[HN Gopher] Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
        
       Author : Tomte
       Score  : 134 points
       Date   : 2021-03-21 08:54 UTC (14 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (plato.stanford.edu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (plato.stanford.edu)
        
       | keiferski wrote:
       | Excellent resource, however do be aware that it is very analytic-
       | centric, reflecting most Anglo-American philosophy departments.
       | 
       | An example:
       | https://old.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/eqh13j/where...
       | 
       | https://philosophynow.org/issues/74/Analytic_versus_Continen...
       | 
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analytic_philosophy
       | 
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_philosophy
        
         | polytely wrote:
         | Is there a continental equivalent of SEP?
        
           | keiferski wrote:
           | Not that I am aware of, probably because most centers of
           | continental thought are in continental Europe (hence the
           | name) and so are in French or German. I don't speak those
           | languages well enough to know if an equivalent encyclopedia
           | exists, but I'd imagine a French encyclopedia of philosophy
           | probably is quite continental in flavor.
           | 
           | I have the Edinburgh Encyclopedia of Continental Philosophy
           | but it's just a book, not an online encyclopedia.
           | 
           | Otherwise, Wikipedia is actually not bad on most important
           | continental thinkers.
        
             | chrisseaton wrote:
             | That's interesting - has philosophy not settled on English
             | as a working lingua franca like other fields?
        
               | a_humean wrote:
               | In western philosophy there was a divergence in both in
               | style, lexicon, and method in the early 20th century that
               | was exasperated by the two world wars. They share common
               | ancestors (Kant basically), but to a certain extent are
               | mutually incomprehensible (an exaggeration, but not
               | exactly untrue). The philosophical world basically
               | divides into Anglophone philosophy (the dominant flavour
               | worldwide) vs everything else which cannot be neatly
               | categorized into a single brand.
               | 
               | Also, while there are non-western traditions none of them
               | have the same degree of professionalisation and size (in
               | terms of practitioners) as western philosophy. Some
               | western philosophers would question whether all that many
               | that do exist are doing the same activity - a
               | curator/historian of philosophy or culture, vs actual
               | philosophers trying to produce original work (again,
               | broad strokes and exaggeration).
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | Even the idea of "settling on English as a working lingua
               | franca" has issues that display how deep this schism
               | goes. When one of the questions you're exploring is "how
               | exactly does language shape our thinking," for example,
               | picking one language may be limiting what can be
               | expressed, and therefore, thought. Some terms
               | specifically have relationships to their meanings in the
               | language they're written in, and so even English
               | translations leave them in the original language and
               | treat them as jargon.
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | Okay, after writing this, I'm still drinking my morning
               | coffee, let's pick a specific example of this to show you
               | what I'm talking about.
               | 
               | Derrida is someone who is often criticized by folks
               | outside of the continental spheres for his writing. But
               | there's specific reasons why the writing is this way, and
               | it relates to what I'm talking about here. For example,
               | take his term "differance." This is specifically a bit of
               | wordplay in French that illuminates the concepts he's
               | talking about in a deeper way. The regular spelling in
               | French would be "difference", but there's also the verb
               | "differer", and "differance" is "difference" spelled like
               | "differer." My French is very poor (though I've always
               | wanted to learn it, just haven't found a good way to do
               | so...), but two things:
               | 
               | * One of the things Derrida is concerned with is the
               | relationship between speech and writing. That you cannot
               | hear the difference (get it?) between these two words in
               | speech, but you can when written, is interesting. Derrida
               | is responding to the phonocentrism of Ferdinand de
               | Saussure, arguing that the idea that speech and writing
               | are in binary opposition is incorrect.
               | 
               | * One of the things Derrida is interested in is how we
               | come to understand meaning. "differer" means "to defer"
               | as well as "to differ," and one of the things he talks
               | about is how words always refer to other words. You
               | cannot understand a word in vacuum, you can only
               | understand them in relation to other words, and you learn
               | them by understanding how they differ from other words.
               | The difference is deferred, in other words.
               | 
               | Anyway, the point is, you cannot really get at what he's
               | talking about without understanding at least the surface-
               | level French. It doesn't really work as well without it.
               | If Derrida had been forced to write in English, his point
               | wouldn't be as well made.
               | 
               | And, if you find the above interesting, you may like
               | continental philosophy in general. If you find it
               | insufferable... you may not. Personally, I am very into
               | it, though I'm more of a Deleuze guy than a Derrida guy.
        
