[HN Gopher] Baserow.io - Self-hosted Airtable alternative
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       Baserow.io - Self-hosted Airtable alternative
        
       Author : punnerud
       Score  : 721 points
       Date   : 2021-03-13 19:03 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (baserow.io)
 (TXT) w3m dump (baserow.io)
        
       | thedays wrote:
       | Looks great. I suggest you get rid of the decimal point and two
       | decimals in the pricing so it's simpler to understand, especially
       | for people outside Europe that use commas in numbers differently.
       | 
       | EUR4 per user / month
       | 
       | is much easier to read and understand for most people than
       | 
       | EUR 4,00 per user / month
       | 
       | The comma made it look a bit odd and like EUR400 initially when I
       | glanced at it and it just seems like an unnecessary level of
       | precision to include the two decimal points when they are both
       | zero anyway.
        
         | sickmate wrote:
         | A perfect use case for Number.prototype.toLocaleString.
         | 
         | https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/JavaScript/Refe...
        
         | remram wrote:
         | "From EUR 1.000 p/m" is even worse. I was not even aware of any
         | locale using ',' for decimals and '.' for thousands.
        
           | Kiro wrote:
           | Probably German.
        
             | gog wrote:
             | Majority of European countries use a decimal comma.
        
               | cornzsty wrote:
               | Finns use a space. It's best to use some library, built-
               | in or otherwise to make sure it's the correct one.
        
               | remram wrote:
               | I'm French, where we use a comma for decimals, but a
               | space for thousands.
        
       | jsilence wrote:
       | +1 for excellent Cloudron support!
        
       | abinaya_rl wrote:
       | I just literally searched for Web GUI client for Postgres and I
       | was going through the Google Search results. Just in time noticed
       | this awesome tool came up in HN. Really great man. I would like
       | to become a paid customer once it's live.
        
         | steve_taylor wrote:
         | Did you come across BaseDash? It was announced on HN a few
         | months ago.
         | 
         | https://www.basedash.com/
        
       | chaps wrote:
       | Can who's who's used this share their experiences with this?
       | Sounds interesting, but it's going to be a hard sell for
       | collaboration work with airtable already.. on the table.
        
       | iampims wrote:
       | The documentation is excellent. It's so rare to see such well
       | written documentation with just the right learning curve.
        
       | tylermenezes wrote:
       | I am so excited for this software. I have used Airtable
       | extensively, and it's a pile of garbage. Here are just a FEW of
       | the "features" Airtable charges $24/user/mo for:
       | 
       | - Reliable 1-5 hours a month of downtime. There are months where
       | it's literally 1 nine of uptime. Their status page was actually
       | down for a while (I think they forgot to renew it?)
       | 
       | - Simple and obvious bugs in the official API clients have not
       | been fixed for years (for example, Promises in the official JS
       | library throw the string `[object Object]` for all exceptions.)
       | 
       | - The API has no way to query the structure of a table, you have
       | to infer it from the first few records. (The auto-generated API
       | documentation is actually wrong if you don't have a fully-filled-
       | in row somewhere in the first few rows.)
       | 
       | - You can't modify a table configuration by API... except you can
       | _sometimes_ by adding a parameter which is documented to try to
       | convert dates, but actually modifies field definitions for a
       | number of fields. Documentation for which fields is entirely in
       | scattered forum posts from users.
       | 
       | - Booleans in the API are `true` or `undefined`. Seriously.
       | 
       | This is all /barely/ worth it because Google Docs doesn't work
       | when you need a large structured database with many
       | collaborators. But man is it bad software.
        
         | wdb wrote:
         | Yeah, most SaaS solutions have this problem. GitLab wants you
         | to pay $80/user/mo to be able to get dependency scanning or
         | vulnerability scanning. While Github gives you that for free.
         | They could at least include it in their $20/user/month tier.
        
           | maigret wrote:
           | At some point you have to pay a price to maintain a
           | competition in the ecosystem. We all know what happens when
           | there is only a player left. Microsoft can just sink billions
           | in side games like Teams and GitHub at the moment.
        
             | wdb wrote:
             | Personally, I think these two features should be part of
             | the $20 tier and not the most expensive one. I don't
             | understand why I have to pay $60/user/month more to get
             | some UI integration which I can also get when paying for
             | GitHub Enterprise for similar price as GitLab's $20 tier
        
         | tthun wrote:
         | Try force.com (fully featured developer account is free with
         | limits), very stable and fully featured PaaS with long tail of
         | features. On a quick review Airtable as a slick/modern UX on
         | less sound architecture than force.com, probably shipping
         | features in a breakneck pace.
        
