[HN Gopher] Facebook's GDPR consent bypass reaches Austrian Supr...
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       Facebook's GDPR consent bypass reaches Austrian Supreme Court
        
       Author : input_sh
       Score  : 246 points
       Date   : 2021-03-15 11:17 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (noyb.eu)
 (TXT) w3m dump (noyb.eu)
        
       | roel_v wrote:
       | In this context, for people in the Netherlands - there is a
       | 'class action' (well not really, we don't have those in the same
       | way as in the US, but functionally equivalent) lawsuit against
       | Facebook in order to get monetary compensation from Facebook for
       | the time(s) they violated privacy laws. The first hearing will be
       | on the 1st of April. Of course Facebook has been trying to delay
       | this case, e.g. by claiming Dutch users should have asked for
       | redress in Irish courts.
       | 
       | If you want to join (for free), see
       | https://www.consumentenbond.nl/acties/facebook/aanmelden .
       | 
       | Even if I only ever get a single euro from that case, that euro
       | will feel better than making 1000's from regular work, and if
       | it's ever paid out, I'll take my children out to dinner from it
       | (I suppose I'll have to chip in the difference myself so that we
       | won't have to split one item off the McD's dollar menu...) to
       | celebrate that not all hope is lost.
        
         | Sander_Marechal wrote:
         | First time I have heard of this. I joined, thanks!
        
         | wdb wrote:
         | This news for me! Thank you for sharing :)
        
       | ballenf wrote:
       | FB's move strikes me as similar to Germany's pre-WWII invasions.
       | Will take incredible popular, political will across the world to
       | stand up to and won't come cheap to the countries that do it. But
       | the cost of not doing it should be obvious in this framework.
       | 
       | The whole issue is more akin to a treaty negotiation than a
       | criminal law enforcement. The Austrian law side of things is just
       | one of the tools available to exert power on FB. FB has their own
       | levers to pull like they demonstrated in Australia.
       | 
       | To think that this issue will be decided anything like a normal
       | criminal case that just comes down to an interpretation of law
       | and fact will cause extreme cognitive dissonance.
        
         | osobo wrote:
         | What is the cost to the EU of standing up to FB? Why is this an
         | invasion? How is the Australian clash of news monopolies
         | remotely like Austria upholding the law? How is this criminal
         | law enforcement?
         | 
         | You're not making much sense to me, tbh.
        
         | judge2020 wrote:
         | You're going to have a hard time comparing anything that
         | doesn't involve death to the bad deeds of WWII Germany.
        
       | varispeed wrote:
       | I was not aware that there is actually something being done
       | against some of the giants who think they stand above the law.
       | It's going to be a test whether GDPR is worth its salt. If it can
       | be bypassed by that simple T&C trick, then it's just has been
       | another expensive waste of time. I have a feeling they will allow
       | that as otherwise Facebook's predatory business model will make
       | no sense until they find a way to trick users into consent. Given
       | that people are just clicking the boxes without reading now, this
       | could work...
        
         | wongarsu wrote:
         | > I have a feeling they will allow that as otherwise Facebook's
         | predatory business model will make no sense until they find a
         | way to trick users into consent
         | 
         | Luckily European courts don't really give a damn about Facebook
         | or their business model.
         | 
         | It's not that European courts never play favorites with large
         | companies, but Facebook isn't really known for paying a lot of
         | taxes here and doesn't have many employees in Europe (at least
         | an order of magnitude less than e.g. Volkswagen). Facebook is
         | seen as a foreign company that doesn't know how to play by the
         | rules, and was a major motivation for creating the GDPR in the
         | first place.
        
           | EastSmith wrote:
           | I am wondering if a recent Apple announcement of a 1 bln
           | investment in a Berlin tech-hub is so Apple can have a
           | friendlier relationship with EU law.
        
         | neskiredk wrote:
         | Indeed, this will be important going forward. Living in EU,
         | with local laws (denmark) being what they are. I hope the
         | conclusion of this suit, will be similar to our laws that
         | state: Any contract signed, that through its terms, makes you
         | relinquish your state-afforded rights. Is by definition void.
         | 
         | Example of a void contract: When Buying a used car, Salesmen
         | makes you sign a contract: "No warranty nor cancelation of
         | contract possible after purchase".
        