               | jfengel wrote:
               | Thank you for elaborating on that.
               | 
               | I will say I don't think that wordplay is a very good way
               | to do philosophy. Of course that's a very Anglophone
               | opinion, including the notion that there is a good or bad
               | way to do philosophy.
               | 
               | But it means that I will be forever cut off from Derrida.
               | Which is fine; there is more than enough philosophy
               | produced to keep me busy. But it means that the praise
               | for him will forever baffle me, and if that bothers his
               | fans, that is not a problem for either me or for
               | philosophy as a whole.
               | 
               | And if I privately think that depending on conscious
               | wordplay means muddled thinking, I'm entitled to that.
               | It's not an opinion worth discussing since I'm not an
               | expert in his thought. But when people want me to engage
               | with his work, that private opinion is likely to come out
               | if they won't settle for s polite "no thank you".
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | Yeah, you wouldn't be alone there. I think it's the
               | opposite of muddled, it is being precise; the words are
               | chosen very carefully! They're chosen to try and convey
               | very specific meanings. And everyone does this, my own
               | choice of "wordplay" is meant to evoke meaning for
               | specific reasons to convey what I was trying to, to
               | specifically acknowledge that some folks feel the way you
               | do. Heck, the parent chose "lingua franca," which is not
               | from English, to convey the specific meaning evoked from
               | that phrase's time and space!
               | 
               | In the end, talking about talking is hard (oh no there I
               | go accidentally elevating speech above writing again),
               | but not everyone is interested in everything or every
               | methodology. We're all trying to figure it out in our own
               | ways.
        
               | jfengel wrote:
               | It's part of the reason I went into philosophy via
               | linguistics, and feel like I came out the other side. I
               | feel like philosophy has been too influenced by talking
               | about talking. It's the most accessible way to address
               | thought, but the most misleading.
               | 
               | I'm pouring more energy into the thinking that occurs
               | without talking. I hope it can capture some of the things
               | that we hope to capture with shades of meaning, but
               | without the disagreements about dictionaries.
               | 
               | Unfortunately it's leading me through some of the paths
               | trodden by behaviorists, and that's a minefield of its
               | own.
        
               | WalterGR wrote:
               | _It 's part of the reason I went into philosophy via
               | linguistics..._
               | 
               | Have you read any George Lakoff? I took a course from him
               | at Berkeley. That's the closest I've personally gotten to
               | philosophy. Just curious if you have any thoughts about
               | his approach.
        
               | spindle wrote:
               | IMO (and I am a professional philosopher), you're right,
               | it doesn't make very good philosophy ... except that
               | (unlike most fields) it's not at all clear what counts as
               | philosophy and what doesn't. I think Derrida makes very
               | good _something_ (I 'm not sure what).
        
               | dalbasal wrote:
               | >>* you cannot really get at what he's talking about
               | without understanding at least the surface-level French?*
               | 
               | Can't we? The specific example is certainly worse
               | translated, like translating a song... Can't we get at
               | the same idea using different words, wordplays, parabbles
               | and such? Is the point that you cannot have the same
               | thoughts or make the same points points in another
               | language?
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | I am saying that words are hard, and some things are more
               | easily expressed in different languages.
               | 
               | Any Turing-complete programming language can implement
               | anything from any other Turing-complete programming
               | language, but that doesn't mean that a web application is
               | just as easy to write in assembly as it is in Ruby, even
               | if you could do it. And if we said "all serious
               | programming must be done in assembly," it would make
               | discussing web applications more tedious than allowing
               | folks interested in stuff Ruby is good at to write Ruby.
               | More generically, this is the argument for DSLs.
               | 
               | And, while _theoretically possible_ to do so, practically
               | speaking, a lot less people would do it, and so we 'd
               | probably wouldn't have as advanced web applications.
        
