[HN Gopher] Obedience Training
___________________________________________________________________
Obedience Training
Author : never-the-bride
Score : 27 points
Date : 2021-03-23 06:31 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (lareviewofbooks.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (lareviewofbooks.org)
| mgarfias wrote:
| Oh god Koehler. Just no.
|
| If any of y'all reading this need dog operational training, seek
| out trainers that have gone to the Michael Ellis school for dog
| trainers, and use his methods.
|
| Wife breeds white Swiss shepherds, has been to a few of his
| classes, and it's how we raise our own pups. I have trained
| multiple dogs now, have done obed competitions, agility, and even
| some protection work.
|
| Don't use positive only, and don't use the koehler crap.
| me_me_me wrote:
| can you actually explain your opinion?
| mgarfias wrote:
| Sure: Koehler is usually improperly applied, using
| compulsion. Koehler as practiced by Koehler is a very very
| slow method of training. Put the dog in a sit, put him in a
| sit again, and again, until he learns to sit.
|
| Ellis style is all about letting the dog decide his actions,
| and then rewarding it when it makes the choice you want. for
| instance, to teach a pup to sit, we lure the dog into a sit
| using a treat. when he sits, you mark the reward with a word
| (some people use clickers) and then treat. You end up with a
| pavlovian response, where when the dog hears "yes" or "good"
| he expects a treat, and gets excited. After awhile the dog
| will start sitting on his own, and you mark/reward that.
| Later on you can add in the command, when the dog is
| performing the action on its own.
|
| The difference between the two methods is that with the ellis
| style, you end up with a dog that WANTS to work, and looks to
| you for direction rather than being dead inside.
|
| I could go on more, but don't really have the time.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| Never heard of either of those, but I absolutely agree with
| the Ellis guy. My family runs a successful czechoslovakian
| wolfdog kennel, I have been interacting with this (rather
| difficult) dog breed since I was a baby and this is how I
| was taught to train dogs. When you're a ten year old kid,
| forcing (or fighting) the animal is not an option.
| GlenTheMachine wrote:
| Our first dog was a rescue dog that had come out of a
| terrific working Australian Shepherd line in Texas. One of
| the absolute hard requirements to adopt her was that we
| would commit to taking her through at least a basic
| obedience course, so we signed up at the local dog gym, the
| only local gym - there were no choices.
|
| They used (parts of) Koehler, the slow way. We used a pinch
| collar and a long lead, and a lot of treats, and went very
| slowly. In total we spent probably 18 months in obedience
| classes, went all the way through advanced. We spent at
| least 30 minutes a day, every day, working on training.
|
| It worked. She started out being the worst behaved dog in
| the class, to the point that my wife disavowed she knew me
| when I had the dog. But by the end, she was the best dog in
| the class and it wasn't close. And she turned out to be the
| best dog to ever live. She literally saved my daughter's
| life twice. We could let her out into our unfenced front
| yard and know, without a doubt, that she would scope out
| the property lines and alert us if anything crossed them
| but not go over them herself... unless the kids ran off, in
| which case she would tail them and bark when my wife called
| to let her know where they were. It was like having a third
| adult in the family.
|
| It's been ten years since she passed, at age 15, and I
| still cry when I think about her.
| mgarfias wrote:
| Done right, koehler can work. Done wrong it's abusive.
| harshreality wrote:
| For those interested, it's much more than just using a
| positive reinforcer. It's a system that has multiple
| conditioned stimuli (called "markers" or "bridges" in
| various positive-conditioning contexts) for different
| purposes, with very specific uses that are not to be mixed.
| The training system is (rightly) very cautious about using
| aversives (direct or conditioned) except in specific
| limited cases for well-understood purposes and with an
| awareness and understanding of the trade-offs involved.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe0-oqqoXvw
| FriendlyNormie wrote:
| Without reading the article, it's still obvious to anyone but
| the most comatose mouthbreathing vegetable what he means. You
| can't discipline a dog without physical violence, period.
|
| Why is this waste of time blogpost from an idiot even on
| "hacker news".
