[HN Gopher] Demoscene accepted as UNESCO cultural heritage in Ge...
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       Demoscene accepted as UNESCO cultural heritage in Germany
        
       Author : quakeguy
       Score  : 796 points
       Date   : 2021-03-20 12:19 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (demoscene-the-art-of-coding.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (demoscene-the-art-of-coding.net)
        
       | spoonjim wrote:
       | The UNESCO listing is a pretty big tent so this feels right. It's
       | not a Taj Mahal or Sydney Opera House but only a few things are.
        
         | tgguhg wrote:
         | It's not a vague "UNESCO listing" in the same category as or
         | competing with built heritage. It's specifically being recorded
         | as _intangible_ heritage, which is a category that covers a lot
         | of interesting traditions, many fairly humble, such as craft
         | techniques.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNESCO_Intangible_Cultural_Her...
        
       | varispeed wrote:
       | Beautiful times. I especially loved swapping - that is you got a
       | list of people and their addresses from a magazine and you saved
       | on disks your favourite demos and zines (preferable those nobody
       | else had) and then you added some random stuff for example label
       | off your favourite drink, wrote some poems, maybe added a dried
       | flower and so on and then you also added postage stamps. Then you
       | were hoping that whoever received it on the other side liked it
       | and he or she would have sent you something else. Sometimes you
       | would just just pass on the disks you received and just added
       | your name to a txt file or some funny looking directory. There
       | was also a trick to put a glue over your stamps and it was the
       | custom that the person would send you those stamps back so you
       | could then dissolve the postage stamp and reuse them :-) The
       | internet somewhat killed this unfortunately. Decades later I
       | still remember the feeling of a postman holding packages in his
       | hands from various places in the world and the excitement, what
       | am I going to find? I miss that.
        
         | zepesm wrote:
         | stamps back!
        
         | IgorPartola wrote:
         | You might enjoy Reddit's secret Santa thing. It's not demoscene
         | oriented of course but the idea of sending and receiving random
         | cheap gifts is neat. Plus a number of celebrities participate
         | and when was the last time you participated in a gift exchange
         | along with Ian McKellen?
        
           | morsch wrote:
           | Presumably the risk of receiving a bag of poop is suitably
           | low?
        
             | Grimm1 wrote:
             | I participated this year and I wound up with a full book
             | trilogy in a genre I really like and I wound up buying
             | someone a relatively new video game for their current
             | console. It was a very pleasant experience and I will now
             | likely participate further.
             | 
             | I think they've done it for 8 years now to good success.
        
             | Semaphor wrote:
             | It's been some time since I took part, but besides one time
             | (got a very simplistic board game for children) I got
             | something cool and fitting every time. I actually still
             | have the motivational sloth poster "live slow, die
             | whenever" hanging in my office :)
        
             | IgorPartola wrote:
             | The much bigger risk seems to be that you don't get
             | anything. But they have strict rules and if you don't send
             | your gift you can never do it again.
        
             | yellowapple wrote:
             | Thankfully. Seems like the bigger risk is of the Secret
             | Santa not actually sending anything; I'm hesitant to do it
             | because I know I'll be that asshole who spaces out and
             | forgets about it.
        
         | KingOfCoders wrote:
         | In Germany we had pink PLK cards, which you got without an ID
         | and where you could sent packages to (I held on to mine for a
         | very long time).
         | 
         | One day the police was waiting in front of the post office and
         | got a friend of mine.
        
           | weinzierl wrote:
           | Grew up in West Germany when the Demoscene was at it's
           | height, but never heard of "pink PLK cards". Could you give a
           | hint what that is?
           | 
           | EDIT: Found it "Postlagerkarte"[1], I have heard that term
           | before, but never was aware what it was. It feels strange
           | that at a time you could do things easily, legally and
           | anonymously, all at the same time. As a minor, at that. Let
           | alone anonymously _sending things to strangers_. Admittedly I
           | miss that world more than the Demoscene.
           | 
           | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postlagerkarte
        
             | ludwigschubert wrote:
             | Take a look, first-name-fellow! :D
             | https://gotpapers.scene.org/?p=849
        
               | weinzierl wrote:
               | Thanks, excellent article - no questions left. _Gunter
               | von Gravenreuth_ also rings a bell, haven 't read that
               | name in a long time.
        
