[HN Gopher] Dogs orient and move in synchrony with family members
___________________________________________________________________
Dogs orient and move in synchrony with family members
Author : pseudolus
Score : 125 points
Date : 2021-03-17 11:12 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| lalabert wrote:
| Cats don't!
| nicwolff wrote:
| From the last paragraph of the article:
|
| > _She and her colleagues also are interested in studying the
| bonding and interwoven movements of people and other types of
| pets, particularly cats. "We've done a little work with cats
| and, so far, they blow everything out of the water in terms of
| being socially responsive to their owners' behavior," she
| says._
| nicklecompte wrote:
| "Humans orient and move in synchrony with their cat owners"
|
| (I certainly do! The cats run the show here.)
| astrange wrote:
| Don't they? I think the problem is we don't know how to read
| them and every cat has a different language because they don't
| learn it from each other.
|
| https://www.gwern.net/Cat-Sense
| whalesalad wrote:
| Depends on the cat. Ever met a dog-cat?
| aaron695 wrote:
| I'd like to hope they address the issues of the fake news
| research around "Google Earth shows that cow and deer herds align
| like compass needles" and "Do Dogs Have Their Own Poop Compass"
|
| I see the difference between the controversial ideas around
| magnetoreception in many mammals and what I'd see as un-
| controversial, animals have some level of herding with humans and
| it will be different with children for various reasons.
|
| But clearly people are misusing the difficulty of measuring
| alignments on animals to get exciting research.
|
| Can't see the paper online for free -
| https://doi.org/10.1007/s10071-020-01454-4
| dreen wrote:
| Cows dont tend to align NS? This isn't new and I never heard of
| this being debunked
| dmurray wrote:
| Everything in the study can be completely explained with a
| mechanism no more powerful than "dogs tend to follow their
| owners". Plus a little bit of quantifying whether they are more
| loyal at following adult owners/shelter workers/children.
|
| "Move in synchrony" is a very clickbaity way to suggest that
| there's something magical or insufficiently understood here
| (like magnetoreception). That seems to be editorializing from
| the NYT, rather than the authors of the study.
| staticman2 wrote:
| Synchrony is the term from the scientific study: your beef
| isn't with the NYT on that term.
| yostrovs wrote:
| Why have the New York Times when you can read the study
| yourself with all the scientific jargon included? I thought
| their purpose in covering science is to make it easier to
| understand for a layman. What is synchrony? Do you think an
| average person actually knows? I'm educated in the sciences
| and I'm not sure of what it really means.
| npsimons wrote:
| Anyone else think of "A Fire Upon the Deep" by Vinge?
| echelon wrote:
| What's a paywall technique that works now? I tried googling the
| article title, but that failed.
| jamesgreenleaf wrote:
| https://archive.is/8THWO
| ct0 wrote:
| Paying
| dsnr wrote:
| Sure, let me get my credit card real quick to pay for the
| article about how dogs move in synchrony with their family
| members. I'm sure most of the readers here have subscriptions
| for nytimes and 100+ other publications.
| ct0 wrote:
| They asked for a paywall technique that works. Paying
| always works.
| anoncow wrote:
| Nytimes and a few other subscriptions, yes.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Sounds like you're not interested enough to pay for it,
| which is fine. You're not _required_ to read it, you 're
| not _entitled_ to read it, and you _can_ move on from FOMO.
|
| It's fine to miss out. It's fine to not read content. It's
| fine to not want to pay for a publication if you're fine
| with not accessing it.
| dsnr wrote:
| > It's fine to miss out
|
| Oh, I thought I was required to read this specific
| article. You saved me a yearly subscription, I was about
| to click on ,,buy with your second newborn" when I read
| your comment. Thanks!
| jdavis703 wrote:
| The New York Times is arguably the nations newspaper of
| record (more Californians subscribe to the NYTimes than New
| Yorkers). I'd expect lots of people who value being well
| read to have subscriptions.
