[HN Gopher] Early-Retirement Update
___________________________________________________________________
Early-Retirement Update
Author : dkarp
Score : 301 points
Date : 2021-03-22 17:04 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (livingafi.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (livingafi.com)
| christiansakai wrote:
| Life is a like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're
| gonna get.
| croes wrote:
| In Germany, the contents are written on the back of the box.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| What's German for "You must be fun at parties?"
| phaemon wrote:
| Germans don't tend to use sarcasm, so that phrase doesn't
| exist.
| smnrchrds wrote:
| If it's written in German, I still wouldn't know.
| ericmay wrote:
| To me the emphasis on the FIRE community should be on the FI part
| of the equation.
|
| For many people in many countries, there is no concept of
| "retirement". It seems so silly to me that people would go and
| say "I'll work really hard and do all this stuff for 40 years so
| I can sit around and do nothing for another 30 years".
|
| What's the point? It's unsustainable. It's like doing a crash
| diet - it may work for a minute, but to have long-term results
| you need to have a lifestyle change.
|
| Focusing on financial independence means you can achieve better
| long-term results. Living within your means over the course of 80
| years instead of balls-to-the-wall for 30-40 and then a quick and
| silent death for 30 seems to be a better course of action and
| would lead to longer lifespan.
|
| Once you reach financial independence - whatever that means to
| you - you can take on other interests. It could be working at a
| startup, or a non-profit, or volunteering, or gardening. You name
| it. But financial independence enables such things. FI > RE.
| californical wrote:
| Yes, this!
|
| Having enough money that you don't need to worry too much about
| work seems like 95% of the benefit. Spoken as someone fairly
| early working towards FI.
|
| Having a paid off house, no debt, and enough money to survive
| tragedy unscathed is really the goal. I want to be able to work
| whatever job makes me happy without feeling the need to be
| competing for the highest salary. Take a few months off work
| here and there without sweating about getting a new job. To let
| my future wife or I stay home with the hypothetical kid without
| needing to think about the money.
| kelnos wrote:
| Ok, but just imagine for a moment that working a job doesn't
| make you happy. Consider that most employment arrangements
| aren't all that flexible. You can't just suddenly decide to
| disappear for two months because you feel like it, whenever
| you want, and expect there to be a job waiting for you when
| you get back.
|
| This extends all the way down into little things. Maybe I'd
| like to go for a walk right now, but I can't because I have a
| work meeting in 10 minutes.
|
| I doubt there is anyone in the world who can say they are
| 100% happy with their job 100% of the time. While you might
| not be 100% happy 100% of the time in retirement, that is
| something you can control and change. You generally can't
| change many of the things about a job that make you unhappy.
|
| I just feel like most people are so socially conditioned to
| believe that working a job is The Correct Way To Live Your
| Life that they simply can't imagine anything different.
|
| > _I want to be able to work whatever job makes me happy
| without feeling the need to be competing for the highest
| salary._
|
| Why does it have to be a job? Why can't you just _do things_
| that make you happy? Why is it necessary that happiness falls
| into the narrow range of an employer-employee (or freelancer-
| client) relationship?
| californical wrote:
| I get where you're coming from, but getting to a place of
| being truly retired with enough money to live indefinitely,
| and account for most disasters like the one in this post,
| is much more difficult. Especially with healthcare in the
| US.
|
| I'm not saying having enough money to retire forever isn't
| better. I get that you have even more options. But why not
| also be semi-FI all along the way and afford yourself those
| things that make you happy, even if it means you save more
| slowly and retire a bit less early. It's about the right
| balance.
|
| I'd rather take 3-months of unpaid leave to backpack Europe
| at age 30 than skip the trip in a saving-frenzy to retire.
| That same backpacking trip would be way less enjoyable at
| age 40, or even impossible with kids.
|
| Plus, my job does make me happy -- I know it may not
| forever, which is why I save so much money. But assuming I
| keep enjoying work, it doesn't hurt to keep making money
| even after RE. I really just see FI as giving yourself
| options.
|
| I don't foresee it being a huge event when I hit my "FIRE
| number" since I'll already be living the life that I want.
| kelnos wrote:
| Oh, absolutely agree. But everyone needs to find that
| balance for themselves. For some people that balance may
| truly involve working themselves to near death in their
| 20s and 30s so they can retire with a more-than-
| comfortable lifestyle. That's not for me, but I see no
| problem with someone doing that if that's what they truly
| want.
|
| I'm lucky that I'll be able to retire soon and still be
| financially secure against all but the worst medical
| disasters (agree that the US sucks in this regard),
| medical disasters that would likely bankrupt me even if I
| was working (and would likely mean I couldn't work
| anymore anyway). I know this isn't possible for many
| people in the FIRE crowd, let alone most people in
| general. I've also been lucky that I've been able to
| travel a lot in my 30s and a decent amount in my 20s,
| despite working hard for most of it. So it's not like
| I've been all-work-and-no-play up until now; it's a
| balance I've been mostly happy with (certainly with some
| exceptions), but I know others might want a different
| balance (in either direction), and that's ok.
|
| Just a bit on "enjoying work": I really want to make sure
| we're talking about the same thing. For the most part I
| enjoy and love the work I do, but overall I don't really
| enjoy "the job". I don't enjoy the meetings, the process
| that caters to the lowest common denominator, the
| politics, the fight to get things done the way I think
| they should get done. There are definitely some aspects
| of my current work that I probably couldn't do without
| all the other stuff (because they require a large
| organization with considerable financial resources). But
| there's a lot of it that I could do on my own, or (for
| example) in a small group of people working on an open
| source project. Retirement for me doesn't mean I stop
| being a software developer; it means I stop developing
| software on an employer's terms, and stop doing it for a
| profit motive. And if I get temporarily (or even
| permanently) tired of it, I can simply choose to do
| something else, on a moment's notice, without financial
| consequences. I'm not sure if this is the popular
| definition, but to me "retirement" means I do whatever I
| want -- including "work" -- without a care toward how it
| affects my income, and with the ability to shift my
| priorities on a dime.
| fuyu wrote:
| Wanting to spend more time doing things such and volunteering
| or gardening are _exactly_ reasons why someone might pursue
| early retirement. It sounds like you agree with the concept but
| are getting distracted by terminology.
| ericmay wrote:
| Yea or maybe the terminology itself is bad and the "RE"
| aspect of FIRE might need to go away. If you're volunteering
| for example are you not working? What is work? Definitions
| definitions...
|
| But that's my fault. I wasn't specific enough. :) thanks!
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Living within your means over the course of 80 years instead
| of balls-to-the-wall for 30-40 and then a quick and silent
| death for 30 seems to be a better course of action and would
| lead to longer lifespan._
|
| I think you have two things wrong here:
|
| 1) Most people don't plan to live "balls-to-the-wall" for 30-40
| years before retiring. They work hard (maybe too hard!) so they
| can retire early. They don't live like kings and queens for
| that time; that would probably make it impossible to build that
| nest egg and actually retire. To do this right, you need to
| build enough wealth to maintain your lifestyle post-retirement.
| For most folks this means that their pre-retirement lifestyle
| won't be particularly extravagant.
|
| 2) Just because you retire, it doesn't mean you have a "silent
| death for 30" years. That's absurd, and plays into the whole
| "life is meaningless without work" idea, which I categorically
| reject. Maybe life has no meaning for _you_ without work, but
| that 's you, and not everyone. There's plenty to do in those
| last 30 years of life that will keep me fulfilled, happy, and
| busy, and none of it needs to have anything to do with drawing
| a paycheck.
|
| "Retiring" doesn't mean not living, or even not "working". It
| just means that you get to do whatever you want without
| worrying about whether or not you're getting paid for it. Which
| is essentially what FI is as well, just with the added bit that
| you've decided to avoid gainful employment.
| ericmay wrote:
| Just wanted to say I read this, and thanks. Great points
| you've brought up here.
|
| I guess I'd say I would need to specify my definition of
| "work" a bit more. I wouldn't view work strictly as
| employment, but as productive tasks with some means to an
| end, but that could also include hobbies like cooking, or
| wood working, for example.
|
| I would definitely challenge from a general standpoint any
| life where you're not doing _something_ productive. Not in
| the hustle culture sense, but in the means-to-an-end sense.
|
| I do think we are in agreement though. Financial independence
| is the most important aspect here.
| kelnos wrote:
| Sure, retirement and those other kinds of work you mention
| aren't incompatible. I think when we talk about retirement
| and not "working", we're specifically talking about not
| having a job that pays money. Though many people still
| consider themselves retired while holding a part-time job
| or working freelance some number of hours.
|
| This is why in part I think the distinction between "FI"
| and "RE" is pretty small. I absolutely agree with you that
| the important part is financial independence, getting to a
| point where if you quit or lost your job tomorrow, and
| never brought in any labor-related income again, you'd be
| fine. From there it's just defining what life means to you.
| You might stick with a 9-to-5 for a while because that
| makes you happy. You might drop to part-time. You might
| quit entirely and focus on personal projects and interests
| (like the hobbies you mention). Or you might take 5 years
| to focus on personal projects, but then take a full-time
| job for a couple years just because you feel like it, with
| the knowledge that you can quit at any time if you don't
| like it.
|
| > _I would definitely challenge from a general standpoint
| any life where you're not doing something productive._
|
| Eh... if someone decided to retire and spend every day of
| the rest of their life going to the beach and lying in the
| sun, that's... fine? It's not what I'd do with my
| retirement, but I don't think I'm qualified to tell someone
| else what to do with their life, especially if they're
| financially independent and aren't a drag on anyone else.
|
| But yeah, for me, I do agree that I want to be productive
| to some extent. But I love the idea of even that being
| infinitely flexible. Right now if I don't feel like being
| productive I can dick around on HN for a little while (like
| I am right now), but I have to limit myself, and get back
| to work soon, hoping that my short break will help me gain
| some desire to be productive. My midafternoon time is not
| my own; to a very real extent it belongs to my employer. I
| feel guilty about not being able to focus on work right
| now, and I hate that feeling. If it were just me doing
| whatever I want to do, I might feel guilty about not
| finishing a fun woodworking project, but that guilt would
| be isolated to myself: I'm not depriving someone else (like
| an employer) of something they're entitled to.
|
| And with that... back to work.
| ericmay wrote:
| Another great post. Thanks a lot.
|
| I definitely would say "doing nothing" - however we would
| define that isn't something I'd put a moral judgement on.
| I think maybe the colloquial "relax on the beach" isn't
| really possible long term. Maybe a year at most. I think
| most people historically at least just say on the couch.
| Contrast with maybe the idea (reality is questionable) of
| the old man in the Italian country side or woman in
| Okinawa tending to their gardens and walking to the
| market each day. At least maybe there are some items to
| discuss further when thinking about what retirement
| really means.
|
| Really enjoying your posts. Thanks for sharing your
| thoughts.
| neogodless wrote:
| What surprises me is the lack of creativity that comes from
| people planning to work into their 60s. To be sure, in this
| year of a pandemic, not working but also having a lot of other
| options outlawed or discouraged made for a less than ideal
| lifestyle. (Source: I was unemployed for six months.)
|
| Even so, the freedom to... saw/split/stack firewood when the
| weather was perfect, build a movie nook for my wife, go on bike
| rides on a Tuesday afternoon in a warm breeze, take our dog on
| a long, leisurely walk at a local park, read a book in the
| shade out on the deck...
|
| ...or pre/post-pandemic visit a brewery or winery on a slow
| Thursday (and all other forms of travel that are less ideal
| right now.)
|
| But also FIRE doesn't demand that you "work extra hard" during
| the accumulation phase. At least, I have been fortunate enough
| to avoid that fate. I've rarely worked overtime in my entire
| life _as a software developer_. And of course, given this
| career and income, living within my means (actually well below
| them) doesn 't mean horrible deprivation, either. Sure, I can't
| go on a $20k weekend trip on a whim (at least not
| _regularly_!), and we have to research our options for vacation
| so we don 't blow a lot of money, but again - it doesn't take
| much creativity to have a really rewarding life that doesn't
| necessitate spending at or above your means. (Again some of
| this assumes you have a "good" income. There are stories of
| those with lower income making it work, but the challenges
| change!)
| tikhonj wrote:
| > _Even so, the freedom to... saw /split/stack firewood when
| the weather was perfect, build a movie nook for my wife, go
| on bike rides on a Tuesday afternoon in a warm breeze, take
| our dog on a long, leisurely walk at a local park, read a
| book in the shade out on the deck..._
|
| I had a job where I could do this. On any given week I worked
| normal(ish) hours, but I had pretty close to full control
| over _when_ and _where_ I worked, with significant autonomy
| on _what_ and _how_. I spent most of my afternoons outside
| unless I really felt like working on my project. At the same
| time, being at a company gave me resources, teammates and
| scope I would have struggled to recreate working on my own
| open-source projects. I had just come off a one-year break
| and I ended up enjoying working more than I did not working.
| It 's a real shame that we can't have more jobs like this; it
| requires giving people a level of trust and autonomy most
| organizations can't stomach.
|
| If I could arrange a role like that into the indefinite
| future, I'd have absolutely no questions about working well
| into my 60s, and not at all thanks to a "lack of creativity".
| vsareto wrote:
| A few people ITT seem to think FI people just do nothing all
| day. I'm kinda wondering if you folks know of anything but
| work.
| stocknoob wrote:
| ITT: "Why would I want the choice about when/if/where/how I
| work? I want my exact work specifications to be imposed on
| me, without any negotiating leverage."
| esturk wrote:
| Despite some in this thread decrying the author, judging him on
| his life choices, etc. I feel the main culprit in this case is
| still the healthcare issue.
|
| The problem in the US is that proper healthcare is tied to a job.
| If the author had proper healthcare (say offered by the
| Government), he may still be in retirement.
|
| For our European counterparts, ask yourself this. Would 900k euro
| in savings be enough for retirement in Europe?
| twiddling wrote:
| The healthcare issue is a huge one in the US in holding back
| folks. The patchwork of ACA coverage still being brokered
| through private insurance companies is a PITA.
| greedo wrote:
| I have a high school friend who retired around 40. He came from a
| family of money, but worked in corporate IT sales for a large,
| well known vendor. We had lost touch with each other until 5
| years ago when he reached out to me via FB and wanted to call. We
| spoke for a few hours about our lives, and I realized he was a
| lost soul.
|
| He had a wife and children, and had been retired for over twenty
| years. His kids were now all grown and out of the house, and it
| seemed like he was asking "what should I do now." In contrast to
| him, my kids were in middle school, and retirement was 15 years
| away, at a much lower standard of living.
|
| My friend had spent the last two decades traveling; he would
| travel to a country, live there for 3-6 months and immerse
| himself in it. His family would stay for a while, but then return
| to the States when school started, while he would remain. He
| seemed very curious about "normal" life which he seemed to have
| growing up. His father was in financial services, and he had a
| stay at home mom.
|
| I envied my friend's financial independence, but nothing of his
| retirement life other than the opportunity to travel on a whim.
| Life without moorings is to be adrift, forever seeking the
| oxytocin rush of new things, and then being disappointed when it
| fades.
|
| I haven't spoken to him since, though he randomly posts to FB; I
| hope he's found real happiness and acceptance in his wanderings.
| dencodev wrote:
| I like this article around this topic. I read it many years
| years ago and it rang very true for me. Traveling can be fun
| but it doesn't solve the problem needing purpose (for those
| with that need).
|
| https://medium.com/personal-growth/travel-is-no-cure-for-the...
| happilyFIREd wrote:
| "Money magnifies who you already are"
| slumdev wrote:
| "Public Service Announcement: If you've EVER called your wife
| your 'partner,' then your bench press is 50% of your wife's
| boyfriend's weight." -- @timotheeology
| pcglue wrote:
| 2.8M nut, about 50/50 in regular/retirement accounts. I'm mid
| 40's, married with two pre-teen kids, annual expenses of $80K,
| live in HCOL area (Southern California). Would you FIRE in this
| situation? Would you take a year long hiatus? As much as I would
| like to FIRE, I can't/won't, even though the "numbers" say I
| probably could. But seriously considering a months to year long
| career break/sabbatical/hiatus, because I'm extremely extremely
| burnt out. Has anyone here taken a gap year in their 40's/50's?
| Was it difficult to find another job?
