[HN Gopher] A call to improve London's lighting at night
___________________________________________________________________
A call to improve London's lighting at night
Author : edward
Score : 76 points
Date : 2021-03-17 08:15 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.ianvisits.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.ianvisits.co.uk)
| lanevorockz wrote:
| Are we advocating for ultra bright streets because some people
| might be criminal. It's nice that we suddenly no longer treat
| criminals like guilty but only society. Can't wait until US and
| europe turn into third world countries.
| Symbiote wrote:
| > An example that has often struck me, mainly by not being struck
| by them when walking around the City of London is how few
| lampposts there are in the City. Have you ever noticed that
| they're almost non-existent? That's because most of the street
| lighting is mounted on the buildings.
|
| That's one of the most significant differences between most parts
| of most British cities, and many other European cities.
|
| I doubt it will change, since it would require laying new wires
| and (probably) getting permissions from building owners, but I
| think the absence of street light poles makes a street look much
| nicer. (But without a pole to lean the bags against, where would
| Londoners leave their refuse on bin day?)
|
| Even better than building-mounted lights are lights suspended
| from wires strung between buildings, as in Copenhagen [1] (that
| is unusually heavy rain, the photographer was "lucky").
|
| [1] https://teemusphoto.com/copenhagen-street-photography/
| dijit wrote:
| The "hanging between buildings" style of lights is absolutely
| trippy on a dark, windy evening while looking down a streat, it
| looks like the power is going on/off.
|
| I live in Malmo and they have the same way of mounting lights
| for the streets in the inner city.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Eh, i very much prefer fixed lampposts that aren't going
| anywhere
| jedimastert wrote:
| I'm reminded of a Technology Connections video about what
| happened when his town switched from incandescent to LED stop
| lights <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8>
|
| Of course, while I was looking that up I found out he made a
| video about sodium vapour lights!
| <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIC-iGDTU40>
| te_chris wrote:
| The ones they've installed in Islington are awful. The old orange
| ones had a charm about them. The new ones are cold and harsh. I
| don't understand why such a cool temp was picked.
| dylan604 wrote:
| This is what I don't understand. Our phones have night modes
| where it moves the color temp away from blues. The fact
| seeminly knowbody in charge of exterior lighting has figured
| out the same thing boggles me. Also, the abundance of cheap
| nighlights that are "bright white" instead of a calming "warm"
| as LEDs have taken to calling themselves.
| mnw21cam wrote:
| That bit is fairly easy to understand. Warm white (low colour
| temperature) LEDs aren't as efficient (they don't produce as
| bright a light for the same power input) as cold white (high
| colour temperature) lights. So if they just go down the
| options looking for the most efficient LED, that's what they
| will choose.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| To be fair, phones do this to not interfere with your sleep
| when you use it late.
|
| When it comes to street lights, there's an argument to be
| made that you _do_ want to interfere with /defer the sleep of
| anyone who's walking/driving outside.
|
| The problem of course is collateral damage to people's houses
| where street lighting leaks into their windows, but assuming
| this is mitigated, I think street lighting that intentionally
| defers sleepiness is better.
| pgalvin wrote:
| The issue is such lighting (blue) also makes your night
| vision far worse. They're actually much more dangerous and
| have increased road traffic accidents where they have been
| installed. Warmer lighting seems to be worse, as it does
| not illuminate the target area as brightly, but it ensures
| your eyes can see further outside of the target area.
|
| White LED street lamp makes the road super clear, but
| messes up your night vision. You don't see the pedestrian
| about to step in the road, then you hit them. Could have
| been averted with warmer, orange lights.
| dylan604 wrote:
| Same goes for those cars with the bright white headlights
| as well. they are absolutely blinding for on-coming
| traffic
| goatinaboat wrote:
| _I don 't understand why such a cool temp was picked._
|
| Same as most government decisions. Some combination of "it was
| cheaper" and "I don't live there, it's for the plebs".
| b3kart wrote:
| I'd use the Hanlon's razor [1] here.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor
| obitoo wrote:
| Quite a few members of the government _do_ live in Islington
| Symbiote wrote:
| Islington is _the_ stereotypical place where MPs live /lived
| in London.
|
| Boris Johnson, Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn, Emily Thornberry,
| Margaret Hodge ...
| darrenf wrote:
| To be fair:
|
| * Corbyn has been an MP for Islington South since 1983
|
| * Thornberry is MP for Islington North since 2005
|
| * Margaret Hodge was on Islington council for 21 years
|
| So I would say it's somewhat unfair to accuse it of being a
| stereotypical choice for them. They live(d) amongst their
| electorate.
| Veen wrote:
| Yes, but there in nevertheless a stereotypical "Islington
| Set".
|
| - https://the-politics.wikia.org/wiki/Islington_set
| fergie wrote:
| I actually quite like the gold/yellow light on "traditional"
| British street lights. Not only is it arguably more "natural"
| than whiter hued light, but I think it actually illuminates
| better. I live in a city in another country that uses white
| street lights, and I find the illumination to be a lot worse than
| that of sodium lighting
| elric wrote:
| I'm quite fond of the orangey hue myself. Harsh white light is
| awful. The contrast between the dark of night and white light
| is too great and it messes up my vision (migraineur with stupid
| light sensitivity issues).
|
| I've recently encountered a couple of construction sites which
| are illumunated by a particularly pleasant green hue at night.