| oh_sigh wrote:
| The NYTimes has 7 million subscribers per the NYTimes:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/05/business/media/nyt-
| earnin...
|
| A safe bet is to assume that someone doesn't have a
| NYTimes subscription, no matter how much they value being
| well read.
| aksss wrote:
| A lot of well-read people don't give money to the NYT out
| of principle.
| dsnr wrote:
| > more Californians subscribe to the NYTimes than New
| Yorkers
|
| This is saying more about the political affinities of
| both Californians and NY Times than about the quality of
| the newspaper.
| strathmeyer wrote:
| Well judging on the comments the people who pay are morons.
| Want to discuss this e mail I received with a lot of
| misspellings?"
| [deleted]
| poundofshrimp wrote:
| In most cases, they already serve the entire content to the
| browser and just put a paywall overlay on top. It's usually
| trivial to remove the overlay in a desktop browser by
| inspecting the source. You may also need to enable scrolling
| with css if it was disabled.
| macksd wrote:
| If it's an article about research, you can always find the
| original paper or at least the abstract:
| https://thehumananimalbond.com/publication-media/. I usually
| find the news articles about them don't have much more value
| than letting me know a new study exists, and in fact they often
| misunderstand the research and overstate the conclusion.
| kjehg87 wrote:
| https://twitter.com/paulg/status/710513549349552128?lang=en
|
| On a secondary note, if you are on firefox, before the page
| loads you can click on "reader mode" works on most sites.
| _Microft wrote:
| If that fails you can even type _about:reader?url=_ into the
| adress bar yourself and append the URL of the page you want
| to load in reader mode.
| jonmc12 wrote:
| PBS NOVA's "Dog Tales" (2020) is a good watch and explains this
| behavior. https://www.pbs.org/video/dog-tales-vskr2y/
|
| They demonstrate that a wolf can be domesticated, but will still
| keep its distance and act independently from the domesticating
| humans.
|
| Surprisingly, domesticated wolves test higher than dogs on
| intelligence tests. The show attributes dog behavior to a genetic
| mutation from their wolf ancestry. A similar mutation occurs in
| humans at 1:10k frequency called Williams Syndrome. One feature
| in this mutation is a form of learning disability; another is
| friendliness.
| [deleted]
| ambivalents wrote:
| This is obvious if you have a dog, but cool to see it studied.
|
| My dog is a velcro dog, he follows me everywhere. If I change
| direction he will too. If I start to run he will too. One amusing
| thing on our walks is he will walk confidently, determinedly in
| one direction, as if he is rushing to a destination. Then if I
| change direction, he immediately does too, as if forgetting about
| his original destination in the first place. Anthropomorphizing a
| bit I know.
|
| This article suggests all dogs are like this, mine just might do
| it to a stronger degree.
| noodlenotes wrote:
| Dogs also spend a lot of time on leashes where they'll get
| yanked around if they don't pay attention to their human's
| movements. And many families specifically train and reward dogs
| to move in sync with them (heeling, agility). It seems obvious
| that synchrony is something that humans both train and
| selectively breed dogs for. I guess the point of this study is
| that synchrony is another way to measure social connection
| between dogs and humans and that this connection extends to
| children.
| lordgroff wrote:
| Incidentally, my dog behaves and is far more synchronized off
| than on leash, so much so that I'm trying to train her to be
| leash free. She listens a lot better like that for some
| reason.
| viklove wrote:
| In a lot places, leashes are required by law. Something to
| keep in mind even if you do train your dog to be leash-
| free.
| vulcan01 wrote:
| > She listens a lot better like that for some reason.
|
| Maybe because the leash is uncomfortable for her?
| ska wrote:
| Maybe she's training you to reduce leash use...
| joedevon wrote:
| underrated comment
| phonebucket wrote:
| My dog moves when my two-year old does and is generally still
| otherwise. But I attribute this to my dog's survival instinct
| rather than an emotional bonding.