           | throwaway86310 wrote:
           | Can't say if I just got rick-rolled.
        
           | andrenotgiant wrote:
           | salesforce.com? can't tell if you're making a joke,
           | recommending SalesForce, or there's another company called
           | force with a different TLD.
        
             | tthun wrote:
             | Not a Joke. I am recommending Salesforce.com's PaaS
             | offering (used to licensed as force.com, now called
             | "platform" [0]). Expensive, but it is IMHO the best low
             | code cloud platform there is that has got every aspect
             | (Apps, Identity, Security, ACLs, Workflows and Triggers,
             | APIs) right.
             | 
             | [0] https://www.salesforce.com/editions-pricing/platform/
        
               | zwily wrote:
               | I have never used a Salesforce app that was not terrible.
               | I'm sure it provides lots of value to the business who
               | use it, but it is awful awful for end users it is thrust
               | upon.
        
               | atonse wrote:
               | My experience with Salesforce is exactly the promise of
               | low code. Because you can get a lot more done without
               | needing to be a software engineer, it empowers a whole
               | extra set of people to build software without having to
               | think in terms of reusability, performance, scalability,
               | or a coherent data model. And you see the results of
               | that.
               | 
               | I think as a platform it's really powerful. (I've arrived
               | at that after years of looking at it with disdain). But
               | it's problematic from our perspective exactly because it
               | throws out anything we consider good habits of software
               | development.
        
               | the_duke wrote:
               | Just hearing Salesforce should make you run as fast as
               | you can , if you value your sanity as a developer.
               | 
               | Salesforce is unbeatable in marketing and sales strategy,
               | but the products are horrible.
        
               | tthun wrote:
               | > sanity as a developer Low code is targeted at app
               | building experience for non-developers/citizen coders.
               | Curious if you have personal experience with the
               | Salesforce platform and can provide details on some of
               | your biggest gripes with it. I have used it with great
               | success in building simple "textbox on database"
               | applications that are easy to maintain and change.
               | 
               | > hearing Salesforce alone What do you think about
               | heroku?
               | 
               | I am genuinely interested in alternatives that is cheaper
               | and don't charge per user.
        
             | sporkland wrote:
             | Force.com used to be a dedicated domain for salesforce's
             | easy to use enterprise development platform, which is quite
             | popular. Seems like they've rolled it back under
             | salesforce.com as a page.
        
         | grioghar wrote:
         | I'm so glad it's not just me.
         | 
         | I have been unimpressed with the over-complication and
         | the...lacking API.
        
         | alexashka wrote:
         | Just curious - what do you use airtable for exactly?
         | 
         | When do you need a structured database with many collaborators?
         | 
         | Airtable and the like strike me as a database tool for dummies
         | who want 'anyone change anything anytime', which is just a
         | recipe for no one knowing who the hell is changing what and
         | when anymore.
        
           | chrisdone wrote:
           | It's my understanding that the main selling feature of
           | AirTable is the hard coded views that they offer; calendars,
           | kanban style planners, things like that. The slightly more
           | structured nature of relational tables over spreadsheets lets
           | you implement those fairly reliably.
        
           | xupybd wrote:
           | Yeah it's common in business. Normally it's in a spreadsheet
           | on a shared drive, so this is a step up.
           | 
           | Businesses change fast and don't always have internal
           | development resources to create an application to do this
           | sort of thing.
        
           | auxym wrote:
           | I use the free tier as a collaborative Kanban board for a
           | tiny 5 person team.
           | 
           | Airtable allows me to define arbitrary fields for the Kanban
           | cards, which happens to be a premium/paid feature in all the
           | actual Kanban saas tools (Trello, etc).
        
             | sofixa wrote:
             | It isn't on Jira if you're <10 users, but Jira is a whole
             | lot more than just Kanban and a huge beast.
        
               | auxym wrote:
               | JIRA would not just overkill but a bad fit for us,
               | potentially requiring extensive configuration.
               | 
               | We're an academic research lab that also happens to do
               | contractual work for other labs (mostly internal to the
               | university), mostly designing and building mechanical
               | prototypes and testbeds for other researchers.
               | 
               | It took like 5 minutes to set up an airtable base to
               | track our WIP and all information we use for billing our
               | "customers": hours, material purchased, internal budget
               | reference, etc.
        
