[HN Gopher] Show HN: LitiHolo - a desktop 3D hologram printer th...
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Show HN: LitiHolo - a desktop 3D hologram printer that makes true
holograms
Author : hologram-paul
Score : 136 points
Date : 2021-03-18 15:33 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.litiholo.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.litiholo.com)
| tmikaeld wrote:
| Wow, it's a long time since I saw a site without SSL.
|
| Probably want to add that, not only for avoiding the red key at
| the top but for performance reasons.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Roger that! Will get on that, and thanks for the heads up.
| captainmuon wrote:
| Pretty neat. This seems like it actually exposes holograms the
| "hard" way, like you would do in a traditional setup (with lasers
| and beam splitters). A shortcut would be too directly print the
| very fine pattern that is on the holographic plate - basically a
| fourier transform of the image you want to encode. When I was in
| university we did a student's project on computer generated
| holograms and tried that - with a special ultra high dpi slide
| printer it didn't work, but strangely with a regular laser
| printer. The resolution was too coarse and the scale of the
| hologram was off, but it was really cool - if you reflect laser
| light from the plate, it looked as if the object was really
| there.
|
| I the appendix we speculated that it might be possible to clevery
| use GPUs ("3d accelerators" back then ;-)) to do the calculation
| in realtime and show it on a very high DPI screen. Some time I'd
| really like to revisit the project with today's technology.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Actually, recording the laser light is easier currently than
| trying to compute out the full fringe pattern and print. In
| essence the light and interference pattern captured are doing
| real time Fourier computation at the speed of light.
|
| 3D computational advances certainly have helped, and we expect
| even more as our hologram printers get more advanced with time.
| Thanks.
| spyder wrote:
| Recent research on improving the hologram computation with deep
| learning:
|
| https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/computing/software/realt...
| hologram-paul wrote:
| I saw the article (it got a lot of attention talking about
| holograms), but I didn't see any actual holograms. I hope
| they get a 3D Hologram Printer so that they can actually
| output their computations.
|
| And go MIT!
| phkahler wrote:
| I've been wondering if you could compute the interference
| pattern and then compute the view from any specific angle -
| possibly on a GPU. A sort of 2d way to save a 3d model.
|
| Also wondering how feasible it is to "reproject" a hologram
| from one plane to another - rendering multiple "objects" into
| one hologram/interference pattern.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| This is definitely possible and is the basis for some
| computational holography.
|
| And a holographic interference pattern is definitely a way to
| store a 3D image in a 2D plane, and I think a part of what
| won the Nobel prize in physics when holography was invented.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| And also the subject of the ideas like the holographic
| universe.
| handol wrote:
| This is a fascinating project. How do you actually generate a
| hogel? Are you positioning a reference surface? An SLM?
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Yes, SLM. We use an LCD which is then focused to the hogel
| aperture with the object beam, where it meets the reference
| beam at the film to record the hologram for that hogel.
| larinzod wrote:
| Cool idea. But I'm not seeing a practical application outside of
| the "hey this is cool!" factor.
| tmikaeld wrote:
| There's nothing wrong with vanity items, like any picture on
| the wall.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| I definitely want holograms of my kids! (part of why I wanted
| to build this all along)
| hologram-paul wrote:
| I have often used the comparison to early personal computers.
| The things were mainly switched and lights, but there was
| potential for where it could go.
|
| I heard that even early Apple people would say "A computer in
| every household", and people would ask, "What would I do with a
| computer?" and their best answer was "It's a great way to store
| and file your recipes."
| Grustaf wrote:
| I love holograms, always found it extremely fascinating, but
| this is not really an argument. Anything _could_ sort of
| become the next personal computer, the question is why you
| think specifically holograms are useful?
| hologram-paul wrote:
| I feel like anywhere you see a flat 2D image could be a 3D
| hologram eventually. And holograms give the "whole
| message", so more information, better information, clearer
| information. That's the potential. So portraits, some day
| hologram cameras, CAD output, advertising, and yes
| eventually hologram television/displays.
|
| But we are starting with something more simple, and not
| trying to promise everything to everyone. That does mean
| looking for initial use cases that will take off early.
| Grustaf wrote:
| I certainly hope you're right, I want to see holographic
| displays replace lcd for one thing, even though I'm a bit
| skeptical.
|
| 3d tv flopped, it could have been a start of something,
| terrible as it was. Lightfield cameras didn't take off
| either, maybe because of the price. Let's hope this could
| be a beginning!