| _fs wrote:
| Nothing gets my dog moving like when the three year old grabs
| the food scoop and heads to the garage.
| INTPenis wrote:
| Yes exactly, also small children tend to leak food.
| elliekelly wrote:
| A few years ago I was in the Galapagos and met a German
| evolutionary biologist who pointed out some fur seals sleeping
| on the beach. It was a hot day but they were arranged in a neat
| line to sleep so they were touching.
|
| He explained it was a group evolutionary advantage - if one of
| them wakes up because of a predator attack, for example, they'd
| all be woken up and hopefully most of them would manage to get
| away. I specifically remember him mentioning that dogs and
| puppies still have a slight preference for sleeping the same
| way.
|
| I haven't for the life of me been able to remember the word (or
| phrase?) he used to describe the behavior and every so often I
| Google in vain for more information. I can't even recall
| whether the term he used was in english or german. Perhaps
| someone here can point me in the right direction?
| IncRnd wrote:
| The posture for a sleeping fur seal in water is called a jug
| handle. When seals are awake on the beach, they often lay in
| a banana pose, where they hold up their heads and tails out
| of the water.
| noodlenotes wrote:
| Jughandle is also apparently a type of ramp common in New
| Jersey where drivers who want to turn left have to take a
| ramp on the right. TIL.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jughandle
| bobo_legos wrote:
| Every Pennsylvanian who lives by the New Jersey border
| knows about jughandles and how absolutely ridiculous
| these things are. We also know about the idiocy that is
| the New Jersey traffic circle. Do not get these
| abominations confused with the modern roundabouts because
| they're nothing alike.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_traffic_circles_in_
| New...
| sweetheart wrote:
| Is this not a universal thing!?
| nappy-doo wrote:
| I can't help you with the term you're looking for, but as far
| as seals are concerned, they're genetically very close to
| dogs. I'd expect similar behaviors.
| lostlogin wrote:
| A friend who works in a conservation role was telling me
| about the time he took a seal to the beach to get it off
| the road in a small town. The window was open, and like a
| dog it was happiest with its nose in the breeze.
| munificent wrote:
| The mental image of cruising down a rural road, windows
| down, with a seal leaning out and enjoying the breeze is
| truly delightful.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Emotional bonding can be a survival instinct. If your dog has
| built a psychology (for lack of a better word) that leads it to
| mirror your family's behavior in appropriate ways, you're
| probably more likely to keep it (on the margins).
| lelanthran wrote:
| In other news, water is wet?
|
| Seriously, dog owners know all this already. They know that me
| puting my hat on means I'm going outside, if I grab my keys they
| know I'm leaving the yard, when I pick up a ball to throw, they
| know to look at my face (facial cues) to determine which
| direction I am going to throw it in.
| rakoo wrote:
| But people who don't own dogs might not. This research might be
| interesting for everyone else
| jinkyu wrote:
| came here to say this.
| tsdlts wrote:
| One thing that strikes me about my dog's awareness is he picks
| up on landmarks really easily. Once we get within a mile of the
| vet his demeanor changes and he becomes sulky. On the contrary,
| once we're in a mile or so from my mother's house he perks up
| and gets extremely excited. It'd be interesting to read
| research on how good a dog's spacial awareness is and how they
| manage to find themselves home while being miles away.
| selectodude wrote:
| Their ability to smell is hundreds of thousands of times
| better than ours. We think outside smells like outside. They
| think every sidewalk tile smells a little different. They
| know that landmark because that smell reminds them of the
| vet.
| amelius wrote:
| A scientist has even found that dogs know when their owner is
| coming home [1]
|
| Rupert Sheldrake had a Google Talk about this in 2008 [2]
|
| [1] https://www.sheldrake.org/books-by-rupert-sheldrake/dogs-
| tha...