             | onetom wrote:
             | It sounds like https://notion.so can do that too, besides
             | being a real-time collaborative document editor, wiki,
             | spreadsheet, etc etc
        
           | sporkland wrote:
           | Microsoft Access and Lotus Notes (and to a lesser extent
           | SharePoint) both had these characteristics and are quite
           | popular for the long tail of business processes that aren't
           | covered by dedicated vendors. The only problem is the tech
           | tends to age and it becomes hard to migrate the 1000+ bespoke
           | "apps" that live inside the enterprise.
        
         | elwell wrote:
         | I agree that Airtable is expensive, but I've found their custom
         | app development experience to be quite nice.
        
         | Vmody2 wrote:
         | > - Booleans in the API are `true` or `undefined`. Seriously.
         | 
         | But why???
        
           | unixhero wrote:
           | Because they are not real boolean datatype, just strings
           | probably.
        
             | tluyben2 wrote:
             | Wonder what they use underneath; don't most relation dbs
             | implement as int?
        
               | aidos wrote:
               | When you're doing dynamic structure in relational dbs
               | (traditionally) options include storing a wide row with
               | all the data types and you choose which column to use, or
               | storing as lowest common denominator (string) and casting
               | in and out at runtime. These days you can work around
               | this stuff with json / schemaless models.
               | 
               | Airtable allow switching data types on a column (from
               | memory). Maybe they store everything as string and then
               | the column definition is for display and allowed
               | operations.
               | 
               | Hubspot do this (poorly) so they're forever giving you
               | back things like dates as string of a number representing
               | a date.
        
       | steQ wrote:
       | Self hosted and open source alternative is https://directus.io/
       | 
       | They switch from PHP to Node recently
        
       | dehugger wrote:
       | I loaded up the demo and am impressed with what you'e achieved.
       | However I cannot find any way to add column restraints, or
       | mention of how to do so in any of the documentation.
       | 
       | Is there really no way to mark a column as "not null" or make a
       | unique id that auto generates, or say a date column that gets set
       | on insert?
       | 
       | I don't think these are very advanced features to ask of a SQL
       | database and am confused why they appear to be missing.
        
       | chrisblackwell wrote:
       | I will be using this, and dropping a lot of my paid AirTable
       | bases...and let me please explain why.
       | 
       | Airtable makes it VERY hard to collaborate with people outside my
       | organization. We are a team of 7 people. No longer a scrappy
       | 1-person startup, but not an enterprise client by any-means.
       | 
       | If I want to add a single person to an Airtable base, that's $24
       | a month please. I have one client with 12 people that want to
       | collaborate on the base by posting comments. I can't justify $288
       | a month just to keep the comments for all time.I contacted
       | Airtable about this and was told the "Enterprise Plan" would be a
       | perfect fit. Minimum $15k a year commitment.
       | 
       | Why is this happening in the SasS world??? Everyone seems to be
       | either single Pro user, or Enterprise. Do they really think there
       | is nothing in-between?
        
         | tyingq wrote:
         | It does seem odd for those "low code" tools to not have a way
         | to deal with "external users". For example, it would be logical
         | to create a tool for accepting job candidates. The internal
         | facing piece would be limited to some reasonable number of
         | users, but the outward facing piece would have to allow anyone
         | to submit a record.
         | 
         | I do know that knack.com has a pricing model based on number of
         | records instead of number of users. Might be an option for you,
         | depending on how many records you have.
        
           | PebblesRox wrote:
           | Airtable does allow you to create a publishable form view so
           | that anyone can submit a new record.
           | 
           | You can also add read-only users to a base without having to
           | pay for them. But giving them any kind of edit access (even
           | just the ability to add comments to records) requires a full-
           | fledged user account.
        
         | ig1 wrote:
         | There's a few factors at play;
         | 
         | 1) There's customers who will pay 15k for the exact same
         | users/features as you're willing to pay <3k for. If they
         | offered a cheap package then those customers wouldn't pay for
         | the expensive package.
         | 
         | 2) Sub enterprise customers are a pain, they're often as
         | expensive as enterprise customers (acquisition, support, etc)
         | but with significantly less revenue and higher churn. When a
         | company decides where to focus it's going to go where the money
         | is.
        
           | social_quotient wrote:
           | I'm small'ish agency and we have clients with lots of
           | stakeholders often that just need to be added to artifact
           | systems like this for formal reasons but they aren't active
           | enough to justify the costs.
           | 
           | I totally get that they need to make money to keep making a
           | good product and stay alive. It's a difficult problem.
           | 
           | One idea - If small clients are a pain (because of support)
           | then support should be a specific thing that can dialed in a
           | bit. AWS is fantastic here. Noisy people are gonna pay for
           | it... but if I'm small, yet not noisy, then I don't get hurt
           | and can continue to drink the koolaid.
        