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| Another approach to FIRE that I think is actually more
| fulfilling is to gradually reduce working hours until
| "retired".
|
| For example, explore a position that lets you work 4 days a
| week and take Mondays or Fridays off. Later, switch to part
| time or contracting 6 months on 6 months off.
|
| I don't personally think gap years will be very fulfilling
| unless it's something like a whole family 1 year vacation where
| you all go and live someplace.
| ghaff wrote:
| That's assuming your preference is to have shorter/easier
| weeks as opposed to taking chunks of time off--which is my
| preference.
| pcglue wrote:
| I would absolutely love to find a software position with
| 24-32 hour week, but I have not heard of such a thing, short
| of going out on your own and freelancing. No employer I know
| of (in software field, I don't want to go work retail) would
| consider allowing employees to work part time.
|
| I have considered contracting or even freelancing too, but
| I've been a W2 worker my entire career. I'd have to look into
| how to do this.
| ben7799 wrote:
| It's a good question for your financial advisor assuming you
| have one.
|
| One of their jobs is crunching the numbers to answer the exact
| question you're asking.
|
| We recently went through this with our financial advisor. We're
| the same age, only have one kid, east coast HCOL area, live
| well below our means, very similar savings as you.
|
| Rough answer was we could do a normal retirement in our early
| 50s if we could get closer to $6M nest egg with an assumption
| of spending a bit higher than your current expenses in
| retirement.
|
| FI/RE seems to be financial advising minus the personalized
| advice and the regulations and plus the silly social media
| influencer/huckster side of things with a side dose of "retire
| well below your normal standard of living" to retire early.
|
| One of the tricks for me to balance things is realizing the
| startup game is too rigged.. it's way easier to make
| solid/reliable returns working at high performing public
| companies that award equity. I've been through quite a few
| exits, but as time has gone on each exit was worse and worse
| because the founders and investors get more and more of the
| pie. And working at the public companies tends to be way more
| life/work balance.
| neogodless wrote:
| > we could do a normal retirement in our early 50s if we
| could get closer to $6M nest egg
|
| Assuming you're going to live from 50 until 80, that's
| $200k/year spending assuming your investments/retirement
| funds just keep up with inflation. Maybe I'm missing
| something?
| pcglue wrote:
| No, don't have a financial advisor, but considering one now.
| Before I burnt out, I was also planning to early retire
| around 50, when my nest egg should be at least $5M. Thanks
| for your insights. What kind of financial advisor did you
| use? Fee-only CFP/CFA?
| dorkwood wrote:
| If you have that much in the bank and you're worried about how
| a gap year will affect your future, then I'm royally screwed.
|
| I want to take some time off, but I've got significantly less
| to fall back on. I wish I didn't earn so little for so long. It
| feels like by the time I catch up I'll be regular retirement
| age anyway.
| kelnos wrote:
| As others have pointed out, try to get a financial advisor who
| can look at your situation and give you some objective advice.
|
| But also understand that you're probably not going to make the
| best decisions about this from the perspective of extreme
| burnout.
|
| First step might be to talk to your boss about your workload
| and see if there are some changes that can be made to make you
| happy again. If that doesn't pan out, maybe think about finding
| a new job. Even if you choose not to, just going through the
| process of seeing what's out there will give you some valuable
| perspective.
|
| I don't have much idea as to how difficult it'd be to find
| another job in your 40s/50s if you take an extended break from
| work for a while, but my intuition is that it'd be harder than
| simply switching jobs now. An alternative might be to find a
| new job now, but negotiate a start date that is a month or two
| out from your planned last day at your current job. This won't
| work at some employers, but many will be fine with it.
|
| On the other hand, consider that $2.8M at $80k/yr is 35 years
| of expenses. Your expenses will almost certainly grow over
| time, but even if they triple, that's still over 10 years of
| runway. If you wanted to take a year off, but then had trouble
| finding a job right away, you'd have no problem (financially)
| taking 6 months (or 12 or more) finding your next job. Hell,
| you could train for an entirely new field and work your way up
| from an entry level position to something mid-range in that
| time.
| neogodless wrote:
| You can spend $80k a year for 35 years and keep your investment
| in any vehicle that _just barely_ keeps up with inflation. If
| that _nut_ achieves just 3% annual gain over inflation, you 'll
| still have the same _nut_ in 35 years...
|
| Can you explain the "can't" part of early retirement? The
| "won't" is of course your decision and no one else's. But why
| do you say "can't"?
| pcglue wrote:
| I fully admit the "can't" is mostly in my head. Need to work
| up the courage to do so, due to many reasons. Societal (what
| a bum!), family (what kind of role model would I be for
| kids?) and just fear of running out of money due to black
| swan event. I wouldn't say my fear is completely irrational,
| but it's not all rational either.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| > because I'm extremely extremely burnt out
|
| How often do you take real vacations?
|
| Your scenario comes up a lot in FIRE forums: People lead
| unsustainably stressful work lives and think the only antidote
| is to quit. Then they decide they're not ready to quit, so they
| continue working the unsustainably demanding job.
|
| The real solution is to work on refactoring your career. You
| need to teach yourself how to work sustainably, manage stress,
| and take vacations. Job won't allow it? Time to start looking
| for another job. Other jobs pay less? Doesn't matter, it's
| still more than you'd be paid if you burn out and have to quit
| to get relief.
|
| Re: Gap years: You can find stories of people taking gap years
| and then diving right back into the workforce, but many of them
| are either from young people or people who have a network that
| can get them back into a job. If you're making a clean break
| and re-entering the workforce without job connections, it's
| going to be difficult in your 40s and 50s unless you have some
| very niche skills that are in demand. Hiring managers might be
| concerned that you're looking for a cushy semi-retirement job
| to keep you busy, and that you might simply retire again if the
| going gets tough. They'd rather hire someone whose career
| interests are more aligned with staying with the company. Keep
| this in mind with how you frame your gap year.
| kelnos wrote:
| Agreed.
|
| When I was earlier in my career and was fed up at my then-
| current job, an older, wiser coworker of mine took me aside
| and advised me to leave for the right reasons. Be sure that I
| was running toward something new that excited me, and not
| just running away from something that made me unhappy. He
| wanted to make sure I wasn't going to just accept whatever
| first job came my way, or quit without any plan for the
| future at all.
|
| The antidote to unsustainably stressful work is only quitting
| if you've thoroughly looked at what quitting really means and
| have decided that will truly make you happy.
|
| Quitting might be an intentionally-short-term fix with a plan
| to find a better job with a healthier work/life balance.
| Quitting and retiring could be a long-term fix, too, but it's
| such a huge lifestyle change that it shouldn't be seen as
| simply a solution to the problem.
| pcglue wrote:
| Pre-pandemic, I'd take 3-4 weeks a year. I've only taken a 2
| weeks off this past year, mainly because there's no where to
| go, so I've taken the 2 weeks just for mental health.
|
| Everything you say makes sense and I am considering all of
| it, especially taking a lower paying, lower stress job.
| ghaff wrote:
| This is the first time in my rather long career when I
| haven't taken effectively every day I was owed. Couldn't go
| anywhere--or at least didn't feel comfortable doing so--and
| odd days here and there often ended as at least partial
| work days.
|
| In a prior life, I took a few month-long trips to Nepal. No
| one ever complained although a few were a bit surprised I
| could do so.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Discounting seasonal work my SO has been unemployed since 2016
| and her experience was pretty much like in the article.
|
| It's like immortality and why you wouldn't want to be immortal
| according to Neil deGrasse Tyson - when there's no sence of
| urgency, there's nothing to make you do anything, so you just sit
| there and stare at the wall.
|
| Really depressing come to think of it.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| For someone who wants to own so little they do seem to be a bit
| absolutist owning someone's fidelity.
|
| It would seem a lot about this journey was all about him.
| biren34 wrote:
| I've taken a few different "retirement" periods in my life, each
| lasting about 1-2 years.
|
| The first one, I intended to write, but ended up playing World of
| Warcraft. The second one, I significantly improved my coding
| skills (I was primarily doing finance immediately before this,
| and as a result of this period, my career became concentrated in
| product management + data + BI). The the third one I spent
| learning to trade. I even flirted with starting a hedge fund for
| a bit, but have since backed off those ambitions. I'm currently
| back at a full time job doing data + BI + finance + product for a
| small startup.
|
| My biggest takeaways from all these experiences: 1. That kind of
| freedom is challenge in and of itself. It's amazing to have 12-18
| months to dig in deep into a new area (I call these my self-
| directed masters programs). The feeling of freedom and mastery
| can't be beat--but most people can't sit in a room by themselves
| 8-10 hours a day and not go crazy or just waste it on
| distractions. That in itself is a skill. My first attempt ended
| up in gaming instead of writing, which turned out okay--but I
| still wonder where I could have ended up if I had my current
| level of ability to stay on course.
|
| 2. No matter what you do, if you go deep into an area, it seems
| to add to your overall career progression (for example, I got
| into video-game product management largely because of my year
| playing WoW). I doubt you can do nothing--or anything--but at
| least for me, my desire to want to learn something seemed to be
| guiding light enough.
|
| 3. It's really lonely. Like undergrad or my MBA, I was learning a
| ton of new stuff--but unlike those times, there were few people
| in my life to share the journey with. People were either
| busy/disinterested or much further along. I really wish I had
| understood the value of being part of a cohort when I had the
| chance.
|
| 4. I should have spent more time working out. At my age now, I
| can't believe I found it so hard to dedicated 5-10 hours a week
| for exercise, especially when my body responded so readily to it
| (compared to now--I guess youth is wasted on the young once
| again).
|
| 5. Going back and forth between these times and full-time jobs is
| a great way to level-up and then lock in a new backstop for your
| next career move. Adding in a little consulting also makes the
| interviewing story better and gives you some real-world problems
| to tackle with the new skills you're developing.
| bulletwolf wrote:
| I've got 5 years of early retirement under my belt, and I feel
| like I've had the inverse experience of the OP. The first two
| years were an incredibly difficult transition period for me.
|
| Losing the status of being a higher up at a successful (small)
| company was extremely painful, especially because I didn't
| realize how much of a perk of the job it was. Like many others in
| this thread, I realized work provided a venue to solve
| interesting problems with interesting people, and I knew I would
| miss that (but also knew there were other, non-work ways to
| scratch that itch). Looking back, though, the ego/status aspect
| was probably the biggest benefit, and I never admitted that to
| myself.
|
| Fairly soon into retirement, I made the choice to address the
| issue by decreasing my ego needs, rather than pursuing another
| high status non-work position. In some sense, it wasn't too hard
| to do (though I did find that I had to give up programming for a
| while, since it turned out that, despite my love of math and
| puzzle solving, the real biggest draw of programming was the
| megalomaniacal sense of being a god in a universe of your own
| creation). The issue is, I went too far, and experienced pretty
| significant depersonalization, which, from the inside wasn't
| terrible, but I think made me too weird to interact with my
| family and friends.
|
| I've currently accepted more ego back into my life (hence this
| self-centered posting, for instance), but kept it below the old
| levels. I'm happy with my life, and find it much more even keeled
| and comfortable than when I was working, though I still miss the
| emotional highs of succeeding in a big work project.
|
| Anyway, I think what really got me to log on here and post this
| was seeing the various other posters claiming work as a source of
| meaning and maybe poo pooing the OP, a bit, for giving it up.
| Now, on the one hand, I'm not really disagreeing, but I just
| wanted to add the nuance that, for me, turns out most of that
| meaning was not coming from nice pro-social things like
| cooperating with a team and working on interesting problems, but
| mostly just base status drive and ego. Now, I don't know how much
| my experience applies to the general population and most jobs,
| but I have a feeling it probably does apply to a fair chunk of
| the readers of this forum.
| cheradenine_uk wrote:
| > but mostly just base status drive and ego.
|
| I see this. Props for understanding yourself!
|
| The number of status updates I see from former work colleagues
| who, pretty transparently, just want to Let You Know they are
| Still Really Important is astonishing -- especially ones close
| to normal retirement age. My reaction is something akin to
| (e.g) "what have you done wrong that you're over 60 and are
| still climbing the greasy pole?"
|
| But it takes effort to check out of the game. I felt _exactly_
| the same internal pressure after leaving one job to "update my
| status" once I started my own, next, Really Important Role -
| even when doing so was blatantly at odds with my values.
|
| It takes a lot of knowing yourself and your own motivations to
| come to terms with this. It reminds me a great deal of Kung Fu!
|
| 'Have you no ambition, Master Po?' -Disciple Caine 'Only one.
| Five years hence, it is my wish to make a pilgrimage to the
| Forbidden City. It is a place where even priests receive no
| special status. There in the Temple of Heaven, will be a
| festival The full moon of May. It will be the thirteenth day of
| the fifth month in the Year of the Dog.' -Master Po 'That is
| not such a great ambition.' -Disciple Caine 'But it is
| ambition, nonetheless. Who among us is without flaw?' -Master
| Po
| neogodless wrote:
| Ah, I feel this. Kind of funny (funny ha ha or funny ouch?) but
| on my last two projects, I was definitely riding a high of
| sorts. New languages/frameworks but before long, I had figured
| out the lay of the land and some of the quirks of these
| languages and felt like I was really productive, and able to
| help teammates with questions.
|
| In both cases, 6-12 month long projects ended with basically
| being thrown in the bin. So, yeah, you can imagine any sense of
| purpose I may have assigned myself by being involved in these
| projects was an illusion. Nope - I just enjoyed getting good at
| something!
|
| Then I spent six months unemployed, and spent some of that
| doing hobbies I enjoyed... even getting half decent at some
| things I've tried before. But by the end of the period, given
| the constraints of the pandemic, I was missing that feeling of
| doing something on work days that _felt_ like accomplishment. I
| definitely think for anyone retiring, early or otherwise, you
| will have to spend a period of decompression and adjustment,
| either learning to accept consumption over creation, or finding
| new ways to create. You 'll need to find a new balance, and
| you'll have a lot more time to do it.
| mathgladiator wrote:
| One of the things that struck me is that the need for new
| hardwood floors. I've been there, and I think this is a phase
| where you have to do something stupid with a lot of money to
| realize how stupid it is.
|
| For instance, I spent $7K on new quartz counter-tops, $5K on a
| new fireplace insert which I would rarely use, and then $70K on a
| bathroom that I never used. Now, I've come to the conclusion that
| perfect doesn't really exist and just to enjoy what you have. We
| went from home owners to renters.
|
| All the external things that money buys tend to not provide
| lasting happiness, and there you are stuck with yourself. We all
| die.
|
| I have a lot of thoughts on this piece as I'm in the FI camp, but
| not yet RE camp. The only reason I don't join RE right now is
| because I want to try to leverage my position to do something
| really big. However, I'll probably fail, and I'll retire and do
| my own thing.
| horsawlarway wrote:
| > All the external things that money buys tend to not provide
| lasting happiness, and there you are stuck with yourself. We
| all die.
|
| I think this varies. I've had my fair share of purchases that
| made no difference and I'd probably not repeat if given the
| opportunity. But I also have a good number of purchases that
| made a significant difference in the quality of my life.
|
| Honestly, I LOVE (love, love love) being a homeowner. Cheaper
| than rent and I can customize to my hearts content.
|
| Spent 40k on a porch 3 years ago, and I don't really have any
| regrets - We knew we wanted it, we knew it would make a lot of
| things easier (pet care, laundry, chest freezer access) and
| it's a great spot to just sit and enjoy myself.
|
| Plus, it's on a house I intend to own until I die - not because
| I plan to live here forever, but because I bought an affordable
| place where the numbers for renting it work with my mortgage.
| So for now, my wife and I will enjoy it, in 5 years we'll
| either still be enjoying it or it will be adding to the monthly
| rent the place can pull.
|
| We're in the middle of spending about 55k on a bathroom remodel
| with a similar expected return - We get to enjoy it now, and if
| we decide at some point it's not working for us or we're no
| longer happy here, it becomes revenue generating.
|
| The flip side of this was my car - I just didn't care _at all_
| about what I was driving as long as it could get me from point
| A to point B with minimal hassle. I have coworkers & family
| who don't understand why I'm still driving a crappy 94 mazda
| protege. Doesn't matter how many times I tell them I don't
| care.
|
| Similar for the lawn - I grew up in a nice neighborhood, and I
| got to see first hand exactly how expensive lawn care is and
| how little time most folks actually spent in their yard. Its
| like a nightmare of keeping up with the joneses - So we bought
| in a place with no HOA, and we ripped up most of the grass and
| have put in beds and paths in the front instead.
|
| Some of the neighbors judge us (or complain openly, to our
| faces) about how the yard looks, but fuck em. Its not their
| yard, and I'm not spending the time and money to make other
| folks happy.
|
| And really - I think that's the crux of the issue. If you're
| doing something because someone else might judge you if you
| don't, or because someone else did something similar and you
| want to show off too... then you're probably doing it for the
| wrong reasons.
| [deleted]
| mathgladiator wrote:
| The sad thing was the status grind on his partner; that's
| unfortunate but all too common. It seems he ended up with a more
| compatible partner in the end, so I'm happy for him.
|
| I recently learned there is this term called "Sigma male" where
| status is not interesting. Now, I don't know if it is real or
| just some label, but I do know people that don't care. I
| personally don't care, but this is after testing the waters of
| spending money for happiness (remodel house, changes, etc...).
|
| The key that I hope to leverage is that for me money nor
| traditional status does not translates directly into happiness.
| However, working on my silly programming language and products
| that use it: very happy.
|
| My hope when I retire is to work almost full-time with the
| flexibility to stop and go. I'll be tinkering on
| http://www.adama-lang.org/ whilst I try to bootstrap a board game
| company.
|
| I've come to the realization that most of my ideas are going to
| be seen harshly from many technical people, and they will not be
| taken seriously at first. My strategy therefor is to balance the
| meta-game of language building with building actual games. For
| instance, I'm currently designing a two player deck builder game
| for husband and wives to play.
|
| I gave a demo of a product that I am building with a friend, and
| his mind was blown. Sadly, this is the form of status that I
| seek. I don't see the lifestyle or the materialism, I seek
| demonstrating my cleverness and being ahead of the curve.
| KKKKkkkk1 wrote:
| The whole greek-letter theory of social dominance (alphas,
| betas, etc.) is based on a misunderstanding.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtFgdwTsbU
| psychiatrist24 wrote:
| "Sadly, this is the form of status that I seek."
|
| It just goes to show you have to pick the right peer group to
| achieve the things you want, as people will want most to
| impress their peer group.
|
| I've often caught myself with that and Hacker News, dreaming of
| hacking together something that would yield a good scoring
| submission on HN, but ultimately would be unimportant.
| hw_tw_03_22 wrote:
| >I've come to the realization that most of my ideas are going
| to be seen harshly from many technical people, and they will
| not be taken seriously at first.
|
| No, I think your ideas on fatFIRE are right and should be
| copied by everyone who can.
| mathgladiator wrote:
| Well, the ideas I was referring to was my programming
| language ... for board games:
|
| http://www.adama-lang.org/
|
| I imagine that I have a few years until I see some of my
| ideas being more mainstream. There are a few database
| offerings (like firebase) which are similar to the
| infrastructure that I am going to build, but I am targeting a
| completely new data stack.
|
| Such a build doesn't make sense without products, and I'm
| limiting myself to board games because... that's what I want
| to ship.
|
| If I push my ideas out as a replacement for... mongo or
| mysql, then I'm going to get a lot of push-back. IF, instead,
| I push my ideas out via new products like a deck builder for
| married couples, then I just took an eccentric path.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| I had to quit reading any FIRE (financial independence, early
| retirement) blogs because they were full of people headed down
| this same path: Extreme frugality, bare minimum savings, assuming
| their lifestyle would never change and nothing would ever go
| wrong.
|
| Retiring at 30 sounds great, but no one's life goes exactly to
| plan for next the 30-40 years until traditional retirement age.
| People change, expectations evolve, possessions wear out and need
| to be replaced. Living frugally may be fun when you're in your
| 20s, but it's not so fun when as you get older and your friends
| want to do things that require money (vacations, hobbies, dining
| out). Even worse when your romantic partner has different goals
| in life, as happened here.