           | pfortuny wrote:
           | Mmhhh, is it _so strong_?
           | 
           | I guess what is void is that specific clause. Otherwise, any
           | vendor could include a clause saying "you relinquish some
           | rights" just in the middle of the text and, _after the fact_
           | , claim that the contract was void and require you to return
           | an item (say, a car).
           | 
           | So, I guess you mean that specific clause?
        
             | tovej wrote:
             | I believe this is how it typicaly works. At least the few
             | laws I've read (Finnish law) voids the offending clauses,
             | not the entire contract.
        
             | bildung wrote:
             | In German law that would, as a default, actually make the
             | whole contract void, yes. Many contracts therefore contain
             | a clause that hedges against that situation (i.e. something
             | like "if one or more of these items is found void, the rest
             | still applies")
        
               | majewsky wrote:
               | The legal term for this is "severability clause":
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Severability
               | ("salvatorische Klausel" in German)
        
               | jdmichal wrote:
               | Specifically, the idea of a voided clause voiding the
               | entire contract is sometimes a _feature_ -- severability
               | is not always desired. A simplistic example would be a
               | contract with two clauses, one specifying that A sends B
               | widgets, and the other specifying that B sends A money.
               | You would not want those to clauses to be severable.
        
         | krsdcbl wrote:
         | This specific case has a lot to do with Max Schrems & noyb
         | pressing the issue to be litigated, he's a very engaged
         | activist for privacy
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems
        
           | Nicksil wrote:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Schrems
        
         | dgellow wrote:
         | Look at https://www.enforcementtracker.com/.
         | 
         | Sort by fines desc :)
        
           | skinkestek wrote:
           | Wonderful, thanks!
           | 
           | Now we are talking :-)
        
           | tremon wrote:
           | Some companies will never learn. Search for Vodafone, for
           | example.
        
           | 4ad wrote:
           | A drop in the ocean.
        
             | alkonaut wrote:
             | Indeed. The regulation allows for pretty stiff fines I
             | believe, so with fines this small for companies whose
             | entire business model is persanal data (e.g. Google and
             | Facebook but not an airline or retail chain) the math
             | should be "How large should the fine be in order for it to
             | cost MORE for this company, than actually complying".
             | 
             | Complying with the GDPR isn't "free". It's like these
             | companies belive "oh we can't possibly comply with that
             | because it would hurt our bottom line!".
        
               | dgellow wrote:
               | Give it some time. H&M got a EUR35mio fine in November
               | 2020 for a document from 2014 stored in a network drive
               | that contained employees personal data. If you do not
               | comply, the more you wait the more risky that becomes.
        
           | TedDoesntTalk wrote:
           | Do you know what is done with the money from these fines?
           | Does it merely fund the enforcement teams (seems excessive),
           | or is it put into some EU "general fund"?
        
             | zaarn wrote:
             | Generally they go into the coffers of the treasury of the
             | country that issued the fine. This may be further directed
             | to the EU but probably not.
        
             | gampleman wrote:
             | FB has a global revenue of ~$86B. Of which 4% is $3.44B.
             | That would make a real mark on the budgets of the poorer
             | half of EU countries.
             | 
             | I wonder why there aren't more enforcement actions...
        
               | varispeed wrote:
               | It's a simple math - how many people are responsible for
               | processing such case? 10-100? So let's say it is 100
               | people. You only need like 100,000,000 EUR to make it go
               | away by giving each one a 1M. Even if those people go for
               | early retirement and new staff takes on the case, you can
               | repeat this. Even if it happens every year you can do it
               | for 34 years before the money exceeds the potential fine
               | and meanwhile you'll make much more money as it gets
               | pushed back. In reality you probably need to buy top 5-10
               | people so they can keep pushing it back while being set
               | for life.
        