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hic18Xyk9is
| worik wrote:
| As a child my dog was always at the top of the drive when I
| came home from school.
| jessaustin wrote:
| I suspect all domesticated animals, and many non-domesticated
| animals that live in close human contact, also display such
| behaviors. My horses respond to hearing the door of the house
| close early in the morning, knowing that grain is soon on the
| way. My cattle hear the tractor start and start moving in their
| slow fashion to the hay feeder. If I holler in a particular way
| that often presages grain, they'll stampede to the location.
| worik wrote:
| Yep they have minds, and they use them.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| I think I'm ok with studies determining that things we think
| are obviously true are true.
|
| 1. Sometimes they turn out not to be true so it is good to do
| the study
|
| 2. It would be bad to do the study looking for a surprise, find
| no surprise, and then not publish the results. Probably some
| university PR department is trying to come up with something to
| say.
| corpMaverick wrote:
| Also. Somethings are obvious but they are difficult to test.
| These experiments help us make progress on how to design
| experiments.
| notJim wrote:
| The lab this is from has a nice page with some of their
| publications here: https://thehumananimalbond.com/publication-
| media/
| hackeraccount wrote:
| Read the article for the line, "[cats]blow everything out of the
| water in terms of being socially responsive to their owners'
| behavior"
|
| i.e. You do your thing human and I'll do mine. See you later if I
| think you're nice and there's nothing better to do.
| say_it_as_it_is wrote:
| Your cat won't even notice or care if you're gone
| staticman2 wrote:
| You sound like someone with no experience with cats.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Cats can like you. The difference is that dogs think of you
| as a big upright dog, and cats think of you as something
| other than a cat. Dogs think of you as a peer, cats think of
| you as a pet or a fancy piece of furniture.
| worik wrote:
| You cannot read their minds.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Oh they do, it's just that they pretend not to when you're
| there. It's all on their terms.
| buu700 wrote:
| Cats are tsundere:
| https://soranews24.com/2019/08/17/japanese-people-love-
| cats-...
| PeterisP wrote:
| I seem to recall brain scanning research that showed that,
| unlike how it might seem from their behavior, cats
| recognize being called by name as good or better as dogs,
| they just often chose to ignore it.
| worik wrote:
| My dog does that. Easy to train, but not obedient.
| blonde_ocean wrote:
| Anecdotally, my cat definitely responds to his name being
| called. Often around feeding time
| noir_lord wrote:
| Except that is simply not true of some cats.
|
| I have two - one is remote, aloof and probably wouldn't
| notice I was gone.
|
| The other is affectionate, cuddly, always wants to sit on my
| knee and cries on a night when they get locked in the living
| room.
|
| Personality wise complete opposite ends of the spectrum.
| quesera wrote:
| An interesting note about cat personality:
|
| If you fall to the floor dead, your cats will eat you
| _before_ they are starving. Dogs will wait.
|
| I view this as practicality vs. sentimentality. I'm not
| sure which one I prefer, but I hope it is an accurate
| measurement of animal behavior.
| noir_lord wrote:
| > Like all pure creatures, cats are practical. - William
| S. Burroughs
| slacka wrote:
| > Dogs will wait.
|
| Often, wait to starve to death.
|
| "Your faithful golden retriever might sit next to your
| dead body for days, starving, but the tabby won't," she
| writes. "Your pet cat will eat you right away, with no
| qualms at all. I've seen the result."
|
| https://nypost.com/2014/08/03/a-million-ways-to-die-in-
| new-y...
| dmos62 wrote:
| Tangential, but I wonder how does it affect the cats having
| nearby another cat that's different personality-wise. I've
| a guinea pig that's kind of insecure, and planning to get
| another that's probably more outgoing. Can security be
| learned by osmosis?
| clairity wrote:
| in my experience, there's a limited amount of osmosis. i
| adopted my current (female) cat as a kitten when my prior
| (male) cat was declining toward death, in the hopes that
| she would provide some youthful companionship after his
| sister had passed away a few months before (they were
| littermates, got them as kittens).