|
| Many of the leanFIRE stories have their roots in people who hate
| their jobs so much that the only thing that motivates them is
| early retirement. They grind through the job the hate, counting
| days on their leanFIRE countdown until they can quit working and
| never look back.
|
| Most of these people would be much happier if they simply
| invested time and energy into finding a job they enjoy, or at
| least one that doesn't make them miserable. Even if it requires a
| pay cut and a later retirement date, it's much better to spend
| your time doing something you don't hate than it is to grind out
| a bad job in misery just to reach dreams of early retirement
| sooner.
| hintymad wrote:
| Well said. I'd also add that frugality does not work very well
| when you have kids. You would want to buy time if you don't
| want to spend all your time with kids. That means baby sitters,
| nannies, coaches, and classes for extracurricular activities.
| Besides, not every parent is good at coaching or tutoring their
| kids. Given the education quality of the US, you'd have to pay
| for additional education unless you're the lucky few who have
| self-driven kids. And what if your kids get sick? The cost just
| adds up.
| guidoism wrote:
| Not going to argue about having to spend money to get some
| time away from the kids. But education? If you retire then
| you have the time to unschool your children and while your
| family and friends will think you are crazy your children
| will get a much better education than anything that involves
| money.
| hintymad wrote:
| > unschool your children
|
| Via homeschool groups or via your own? I don't know much
| about homeschool group, so I'll comment only educating kids
| alone: parents tend to underestimate the skills required
| for quality education. You need empathy to understand that
| your kids may not get some seemingly simple concepts. You
| need skills to explain to kids complex concepts in simple
| terms -- and this is not about merely applying Feynman's
| technique, but about knowing what language is more
| accessible to kids. You need to know a subject well to
| teach your kids effectively. The list can go on. In a word,
| education is a profession, and it takes years of experience
| to become a quality educator. Why do parents think that
| they can magically give "a much better education than
| anything that involves money"?
|
| By the way, I recognize that there are always exceptions,
| especially that smart and driven kids probably need just
| parents' guidance and advice instead of full-fledged
| "education". I mainly have ordinary kids in mind, though,
| as they are the majority to whom education makes a huge
| difference. Case in point, I didn't get physics, especially
| free-body diagram and optics when I started learning
| physics in junior high. It was a retired teacher who
| removed my conceptual blocks by giving me very targeted
| exercises. I got stuck again in high school when studying
| electromagnetism, and it was another teacher who opened my
| eyes by prescribing inspiring problems like how to
| accelerate a static electron without a push. I was also
| lucky to get a math teacher who somehow could find
| incredibly challenging yet accessible problems that kept me
| in the discomfort zone. I have similar stories for writing
| class, for history class, and for chemistry class. Oh yeah,
| chemistry. A teacher in my senior year was so passionate
| about chemistry that I didn't realize that he taught us how
| to reason about organic synthesis at college level, to the
| point that we could solve some of the IChO problems. And
| the truth is that my parents could never do what those
| teachers did. I'm not sure how many kids were lucky enough
| to have responsible and capable teachers around. And if
| they don't, finding tutors is not a bad choice.
| ghaff wrote:
| Furthermore leanFIRE is at least somewhat irreversible. Not
| literally, but if you retire at say 35 with a bare minimum nest
| egg and you decide 10 years later that this isn't how you want
| to spend the rest of your life, it will be at least more
| difficult to insert yourself back into whatever career track
| you were on.
| BlargMcLarg wrote:
| >Most of these people would be much happier if they simply
| invested time and energy into finding a job they enjoy
|
| Many people reach FIRE without much energy, it's an incredibly
| easy "set and forget" style of life. Many use its concepts to
| get in a position where they _can_ find a job they enjoy.
|
| This skips over the part where the individual might want to be
| entrepreneurial and needs the funds to be in a position to take
| such a risk. Or the job they love is inherently in a shitty
| position (passion industries teeming with bad conditions), so
| it's a "pick your poison situation" until they have leverage,
| and in many cases, both poisons make them feel miserable
| anyway.
|
| The idea that there's a job out there for every person they'll
| enjoy doing as long as they put in the energy, is an incredibly
| idealistic and even privileged mindset we should be getting rid
| of.
| neogodless wrote:
| > Extreme frugality
|
| Were you reading FIRE blogs or extreme frugality blogs? Or
| maybe I can just ask "how do you define _extreme_ frugality? "
| (I think of myself as kind of frugal, and planning to have the
| choice to avoid compulsory paid work before I'm 50, but I also
| live in one of the most expensive areas of the United States
| outside of big cities / California, with somewhat regular trips
| to Disney World and other countries.) But a blog like
| earlyretirementextreme.com isn't focused on high earners
| cutting down on consumption and retiring early (that's
| MrMoneyMustache.com) - it's a version of extreme frugality and
| self-reliance (and adaptability regardless of changing life
| circumstances.)
|
| > bare minimum savings
|
| I assume by this you mean "leanFIRE" as in "just enough of a
| nest egg to retire with 25x your annual expenses and everything
| goes perfectly?!" Of course, that sounds like a recipe for
| disaster, and I think in some cases it's a bit of a "oh I can
| quit my stupid job at the exact moment I hit this magic number"
| mentality, but a misunderstanding of putting a real plan in
| place for a future that is filled with variables. Depending on
| the blogs you frequented, they could be "copycat" blogs that
| just took the juicy headlines from more in-depth blogs and
| throwing up quick articles so they can get some ad revenue.
|
| Any idea, handled poorly, is going to either come off
| unappealing or be riddled with shortcomings. That doesn't mean
| the original idea can't work (and it does for some - some by
| luck, others by proper strategy.)
| ricardobayes wrote:
| Well someone spending 30k in Massachusetts living in a rental
| is got to be living extremely frugally. Then the woman had
| enough of the pennypinching. I see this so often in my circle
| - all the missed eating out and having fun is ultimately
| spent on marriage counseling and divorce lawyers.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| The median household income in Massachusetts is $80k so
| between them they weren't far off. Especially when you
| consider your costs tend to be lower when you aren't
| working. I wouldn't call that extreme frugality.
| lupire wrote:
| Divorce is better than an unhappy marriage with someone who
| doesn't share values.
| JustSomeNobody wrote:
| Even better is don't marry that person to begin with. Let
| them go off and enjoy their life with someone they're
| better suited to share life with.
| neogodless wrote:
| My understanding was that they had separate finances, and
| 30k/year was just _his_ spending. My spouse and I spend
| less than $60k /year in a comparable cost-of-living area
| (COLA), including flights/hotels/entertainment and other
| nice things to have (home, some land, modern cars, monthly
| massage, etc.). It's really not "extreme frugality" in my
| point of view, but I suppose some might see it that way.
| PragmaticPulp wrote:
| There's a big difference between spending $60K/year on
| average, and having a firm upper limit of $60K/year that
| can never be exceeded for the entire rest of your life
| (inflation adjusted), lest your entire financial plan
| collapses.
|
| If you had an unlucky year and had to spend an extra $10K
| on various things (car breaks down, medical expenses,
| moving for a job) it's probably not a big deal for you.
| If a leanFIRE person had an unexpected extra $10K
| expense, they'd have to cut $10K out of the rest of their
| budget for the entire year.
|
| If you're already squeezing by on $30K/year like this
| author, somewhere between 1/2 and 2/3 of that might go to
| basic living expenses (rent, utilities, food). If the
| other 1/3 of your budget gets wiped out by an unexpected
| $10K expense, it's going to be a very lean year.
|
| This is the problem with most leanFIRE plans: They only
| work if nothing ever goes wrong, no unexpected expenses
| occur (for 4 or more decades straight), and a person's
| lifestyle never expands at all.
| neogodless wrote:
| This isn't really accurate, though. In most cases there
| is a large margin of error built into the 4% "safe
| withdrawal rate" - and that is that the investments "on
| average" do much better than 4% (easily 5-7% after
| inflation, in many cases much higher) and that you end up
| with much more than what you need to withdraw 4%.
|
| The notable exception is called a "sequence of returns
| risk" (SORR) where either something bad happens in the
| first few years draining a really large portion of your
| original savings (more than $10k) and/or the market
| undergoes a recession during the first few years, and if
| you withdrew the full 4% from your investments while
| their value was markedly depressed, you would never
| recover (without additional income). In my opinion, a
| proper retirement strategy should account for SORR; some
| padding (i.e. the _wants_ portion of your budget you can
| reduce during a lean year), reverse-glide strategy where
| you can draw from cash /bonds instead of equities in case
| of depressed value equities, etc. In many cases, this
| scenario happens so early in retirement that anyone
| retiring at a younger age has relatively good prospects
| of rejoining the work force to get to the other side, and
| then will likely be very well prepared for a second
| retirement with a decreased likelihood of yet another bad
| sequence of returns occurring before their nest egg has
| grown well beyond 25 times annual expenses.
|
| And all retirement plans should be _flexible_ - some
| years where you might spend a bit less than the target,
| but have room to change that, particularly if your
| invested assets grow beyond the original necessary funds.
| TheCoelacanth wrote:
| > In most cases there is a large margin of error built
| into the 4% "safe withdrawal rate"
|
| I don't think that's the case if you're retiring early.
| The 4% withdrawal rate was based on a 30 year retirement.
| You need to go a bit lower if you want to have minimal
| risk of running out of money for a much longer horizon.
| matsemann wrote:
| I think most people would agree with you. Often called "build
| the life you want, then save for it"[0]. It's not as sexy,
| though, probably why the extreme outliers are more written
| about (or vocal).
|
| [0]:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/comments/58j8...
| the_gastropod wrote:
| > ...bare minimum savings, assuming their lifestyle would never
| change and nothing would ever go wrong.
|
| Isn't the status quo of working a 9-5 and saving ~10% (aka
| spending 90%) of your salary exactly this? Having ~25x living
| expenses saved up seems like a significantly less fragile
| position than you're suggesting. Even this "failure" case, the
| author ended his 6 years of not earning a penny with more money
| than he started. And he was able to get a job when he decided
| he wanted one.
|
| > Most of these people would be much happier if they simply
| invested time and energy into finding a job they enjoy
|
| Lots of people don't enjoy things that are necessarily
| financially viable. Putting in a finite amount of time to free
| yourself to pursue interests without concern for the financials
| makes a lot of sense.
| yibg wrote:
| I noticed even with myself over the years I've flip flopped.
|
| At first I thought I can do lean FIRE, because I was never a
| big spender in the first place. As I get older I started to
| gradually spend more on things and frankly enjoy the ability to
| do so as I earned more. For example, not having to take the
| crappiest flight to get some where. Recently as I get older, I
| question if I want to even retire early at all. Now I'm
| shifting more towards "I want to be financially independent so
| I'm not reliant on a job, but I still want to work".
|
| So things change, and things change more and faster than we
| anticipate. And this isn't even accounting for externalities
| outside of our control.
| mathgladiator wrote:
| I'm going to start blogging about FIRE from the other extreme
| end. I'm a principal engineer making serious dollars, and I'm
| writing down my playbook.
|
| I intend to "Fat-FIRE", and the only reason I don't retire now
| is to see how much I can leverage my position to do crazy shit
| at massive scale. Paradoxically, this sets me up for larger
| windfalls because I can take risks that my peers do not take.
| slumdev wrote:
| Nobody ever made it to the top by groveling, volunteering for
| scut, and accepting an annual 3% raise.
| lostmsu wrote:
| You should do that.
|
| I am an early retiree, who sometimes thinks it would be nice
| to get back into the industry just to steer or at least nudge
| the projects I still care about very much into the direction
| I'd like to seem them to go. And because they are corporate-
| driven (hello, Microsoft, Facebook, and Google!) it is just
| too hard to do from the outside.
| mathgladiator wrote:
| I have been tinkering with it off and on.
|
| One thing that I see is that people complain about politics
| rather than recognizing the natural force it is and how to
| bend and master it towards your will.
|
| The working title is "Way of Code"
| birdyrooster wrote:
| Would be more boring than the OP, probably a waste of time to
| even write the brag piece.
| potatoman22 wrote:
| I think it sounds interesting. Do you really like to spend
| your days trying to bring people down? Is that fulfilling?
| jpdaigle wrote:
| > Even worse when your romantic partner has different goals in
| life, as happened here.
|
| What stings (as I can't help but empathize with the author's
| feelings) in reading this blog is that it sounds like they were
| very aligned five years ago, but she discovered a gradual
| growing miscontent only once they tried the early-retiree life.
|
| Not sure if there's a possible fix there, other than trying to
| compromise (only one of them working, which would probably just
| lead to more growing apart)
| pdimitar wrote:
| Some people change, most don't, and when one person changes,
| the other might be comfortable and not want any changes.
|
| Sadly these things can and do happen. But we the people
| usually make it much worse by holding on to relationships
| that are past their date, for much longer than it's healthy.
| Sileni wrote:
| As many people learned last year, it's easy to gloss over the
| parts of someone you don't like when you're both actively
| working towards a goal. When you start spending too much time
| together, it's easy to have the relationship die from a
| thousand cuts.
| pdimitar wrote:
| I would add "...if you weren't a good match in the first
| place". Your statement kind of tries to make itself
| universal.
|
| I absolutely will never subscribe to the BS notion of
| "couples love each other more when they don't spend much
| time together".
|
| I'm with my wife for 7 years now and I already worked
| remotely by the time we met. Our relationship is actually
| getting better with time.
|
| So what you say mostly applies to people who are, let's
| call them, good roommates, not two people loving each
| other.
| SketchySeaBeast wrote:
| You take exception to their generalizing and then
| generalize yourself which I'm taking exception to. I love
| my wife deeply, but work time apart makes our time
| together better. It takes all sorts.
| pdimitar wrote:
| Not at all, I said what I don't subscribe under and cited
| my anecdotal evidence. My "generalization" is actually
| putting people in groups, which by itself admits that a
| generalization is impossible.
|
| But it could possibly be offensive to some people that I
| call their couples "good roommates" which is a fair
| reaction -- I still have the right to my opinion however.
| andreilys wrote:
| Isn't that the point of financial independence?
|
| So that you could invest time into finding a way to spend your
| time that pays less (or nothing) but which you enjoy?
| onlyrealcuzzo wrote:
| It's interesting to me that so many people think the path to
| riches is paved with pinched pennies.
|
| If some of my friends spent half as much time learning new
| skills as they do saving pennies - I think they'd be much
| better off. And especially because they don't even enjoy most
| of the ways they're saving money! Long commutes, cooking all
| their meals, doing all their dishes. Especially being
| overworked by a dead-end job they hate!
|
| Spend your money, invest your time.
|
| I know it's easier said than done.
| dimmke wrote:
| I've had friends with trust funds, who just seem to dither
| around in life. "Making music" they never release. Picking up
| little "pass the time" jobs. And these are people that aren't
| living "leanFIRE"
|
| It seems like such a nihilistic way to live. You're just
| floating along the stream of life. Things worked out for you,
| but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the
| world? No problems you could set yourself to solving?
|
| As much criticism as Elon Musk gets (he's certainly not
| perfect), the path he took is the only thing that makes sense
| to me in that position. He didn't take his wealth and begin
| doing angel investing in new CRUD app startups, he wanted to
| solve real problems humanity faces.
|
| Not everybody has that amount of money or skill, but it's
| surprising to me how many people's alternative to having a day
| job they're forced to do is just complete leisure time 100% of
| the time or picking up arbitrary hobbies.
|
| In this guy's post, like with writing, it sounds like he wasn't
| actually passionate about it. There are plenty of places to
| post serialized fiction as you write in online and get feedback
| (Royal Road, Substack) but it sounded like the measuring stick
| he was judging himself was becoming a very popular/famous
| author, not actually writing great stories. It seems just like
| a different version of the treadmill he was talking about with
| other people.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| >Things worked out for you, but you have no further passion
| or inclination to improve the world? No problems you could
| set yourself to solving?
|
| And why should they? I'm no fan of trust fund babies who
| coast by on life, but really, why does anyone have to justify
| their lives by doing something to improve the world? What are
| you and I accomplishing right now?
|
| Maybe it's just the severe burnout talking, but I for one
| would love to just stop everything and exist for a while with
| no tangible goals or requirements of me. Besides that, what
| good is a person who did the leanFIRE thing really supposed
| to do? The whole idea is to live cheaply, they don't have a
| lot of money to invest in making the world better. They have
| all the time in the world, sure, but if you're putting 40+
| hours into "making the world better" (Whatever that means to
| you) then are you really retired? Or are you just doing the
| same thing as everyone else but living a much more meager
| life for the sake of it.
| dimmke wrote:
| >why does anyone have to justify their lives by doing
| something to improve the world?
|
| There have been a few replies in this vein, and I see where
| you're coming from based on the way I phrased what I was
| saying.
|
| I'm not arguing that anybody should be forced by some
| external entity to do anything. I am advocating for a
| person in this situation to attempt to cultivate a
| passion/greater purpose because I believe it's something we
| need to be fulfilled. The man in this article designed a
| life for himself that was free from labor, but ultimately
| unfulfilling in many ways.
|
| And if you need to find that passion, looking to improve
| society in some way is a great place to start. I can think
| of a few things in that vein that I would consider focusing
| on if I was in such a situation, and none of them are as
| far reaching as "make humanity multi-planetary."
| CryingSofa wrote:
| The definition of 'retirement' is a common debate in the
| FIRE space. Often (not always!) it boils down to fights
| over definitions. Would you call daily volunteering at a
| soup kitchen (or church, or whatever) 'retired'?
|
| By the way, "making the world better" doesn't need to be
| large or expensive, at least in my opinion: If I talk to
| the lone, probably widowed neighbour on my way home, I
| count that as "making the world better".
| allenu wrote:
| That's a good point about the scale of the "making the
| world better". It doesn't have to be huge.
|
| I think at the end of the day, it's really about finding
| meaning in your own existence, and such a large part of
| that for a lot of us is feeling like we are giving back
| to society or helping our fellow humans somehow. I think
| this is where I can see the author's goal of just writing
| being hollow. He writes about his fears that maybe his
| writing won't ever be discovered. It makes me wonder if
| he's writing because he enjoys the craft or he wants the
| status of being known as a writer.
|
| If he really enjoyed the craft, maybe he would've enjoyed
| writing more. The status thing would be nice, but maybe
| he would enjoy having other people read his stories and
| connecting with them. That could've been something to
| keep him going and give him some short-term goals,
| direction, and connection with other people.
| dimmke wrote:
| I like the way you phrased this. Very in line with my
| thinking on this.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| I don't know. I'd love to have a basic level of income and
| then be able to dither around with random jobs. I'd love to
| be a bartender for 6 months, work in a bookstore for 6
| months, become a carpenter for a year or two. I'd probably
| feel differently if I actually had a trust fund since my
| upbringing would be different but it does feel stifling that
| in order to have a financially rewarding career one has to
| stay on a relatively narrow path.
|
| And I say this as someone who has made a major career change
| during their life.