               | dalbasal wrote:
               | If that is the intended meaning, I agree. Philosophy
               | isn't science. At least in 2021, it is rarely about
               | "solving the X problem." It's definitely worth using your
               | best language for philosophy, rather than a standard
               | language you can't use as well.
               | 
               | That said, if someone does come along with a definitive
               | solution to the other minds problem or whatnot, I'm
               | confident that the concepts will traverse language just
               | fine.
               | 
               | Any thoughts on translatable vs untranslatable concepts?
               | Does being translatable or untranslatable tell us
               | anything about the concept itself?
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | > Any thoughts
               | 
               | I mean, I can't say for sure, but if we take Derrida's
               | ideas I'm talking about in this thread as a guide, the
               | question kind of doesn't make sense. There is no such
               | thing as an "untranslatable" concept, because words don't
               | have specific meanings that come from outside of their
               | historical (and other) contingencies. You are always
               | translating, in some sense.
               | 
               | That is, it's not even clear that the unit of "x
               | language" is the right unit to consider for translating.
               | "differance" is not a standard French word, so even
               | someone who does natively speak French wouldn't
               | immediately understand it, though it might be easier for
               | them since they know things that are closer to its
               | understanding. Jargons form sub-languages. To take it
               | back to programming for a moment, the sentence "I built
               | this web application in Python" is an English sentence,
               | using only English words, that even many children could
               | understand in a grammar and vocabulary sense. But it may
               | not make any sense to them unless they understand that
               | "Python" in this context means a programming language and
               | not a snake, and even if they do understand that it's a
               | programming language, they may not understand the
               | implications of that as well as someone who is a
               | developer.
               | 
               | Like, even if we did say "sorry philosophy must be done
               | in English," if I said "oh you know how D&G said
               | 'Multiplicities are rhizomatic, and expose arborescent
               | pseudomultiplicities for what they are'? Well, I was
               | thinking about that, and..." you would still likely need
               | 'translation' for, I'm guessing, four of those eleven
               | words. It's pretty much halfway to "Les multiplicites
               | sont rhizomatiques, et denoncent les pseudomultiplicites
               | arborescentes" and is unique enough of a sentence that
               | even though I haven't read Mille Plateaux in French
               | (because again my French is basically non-existent), I
               | was able to grab the original quote pretty quickly. You'd
               | also maybe not recognize "D&G" and may need expansion on
               | that, even if grammatically you would understand it as
               | some sort of subject of the sentence that produced the
               | quote.
        
               | dalbasal wrote:
               | I guess at this point I turn into a cliche and find
               | french philosophy not that interesting.
               | 
               | It seems to me that (those damned barrel-dwelling
               | philosophers) ask all the questions backwards, as if
               | their goal is to eventually gain an adequate non-
               | understanding of something.
               | 
               | Besides ambiguity and context dependence " _I built this
               | web application using Python_ " also has a translatable
               | meaning. You might need to translate "python" to "my
               | computer" or "built" to "construit." You will have a hard
               | time without pre-existing notions of computers or web
               | applications. The sentence _is_ translatable though.
               | 
               | A lot of things don't exist if you look too closely, but
               | appear as you zoom out. There is no such thing as
               | "species" in nature. It's a classification created by
               | people. Language. Yet, it does describe _something_ that
               | nature abides by sometimes. It exists, even if it isn 't
               | discrete.
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | To each their own :) I don't find the analytic project
               | compelling, generally. Good thing there's lots of room!
               | 
               | > also has a translatable meaning
               | 
               | Yes. My point is that everything is "translatable." There
               | is nothing that cannot be translated.
               | 
               | > There is no such thing as "species" in nature. It's a
               | classification created by people.
               | 
               | Yes, this is a fantastic example, and actually pretty
               | close to my favorite French guy's heart. Maybe you've got
               | some continental in you after all. ;) (I think you're
               | arguing that a continental person would argue that
               | species don't exist, but many at least wouldn't. They
               | would exactly argue that it's a system created by people,
               | that is sometimes useful, and sometimes not.)
        
               | dalbasal wrote:
               | >> Good thing there's lots of room!
               | 
               | I think you might be misunderestimating. The terms are
               | loser leaves the internet. No quarter.
               | 
               | I didn't mean to imply either position by continentals. I
               | don't really know enough about this stuff to have such a
               | specific stereotyping. Also, as an irishman I fart in a
               | specific general direction on anglo-french disputes.
               | 
               | I picked species naively. It's just a good example of
               | "exists yet doesn't." I assumed we can all agree that it
               | exists, yet doesn't. I don't see what the problem is,
               | philosophically. Both the word species and the phenomenon
               | are approximations. That kind of "problem" is abundant.
               | Money is that. Language is that. Etc.
               | 
               | The problem can be approached from a lot of ways
               | philosophically. Geeky, information-centric
               | understandings. Classical, plato-esque idealism. None of
               | these are incompatible and I don't really see what
               | problem we're trying we're trying to solve. Some stuff
               | isn't stuff. When was this not known?
        
