[HN Gopher] Refund of pre-installed Windows: Lenovo must pay 20k...
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Refund of pre-installed Windows: Lenovo must pay 20k euros in
damages
Author : rendx
Score : 157 points
Date : 2021-03-14 16:20 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (fsfe.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (fsfe.org)
| m463 wrote:
| OEMs make significant money pre-installing windows on their
| machines.
|
| A friend who worked at one OEM said it would cost $50 more to
| ship a machine with linux vs windows.
|
| Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including telemetry -
| long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the time of sale, and
| afterwards.
|
| Good job (and good fun) to this tenacious person. Glad for the
| outcome in his (and our) favor.
| cesarb wrote:
| > OEMs make significant money pre-installing windows on their
| machines.
|
| Then why is it that, whenever I see a choice, the Linux option
| is always cheaper?
|
| For instance, I just went do Dell's site and randomly selected
| a laptop (https://www.dell.com/pt-br/work/shop/isv-
| workstations-certif...). The default operating system option is
| "Windows 10 Pro 64bit Brazil Portuguese"; if instead I select
| the "Ubuntu Linux 18.04" option, the price gets R$ 686,00 lower
| (and that's before removing the "Dell Endpoint Security"
| antivirus option, which decreases the price by another R$
| 240,00).
| wernercd wrote:
| Linux doesn't have economics of scale, placement or
| subsidies... You're paying what Microsoft subsidizes to
| install windows, office, etc.
|
| https://www.techjunkie.com/why-would-a-linux-laptop-be-
| more-...
|
| > Bloatware Saves You Money > Because those companies who
| make those titles pay fees to have that software pre-
| installed on your new computer. They see that new desktop as
| a big billboard, waiting to be populated. And, boy do they
| load it up! > This Ubuntu installation doesn't come with any
| bloatware, Dell isn't making the kick-back, hence it
| increases cost.
|
| > Other Costs > But, let's not forget that these companies
| are USED to Windows. All of their internal processes are
| based around Windows systems. All their support personel are
| trained in Windows. > So, smaller supply and a dedicated
| demand equals higher cost. Basic economics. > Not to mention
| the additional cost of support staff for these laptops, who
| need to be trained in an entirely different environment
| m463 wrote:
| "This Ubuntu installation doesn't come with any bloatware"
|
| Actually sorry, this is not accurate. Canonical shipped
| Ubuntu with an Amazon search app, does plenty of telemetry,
| and forces updates. Unless you are very technically
| proficient it is very hard to disable all of it. (I remove
| or neutralize motd, appport, snapd, ubuntu-report,
| unattended-upgrades, ubuntu-advantage, whoopsie and more)
| ekianjo wrote:
| > does plenty of telemetry
|
| Oh wait until you see how much Windows does of it. Its
| always about how much.
| michaelmrose wrote:
| Ubuntu came with a controversial search lens that
| resulted in local searches returning web results from
| amazon that were supposed to be anonymized in 2012 and
| discontinued this stupid idea in 2014.
|
| > does plenty of telemetry,
|
| The telemetry that is sent on install does ask your
| permission to share and shares very innocuous data to
| boot
|
| >The data includes information about your PC's hardware,
| including the manufacturer, BIOS version, and the model
| of your CPU. It also includes information about your
| software, such as the version of Ubuntu you installed,
| your chosen desktop environment, whether you're using the
| Xorg or Wayland display server, and the options you chose
| while installing Ubuntu. Other information, such as your
| time zone, information about your partitions, and your
| display's resolution is also sent.
|
| The other major source of leaks is the crash reporting
| tool which . Note that with open source software you
| don't have to trust the vendor you can actually see the
| source to the the tools that are communicating and
| convince yourself that they are serving legitimate needs
| that don't violate your privacy.
|
| > forces updates
|
| You can absolutely control updates of normal packages.
| Snap is indeed defective in that regard but nothing is
| forcing you to use it.