           | bonzini wrote:
           | This has to be one of the most cryptic comments I have ever
           | read! :D
           | 
           | What is a PLK card, and what did your friend do?!?
        
             | ludwigschubert wrote:
             | EDIT: I shouldn't have run to Wikipedia; much better
             | explanation at scene.org (go figure):
             | https://gotpapers.scene.org/?p=849
             | 
             | --
             | 
             | PLK = "PostLagerKarte", literally "mail storage card". It
             | was (abolished 1991) a way to receive letters anonymously;
             | like a P.O. box without your name attached to it. The
             | [Wikipedia
             | page](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postlagerkarte) even
             | explicitly mentions its "illegal usage in the computing
             | scene", so GP was likely referring to his friend using
             | their P.O. box for (illegally) cracked software.
             | 
             | Here's a shot at translating that Wikipedia paragraph:
             | 
             | > Until their abolition, PLK cards were especially popular
             | in the cracker scene because, compared to a regular P.O.
             | box, no personal data had to be shared with the respective
             | post office. PLKs were primarily used for anonymous sending
             | and receiving of pirated software on floppy disks.
             | [citation needed imho] The PLK addresses themselves were
             | often listed digitally in the cracktros.
        
             | detaro wrote:
             | pretty much a temporary "PO box" you could get anonymously.
             | You bought a card with a code from your post office, and
             | then people could send stuff to the post office addressed
             | to that number, and the card holder could pick them up.
             | Relatively popular with the cracker/warez szene.
        
         | Bolderman wrote:
         | Oh man, the stamp trick was so cool!
         | 
         | I had a PO box where all the packages were sent to. I still can
         | remember how excited I was, riding my bike (I was 15) to the
         | postal office and open that treasure chest full of foreign
         | packages. I'm from The Netherlands and did a lot of swapping
         | with people from Belgium, Germany, Norway, Sweden and Finland.
         | Yes, real good times with a lot of friendly people.
        
           | ludwigschubert wrote:
           | It's funny how there are regional differences in how to avoid
           | the postage fees. I remember friends switching sender and
           | recipient on the letter and then not using any stamps
           | instead. (Not that I ever tried that myself.) I had never
           | heard of the glue trick. :D
        
           | exlurker wrote:
           | Oh, how I envied those PO Boxes you guys got down in Europe -
           | Up north, it was practically impossible to get one of those
           | for non-businesses, and especially a no-go for broke
           | teenagers!
        
       | jan_Inkepa wrote:
       | I worry about anything heritage-/tourism-related being deeply
       | conservative and possibly resulting in things getting fixed down
       | or watered down, or otherwise ceasing to evolve/getting tied up
       | with national/international bureaucratic apparatuses. But the
       | people involved seem to be happy from what little I've seen (as
       | an outsider), so it's probably ok here?
        
         | DocTomoe wrote:
         | In that line of argument, we should destroy historic monuments
         | and art museums, because they hold back art, and any building
         | older than 30 years, because they hold back modern
         | architecture.
         | 
         | Preserving something good does not mean not accepting new
         | developments. And sometimes, especially with architecture,
         | "something good" can be an ensemble of stuff - e.g. you don't
         | put a modernist glass/steel building on the town square of a
         | picturesque medieval town.
        
           | jan_Inkepa wrote:
           | That's a fair point, though I think you're intensifying and
           | extrapolating my feelings too far :P
           | 
           | For some cultural/creative practices that are dear to me, I'd
           | be ok with seeing them die out than become
           | bureaucratised/preserved/reified. On the other hand, I love
           | classical music, which could scarcely be less
           | institutionalised and sclerotic, and I value historical,
           | ethnographical and scholarly work about culture. I have all
           | these slightly-conflicting feelings at once.
        
             | the_af wrote:
             | I'd rather they were preserved. I was never part of the
             | demo scene (wrong continent, wrong age) but I feel amazed
             | by it. I'm also interested in early home computers and
             | early computers in general, and so I wish them to be
             | available in some form I can touch, for example museums.
             | 
             | It's tragic how much stuff related to computers, their
             | history and their software we've lost already.
        