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| You can do that now. Why not? Bartenders make okay money,
| and you wouldn't have to compete with like-minded people
| like if there was BI.
| draw_down wrote:
| Health insurance
| schnevets wrote:
| I frequently have similar fantasies and have to consciously
| remind myself that I can get the same happiness in my
| current role.
|
| When I think of opening a bar/restaurant, I'm actually just
| hoping for more quality time with friends.
|
| When I think of opening a bookstore, I'm actually just
| hoping for more time to focus on reading.
|
| When I think of becoming a cook, I'm actually just hoping
| for more passion and drive in the thing I make
| professionally.
| allenu wrote:
| That's a good way of looking at it.
|
| This discussion point reminds me of a Sir Ken Robinson
| talk (not sure which one, but he has many). After a
| friend's musical performance on stage, he comments to his
| friend that he'd love to do what he's doing, being on
| stage, playing guitar. His friend quickly remarks that
| no, he actually wouldn't. If he really wanted to be a
| musician, he would've done it by now. He would've put in
| the work and toil to get there. Instead, he just likes
| the idea of being able to perform at a high level in
| front of other people.
|
| I think so many of our fantasies are like that. We think
| of the end result and want that, but don't think about
| all the work needed to get there and whether we're up for
| that.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Yeah I agree to a certain extent. But I wouldnt LOVE to
| be a bartender. I think it would be interesting to try it
| for 6 months. Actually I'm quite certain at the end of
| the 6th months I'd be perfectly happy to never work
| behind a bar again. I might even dread the job by the 3rd
| month.
|
| But it would be interesting to try. I was a life guard in
| college. I am probably the worst lifeguard of all time
| but it was fun for a summer. Same with being a basketball
| referee. I don't really know the rules well enough to
| officiate a game. But it was a fun job for a year.
|
| It's things like that which I was able to afford to do in
| college or early adulthood that seem like they are not
| possible now. Not without significant financial sacrifice
| and a large detour of a career in motion.
| alexashka wrote:
| I think this is a nice way to console yourself, but
| ultimately not true.
|
| The reason people want to open a bar when they work in IT
| or whatever, is because most people don't want to do the
| same shit over and over again for 40 years.
|
| That's just human nature, we are not robots, but society
| has been structured to commodify us and make us
| predictable producers of 'moar money' for people who
| already have money :)
|
| It's called wage slavery for a reason, and no, a slave
| doesn't simply want more friend time or whatever, humans
| want to be free.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| Huh. Interesting way of looking at it. I don't associate
| wanting to work at a bar with spending more quality times
| with friends. I think it would be interesting to be in a
| customer service role and working in a fast paced
| environment where I have to make drinks/pour beers.
|
| I like the little bookstore near me. They play classical
| music during the day and the lady who runs it seems nice.
| I'd like to work there for a while and see what that is
| like.
|
| Carpentry (or being a cook which would also be on my
| list) is about doing something with my hands
| professionally. Can I make my living by creating
| something with my hands? What would that feel like? I
| know I can make a living using my voice. I know I can
| make a living with my fingers on a keyboard.
|
| What would it look like to make a living building
| something physical? For me it's more about things that
| seem like they would be interesting life experiences.
| the_only_law wrote:
| I have the similar fantasies but then remember I would
| already be doing things like this if half the jobs I
| wanted to "try" weren't credentialized.
| psychiatrist24 wrote:
| I regret that I never worked as a waiter in a cafe, and now
| it looks as if I can't afford it anymore. Or if I could
| afford it, I would be taking away the job from people who
| have a more urgent need for it than me.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| There should be a class of jobs for retirees just working
| for health care and socialization.
| beambot wrote:
| Elon Musk's life is at the opposite extremum of "floating
| through life." The man works 90+ hours per week, gambled his
| entire fortune on two risky hardware companies, serves as a
| prominent public figure, and destroyed many of his close
| personal relationships (e.g. remarried numerous times). He's
| having tremendous impact; I respect him like crazy & would
| happily back his endeavors... But I wouldn't wish for his
| lifestyle, let alone choose it.
|
| I rather doubt that you would choose Elon's life either --
| especially if you were in his financial position.
|
| (Happy to stand corrected, since I don't know you.)
| eagsalazar2 wrote:
| Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age end
| up doing nothing of note with their time. But, and I think
| you aren't saying otherwise, this is also true of everyone
| who still has to work, while they are working. Your job is
| just the thing you have to do (if you are lucky you actually
| enjoy it). Bottom line, most people don't actually have a
| purpose or strong passions in their lives. Being retired
| young doesn't make that more or less true but at least you
| have more space to confront that void and just maybe _find_
| some purpose or passion. If you are totally time strapped
| with career, family, and other responsibilities, then you
| really really have no chance. OTOH maybe our outside
| judgement that these people are wasting their lives is
| misguided. Subjective reported happiness for retirees is much
| higher compared to the working world.
| [deleted]
| GordonS wrote:
| > Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age
| end up doing nothing of note with their time.
|
| If you spend some years just chilling and and are actually
| happy, then sure, why not. But there are so many retired
| people who do nothing, and are not happy.
|
| For example, my mother, my mother and father in law, my
| other father in law, my grandmother - all retired, and all
| do absolutely nothing but watch TV and moan about other
| people all day. And they are all very obviously _not_
| happy, yet suggestions for things to do or get involved in
| always fall in deaf ears - they 'd apparently rather sit
| and do nothing until they die.
|
| I really, really don't get it.
| DubiousPusher wrote:
| It makes perfect sense. It's very popular now to see
| everything as genetic. That is all our focus. We neglect
| how decades of being in the same environment with the
| same incentives wires the brain a certain way.
|
| When you spend all that time disciplining yourself to
| work (against your own will) and having little time to
| develop your own interests, you become hard wired to do
| what is necessary.
|
| When that necessity ceases to exist you no longer have
| the machinery to move yourself. A career and kids and
| church and a house and big yard to maintain can leave
| nothing left of you. It can erase your very identity as
| your brain is rewritten to subdue the self and pursue
| work, chores and favors over all else.
|
| That's just my hypothesis anyway.
| dnissley wrote:
| I think this is an unappreciated explanation, and is the
| biggest reason why I want to work towards some level of
| financial independence. I have no real desire to retire
| early, so I could take or leave that part. But being able
| to make decisions about how I spend my time without
| having to worry about my next paycheck seems like the
| obvious path towards long-term happiness. If a working
| environment becomes toxic I have the option to leave. If
| I feel like hiking the Appalachian trail I can go do it
| before I'm old and frail. If I'm tired of the field I'm
| working in I can take time off to study and do something
| else. If a loved one needs assistance I can go to their
| side.
|
| Being compulsively tied to income generating work, and
| then all of a sudden being cut off from that seems like a
| surefire path towards unhappiness, since someone who has
| done that their whole life likely hasn't explored the
| mental space of what else they could be doing with their
| life.
|
| On the other hand, being totally free from any restraints
| seems like it could be an almost worse curse. No pressure
| to complete any projects, to help anybody, to do
| something useful for the world. That also wires your
| brain in a particular fashion, and could be it's own
| version of hell. Perhaps this is sour grapes though :)
| yibg wrote:
| In one of Dan Gilbert's talks he cited some research
| around activities and how they correlate with happiness.
| Unsurprisingly people like sex and socializing. But
| "doing nothing" turned out to be about as enjoyable as
| work at the bottom.
| alexashka wrote:
| I get it.
|
| It's all explained by one simple fact: the average IQ is
| 100. In today's society, how many activities are there
| for 100 IQ people to engage in?
|
| Are there animals to take care of? Is there land? Is
| there community to partake in? Are there things that
| _need_ to be done by 100 IQ people?
|
| When you build society optimizing for young people to
| work 8 hour days or giant factories and supply chains
| doing everything else, what is there for somebody at 65
| to do but watch tv and wait until they die?
|
| Young people barely even have children anymore and when
| they do, chances are their parents are still working, so
| by the time they retire, the children are 5-10 years old
| and playing on their own.
|
| It's easy to blame the individuals for not joining a
| knitting club or whatever, but people are not built to do
| pointless activities, they are built to do activities
| that have purpose and those are not available in modern
| society unless you have high IQ or a talent in a specific
| domain.
|
| Also one last point: moaning about other people is what
| people have always done, especially when you're older and
| you're almost certainly experiencing chronic pain of some
| sort. Younger people moan just as much, they just have
| youth and belief that things will be looking up on their
| side - old people have neither.
| eloff wrote:
| Apart from the fact that average IW has been rising
| dramatically, I guess your not a Forest Gump fan.
|
| I think 100 IQ people are more capable than you realize -
| but it comes down to their attitude.
| adkadskhj wrote:
| I think it depends on who you are. I can't fathom not
| doing something. I want to retire, asap, though not FIRE-
| levels, but i know what i want to do. I want to do
| exactly what i do in my current off hours, which looks a
| lot like work. Because it is work. I want to work, when i
| retire. I just want to work on whatever i want to work
| on.
|
| Which is the rub. Passionate people will be busy, all the
| time. Without it.. well, i can't even envision how to
| live.
|
| I think parents need to help their children find hobbies.
| Find passions. Develop passions. You don't _have_ to be
| excellent at piano or whatever. I don't care what it is,
| be it games, wood working, farming, etc - but i feel like
| it is essential to the human experience.
|
| But.. i've got an isolated view. So.. YMMV.
| npsimons wrote:
| > I just want to work on whatever i want to work on.
|
| This is _exactly_ why I 'm pursuing leanFIRE. Even if I
| hit the jackpot, I would still be toodling on personal
| software projects for the rest of my life. Not saying I'm
| any Michelangelo, but I would have to be trained _not_ to
| write software. I 'm just aiming to set my own priorities
| instead of working on things I'm not passionate about
| because I simply need the money.
|
| I keep wondering if I shouldn't quit the day job and
| start a software shop, but even that sounds an awful lot
| like work where you trade one relentless taskmaster for
| another. I sure as shit don't want to have to worry about
| market share, I just want to make cool (to me) software.
| jessedhillon wrote:
| This isn't an isolated view, but in my view, it does miss
| a lot.
|
| Most people have an idea of what they would ideally do if
| given unlimited amounts of time. The reality is, in my
| experience, that most people cannot put the same level of
| work, focus, and dedication into their own projects that
| they can into the projects an employer pays them to work
| on.
|
| For whatever reason, most people need the structure,
| constraint, judgment, or whatever that an external
| authority imposes on them. Having the skill and
| motivation is not enough to bring your highest work to
| your own purposes. There is a second discipline that
| involves self-accountability, which runs orthogonal to
| capacity for the work.
| nightski wrote:
| Who is advocating that most people should FIRE? It's an
| individual choice and we shouldn't be telling someone
| they can't do it because, well, "averages".
| jessedhillon wrote:
| Nobody is saying "you can't do it." But "averages" is
| 100% a valid reason to consider why you _shouldn 't_ do
| something, particularly something unknown to most humans.
| pdimitar wrote:
| One possible explanation:
|
| Their dream was to sit around, do nothing, and judge
| other people. And they have achieved it.
| purple-again wrote:
| I'll add on to the other responses and tell you that for
| a lot of people getting old sucks and the thing that
| sucks worse than getting old is being old. Constant pain.
| Lipoma pressing against your spine means no matter how
| you sit or lay you feel uncomfortable. It hurts to take a
| shit, it's hard to get all the piss out and even when you
| so you have to clean up the floor and toilet because it
| dribbled everywhere. You can't remember the last time you
| jerked off and don't care to try because it started
| hurting every time you ejaculate more than a decade ago.
| You can't stand for more than an hour before your back is
| on fire forcing you back down to your sitting position
| which is "only" uncomfortable.
|
| If you are reading this do yourself a favor and take your
| body's health seriously right now before it's too late.
| Exercise every day, get that 30 pounds of fat you
| jokingly call your dad bod off before it's too late, go
| to the doctor and fucking do what they say instead of
| nodding and convincing yourself you know better and don't
| really need to do that. Oh and brush and floss your damn
| teeth. The above story doesn't have to be your story but
| if you sit at your computer all day everyday and don't
| take care of yourself it very much can become your story.
| mfer wrote:
| I used to work for a company that had a newsletter. In
| the newsletter they listed deaths. There was a common
| theme that people would generally either die shortly
| after retiring or a long time after. Talking with some of
| the folks near retirement I learned that people who
| didn't find things to do generally died shortly after
| retirement.
|
| Basically, we live for work and when many people retire
| they loose the thing to live for and die. It's sad.
|
| Long ago I learned to not live to work. I work but I have
| so much more to life... retirement is just a point in
| time where I don't need to earn income to live any longer
| and I can have more choice in what I do.
| RankingMember wrote:
| > Not just FIRE people, but 99% of all retirees at any age
| end up doing nothing of note with their time.
|
| This is exactly why I think FIRE is a great thought
| exercise even if you don't actually care to do it. Given
| enough money to live for the rest of your life without the
| need for a job, what would you do with your time?
| tartoran wrote:
| I don't see FIRE as literal retirement but as 'taking the
| bull by the horns' in terms of doing what you really are
| passionate about without having to worry you'd end up old
| and destitute. If I could FIRE I'd still do software
| development but I wouldn't do boring digital plumbing
| work and go through corporate cringe culture. And no,
| right now I could not do that because I have
| responsibilities that need me to slave away at a
| corporate job. It's sad when I think about it but I think
| I adapted and just go forward with it. FIRE seems like a
| liberation from all that.
| CryingSofa wrote:
| This is mostly nitpicking: What you describe is the idea
| of FI (financial independence), no RE (retire early). In
| my impression, this is actually what by far the most
| FIRE-achievers turn into sooner or later (well-known
| examples: chooseFI, mad fientist, MMM). Or maybe the
| retired ones don't talk about it on the internet...
| dimmke wrote:
| >but at least you have more space to confront that void and
| just maybe find some purpose or passion
|
| This is what I'm talking about. It's likely much harder to
| do this when you retire at a normal age after having lived
| most of your life. But if you retire in your 30s or 40s? Or
| your 20s!? Good lord.
|
| Think of all the great companies that get started and then
| snapped up by the big boys because the founders want to
| become millionaires. Imagine if there was zero pressure to
| take an exit when offered. I believe our world would be in
| a better place. I don't want to just highlight companies,
| but companies can scale and affect change in a way that
| just volunteering or simple philanthropy cannot in our
| society.
|
| That's why I think so called "Lean FIRE" is such a bad
| trap. You're giving yourself very little margin to explore
| new purposes and passions. It's a much bigger bet that
| you're going to be satisfied watching TV and going for day
| trips to Niagara Falls the rest of your life.
| silicon2401 wrote:
| > "Making music" they never release. Picking up little "pass
| the time" jobs. And these are people that aren't living
| "leanFIRE"
|
| > It seems like such a nihilistic way to live. You're just
| floating along the stream of life. Things worked out for you,
| but you have no further passion or inclination to improve the
| world? No problems you could set yourself to solving?
|
| You seem to assume or take for granted that releasing music
| for an external purpose, improving the world, solving
| problems, etc have inherent value. I would 100% disagree with
| that. I don't think there's any greater objective value to
| raising orphans than there is to playing video games for the
| rest of your life. If somebody wants to make music and never
| release it, then they should have the freedom to do so. Your
| comment is on par with criticizing people for living
| meaninglessly just for not having children, when not
| everybody values or enjoys having children.
|
| > complete leisure time 100% of the time or picking up
| arbitrary hobbies.
|
| I'm at the opposite end: I'm surprised how many people care
| about solving problems or things like that. I couldn't care
| less. If I were to win the lottery or something, I'd
| immediately erase my identity and go live in a castle/farm in
| a forest somewhere, making music I'll never release etc until
| I die, etc
| munificent wrote:
| I think it's important to separate out the moral and
| psychological components here.
|
| I agree with you that if your bills are paid and you're
| harming no one, then you have no moral obligation to do
| anything more than sit on your butt and play videogames.
| It's your life.
|
| At the same time, humans are a social species. We have
| evolved brains and intrinsic motivation reward systems that
| only give us the real deep kinds of life-satisfaction
| emotions if we are putting real effort into something that
| we find to be meaningful in ways that help our perceived
| family or tribe.
|
| There are of course outliers who can spend indefinite days
| just binge-watching TV happy as a clam. But most of us are
| wired like border collies. If we don't have a herd to take
| care of some real reason to get out of bed in the morning,
| we go crazy.
| psychiatrist24 wrote:
| I find it quite different to find a meaningful occupation, it
| may not simply be a choice by those people.
| cableshaft wrote:
| I didn't know you could post fiction on Substack, also never
| heard of Royal Road. Could you recommend anything to get
| started with those? Specifically with writing serialized
| fiction. Or some example authors that have used it with
| success that I can check out?
| dimmke wrote:
| Substack is just a place to post writing and let people
| subscribe for money so it can be used to post chapters of
| fiction just as well as an article. I only know of one
| person who was posting a novel on there, and not sure if
| they were making a lot of money from it.
|
| There's also tons of subreddits like r/WritingPrompts to
| practice or r/NoSleep to post short horror fiction. There
| are huge audiences on both of those. A post from NoSleep is
| getting made into a Steven Speilberg movie:
| https://variety.com/2019/film/news/spire-in-the-woods-
| steven...