               | canjobear wrote:
               | That's a very analytical argument :)
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | I know my audience :)
        
               | dalbasal wrote:
               | In fairness, I did have to ask twice.
        
               | ducharmdev wrote:
               | Deleuze was always my favorite too, it's been years since
               | I read his works but I've been thinking of going back for
               | the fun of it. I had stumbled upon DeLanda who helped
               | clarify A Thousand Plateaus, but do you have any
               | recommendations for reading and understanding Deleuze?
               | Unfortunately I don't have a very extensive philosophical
               | background beyond some undergrad courses and personal
               | exploration on my own, which makes it a bit difficult
               | when parsing references to Freud, Nietzsche, etc.
        
               | Tomte wrote:
               | An example I recently stumbled upon (not philosophy, but
               | pedagogy): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bildung
               | 
               | It's a central term that you'll read very often in German
               | newspapers and see in public discourse, yet, there is no
               | satisfying English equivalent.
        
               | slibhb wrote:
               | The term "bildungsroman" is used in English. We also call
               | it "coming of age"
        
               | Tomte wrote:
               | Exactly, you're using the German word. "Coming of age" is
               | certainly not coming close to capturing the meaning of
               | Bildung.
        
               | slibhb wrote:
               | I think you're wrong. I think "coming of age" (when used
               | metaphorically) expresses part of the idea in that German
               | word and other English words and phrases express other
               | parts of it, including "education" ("In today's German
               | language, Bildung very often refers to no more than
               | 'normal' education").
               | 
               | I think the assertion (made by the previous poster) that
               | "picking one language may be limiting what can be
               | expressed" is wrong. The fact that there's no 1:1
               | translation for bildung in no way implies that the
               | meaning behind that German word is inexpressible without
               | taking it as a loanword. In fact, the article you linked
               | explicitly translates the idea into English in various
               | ways that are totally comprehensible to an English
               | speaker: "self-cultivation," "maturation," "unification
               | of selfhood and identity within the broader society," and
               | so on.
        
               | Tomte wrote:
               | Of course English speakers can talk about the concept
               | using circumlocutions or using a number of overlapping
               | concepts.
               | 
               | You can't really believe that I'd deny that!
               | 
               | But the concept Bildung is not central to Anglo-Saxon
               | pedagogy or education, that's why you don't have a real
               | word for it.
               | 
               | It is highly important to the German strain of pedagogy,
               | though. There is a real difference in the German
               | tradition and other traditions.
        
               | slibhb wrote:
               | > You can't really believe that I'd deny that!
               | 
               | You didn't explicitly deny it but the previous poster
               | raised the possibility: "picking one language may be
               | limiting what can be expressed" (this is Sapir-Whorf). I
               | thought you gave bildung as an example of something that
               | cannot be expressed in English but I may have
               | misinterpreted you.
               | 
               | > Of course English speakers can talk about the concept
               | using circumlocutions or using a number of overlapping
               | concepts.
               | 
               | I don't see any circumlocution here but that aside, you
               | seem to agree that picking one language does not limit
               | what can be expressed.
               | 
               | > But the concept Bildung is not central to Anglo-Saxon
               | pedagogy or education, that's why you don't have a real
               | word for it.
               | 
               | I understand there's no exact word:word translation.
               | Anyway, I think the concept expressed in bildung is not
               | specifically German, I think it's related to the concept
               | of education in general, specifically to the idea of an
               | education that produces an individual who is
               | simultaneously part of a collective and fully himself, an
               | integrated individual, someone who who can appear in
               | public and take part in discourse and also contemplate on
               | his own. That goes back to Plato and, I'm sure, earlier.
               | Another English word we use to express this is "civics".
        