|
| surprisingly, he became solemnly composed and accepting
| of her almost immediately, despite spending his whole
| life trying to dominate his sister (out of both
| competitiveness and territoriality, i imagine). i picked
| her from the kitten rescue specifically for her mild
| temper, knowing how dominating and insecure he could be.
| she was playful but respectful, and i'd like to think he
| was a little less lonely in those last few months with
| his sister already gone.
|
| fast forward a couple years, and i have an accidental
| (male) foster kitten who's a crazy ball of energy next to
| my mild-mannered, now-adult cat. otherwise pretty lazy,
| she's learning how to play more energetically and
| socialize with the little devil (as i socialize him as
| well--his first-time cat owner didn't seem to know if or
| how to do this).
|
| so yes, there's some osmosis going on, as cats learn from
| each other and the social structure shifts, but it's
| limited. no wholesale changes in my experience.
| munificent wrote:
| I used to have a weird dog that wasn't food motivated
| (which made it _really_ hard to train her), had a lot of
| separation anxiety, and pooped when we left the house. At
| least she was otherwise well potty-trained and didn 't
| pee inside.
|
| We got another dog to teach our first one how to be a
| normal dog and keep her company. Dog #2 was a rescue that
| had grown up on the streets. He was good about eating
| food but never learned to not pee inside.
|
| We ended up with two weird-ass food-disinterested anxious
| dogs that pee and poop indoors.
| triceratops wrote:
| > We ended up with two weird-ass food-disinterested
| anxious dogs that pee and poop indoors.
|
| Ouch.
| whalesalad wrote:
| Can't speak to cats but with dogs generally the answer is
| no. These are engrained personality traits.
| lenzm wrote:
| Guinea pigs are social animals, I'd get the second asap.
| The insecurity may be from being alone.
| noir_lord wrote:
| In the case of my pair they mostly ignore each other -
| brother and sister pair - they played together when they
| where young and they aren't aggressive, they just rotate
| opposite ends of whatever room they are in.
| dominotw wrote:
| > I wonder how does it affect the cats having nearby
| another cat that's different personality-wise
|
| I've had cats all my life. I would say it all depends on
| the cat. For some cats there is nothing worse that having
| another cat in their territory but some are more social.
|
| I've had older aloof cats come to life, perk up and
| become more social when there is new social cat in the
| house.
| moosebear847 wrote:
| If you raise a cat from kitten so it doesn't experience
| negative memories/associations with humans, consistently and
| empathetically analyze what it wants, and earn it's trust, they
| will be unbelievably affectionate and attached.
|
| If they meow at you or otherwise try to get your attention,
| they are trying to communicate something. I used to think they
| were just being cats doing random useless things like sniffing,
| pawing or meowing, but nearly every single time there was some
| scent I needed to deal with, a desire to poop/eat/move or
| something real that they were trying to communicate. If you
| consistently ignore their attempts at communication, they will
| stop trying after a few times (wouldn't you?) unless they're
| like starving. But if they know you pay attention and respond,
| they will communicate their wants to you pretty clearly.
| Nothing they do is random, there is always a reason for it.
| leetcrew wrote:
| I agree cats are much more intentional in their communication
| than people appreciate, but sometimes you can't just give the
| cat what it wants. my cat mainly meows for two reasons. he
| either wants food or he wants to go in the kitchen.
| unfortunately he can't be free fed because he will quickly
| become overweight. he's not allowed in the kitchen because he
| eats plants and jumps up on the stove, sometimes right next
| to an open flame. serious question: how would you handle this
| situation?
| aksss wrote:
| Probably depends on how old the cat is. I would aim towards
| a day where the cat can go into the kitchen without worry.