|
| > Unless you are very technically proficient it is very
| hard to disable all of it
|
| Packages are removable in band with the same tools used
| to manage all packages on the system. This isn't an
| example of extreme competence its basic understanding of
| the tools needed to use the system.
|
| > motd
|
| Not a data leak
|
| > snap
|
| a shitty tool but not one that harms your privacy or
| inherently does anything to you by existing just don't
| install snaps.
|
| > ubuntu-report
|
| This is the tool that reports basic info about your
| system after asking you once on initial install removing
| it... does nothing. If you don't want crash reporting its
| a checkbox in settings.
|
| > ubuntu-advantage
|
| This is something you have to sign up for having the
| package on your system isn't leaking your data
|
| > Apport
|
| This is disabled by default in stable releases. To
| disable sudo systemctl disable apport.service like every
| other service this is once again basic usage. It also
| doesn't leak your info without you allowing it even if
| enabled. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Apport
| m463 wrote:
| I think you should try this:
|
| - set up a ubuntu system
|
| - see what traffic it generates
|
| - get it to stop
|
| You will get pretty proficient at how apt and systemd
| work, especially after a couple release cycles and things
| get re-activated, re-enabled or re-installed.
| ahepp wrote:
| Part of why I prefer debian
| onei wrote:
| Unattended upgrades is generally a good thing in my
| experience. It's quick and easy security patching. For
| Ubuntu, it's a bit more than that because they don't
| split the main and security repos, but on Debian it's one
| of my favourite features.
| cmeacham98 wrote:
| But the point is that the linux laptop in GP's example was
| _cheaper_ (and my personal experience suggests this is a
| trend).
|
| So assuming what you posted is true, why would companies
| offer a discount for the linux version?
| rhacker wrote:
| I wonder if they would have won the lawsuit if they simply
| brought this up - We're happy to refund you the price of the
| laptop if Windows was not pre-installed and with all of the
| other bundled software: Please pay us $50.
|
| It kinda makes sense to just buy the laptop with windows and
| then flatten and re-install linux.
| Hamuko wrote:
| > _Pre-installing windows, bundling software (including
| telemetry - long history of this) makes Lenovo money at the
| time of sale, and afterwards._
|
| I'd use "spyware" instead of "telemetry" considering the shit
| Lenovo has done.
|
| https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/02/further-evidence-lenov...
| pydry wrote:
| Wow that's a whole new level of evil.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Dang. Six years since Superfish fiasco. I must have been in
| stasis for some of that.
| eecc wrote:
| Would you trust a preinstalled Ubuntu image from Lenovo more
| than a Windows one?
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > bundling software
|
| More like malware. I've even seen OEMs shipping firmware that
| just reinstalls their software even when users reinstall their
| operating systems. Lack of Linux support becomes a feature in
| these cases.
| jorvi wrote:
| I'm always torn on this kind of stuff. On one hand, if you're
| technically proficient you're basically getting a steal.
|
| Say a device you want to buy would cost $200, but because of
| stuff like pre-installing software, telemetry, etc. it is sold
| for $150. You just throw a custom OS on there / jailbreak it /
| run a few commands that kill the cruft, and you now have a
| clean device for a 25% discount.
|
| On the other hand, the vast majority of people are not that
| technically proficient, and are either unaware or unable to
| defend themselves from aforementioned stuff. My parents
| recently bought a new Smart TV and if it wasn't for me they had
| no idea how much those log and send back to the mothership.
|
| Then, if enough people actually are aware and combating this,
| it no longer is justifiable for the corporations and I lose my
| improptu discount. To me, a price I'm willing to pay to give
| others more privacy, but other people may not be so privileged.
| npteljes wrote:
| I feel similar with using adblockers. There's lots of ads and
| I hate them, but because I'm technically inclined I can block
| them. But if lots of people do this, and they do, the cat and
| mouse game escalates to a point where I cannot do it anymore.
| core-questions wrote:
| Is there a community for rooting Smart TVs and putting some
| other OS (i.e. LibreElec) onto the hardware?