| hologram-paul wrote:
| That's the idea! Hologram technology has a lot of
| untapped potential, and is still in early stages of
| growth.
| zokier wrote:
| Hi, cool release! Now that the printer is out, are you
| considering bringing back the "analog" film kits that were
| demonstrated e.g. by The Thought Emporium here:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTB2ryoWIFU
| hologram-paul wrote:
| That is a possibility!
|
| We liked the hologram kits, but we needed something to take us
| to the next level with our hologram technology, and the 3D
| Hologram Printer is that step for us.
|
| The hologram film continues to be available, and will be the
| same film we use for the printer.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Hello again HN! 12 months ago I told you LitiHolo (I'm the
| founder) was working to create a 3D Hologram Printer, and asked
| for your input. Well, we built it!
|
| I've been involved with hologram printers all the way back to my
| grad school days (MIT Media Lab), and have built custom
| industrial versions for in-house commercial hologram work. But
| more recently LitiHolo has been focused on simple educational
| holograms kits. With this 3D Hologram Printer, we are kind of
| bringing the two together -- a simple hologram printer that makes
| the technology more affordable and accessible.
|
| These are true laser-recorded holograms, and we are starting
| small and simple to get things off the ground (think Makerbot for
| holograms). Would love your feedback on how we can continue to
| make hologram technology like this more accessible, as well as
| ideas for possible killer apps and use cases.
|
| Here's our previous HN post from 12 months ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22616010
|
| And full disclosure: we have launched a Kickstarter project for
| this, but would appreciate your input whether you back the
| project or not.
| yummypaint wrote:
| I remember once seeing a hologram of a microscope where if you
| put your eye in the right spot you could see the item under
| magnification. Would something like that be possible with this
| system? Another thing that comes to mind is pairing this with
| some kind of computational holographic camera or something
| using those awesome new imaging TOF range sensors. Being able
| to make semi-instant holographic polaroids would probably
| capture people's imaginations.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| The microscope hologram is a cool one! Could definitely do
| something like that with our 3D Hologram Printer.
|
| One of the other very memorable holograms out there is the
| Kiss, which is also possible (see our Kiss demo hologram).
|
| I think holographic cameras would certainly be something that
| would be in the future for us. Glad to see you are already
| looking there!
| toast0 wrote:
| I know I don't have the patience/dexterity/not knocking the
| table over to use the hologram kits, and the printer is not in
| my budget, but I would love to see some of the finished
| (developed?) holograms. You might consider selling some of
| those?
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Good idea! And I'm also expecting that some of the people who
| do get the 3D Hologram Printer will be selling holograms of
| their 3D holograms as art, portraits, etc.
| ACAVJW4H wrote:
| Good luck on your kickstarter. Hope you guys achieve your goals
| and ship this amazing tech!
|
| I tried searching for the term "hogel size" I assume it is
| somewhat equivalent to resolution. Can you expand on it and
| tell us what are the limiting factors around resolution and how
| it can be improved in the future?
|
| I am now curious how commercial sticker size holograms are
| printed.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Thanks! The hogel size is physically determined by things
| like the aperture size (in our case 1x1mm to start, with a
| stretch goal for 0.5x0.5mm), but also laser power, and just
| how long it takes to print each hogel and as a result the
| full hologram. Double the resolution is 4X the number of
| hogels.
| detritus wrote:
| Two suggestions for your site:
|
| * Knock off the first 30 seconds of your 'interior shots' video
| where the machine is presumably registering itself. I don't
| much care about that :)
|
| * Show the resultant printed film from the side on somewhere,
| so we can see how thin it is. From first glance, I got the
| impression the output was quite thick, whereas apparently it's
| only 16 microns (taken from your spec sheet). It might seem
| obvious to you, but it wasn't here and I think would be much
| more impressive.
|
| Neat tech, I've forwarded it to someone who might have use for
| it.
|
| Good luck!
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Thanks! The film plates are on 2mm thick glass, and the
| actual holographic recording layer is 16 microns, with a
| coversheet material over that.
| detritus wrote:
| Can the layers be side-illuminated? If so, could these be
| layered, with some compensation for angle employed to
| account for depth, allowing you do fake RGB?
|
| ed - eg. each 16 micron sheet is side-illuminated with a
| specific colour, and then three or more holographic sheets
| are embedded in between the glass plate and cover?