| awillen wrote:
| As the old saying goes, if you put ten dog trainers in a room,
| the only thing they'll agree on is that nine of them have no
| idea what they're doing.
| anonporridge wrote:
| Judge a tree by its fruit I guess.
|
| I wonder if someone has tried to try to do a research study
| to compare the dogs that are outcomes of different schools of
| training. I imagine it would be hard to define and measure
| 'desirable' outcomes.
| heffer wrote:
| It has been attempted, albeit with a relatively small group
| of subjects and mostly focused on aversive vs. positive
| reinforcement methods: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/ar
| ticle?id=10.1371/journal...
| mgarfias wrote:
| Maybe look at international competition, and see what kind
| of training everyone has converged on?
|
| There's no one training Koehler in high level IPG
| (IPO/schutzhund) or one of the ring sports.
|
| I'm also not aware of actual LE/Mil doing anything Koehler.
| They're all using all four quadrants of the operant
| conditioning.
| anonporridge wrote:
| I'm sure it's easier to judge training methods for
| competition or legit working dogs where there are
| objective outcomes to measure.
|
| It's less obvious for the average person who just wants a
| well behaved pet.
| robomartin wrote:
| Dog training has about as many opinions as there are dog breeds.
| I have focused on training German Shepherd Dogs (GSD) most of my
| adult life. Not as an occupation but rather as a requirement to
| owning them and a hobby.
|
| When we got our first GSD's, decades ago, I had no clue what I
| was doing. We hired a local trainer recommended by the local pet
| shop. She was great for about four months and that was that. She
| was way out of her league once these dogs turned about six months
| of age. They were assertive and smart. I knew nothing at the time
| and still knew we needed a different approach. No amount of
| clicking and treats was making a difference.
|
| We were about to have our first kid. My requirement was simple: A
| kid should be able to reliably walk the two GSD's simultaneously
| without a leash. That last part is because, if you can achieve
| that the leash simply becomes a formality. An out of control dog
| on a leash can be very dangerous. Never mind strangers, a 120
| pound GSD can make an 80 pound kid go flying if it decides to
| bolt after another dog, or worse, cross the street.
|
| We got another trainer someone recommended for more assertive
| dogs. The guy was a complete asshole. Violent. No. He lasted a
| week.
|
| I don't remember how, we finally got connected with a Schutzhund
| community and ended up hiring this young girl (21 at the time)
| who trained GSD's for all aspects of the competition. That's when
| I finally went to "Dog Training University". It was amazing. I
| learned so much.
|
| Yes, we used slip collars and e-collars. NO! They are NOT torture
| devices. Anyone who uses them to hurt the dog has no clue what
| they are doing AT ALL. Properly used they are no different from
| touching the dog or a gentle tap. In particular, e-collars are
| one of the most misunderstood tools. This is terrible because it
| is actually the best tool by far. Again, properly used. If anyone
| is interested I can certainly expand on this.
|
| Our dogs went from being almost impossible to control to being
| able to walk off-leash just about anywhere without any issues
| whatsoever. The level of attention and obedience was almost
| incredible. Here's a simple example: I could go to a busy dog
| park, tell them to sit-stay, walk hundreds of feet away from them
| and they would stay there no-matter-what. Somewhere I have a
| video of a whole gaggle of dogs running in circles around my two
| dogs sitting under a tree while waiting for my command from the
| other end of this football field sized dog park. From that
| distance I could tell them both to lie down, sit up, advance (one
| at a time or together) stop, lie down again, or run towards me.
| And no, these dogs were not "dead" or beaten into submission, in
| fact, they loved to train so much we did it every day (which is
| what it takes) for hours (I worked nights back then).
|
| Since then I have trained many other GSD's. Not at the same
| level, I just don't have that kind of time any more. We currently
| have three GSD's. They are very assertive. They are not
| pushovers. However, when my little girl was seven years old she
| had full command of them no matter what the situation.