           | alisonkisk wrote:
           | The simple answer is to charge for support like every
           | enterprise company does
        
         | loceng wrote:
         | "Why is this happening in the SasS world???"
         | 
         | It's the VC-finance industrial complex expecting a drive
         | towards an IPO to exit while offloading the risk and
         | unsustainable fees to the general public via misaligned stock
         | brokers buying/selling to get fees vs. only benefitting long-
         | term if their picks earn profit.
        
         | ComodoHacker wrote:
         | Are your tables large enough Office 365 can't handle it for a
         | reasonable price?
        
           | auxym wrote:
           | Do you mean excel, or has Microsoft come out with an airtable
           | clone?
           | 
           | Excel is a really poor substitute for airtable.
        
             | ComodoHacker wrote:
             | I mean Excel, and specifically for GP's use case.
        
             | zokier wrote:
             | MS has also PowerApps and Power BI. I have never touched
             | them, and I hope I never need to. But they seem to play
             | remotely in the same area.
        
             | jasdine817 wrote:
             | SharePoint Lists is designed to compete with Airtables.
        
         | azernik wrote:
         | Price discrimination is a hard problem! There's a conflict
         | between soaking your customers for as much as they're willing
         | to pay, and making your product accessible to customers that
         | won't pay that much. Finding a feature set that the first set
         | of customers absolutely needs and will pay extra for, but the
         | second set can live without, is hard.
        
           | donmcronald wrote:
           | The problem is that pricing is expected to be the opposite of
           | what it really should be. Companies with 10k users expect a
           | discount, but the reality is they should be paying a lot more
           | because building a product to serve 10k users is much harder
           | than building a product to serve 10 users.
           | 
           | On the flipside, why should I, as a small user, share in the
           | cost of things like scalability, HA, SLAs, etc.? I don't need
           | those things.
           | 
           | Based on what I've seen in larger businesses, those things
           | can be paper features. It doesn't matter if the small
           | business edition has the same scalability and HA as the
           | enterprise edition. Large businesses will still pay for the
           | enterprise edition because they need to be able to show they
           | paid for HA, etc. to cover their own asses if anything every
           | goes wrong.
           | 
           | Charge for scalability and reliability, not features IMO.
        
             | sofixa wrote:
             | Hard disagree. Scalability and reliability, and SSO[0] are
             | basic features any piece of software should have. Even a
             | one-person startup shouldn't have to accept a tool being
             | down for a month or all of their data lost due to a fire in
             | a datacenter. Charging extra for any of these is a very
             | shitty business model.
             | 
             | 0 - sso.tax
        
               | donmcronald wrote:
               | How much scalability does one person need? And no HA
               | doesn't mean "down for a month". It means I have no issue
               | with enduring a few hours of downtime here and there. And
               | HA and backups aren't even related, so...
        
               | sofixa wrote:
               | One person could still require significant capacity -
               | imagine an API with flight info, and your one person SaaS
               | that does some magic with it by getting the data real
               | time for all flights around the world.
               | 
               | > And no HA doesn't mean "down for a month". It means I
               | have no issue with enduring a few hours of downtime here
               | and there
               | 
               | No HA means downtime is expected and frequent ( baring
               | crazy luck, but let's not base business on hope). If your
               | invoicing, or project management, or note taking or
               | whatever SaaS is down and you need it now to do something
               | for a client of yours, how many hours of downtime can you
               | accept?
               | 
               | > And HA and backups aren't even related, so...
               | 
               | You said scalability and reliability, good backups are a
               | part of reliability. If a SaaS cheaps on backups and HA
               | for small time clients like one-person companies or small
               | startups, and then a fire burns it all ( but not
               | entreprise customers, because their backups are
               | replicated to another DC), is it OK because they were
               | small?
        
             | alisonkisk wrote:
             | Is it 1000x times harder to server 10K users?
        
               | higeorge13 wrote:
               | In some cases yes. I worked for a b2b company, which was
               | not designed as multi-tenant and all their customers were
               | under the same db and the same service. Now imagine
               | response time for small business vs enterprises (yes they
               | had a few of those paying premium, lol), sometimes the
               | later was infinite.
        