| That might be even better.
|
| And while we're on the subject of street lights, can we
| _please_ stop with all the light pollution?
| rini17 wrote:
| Same, but recently more and more streetlights are refurbished
| with 2700K LEDs instead of 4000K and I like these much better.
| flurdy wrote:
| Oh god I hate the yellow lights. When I moved to the UK in the
| 90s it took a while to realise what was "wrong" at night, then
| I realised it was the street lights. Every colour and
| definition disappeared, hard to spot the right car etc, and
| late evening strolls was less enjoyable as everything was
| blase. I am glad there are a lot fewer of them around now.
| Shivetya wrote:
| my little subdivision transitioned across a few years from the
| orange type lamps to LED, I have commented on it a few times
| here.
|
| The primary effect is that its like having a near full moon
| effect at all times of the night. Not looking directly at the
| light reveals a landscape that is not harsh on the eyes but
| never catch a lamp straight on.
|
| Fortunately around me the birds caught on pretty quick at first
| singing at odd hours until they sorted it out.
|
| Overall its a benefit as it has opened up hours people can walk
| the sidewalks and even in the street without worrying about
| wildlife blundering into them
| hinkley wrote:
| Street lights should be a balance between visibility, light
| pollution, and night vision protection. As a tax payer I'd also
| like them to think about efficiency, longevity.
|
| A daylight colored bulbs are probably not doing our night
| vision any favors (but then head lights have the same problem,
| yes?). Going from a lit street onto a side street with few
| lights is potentially a problem depending on the kind of street
| lights.
| throw0101a wrote:
| > _A daylight colored bulbs are probably not doing our night
| vision any favors_
|
| More importantly, colour temperature >3200K screw up the
| circadian rhythms of humans and animals:
|
| * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-
| indus...
|
| * https://spectrum.ieee.org/green-tech/conservation/led-
| street...
| krtkush wrote:
| I find white light depressing.
|
| My home city has metro coaches with either yellow or white
| lights. Me and a few friends of mine would skip the white ones
| because we found the yellow ones more comforting. On the other
| hand, my dad prefers white and in a room with types of lighting
| he will always go for the white ones.
| llampx wrote:
| I like daylight bulbs as well, living in Germany they are a
| lifesaver because it is cloudy all day and dark at 3-4PM in
| the winter. However in the evening, around 8PM, I change over
| to the yellow hued ones. Best of both worlds.
| spijdar wrote:
| I prefer natural white lights. I don't light rooms with them,
| but the light that terrarium/vivarium bulbs made to mimic
| sunlight give off is sublime IMO.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Yeah I agree. NYC went full on LED a few years back and I hate
| it. I have a lamppost right outside my apartment window and
| previously the light didn't really bother me, now it's this
| horrible cold LED that's super bright flooding into my living
| room.
|
| I get that they're cheaper to operate, but they throw shadows
| differently and have more blue wavelengths in them (in nyc
| they're 4000 kelvin last I looked). It personally feels much
| less magical to me and 3-4 years in I still haven't really
| gotten used to it.
| adonovan wrote:
| The new NYC lampposts also spread wide light cones, which is
| good for road safety but means they intrude through house
| windows. Astronomers have also complained about the lights
| worsening the "seeing", which is already bad.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Exactly, I wish they at least had some sort of shade on the
| back towards the sidewalk that stopped it throwing that
| much light back on the houses. Do we really need that much
| light on a one way, residential street?
| Starwatcher2001 wrote:
| "Seeing" is actually about how steady the atmosphere is.
| The old sodium lights emit in a narrow part of the spectrum
| which can be mitigated against by using light pollution
| filters. These allow all light through, except sodium
| frequencies. Sadly, filters are ineffective against modern
| LED lighting which emits across a lot of the spectrum.
| jacobolus wrote:
| It's actually garbage for road safety because bluer lamps
| spaced so far apart creates less even lighting, blows out
| everyone's night vision, causes distracting glare in
| peripheral vision, and makes it impossible to see into the
| shadows.
|
| The ideal for road safety would be more uniform lighting
| from a larger number of closer-spaced lamps, placed at
| lower height, diffused, shielded from the sides, and
| colored orange (and optionally uniformly dimmer).
|
| It would also help road safety to ban the new bluer types
| of car headlamps, which cause much worse glare than
| previous yellower ones.
| rootusrootus wrote:
| > which cause much worse glare than previous yellower
| ones
|
| The color has almost nothing to do with that. Newer
| headlights are much brighter, and mostly use projectors
| now. The increase in glare is mostly due to the
| projectors, because they emit all their light from small
| point. You'll notice that newer cars with halogen
| projectors are almost as bad as one with HIDs.
|
| It would be interesting to see how a headlight would look
| if it were able to emit the same amount of light on the
| road but from a rectangle spanning the entire front of
| the car. Minimum glare, still effective.
| jacobolus wrote:
| > _color has almost nothing to do with that_
|
| The color makes much of the difference. (What really
| matters is the total intensity in the shorter-wavelength
| part of the spectrum, so sure, making the lamps much
| brighter and less diffused is also bad.)
|
| Shorter wavelengths cause significantly more glare,
| because the peripheral part of the human retina is packed
| with rods and S cones. Intense light including shorter
| wavelengths also causes the eyes to become bright-
| adapted, making it harder to see in the dark.
