop" and large parts
           | are still spot on, wrt virus scanners and the likes. We work
           | on a product of which the installation is a bit complicated
           | because it needs to install a bunch of other things. 95% of
           | the time that fails the reason is some overly active security
           | tool which messes up (the other 5% mainly machines which
           | haven't been updated for years) To the point that we've
           | started wondering if we wouldn't just start requiring
           | dedicated machines or at least without any of that software,
           | or even just ship PCs with the application pre-installed as
           | it would likely turn out cheaper. Unfortunately that is not
           | really an option as a web dev, so that situation is even
           | worse..
        
             | codebolt wrote:
             | I develop desktop apps that are run exclusively
             | virtualized, and don't really have to deal with either set
             | of problems. From a developer perspective I'd say it's a
             | pretty sweet spot, as you get the best of both worlds to
             | some extent.
        
               | stinos wrote:
               | That's an interesting point, but I'm not sure how well
               | this works for e.g. communication with low latency
               | harware?
        
           | cmeacham98 wrote:
           | What crazy-tier security software automatically SUBMITS A
           | FORM on incoming emails? Please tell me so I know to avoid it
           | at all costs.
           | 
           | How does this not break large parts of the existing web, ex.
           | 80+% of password reset mechanisms?
        
         | ethagnawl wrote:
         | > Being an indie dev with a pihole setup has been tough - I've
         | gotta turn it off a lot for various client projects
         | 
         | I have a family member who works in marketing and am regularly
         | asked to either turn off the pihole or add a new URL to the
         | ignored list for exactly this reason.
        
           | McDyver wrote:
           | You can create groups in pihole and select which devices can
           | bypass it. I'm not sure if you can assign specific lists per
           | group, though
        
             | llarsson wrote:
             | I believe you can!
             | 
             | https://docs.pi-hole.net/database/gravity/groups/
        
           | mosselman wrote:
           | The easiest way around this is to install a secondary browser
           | (or use a profile in firefox, but that is cumbersome) for
           | work. They could use a different DNS provider in that
           | browser. I use Brave for this and Firefox for my private
           | stuff.
           | 
           | Or they could ask their employer to pay for a VPN services
           | that comes with DNS. Your family member will then have an
           | easy to understand and easy to spot (VPN is ON) way to 'go
           | into work mode' and out of it for private.
        
             | irae wrote:
             | Or you could have a nice router, like Ubiquiti EdgeRouterX,
             | that is cheap and can create multiple networks. You pin the
             | "marketing enabled" device to a different network without
             | pihole as DNS for their device.
        
               | reaperducer wrote:
               | More wires. More gear. More complexity. More points of
               | failure. Ugh.
        
             | paride5745 wrote:
             | This is exactly what I do.
             | 
             | Brave for work, Firefox for private.
        
               | reaperducer wrote:
               | It would be interesting if Firefox could release two
               | nearly identical browsers: Firefox Home, and Firefox
               | Work. The only difference between the two is the name and
               | the color of the icon.
               | 
               | With both programs in their computers, or both apps on
               | their phones, people could more easily isolate the two
               | phases of life, without going through all the rigamarole
               | of profiles.
        
               | ethagnawl wrote:
               | I haven't gotten into the habit of using them, but I
               | believe this is how the Multi-Account Containers add-on
               | works.
        
               | petronio wrote:
               | You've really just described profiles, Firefox just needs
               | to make them easier to use like Chrome. On Chrome they're
               | easier to find, allow you to configure the profile icon,
               | and give you the option to create a desktop shortcut to
               | the profile. Mobile is probably more tricky.
        
               | kilburn wrote:
               | I use Firefox Developer Edition alongside regular firefox
               | precisely for that purpose: https://www.mozilla.org/en-
               | US/firefox/developer/
        
               | GoblinSlayer wrote:
               | You can set a skin or persona per profile, and they will
               | look different.
        
               | erikbye wrote:
               | https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/multi-
               | account...
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | _Being an indie dev with a pihole setup has been tough - I've
         | gotta turn it off a lot for various client projects_
         | 
         | When you get enough established paying clients, consider
         | firewalling work gear from home gear.
         | 
         | My client work computers are not my personal computers. My
         | client computers have their own router that is separate from my
         | personal router. At one time I had my personal internet on
         | cable, and my clients on DSL, but unfortunately that's not
         | possible where I am now.
         | 
         | I get a lot of peace of mind from knowing the two are isolated
         | from one another. The only thing they share is a desk. But when
         | work time is done, client laptops go into the closet. Helps
         | with the work-home balance, which is harder working from home.
        
           | xoa wrote:
           | Any particular reason you don't just use VLANs? It sounds
           | like you're describing a textbook case for them. Nearly any
           | routing software should have a firewall too and the whole
           | point is handling layer 3. Even for purely your own stuff
           | segmenting off various devices into their own subnets can
           | still be handy. If you want you even with a single WAN
           | connection you could do something like get a cheap $5/mo
           | VPS|droplet|etc, run wireguard on it, then route all traffic
           | from a given VLAN through it. That'd give you similar WAN
           | isolation.
        
             | reaperducer wrote:
             | _Any particular reason you don 't just use VLANs?_
             | 
             | Because the router I own is better than the router I don't
             | own.
             | 
             | Further, everything you describe is a bunch of complexity I
             | don't need in my life. My time is too valuable to spend
             | fiddling with configurations every time some piece of kit
             | does a software update.
             | 
             | The way I do it, I plug a wireless router into one ISP, and
             | a different wireless router into another ISP, and I'm done
             | with it. Simple and clean. I'd rather spend my time with my
             | family than "handling layer 3."
        