| Time is on your side because eventually the cat won't find
| the energy expenditure of jumping that height worth it (nor
| the risk of recovering from a bad jump). Start with
| supervised trips to kitchen but long term never leave
| anything up there that a successful cat burglar could
| access as a reward. If seen, I would react negatively
| (maybe spray bottle if u use that, loud remark, physically
| picking cat up off counter and putting on ground
| immediately). Never let cat have freedom or peace on the
| counter. I would watch for the cat's preferred landing
| spots on the counter and put some temporary barriers in
| place (e.g. 1lb sack of flour, etc), just so it has to
| think twice about its movements (don't let the path upwards
| become automatic/unconscious), and may doubt its ability to
| safely alight on the counter (remember it can only see
| what's on the ledge). I would also be sure to interrupt the
| action of jumping up before it happens - like you can see
| the cat's wheels turning as it stares at the counter, bobs
| it's head around slightly to accurately gauge distance,
| depth, etc. at that time, interrupt the thought process.
| Distract it with something else, maybe even something good,
| so _not_ jumping is a positive association. I think that
| pattern interrupt is really powerful with cats, but you
| have to be watching the cat to catch the right moment. You
| could also let the cat in the kitchen with no other purpose
| than to watch for and interrupt those moments. There's a
| few other tricks like this to interrupt the action (moving
| a barrier according to its intentions) that just frustrate
| the cat into eventually losing interest. Cat ownership
| occasionally involves small battles of will power.
|
| Regarding food, I can't say enough about the value of
| robots here - timed food distribution. Get a cat feeder
| that will release _x_ amount three or four times a day. I
| think cat binging behavior is an outcome of an
| unpredictable feeding schedule, basically food insecurity.
| When the cat just knows that every day at these predictable
| times it will have food available it will be a happier,
| less anxious cat for sure. Cats don't have watches, but
| they'll show up at the feeding station like clockwork
| anticipating the food drop. The flip side is the binging
| will stop just because of scarcity, but also the cat
| worries less about food security and develops behaviors of
| moderation. If feeding cat wet food (which I wouldn't
| recommend unless cat is very young or very old) you've just
| got to dole it out yourself on as a predictable basis as
| possible.
|
| Anyway, just my two cents, worth what you paid for it. Will
| be curious to see other people's input.
| leetcrew wrote:
| so I actually do have an automated feeder. unfortunately,
| I think he remembers the time before we had the feeder
| when humans would put food in his bowl. he waits
| patiently in the morning for the most part (maybe he
| realizes it's futile while I'm sleeping), but he usually
| starts meowing for food a few hours before the feeder is
| scheduled to dispense it in the afternoon. BTW, the
| portions are exactly what the vet recommended; he's not
| starving.
|
| with the kitchen, I do let him in if I'm going to be in
| there for a while. I think he really just wants to be
| where the people are. I don't use spray bottles or
| anything like that. I've read that sometimes the animal
| forms a negative association with the human rather than
| the proscribed behavior. I just put him out the first
| time he jumps on the counter or chews on a plant.
|
| anyways, it's not really a big deal. I don't find the
| meowing terribly annoying. I just want, if possible, to
| be sure I'm making the distinction between ignoring his
| requests and acknowledging them but "saying no".
| doctorfoo wrote:
| My cats very rarely go on a counter - since they were
| kittens, if I ever saw them there I would clap loudly and
| shout, shoo them off with my hands.
| aksss wrote:
| Yeah, I don't use a spray bottle either. I think there
| are better ways to modify behavior, such as that pattern
| interrupt. Cats are also way more empathetic than they're
| given credit for, so I do think that they understand when
| main human is not happy with them.