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Our LitiHolo hologram film is full-color sensitive, and
| the finished holograms are transparent, so layer is
| possible.
|
| We've started with a printer that is single-color
| initially to get this off the ground, but eventually we
| would like to have a full-color version of the printer in
| the future with RGB recording directly in one layer.
| ALittleLight wrote:
| I agree with the feedback of having a picture better
| capture the thickness of the holograph plate (or whole
| assembly, whatever that's called). From the Buzz Lightyear
| picture I got the impression that it would be something
| like a thick picture frame, but that doesn't match the 2mm
| description.
|
| Would it be possible to use these as badge photos? I feel
| like it would be pretty cool to have a hologram picture on
| your badge.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| The glass film plates keep the film stabilized for the
| hologram exposures, but it is possible to peel the film
| off after recording the holograms.
|
| Will work on seeing if we can get better imagery of the
| hologram thickness.
| flir wrote:
| This is a transmission hologram, not a reflection hologram,
| right?
| hologram-paul wrote:
| These are reflection holograms.
|
| Also sometimes called white-light holograms because they can
| be viewed with a regular spot light, sunlight, or even a
| smartphone flashlight.
| [deleted]
| tinus_hn wrote:
| Would be nice if this would become available as a reasonably
| priced service for a one off print
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Definitely might be part of where things could go! And I'm sure
| there will be people who get one of the 3D Hologram Printers
| for doing just that. Holograms-as-a-Service?
| ben_w wrote:
| I certainly expect to use HaaS if such a service became
| available and affordable. One thing I've fantasised about for
| 15 years is a wall-scale full colour hologram of some
| environments -- forests, lunar surface, a city skyline, or
| perhaps a different one for each wall.
|
| Of course, I'll have to play with the small ones first, to
| get a feel for what the tech can and cannot do...
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Haas! I like it.
|
| Tiling of the holograms (making smaller holograms that can
| be tiled to make a larger one) is something we've
| definitely thought about, and even contemplated for a
| Kickstarter stretch goal. Wall size holograms would be fun!
| dTal wrote:
| Worth noting that this exists already, here and there; you can
| get full color, full parallax digital holograms from, at the
| very least, Geola [0] - though "reasonably priced" is a matter
| of opinion! Making it economical is pretty difficult - the
| issue is that "mastering" is an inherently time-consuming
| process; you're writing each hogel one at a time, each hogel is
| only a square millimeter or smaller, and you're printing at a
| few dozen hertz max. So each piece inherently eats up a lot of
| time on the machine, like 3d printing. Then factor in that the
| plates are boutique, and that rendering all that data is many
| hours of computer time, and you're possibly looking at least 3
| figures for a single A4 plate. That's a tough sell for the
| consumer market, when the lighting requirements are so
| stringent (they can only be lit by a single point source, from
| a strictly defined angle, with no extraneous light sources).
|
| Source: I used to work for a startup that provided this
| service. We ran out of money.
|
| [0] https://geola.com/
| hologram-paul wrote:
| We think bringing the technology to a level where you have
| the hologram printer and can work directly with it will be
| key in helping holograms go beyond where they have struggled
| before.
|
| Similar to 3D printing, putting one in your workshop is
| different than just knowing that there is a workshop out
| there that will make one for you.
| jcims wrote:
| Are there any 'industrial' applications for the printed
| holograms? I'm thinking of these as a type of metamaterial and
| wondering if this provides some type of novel filtering and/or
| polarizing capability that doesn't exist today. Also given how
| this is constructed it seems like it might be possible to create
| holographic geometries that aren't possible with the traditional
| method of creating them.
| Const-me wrote:
| It depends on resolution of the printer and other specs, but
| potentially, this might help with R&D in areas like this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photonic_metamaterial
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Definitely could be part of R&D for novel holographic optical
| elements for VR and AR headsets, and even solar cells and how
| they more efficiently use light to create electricity.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| One of the big industrial applications is for Holographic
| Optical Elements (HOE). Holograms can direct light like a
| mirrors, color filters, or act as several optical lenses
| combined into one thin holographic version.
| berniemadoff69 wrote:
| not to be a raincloud, but isn't Disney basically the most
| intellectual-property-protective company on the planet? seems
| like using Buzz Lightyear in this demo is asking for trouble.
| zuhayeer wrote:
| This reminds me of the moving pictures on newspapers in Harry
| Potter
| hologram-paul wrote:
| And famous wizard cards! Now maybe you can make your own.
| lokl wrote:
| Very interesting, but the 1 mm hogel size is a bit disappointing.
| Do you think you can improve this? How much?
| hologram-paul wrote:
| We currently have a 0.5x0.5mm resolution as a Kickstarter
| stretch goal.
|
| Where things like lenticulars do have fundamental limits
| concerning depth vs resolution based on diffraction limits,
| holograms do not have similar constraints.