         | skrebbel wrote:
         | I'd wager the demoscene is pretty conservative to begin with.
         | All the comporules and jargon derive from the Warez/cracker
         | scene in the late eighties and haven't really changed much
         | since - only the capabilities of the hardware has.
         | 
         | Eg: an "intro" means a demo made against a size limit. It's
         | called an intro because cracked games were spread with little
         | introductory animations (sine-scrollers, chiptunes, you know
         | the drill) by the cracking groups. These couldn't take too much
         | space lest the game got too big to easily distribute. Then,
         | people started making intros without having a game to
         | distribute them with, and the rest is history.
         | 
         | But that's >30 years ago now and we still use the same term and
         | the same size limits (4k, 64k) as back then.
        
       | xallarap wrote:
       | foreach x in UNESCO/cultural_heritage cancelculture(x)
       | 
       | Or does this mean that it's exempt?
        
       | gsmo wrote:
       | I believe this may have been the grandaddy of demos in Europe:
       | 
       | Sodan & Magician 42 - TechTech - Amiga Demo
       | https://youtu.be/mB5CujcTN8A
        
       | SeeManDo wrote:
       | Farbrausch!
        
         | quakeguy wrote:
         | Blinkenlights!
        
       | KingOfCoders wrote:
       | Sadly all my CPC/Amiga demos are lost to time.
        
         | Doctor_Fegg wrote:
         | What was your CPC pseudonym?
        
         | unixhero wrote:
         | If they were submitted to demo parties or shared in another
         | fashion, the demoscene has it at pouet.net or demozoo.net or
         | scene.org
        
       | acd wrote:
       | I love computer demos! Is there any good page / book / videos on
       | how to make effects such as sinus scrollers, vector graphics and
       | effects?
        
         | dominicjj wrote:
         | For old school effects there's a pretty good page here with
         | full source:
         | 
         | http://demo-effects.sourceforge.net/
        
       | adamnemecek wrote:
       | I always wondered why demo scene was so culturally impactful in
       | Europe but not in the US. I wonder if it's due to the fact that
       | Amiga was a lot more popular in Europe than US.
        
         | mjul wrote:
         | The Amiga was definitely a big factor.
         | 
         | For one it was a "cathedral", not a "bazaar" in the sense that
         | it had more or less the same hardware on all models.
         | 
         | The hardware was nicely balanced: small enough that you could
         | learn it all, yet complex enough to keep tweaking and pushing
         | its limits for a long time.
         | 
         | It also had a long life, so you could get really good at it.
         | People were using their 500s from the 80s well into the 90es.
         | 
         | Contrast with his to PCs where there was a plethora of
         | different hardware components for CPU models, graphics and
         | sound - a "bazaar".
         | 
         | At the early stages the standardised Amiga was just much easier
         | for the devs.
         | 
         | Later the PCs became so powerful that the energy moved there
         | anyway - but I still remember the shock of the terribly messy
         | instruction set on the PCs after switching from the nice and
         | clean 68k.
         | 
         | For me personally that was when I stopped. It was simply not
         | joyful to work with.
        
           | chihuahua wrote:
           | That's funny, I had the same reaction to the difference
           | between the 68k and 80286 instruction sets. I enjoyed writing
           | 68k assembly on an Amiga 1000. Then (around 1990) I got a 286
           | PC and looked at an assembly language book in a bookstore. I
           | put the book back on the shelf and thought "this is horrible,
           | I don't want to deal with this mess".
           | 
           | I thought it was just me.
        
             | vidarh wrote:
             | Similar story here. I actively opted for M68k assembly over
             | higher level languages on more than one occasion. Then I
             | switched to Linux on a PC, took one look at x86 assembly
             | and didn't touch assembly again for many years.
        
           | vidarh wrote:
           | The demo scene was big on 8-bit machines "long" (by 1980's
           | home-computing time scales) before the Amiga became a big
           | factor.
        