|
| My cat has an uncanny ability to ask for food right
| before my alarm goes off. I've often wondered how it
| pulls this off even after a DST changeover, and figured
| it was because she could hear the rest of my neighborhood
| start to get active so not unreasonable to bug us. Simple
| fix: I set the first food drop about 15mins before my
| alarm. By the time I'm up she's already chilling out
| post-feed. The cat and I agree that more food=better,
| particularly in frequency, with the caveat that I'm just
| trying to keep her from gaining or shedding any
| significant weight between vet visits, so that's really
| the only limit I put on it. A decent pattern for us seems
| to be four times during my normal waking hours. Like
| morning, noonish/early afternoon, late afternoon, mid-
| evening. She's a little scrounger though, definitely
| interested in whatever I'm eating, particularly cheese,
| and will try to convince any stranger that she hasn't
| eaten for days and is on the verge of death (OmG). But
| yeah, healthy weight and stable.
| Alupis wrote:
| A properly fed cat, with an established routine, should
| only start going crazy around it's normal feeding time.
|
| Most cats and dogs crave a routine. Unfortunately,
| sometimes a routine is difficult to establish if your work
| hours don't permit, or other activities get in the way.
| That was the original intention behind the free-feeders,
| however as you noted that can lead to obesity in your pet
| (not all pets, some regulate their intake well on their
| own).
|
| So, if you're one that is establishing a feeding time, make
| sure you stick to exactly the same time every day (like
| clockwork, seriously). You may even consider providing
| "breakfast" and "dinner" to your cat (again on a fixed
| schedule), dividing the daily intake into two meals.
|
| Your cat wants into the Kitchen because they are curious
| creatures, and you've made the Kitchen some fun forbidden
| zone. Ideally you're in the Kitchen when the stove is on,
| so you can prevent burns. You could also try training them
| into a negative association with the stove by squirting
| them with a squirt gun (low pressure) every time they walk
| on it... same with nibbling the plants.
| Etheryte wrote:
| > People who take up dancing together, for instance, often
| express greater closeness and cohesion afterward. Moving in
| tandem seems to generate intangible, intimate bonds.
|
| As a dancer in my youth, it's a bit funny reading someone writing
| this as research. Dancing is physically close, intimate, other-
| person-way-closer-than-your-regular-comfort-zone by nature. Add
| to that that eye contact, again inherently intimate, is crucial
| for coordinating any nuanced moves and you'd be hard pressed to
| find anything other than the above result. There is no way to put
| in the hours of rote practice, sweat, awkward mishaps and more
| without becoming intimate with your dance partner. I'm not saying
| it's bad there's research into this, I'm more so surprised this
| is something that was only strictly established by research in
| 2015.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| "becoming intimate" -- do you mean literally (ie, becoming
| emotionally close with feings of trust and connectedness), or
| as a euphemism for sex?
| aksss wrote:
| In this context it means becoming close and connected, not a
| euphemism for sex.
| noodlenotes wrote:
| The entire reply is about how contrived physical closeness
| leads to emotional closeness so it seems out of left field to
| think this was a euphemism for sex.
| notsureaboutpg wrote:
| >Dancing is physically close, intimate, other-person-way-
| closer-than-your-regular-comfort-zone by nature. Add to that
| that eye contact, again inherently intimate, is crucial for
| coordinating any nuanced moves and you'd be hard pressed to
| find anything other than the above result.
|
| Also puts in new perspective the early 20th century attitudes
| towards Jazz, Rock N Roll, dancing, flappers, etc.
|
| There is anecdote that Sayyid Qutb really turned away from
| modernity and towards Islamism when he witnessed a Church in
| Colorado (he was at UC Boulder) that held a mixed dance in one
| of the Church buildings.
| shuntress wrote:
| Maybe it took until 2015 because people thought it was too
| obvious to bother recording.
| mudita wrote:
| From the way you're writing about dance, I assume that you mean
| couple dances like tango or waltz?
|
| This study is not about a couple dance, where one has physical
| contact with one dance partner, but about synchronised movement
| to music in a group.
| Izkata wrote:
| I was actually imagining ballet when reading their
| description.