               | judge2020 wrote:
               | This doesn't answer the question "does the money just sit
               | in an escrow account forever or is it eventually spent
               | somehow?"
        
         | marmaduke wrote:
         | Indeed. Working in research with human data, we spend a ton of
         | time taking GDPR into account and it would be a huge
         | disappointment to see a corp bypass that for profit when we for
         | non profit research cannot.
        
         | tyfon wrote:
         | You can't really trick them into consenting either as the law
         | specifies you need a informed consent. Just having a flag in
         | the database that the user ticked without knowing what they
         | agreed to does not qualify.
        
           | varispeed wrote:
           | I am referring to the fact that people click on the consent
           | boxes without reading what they are agreeing to. I am not
           | sure if informed consent is even possible at this stage. You
           | can put all the details before the user and you will never
           | know they read it. Maybe you could do a test to see if user
           | read, memorised and understood, but still they can just click
           | answers until it goes away.
        
         | s_dev wrote:
         | I have a feeling that GDPR is actually mostly about giving
         | tools to reign in the tech giants rather than stomping on the
         | little guys.
        
           | blackbear_ wrote:
           | Your feeling is wrong. As linked in another comment, [1] is a
           | list of GDPR fines. As you can see, plenty of non tech giants
           | in there.
           | 
           | [1] https://www.enforcementtracker.com/
        
             | fatnoah wrote:
             | A fun fact is that no business likes additional regulatory
             | overhead and risk, but larger companies are much more able
             | to take on the costs associated with compliance.
        
           | Jenk wrote:
           | So far there is no suggestion of an ulterior motive. GDPR is
           | just there to protect the privacy of EU citizens and that's
           | that.
        
             | s_dev wrote:
             | >GDPR is just there to protect the privacy of EU citizens
             | and that's that.
             | 
             | From what exactly? You'll see where I was going when you
             | try to answer that simple question.
             | 
             | Because your answer will be -- tech giants.
        
               | Jenk wrote:
               | No, the answer is "Anyone infringes on those rights."
               | 
               | It just so happens that some "Tech Giants" fit into that
               | category.
        
               | s_dev wrote:
               | >No, the answer is "Anyone infringes on those rights."
               | 
               | Nope a small American firm can infringe those rights and
               | face zero consequences. A US Multinational with
               | operations in Europe can't.
               | 
               | So implicitly -- bigger companies are targeted as they
               | have more of a global footprint.
        
               | Jenk wrote:
               | Nope.
               | 
               | https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/
        
               | s_dev wrote:
               | Since you can't read your own link:
               | 
               | >The second exception is for organizations with fewer
               | than 250 employees. Small- and medium-sized enterprises
               | (SMEs) are not totally exempt from the GDPR, but the
               | regulation does free them from record-keeping obligations
               | in most cases (see Article 30.5).
        
               | alkonaut wrote:
               | From having their information processed/sold without
               | their consent. There is nothing implicit in the
               | regulation that targets "tech giants".
        
               | s_dev wrote:
               | Nothing explicit* in the regulation -- but -- it IS the
               | tech giants that egregiously guilty of:
               | 
               | >From having their information processed/sold without
               | their consent.
               | 
               | The targeting of tech giants is implicit here.
        
               | tremon wrote:
               | Sure. That must be why the first fines were levied at a
               | restaurant, a hospital and a bank.
        
               | alkonaut wrote:
               | Yes some of the tech giants are guilty of this. And some
               | aren't. And also some non-giants are guilty of this. And
               | some non-giants aren't. This is a possible kick in the
               | nuts for Facebook and Google. It's not so much for Apple
               | or Netflix, for example.
               | 
               | I don't think it's fair to make the grouping "tech giants
               | " here. It's the "ad-giants". It's the companies whose
               | business model is personal information. It's a small
               | subset of the tech giants. In fact, much smaller adtech
               | companies probably have a lot more to lose from GDPR than
               | fb and google have.
               | 
               | Facebook, unlike a lot of online services, would still be
               | able to target ads just because they know what people
               | like without using any information people haven't
               | consented to. A random news website on the other hand has
               | to start showing me (a man) ads for women's clothing
               | because news sites can't be as sure about my gender (or
               | taste in fashion) as facebook is. So as weith so many
               | things, I think the GDPR is just serving to reinforce the
               | position of facebook, not the other way around.
        