         | krrrh wrote:
         | Some cultural evolution is quite random and idiosyncratic. The
         | US had a way big photocopied zine subculture in the 90s, and
         | reading these comments I can see a lot of similar patterns of
         | young people mailing and sharing their creations amd
         | expressions. Sometimes a few influential individuals or events
         | can really kick off a wave of cultural innovation, but I also
         | think that the spread of Kinkos in the US during the 90s and
         | them hiring a lot of low-wage kids who would scam copies for
         | their friends and siblings laid the groundwork for zines in the
         | way that Amiga's market efforts in Europe did for the
         | demoscene.
        
         | varispeed wrote:
         | My view is that mainly because of so many different countries
         | in Europe it was much more interesting to see what someone
         | across the border could do and it was kind of a healthy
         | competition and interestingly it was never based on
         | nationalism, but on simple human difference of perspectives. It
         | was a pure art, expression not motivated by money but from the
         | will to create and impress. To push computers of the time to
         | their limits, create something thought to be impossible. I wish
         | these principles were applied in modern software development.
         | For example why do we need few GHz CPU and GBs of RAM to run a
         | text editor?
        
         | herodoturtle wrote:
         | There was quite a strong underground demoscene in South Africa
         | - and Amiga was relatively popular (Amiga 500 if I recall). So
         | perhaps you're right?
         | 
         | I certainly miss those days!
        
         | _the_inflator wrote:
         | After almost 40 years I came to the realization, that Europe
         | hacked everything away (C64, I as someone from Beastie Boys can
         | confirm), while in the United States they had developers that
         | tried to figure out from the beginning how to commercialize
         | their work, thus shareware etc. was born. Doom for example
         | would have never earned a dime in Germany. Also VisiCalc etc.
         | Professional software had a tough time especially in Europe.
         | 
         | My point of view. So hacking was and stayed your main option in
         | Europe during the 80th, 90th.
        
           | toolslive wrote:
           | Yes! I made some of those demos in the 80s as a teenager, not
           | even realizing there was any value in coding. I was going to
           | be a metal god or a mechatronics engineer, which ever came
           | first.
        
         | mjul wrote:
         | Another important aspect was the social networks of the time.
         | 
         | We had computer clubs in many cities. Clubs had their zines.
         | These were focal points for meeting other would-be sceners.
         | 
         | The demo scene was organised in groups with members spread
         | around the country, so we would go to some of the many "copy
         | parties" in the weekends to meet and show off coding skills or
         | music or puzzle over reverse engineering games.
         | 
         | The dense European geography and good public transport was a
         | big factor, too. Without a car and not old enough for a
         | license, I remember taking the bus to Viborg to hang out with
         | people from their big computer club for the weekends, some of
         | whom had published games commercially. This was a great
         | inspiration, too.
        
         | DocTomoe wrote:
         | I would also argue that in the US, startup funding and
         | entrepreneurship is a lot more available to people considered
         | to be "inexperienced in business" by traditional banks, leading
         | to creative energy in Europe instead flowing into more artistic
         | endeavours.
         | 
         | Also, note how the vast majority of demoscene groups were in
         | Scandinavia, places with long winters.
        
         | jng wrote:
         | US culture is way more inclined towards business than European
         | culture. American tech-enthusiasts were thinking about how to
         | make money. Some European enthusiasts were, too, but not at all
         | as singled-mindedly as US ones, no wonder the US owns the tech
         | industry today. Games were a big driver for everyone on both
         | sides, so both sides got a significant piece of the pie there
         | (Asia was way too far back then, and arguably ahead of either).
         | 
         | I started learning to program in 1985, was part of a somewhat
         | relevant demo group, attended The Assembly '94 in Helsinki,
         | helped organize some enocounters in my country, etc...
        
           | eeZah7Ux wrote:
           | Unsurprisingly Free/Libre Software developers tend to be
           | based in Europe (as percentage over population of
           | developers).
        
         | fireattack wrote:
         | As someone not from Europe (nor the US), this is literally the
         | first time I've heard demoscene.
         | 
         | After reading Wikipedia article I'm still a little bit
         | confused. Could someone do a ELI5?
        
           | HoverSausage wrote:
           | It's a way programmers have to show off, have fun or be
           | artistic. You write a programme but you restrict yourself in
           | some way such as creating it for a 1980s era computer or by
           | file size say the entire thing has to fit inside 4KB or some
           | other extreme limit, and then you try to do things using
           | visuals and/or music that you initially wouldn't think are
           | possible.
        
