[HN Gopher] Skylab: The Myth of the Mutiny in Space
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Skylab: The Myth of the Mutiny in Space
Author : vijayr02
Score : 137 points
Date : 2021-03-20 07:48 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bbc.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bbc.co.uk)
| mongol wrote:
| It is linked from the article but I think the audio interview is
| a more interesting link, so here it goes:
|
| https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3cszmsv
| tamaharbor wrote:
| So apparently the mainstream media has not changed much since.
| h2odragon wrote:
| > Amazingly, he says, in the last 48 years only one other
| reporter has been in touch with the Skylab 4 crew apart from the
| BBC, to ask them for their account of what happened.
|
| _sigh_
| ajarmst wrote:
| I've always disliked the tendency to describe this otherwise
| amusing anecdote as a 'strike' or 'mutiny.' By definition, the
| captain of a ship---or commander of a mission---can't 'mutiny.'
| They may be held responsible for their actions, court martialed,
| grounded, etc. but decisions made by the commander during the
| mission, whatever they are^1, are legitimate. That the mission
| commander aboard the ship would function as a military commander
| was established very early in NASA's history---going back to
| Mercury, where the commander was also the crew. Carr decided or
| agreed that his crew needed a break, and he had been very
| carefully selected to be the person who had the authority to make
| that decision. (^1 There is a modern exception to this rule in
| the case of illegal orders and war crimes, but that somewhat
| fraught question doesn't apply here.)
| JdeBP wrote:
| You might enjoy the previous discussion at
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18776068 .
| valuearb wrote:
| This story seems to have changed over time. It's been separately
| reported that the crew was so fed up they took the day off
| without permission, and that was the only thing that jolted
| mission control into agreeing to backing off the micromanagement.
|
| Also supposedly Jerry Carr was sidelined by NASA as punishment
| for leading the "mutiny" and never given an opportunity to fly
| the Shuttle.
|
| NASA PR, as always, has their own spin on it.
|
| https://www.nasa.gov/feature/the-real-story-of-the-skylab-4-...
| [deleted]
| vijayr02 wrote:
| Personally I found this bit very interesting:
|
| > The narrative really took on a life of its own when a New
| Yorker article in 1976 referred to "a sort of sit-down strike one
| day about half-way through the mission".
|
| > From there the Harvard Business School built a case study on
| the perils of micromanagement called Strike in Space, which
| sourced the New Yorker article.
|
| Reminded me of the Gell-Mann amnesia effect [0] but at a societal
| level. I wonder how much of our received wisdom is post facto
| rationalisation and speculative explanation.
|
| Recent events in the world have reminded me of a mediaeval letter
| from father to son - the gist of it is that the son would be
| shocked if he knew how poorly the high and the mighty were at
| taking good decisions - it is only from a distance that power
| appears to be well exercised.
|
| I can't find the specific reference, but would be very grateful
| if someone from the HN family could chime in :)
|
| [0]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton#GellMannAmnes...
| juhanima wrote:
| Perhaps this one?
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Oxenstierna#Quotation
|
| Axel Oxenstjarna was the Lord High Chancellor of Sweden during
| king Gustavus Adolphus II, who fought in the 30-year war. Not
| exactly medieval, but fits the description otherwise.
| rudolfwinestock wrote:
| "An nescis, fili mi, quantilla prudentia mundus regatur?"
|
| "Do you not know, my son, with how little prudence the world
| is ruled?"
|
| Scandinavian nobility still used Latin commonly in those
| days.
| vijayr02 wrote:
| This is the one! Thanks
| juhanima wrote:
| While Gustavus was a brave soldier, he was known to be a bit
| foolhardy. Besided getting himself killed in the battle of
| Lutzen 1632, the story of the Vasa ship may have been what
| Oxenstjarna had in mind. Against the advice of his engineers,
| the king ordered his new flagship to be loaded with so many
| guns that she capsized and sunk outside of the Stockholm
| harbour on her maiden voyage only having sailed a short
| while.
| ljlolel wrote:
| Funny, is that the one they made the museum out of?