       | SaltySolomon wrote:
       | Just a nit pick, its not at the supreme court, its at the highest
       | court (Oberster Gerichtshof), the court below the supreme court,
       | the Verfassungsgerichtshof.
       | 
       | Its confusing, I know.
        
         | datenhorst wrote:
         | That's patently false. The Austrian judiciary is divided into
         | general courts and courts of public law. The "Oberster
         | Gerichtshof" is not "below" the supreme court, it's the highest
         | court of a different branch.
        
       | chris_wot wrote:
       | Facebook has a "duty to provide personalized advertisement". How
       | heroic!
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | _Facebook has a "duty to provide personalized advertisement".
         | How heroic!_
         | 
         | Perhaps the people at Facebook believe the oft-repeated HN meme
         | about "Companies are required by law to maximize profit for
         | shareholders!"
         | 
         | The tech bubble is like politics: If you tell a lie enough
         | times, it becomes the truth.
        
         | murph-almighty wrote:
         | "duty to irritatingly and creepily pester you to buy things"
        
         | Barrin92 wrote:
         | yeah had to laugh at that one too. I can only imagine the ad
         | guys at Facebook show up like soldiers on the Galactica
         | everyday and Zuckerberg gives a 'so say we all speech' to get
         | us our daily dose of advertisements
        
       | jacquesm wrote:
       | It's very simple: you can not contract out of the law. So,
       | assuming murder is illegal where you live, I can't contract you
       | to murder me, even if I 100% agree that you should murder me and
       | I pay you for it.
        
         | vmception wrote:
         | I love how people always create legal analogies that are the
         | least relevant comparison to re-enforce a point that is not
         | even universally true.
        
       | colejohnson66 wrote:
       | > Facebook now argues that it has a "duty to provide personalized
       | advertisement" to the users, therefore, it does not need the
       | user's consent to process his or her personal data.
       | 
       | That's a bold move. Very user hostile. If users want personalized
       | ads, then let them opt in.
        
         | that_guy_iain wrote:
         | > If users want personalized ads, then let them opt in.
         | 
         | Let's be honest, if you're using Facebook you've basically
         | agreed to personalised ads on some level. We all know their
         | business model. Try convincing random joe that Facebook don't
         | read their messages for ad purposes and you'll probably find
         | most won't believe you.
         | 
         | With that being said, Facebook also knows if their users are
         | given a choice most will choose not to get personalised ads.
         | That's why they fight so hard againist any privacy move.
        
           | reaperducer wrote:
           | _if you 're using Facebook you've basically agreed to
           | personalised ads on some level_
           | 
           | You don't have to join Facebook to be part of its data
           | collection octopus.
        
           | cratermoon wrote:
           | > if you're using Facebook you've basically agreed to
           | personalised ads on some level
           | 
           | Yes, but no. Someone who joined Facebook in 2007 would have
           | had very different expectations than someone joining in 2017.
           | And there's a difference between "sure, send me personalized
           | ads" and "sell everything you know about to me malicious
           | actors"
        
           | MaxBarraclough wrote:
           | > if you're using Facebook you've basically agreed to
           | personalised ads on some level
           | 
           | The GDPR quite explicitly rejects the idea that this
           | constitutes consent.
        
             | that_guy_iain wrote:
             | Actually, I believe it explictly includes this idea of
             | consent. For example, they state that when you use a cart
             | system you consent to the cookie because you knew it would
             | be needed.
             | 
             | But my point was more about the basic idea that people know
             | Facebook is data mining them and use it anyways therefore
             | the idea that you haven't opt'd into it is a bit silly. I
             | wasn't talking about the legal point of view.
        