|
| Competitive cheerleading as well isn't just physically close,
| there are moves where you're literally putting your life in
| your teammates hands.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| I feel similarly about wrestling. The culture can be extremely
| macho (often to its detriment) - but the physical contact and
| trust involved similarly builds bonds.
| TrispusAttucks wrote:
| Wrestled from an early age. Totally agree. Takes a lot of
| trust to let someone shoot in trip and slam you. Knowing that
| it's your turn next. You truly know someone's strength and
| skill and all the social tough guy posturing means nothing
| when it's just two people on the mat.
| leetcrew wrote:
| > You truly know someone's strength and skill and all the
| social tough guy posturing means nothing when it's just two
| people on the mat.
|
| I ultimately decided wrestling wasn't for me, but I did
| appreciate this part of it. there were quite a few matches
| in highschool where some scrawny kid got matched against
| one of the "athletic" types. often turned out to be quite
| the upset if the scrawny guy had actually been paying
| attention to the coaches.
| dylan604 wrote:
| this is the reason you're supposed to "leave room for jesus"
| when dancing. the evils of dancing have been propogated by
| religious beliefs directly because of its known proclivity
| towards initimate behavior.
| toiletfuneral wrote:
| my conservative christian school told us that holding hands
| is as bad as pre-marital sex because it was the first step
| towards fornication.
|
| that place was terrible
| proc0 wrote:
| They were wrong in teaching it to children, but I don't
| think many people would want to see their significant other
| holding hands with someone else. There is a lot of wisdom
| in ancient religions but it's often wielded by less-than-
| capable people.
| toby wrote:
| This is pretty cultural and contextual -- in many social
| groups, at least on the west coast, holding hands and
| cuddling between friends is common. In some Asian
| countries you often see two boys walking down the street
| holding hands. I don't really agree that there's wisdom
| in teaching people jealousy over perfectly innocent
| behavior.
| worik wrote:
| As a Pakeha boy in Aotearoa in the 1960s I used to hold
| hands with my friends quite often. Especially if we were
| in conversation. Never even though twice about it. Eight
| years old
| proc0 wrote:
| I said there's wisdom in ancient religions that have
| observed something about human nature that is otherwise
| hard to observe from a single individual's vantage point
| (not to mention trying to explain it in a concise/precise
| way). Saying it's equivalent to "teaching people
| jealousy" is illustrating my point, that teachings are
| often reduced and bastardized and then taught to
| children. Regardless, point taken and I agree there is
| cultural context, but even in hand-holding cultures,
| there will be an equivalent of an exterior but subtle
| show of attraction and the point Christians make (IMHO)
| is that you can be dishonest with yourself and then fall
| into the "trap", so it's almost a reductionist approach
| to morality, since if you intend never to "cheat" then
| why would you even be interested in the "first step",
| whatever that is for the culture.
| slacka wrote:
| As someone who grew up in a family of pet owners, the joke is
| anytime there is a story with "study" and "dog", that any dog
| owner could have told them that. This study is what we refer to
| as the "invisible leash" that dogs have with with their masters.
| The article also touches on mirroring behavior, which is also
| well known and even has a whole class of dog training based
| around it called "Do as I Do"[1] I trained my dog this way as a
| pup. AMA.
|
| Dogs spend their lives trying to figure out what we want and the
| meaning of our words. Science has year to catch up to learn just
| how much they understand and how in-tune they are with their
| adopted pack.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC3OqbjlxkM
| ska wrote:
| There is a tendency to feel this way when anything in day to
| day experience (pet ownership, parenthood, career experience,
| etc.) overlaps with scientific study.
|
| It's tempting to say "well, obviously" but it's a slippery
| slope. Beyond the obvious potential for confirmation bias,
| etc., when you do the science carefully, sometimes you find out
| what people "knew" was just wrong.
|
| This happens often enough to make it worth the effort.
| postalrat wrote:
| In the case of dogs you will probably find more things that
| is common knowledge with dog owners that science got wrong
| vs. things where science showed that owners were wrong.
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