|
| That said:
|
| I am very familiar with Michael Ellis's methods. Being that this
| has been a hobby for decades I have consumed a great deal of
| material from top trainers. He is one of them. I own a bunch of
| his DVD's and books.
|
| I would definitely recommend Michael's methods for most house pet
| dogs. If applied correctly you will have a very well behaved dog.
| Getting to that level of full off-leash control requires a
| tremendous amount of work, regardless of the method one might
| use.
|
| The caveat with regards to Michael's --or any other method for
| that matter-- is that they don't tend to work very well at all
| for dogs that are on the assertive-to-aggressive (or potentially
| aggressive) scale. Have you ever tried to stop a person who is in
| full rage mode just using words and positive rewards? I don't
| think there's anyone alive who has done this successfully.
|
| We must not humanize dogs. They are animals and, as such, capable
| of some pretty horrific behavior. They are not kids that you can
| fix by cuddling-up with them. In fact, stuff like that will ruin
| a dog more often than not. Dogs understand, want and react well
| to structure. Provide that and they will thrive. Provide chaos
| and you'll end-up with problems. One of my current GSD's is big
| and super-strong and assertive as hell. Pure breed and bread to
| work. He would fit very well as a military or police dog. And yet
| we have full control. Happiest dog in the world. You'd never know
| the level of training he has except when my daughter can make him
| stop, sit, down, approach, retreat, etc., without saying a single
| word.
|
| One of my absolute favorite series of books and methods are by
| The Monks of New Skete. Regardless of the breed you own, these
| books should be required reading for dog owners.
|
| Here's a fun look at Schutzhund (my dogs could do all of this and
| more):
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTZmIFdgU2M
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn3VghnNEpc
| fpgaminer wrote:
| I don't know much about training, so I can't comment on which
| methods work best like other commentators. But I can confirm that
| anecdotally obedience training, at least in some forms, is like
| magic.
|
| We adopted a shelter dog, so she came with a slew of emotional
| scars. She started showing signs of potential aggression, and
| apparently was on her "third chance" from the shelter already. We
| didn't want her to have to go back yet again, nor did we want to
| risk anyone or her getting hurt. So we searched around and found
| a trainer.
|
| Again, I don't know what "method" this trainer used. But it was a
| single (expensive) session, 1.5hrs long, in our home with a
| former K-9 trainer. Afterwards it was like flipping a light
| switch on her. She no longer barked/growled/lunged at passersby
| or even other dogs. She's perfectly calm around other aggressive
| dogs. She won't leave or enter through doors without our
| permission. We can stop her dead if she chases after an animal in
| the backyard.
|
| And it's not just us; our vets continually re-affirm how much
| better behaved she is while with them.
|
| All that after one session and continued re-enforcement from us.
|
| We also crate trained her, so sleep isn't an issue. That was
| another amazing transformation; going from crying all night to
| getting up and leaving the couch for her crate when it's past her
| bedtime and looking back at us like "you guys going to bed or
| what, geez!"
|
| As for separation anxiety, which she definitely has, I came up
| with my own technique for that. First, we stopped crating her
| when we left. It caused her too much anxiety. But that didn't
| help completely. People suggested playing music, but that just
| made her more anxious as well. As did giving her treats before
| leaving. The thing that really worked: before we leave I just
| talk to her and tell her that we're leaving, tell her if we'll be
| back "soon" or "later", and tell her she's a good girl.
|
| It's weird, but after a couple times, it now works like a charm.
| She definitely doesn't like it, but she immediately settles down
| and lets us leave without trouble. And she doesn't wreck the
| house while we're gone.
|
| I'm not sure how much of what I say she "understands", or what
| part of my magical incantation is actually salient. She has an
| incredibly accurate sense of time, so I figured she might be able
| to correlate "soon" or "later" to how long we're gone. Hopefully
| that's communicating some expectations to her that help her be
| less anxious.
|
| It's amazing the transformation a little training can do. To go
| from an aggressive shelter dog on her third lease on life, to one
| of the better trained puppies we know is an incredible journey.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-03-23 23:02 UTC)