|
| Conversely, does anyone know if there's some way to re-use
| smart TV hardware? I had a Sony Android TV get smashed by a
| wayward child's actions some time ago and took all the boards
| out before recycling the rest, and I'd love to use it on my
| old dumb TV which has an aging Xbox 360 driving it, but I
| can't figure out how I'd get normal video output from the
| thing.
| zamadatix wrote:
| The hardware used in Smart TVs is generally raspberry pi
| level (to the point the SoCs the rpi uses were actually
| designed for set top boxes) but a lot less friendly from
| both a kernel support perspective and hardware perspective
| because you don't have the entire Raspberry Pi foundation
| and hacking community behind making the software and
| hardware easy to hack on. Outside "I'm in it for the
| hardware hacking" grabbing a Pi 4 is going to be infinitely
| more effective, particularly if you want to throw libreelec
| or a de-googled Android TV on it without doing a lot of the
| hardware and software work yourself but even if you do it's
| unlikely you reach Pi quality.
|
| At the "more money but I just want a device I can run my
| own software on that works out of the box" the Shield TVs
| are great, you can throw an open source Android TV on it
| (not that the branded one is all that bad tbh).
| core-questions wrote:
| Mmm. I have an RPi 4 but misclicked when ordering and
| ended up with a 1GB model. The Kodi performance on it is
| unacceptably bad; which is surprising considering that
| codebase used to run on an Xbox 1 with one core and
| 64MB.... so it became a Volumio machine instead, once I
| got an external USB DAC that didn't suck as much as the
| onboard sound does. (Talk about electrical noise, ugh).
|
| The reason I wanted to see if I could get that Sony
| hardware running on some other screen (besides the re-use
| angle) is because Android TV gets you access to the first
| party Netflix and other streaming services with the
| proper UI. Netflix-via-Kodi is not really a very good
| user experience presently. You mention open source
| Android TV - is that something I could run on other kinds
| of devices? Can you get the Netflix etc. apps on it?
| zamadatix wrote:
| Yeah 1 GB will limit you out of running Android TV on it
| straight out, I think it requires 2 GB minimum.
|
| If you go fully open source on any device (Android TV or
| not) you lose full levels of Widevine (or whatever DRM)
| support. Apps like Netflix work on open source builds of
| Android TV but you won't get high quality streams as a
| result. I think Disney+ was one that refused to work at
| all, the rest seemed to run. So if you're doing "open
| source" for purity reasons those are the types tradeoffs
| you have to make regardless of the hardware or software
| you choose.
|
| OTOH if you're just looking for a decent unrestricted
| first party external Android TV box that gets updates
| (old model is 6 years running on updates now) and has
| full play store/app support the Shield TV is $150 new and
| will run all of the apps at 4k 60 HDR out of the box. It
| can even be officially unlocked and rooted but again some
| apps will stop working (e.g. Disney+) if you do that.
| Shield TV Pro is $200 if you want additional RAM and
| built in app storage. Comes with a nice remote too.
| userbinator wrote:
| Wanting to "smarten" a dumb TV is the exact opposite of the
| common trend here on HN, but in any case, the motherboard
| is likely to have LVDS or VbyOne output to the panel; if
| your dumb TV's panel uses the same interface and
| resolution, you might be able to do it.
|
| (You can get "universal scaler" boards which can drive any
| panel.)
| [deleted]
| rafaelturk wrote:
| If we all acted like Mr. Luca software industry and the internet
| would be much better.
|
| Clearly it was never about the 42 Euro license, it was about the
| principles.
|
| As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way because we
| passively allow them to do so.
| statstutor wrote:
| > As always companies like Lenovo only act like this way
| because we passively allow them to do so.
|
| Also because their total penalty for this behaviour, three
| years of legal time-wasting to avoid their responsibilities, is
| $20,000.
| Black101 wrote:
| lol, 20k... might as well been nothing
| scraptor wrote:
| If this sets a precedent it's enough to make it worth
| consumer's time to sue, which prevents lenovo (or others) from
| pulling such stunts in the future as they know they will
| actually get sued.