           | dagmx wrote:
           | It's a challenge to see who can get the most impressive
           | visuals in a specified size of memory or other restrictions.
           | 
           | It dates back to when early games and software were pirated
           | by teams. Each team would try and leave their intro video in
           | the game as their signature, trying to one up each other.
           | 
           | Then it just turned into it's own form of competitive
           | Development.
           | 
           | Basically you get some incredibly small amount of memory, and
           | it's about trying to be as clever as possible to get the
           | coolest visuals in there.
           | 
           | Many prominent graphics engineers were involved. Some of them
           | even worked at studios like Pixar, making things like the
           | vegetation systems on Brave.
        
           | kroltan wrote:
           | The simplest explanation is that it's people making programs
           | for the sake of it, not for any practical purpose.
           | 
           | And such people (as people do) tend to coagulate into a
           | community around that interest, sharing results and
           | techniques and overall socializing!
           | 
           | I'm from Brazil and wasn't even born yet at the time, but if
           | you want to easily see a bit of what demos were, one of their
           | "modern equivalents", so to speak, would be Shadertoy [1].
           | There are also videos of old demos, and I'm sure there are
           | archives of the programs, but I haven't searched for them
           | either.
        
       | BurningFrog wrote:
       | Why would anyone care what UNESCO bureaucrats proclaim is
       | cultural heritage?
        
       | ahiknsr wrote:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY5Vrc5G0lk -> Debris, winner of
       | the demo competition at Breakpoint 2007 in Bingen, Germany.
        
         | SirYandi wrote:
         | I've still got this on one of my old hard drives, it's
         | something like 150kb if I recall. Really quite amazing.
        
         | 8bitsrule wrote:
         | Damn!
        
       | skrebbel wrote:
       | I'm a (retired? infinitely procrastinating?) demoscener and to be
       | frank I've never understood this effort. What does it help anyone
       | that some bureacrats somewhere put the demoscene on the same list
       | as folk dances, saunas, and "the Gastronomic meal of the French"?
       | 
       | I mean sure, it's impressive that they pulled it off - I wouldn't
       | expect whoever decides these things to understand much about
       | computer art subcultures, but I don't know what the benefit is,
       | to anyone.
       | 
       | EDIT: I just realized that _of course_ the answer is, like
       | anything demosceners do,  "because we can". What was I thinking?
        
         | agumonkey wrote:
         | you're in null demo mode, waiting for v-sync to trigger
        
         | varispeed wrote:
         | If something becomes a thing in bureaucrats world then it also
         | means it opens a door for receiving funding. Then your family
         | member or friend create a foundation or something and then
         | apply for those funds. Maybe they ran out of things and figured
         | out there was something called demoscene. They don't do it out
         | of good will. At least not in my opinion based on experience.
        
           | feralimal wrote:
           | And funding is the stealing of money (taxes) from
           | individuals, being re-allocated to things bureaucrats like to
           | foster. Hurrah!
        
             | lallysingh wrote:
             | There's a good chance the funding will come from charities.
             | Most likely ones funded by people who made money in
             | computers.
        
               | feralimal wrote:
               | Nah! They're too busy using their charities to fund the
               | guardian, NYT and WHO.
        
             | piva00 wrote:
             | Because the market is perfect and will foster the most
             | beautiful arts efficiently, right?
             | 
             | There is some requirement for coordination in a societal
             | level, taking taxes to fund what bureaucrats like to foster
             | is imperfect but so far looks like the better alternative
             | than just letting private and profit-driven interests drive
             | what's culture or not.
             | 
             | What's your alternative?
        
               | dleslie wrote:
               | Some of the best and most innovative art I've seen was
               | developed wholly by public funding.
               | 
               | I can't imagine how it is in the USA, where art lives and
               | dies by how marketable it is.
               | 
               | It occurs to me that the (newer) experimental art I have
               | seen from America was developed by wealthy people with
               | loads of free time; the era of wandering jazz and blues
               | musicians having long since passed.
        