               | MaxBarraclough wrote:
               | _Consent requires a positive opt-in_ [0] but there are
               | conditions that permit use of cookies without consent
               | [1]. It seems clear to me that it was written with the
               | intent of excluding advertising cookies while allowing
               | shopping baskets to work even without consent, as you
               | say. Facebook is contesting that its use of cookies falls
               | under the _processing is necessary for a contract you
               | have with the individual_ category, and so doesn 't
               | require consent. Of course, if that's the case, the GDPR
               | is truly toothless regarding tracking cookies.
               | 
               | > my point was more about the basic idea that people know
               | Facebook is data mining them and use it anyways therefore
               | the idea that you haven't opt'd into it is a bit silly
               | 
               | Another relevant point here is that we seem to keep
               | focusing on cookies, but that's just a small part of the
               | equation.
               | 
               | [0] https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-
               | protectio...
               | 
               | [1] https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-
               | protectio...
        
         | rzzzt wrote:
         | Object to legitimate interest! ...I find cookie dialogs that
         | have an on/off switch _and_ such a button very confusing, but
         | it sounds like it was created for these kind of situations.
         | IANAL.
        
           | mnw21cam wrote:
           | No, they were created either out of a complete
           | misunderstanding of the law, or as a way to try and weasel-
           | word into being able to retain the information even when you
           | do not consent. It's illegal.
           | 
           | Either you have a legitimate interest in the data (by which I
           | mean you have to use the data in order to do what the user
           | explicitly asked you to do), at which point you can process
           | the data without asking for consent, or you don't, at which
           | point you must ask for consent, and you must not
           | alter/degrade the user experience if you do not get it.
        
             | oytis wrote:
             | Legitimate interest is not necessarily what the user wants
             | you to do. Storing data e.g. for preventing fraud is also a
             | kind of legitimate interest.
             | 
             | As a non-legal person I in all honesty can't understand why
             | e.g. storing person's credit score is legitimate while
             | storing their advertising profile isn't.
        
           | amelius wrote:
           | Why can't we have a fixed preference in the browser? (The do-
           | not-track header field failed, but it still seems like the
           | best solution)
        
         | alkonaut wrote:
         | I don't mind targeted ads, I mind targeting based on
         | information I haven't explicitly given. I understand that since
         | I joined a group for local mountainbikers, which is tagged that
         | it is about "cycling", I can see ads for mountainbiking. They
         | infer my interests from information I have given (age, groups,
         | ...). That's fair game.
         | 
         | I do NOT want to see a mountainbike ad, ever, because I browsed
         | a random retailer for mountainbikes, or wrote a message about a
         | mountainbike to a friend on messenger, or because a friend of a
         | friend bought a bike on fb marketplace etc etc.
        
           | colejohnson66 wrote:
           | Yes. I agree. I like targeted ads. Ads on electronic
           | engineering or computer science are nice because I actually
           | enjoy those things. But just because I looked at something as
           | a possible present for someone doesn't mean I want ads for
           | weeks.
           | 
           | Facebook goes really far on this. It seems even pausing your
           | scrolling for a few seconds more than usual is enough for
           | them to think I'm interesting. I'm not. I'm just trying to
           | figure out if I want to read this post or not.
        
       | varispeed wrote:
       | Ok one more thing - what about the Facebook customers who are
       | blissfully ignorant to what's going on and they buy advertising
       | knowing about privacy abuse? I think the customers should also be
       | fined as they benefit just as Facebook benefits.
        
         | atleta wrote:
         | They might act unethically, but legally it's not their
         | responsibility. They may not have the means to figure out
         | whether FB is obeying the laws (after all, this is what the
         | court is trying to figure out). They also may or may not have
         | another viable choice.
         | 
         | They can indeed _expect_ facebook to act legally.
        
           | varispeed wrote:
           | Isn't what any accomplice would be saying? "I didn't know...
           | I tought they are okay" despite all the fuss in the media...
           | they still went for it.
        
         | robertlagrant wrote:
         | > I think the customers should also be fined as they benefit
         | just as Facebook benefits.
         | 
         | This is legal matter, not a witch hunt.
        
           | varispeed wrote:
           | A lot of people have been using Facebook ads so it is
           | understandable that this direction will have a massive
           | pushback from anyone who used them. But that means Facebook
           | becomes a "fall guy" rather than justice being served.
        