| Black101 wrote:
| I thought that they were talking about a class action
| lawsuit... it is great if they are talking about a single
| person.
| toyg wrote:
| Man, Italian tribunals already have enough of a backlog with all
| sorts of shit, Lenovo deserve the scorn for trying to abuse the
| process.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| > Lenovo deserve the scorn for trying to abuse the process
|
| This should happen more often. Especially if it's a big company
| trying to leverage the legal system to bully individuals or
| drive competitors out of business.
| amelius wrote:
| If only this applied to Apple hardware and Apple OSes too.
| me1337 wrote:
| In apple's case its different, software is bundled "free" when
| you buy apple's hardware. Lenovo Doesn't make software and
| forces you to pay for Windows.
| easton wrote:
| Microsoft put it in their EULA, Apple did not (Microsoft says
| you can return it for a refund, Apple doesn't and gives their
| OS away for free anyway so even if there was a legal
| requirement it wouldn't work).
| chme wrote:
| Are you sure that it is actually the EULA of Microsoft
| Windows that provides the basis for this decisions on court?
|
| The post make is more seems like it would be general consumer
| protection laws.
|
| Because if its based on general consumer protection laws,
| then how would that translate to choosing your own operating
| systems on smartphones, smartwatches, gaming consoles and the
| like?
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| It should translate directly. Personally I only buy gaming
| consoles that can be jailbroken, smartphones that you can
| install any GNU/Linux distro on etc. and I refuse to treat
| them any other way I'd treat a PC. That said, there are way
| more people not wanting Windows on their laptops than
| people who do what I do, and look how the issue of refunds
| over pre-installed Windows is still newsworthy now in 2021.
| 0110101001 wrote:
| The EULA says:
|
| > If you do not accept and comply with these terms, you may
| not use the software or its features. You may contact the
| device manufacturer or installer, or your retailer if you
| purchased the software directly, to determine its return
| policy and return the software or device for a refund or
| credit under that policy. You must comply with that policy,
| which might require you to return the software with the
| entire device on which the software is installed for a
| refund or credit, if any.
|
| And the article says:
|
| > Finally, in December 2020, the Court of Monza rejected
| all Lenovo's arguments, confirming that the right to
| reimbursement of the pre-installed software was due. The
| sentence pointed out that the manufacturer itself had
| expressly assumed this obligation in the Windows licence.
| andrewnicolalde wrote:
| > You must comply with that policy, which might require
| you to return the software with the entire device on
| which the software is installed for a refund or credit,
| if any.
|
| I wonder what they mean by "device." Device as in the
| hard drive or device as in the entire computer? Surely
| having to return the entire computer defeats the point of
| Windows' refund policy?
| easton wrote:
| Device means computer, what that means is either "return
| the computer or the OEM license to the manufacturer for a
| refund", which is to say that you get all of your money
| back if the computer is returned, not just the hardware
| cost.
| amelius wrote:
| Selling things below cost price is not legal everywhere (it
| is often called predatory pricing, undercutting, price
| slashing, etc.). Now, I'm not a lawyer but I'm guessing that
| giving away something for free isn't always legal either,
| especially if giving it away is of interest to your business.
| jacquesm wrote:
| > Apple doesn't and gives their OS away for free anyway
|
| At the price of their hardware that isn't a surprise.
| Essentially it is just another bundle, and upgrades do not
| eat into the sales of new hardware.
| raverbashing wrote:
| It would be harder to argue since Apple does not license it
| separately from the hardware, and does not even charge for the
| upgrades anymore. They could probably just say "it's free for
| buyers of Apple hardware".
| villgax wrote:
| So many users end up losing their OEM activation after having to
| re-install windows from torrented ISO's without access to actual
| keys.