               | kortilla wrote:
               | > the era of wandering jazz and blues musicians having
               | long since passed.
               | 
               | That era wasn't government funded either. What's your
               | point?
        
             | chmod775 wrote:
             | I never understood how people can have views this
             | simplistic.
             | 
             | I understand when views lack _some_ nuance, but this is
             | absolutely puzzling to me.
        
               | kortilla wrote:
               | After you watch your taxes used to fuel wars and murder
               | and there is no way to opt out or meaningfully vote for
               | anything different, this is a completely rational view to
               | take.
               | 
               | Just because the theft is by a group elected by a
               | majority doesn't make it not theft.
               | 
               | You can wax on as much as you want about the importance
               | of government revenue, safety nets, and defense, but it
               | doesn't fundamentally change the fact that the source is
               | currently money taken by force from the people.
        
         | halcy wrote:
         | It presumably helps somewhat if you want to find sponsors, or
         | locations to hold parties, if you can point at an official list
         | on which you are and say "look! this is a real thing! important
         | people think this is worth doing!"
         | 
         | Other than that, well, there really isn't a downside, so yeah,
         | why not.
        
         | bloodorange wrote:
         | It also serves to offer some protection against future attempts
         | to outlaw it.
         | 
         | Given how much of general purpose computation we lose every
         | year to walled-gardens/prisons, I think it might help a wee bit
         | now and then.
        
         | DocTomoe wrote:
         | Well, for starters, now funds can be allocated to preserve
         | software and hardware that are necessary to keep experiencing
         | the demoscene. Demoscene releases will be archived and - likely
         | - added to secure vaults.
         | 
         | 50, 100 or 500 years from now, the ones coming after us now
         | have a better chance to experience Equinox, or Fairlight, or
         | Melon Dezin the same way we today experience Brugel, or Durer,
         | or Cezanne. School classes will analyze the hacks necessary for
         | a parallax scroller, and be eternally bored of it. And some
         | enthusiasts will copy the techniques.
         | 
         | It's not a bad thing, especially given the demoscene is bot
         | extremely creative and absolutely nonexistant on today's art
         | market, so will likely have disappeared with the demosceners in
         | 20-50 years.
        
           | ekianjo wrote:
           | > School classes will analyze the hacks necessary for a
           | parallax scroller,
           | 
           | Highly doubtful claim.
        
           | lallysingh wrote:
           | Also, it pushes for some preservation of the execution
           | environments of these programs. It's now more likely that
           | someone will make sure that there's a runnable version of
           | qemu (or similar) that emulates well enough to run them.
        
           | zem wrote:
           | I think the analogy an earlier poster made with folk dances
           | was more accurate. school classes might mention it in passing
           | as a subculture, and people who want to know will have
           | resources to explore it further.
        
           | KingOfCoders wrote:
           | TRSI!
        
           | hutzlibu wrote:
           | " School classes will analyze the hacks necessary for a
           | parallax scroller, and be eternally bored of it."
           | 
           | I hope not. Forcing anyone into it, kills the spirit of it,
           | they were supposed to find. But that would be nothing new
           | with classical school, so ..
        
           | skrebbel wrote:
           | > Funds
           | 
           | My understanding is that there's no free money attached to
           | being on a UNESCO list.
        
             | DocTomoe wrote:
             | Not directly - but grants now can be argued with "this is
             | actually UNESCO relevant". For an organization like the ZKM
             | in Karlsruhe (a modern technology/art museum, which I would
             | consider a major interest in this development), secondary,
             | well-argued grants by local authorities and fonds are a
             | major source of income.
        
         | bstar77 wrote:
         | Maybe exposure? I wasn't involved in the scene creatively, but
         | I did experience it in all its glory in the early 90's. I was
         | blown away by the creativity and it was the highlight of
         | running my BBS. Your negativity is kind of disappointing, you
         | don't have to be so punk about it. We're all old now.
        
           | skrebbel wrote:
           | Why the personal attack?
        