|
| RoyalRoad is huge though. Here's the top story from it:
| https://www.royalroad.com/fiction/21220/mother-of-learning
| authors usually get a following on RoyalRoad and then they
| can start a Patreon where people who donate get early
| chapters. Other authors go the Kindle Unlimited route where
| they self publish their novel on Kindle Unlimited after
| they've got a fanbase and plenty of people make a decent
| living from it.
|
| This is all the modern version of how older authors got
| started: by submitting short stories to be published in
| anthology magazines. You have to love writing and be
| willing to do it for a long time before you pop off though.
| The way he was describing it didn't resemble that to me.
| wdr1 wrote:
| > I had to quit reading any FIRE (financial independence, early
| retirement) blogs because they were full of people headed down
| this same path: Extreme frugality, bare minimum savings,
| assuming their lifestyle would never change and nothing would
| ever go wrong.
|
| You should checkout /r/fatFire
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| And under-looked approach to retirement that I'm personally
| targeting is reducing working hours and then moving to
| contracting.
|
| Late 30s/early 40s: 4 days a week with Fridays or Mondays off.
| Late 40s through 50s: contracting with increasing time off
| between contracts. E.g., 6 on 6 off, 3 on 9 off, 1 on 11 off,
| etc.
| pbuzbee wrote:
| Sounds like OP's spouse was the tipping point. If they stayed on
| the same page, I wonder if things would've gone differently
| (ignoring the medical issues which aren't trivial, of course).
|
| The OP seems content to live a life without work. For him, by far
| the main reason to work was for income. If you don't want to
| work, then why keep doing so when you no longer need income to
| fuel your lifestyle? Obviously people are different here, and
| many (esp. on HN) derive other values from work.
|
| The wrench comes when you're surrounded by people who aren't on
| the same page. Like OP pointed out, you become more disconnected
| as you both can't relate to the other's chosen lifestyle. OP sees
| their peers' lifestyles as consumption-focused. And I'd bet those
| friends couldn't relate to OP either.
|
| OP's spouse probably felt caught in the middle between freedom
| and social inclusion. If you can't relate to your peers, early
| retirement could feel more like stagnation than freedom. Social
| inclusion is a hard thing to give up.
| kelnos wrote:
| Yeah, OP pointed out that he started drifting away from many of
| his friends because they were too focused on earning and
| spending as a goal in and of itself, and they were no longer
| compatible. But he still had a core group of friends who he
| still felt close to and understood his lifestyle.
|
| It's possible his spouse just didn't have that. Sure, you can
| always say "get better friends", but that's easier said than
| done, and it has to be a huge shock to be unable to relate to
| all of the people you've counted as friends over the past
| decade or more, and watch your friendships die away. It's even
| worse if those former "friends" are judging you negatively for
| not "keeping up" with them.
|
| I do expect that to happen with some of my friends (I'm FI, but
| haven't yet pulled the RE trigger). Some of them with similar
| levels of FI (or at least the potential) are still very focused
| on work and building (or helping to build) companies, and don't
| seem to want to change that. I'm happy for them that they're
| able to do that freely, without financial worries, but I'm
| (sadly) sure that we'll drift apart once I retire. Fortunately
| I do have a solid group of friends who have similar goals as I
| do, or at least understand and support the life I want, so I
| expect those friendships to remain strong.
| ghaff wrote:
| With respect to the friends, I also wonder how much wasn't
| simply friends getting older and in the natural course of
| events spending more time with family and other interests.
| That's pretty much my experience that has very little to do
| with different financial goals.
| kelnos wrote:
| Definitely a fair point, and I'd certainly believe that OP
| & his wife's radically diverging lifestyles from their
| friends accelerated that often-natural process.
| sfblah wrote:
| I was with the story until I clicked on the link to the
| discussion with the partner and there was the sentence about how
| she "learned French last year." That description really tells me
| something about the person who wrote this.
|
| First of all, you can't "learn a language" in a year. It takes
| multiple years, and it's really a journey not a destination. I
| guarantee you his partner doesn't speak French at, say, a C1 or
| C2 level. Impossible.
|
| Second, I feel like it exposes something about the writer here.
| Too much emphasis on state, too little on the transitions between
| state.
| danaliv wrote:
| _> I feel sure that some of them also felt that they were, you
| know, continuing to move and shake and improve their lives
| whereas, from their perspective, I'd sort of given up -- my life
| appeared to be a static thing, unchanging, and therefore pretty
| fucking boring_
|
| This is such a gross element of our culture--what's wrong with
| just _living?_ --and I feel like it's not even really a matter of
| working vs. retired. I know folks who have worked the same job
| for decades, and they get the same harsh judgment from others as
| the author. But this used to be the norm! When did we switch into
| this thinking that we have to be constantly racking up gold stars
| in order for life to mean anything? Where did that idea come
| from?
| arvinsim wrote:
| Toxic hustle culture.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I've essentially been FIREd for almost 18 months now (except for
| a very brief gig last fall). I really didn't realize that I was
| kind'a sort'a retired at 57 until just a few months ago. I was in
| a startup that ran out of money towards the end of 2019 and they
| kept telling me through 2020 that they'd get more funding soon
| and call me back to work - but of course, that never happened,
| and at this point it's not gonna. So that's how I eased into
| "early" retirement - if 57 is early. But really, what I've
| realized in the last few months is that I don't dislike working
| as long as I'm working for/with nice folks doing interesting work
| with a good amount of autonomy (all true in the case of the
| previous startup gig). But what I do hate with a burning passion
| is looking for work and interviewing - the terrible tech
| interviewing situation has been well documented here on HN, so I
| won't say more. So at this point I consider myself retired from
| interviewing, but not from software development. The short gig I
| had in the Fall was a contract with a previous employer who
| needed a quick project done (no interviewing required).
|
| Like the author of the article I have had some issues with
| finding "purpose". It can be hard to relax into this kind of
| nonemployed situation and when you do get relaxed then you start
| to wonder if you're losing purpose and drifting. This is the
| battle - you're going to face it whether you retire early in your
| 30s or if you retire at the traditional age of 65. I'm trying to
| keep reading papers and doing some coding but I often come to the
| "what's the point?" crisis while working on something. Many times
| that's led to just dropping said project and going on to find
| another, but now I'm trying to push through the "what's the
| point" point.
|
| During the short gig last Fall, I did notice that working more
| than 24 hours a week is difficult at this point - fortunately it
| was a 24 hour/week gig, but I'd get to the middle of that 3rd day
| and be like "Yeah, I'm really ready to not be working anymore
| this week". This was after about a year of not working. I suppose
| that if that short gig had lasted longer I would have gotten more
| into the rhythm of work again.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| In the US at least, this would work very differently if we had
| better healthcare for our citizens. Sudden health expenses is one
| of the things that went wrong in his life that derailed his
| plans.
| vkou wrote:
| It really wouldn't. The biggest impact to his finances was not
| his health costs, it was the separation from his partner.
|
| It's _a lot_ cheaper for two people to live together, than it
| is for two people to live apart.
|
| Either way, FIRE on a million dollars, even in a lower-COL
| state is... A bit optimistic, because of short-term market
| fluctuations having the potential to coincide with surprise
| expenses.
| DoreenMichele wrote:
| It's genetic and incurable and the author himself cites it as
| a factor (in his FIRE plan hitting a bump).
|
| Here is an article that readily turned up about the
| "overwhelming" expenses involved in the diagnosis listed in
| the article:
|
| _I had a bit of an ugly meltdown last week, because I
| realized the medicine used to treat my tachycardia had
| quadrupled in price. Quadrupled. You know, because I had an
| extra $180 a month that I had been hoping to spend on
| medication._
|
| https://globalgenes.org/2017/02/08/my-life-with-ehlers-
| danlo...
| seibelj wrote:
| I "retired" for a month, first two weeks I was so bored just
| exercising and consuming content, then got kind of depressed, and
| wound up making plans to start a new business. Then I took a new
| role at a startup and went back to the grind. I came to the
| conclusion I just can't stop working. If it isn't for a company
| then I'd probably start a non-profit and build a new thing that
| is more idealistic. My dad was the same way, after 6 months of
| being retired, smoking weed, and playing videogames he got a job
| at a golf course - free golf and shoots the shit with a lot of
| people. Work gives purpose in life, IMO.
| marcinzm wrote:
| Same for me, I once left a job with nothing lined up and 5
| years of living expenses in the bank. I went rather stir crazy
| although I lasted 6 months before needing to find something to
| work on. Would have been quicker but I had a bunch of friends
| with flexible schedules to hang out with.
|
| I like doing things and solving problems but generally lack
| enough self-drive to do so on my own except on sporadic
| projects. A day job give me a focus, external motivation and
| deadlines which I actually enjoy having.
| bityard wrote:
| I like the quote from the neighbor in Office Space, "You don't
| need money to do nothing man, look at my cousin. He's broke,
| an' don't do shit."
|
| I listen to a lot of FI podcasts and they acknowledge that the
| transition from $day_job to FI can be hard for a lot of people.
| They say the key thing is make sure you're retiring _to_
| something rather than _from_ something.
|
| I'm about halfway to FI and simply cannot _wait_ to start
| spending most of time working on all the gajillion projects
| that interest me but (probably) won't make much money.
| xsmasher wrote:
| I depend on work for income, but also get some social activity
| and a steady stream of "interesting-enough" problems to solve.
|
| If the need for income goes away I still need to replace the
| other two.
| criddell wrote:
| > I was so bored just exercising and consuming content
|
| Is that all you wanted to do? I'm pretty sure if I could afford
| to be retired it would be a long, long time before I got bored.
| Yes I would exercise more and catch up on TV and movies that
| I've missed over the years, but I also have a lot of hobbies
| that I would like to work on. There are local organizations I
| would like to volunteer for. There are lots of classes I would
| want to take or audit. I'd visit friends and family I haven't
| seen in years.
|
| I might even be like your dad and find a job that I enjoy
| doing. That's a whole different thing than working because you
| have to.
| koonsolo wrote:
| Here is some relationship advice to all the young guys here. It
| is not only some theory, this is painful experience of real life.
|
| If there would be no women, we would all still be hunter
| gatherers. Hunting for a small bit of the day, and for the rest
| doing nothing and sitting in the tree.
|
| If you put women into the equation, they want a roof over their
| head. So they pick a partner who can provide that. So now we all
| work a bit extra to get the roof. But now the most wanted woman
| is most interested in the guy with the biggest roof. So now there
| is a competition. Women picking the most capable guys. Now the
| race is on.
|
| If you think the modern women think differently now, you are very
| wrong.
|
| Now, after this story, you might think I am a very sexist person.
| But you think wrong. I took care of my 3 kids during my fulltime
| job, while my wife was constantly on business trips. I love
| taking care of my kids, I help out in the household, etc. I am
| what they call a "new/modern man".
|
| But don't think that any women has any respect for a guy that is
| not a "real man", getting ahead of all the others. If she thinks
| you are a lazy loser, she will make the jump.
| z77dj3kl wrote:
| This would probably come across better if you didn't phrase it
| in terms of genders (assuming you believe it's not a gendered
| phenomenon). I'm sure a majority of people choose a partner
| largely based on their status and achievements (whatever
| metrics they use for that).
| koonsolo wrote:
| My wife is a relationship coach, and what women want in a
| partner is very different than what men want.
|
| To keep it short, men want "pretty", women want "successful".
|
| You cannot just discard evolution and biological differences
| when it comes down to partner preferences. I believe in
| gender equality, and gender differences. Both can coexist.
| istjohn wrote:
| The world isn't that simple. It also seems a little self-
| serving to lay the blame for materialism at the feet of women.
| Someone else might argue capitalism is just a testosterone
| fueled pissing contest, men competing to see who has the
| largest...bank account. Both accounts are reductive and wrong.
| koonsolo wrote:
| You are right that I painted an extreme view here, and
| reality is definitely more nuanced.
|
| But I hope I made my point that women are attracted to
| successful men. And if you don't belong in that group
| (anymore), they will quickly lose interest.
| jacquesm wrote:
| TLDR: life can change in ways that mess with your expectations,
| therefore better be prepared. Also: FI on bare basics may seem
| like a great idea until (1) your spouse leaves you or (2) you get
| ill or (3) both.
|
| So sorry for seeing reality catch up with you, and nice to see
| you admit it.
| eric_b wrote:
| I really struggled with the author's tone. It dripped of
| condescension towards those who live a "normal" lifestyle.
|
| I enjoy working. I find purpose and meaning it. I do not let it
| dominate my life, but without it I would feel incomplete. I run
| my own business now, and that is very satisfying - but even when
| I was a corporate consultant I found a lot of enjoyment from
| spending time with my coworkers, solving problems, and having
| something to do every day.
|
| For me anyways, a nice salary is also a form of validation and
| affirmation. That the effort you're expending is valued - at
| least by someone.
| mcguire wrote:
| " _...she had acquired, somehow, New Life Dreams, which had to
| do with Conspicuous Consumption and Keeping Up and being
| Visibly Awesome..._ "
|
| I was thinking the same thing: geeze, isn't there anything
| between virtue signalling early retirement and conspicuous
| consumption?
| ssully wrote:
| He mulls over and comes to the conclusion later in his post
| that he probably could have done more to save his
| relationship. Just based off of the sentence you quoted and
| other things he said, I wouldn't be surprised if he was very
| dismissive of his ex-wifes struggle to find meaning, or
| desire to go back to work. Cheating is terrible, but having a
| partner who doesn't try to see your struggles can be
| crippling.
| joshuaissac wrote:
| > I wouldn't be surprised if he was very dismissive of his
| ex-wifes struggle to find meaning, or desire to go back to
| work.
|
| What you are saying is in direct contradiction with what he
| says in the article:
|
| > I encouraged her to explore her own life and find
| activities and goals that would help her feel better. I
| suggested therapy and offered to go with her. I was clear
| that if she wanted to go back to work I was eager to
| support her in this. I wanted her to do anything that might
| help. But my suggestions and support weren't enough
| bobcostas55 wrote:
| It's pretty obvious that what she wanted was not for her
| to go back to work, but for _him_ to go back to work and
| earn more money.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Yea it sounds like he just didn't really beta test his FI
| ideas with his wife before launching, and then found out
| later that they have an irreconcilably different view of
| what life should be all about. She wanted to keep up with
| mythical Joneses and he didn't. Things were fine while
| their interests were aligned (accumulating wealth), but
| went south when the appearance of "falling behind"
| started in. I don't think anyone was wrong here (besides
| the infidelity)--just different world views that ended up
| being incompatible.
|
| If I wasn't married with a kid, I'd be retired right now.
| I'd be perfectly content buying a $25K plot of land in
| the desert, parking a mobile home on it, and living out
| the rest of my life on $10-20K/year, but there's just no
| way on earth they'd stick around for that! Your FIRE plan
| needs to work with your whole family.
| zippergz wrote:
| This aspect was so frustrating to me. He's far too dismissive
| of the reasons people spend money and buy things.
|
| Yes, some people spend money on Louis Vuitton bags and fancy
| cars to show off. But other things people spend money on do
| legitimately make their life better, more comfortable, or
| happier. A house in a quieter neighborhood helps me sleep
| better. A bigger house, where my spouse and I can each have
| our private space helps our relationship. Clothes that fit
| well make me more comfortable. A reliable car makes my life
| less stressful. Are these things "keeping up" or "conspicuous
| consumption" just because I was not absolutely required to
| buy them? Is my partner a bad person if she'd rather have a
| quiet hotel room than stay in a hostel?
|
| I do think that it's worthwhile to be introspective about how
| you spend your money, and if the things you're spending your
| money on actually do make you happier. But this black and
| white thinking is really counterproductive.
| univerio wrote:
| It does read a bit absurd with the over-the-top proper nouns,
| but this being the author's description of their past beliefs
| led me to interpret this as their being self-critical about
| the less nuanced opinions they once held about their
| lifestyle, rather than seriously looking down their nose at
| the people who have chosen a different lifestyle.
| resonantjacket5 wrote:
| tbf he does talk throughout the post about what he was missing
| out by not having a "normal" lifestyle.
| ericd wrote:
| Eh the author was writing, not doing nothing. They just didn't
| have to worry about whether what they were doing could generate
| an income.
| eric_b wrote:
| Umm... I didn't say he was doing nothing...
|
| But to further clarify -
|
| My point was that work/income generation can add meaning and
| validation for lots of folks. Even the author hints at this -
| his writing wasn't taking off, no one was reading what he
| wrote, and he was getting discouraged.
|
| I dabble making music. I'm pretty good at it by hobbyist
| standards, but if I ever tried it "full time" no one would
| pay me and I'd never get huge. That's just the breaks in
| creative endeavors. My point is that I'd need a heck of a lot
| more validation and affirmation in my life than making music
| no one listens to. I suspect the same is true of the author
| and his writing.
| ericd wrote:
| You're right, I should've said he was working, just not for
| money. Your post seemed to be about how you enjoyed
| working, and how he was being condescending toward that,
| and that's why I mentioned that he was also working. You
| like running a business, he likes writing.
|
| I thought the condescension in the author's post was more
| towards getting validation from buying material things _and
| basing their sense of self-worth on that_ , and a criticism
| of that part of our culture, not so much toward the idea of
| people working for money in and of itself.
|
| But that's a very fair point you make, about the need for
| validation, and how people get it from a job.
| pbuzbee wrote:
| It is a little condescending, but I think it serves the purpose
| of illustrating the divide the author feels between himself and
| his peers. It's hard to relate when one side sees work as time
| spent purely for money, and another sees work as a source of
| satisfaction.
| andyxor wrote:
| interesting read, the author got lucky his ex-wife didn't sue him
| for half of the 'nest-egg' and alimony, the whole FI dream would
| have gone up in smoke.
| simonebrunozzi wrote:
| FI = Financial Indipendence
|
| Sometimes acronyms are not immediately easy to guess.