|
| The super-bright halogen headlamps emit much more blue
| light than previous incandescent headlamps, and are
| included alongside LED headlamps in my complaint here.
|
| Bigger, much dimmer, more diffuse lamps would help, but
| they should also be less blue. (And people should stop
| mounting headlamps on their SUVs and pickup trucks at
| other drivers' eye level and aiming them straight ahead.)
| quickthrowman wrote:
| I've seen exterior fixtures that have shielding options to
| prevent light from being cast at houses, but it's an added
| cost. We sometimes install them on commercial buildings
| that abut residential areas to prevent light pollution into
| neighboring homes.
| Zamicol wrote:
| Isn't 4000k far more "natural"? A full moon is 4000k.
| chrisin2d wrote:
| Not at that brightness. Moonlight is extremely dim.
| canoebuilder wrote:
| Moonlight for some hours of the month, never exceeding a
| rather low intensity, a minuscule intensity compared to a
| single led streetlight.
|
| The night time lighting humans(and our non-human co-
| inhabitants of earth) have evolved with and known for a
| very longtime comes from fires of various types, flames
| with a much warmer color temperature.
| Godel_unicode wrote:
| Humans have had fire at night on a regular basis for a
| pretty short time, evolutionarily speaking. And that goes
| double for what animals might have seen; actual fire is
| so resource intensive that until a few hundred years ago
| the vast majority of the night was lit only by the moon
| and stars.
|
| Also, intensity is orthogonal to color temperature.
| samatman wrote:
| Use of fire predates anatomically modern humans by some
| hundreds of thousands of years.
|
| Consider the spread of lactose tolerance, a recent (no
| more than 10,000 years and perhaps less) mutation which
| has spread to 35% of humanity in that time. We have had
| plenty of time to co-evolve with fire, and doubtless, we
| have done so.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Well, we certainly didnt co-evolve to be fireproof in all
| this time, so what adaptation to fire do you suggest we
| did evolve?
|
| Its probably to do with cooked food, not vision - which
| is already co-evolved with the Sun, for when we are
| active/hunting/etc.
| kaybe wrote:
| You might be able to get the city to add some metal to shade
| the light coming into your room. I don't know about the US,
| but here in Germany it took me one call to the city office
| and two weeks of waiting.
| skohan wrote:
| This also seems like a choice. There is no reason LED's
| cannot create warmer light, and there is probably a solution
| to scatter the rays and not give that "clinical" kind of
| light which LEDs are known for.
|
| I have an LED desk lamp with a temperature setting, and when
| it's on the warmer settings it really does produce a pleasant
| light.
| quickthrowman wrote:
| LED lights do in fact have the ability to do different
| color temps, some fixtures have tunable color temp as well.
| In my home, I use lamps that output 2200-2700K depending on
| the dimmer setting. Lower color temps output less lumens
| per watt, and the goal of exterior lighting is generally to
| improve visibility, hence the 4K color temp.
|
| Here's a cutsheet for a Lithonia wall pack fixture showing
| the different options, there's also a chart showing what
| the lumens per watt is based on the color temp:
| https://img.acuitybrands.com/public-
| assets/catalog/1008038/w...
| MayeulC wrote:
| The color a LED emits is given by the choice of materials
| (specifically, the band-gap, with E=hn, n being light
| frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_gap#Light_em
| itting_diodes... )
|
| "Tunable" LEDs are just multiple LEDs, the goal being to
| change the emission peak. Peak wavelength can be mapped
| onto a black body temperature trough Wien's law (lpeak
| =2.8e-3/T)
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wien%27s_displacement_law
|
| I don't really know how the mapping is done, though, as
| there are different ways to map it since the LEDs won't
| have the same emission curve as a black body.
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Similar feelings in Chicago.
|
| It also makes me feel _less_ safe at night. I get that the
| orange glow makes everything look muddy, color-wise, but it
| doesn 't kill your night vision to the same extent as the
| bright white LEDs do. Sure, things directly under the
| streetlight are lit up like it's daytime, but I can't see for
| @$#% in between the streetlights or behind the bushes or
| whatever.
|
| I'm curious why it seems that no city has tried installing
| amber LEDs in an effort to try and realize the efficiency
| gains without quite so many of the downsides.
| throwaway894345 wrote:
| My opinion is that the whiter LEDs are a welcome change
| from their orange predecessors. I'm normally very
| nostalgic, but I make an exception for orange street
| lights.
| selectodude wrote:
| >I'm curious why it seems that no city has tried installing
| amber LEDs in an effort to try and realize the efficiency
| gains without quite so many of the downsides.
|
| Flagstaff, Arizona did. There are some drawbacks, mostly
| that they simply don't get as bright.
|
| https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/10/how-flagstaff-
| arizon...
| mumblemumble wrote:
| Aha. And that article also explains why. In terms of
| lumens per watt, it appears that the amber LEDs are
| actually about 40% _less_ efficient than the low pressure
| sodium lights they would be replacing.
| proggy wrote:
| True. That said, LED lighting has a directionality
| advantage as well. So it turns out you need less of them
| to get the same basic coverage as the sodium lamps.
| Here's an account of how Tucson, with its many
| observatories, managed to keep within budget using
| standard, high-efficiency blue LED fixtures:
|
| "If you absolutely must use white LEDs, you could do what
| Tucson has done," Hall said. "They... switched out their
| whole high-pressure sodium system to 3,000 degree white
| but reduced their lumen budget for street lighting from
| 480 million to, like, 170 million [lumens] or something.
| And you need to do that. For every white LED lumen,
| you're increasing your skyglow by a factor of about
| three, but they cut the lumen budget by about a factor of
| three. So overall, they managed to wash out the skyglow
| because they've got a lot of observatories down there."