             | bstar77 wrote:
             | It wasn't meant to be personal. I guess the tone I was
             | looking for was lost so I apologize if that's how it got
             | conveyed.
             | 
             | Like I said earlier, I was into that scene in the early
             | 90's and it was very much a cool kids club, we were doing
             | amazing work (I was really proud of my BBS and all of the
             | ANSI art I slaved over). This was always an underground
             | elite scene that really only mattered to us.
             | 
             | Anyway, I was just trying to say that everyone that
             | contributed to the scene should be proud and not diminish
             | the great art that was created. My "punk" (as in punk rock
             | fan) comment was that you should not diminish or under
             | value the artistic contribution of the scene now that's
             | it's being recognized by a more mainstream crowd.
        
             | ddingus wrote:
             | The comment spoke to behavior, not the person.
             | 
             | This is often conflated into a personal attack, and it
             | should not be.
             | 
             | What we do is not who we are, just saying.
        
               | tim44 wrote:
               | Ahh yes, the old I didn't call you a b#tch, I said you
               | are acting like a b#tch ;)
        
         | lawnchair_larry wrote:
         | History is worth preserving. When future generations examine
         | what kind of art we made, we want them to discover demoscene
         | art as part of that. It is a huge disservice to both the
         | creators as well as the students by omitting it from the
         | historical record.
        
         | blondin wrote:
         | this is so the scene could be remembered.
         | 
         | be it unesco, internet archive, the big museums, whatever
         | works. as we are losing more and more control over the hardware
         | and software that we buy, the scene and anything similar will
         | ultimately disappear.
        
           | gcb0 wrote:
           | demoscene reason d'etre is antithetical to museums. But i
           | think this is very fitting for a time when, as you say, "we
           | are losing more and more control over the hardware and
           | software that we buy"
           | 
           | This may be a huge ego trip or pure gatekeeping, but I never
           | wrote anything that I expected people to run, look at the
           | pretty pixels, and be done.
           | 
           | You cannot be truly impressed if you don't know the effort to
           | put that art into a tiny file or abuse the hardware in ways
           | never seen before. If you never fired a debugger or other
           | development/reverse engineering tool, then you missed most it
           | had to offer. And IMHO you never connected to the artist in
           | any way.
        
             | hrydgard wrote:
             | If pouet.net isn't a huge museum, then what is it?
        
               | skrebbel wrote:
               | A cesspool of trolls? :-)
               | 
               | (not saying it isn't _also_ a huge museum btw)
        
       | ddingus wrote:
       | Great! I love the scene. The art, and fun learning. Technical
       | acumen coupled with art can speak to tech in a liberating and
       | empowering way.
       | 
       | And new tricks on old hardware. I always muse over what current
       | gear could really do.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | tuukkah wrote:
       | The bit of international significance: "As the previous decision
       | in Finland helped convince the experts in Germany, today's
       | decision is a huge tailwind for the ongoing applications in other
       | countries like France, Switzerland, and Poland. And the more
       | countries will have listed the Demoscene, the more likely an
       | international joint application for the Demoscene to be
       | recognized as humanity's cultural heritage becomes."
        
       | AndrewOMartin wrote:
       | If they intend to maintain an archive of all the demos ever
       | created then I will volunteer one of my old 128Mb USB drives to
       | mirror it.
        
         | skrebbel wrote:
         | That will fit approximately 1 modern demo, give or take.
        
         | kaoD wrote:
         | Demos are still made nowadays. http://www.pouet.net/ lists
         | 84845 prods in archive (although that includes tools, engines,
         | etc.)
         | 
         | If you want to mirror, https://files.scene.org/faq/ says its
         | archive is about 2TB, or about 15625 of your old 128MB USB
         | disks :P The archive from 1990 demoparties is already 5GB!
         | 
         | I know your comment was probably tongue-in-cheek, I just wanted
         | to share the actual numbers.
        
       | Blikkentrekker wrote:
       | > _Today on the suggestion of the national Unesco expert
       | committee, the Standing Conference of the Ministers of Education
       | and Cultural Affairs decided to accept the Demoscene as German
       | intangible cultural heritage. The decision acknowledges the long
       | and living tradition the Demoscene has in Germany, with Revision,
       | Breakpoint, and Evoke among other demoparties shaping the
       | landscape of major international gatherings of the demoscene for
       | decades._
       | 
       | Ah yes, the experts who arbitrary decide such matters based on
       | politics and tourist revenue estimations.
       | 
       | So has Currywurst been a part of German culture for decades, but
       | apparently it is not included, perhaps because it's fastfood. --
       | our overlords move in mysterious ways.
        