               | keiferski wrote:
               | Different situation than in say, natural science.
               | Philosophy is much more diverse in terms of inputs and
               | outputs.
               | 
               | When your source materials are in German (Marx, Adorno,
               | Nietzsche, Hegel, Freud, Heidegger, etc.) or French
               | (Deleuze, Badiou, Foucault, etc.) you end up needing to
               | learn those languages to make any serious academic
               | progress. Philosophy is much less fungible than physics,
               | in other words. So while there are no doubt more papers
               | in English, the tradition and institutions in German and
               | French speaking countries are probably more influential.
        
           | diegocg wrote:
           | There is filosofia.org for an Spanish equivalent. The looks
           | are not the most modern in some places (it was created in
           | 1996) but it's actively updated. Managed by the Gustavo Bueno
           | foundation.
        
         | Schiphol wrote:
         | It should be said that the SEP makes a bona fide effort to
         | cover continental philosophy as well. There are entries on,
         | e.g., Heidegger (two of them, actually), Gadamer, Ricoeur,
         | Deleuze, existentialism, postmodernism, and many other key
         | thinkers and topics.
        
           | keiferski wrote:
           | It's not so much that they ignore continental philosophy, but
           | rather apply an analytic view to everything. Their articles
           | on Nietzsche and Marx are like this.
        
             | prionassembly wrote:
             | Yeah, but analytic perspectives on continental philosophy
             | are valuable (unless dismissive on petty grounds, like
             | Searle's take on Deleuze.)
        
               | keiferski wrote:
               | I didn't say they weren't valuable? Just pointing out
               | that it's a particular viewpoint and not indicative of
               | the "only" interpretation.
        
               | slibhb wrote:
               | Isn't the idea of an "encyclopedia" an analytic idea? Can
               | you really hope to "summarize" a philosophy without
               | taking an analytic approach?
        
               | dalbasal wrote:
               | Listen you anti-continentalist... :)
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | I am curious why you'd say that. As in, legitimately
               | curious, it's unclear to me why.
               | 
               | But maybe it's possible you're using the general word
               | "analytic" and not the specific way it's being used here,
               | to describe a particular tradition and approach?
        
               | slibhb wrote:
               | The idea of an encyclopedia is based on the idea that
               | paragraphs and sentences express ideas which can be
               | reduced to their logical essence and put very simply.
               | This is exactly what "continental philosophers" reject
               | and so I don't think it makes sense to summarize them in
               | this way.
               | 
               | With continental philosophy, most of the value is in how
               | it makes you, the reader, feel, and not in the ideas that
               | it expresses. This is not to say that there are no ideas
               | (of course there are) but that, when those ideas are
               | extracted and added to an entry in an encyclopedia, the
               | result is a denaturing of the work. Some continental
               | philosophy is very explicit in its hostility to being
               | expressed analytically (particularly feminist philosophy
               | like Kristeva and Irigaray).
               | 
               | Downthread you summarized what Derrida meant by
               | difference. But if that's what Derrida wanted to do
               | (transmit the idea you posted), why wouldn't he just have
               | written what you wrote? That's what _philosophers_ do.
               | Plato, Hume, Kant, etc all write as clearly as possible.
               | Derrida is explicitly rejecting this approach and
               | therefore he is as much literature as he is philosophy
               | (he was up for the Nobel in literature and is mainly
               | influential in literary studies). This also means that,
               | with Derrida, most of the point is _how_ he says things,
               | and so you should not summarize his ideas in an
               | encyclopedia entry. Summarizing Derrida would be like
               | summarizing Shakespeare, the plot is only a small part of
               | the value.
        
               | voldacar wrote:
               | > With continental philosophy, most of the value is in
               | how it makes you, the reader, feel, and not in the ideas
               | that it expresses.
               | 
               | Look, I tend to think a lot of analytic philosophy is
               | cringe, but this is basically the definition of sophistry
               | here
        
               | zozbot234 wrote:
               | > With continental philosophy, most of the value is in
               | how it makes you, the reader, feel, and not in the ideas
               | that it expresses.
               | 
               | That's a definition of mysticism, not philosophy.
               | Reformulation of earlier ideas is key to any serious
               | philosophical endevor, we can see this as far back as
               | Plato/Aristotle and the early Chinese and Indian
               | philosophers.
        
               | slibhb wrote:
               | Yes, that's my point. That part of it (the way it makes
               | you feel) is unphilosophical.
               | 
               | I called it literature, you called mysticism. I like
               | literature and mysticism though, I just don't think it's
               | philosophy.
        