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| Lumens per watt is the curse of bureaucratic/industrial
| mandated lighting. Problem is people hate lighting with
| low CRI, people also hate dim blue light. But you can't
| put a number on hate like you can lumens per watt.
|
| Efficiency regulations for residential fluorescent
| lighting delayed adoption by probably 25 years. Because
| regulations mandated lamps with terrible CRI.
| alistairSH wrote:
| Agreed. THere's a street lamp outside my bedroom window. It
| used to be a dull yellow, which was still plenty to illuminate
| the surrounding sidewalk and parking spaces. And didn't impact
| my sleep. A year or so ago, the bulb was replaced with a bright
| white bulb. It might produce more light, but it's a distracting
| color and brightness when outside and it's bright enough that
| we have to install black-out blinds to sleep.
| jws wrote:
| It's worth mentioning that if a street light shines in your
| window you may be able to contact your town and have them
| shade that side.
|
| My city has a contact on the web, you identify the light and
| what you would like shaded, and they come around and block
| the light on that sector. In my case it looks like they
| painted a section of the diffuser black.
| mnd999 wrote:
| I have one too, and now they've stuck a white ANPR camera
| directly under the bulb reflecting the light back anywhere
| but down. The local councils in the UK are clueless when it
| comes to lighting.
| sdevonoes wrote:
| I agree. Somehow I feel more "secure" (I don't know why) with
| gold/yellow lights.
|
| White light reminds me of: dentist clinics, hospitals, metro
| stations... not very friendly places.
| iamatworknow wrote:
| When I was growing up my father was pretty frugal, so he was
| very early on the train of replacing all of our home's
| lightbulbs with fluorescents. However, I don't think he
| really understood what color temperatures meant, so he always
| seemed to buy the bulbs with the higher temperatures. Higher
| is better, right? So he always went with the super sterile
| cold 5000K bulbs, and just as you say, home felt like some
| sort of weird sterile warehouse.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| And yet, the opposite is likely true; yellow lights feel
| warmer, but white lights make people feel exposed. You
| generally feel safe from other people in well lit places.
|
| There's research about e.g. subway incidents and safety when
| they got better / brighter / whiter lights.
| clairity wrote:
| not just the light temperature (2700K would be better), but the
| idea that a street light must be a bulb boxes in the design.
| led lights can be made in any sort of configuration, since it's
| an amalgamation of bunch of small point sources, not just one
| big point source.
|
| it would be neat to have light strips alongside the sidewalk
| and the road, as well as above. that way, the light can be
| lower intensity in aggregate while still providing the
| necessary illumination (via surrounding light vs. flooding) to
| make out details. our eyes are highly adaptive, and we don't
| need a lot of light, but rather, light from many angles.
|
| also, the safety argument is often overstated in relation to
| the intensity of light. you only need a little light to reduce
| crime and accidents to its threshold. more isn't better in this
| regard.
| rini17 wrote:
| Compact light sources aren't recent invention, and various
| lighting methods were tried. I think pylons with bulb boxes
| still come out best in illumination quality vs.
| price/maintenance.
| noir_lord wrote:
| When LA went over to LED it caused massive problems because the
| tonal colours of LA at night changed radically.
|
| https://la.curbed.com/2014/2/3/10156584/las-new-led-streetli...
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| Massive problem, eh?
| ForHackernews wrote:
| I guess Los Angeles must be practically a utopia if "making
| movies look somewhat different" counts as a massive problem
| for that city.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Yellow lenses are used in sports to increase contrast in lower
| light situations. I wonder if yellow lamps have the same effect
| and provide more perceived visibility with less light.
| Lammy wrote:
| I did the opposite and got yellow-lenses glasses:
| https://www.jins.com/us/jins-screen#night-use
|
| No affiliation, and no idea if there's truth to any of the
| marketing copy, but I'm personally very happy with them
| especially when driving at night due to the awful intensity
| of LED brake/tail lights on other cars.
| jacobolus wrote:
| Orange safety glasses will work better than this, if you
| don't mind looking silly.
| Lammy wrote:
| These are prescription though :)
| DrBazza wrote:
| My local council, prior to recent events in London, decided to
| turn off all lights after 1am (or thereabouts) "to save money".
| There was a backlash, and also at the same time when LEDs
| became more affordable, so the lights are back on, but they're
| not the same as the good old fashioned orange/sodium lights.
| The light is more focused on the ground, and it makes driving a
| little bit more 'interesting' in the evenings. Compare that to
| the orange lights, where it was more diffuse and even.
|
| Improving the lighting is also at odds with wanting a dark sky
| for the local wildlife too. It has a noted effect on birds for
| instance.
|
| Apropos of nothing... I also remember a story about a northern
| country replacing traffic lights with LEDs and then spending
| even more money adding heaters because the old lights were
| naturally warm, and melted any ice that stuck to the lights.
| Can't find a link to it at the moment.
| M2Ys4U wrote:
| >Apropos of nothing... I also remember a story about a
| northern country replacing traffic lights with LEDs and then
| spending even more money adding heaters because the old
| lights were naturally warm, and melted any ice that stuck to
| the lights. Can't find a link to it at the moment.