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| I liked this piece. It is well written and the author has good
| self awareness which is helping them in their journey.
|
| I also see in it a common question which the author hints at but
| doesn't seem to land on, "What is my purpose?"
|
| I get emails from people sometimes who write "I want to be rich!
| Tell me how to do that." and I always ask them "Why do you want
| to be rich?" It is however also the question the FIRE folks
| should also be asking.
|
| Here is a clue, no amount of money will make you happy or
| satisfied with your life, if your life has no purpose. And that
| purpose has to come from inside of you, not from some external
| source. Having kids may align your brain with the 'purpose' of
| raising and launching those kids into the world.
|
| But folks who retire "early" (what is early) and have no purpose
| find retired life fun for a couple of years and then it loses a
| lot of its luster. They need a 'job' which gives them purpose.
|
| And the longer you live the more you realize there is no "win"
| square at the end of your life, your life just stops. While that
| can be depressing, it can also be liberating. Consider how you
| can fix one small problem, provide durable support for one person
| or group of people who need support, and you start to realize
| that even after you are dead they will still be supported, and
| the problem will still be fixed. That is "winning."
|
| I didn't realize any of this until I had kids. I mean up to that
| point my path was "learn all the things, get rich, and retire to
| a life of leisure." But I did have kids, and I found I got much
| more satisfaction out of the path of "Help launch these new
| people into the world so that their impact is positive and your
| own contribution to the world lives on." Many writers have
| written, "We live on through the lives and deeds of our
| children." and I found that much more profound once I _had_
| children.
|
| In my professional life I found I get the same sense of
| accomplishment when I help someone move to their next phase, when
| I was presiding over the robotics club it was great to help new
| members build their first robot and to see where they took it.
|
| Doing those things doesn't require being "rich" or being
| "famous." It just requires me to take time to help on things when
| I can with advice and guidance. I found it was the difference
| between "having a purpose" and my earlier goal of "get rich and
| retire."
| j7ake wrote:
| One thing that came to mind while reading was how sensitive the
| "financial independence" path was to unexpected changes in life.
|
| If ones model financial independence is so fragile that "comfort
| spending" is not included in the analysis, then I am not quite
| sure one can call that strategy financial independence.
| kelnos wrote:
| Right. I think a lot of people model their future financial
| needs on their current situation and current level of expenses,
| with moderate yearly increases, and that just isn't realistic.
| Even people who do take it into account don't go far enough
| IMO.
|
| Then again, there are some medical diagnoses that will bankrupt
| you (in the US) even if you're employed and have good
| insurance, so I think there are some things you can safely not
| make part of the equation.
|
| I can totally understand and forgive not modeling "what happens
| if my partner and I divorce", but it's something people need to
| consider.
| beefield wrote:
| As much as it is worthless to give advice in internet to
| strangers, I would advice all FIRE people to give a try of RE for
| a decent amount of time (say at least a year) already before FI.
| It is way easier to come up with money to live off for a year as
| opposed to the rest of your life. And frankly, I am quite sure
| most people do not like RE. Unless you count as RE a life where
| you do _some_ kind of work that may pay less but what you really
| enjoy. In that case, why wait for FI and waste many years doing
| something you do not like? (Of course there are exceptions) And
| if you can 't handle the risk of dropping out of your current job
| for a year, you may also want to seriously think if you can
| handle the risk of RE regardless of what your spreadsheet says,
| and again consider wheher you are wasting your life waiting for
| something you actually do not want.
| airhead969 wrote:
| I need to work again for about 10 years and then be FI.
| sibeliuss wrote:
| Thank you! I really appreciated the honesty in this piece.
| jplr8922 wrote:
| Amen to this blog post. Quality inter independence with other is
| more important than financial independence
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Some people like to say they need to work to not be bored. I'd
| rather just be bored. If I didn't need to work then I wouldn't
| and I'd rather be bored with it. But I have plenty of stuff I
| could be doing instead of wasting life doing work.
| rantwasp wrote:
| I like the author's follow up. It provides good insight into what
| FI/RE can turn into and it also helps both people that are
| thinking of FI and both people that don't know what is/hate the
| concept.
|
| There is something deep in there about social bonds and being
| able to relate to people. As long as most people work themselves
| to death, people that go the FI route will always feel
| ostracized/left out. It's just how social things work :(
|
| I also like how the author recognized the issues that were
| cropping up and actually course-corrected. I find this highly
| unusual and I am really happy it worked out.
| hintymad wrote:
| My take-away is that what really matters is not financial
| independence (it's nonetheless really nice), but independence.
| And the real independence comes from continued ability to work,
| being able to choose the job that one enjoys, and the freedom of
| choosing how to spend one's time. Freedom of choosing how to
| spend one's time is probably the hardest to achieve.
| xwdv wrote:
| No, financial independence is what matters in a world where
| returns on capital will greatly outperform returns on labor.
| jsdalton wrote:
| Out of curiosity where are you finding high returns on
| capital today? I just don't see them. (As an engineer,
| conversely, I see very high returns on my labor.)
| xwdv wrote:
| Last year I made 80% across my entire tech portfolio.
| That's a good start.
| hintymad wrote:
| As an engineer, I see high capital gain from my labor by
| joining "blow-out" startups, as described by some article
| written by Wealthfront. Working for a blowing-out startup
| so far is the best choice for an engineer like me, who is
| not good at navigating dynamics of a large company nor good
| at investing nor interested in real estate as many fellow
| engineers are in Silicon Valley. I personally enjoy the
| following perks besides decent cash payment:
|
| - Problems come to me instead of me fighting with other
| teams for fun projects.
|
| - Abundant opportunities for career growth, be it tech
| leadership or managerial hierarchies.
|
| - Surprisingly high cumulated chance of getting meaningful
| equity, as long as you switch company quickly when you no
| longer enjoy your work.
|
| What do I have to do to get into such startups? Well,
| getting good at leetcode in the early years, and working
| hard to get a reputation so I don't have to do hard
| leetcode problems nowadays. I enjoy working on CS
| fundamentals and applying them, so working on leetcode is
| never an issue, and working hard is what engineers enjoy
| anyway.
| smabie wrote:
| A simplification, but returns in an efficient market are
| synthetic: i.e you can target what kind of returns you want
| wrt volatility.
|
| But speaking a little more concretely, markets have been on
| a tear: stocks, crypto, bonds, whatever.
| kleinsch wrote:
| The stock market has gone through the roof for the last six
| months. Where aren't you seeing returns on capital?
| nightski wrote:
| I have been dollar cost averaging straight into VTSAX for
| the past couple of years and have seen something like a 40%
| annualized return lol. That probably won't continue, but
| what a ride.
| didibus wrote:
| It's nice to see someone's honest thoughts. Though I can't help
| but find the person a little judgemental of their prior partner,
| or people who don't mind working. I also feel like they must have
| had a strange group of friends, 30k is the US median income, but
| it seems they only had friends making way more and also somehow
| being money obsessed.
|
| I do like the conclusion though, we're social animals, and the
| issue with early retirement is that you're the only one with free
| time during work hours. They were lucky to have a partner to
| share their time with, but in my humble opinion, it isn't healthy
| for a relationship to depend on a single person that heavily. The
| lack of time spent with others means this one person is all you
| have to distract yourself, and I think that puts stress on a
| relationship.
|
| I've never tried FI and early retirement, it's never really been
| something I've found appealing. That said, I've heard some takes
| on FI where they say it isn't so much that you'd stop working,
| but that you no longer depend on work. That means once you have
| financial freedom from work, you're free to see work as a hobby,
| and be much pickier about what work you do, where you work, how
| you allow yourself to be treated at work, etc. Since you know you
| can walk out at any time, since work isn't something you depend
| on. It gives you the big end of the stick in negotiating with
| employers, and that in itself is freeing. I think if I were to do
| FI, that's the type of FI I'd be interested in personally.
| beforeolives wrote:
| > That means once you have financial freedom from work, you're
| free to see work as a hobby, and be much pickier about what
| work you do, where you work, how you allow yourself to be
| treated at work, etc. Since you know you can walk out at any
| time, since work isn't something you depend on. It gives you
| the big end of the stick in negotiating with employers, and
| that in itself is freeing.
|
| You can get this if your skills are currently in demand and
| have a few months of expenses saved up. You don't need to get
| to financial independence to have a healthy relationship with
| your job.
| ghaff wrote:
| There's a big difference between "If I lose/quit my job I
| _really_ need to find one in the next few months although it
| shouldn 't be _too_ hard " and "If I lose/quit my job, I
| don't really need another one but maybe I'll find one if it's
| a good enough match someday... or not."
|
| The second is a lot more relaxing.
| stocknoob wrote:
| Yep, that's the point of FI. You can pick what you want to do
| with your life, whether that's working or not. Those who say "I
| don't see the point of being FI, I want to work my entire life"
| is like saying "I don't see the point of a BATNA in a
| negotiation".
| ku-man wrote:
| Don't trust women. Ever.
| boplicity wrote:
| In my early twenties, I had a business mostly on autopilot that
| let me work maybe an hour a day. I mostly spent my time writing
| poetry, hiking, making friends, etc. It was great. It was not
| sustainable, but it was perfect for a twenty something exploring
| the joys and freedoms of youth.
|
| Now, I work much harder, have kids, and responsibilities. That
| being said, I know the work I do is meaningful, and serves many
| people. We have significant savings. Though living in a big city
| means we can't retire early. That's beside the point though: I
| motivate myself to work because it is meaningful. The same with
| kids: I don't do things because I enjoy them, I do them in the
| service of my kids and my family. Reading the story in the OP, I
| get the sense that the OP hasn't made that transition to thinking
| about work in terms of serving others. A happy life is not a life
| of retirement, its a life of meaning. What was meaningful once
| (aiming for retirement), loses its meaning once it has been
| attained. You have to keep moving forward. This is not about
| "Keeping Up," but about stepping outside of oneself, and learning
| to put others ahead, even if it requires personal suffering.
| (Something parents of young children know very well.)
| kev009 wrote:
| This is a beautiful comment. Thanks for sharing.
| Justsignedup wrote:
| Both things can be true. I both enjoy the moments when I can be
| selfish and live for my enjoyment, and the moments when I focus
| my life and goals bringing joy to my child and family.
|
| I also joke about wanting to do nothing for a year. About 2-3
| weeks in I'm ready to take on a full workload again. I once was
| unemployed for 2 months, I thought it'd be a vacation. I hated
| it after the first month.
| marban wrote:
| Kids, family and other obligations you opt in might define the
| meaning of life for you -- For others it could be the exact
| opposite, or the beginning of the end.
| boplicity wrote:
| Yes -- I agree. The specifics of meaning are idiosyncratic to
| the individual. We shouldn't assume that things that are
| meaningful to us will be meaningful to others!
| lutorm wrote:
| Except "retirement" simply means "not having to work to
| survive". It doesn't mean doing nothing, it means having the
| freedom to choose to do things that are meaningful to you.
| pinkybanana wrote:
| In common language it doesn't. Many people who choose to work
| don't need the job to survive. I know ridiculously wealthy
| people who just keep working the usual way. No one says those
| people are retired.
|
| While retirement is cool, I think life goes better without
| thinking too much about it. Try to work at a job that doesn't
| suck ass, try to have hobbies and free time, focus on family
| etc, invest your savings, don't buy stupid stuff. The level
| of financial freedom will increase in your life just
| automatically if you live rationally.
| lutorm wrote:
| In common language it might not, but in this "FIRE"
| context, it most certainly does. Arguing that FIRE is
| misguided because "why would anyone want to sit on their
| ass for 30 years" is a strawman.
| thesuitonym wrote:
| >Try to work at a job that doesn't suck ass
|
| I've been trying to do that since I entered the workforce.
| I still haven't found it.
| guidoism wrote:
| Yeah we really don't have a good word for this in English.
| I have trouble describing what I do. Being a parent and
| educating your children at home is exhausting so it doesn't
| fit with the common understanding of retirement.
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| "independently wealthy" is the normal word choice. Or
| "fuck you money" from the gambler
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJjKP8vYjpQ
| lupire wrote:
| The word is "financial independence". It's only half for
| "FIRE".
| [deleted]
| dominotw wrote:
| > A happy life is not a life of retirement, its a life of
| meaning. What was meaningful once (aiming for retirement),
| loses its meaning once it has been attained. You have to keep
| moving forward.
|
| you figured out the meaning of life for everyone?
|
| maybe you are rationalizing your own lack of freedom from work
| and responsibility as "serving others" and secret to happiness.
| Which is fine but its a bit weird to say that applies to
| everyone and ppl who aren't doing have just not made that
| "transition" to a life of meaning.
|
| I am glad You figured out formula of happiness for your life
| don't you think everyone else has the same freedom to figure
| out their own path and formula. Why do you think everyone
| should follow your universal formula.
| nx7487 wrote:
| If you have a different opinion, then you're probably not
| looking for advice. This guy is writing a comment for people
| that don't know what the purpose of life is exactly, and who
| are looking for other people's opinions.
| geswit2x wrote:
| I think you are not FIRE, and you want to be, lmao
| d23 wrote:
| I appreciate the author writing this. Cutting this down to its
| essence, the guy managed to quit working for a significant chunk
| of time, went through a major health crisis, lost his wife, and
| still managed to increase his net worth over that period. The
| emotional aspect is obviously tough, but the fact that he was
| financially responsible and had a big nest egg gave him a huge
| cushion to work off of.
|
| Financial independence doesn't have to be a binary thing. I'd
| like to achieve it not so I can sit around and do nothing but in
| fact so I can do whatever I want. I appreciate the author's
| candidness. It's important not to look at any of these things as
| fixed, and it's important not to oversimplify.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| I don't think there is anything really wrong with FIRE itself.
| What I do think is that many people working towards FIRE don't
| know how to be happy and think that work is the only thing
| between them and happiness.
|
| The other problem is that extremely frugal people are going to
| have a harder time making and maintaining friendships, because
| people bond over activities that cost money. I would argue that
| being able to quickly and systematically create deep, high-
| quality relationships is as important if not more important to
| FIRE than actually having the money.
| varispeed wrote:
| This is something I cannot understand. Why would you want to
| retire so early? I think that would impact my mental health
| negatively. I just love to work and I couldn't care less about
| FI. I mean it's nice to have money, but this will sound cliche it
| will not buy you happiness. However, it is certainly better to
| cry in a luxury apartment than under a bridge to your dog.
| neogodless wrote:
| > something I cannot understand
|
| > I just love to work
|
| I think your own personal circumstances apply _to you_. Have
| you met any people who do not love to work?
|
| Also, understand that in Financial Independence, "independence"
| means having complete control over your decision-making. You
| can attain it, and then choose to work, or choose to vacation,
| or choose to read books, or choose to play video games, or
| choose to write a novel, or choose to take up some other
| creative endeavor, or choose to push your body to its limits -
| and you will not be constrained by the remainder of your hours
| left after your work day is over.
| mypalmike wrote:
| The blog explains that he does not love to work. At least not
| in the field that he is skilled in.
| firedating wrote:
| I think most often 'retiring' is not meant literally. In other
| words, one does not work at an ordinary job anymore, but they
| pursue other endeavors. They might even 'work' more after
| 'retiring'. It is true that FIRE does not buy happiness, but it
| is a nice tool if for example you like your hobby more than the
| current job.
| varispeed wrote:
| I am on a spectrum, so there you go... Thank you
| dfxm12 wrote:
| You don't need a job to work.
|
| Do you love to work, or do you love something else about your
| job?
| kelnos wrote:
| Consider that "working" and "having a job" aren't necessarily
| the same thing. You can absolutely retire early, not have a
| job, but continue working. Many people would not only find that
| fulfilling, but very freeing, as their livelihood is no longer
| tied to their ability to hold a job, or the ability of their
| company to stay solvent.
|
| Also consider that many people do not, like you, love to work.
|
| Money doesn't buy happiness, but not having enough of it is a
| great recipe for being unhappy. I think there are coarsely
| three levels of personal finance:
|
| 1) You live paycheck to paycheck (or worse) and are constantly
| anxious about your finances.
|
| 2) You have some savings and live comfortably enough. You might
| want more, but not having more doesn't outright kill your
| happiness.
|
| 3) You have enough money that you can live comfortably, even if
| you decide to stop working, without much (or anything) in the
| way of unmet wants.
|
| The vast majority of people are in one of the first two
| buckets. Getting to the third one isn't possible for most
| people, unfortunately, and trying to get there could actively
| make some people's lives worse. But all other things being
| equal (which is vanishingly rare), the third bucket is
| objectively better than the second.
| leetcrew wrote:
| the simple answer is that not everyone loves to work.
| personally I hate doing anything (including stuff I would
| otherwise enjoy) that has to be completed according to a
| schedule and evaluated by other people.
|
| but even if you do enjoy working, it's still great to be FI.
| you can choose the most interesting job and ignore the salary.
| stocknoob wrote:
| People seem to hyperfocus on RE when most of the joy is from
| FI. Keep working if you want to. That's different than working
| because you'll be under a bridge if you don't.
| bityard wrote:
| My situation, as someone attempting financial independence: I
| don't mind work, what I mind is someone else telling me what I
| have to work on and when it needs to be done. FI will put the
| ball in my court. Once I have enough passive income to cover my
| family's living expenses, _I_ get to choose what I work on,
| even if it makes little to no money. But of course I will
| sometimes choose to work on things that will generate
| significant chunks of money.
| npsimons wrote:
| I'll second all of this: if I wasn't getting paid for working
| on the projects at my day job, I wouldn't work on them.
|
| I've got tons of ideas and cool projects I want to work on
| (some I've even made decent progress on in my spare time),
| but I don't know if they'd be profitable, nor do I want to
| worry about that. I just want to code on stuff I like.
| benjohnson wrote:
| A very useful read because the author is brutally honest.
|
| For me, while financially independent, I must have something that
| gets me out of bed every day - give me too much open-ended time
| and I wither.
|
| I suspect that a lot of introspection is valuable in order to
| successfully navigate the withdrawal from typical society.
| Pandabob wrote:
| He mentions MRIs costing 2-3kEUR a pop. That seems really
| expensive. I'm guessing this is US? Doesn't competition push down
| the price of these operations? We've got private clinics in
| Finland offering MRIs from ~230EUR without any subsidies (AFAIK).
| DanBC wrote:
| The US has this thing in some states called "certificates of
| need". People who support the US market driven healthcare will
| say that interferences like CoN distort the market and prevent
| it working properly.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| I'm with Kenneth Arrow[1], markets for healthcare don't work,
| can never be made to work.