       | atleta wrote:
       | Now this is gonna be expensive. And it very much shows why those
       | stupid GDPR consent popups were worth it. (Let me quickly add
       | that I do not like them either, but I'm fully aware that the UX
       | for most of those are indeed the result of the companies
       | operating the websites trying to side-step GDPR and force you
       | into acceptance...)
        
       | lanevorockz wrote:
       | Don't put your hopes on Supreme Courts, they don't tend to really
       | care about individual rights. It's all about politics and
       | perceived public opinion. They just want to keep their power and
       | fat salaries.
        
       | oytis wrote:
       | Framing targeted ads as contractual obligations to the user is
       | pretty absurd, but I wonder if explicitly stating that being
       | tracked is user's payment for the service can work. I've seen a
       | couple of news websites doing that - you have to either agree to
       | be tracked or subscribe to the paid plan.
        
         | elliekelly wrote:
         | > I've seen a couple of news websites doing that - you have to
         | either agree to be tracked or subscribe to the paid plan.
         | 
         | Do you have to agree to be tracked? Or agree to be served ads?
         | Because there are plenty of paid services where you're promised
         | no ads (and indeed aren't served any ads) and yet are tracked
         | to the same extent as the free users. I don't think I've come
         | across any services that allow you to pay not to be tracked.
         | Only those that allow you to pay to avoid ads. It's frustrating
         | because it's not the ads I have a problem with - it's the
         | stalking.
        
           | oytis wrote:
           | I've just checked German zeit.de. They promise less ads and
           | no tracking to paid users. Not sure how much do they stick to
           | this promise.
        
       | chmod775 wrote:
       | Ah yes. The yearly reminder to companies that TOS still don't
       | supersede EU law and aren't a magical way to weasel out of
       | regulation.
       | 
       | It's hard to sign away some consumer protections even with an
       | actual, physical, signature - what makes companies think some
       | legal mumbo jumbo that isn't worth its bytes on a drive will
       | somehow do?
       | 
       | Weaseling around consumer protections in their TOS to give
       | Facebook a blank check to fuck over consumers? Yeah courts will
       | just love that one.
        
         | dahfizz wrote:
         | For companies as large as Facebook, it must be economical to
         | "bet" a relatively small sum of money on the long shot that
         | they win the case.
        
           | matsemann wrote:
           | That's what the GDPR tries to solve by not having a fixed
           | amount for the fines, but allowing them to go upwards of 2%
           | of revenue.
        
             | reaperducer wrote:
             | _allowing them to go upwards of 2% of revenue._
             | 
             | When it's a _minimum_ of 25% of revenue, the companies will
             | take notice.
             | 
             | Until then, it's just factored in like pencils and laptops
             | and coffee: just another cost of doing business.
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | Nextgrid wrote:
             | And this has yet to be enforced despite thousands of
             | companies openly breaching it in bad faith.
        
               | ben_w wrote:
               | I remember many people on Hacker News being appalled that
               | it could go as high as 2% of global revenue, and that
               | others here pointed out that 2% global revenue was merely
               | the maximum, and that most fines -- especially the
               | initial ones or for relatively minor breaches -- would be
               | much lower.
        
             | tyfon wrote:
             | For severe breaches the maximum is actually EUR20 million
             | or 4% of global revenue [1] whichever is higher.
             | 
             | For smaller breaches it is 2%.
             | 
             | [1] https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/fines-penalties/
        
         | cratermoon wrote:
         | I still don't understand how a long TOS with a "click here to
         | agree" passes legal muster. If I said here, "By reading this
         | comment you agree I have a right to come into your house and
         | eat all your food", any attempt I made to enforce that would be
         | laughed out of court.
        
           | neon_electro wrote:
           | I don't think anyone would argue that it does pass legal
           | muster; the problem is that these entities can get away with
           | their behavior without appropriate enforcement for enough
           | time that they are able to profit from their behaviors; the
           | average contract writer seeking to eat all your food would
           | not have enough time to profit from their contract before you
           | would be able to enforce the law on them.
        