|
| The Technology Connections channel on YouTube has an
| _excellent_ video on this, called 'The LED Traffic Light and
| the Danger of "But Sometimes!"':
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8
| flurdy wrote:
| My council are also started turning off their lights during
| the night. I understand it but I hate it. I feel sorry for
| the dude across the street that now comes home from work in
| the dark. Personally I feel a lot less secure now staring out
| in the darkness with a lot of houses and people nearby but we
| can't see them. I think in more suburban and rural setting
| this might make sense, but this is still in the town with
| many people so it makes little sense to me.
|
| I think partially the problem is people(us) have designed
| their lighting and safety around the street lights being on,
| and now they are not it is an issue. I have lived in other
| countries where the norm is for houses to have subtle outside
| lights that are permanently on at night. But around here they
| do not and people are more paranoid so all the terraced
| houses instead have over-active motion sensors with massive
| flood lights. That are now very noticeable when a poor late
| night clubber/shift worker/early morning dog walker/baker etc
| walks by...
| Faaak wrote:
| In my towns in France, it's actually the opposite: more
| cities are turning of the lights between 23 and 5 and I
| personally love it. It gives a sense of "city-sleeping"
| peacefulness
| garaetjjte wrote:
| >Not only is it arguably more "natural" than whiter hued light,
| but I think it actually illuminates better.
|
| I think it is neither "natural" or better illuminating. Sodium
| lamps have CRI of around, what, 30?
|
| I'm glad that these sodium lamps are finally getting replaced
| everywhere, and cities at night won't have that monochromatic
| depressing-ugly-yellow lighting.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I'm happy sodium lamps are getting replaced, I'm not happy
| with the replacements which might be worse.
|
| With LEDs it should be very possible to light streets with
| low temperature close-to-blackbody light. (I don't know if
| the proximity to a blackbody radiation distribution is the
| same as CRI etc.) Who _wouldn 't_ want this?
| ben_w wrote:
| LED light can be about as far as it's possible to get from
| a blackbody spectrum, if similarly to that is what you care
| about (I don't, art galleries do).
|
| There are two ways of doing "white" with LEDs:
|
| * Separate red, green, and blue, whose spectrum is spiky:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-
| emitting_diode#/media/Fi...
|
| * Phosphor, which may give you a spectrum like this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-
| emitting_diode#/media/Fi...
| jeffbee wrote:
| CRI is not used to measure whether a light helps people with
| practical vision tasks at night. It's quite possible that a
| light with CRI zero, totally monochromatic, could be the best
| choice by some objective measures.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| If CRI is low, all colours on an object are fucked. Ao
| people in general are going to be worse at idebtifying what
| they are looking at or reacting. You won't be able to look
| at a picture, read text on your credit card, etc.
|
| Sure what you outline is possible in some spesific
| scenario, but it's not gonna work for 99%
| [deleted]
| statstutor wrote:
| Living in London (specifically Haringey, which is mentioned in
| the article), I was amazed - positively - when my residential
| street switched to directed, white, LED light.
|
| It lit the street and not everything else.
|
| I could see a few stars in the night sky, for the first time
| since moving to London.
|
| I no longer had to deal so carefully with light leaking into my
| bedroom.
| almaember wrote:
| I live in a country which uses both (it's moving towards white
| lights but it's not uniform), and I like yellow lights MUCH
| better. The very bright white lights just hurt my eyes.
| xioxox wrote:
| Also the sodium lights are also much easier to filter out if
| you do astronomy. So much lighting is bad nowadays - lighting
| the sky rather than the ground.
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| A lot of people here are talking about how the warmer "yellow"
| lights feel nicer on the eyes or generally give more of a glow
| than a bright LED. I agree that the yellow lights are nicer to
| look at but a brighter LED does provide more illumination and can
| help people feel safer and actually be safer when traveling at
| night.
|
| There are always trade offs. Is safety for those who must commute
| late at night a fair trade off for lights that are less pleasant
| on the eyes?
| mtalantikite wrote:
| > There are always trade offs. Is safety for those who must
| commute late at night a fair trade off for lights that are less
| pleasant on the eyes?
|
| Are you referring to people that commute by car or in general?
| I don't generally have a problem with very bright lights on a
| highway, but do we really need them on residential streets? I
| didn't feel unsafe taking subways and walking at 3-4 am in NYC
| pre-LEDs. In fact I much preferred it, the city felt dreamier
| (for whatever subjective measure of "dreamier" is, of course).
| Taylor_OD wrote:
| > I didn't feel unsafe taking subways and walking at 3-4 am
| in NYC pre-LEDs. In fact I much preferred it, the city felt
| dreamier (for whatever subjective measure of "dreamier" is,
| of course).
|
| In general.
|
| Because you didnt feel unsafe it does not mean that you were
| unsafe and that other didnt feel unsafe.
|
| I agree that the yellow lights look nicer in general.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| I guess to clarify, I didn't feel any more unsafe pre-LED
| than I did post-LED. And of course my experience isn't
| everyone's experience.
|
| Probably the most unsafe I've felt in the city was a random
| fight between passenger's on the subway in mid-day when the
| guy I was standing next to flashed a gun. Probably should
| have moved away from him now that I'm thinking back on it,
| for some reason I just kept standing there -- NYC sort of
| trains you to just accept wild situations I guess. Except
| if the person starts taking off their pants, then you
| definitely have to move to the next car.