|
| [1] 'Uncertainty and the welfare economics of medical care -
| 1963'
| danaliv wrote:
| _> Doesn't competition push down the price of [MRIs in the
| US]?_
|
| Oh, you sweet, innocent babe.
|
| Praise your lucky stars for every single day that you don't
| have to deal with our "health care" system.
| renewiltord wrote:
| The US imposes limits of practitioners to keep income high.
| CogitoCogito wrote:
| The US healthcare system isn't really a very good model of
| market competition.
| jbn wrote:
| on the contrary (and to your implied point, if i'm not
| mistaken), it's more like a cartel bent on extracting the
| most value out of the "consumer"...
| npsimons wrote:
| Oh yeah, it's working very well, _for the shareholders_.
| corry wrote:
| Kudos to people who go FIRE without state-provided healthcare -
| from a "typical brainwashed Canadian" POV you're one health
| mishap / one ambulance-ride's worth of unexpected medical costs
| to kill the entire dream.
|
| Also - no kids - huge variable for FIRE obviously, but perhaps
| less obviously ALSO a huge variable for life's purpose.
|
| Something I've seen in my friend and family group is that a lot
| of couples hit a point where the answer to the "what's the point
| of all this?" is to create a family. Sorry if that sounded
| crushingly heteronormative - but this also includes gay folks in
| our life.
|
| Not suggesting that everyone should have kids, or that the
| childfree people are somehow bad, or even that it's not a
| rational choice to go childfree. All good to those thinking that
| way.
|
| But. If your conclusion is that love and connection is what life
| is all about (assume Maslow's lower levels are covered), then
| having children is possibly the magical thing missing. Not
| necessarily for everyone. But it's a game-changer for many of us
| and provides some incredible direction and purpose (as well as
| very low low's and constant anxieties).
|
| Having children also can change your priorities in how you spend
| your own life. For me personally, I'd want my children to see me
| working hard at something; having adventures; building things;
| changing things for the better. All of that can happen inside the
| typical FIRE life. But as he points out, your life gradually
| disconnects from things if you're truly independent and separate.
| And unless your wealth is large enough that your children will
| also be FIRE, you really want them to learn from you in how to
| navigate "the typical world" of jobs, managing finances, etc.
| samvher wrote:
| As someone who is about to get a first child - what kind of low
| lows should I brace myself for?
| corry wrote:
| Well, first let me say that being a parent is the best thing
| in my life (and there is a lot of very good stuff in my
| life), so don't over-index on what I'm about to say next.
| You'll be fine and better for it!
|
| You might have heard the quote "To love at all is to be
| vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and
| possibly broken."
|
| YMMV but the lowest of the low are the times when you feel
| the reality that you have become utterly, completely,
| impossibly vulnerable in a way that you've never felt before.
| Speaking for myself, I haven't loved anything in my life even
| remotely closely to how I love my kids. Closest thing is my
| wife (and I _really_ love her).
|
| You go from... not wanting your plane to crash because, you
| know, it would suck to die and your spouse would be
| wrecked... to... my kids will grow up without me there to
| teach them, keep them safe, show them love. The angst I feel
| towards that is about 10000x worse than in how I thought
| about dying before kids.
|
| Heck even your understanding of "my parents would be sad if I
| died as a 30-year-old man" changes. No parent should ever
| have to outlive their child.
|
| Every headline that right now seems like a "sad story" - a
| parent losing a child, a child losing a parent, kids in
| cages, a daughter and father who are estranged, etc --
| becomes an absolutely wrenching sadness if you even FLIRT
| with the idea of "what if that happened to me/my child"? You
| develop sensitivities that you are surprised at. You realize
| you have inherited an impossible and awesome responsibility
| of providing for, protecting, loving little blank slates of
| humanity... in a chaotic and dangerous world.
|
| There's no answer to it except to do your best, and hope/pray
| that you never have to face the unfaceable.
|
| That feeling isn't always present. But that's the dark shadow
| that occasionally crosses the sun.
|
| Oh and BTW - this love doesn't just magically appear for
| everyone right away. I know lots of fathers especially who
| don't feel much right away, but as you see your children go
| from blobs to little people, you fall in love with them. So
| don't sweat asking yourself if you're feeling it. Just let it
| happen. :)
| kelnos wrote:
| Hell, we just adopted a kitten 4 months ago, and the
| realization that he'll die in 15 years or so absolutely
| devastated me to the point that I started crying. He ate a
| (plastic) feather from one of his toys last week and I
| couldn't sleep that night (and kept checking on him)
| because I was afraid it would rupture his stomach or
| intestines and he'd die. I imagine these sorts of feelings
| are magnified a thousandfold when it's a human child.
| bolasanibk wrote:
| > Every headline that right now seems like a "sad story" -
| a parent losing a child, a child losing a parent,
|
| > kids in cages, a daughter and father who are estranged,
| etc -- becomes an absolutely wrenching sadness if
|
| > you even FLIRT with the idea of "what if that happened to
| me/my child"? You develop sensitivities that you
|
| > are surprised at. You realize you have inherited an
| impossible and awesome responsibility of providing for,
|
| > protecting, loving little blank slates of humanity... in
| a chaotic and dangerous world.
|
| This was something I was not prepared for when I had my
| son. I cannot watch media or news stories where kids suffer
| or get hurt.
| corry wrote:
| Agreed 100%. Occasionally my wife and I will be watching
| something that features some violence or threat to
| children and we just look at each other like "why are we
| voluntarily watching this and vicariously feeling these
| things?" and shut it off.
|
| Clearly people get desensitized to it, both as viewers
| and as writers. Christopher Nolan, for instance, is a
| parent but all of his movies have tough child dynamics
| (e.g. Inception and Leo's character trying to see his
| kids again).
|
| Maybe by writing stories like that you can exorcise the
| demon a bit?
| dash2 wrote:
| If this deep connection is the bad stuff, what is the good
| stuff?
| greedo wrote:
| This deep connection is the good stuff. The really bad
| stuff is learning to let go of your kids, watching this
| connection change and hoping that it changes into
| something even deeper.
| corry wrote:
| The bad stuff is just a consequence of loving someone in
| a very deep way.
|
| I don't think I can define the "value of love" beyond
| saying that the upside is fairly basic stuff -
| fulfillment, joy, affection, pride, self-discovery,
| character building from not putting yourself first and
| from serving others, etc.
| biesnecker wrote:
| Every low you have now, but dealing with it while responsible
| for the life of a tiny person you inexplicably love more than
| anything else in the world, on zero sleep.
| gh-throw wrote:
| - Any health problems for anyone concerned in the first
| couple months (which is when it's most likely, for the mother
| and baby in particular, obviously) will be _really, really_
| bad, as far as making those weeks much worse than they 'd
| otherwise be.
|
| - If you get very unlucky (sometimes) or suck at sleep
| training (way, way more often) get ready for years of bad
| sleep, yourself. If you're good at this the dreaded "sleep
| zombie" stage of parenting is only ~2-3 months long, though,
| so no big deal in the scheme of things, and even better if
| you've got a spouse who isn't the kind of person to "punish"
| their partner any time they have to be awake by making them
| also be awake (lots of people truly are like this, and I
| think it's nuts, if you do some good trading-off with one
| another, then the first couple months are actually really
| easy and you'll only be sleep-deprived like half the time, at
| worst)
|
| - If your kid is sick, at all, then sleep in those early
| weeks will be exceptionally terrible, as kid illnesses tend
| to manifest in frequent waking & crying that can't always be
| assuaged with milk or rocking or whatever. Even a mild
| illness can make those early nights damn dark, and you may
| have trouble figuring out what's wrong (may take shopping for
| a doctor to find one who won't just rudely brush you off as a
| newbie parent with a "colicky" baby and actually listen to
| you and try to figure it out)
|
| - They can be incredibly expensive, for all kinds of reasons,
| including but not limited to healthcare expenses (in the US),
| damage (ours have done over a thousand dollars of damage to
| stuff around our house in some years, more if we counted the
| rate of wear on e.g. flooring or the cost to pay for repairs
| on all kinds of things that we were able to do ourselves very
| cheaply), education (paid directly or, more commonly, in much
| higher housing expenses than you'd otherwise have). Oh and as
| they get older, food. (clothes and toys are negligible
| expenses compared to the rest, unless you don't want them to
| be)
|
| Basically if no-one gets sick and you take sleep training
| seriously, they're just expensive and everything else is
| barely a problem... until they get old enough to start going
| places on their own, and then you get a whole new set of
| worries :-)
| abraxas wrote:
| Immediately it's the sleep deprivation which is basically a
| form of torture, remember. Then there are anxieties about
| their well being and their health on occasion. Later in
| teenage years about how they are starting to run their own
| lives and are they maybe veering into dangerous areas (eg
| hard drugs). Then there are worries about how their life is
| turning out as adults. The anxiety doesn't stop but it's also
| the most important adventure in your life that no amount of
| traveling, home improvements, social media bragging can match
| despite what the child-free crowd seems to believe.
| jdashg wrote:
| At FIRE levels, exposure to healthcare-related bankruptcy is
| basically none, as long as your rising-with-age insurance
| premiums don't price you out. It's still not great, but
| insurance does do its job. (especially when you have the free
| time to chase down billing mistakes)
| nightski wrote:
| I don't know, as a freelancer high deductible health care plans
| are not that expensive. Like $100-200/mo. If you have kids that
| price would be higher, but then it's going to be a lot harder
| to FIRE anyways.
| dkarp wrote:
| Short Version:
|
| - LeanFIRE in 2015 (~30Kish USD annual spend)
|
| - first couple years were great, in the third year cracks started
| to show
|
| - they and their partner's goals were no longer aligned and they
| ended up splitting
|
| - OP was diagnosed with a genetic condition that changed their
| expenses and lifestyle
|
| - Ended up getting a job again at the end, but while "retired"
| their net worth actually increased by 20%
| [deleted]
| sidlls wrote:
| I always get a kick out of people who think they're financially
| independent with such a small stash. Outside some regions with
| relatively extreme living conditions (e.g. undeveloped and
| underdeveloped countries), the amount he retired with was never
| going to be enough to sustain even minor shocks and last the rest
| of his life.
|
| He had a minor shock (breakup) and a major shock (health
| condition) and realized this error early enough to have time to
| correct. Not everyone who follows the "leanFIRE" approach is they
| fortunate.
| jacquesm wrote:
| Especially not in the USA when the least of a health issue can
| eat up your savings in a couple of short months unless you have
| extremely good health coverage, which only the rich (who don't
| actually need it ...) have.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Yes, healthcare in the US is a major concern. Hopefully we'll
| see the ACA get shored up here with a much more favorable
| administration - it certainly won't get any worse for the
| next ~4 years anyway. A couple that's withdrawing $40K/year
| from their retirement accounts is still going to get a pretty
| good subsidy on their premiums through the ACA which makes
| FIRE possible if you keep your income (and thus your
| expenses) down.
| mypalmike wrote:
| It's not perfect, but maximum annual out-of-pocket for an
| individual ACA plan is $8550, plus premiums. If that's your
| entire savings, you were certainly not FI.
| leetcrew wrote:
| I think the author is going to require expensive care on a
| yearly basis for the rest of their life. if you can't
| absorb $8550 one time, yeah you're definitely not FI. but
| if you end up maxing out your out-of-pocket every year
| until you die, that is really going to mess with a $30k/yr
| spending target.
| kelnos wrote:
| Right; an extra $8550 per year might not be hard to
| absorb if your budget (supported by a larger nest egg) is
| already $150k per year, but when it's $30k per year,
| that's a good 30% increase. Not small.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| Not sure what the definition of rich here is, but people in
| the 10% of income earners most definitely still need health
| insurance and suffer from illness. For example, my psych meds
| would be $1500 a month without insurance. Even on a software
| engineer salary, that's quite a hit.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| >> ...still need health insurance...without insurance..
|
| I think the point is that _even with health insurance_ you
| can be wiped out. I dont think any reasonable definition of
| FI /RE would suggest being without health insurance.
|
| The thing is that in a small % of cases, even with health
| insurance, you get one bad examiner, one by-the-books
| administrator who denies coverage for something, and you're
| done for.
| jdavis703 wrote:
| This is one of the advantages of an HMO. In an HMO it's
| medical staff making these calls, not random
| administrators second guessing medical professionals.
| abraxas wrote:
| Some of those dudes (eg MMM) do go without health
| insurance. Personally I think they are nuts unless they
| are OK to pack it in the moment their appendix bursts.
| blobbers wrote:
| If he had emigrated to Canada, he gets a 30% boost in currency
| and his medical bills drop to closer to $0.
|
| 1.2M is more than most people earn in a lifetime, so seems he
| should be set up for leanFIRE.
|
| That said, the article seemed pretty hilarious. I think this
| guy might be a little bit unobservant. The cracks form early
| but he insists that he's blissfully happy. It seems like he
| didn't really know his partner that well to begin with.
| smnrchrds wrote:
| You cannot immigrate to Canada if you have a medical
| condition that is deemed expensive. Also, even without health
| issues, immigrating to Canada is far from trivial and not
| something many can do.
| cheradenine_uk wrote:
| We live in the UK, in an "expensive" region (south-east). Our
| average expenditure, excluding mortgage payments, over the last
| 10 years has been, roughly, PS25K p/a.
|
| We're hardly living a bread and water lifestyle.
|
| When we hit 67, the state pension alone will give us > PS18k.
| You just need enough to bridge the gap.
|
| The truth is - most probably don't need anything like what they
| think they need to retire early.
|
| The system just wants them continually on the hamster wheel.
| xwdv wrote:
| 950k isn't a bad stash but he's a fool limiting himself to 4%
| withdrawals and a paltry $30k a year.
|
| He should build an aggressive stock portfolio of growth
| companies with about 60% IV each while he's still young and
| going back to work is a good emergency fallback, but for
| primary income he could just sell OTM options against his
| stocks and be making about $2k to $3k a week fairly
| conservatively with little risk of assignment at low deltas.
| cashewchoo wrote:
| OTM options is one of those things where it works great until
| it doesn't and then when it doesn't it REALLY doesn't. This
| is almost literally how we ended up with the inverse
| volatility trade collapse in 2018. Look up "XIV blow up".
|
| Betting against volatility will * _never*_ not be "picking
| up pennies in front of a steamroller".
|
| Retail investors should not touch options under any
| circumstances, anyway. They're hedging tools for institutions
| and cannon fodder for day traders.
|
| EDIT: I missed that the OP was saying to sell options for
| stocks already in your portfolio. I'll address that now:
|
| I feel like this makes it even less worthwhile? Remember,
| black swan events happen once a month in trading. I think
| people would be really surprised at how far OTM they need to
| go to truly get to a "minimal" risk of their options being
| assigned. At which point the premiums are going to truly be
| pennies. If you're making any interesting amount of money off
| of a covered trade like this, it's because you're taking on
| an interesting amount of risk.
| stocknoob wrote:
| Selling cash-secured puts and covered calls is one of the
| safest things you can do. You take on less risk (and less
| reward).
| cashewchoo wrote:
| Ah I missed that he was selling calls for stocks he owns.
| That makes it even less interesting IMO? The premiums on
| these options are small enough and now you're also
| capping upside on stocks you already own. And remember
| that black swan events happen once a month in finance, so
| I think people would be surprised how far OTM they need
| to go to actually get to a "minimal" risk of them being
| ITM.
| stocknoob wrote:
| Normally you'd wait until the volatility is a bit higher,
| sell a few covered calls against 5-10% of your shares. If
| the market jumps up, roll the calls out and sell more.
|
| If you get assigned, that's great, immediately sell a
| put. I've been able to do this against SPY/QQQ, rolling
| and never getting assigned. So it's all gravy on top of
| the existing market returns.
|
| You can eke out a few pct a year this way, but from a SWR
| perspective it's like doubling your hoard.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Selling OTM covered calls is not a trade that's going to
| blow up your account. The worst case is that you suffer a
| drawdown in your account (which is a risk of all
| investing). The second worst case is that you miss a
| massive, short-term rally.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| >> Selling OTM covered calls is not a trade that's going
| to blow up your account. The worst case is that you
| suffer a drawdown in your account (which is a risk of all
| investing). The second worst case is that you miss a
| massive, short-term rally.
|
| Depends on whether youre fully cash secured or not. If
| you are fully cash secured, you barely make $. If you're
| not, now you're leveraged and a steep draw-down can wipe
| you out.
| sokoloff wrote:
| True, but that is the case by virtue of the underlying
| investments, not because of the decision to sell OTM
| covered calls.