| juhanima wrote:
| Yes, definitely worth checking out. The ship was
| preserved very well in the oxygen-depleted waters of the
| Baltic and is almost in a pristine condition.
|
| This is very off-topic, but I cannot resist mentioning
| that when the ship was recovered from the bottom of the
| sea in 1961, one of the first things discovered from it
| was a miniature statue of Finnish olympic winner Paavo
| Nurmi. One of the best pranks by the student association
| of the Helsinki University of Technology. https://www.red
| dit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/62jm2z/til_i...
| ljlolel wrote:
| Also look up how "Stockholm Syndrome" was made up
|
| More swedish examples coincidental
| dingaling wrote:
| Referencing the alleged Gell-Mann effect is a self-referential
| example of itself in action. Why would you nod your head and
| say "oh that sounds authoritive and authentic" when it was an
| concept invented by a sci-fi author unilatetally using the
| surname of a friend for more gravitas? There were no studies or
| published papers about the effect, he literally invented it on
| his own initiative.
|
| If I read an inaccurate article in a paper and then turn the
| page I don't suddenly 'forget' their lack of accuracy and read
| the next article uncritically, and I don't know anyone who
| does.
| webreac wrote:
| I love it. I will add to my list of favorite quotes. I am also
| interested by a full reference. thanx
| vijayr02 wrote:
| Thanks :) I think a more earthy way to express it is:
| politics is like a sausage factory; if you knew how the
| sausages were made, you wouldn't eat them!
| KineticLensman wrote:
| Which IIRC was said by Bismarck, the chancellor of Prussia
| genocidicbunny wrote:
| Wikiquote actually seems to indicate that this is mis-
| attributed to him [0] and that it was said by John
| Godfrey Saxe first.
|
| [0] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck
| garmaine wrote:
| ...which is a perfect example of the effect in question.
| cesis wrote:
| Are you thinking of Machiavelli?
| vijayr02 wrote:
| I don't think so.
|
| I have a hazy memory that I actuallyb learnt the reference on
| HN - maybe I'm wrong but the woolly context I have is of a
| respected prime minister approaching the end of a long
| career, coaching his son and successor.
|
| Unlike Machiavelli, who if I remember correctly actually had
| a very poor relationship with the ruling family after a brief
| period of success.
| sys_64738 wrote:
| Great piece, this is. The inverse relationship between
| productivity and micromanagent is one that every one should
| discuss with their boss.
| mabbo wrote:
| > "Our mission proved that micromanagement does not work, except
| where a situation like lift-off or re-entry demands it," says Ed.
| "Fortunately, that hard lesson got passed on for future space
| flights and crews."
|
| I can think of a few people I've worked for who never learned
| this.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| It is hard to balance: providing vision and direction but also
| autonomy amd room for growth.
|
| As a manager, I get nervous: did I give my direct too much
| free-space and he/she did stuff that wasn't necessary? Will
| they resent me from wasting their time? Will they hate their
| job if they don't develop meaningful skills?
|
| Each member of my team has GREAT capabilities. I want what's
| best for them. I sometimes get so EXCITED about what they are
| doing or capable of doing - I forgwt to stop "sticking my nose"
| in their work.
| waheoo wrote:
| Different personalities require different management styles.
|
| Personally I love having a manager that takes care of all my
| priority setting and frequently chases me for status updates.
| I struggle with those things, them doing this helps me focus
| on what I'm good at.
|
| Other personalities do not respond well to this lack of
| space.
|
| Neither of what I. Describing is micromanagement but I hate
| when people trope that they give their reports as much space
| as possible. That's a good way to waste my potential.
| sfg wrote:
| Ask.
| freethedata wrote:
| The fate of For All Mankind's Skylab project was a fun twist, and
| possibly one of the least realistic. Yes, it has some things in
| common with what it became in their timeline, but would they have
| done that? No way.
| YeGoblynQueenne wrote:
| Image legend:
|
| >>Nasa staff at mission control discussing a problem with Skylab
|
| Including a gentleman who appears to be a rehabilitated space
| pirate. How cool.
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