| stfp wrote:
| Meanwhile traffic crashes and pedestrian deaths are up because
| people driving (even during the day) can't resist speeding and
| looking at their phones.
|
| Also meanwhile, cars are getting super bright headlights that
| actually make it harder to see at night in the city (signs and
| windows will reflect a lot more than people, you'll be blinded
| by oncoming cars...)
|
| My point being, there is no safety tradeoff being evaluated -
| we're getting super bright, super white LEDs because of
| economics (white/cool LEDs are cheaper) and a general
| fascination/desire to get the brightest thing possible.
| syoc wrote:
| I don't learning where to look is emphasized enough during
| driving education. You should not be looking directly at the
| other car or towards their side of the road when driving in
| the dark. Just resting your eyes on the right side of the
| road will make a huge difference. I was thought that you
| should turn on your high beams when the approaching car is
| two car lenghts in front of you. A lot of people do around
| here. Never a problem with when you don't look into the
| headlights and you can see more during what would otherwise
| be a dangerous timing.
| DangerousPie wrote:
| > Also meanwhile, cars are getting super bright headlights
| that actually make it harder to see at night in the city
| (signs and windows will reflect a lot more than people,
| you'll be blinded by oncoming cars...)
|
| Any sources for that? I always read that the only times
| bright (LED) lights blind oncoming traffic is when they are
| improperly installed aftermarket.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I see lights at different heights for SUVs and pickup
| trucks than for cars, I don't see how it matters how the
| light is installed when it's eve level for people in cars.
|
| I can see the light's blinding reflections in other cars'
| rear view mirrors at night when a higher vehicle is behind
| them.
| stfp wrote:
| I'm in the US so as as others pointed out it might be more
| of an issue here (due to higher vehicles - SUVs/trucks -
| taking over).
|
| As a side note, the crazy lights are bad for pedestrians as
| well: they're so bright you sometimes have to look away
| from incoming traffic (esp. if there's a hill involved,
| tilting the vehicles) and they make it harder to estimate
| distances (all you see are the lights, which you can't look
| at, and not the vehicle they're attached to).
| monkeybutton wrote:
| My pet theory is it has to with the size/shape of modern
| cars. Having an older car, I'm sitting lower to the ground
| and am eye level with the headlights with what feels like
| every compact SUV or whatever is popular now.
| evanlivingston wrote:
| This might be more of an issue in the U.S. where car
| illumination standards are different.
|
| At night, nearly every vehicle I come across produced >
| ~2018 has blinding headlights that require me to squint
| drastically.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| I don't drive much since I'm in New York, but I certainly
| feel blinded by oncoming traffic whenever I'm in a car
| outside of the city. SUVs with bright LEDs in oncoming
| traffic make it super hard to see personally. I don't ever
| recall that as a problem when I was younger, but maybe it's
| my aging eyes and more SUVs on the road (I still think it's
| the LEDs though).
| bobbylarrybobby wrote:
| Interesting. Walking around downtown Manhattan at night
| I'm frequently blinded by traffic.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Yeah true, main streets in the city will do that to you
| too, for sure. I live in Brooklyn, so there's far less
| traffic around at night over here.
| dijksterhuis wrote:
| > Is safety for those who must commute late at night a fair
| trade off for lights that are less pleasant on the eyes
|
| If folks are that concerned about their safety at night time
| then they shouldn't live in London. London is _not_ a safe city
| and _never will be_ , no matter what part of it folks live in.
| That's part of the _London-ness_ of living in London tbh.
|
| I'd vote to keep the non-white lights. Adds to the duttiness.
| London needs more dutty after the oligarchs took over central
| and general gentrification silliness.
| alistairSH wrote:
| I'm sure there's a happy middle-ground. I get the impression
| many places are just tossing lowest-bid LEDs into existing
| lamps and calling it good enough.
|
| Somebody needs to drag the local politicians/town council to
| Home Depot (or the UK equivalent) and show them the warm-white
| vs bright-white vs other consumer LED bulbs. And if they still
| choose the bright-white, fire them/vote them out.
| varispeed wrote:
| More likely it works like this - someone "connected" finds
| cheapest possible LEDs one can get away with on alibaba, then
| the tender is setup so that unlikely anyone else will meet
| the criteria, money change hands and residents enjoy poor
| lighting... meanwhile council cries they have no money and
| another apartment is bought in Spain.
| frereubu wrote:
| It's mentioned in passing in the article, but there are very
| serious concerns about the cool temperatures of modern LED street
| lights. This is a great podcast that goes into depth:
| https://www.bigbiology.org/season-3#episode53 One idea that
| particularly struck me was the point that flora and fauna
| generally have a long time to adapt to temperature changes
| (although those at each end of the spectrum will clearly suffer
| more), and large temperature fluctuations have happened in the
| past. But this rapid acceleration of cool streetlights is
| something that hasn't happened in earth's history before, and
| it's unclear how or if organisms will be able to adapt.
| animal_spirits wrote:
| I would encourage anyone here to watch the documentary "Saving
| the Dark" [0]. It discusses light pollution and the pros/cons
| about the new LED lights.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/6fHxNn-FEnc
| TheAdamAndChe wrote:
| If they transition to white LED lights, it will be a big shame.
| White light disrupts our circadian rhythm, our sleep-wake cycle.