|
| Ultimately, there is no reason these holograms can't reach
| resolutions similar to print (and better). Following the 3D
| printing market examples, we chose to start simple and then
| build on that as we progress in the future.
| lokl wrote:
| Thanks for answering. I'm going to follow your progress and
| wish you success.
| KlinkEastwood wrote:
| The part of me that is still a kid in the 90s that thought DBZ
| shirts were the epitome of style is thinking this is the coolest
| thing I've ever seen.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Holograms have a way of doing that to people! Thanks.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Maybe this is the wrong definition but I read "true hologram" to
| mean a 3D image made of light, this looks more like one of those
| images that used to be on the cover of Guinness World Records.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| The Nintendo 3DS seems like it's in this vein too-- a
| lenticular display coupled to gyros and eye-tracking.
|
| Does these holograms work for more than one viewer at once?
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Where the 3DS is lenticular, these are real laser-formed
| holograms, and can be seen by multiple viewers without any
| headset or other gear. Right now view zone is 45 degrees.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| Huh, very cool-- is it totally passive then, once
| "printed"? It seems like you're encoding into each pixel
| what it would have to be for every possible view angle, and
| I'm having trouble getting my head around how this works.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Hogels record the intensity and direction of the light
| (giving the ability to "look around" the hologram
| object).
|
| Yes, this hogel information is permanently exposed onto
| the hologram film.
| mekkkkkk wrote:
| So, the holograms are made of "pixels" that look
| different from different angles? If so, how much
| crosstalk is it, and how many discrete angles are we
| talking? Very cool!
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Currently a 45 degree view zone with 23 separate view
| zone images, so about every 2 degrees. Very little
| crosstalk.
| DivisionSol wrote:
| I'm on the verge of contributing to the Kickstarter, trying to
| get a sense of what I'm seeing:
|
| 1) http://www.litiholo.com/images/buzz-on-the-printer-
| crop-809x... Wondering what the artifacting is on the left side
| of the hologram itself? Is this a problem with this specific
| hologram, or will all holograms have this artifacting?
|
| 2) Same image, but I'm not quite sure Buzz is centered in the
| middle of the ... work plate? Glass? Others are a bit more
| aligned to the edges, but are instead offset in various
| directions. For aesthetics, what would prevent a hologram from
| being perfectly centered and rotated to the plate?
|
| 3) They all have a little stray hologram pixel in the top right
| corner of each hologram, intentional? Fixable? Shortcoming of the
| technique?
|
| 4) A lot of the plates look a little smudged/finger-printy. Is it
| possible to clean the hologram plates/film after "printing" to
| have a clean shiny surface?
|
| 5) I don't see an example of an image that has been printed
| corner-to-corner? How much of this hologram film has been
| applied? Is it possible to make a full plate hologram? And/or
| trim the edges afterwards? (It looks like glass plates, so...
| probably hard for a layperson to cut?)
|
| 6) Open source firmware? Gcode? Toolchain? Hacker friendly?
| (Ctrl-f Firm, Open, or Code resulted in 0 results.)
|
| Just to end in a compliment sandwich, it's totally cool and would
| definitely have a place in budding maker's labs, and new niche
| stores! I could see the output being relatively popular on
| like... Etsy. Super affordable at $1,600 when stacked next to a
| 3D Printer, or Laser Cutter, etc. I love the idea and DO want one
| of my own... But trying to identify the shortcomings.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| The artifact you are seeing is a test alignment hogel on these
| early holograms. Do not expect that in the final system.
| Likewise, the demo holograms had different border areas, and
| some with fingerprints (definitely cleanable). The film plate
| will need some border area. Still working on where we will be
| with ease of hackability.
|
| Thanks for the compliments! Hope to see you as a backer and
| please recommend to the maker spaces you know.
| duckfang wrote:
| Will it "require" the cloud or you otherwise retain remote
| control over it, like Cricut or Glowforge?
|
| If so, that is a complete dealbreaker for me. I'd assume that
| is also the case for others as well.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Maybe this is the wrong definition but I read "true hologram" to
| mean a 3D image made of light, this looks more like one of those
| images that used to be on the cover of Guinness World Records.
|
| Edit: I see OP is the founder and this is a smaller project.
| Looks really cool and sorry if that sounded negative! Just not
| what I expected from the title.
| filmor wrote:
| "3d image made of light" is decidedly not what a real hologram
| is. Have a look at the Wikipedia page, real holograms are so
| much cooler!