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| A covered call by definition means you own 100 shares for
| every contract you sell. Even if you own some of that
| stock on margin you are not increasing your risk by
| selling the calls.
| TuringNYC wrote:
| The parent was referring to OTM call selling, not covered
| calls only. Covered calls are pretty low-risk. Selling
| OTM calls includes selling puts, which is not low-risk
| unless you're unlevered (everything covered by cash.)
| tick_tock_tick wrote:
| The top parent suggested
|
| > sell OTM options against his stocks
|
| I don't see where you get the impression they were ever
| talking about selling uncovered calls. Selling out of the
| money calls has nothing to do with selling puts. As yes
| selling cash secured puts even with some leverage is
| considered very safe. Here is a fund that does just that.
|
| https://www.nb.com/en/us/products/mutual-funds/us-equity-
| ind...
| xwdv wrote:
| You are wrong and need to educate yourself.
|
| Covered calls don't add risk of ruin, you just have
| potential to miss any potential further gains if you pick a
| bad strike. This could happen anyway if you were to sell a
| stock at the wrong time for example.
| afterwalk wrote:
| What interests me most about the FI community on reddit is how
| they split into two very different subgroups(leanfire and
| fatfire). Part of it is a difference in frugality, but part of
| it is is a fundamental difference in modeling risk.
| samvher wrote:
| Do you mean that fatfire folks calculate a greater margin to
| handle risk or the other way around?
| ghaff wrote:
| Well, fatfire just has a larger bucket. If you've
| calculated a budget down to the penny (or even have a
| budget outside of in a generalized way), it's a lot harder
| to absorb unmodeled risks.
| hogFeast wrote:
| I used to work in financial services. I wasn't client-facing
| but because I had experience with financial modelling so I got
| roped into these discussions...in my experience, everyone gets
| this wrong. Advisers get it less wrong but I have still seen
| comical errors from people who should know better.
|
| But most people significantly overstate future returns
| (particularly now), they significantly understate the effect
| that volatility can have on strategies with withdrawal rates
| (any strategy involving withdrawals has to optimise for returns
| AND volatility...this is counter to the "time in the market"
| logic that most people read so can end up going very wrong),
| and they model for average final period wealth rather than 5th
| percentile (generally speaking, this happens everywhere in
| finance...modelling percentile outcomes is tricky...so most
| people just don't do it). I am not in the US but health costs
| seem to be an issue, inflation is another "black swan" that
| tends to go unconsidered.
|
| In my experience, the FIRE group are the most difficult to
| convince because the whole concept is a lifestyle or way of
| thinking not an actual strategy. I also don't understand what
| is so appealing about doing nothing...but that is maybe just me
| (I have had times in my life when I was doing nothing, those
| weren't choices and they weren't fun).
| regularfry wrote:
| It's not "doing nothing" it's "choosing to do nothing for
| anyone else", which is very different.
| hogFeast wrote:
| It is the same. What is the point of being alive if you
| aren't providing value to other people? Just sitting on
| your mountain of gold, and count it all day long.
| kelnos wrote:
| If that's your view of early retirement (or retirement in
| general), you are very very mistaken.
|
| There can be more to life than working for a paycheck,
| regardless of what we've been socially conditioned to
| believe from childhood.
| klipklop wrote:
| I feel it is more about escaping the corporate machine than
| "doing nothing." For many the modern office workplace is
| insufferable.
|
| You could argue they should go into business for themselves
| and some appear to do so.
| sokoloff wrote:
| Tools like cFireSim get this much more correct than what you
| describe above and takes literally just a few minutes to do
| basic modeling. They're still limited by historical returns,
| which is both good and bad, but certainly model very
| prominently the risk-of-ruin.
|
| https://www.cfiresim.com/ (no connection, other than very
| occasional user)
| hogFeast wrote:
| From what I can see, that doesn't look too good. There are
| likely issues with the data, which is not easily solvable
| given that complete databases are expensive. And there are
| likely issues with the modelling, it looks like the model
| is just scenario analysis. This is better than a
| misspecified parametric model (most advisers don't do
| scenario analysis either, so it is definitely
| valuable...although requires market knowledge to parse
| fully) but relies on good data...the data is not good.
|
| The correct way to do it is a Monte Carlo simulation using
| either: a good parametric model (this is very tricky,
| something like a T distribution is least worst...but is
| still bad, the ideal is some kind of regime model, proper
| volatility modelling, and something that models expectation
| accurately between regimes...tricky), or using block
| bootstrap on good historical data (more robust
| quantitatively...but again, good long-term data costs
| $100k+).
|
| So...it is straightforward if you have good data and
| understand how to build a proper event-based backtesting
| system (or code something good enough)...but, as said,
| 99.99% of advisers do not have the resources for this. In
| most cases, they are unable to buy software implementing
| this or even know they need it (I have seen this software
| but it is usually at advisers that require liquid wealth of
| $10m+...it isn't only the cost of the software but most
| advisers below this level have no quantitative skills/staff
| so don't understand why it is necessary).
|
| Again, I would be cautious about any numbers that come out,
| and focus on the 5th percentile (and understand that it is
| a wild over-estimate if the data isn't good).
| bhelkey wrote:
| > There are likely issues with the data, which is not
| easily solvable given that complete databases are
| expensive.
|
| >> cFIREsim uses historical stock/bond/gold/inflation
| data from 1871 to present[1]
|
| I am not an expert here buy my impress is that this data
| is publicly available. What data is this model missing?
|
| [1] cfiresim.com/about/
| hogFeast wrote:
| It isn't, it is expensive and time-consuming to collect
| this data, and the edge is huge (I know a fund manager
| who has been spending several million a year for the best
| part of a decade collecting historical financial
| statement data). Also, a lot of the large databases are
| known to be inaccurate (for example, CRSP). I think the
| best long-term data is Credit Suisse DSM and Global
| Financial Data (I can't attest to the accuracy of the
| latter but have heard it is good).
|
| The website says it is using Schiller's data...so the
| model is missing almost everything. Stock markets have
| existed in multiple countries for centuries, using one
| country makes no sense. It also looks like the bond data
| is totally wrong (prices rather than total returns).
| modeless wrote:
| I was thinking about making a monte carlo simulation for
| my own use. Obviously I'm not going to be spending
| millions for the data. What's the best freely or cheaply
| (i.e. not "call us for pricing") available historical
| data for stocks and bonds? Or is the free data just so
| bad it's not worth doing at all? And what are the typical
| problems with the free data?
| sokoloff wrote:
| I think there's a reasonable question of whether a Monte-
| Carlo simulation is better or worse than applying actual
| sequential returns from all 100+ starting years (which is
| what cFIREsim does and the data of which is available to
| all).
|
| For me, I'd rather backtest against all the actuals than
| to look to a Monte-Carlo sim with a distribution which is
| the same as the per-year returns, because I don't believe
| that sequence of returns year to year are entirely
| independent, but rather have a relationship to each other
| because of the longer-term business cycles. This is
| naturally accomplished by using sequential year actuals.
|
| I agree with you on focusing on the low-end/worst-case
| outcomes. I'm planning our family's retirement based on a
| 98% success rate as a minimum (and where the 2% cases can
| be managed by scaling down lifestyle rather than by
| starving).
| hogFeast wrote:
| I am not sure what you mean. Using sequential returns
| from every starting year in your database is, if I have
| understood you correctly, the same as using block
| bootstrap (at the limit, sequential returns from every
| starting year is the same as block bootstraps of lifespan
| length taken an infinite number of times).
|
| You don't look at yearly returns. There are many reasons
| for not doing this but the basic one is volatility
| clustering. Yearly returns are mostly independent, but
| volatility is not...again, that is why you use a block
| bootstrap (you can vary the length of block but for this
| kind of analysis more than once decade makes sense).
| sokoloff wrote:
| > You don't look like at pear returns
|
| I don't understand what you mean here, but I'd like to.
| Could you explain?
|
| I'm using cFIREsim to simulate 100+ different retirement
| trajectories based on historical results and ensure that
| 98% of them exceed my desired spending in all years.
| nly wrote:
| 30K/year on a 950K stash is only a 3% draw-down, which is
| considered pretty reasonable.
| Voloskaya wrote:
| It's assuming you will be fine with 30K/year over the next 40
| years that is not reasonable. So many things can change or go
| wrong and you end up needing more than that (exactly what
| happened here). If this happens relatively early and you are
| in an in demand job market, then it's not too bad. But if you
| haven't been working for the last 10 years and you are in a
| not super in demand market, you are in for a pretty bad time.
| neogodless wrote:
| Even with the minor and major shocks in his life, he ended up
| with 20% more money than he started with. The main reason he
| wants more money now is that he wants to share it with his new
| partner, and enjoy some lifestyle inflation.
|
| So I don't think it makes sense to extrapolate "leanFIRE cannot
| sustain minor shocks" from his circumstances." It certainly
| cannot sustain a certain level of lifestyle inflation, or (more
| generically) big enough changes to your expense sheet.
| sidlls wrote:
| He barely kept up with historical inflation rates (3%/year).
| Given the free availability of money in the last 2-3 years,
| it's hard to say a 20% appreciation on his capital is a
| success. In terms of real dollar value, he likely is losing
| year-over-year.
| neogodless wrote:
| Are you accounting for his spend or only looking at
| beginning and ending balances? When you retire early, you
| don't assume you'll beat inflation while also spending some
| of your principal.
| kelnos wrote:
| No, he says he has 20% more _after_ adjusting for
| inflation. He has gained 20% in real dollar value. Even if
| that 's only ~3% per year, that's fantastic on no
| (traditional) income, after accounting for expenses.
|
| Regardless, even if he was break-even or negative, that
| might be ok; most people don't expect their retirement
| savings to last forever, just until they die.
| sfblah wrote:
| The 20% gain is 100% a consequence of the Fed and the market
| mania. This experiment attempted in another 5-year span would
| have worked out totally differently.
| kelnos wrote:
| OP addresses this. He points out that when he retired, one
| of his fears was that his nest egg was propped up by market
| mania. But since then his nest egg has increased. Sure, you
| can say it might have worked out differently in different
| time periods, but that's not necessarily a problem. The
| point of making these models before retiring is to also
| take into account the pessimistic conditions, and it
| appears he did so, and judged it all still possible.
| ed25519FUUU wrote:
| The largest pitfall is definitely housing. He mentions not
| wanting to own a home. He also must accept that rent rises
| faster than inflation, and he may have to move every few
| years to cheaper and cheaper places to keep things
| balanced.
|
| If you can't guarantee you'll be able to stay in your
| community, with your friends and family, for the rest of
| you days, what's the point? Moving sucks. Not being able to
| eliminate moving is a huge lifestyle and stress liability.
| 11thEarlOfMar wrote:
| I suppose one reason people focus on early retirement is that
| their work life is unfulfilling. It may follow that a person in
| an unfulfilling job who has the agency to get themselves into a
| fulfilling job would do so. Once retired, that agency would lead
| to activities that kept them occupied, feeling valued and
| meaningful.
|
| Someone who is in an unfulfilling job and cannot make the move to
| fulfillment working is likely also not going to find retirement
| fulfilling. I'd venture that our hero actually isn't completely
| clear on what makes him tick.
| Zelphyr wrote:
| As a somewhat aside; the author points to something about finding
| therapy that I think most people don't understand which is: you
| need to find a therapist you connect with and usually you have to
| see a few before you will find one. It's not like you're finding
| a life partner, by any means. Just someone who you feel like you
| can make a connection with, who understands what you're going
| through, and can speak to you in a way that you can understand.
|
| I, for example, found a great therapist on my second try. He
| helped me tremendously but then happened to decide to retire
| right around when I felt like I didn't need to see him as much
| anymore. However, he recommended a colleague who he thought I
| would do well with who I have seen a couple of times since and it
| has worked out very well.
| lobo_tuerto wrote:
| FI == Financial Independence
| allenu wrote:
| I skimmed through maybe 50% of it, but a really great read. I'll
| try to re-read in-depth some more later.
|
| Some really good nuggets of wisdom in there, even if you are not
| planning on retiring early. I'm kind of in the same place as the
| author, although I don't think I would necessarily really retire.
| I'd just take lower-paying jobs that were more fulfilling so as
| to keep me interacting with others and giving me some sort of
| daily challenge.
|
| My takeaway from the post is you really can't predict where your
| life will go in the future. It's good to recognize that and be
| okay with it. A lot of us, myself included, are caught up in
| planning and doing the right things, but even with careful
| planning, you really don't have total control over what happens
| to you. Being resilient is an important part of moving forward.
|
| The inability to relate to those working is understandable. I
| wonder if the author had been doing something more fulfilling to
| fill his time, he would have related more to his friends? Maybe
| not on the "making money and buying things" side, but the feeling
| of progressing in something. If I were to retire early, I feel
| like I would need something to keep me occupied, some sort of
| "life's work" to keep me going. Otherwise, it just feels like
| living out the rest of your days, filling it with movies, video
| games, and books.
| TheMagicHorsey wrote:
| I have "retired" from work several times in my life, starting in
| my mid twenties, and then again in my late thirties ... and most
| recently in my mid forties.
|
| Each time I return to work. But each time it was for different
| reasons.
|
| I most recently left "retirement" to start a company. I don't
| need more money, but work keeps me sharp. My father retired in
| his sixties and immediately declined. I don't want to be like my
| dad.
| driverdan wrote:
| If you don't have any hobbies and just watch TV all day of
| course life will suck when you retire.
|
| My dad has been retired for almost 20 years and is as sharp as
| ever. He spends most of his days making things in his shop.
|
| I can't imagine living a life with nothing to look forward to
| outside of work.
| joeldg wrote:
| He did this all wrong, he didn't have a solid 'plan' for his
| retirement to keep him busy besides basically be being boring.
|
| As a writer he could have given himself writing assignments after
| a three month "chill" phase. Could have built up a back catalog
| of self-published works.
|
| Lots of things -- and even in 2015 'this' was a thing the FIRE
| websites would write about a LOT, keeping yourself occupied and
| engaged after FIRE is extremely important.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| This was a really refreshing and honest take on early retirement,
| especially among the FI blogosphere.
|
| > I looked at other FI bloggers who quit work and retired. They
| all appeared to be blissful. Stoic. Confident and without
| reservations. Since I ran into problems myself, I started to feel
| like I was defective. Like something was wrong with me and that's
| why it didn't work so well. Maybe it has to do with my
| personality (a nerdy introvert). Or it could be because I'm not
| trying to sell product and make money off of my choices, like
| almost everyone else who blogs about FI seems to.
|
| There always seemed like a potentially strange conflict of
| interest with many of the FI bloggers who are ostensibly "retired
| early", but still earn a significant amount of money from their
| FI blogs. Which isn't to say they shouldn't be earning that
| money, but it does bring up questions about some of the
| conclusions that they make. (There's also a bit of a groupthink
| or even cult-like mentality among some of them, particularly in
| the MMM sphere.)
| jacquesm wrote:
| But: he's still giving investment advice and he still doesn't
| realize just how lucky he got.
| psychiatrist24 wrote:
| You mean MMM or the author here? How do you know he "got
| lucky", since he doesn't mention how he got his nest egg?
| (Yes in a wider sense lucky to be born smart enough for a
| good job, in a country with good jobs and so on, but that
| applies to many people).
|
| Maybe he took those FI blogs seriously and dedicated himself
| to reaching that goal, and he did. And then people who never
| tried say "he got lucky".
| labcomputer wrote:
| > Maybe he took those FI blogs seriously and dedicated
| himself to reaching that goal, and he did. And then people
| who never tried say "he got lucky".
|
| My problem with most of the advice from FI and FIRE
| blogosphere is that it essentially boils down to "be the 1%
| (where you live) and live frugally". It's not _wrong_ , per
| se, but it isn't actionable advice for 99% of the
| population[1].
|
| In particular, while _anyone_ could be MMM, not _everyone_
| can be MMM: There simply aren 't enough people who read
| financial advice blogs to support a significant population
| of such bloggers living in rural LCOL-ville. Even if there
| were, someone has to stock the shelves at Walmart. Shelf-
| stockers simply don't earn enough to retire early, unless
| shelf-stocker wages rise to a level that makes blog-FIRE
| unsustainable.
|
| It's sort of like asking why everyone doesn't buy a rental
| and become landlord. Who rents the apartment then? Or do
| all the landlords rent apartments from each other?
|
| [1] Perhaps it isn't a 99/1 split. Maybe it's 90/10. But it
| sure isn't 50/50.
| neogodless wrote:
| With advice, you have to read it, decide if it works for
| _you_ and then utilize it or discard it. You do not have
| to decide if it works for _everyone_ and discard if it
| doesn 't.
|
| There are aspects of MMM's that _anyone_ can do, but
| obviously the huge income he got _after retiring_ from
| the MMM blog is unique to him (and the few really
| successful FI bloggers) and for many, just having
| insufficient income compared to the cost of living will
| be a roadblock. In general, this post seems to be a
| rebuttal about these ideas people have about MMM -
| https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/10/05/the-fire-
| movement....
|
| I mean if you want everyone to have the same
| opportunities, you are welcome to give up the advantages
| _you_ might have so that others get better opportunities.
| Or you can look at your own life and decide what 's best
| for you.
| labcomputer wrote:
| > You do not have to decide if it works for everyone and
| discard if it doesn't.
|
| First, I am not discarding the advice. I was responding
| to the idea that successful practitioners didn't get
| lucky.
|
| Second, my assertion is that the advice is useful for
| only a small segment of the population. The goalposts
| have moved to the opposite end of the field if we are now
| talking about advice for everyone _except_ for a small
| segment of the population.
|
| > I mean if you want everyone to have the same
| opportunities, you are welcome to give up the advantages
| you might have so that others get better opportunities.
|
| Nowhere did I say that everyone should have the same
| opportunities.
|
| Finally, your link does not seem to refute my point (I've
| seen it before).
| psychiatrist24 wrote:
| "I was responding to the idea that successful
| practitioners didn't get lucky."
|
| Of course they are "lucky", but only because they took
| the risks and went in prepared. There is no 100%
| guarantee for anything, so you also need luck. The
| article here actually shows that, because the blogger was
| unlucky to have an expensive disease that made his plan
| nonviable.
| psychiatrist24 wrote:
| I'm tired of this shelf stocker narrative (or more
| general, the "some people simply have no chance
| whatsoever"). I think most people don't remain shelf
| stockers forever. In my country, it is often pupils who
| do it, or retired people who make some extra bucks. I
| don't think anybody expects shelf stocking to be their
| life long career. And even if you were to do shelf
| stocking all your life, I don't think it means you can't
| do anything about your financial situation. Same goes for
| most other low wage jobs. All the "income equality"
| charts tend to omit the age distribution, a lot of it may
| simply be older people earning more because they had more
| time to acquire skills and progress in their careers.
|
| I can perhaps agree that there is no single rule that
| everybody in the world could follow to become financially
| independent, like your "rent housing out to other people"
| example. Nevertheless, in most environments, there is
| something people can do. If you just have a house you
| yourself can live in, it also saves you a lot of money.
|
| At the very least, most people have to retire eventually.
| And many manage to do so, too. As a last resort, perhaps
| try to have children who can take care of you.
| jeremysalwen wrote:
| I think the point of FI is to lower consumption. As long
| as your total consumption matches your total production
| over your lifetime, it's sustainable. The level of
| consumption described in this post (30k/y) is at or below
| the median level of consumption, so it is certainly
| attainable for many people, even if they can't achieve it
| as quickly as the OP).
| foogazi wrote:
| > but it isn't actionable advice for 99% of the
| population
|
| Should we stop giving advice unless it's actionable for
| 100% of the world's population?
| ajkjk wrote:
| Sounded like he did, no?
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