| It affects bugs, bats, and all sorts of wildlife. It would be
| much better for everyone if they moved to red street lights.
|
| https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/products/led/red-led-...
| esperent wrote:
| I was totally with you up until the suggestion for red street
| lights. Besides the fact that it would make me feel like I was
| living in a horror film, I have a camping head torch with red
| and white lights (actually I've owned several over the years,
| from pricey to cheap) and the red light setting is close to
| useless. The only time I use it is if I wake up to step out of
| the tent and pee (it's great for not blinding me and waking me
| up) - but for actually doing anything it just doesn't provide
| enough light to see. Factor in that a big reason for street
| lighting is safety, and I don't think red lights will cut it,
| sadly, in spite of your valid points. Yellow lighting seems to
| be the happy median.
| TheAdamAndChe wrote:
| > The only time I use [red light] is if I wake up to step out
| of the tent and pee
|
| > for actually doing anything it just doesn't provide enough
| light to see
|
| It sounds from your comment like red light is good enough for
| collision avoidance. Why else would light be needed from
| street lights? We all carry phones with flashlights nowadays.
| esperent wrote:
| I already mentioned in the parent comment - one of the main
| reasons for street lighting is safety, and a big part of
| that is making people feel less comfortable committing
| crimes because they think they might be recognized. Under
| red light, you are unlikely to be able to make out
| someone's face well enough to describe it later.
| jskrn wrote:
| Light higher than 5000k at night should be a crime. It is
| surgical and has already ruined many streets I used to enjoy
| walking and driving.
| Angostura wrote:
| No mentions of the carbon footprint reduction these LED allow:
|
| https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/research/impact-bartlett/impa...
| In the UK in 2005, there were 8.12 million lighting points on the
| country's streets using approximately 3.14 TWh of electricity,
| meaning CO2 emissions of 1.32 megatons. 6.31 million of these
| lighting points were streetlights.
|
| Bartlett research found that lower levels of brightness are
| required for white streetlights than for yellow sodium vapour
| lights. Switching led to energy savings of 30-40%.
| mattmanser wrote:
| They're not pleasant to live around. They switched ours over a
| few years ago. Couple of things that bug me, they break your
| body out of it's natural rhythms, I find they really wake me up
| when I'm out late. They also mean everyone living near one has
| to go out and buy blackout curtains.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Agreed - the white streetlights are worse overall. They're
| substantially dimmer, making safe driving more difficult and
| dark streets more scary. They are actually _far less_
| efficient than the classic orange sodium vapor lights when
| measured in terms of lumens /watt.
|
| I would guess they're white just because white LED's are now
| the cheapest colour, and whichever company was paid to do a
| study was given criteria to ensure they came out looking
| best. The study probably also took manufacturers claims of
| "100,000 hours lifespan" at face value, despite the fact half
| of them in my street have failed in under 2 years, which
| should have been detected in a small scale trial first...
|
| At least they don't PWM flash...
| Angostura wrote:
| I've had them in our place in the UK for a few years. A bit
| weird for the first few months, but soon got used to them.
|
| The benefits far outweigh the problems and it's one the of
| the more minor changes we are going to have to make to the
| way we live if we re going to have any hope of curtailing
| climate change.
| waterheater wrote:
| >The benefits far outweigh the problems and it's one the of
| the more minor changes we are going to have to make to the
| way we live if we re going to have any hope of curtailing
| climate change.
|
| Surely this position is not absolute? Indeed, the most
| effective way to eliminate human-induced climate change is
| to, well, eliminate those causing it.
|
| In your view, can _any_ attempt to curtail climate change
| be justified? I 'm genuinely curious and mean no
| disrespect, should you feel such.
| spoonjim wrote:
| You can have yellow LEDs as a middle ground.
| evanlivingston wrote:
| I'm sure there's something out there, but something I haven't
| seen is a breakdown of the environmental impact for _producing_
| the LED lighting versus the alternatives. I'd be interested to
| see that.
| germinalphrase wrote:
| Is there anywhere that uses street lighting that is adaptive,
| i.e. after of period of no movement, the lights dim and then fade
| back up as a pedestrian/vehicle approaches?
|
| I'm sure the real answer is [less bright LEDs and force the
| community to adapt to dimmer night lighting] but, you know,
| _safety_
| [deleted]
| jensus wrote:
| the UK's implementation and seemingly general view on lighting
| seems to be very different than to the rest of Europe. For one,
| it is quite minimal, the major highways and public parks are
| barely lit. And the lighting used is so orange and so little
| lumen that it leaves the eye struggling to either adjust for the
| reflection of the moon or the street light, straight up awful. I
| don't mind a balance between preserving traditional feel around
| pubs etc but we definitely need to have public paths adequately
| lit.
| thinkingemote wrote:
| Somewhat related, a few local authorities in the UK do not
| light paths in many of their parks to discourage people using
| them. They say it increases safety. The logic is that it
| dissuades well, lets say, less than wholesome people, from
| congregating at night in the parks and also it dissuades normal
| people from using the places thinking they are safer if they
| are well lit but who might have more risk of bad things
| happening at night.
| ClumsyPilot wrote:
| I feel such attempts at 'logic' just apply people's biases
| and make a mess.
|
| Unless there is solid evidence they should not be withholding
| lighting.