       | Damogran6 wrote:
       | Having experienced the Amiga and PC demoscenes when they were
       | happening, this is one of those statements that comes as a
       | surprise, but then, after a little consideration, makes perfect
       | sense.
       | 
       | It is celebrating a cultural movement during a moment in time.
        
       | drux wrote:
       | Second Reality by Future Crew
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTjnt_WSJu8 ( It is considered to
       | be one of the best demos created during the early 1990s on the
       | PC)
        
         | magicalhippo wrote:
         | That one blew me away. Another one I remember fondly is Dope by
         | Complex[1], from 1995.
         | 
         | My computer at the time could barely play the the soundtrack
         | itself in the tracker, it had so many active channels. The demo
         | itself was a slideshow. Fortunately my friend had a 486/DX4
         | 100MHz, so I got to watch it there.
         | 
         | To put this in perspective, there's no graphical acceleration
         | involved here at all, everything pixel to be done on the CPU.
         | And the microcontroller in the coffee maker at work is about as
         | fast[2] as my friends 486[3].
         | 
         | [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtXxM0pezAs
         | 
         | [2]: https://blog.stratifylabs.co/device/2019-05-20-Dhrystone-
         | Ben...
         | 
         | [3]:
         | http://www.netlib.org/performance/html/dhrystone.data.col0.h...
        
         | someguyorother wrote:
         | And once you've finished that, go to Real Reality:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1f6UE27KTo Second Reality
         | without a computer :)
        
         | logbiscuitswave wrote:
         | I had a 386/40DX that could run Second Reality, and I was blown
         | away. When I upgraded to a 486/66DX2 the first thing I did was
         | run Second Reality, and I was shocked at how much of the demo
         | content I had missed before from parts being truncated.
         | 
         | Also it's worth noting that a lot of Second Reality's source
         | code got released to GitHub several years back:
         | https://github.com/mtuomi/SecondReality and here's an
         | incredibly deep dive into the code:
         | https://fabiensanglard.net/second_reality/
         | 
         | Finally, here's some rare footage of the creation of the
         | legendary demo: https://youtu.be/LIIBRr31DIU (English subtitles
         | available)
        
       | digikata wrote:
       | This brings back memories of visiting the Computer game museum in
       | Berlin. It's a small museum dedicated to early computer games and
       | also has preserved a number of early demos. Worth a visit if you
       | ever find yourself with a couple hours of free time there. Oh
       | they also have a working giant Atari and NES controller.
       | 
       | https://www.computerspielemuseum.de
       | 
       | https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g187323-d20352...
        
       | makach wrote:
       | This is wonderful! It was a huge part of me when growing up, and
       | I still bond with others when we discover our common past.
        
       | machawinka wrote:
       | An NFT opportunity for the scammers out there?
        
       | msk-lywenn wrote:
       | This comment section is missing something absolutely essential.
       | Let's fix that right now:
       | 
       | AMIGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
        
       | ttoinou wrote:
       | This news comes right at the moment I am rendering demoscenes 4kb
       | intro in 8K60 quality on YouTube :)
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2bE1opaaJ0&list=PLbRiR5PpVy...
        
         | fersarr wrote:
         | pretty cool!
        
       | jexe wrote:
       | Really excited to see this. Being part of the scene was
       | absolutely fundamental to finding passion in tech and
       | understanding how creative the process is at the core.
        
       | royjacobs wrote:
       | I've enjoyed my time in the C64 and later the PC demoscene and
       | I'm amazed it's still going pretty strong. Perhaps not on the
       | level it was at during what was arguably its peak in the mid-90s,
       | but still.
       | 
       | It has certainly shaped a fairly large group of people currently
       | working in our industry, even if they were only tangentially
       | aware of the scene (perhaps with cracked games as a gateway drug,
       | as it was in my case).
       | 
       | Kudos for getting this organized.
        
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       (page generated 2021-03-20 23:00 UTC)