| hologram-paul wrote:
| I could not have said it better. Real holograms also still
| have a lot of development yet to come and improvements that
| can be made, whereas many other 3D techniques out there are
| limited quite significantly, or are quite old and don't have
| the head room to improve much.
| hanniabu wrote:
| Yeah I imagine true holograms as dynamic as well, not just a
| static image.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| The different perspective images can encode a certain amount
| of movement, like the one of the girl blowing a kiss.
|
| We see this as the building blocks for eventual holograms
| with full-motion. There has been a lot of research and ideas
| in that area, but still needs development.
| vorpalhex wrote:
| I believe you are thinking about a light field display if you
| want the Star Wars esque living 3d projections of light.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| I guess holograms could be considered a sub-set of light
| field displays, but not all light field displays are
| holograms.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Each hogel is actually a real laser-encoded holograms. So
| trying to make the distinction between lenticulars, Pepper's
| Ghost, etc. that use the name "hologram", but are not.
|
| This hogel approach to recording the hologram in segments
| allows of capturing people, computer graphics, and much more
| than analog holograms that can only capture inanimate object.
| However our LitiHolo film can do analog holograms as well, if
| interested.
| anfractuosity wrote:
| Very cool! While looking for more information on creating
| holograms I found this video -
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTB2ryoWIFU (from The Thought
| Emporium) on making holograms using the LitiHolo film, which
| looks really fun too, especially the RGB hologram.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Yes, this is the same film we use for the printers as well. It
| is full-color sensitive, so you can see where this could go for
| the printers after we get the initial concept off the ground.
| btbuildem wrote:
| OK, so it's not a true hologram -- you cannot rotate it in
| multiple different ways to see what's on the other side, how does
| it look from the bottom, etc.
|
| It's a sequence of frames encoded by viewing angles respective to
| the print surface. This printer lets you make your own lenticular
| cards, except they're smooth in texture.
|
| EDIT: thanks for expanding my understanding of what holograms are
| :)
| hologram-paul wrote:
| No, these are true-laser recorded holograms, capturing the
| interference pattern of the laser light. The current printer
| uses horizontal parallax only, but we do have full-parallax as
| a stretch goal for the Kickstarter.
| BugsJustFindMe wrote:
| > _OK, so it 's not a true hologram_
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hologram disagrees. This appears
| to be using real laser holography.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Amen!
| BeniBoy wrote:
| What I think is missing from the demo is that we can only see
| "lateral" movement, which is the reason why many people here
| think this looks like a lenticular display. If that is a real
| hologram you should be able to change your viewpoint vertically
| as well right ?
|
| Super cool anyway !
| bluesign wrote:
| I was curious on that too, but from animation there seems to
| vertical effect, just horizontal
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Full-parallax is currently a stretch goal for our
| Kickstarter.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Yes, we currently have full-parallax as a stretch goal, so it
| is definitely in the works and one of the things that lets
| holograms go beyond just lenticular. Thanks!
| Ellipsis753 wrote:
| Tangentially related, but does anyone have a trick to Google
| search for holograms without getting pages of lenticular/pepper's
| ghost items instead?
|
| I'd like to buy a couple of pre-made holograms just to get a feel
| for them, but can't find anywhere selling them?
| yummypaint wrote:
| Im very impressed with the quality given the seeming lack of
| vibration mitigation. The only hologram I ever made involved
| working on a basement floor for stability and having to hold my
| breath and remain motionless during the exposure.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Thanks! Yes, because these are true laser-recorded holograms
| the fringe pattern is quite high frequency. But the design of
| the 3D Hologram Printer greatly minimizes the issues and you
| don't need separate vibration isolation equipment.
| nightowl_games wrote:
| Cool product.
|
| Offtopic: They say "MIT Media Lab" and for me it just triggers
| thoughts of Epstein and Aaron Schwartz. It's become a stain in
| the collective unconscious, much in a similar vein to many
| people's negative viewpoint of law enforcement. The lesson of our
| times is this: police your in-group before society does, because
| society will come down far harder.
| hologram-paul wrote:
| I was there before any of that and was working under Steve
| Benton, who was kind of a demi-God in holography (inventor of
| the rainbow hologram on credit cards today). It was a special
| place because of the kind of work we were doing, and I hope
| that memory survives.
| kiddico wrote:
| This looks incredibly cool.
|
| Just make sure you don't pull a stunt like Cricut recently has
| and piss off your entire userbase ;P
| hologram-paul wrote:
| Duly noted!
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(page generated 2021-03-18 23:00 UTC)