|
| Some folks want to drink outdoors or chillin the park, and
| they will with or eithout light, but like this a lot more
| people will break their nose or leg
| varispeed wrote:
| The current lights are great, they have their charm.
| Unfortunately councils just wait to have an excuse to spend our
| money (ideally on affiliated companies) on any vanity project
| they can get their hands on and then hike the tax.
| wayanon wrote:
| I wonder if subsidised door cameras (and dashcams while we're at
| it) would also reduce crime.
|
| So sad for Sarah's family and friends!
| globular-toast wrote:
| I wish we could just stop using street lights or at least turn
| them down significantly. I've done a lot of walking at night and
| a lot of the time you can see just fine. On darker nights (no
| moon) you can simply carry a torch. There's simply no need to
| floodlight entire streets all night long.
|
| There is a lot of research into the effects of light on sleep
| quality and it's bad. I have to put significant effort into
| blocking out street lights in my bedroom which means using
| blackout curtains even in winter. It's also bad for birds and
| other wildlife which rely on lighting to determine the time of
| day. I used to live on a street which turned the lights off
| completely at about midnight and it was so much better.
| tastyfreeze wrote:
| A few years ago my local government installed lighting over 14
| miles of highway only because they could get federal funding to
| do so. There were 0 light related accidents and 0 crimes that
| would not have occurred without lighting. Now we get the
| privilege of some of our taxes going to maintain the lighting
| and pay the electric bill.
|
| Yes, I am bitter. A decision like that should be backed by
| evidence that it will actually improve something.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| For context, a woman was kidnapped off the street and murdered
| fairly early in the evening in an area that's considered pretty
| quiet and safe in London recently.
| c7DJTLrn wrote:
| I don't see the relevance. Criminals aren't cave bats -
| they're not going to reconsider an act because there's a
| street light. They'll just move on to another opportunity or
| do it anyway.
|
| I echo globular-toast's complaints because I have a bright
| LED street lamp right outside my window which prevents me
| from sleeping unless I close my curtains, meaning I can't
| wake up to natural light in the morning.
|
| Street lighting is excessive and unnecessary and unless
| there's a study that says otherwise, I doubt it has any
| impact on crime.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| The relevance is that it is politically difficult,
| especially currently, to not want street lighting. Evidence
| isn't so relevant and arguably the psychological benefits
| to the citizenry are worth the costs.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| According to the ONS, more violent crimes happen at night
| than during the day, so lighting does have a measurable
| effect on crime.
| c7DJTLrn wrote:
| The conclusion that lighting _itself_ is causing that
| effect cannot be drawn from that information. There could
| be a number of other factors for why violent crimes
| happen at night.
| Veen wrote:
| Is there any reason to think different lighting would have
| prevented Sarah Everard's murder?
| patall wrote:
| That's most likely an age thing. I feel the same as you but
| then my grandma complains about those same dark lights that I
| find too bright. I also remember finding nights even brighter
| as a kid.
| Mauricebranagh wrote:
| Not everyone has 20/20 vison and may well have poor night
| vison.
| 1auralynn wrote:
| I agree, but I think the issue is that LOTS of people just
| don't have good night vision. I have excellent night vision,
| and I feel safest with low lighting because it allows me to
| retain my night vision to see into unlit corners etc. I also
| don't feel as much "on display". But yeah, for a significant
| minority of people who have poor vision, the brighter the
| better, because they just can't see in the dark normally.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Then bring a torch. The torch will help you see into dark
| corners too. You wouldn't drive without lights. I'm not sure
| why people walk around without one.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| Plenty of people feel unsafe walking around poorly lit parts of
| a city at night.
| dean177 wrote:
| The problem isn't the lighting. Its the city.
| frereubu wrote:
| One of those is a lot easier to remedy than the other.
| nathell wrote:
| This reminded me of Theydon Bois, a village just off Greater
| London on the Central Line. From Wikipedia:
|
| > A notable characteristic of the village is its almost complete
| absence of street lighting. Villagers have consistently voted
| against the installation of such lighting for decades, fearing
| that it would damage the traditional village ambience and require
| a rise in council tax. Only the approach to the tube station
| features a small number of lampposts.
| frabbit wrote:
| Sounds like heaven to me. I really dislike the absence of dark.
| Especially during the summer when it is hot and I would like to
| increase airflow by opening up the windows.
|
| The claim, in favor of such widespread lighting, is that it
| makes something "safer", but the evidence seems weak on that:
|
| https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/11/02/what-...
| frabbit wrote:
| I came across this1 paper which seems to claim that the
| provision of 600,000 lumen "lighting towers" in a public
| housing project reduces crime. It may be true, but the same
| could probably said for plans of unleashing packs of wild
| hyaenas during the night.
|
| All a bit too Panopticon for me.
|
| 1. https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/attachments/e95d751f7d91d0b
| cf...
| rwmj wrote:
| It's the same in the village where we live. Everyone carries a
| torch (or in my case one of those pen-sized maglites). It may
| not be suitable for central London, but the system seems to
| work fine round here.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| Theydon is a funny old place. Good spot to enter the forest
| though.
| coding123 wrote:
| Meanwhile the blackout curtain industry is boooooming.
| dan-robertson wrote:
| Does this author want the minimum required amount of light
| pointing down and trying to avoid light pollution or do they want
| lots of lights hiding in bushes pointing up at building walls? It
| seems they change their mind part-way through the article.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-03-18 23:01 UTC)