| tom_mellior wrote:
| I don't know about Lenovo, but my Dell machines have their OEM
| Windows keys stored in the BIOS. You can wipe Windows and
| reinstall it at any point with that key.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| This is silly and inaccurate since at least 2012. OEM Windows
| keys are stored in the BIOS and can be activated without
| knowing the key. Also, you do not have to torrent Windows ISOs,
| they're freely available from Microsoft via the Media Creation
| Tool.
| trulyme wrote:
| ...not to mention that downloading an OS from some unknown
| torrent doesn't sound like a good idea.
| kkielhofner wrote:
| In addition to the other comments, product licenses from
| purchased copies of Windows (like a digital download/upgrade of
| Windows 10 Pro) are stored in your Microsoft account.
|
| Whatever means you use to reinstall even if it's a custom built
| machine without a Windows key in the BIOS you login to your
| Microsoft account and the license/activation "just works".
|
| Loooooong gone are the days of typing in license keys or
| calling Microsoft on the phone if there is a problem
| activating/re-activating.
| brnt wrote:
| _If_ you fancy identifying yourself to Microsoft and hooking
| up the copious telemetry they gather to you identity that is.
| azangru wrote:
| Lenovo is weird. On the one hand, it announces that it will pre-
| install Linux on ThinkPads. On the other hand, these
| configurations seem to be available only in selected countries.
| Also, this.
|
| P.S.: there's an entertaining segment by ThePrimeagen in which he
| talks about his frustrating experience of ordering an X1 Carbon
| Extreme from Lenovo:
| https://www.twitch.tv/videos/909927791?t=00h32m16s
| tomxor wrote:
| That's what I was thinking. Perhaps this shows just how
| disjointed Lenovo is as a company - there must be two very
| independent departments that know nothing of the others
| motivations.
| omgwtfbyobbq wrote:
| That's common in large companies. Business
| units/channels/divisions do all kinds of stuff that is
| inconsistent with each other and even the stated company
| goals.
|
| As an example, Aetna provides insurance to clients through
| Covered California and through other venues like the federal
| government. For the federal version, it's really easy to get
| stuff classified as out of network with a note from the
| provider that they don't accept Medicare assignment. For the
| Covered California version, it's virtually impossible to get
| out of network stuff covered because they will more or less
| trashcan notes from providers that don't accept Medicare
| assignment to avoid paying for those claims. My guess is the
| economics of each business unit/channel are different to the
| point where they make things easy for one plan and nearly
| impossible for another.
| smoldesu wrote:
| I've also seen this rift, it was particularly confusing
| through the last 10 years to see Lenovo's lower end products
| being such dogshit, while their higher-end offerings were the
| best in the business. It seems like they're addressing this
| though, as some of their newer budget products are
| surprisingly robust. I recently picked up a new Ideapad for
| $400, and it felt much more robust than anything else I've
| ever used in the sub-$500 category. Same goes for the Duet, a
| $250 Chromebook with build quality that betrays it's lower-
| end hardware configuration. Modern Thinkpads seem to be
| making a bit of a comeback too, which I'm certainly happy to
| see.
| sodality2 wrote:
| >I recently picked up a new Ideapad for $400, and it felt
| much more robust than anything else I've ever used in the
| sub-$500 category
|
| Model?
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| My son is a member of the T430 cult, which is what I'm
| typing this on. After upgrades, I've been fairly happy with
| it. I've been purchasing X1 Carbons for customers of mine
| and that's been a really good experience as well.
|
| I'd be happy to see Lenovo impose this high-end
| manufacturing quality across all of it's lines.
| voltagex_ wrote:
| The only think keeping me away from Lenovo for my next
| laptop is their nasty habit of imposing a PCIe whitelist.
| I've replaced the wifi card in my XPS 9350 at least once
| (Broadcom -> Intel) and I've got an Intel AX201 card
| waiting to be swapped in at the moment.
| numpad0 wrote:
| They have a few local teams in China, plus ThinkPad teams
| worldwide plus NEC and Fujitsu operations. Lenovo seems to
| be operating like a brand name shared by those multiple
| teams each with its own ways of doing PC, controlled by the
| corporate in China, so depending on which team did a
| product, the designs can be wildly different.