             | KSteffensen wrote:
             | > I don't think anyone would argue that it does pass legal
             | muster
             | 
             | As I read the article two lower courts in Austria do think
             | the argument passes legal muster:
             | 
             | > The two lower Courts in Austria however took the view
             | that is solely in Facebook's discretion to claim a term to
             | be a "contract" or "consent". Consequently they saw no
             | issue with Facebook's bypass, but also held that the matter
             | needs clarification by the Supreme Courts.
             | 
             | Am I misunderstanding something?
        
         | ocdtrekkie wrote:
         | This will continue until the consequences ramp up to adequate
         | levels. If the company is not threatening to leave the country
         | over the law and paying "journalists" like Mike Masnick to
         | complain about the law destroying the Internet as we know it,
         | your law is too weak.
        
         | josefx wrote:
         | > what makes companies think some legal mumbo jumbo that isn't
         | worth its bytes on a drive will somehow do?
         | 
         | While they may "think" that officially I do not believe they do
         | internally. Fact: Enforcement takes years. Fact: The fines are
         | often tiny. Fact: They make billions while this goes through
         | court. Conclusion: They have every bit of motivation to act
         | dumb while raking in the money.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | RobertKerans wrote:
           | ...all the while, giving more time for lobbyists to harangue
           | ministers for relaxation/rescinding of the regulations and
           | (maybe this is just my cynicism causing me to see ghosts but)
           | to push PR that is explicitly anti-regs
        
           | posterboy wrote:
           | So, letting them keep the earning is like letting a drug
           | dealer keep the illicitly obtained earning--a criminal
           | liability.
        
           | Panino wrote:
           | Yep. The whole thing reminds me of professional wrestling,
           | with one person blatantly cheating, the entire public
           | watching it happen, as the "referee" is pretending to be
           | distracted by something else. So the public is going crazy,
           | screaming at the ref to _look over there_ , all agreeing to
           | pretend the match isn't a scripted act performed by a single
           | party.
           | 
           | And the entire public just stays, acting like they don't have
           | something better to do.
        
             | Terretta wrote:
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayfabe
        
         | deepstack wrote:
         | Weaseling around consumer protections indeed. Seems like
         | something corporation do often. Check out this documentary it
         | is quite insightful (e.g. The U.S. Chamber of Commerce (not a
         | United States government agency, but a lobbying group for
         | businesses)
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Coffee_(film)
        
         | 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
         | "... what makes companies think some legal mumbo jumbo that
         | isn't worth its bytes on a drive will somehow do?"
         | 
         | Because in most cases it does (because the mumbo jumbo is never
         | challenged). Users generally do not attempt to enforce their
         | protections under the law against software or so-called "tech"
         | companies. Unenforceable terms in EULAs and TOS can go
         | unchallenged for decades. Schrems seems to be one of the very
         | few users who is actually filing complaints.
         | 
         | This case is a reminder that the user is not the customer.
         | According to this summary, Facebook is arguing it has a duty
         | under contract to its customers (advertisers) and that provides
         | Facebook with an exemption under the GDPR from having to
         | provide its users with a choice whether to consent. Customers
         | have contractual rights they can enforce against Facebook.
         | Generally, users do not. That is intentional on the part of
         | Facebook.
        
         | tyfon wrote:
         | Yep, In Norway too there is a specific law that say consumers
         | can't negotiate a worse deal than the actual consumer
         | protection laws. This includes warranty and repairs too.
         | 
         | I guess EU have something similar since we adopt a lot of the
         | laws from the directives.
        
           | novok wrote:
           | Thats pretty standard in contract law in general. Ex: you
           | cannot sign yourself into slavery, since slavery is illegal.
           | Cant agree to work under min wage, etc
        
           | ivanhoe wrote:
           | AFAIK the laws dealing with a protection of rights almost
           | always have such instruments implemented. You can't give up
           | on the rights prescribed to you by the law as they're
           | considered to constitute the bare minimum that's guaranteed
           | to everyone.
        
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