               | steveklabnik wrote:
               | I see, thanks. I am not sure I agree with your
               | characterization of an encyclopedia, nor the continental
               | approach to things, but I do at least grok your argument
               | now.
               | 
               | > why wouldn't he just have written what you wrote?
               | 
               | For one, because it simply wouldn't have been as good at
               | expressing the idea, but also, I'm writing for a very
               | different audience than he was, so it's gonna come out a
               | bit differently.
               | 
               | > etc all write as clearly as possible.
               | 
               | We'll have to agree to disagree :) Also, the "as
               | possible" does a lot of work here, I would imagine that
               | many people would say they're expressing themselves "as
               | possible," and that's where a lot of the argument comes
               | in.
               | 
               | (And yes, what "clear" even means is like, one of the
               | differences between these traditions, for anyone else
               | reading this discussion.)
        
       | TomatoDash wrote:
       | SEP is the leading encyclopedia in professional philosophy. I
       | wish the site had a basic diff view e.g. a toggle to highlight
       | all new/modified words in a text since last revision.
        
         | jbaber wrote:
         | Download the archives at a politely slow rate, arrange them in
         | a git repo as revisions, and there you go.
         | 
         | I wonder if there's a tool that makes an html view of git
         | history of a document.
        
           | EllieEffingMae wrote:
           | You can actually download all their articles as a PDF with a
           | small yearly subscription. If that's not an option I've had
           | good luck with pandoc in the past.
        
         | mellosouls wrote:
         | Internet Archive to the rescue:
         | 
         | https://archive.org/web/docucomp.php
         | 
         | Example:
         | 
         | https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20191125162042/202011112130...
        
           | TomatoDash wrote:
           | I wasn't aware Wayback Machine had a comparison tool, thank
           | you. I like how its comparison picker view indicates degrees
           | of change relative to a selected snapshot, e.g. https://web.a
           | rchive.org/web/changes/https://plato.stanford.e...
           | 
           | Worth mentioning: SEP hosts static quarterly snapshots at
           | https://plato.stanford.edu/archives/ , but with no diff
           | feature.
        
       | boldslogan wrote:
       | And a cool thing, professors can get paid for the articles
       | sometimes through their research grants and studying other
       | things. High quality stuff here for students/professors/the
       | curious.
       | 
       | Favourite article currently:
       | https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/nonidentity-problem/
        
       | tgibbster wrote:
       | This was my go to reference during school (majored in
       | philosophy).
        
       | actsofthecla wrote:
       | For those interested, the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy,
       | maintained by University of Tennessee at Martin, is also a very
       | nice resource, similar to SEP.
       | 
       | Here is their entry on Gettier cases, for example.
       | 
       | https://iep.utm.edu/gettier/
        
       | paulpauper wrote:
       | This is going to become the next Wikipedia. There are so many
       | articles unrelated or tangentially related to philosophy. Major
       | mission creep. Once you get the good SEO rankings, you can turn
       | it into anything you like. Good rankings creates an incentive to
       | create more content even if the content is unrelated to the
       | original mission of the site, because who wants to pass up on
       | traffic.
        
       | dalbasal wrote:
       | FYI, this is often easier to read and better generally than
       | wikipedia for a lot of articles.
       | 
       | If you want to know more about a hairy or highly contested
       | subject, this is a great starting point. Content, in philosophy,
       | is usually best got from the source. Frame though... I think you
       | need an outside frame.
       | 
       | It's very hard to understand Marx, Rand, Popper, Kant or whatnot
       | without a frame. First (eg Kant), a lot of philosophical work is
       | overly complicated, so it's much easier approach once you have an
       | approximate idea of where it's going. Second, a lot of modern
       | philosophy is happens within an argument. Marx was writing in
       | counter to Ricardo, political liberals and communists. Ayn Rand
       | was writing a response to Trotsky, Kant and other rivals. It's
       | hard to jump into the argument midway.
       | 
       | That's where SEC shines. It gets you started. It gives you an
       | understanding of how philosophies are structured, as well as the
       | basic teams and rivalries dynamics that you need for context.
       | Form there, it's much easier to approach philosophy.
        