|
| Some of Ideapad 100 series were completely mini X270, for
| example.
| baybal2 wrote:
| The head going one way, and the body another.
| ricardobayes wrote:
| I was in the same shoes once with a tiny 11" lenovo ideapad,
| which didn't have enough storage space for windows updates
| anymore, even with everything uninstalled. I tried to install
| Linux, but was unable to.
| robocat wrote:
| FYI in the same position, the solution I found was to download
| the Windows Install ISO, put it onto USB, and boot from that
| and do a clean Windows install. I needed a special dongle too
| for the device.
|
| A clean install uses less disk space, and it removes
| accumulated cruft that you can't otherwise delete easily. I
| think minor updates worked after that for a while.
| mrtweetyhack wrote:
| 20k is not nearly enough. try 2M
| mixologic wrote:
| "It should go without saying that everyone should be able to
| freely choose the operating system to run on their personal
| computers"
|
| I think this is an antiquated idea that presupposes that the
| definition of the product you are buying from a company is a
| "general purpose computing device".
|
| The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the value
| that a product maker offers. We're now completely surrounded by
| devices that offer no such freedoms, and we're completely reliant
| on networked services where we also have no choice in the matter.
|
| Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on
| chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What
| about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
|
| This feels like trying to force a company to offer a product that
| somebody wishes they offered.
| amelius wrote:
| > The overwhelming majority of users of devices just want the
| value that a product maker offers.
|
| Yes, because they don't know any better.
|
| If all users knew how vendor lock-in affected the entire OX
| (ownership experience) in all its aspects, then perhaps they
| would choose differently.
| randrews wrote:
| When did we become okay with people selling something other
| than a general-purpose computer and calling it a "computer?"
| rootusrootus wrote:
| When we let regular people buy computers. Only enthusiasts
| want computers they tinker around with, the vast majority of
| consumers just want it to work. They won't be installing
| alternative operating systems, they want to push a button and
| get to work/play/etc.
| randrews wrote:
| Then call it a phone, or a console, or something. Words
| have meanings and if you sell something as a "computer"
| then the buyer can expect to be able to do general-purpose
| computation on it.
| wernercd wrote:
| but it's not simply a "phone" anymore... it's a super
| computer that happens to make phone calls.
|
| And what about making phone calls from computers now? I
| guess we shouldn't call THAT a computer anymore because
| it's used to make phone calls? It's a desk-phone?
| Google234 wrote:
| You can still do general propose computing though.
| There's millions of applications and you can make your
| own work a programming language of your choice.
| yurielt wrote:
| > Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on
| chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What
| about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
|
| Yes
| wernercd wrote:
| > Yes
|
| You can sue anyone for anything... the question is what are
| you suing the company for? Providing a product in a way you
| disagree with?
| wtallis wrote:
| > Should I be able to sue google for including chrome os on
| chromebooks? Apple for preinstalling osx? Android? Ios? What
| about the os for my cars' display, or my smart tv?
|
| All of those examples have the hardware manufacturer bundling
| _their own_ software, as opposed to tying a third-party
| software product that to the sale of the hardware. And none of
| those companies have quite the history that Microsoft does with
| illegal tying. So there 's plenty of room to draw a line that
| allows Chrome OS and iOS but requires Lenovo to make Windows
| optional. (I'm not saying that's the most sensible place to
| draw the line, just that there are clear distinctions to be
| made here.)
| effingwewt wrote:
| Man this makes me want to move to Italy.
|
| Someone start a country with free healthcare and consumer
| protections, you can tax me what you want.
|
| I just want to live in a society where everyone is taken care of,
| not where businesses make the laws.
| raverbashing wrote:
| Props to the Lenovo IT legal department who challenged a legal
| decision that would have cost them 200EUR. Sure it might have
| encouraged more people to ask for a refund, still cheaper than
| what they have to pay now.
| ekianjo wrote:
| 20k euros is still a drop in the ocean. It wont even register.
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