               | xoa wrote:
               | Appreciate the reply and everyone has their own
               | circumstances. But it doesn't sound like you've actually
               | considered it or know anything about it which I guess is
               | the basic answer to my question.
               | 
               | > _Because the router I own is better than the router I
               | don 't own._
               | 
               | That's obviously not necessarily true. By this logic all
               | upgrades for all time are pointless. Why get a better
               | CPU/GPU/SSD? "The CPU/GPU/SSD I own is better than the
               | CPU/GPU/SSD I don't own" after all. Except it's not,
               | hence the interest in upgrading.
               | 
               | > _Further, everything you describe is a bunch of
               | complexity I don 't need in my life._
               | 
               | Your setup sounds much, much more complicated actually.
               | 
               | > _My time is too valuable to spend fiddling with
               | configurations every time some piece of kit does a
               | software update._
               | 
               | This isn't actually a thing. If anything, a core reason
               | for using VLANs is precisely being able to just have any
               | system at all and plug it in/join network and have it all
               | be isolated and routing the right place with zero
               | configuration.
               | 
               | > _The way I do it, I plug a wireless router into one
               | ISP, and a different wireless router into another ISP,
               | and I 'm done with it. Simple and clean._
               | 
               | Sounds complex and PITA, not least because it requires
               | multiple ISPs and associated infrastructure, billing,
               | tech support if needed, dealing with any security issues
               | in their bottom barrel AIOs, etc. It's not free either,
               | dual ISPs at least around here could easily add
               | $400-1200/year. That's real money, even at the low end
               | it's more money than a basic quality switch+router would
               | cost.
        
               | fshbbdssbbgdd wrote:
               | I've noticed a trend that when visiting the homes of
               | network engineers and sysadmins who have some custom
               | network setup, the wifi is more likely to be broken than
               | the average person who has something off-the-shelf like a
               | Google Wifi puck.
        
               | erikbye wrote:
               | They just claim it's broken.
        
           | algesten wrote:
           | If you got good enough router/access points, you could create
           | separate VLANs for client vs private.
           | 
           | Thinking about it, I might just do that when I get back home
           | :)
        
         | godshatter wrote:
         | As a person who has been using NoScript or the equivalent for
         | years now, I appreciate this. It also helps out your clients.
         | Instead of a blank page or a broken one, I would now presumably
         | see a functioning page. While they may not get any ad revenue
         | through me, I can't buy their product if they don't let me on
         | the site. Or review it, or tell people about it, etc. There
         | would be a chance now that I would come away from their website
         | with a positive impression instead of hitting the back button
         | and trying the next search result or just writing them off
         | completely.
         | 
         | If you care about privacy at all, the web is a very broken
         | place.
        
       | newscracker wrote:
       | > The SmartBlock stand-ins are bundled with Firefox: no actual
       | third-party content from the trackers are loaded at all, so there
       | is no chance for them to track you this way.
       | 
       | Those third party scripts may not be able to track, but I wonder
       | if the act of loading the stand-in scripts quickly (?) from
       | within Firefox would lead to other issues.
       | 
       | > We also want to acknowledge the NoScript and uBlock Origin
       | teams for helping to pioneer this approach.
       | 
       | Not to belittle the effort by others and other projects, but
       | these two extensions, along with some others (like Privacy
       | Badger), have helped users immensely in protecting themselves.
        
         | irae wrote:
         | > I wonder if the act of loading the stand-in scripts quickly
         | (?) from within Firefox would lead to other issues.
         | 
         | Mozilla does everything in the open, if you care to look at
         | their bugtracker you will probably find all the conversation
         | there, pros and cons, etc.
        
         | wisniewskit wrote:
         | Hi, lead SmartBlock dev here. My regular job at Mozilla
         | involves diagnosing web sites for web compatibility issues, so
         | I definitely share your concerns -- I routinely see sites
         | relying on scripts loading in a specific order, but not coding
         | themselves in a way that ensures that they actually do.
         | 
         | I haven't received any reports so far during the six-month-or-
         | so nightly cycle where SmartBlock was only on nightly builds,
         | so I'm optimistic. In the worst case we might be able to just
         | add in an artificial delay to fix that, but of course I'd
         | rather waste user's time like that unless that's 100%
         | necessary.
         | 
         | And ultimately, problems are at least as likely (in my
         | experience) to manifest with scripts loading too slowly, or not
         | loading at all due to random networking hiccups.. many sites
         | just aren't very tolerant at all of script loading failures.
        
         | jefftk wrote:
         | > I wonder if the act of loading the stand-in scripts quickly
         | (?) from within Firefox would lead to other issues.
         | 
         | That's essentially the same as if they are loaded from the
         | browser cache. What sort of issues are you concerned about?
        
       | disposekinetics wrote:
       | Is this Firefox adopting LocalCDN/Decentraleyes, or am I totally
       | misunderstanding what's going on.
        
         | oktoberpaard wrote:
         | It's different, as Decentraleyes hosts a local copy of
         | libraries like jQuery, while the new Firefox feature is about
         | emulating tracking scripts with a minimal set of features to
         | trick the site into thinking it is present.
        
           | disposekinetics wrote:
           | That's a great idea. Thank you for clarifying.
        
       | [deleted]
        
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