         | hilbert42 wrote:
         | _" FYI, this is often easier to read and better generally than
         | wikipedia for a lot of articles."_
         | 
         | I reckon you are correct, but as I mentioned some weeks back in
         | a reply to a question about what books would I recommend for a
         | beginner in philosophy, SEP was one of my references in that it
         | is an excellent resource but my recommendation came with a
         | caveat which was that there is a huge amount of detail that's
         | likely to overwhelm all but the most hardened.
         | 
         | I refer regularly to SEP and when it's just a quick reference I
         | often find myself getting bogged down in detail. There's
         | nothing wrong with that so long as the student knows how to
         | extract just what's needed, the trouble is at times that can be
         | difficult (as there's essentially no delineation between the
         | key points and details).
         | 
         | Ideally we'd also have a precised, much shortened students'
         | version.
        
         | machawinka wrote:
         | Having been educated 'continentally', I am surprised that Rand
         | is taken seriously as a filosopher.
        
           | hilbert42 wrote:
           | That's an understandable view. I think you'll find that Rand
           | is taken much more seriously as a philosopher in the US than
           | in other Anglophone countries such as the UK, Australia, New
           | Zealand etc. (it seems to me that these countries have a more
           | nuanced view about her that's not that dissimilar to the
           | Continental one).
           | 
           | It's understandable that Rand holds greater sway and
           | influence in the US given her libertarian right views and
           | support for free markets, etc. (which hold high rank there
           | among the conservative right).
           | 
           | Rand seems to have had two peaks of popularity, in the 1950s
           | after _Atlas Shrugged_ was published and again at the height
           | of the Reagan-Thatcher years of the 1980s. That was also the
           | time when the Austrian school--Hayek, Von Mises, and Chicago
           | School--Friedman were in high favor with those politicians.
           | 
           | It will be interesting to see how Rand's popularity holds up
           | into the much longer future.
        
       | dr_dshiv wrote:
       | Wikipedia does great on philosophy, but you can't cite it. SEP is
       | great as a secondary resource if you want to make sure you have a
       | "handle" on a concept or author.
        
         | mjburgess wrote:
         | I find wikipedia articles extremely poor on philosophy.
         | 
         | SEP is without a doubt the primary resource.
        
           | igravious wrote:
           | Wikidata (Wikipedia's younger structured data semantic web
           | resource) has entries for _13,000+_ philosophers -- an order
           | of magnitude more than the largest and most complete
           | encyclopedia of philosophy which by my reckoning is not the
           | SEP (as people seem to think here) but Macmillan 's
           | Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopedia_of_Philosophy
           | 
           | Give that the "Print Edition is $1693 as of May 2017" the SEP
           | is slightly cheaper.
           | 
           | How did they achieve that enormous amount? Through the
           | collaborative magic of the Wikipedia model.
        
           | crazygringo wrote:
           | Wikipedia is utterly _fantastic_ for discovering _about_
           | philosophy -- for getting the lay of the land of the
           | different strands, concepts and philosophers. There 's
           | literally no better, unbiased, objective introduction than:
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy
           | 
           | (For comparison, every intro-to-philosophy book or textbook
           | I've ever come across has omitted huge swathes of what's in
           | Wikipedia's intro article -- not just not going into depth on
           | them, but not even mentioning them once. But because
           | Wikipedia is collaboratively edited, those kinds of lacunae
           | are much less likely to exist.)
           | 
           | Once you've identified the relevant topic/debate you're
           | interested in and want to actually see what the "current"
           | (within the past decade) state of debate is, _then_ you reach
           | for the SEP for an overview on a very specific subject.
           | 
           |  _Then_ you look up the relevant references using Google
           | Scholar and explore using  "cited by" and "related" to survey
           | the entire literature related to it.
           | 
           | This model has worked very successfully for me. None of the
           | three levels -- Wikipedia, SEP, Scholar -- is any better or
           | worse than the others. They serve different purposes. Each is
           | the best at its level.
        
           | dr_dshiv wrote:
           | Which articles do you find extremely poor?
           | 
           | I love reading about classical philosophy on wikipedia, it's
           | like reading with article-size foot notes.
        
       | a_humean wrote:
       | Genuinely the best online resource for academic philosophy.
       | Primers on pretty much every sub discipline that might be of
       | interest to any western philosopher written and edited by subject
       | matter experts on the topic. All free, and with excellent support
       | for things like BibTeX and other things useful for academic work.
       | 
       | Another similarly useful resource is philpapers:
       | https://philpapers.org/
        
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