         | viraptor wrote:
         | > Why is this happening in the SasS world?
         | 
         | Because it works for them. I mean, they likely have customers
         | for that $15k plan. And if they do, why would it be worth their
         | time discussing <$24 plans that require extra dev time with
         | you? (I don't mean it as a complaint - just awareness that for-
         | profit companies will do for-profit things)
        
         | markfer wrote:
         | That's ridiculous. Collaborating with clients should almost
         | always be free.
         | 
         | Just out of curiosity, what kind of collaboration are you doing
         | with clients? I'm the CEO of a platform specifically for
         | businesses and their clients, and we loosely compete with
         | Airtable.
        
         | jerieljan wrote:
         | > Why is this happening in the SasS world??? Everyone seems to
         | be either single Pro user, or Enterprise. Do they really think
         | there is nothing in-between?
         | 
         | The in-between for some software out there is "Guest access".
         | Services like Notion, Miro and Mural have this figured out, but
         | it is very disappointing that most do not.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | donmcronald wrote:
         | > Everyone seems to be either single Pro user, or Enterprise.
         | Do they really think there is nothing in-between?
         | 
         | Just like GitLab. If you have users that might post one or two
         | issues a year you have to pay for them at dev level prices.
         | $240 / year for idle users that barely participate? No thanks.
         | 
         | And they have the same tone deaf solution; upgrade to Ultimate.
         | 
         | Silicon Valley SaaS bros have lost touch with reality because
         | they have unlimited money to work with.
        
           | ShakataGaNai wrote:
           | Ah $240/year, I wish it were that cheap. If you want the
           | security goodies is $1200/year/user. You have to make the
           | impossible choice of getting everyone involved with the tool,
           | or getting all the features. Because you can't afford the
           | features AND the users.
        
           | Swizec wrote:
           | > Silicon Valley SaaS bros have lost touch with reality
           | because they have unlimited money to work with.
           | 
           | Disagree. The issue is that they don't _want_ cheap users. It
           | lowers your average user value, impacts your valuation, and
           | usually cheap users are the most demanding to support in
           | relation to their revenue. A user that pays $50 /year and has
           | 5 questions to support us very different than 5 questions
           | from a user posting $5000/year
        
             | Aeolun wrote:
             | The problem is _getting_ those 5000 /month accounts if
             | nobody wants to use your product before they get there.
        
               | Swizec wrote:
               | You'd be surprised. Those users come from sales more than
               | self serve. Very different business model.
        
               | alisonkisk wrote:
               | Who is going to buy your high touch sales offer if they
               | see no one uses your product?
               | 
               | Is this a thing where all the YC companies buy each
               | other's stuff to prop up the revenue numbers until IPO?
        
               | Swizec wrote:
               | Have you tried buying from salesforce? Very high touch,
               | very expensive, very unfit for small businesses, hugely
               | successful and widely used.
               | 
               | Different audiences, different approaches.
               | 
               | Many successful businesses are such that none of us have
               | ever heard of, but are making millions, sometimes
               | billions. We haven't heard of them because we're not the
               | target market and talking to us is a waste of resources.
        
             | donmcronald wrote:
             | I see the support excuse all the time, but I don't
             | understand why it needs to be that way and I don't really
             | believe it to be honest. Sell me a small business version
             | that includes per-incident support. If someone has a
             | problem and balks at the idea of paying fair value for the
             | support they need, then I agree they're not worth having as
             | a customer.
             | 
             | If the goal is to ignore or be actively hostile towards the
             | bottom 80%, I guess a lot of SaaS companies are succeeding.
             | To me though, they're building poorer quality products that
             | aren't going to capture enough up and coming businesses and
             | the long term impact is going to be a bunch of bloated
             | garbage with a ton of half baked features where everyone is
             | competing for the "enterprise" dollars.
             | 
             | > It lowers your average user value, impacts your valuation
             | 
             | To me, that's what it's really about. It's pump and dump
             | quality SaaS that's built for an IPO, not for the users.
        
               | Swizec wrote:
               | > If the goal is to ignore or be actively hostile towards
               | the bottom 80%, I guess a lot of SaaS companies are
               | succeeding.
               | 
               | Yes, that is the goal. When an org decides to target
               | primarily enterprise, the whole business model changes.
               | You go from self serve to sales, from support chat to
               | SLAs, etc.
               | 
               | You literally become unable to support small customers
               | cost effectively and they are not worth your time.
               | 
               | Happens a lot in the B2B SaaS space when companies
               | realize how much easier it is to have 10 users for
               | $10,000 than 1000 users for $10. Some companies decide to
               | keep focusing on small businesses and indies, which is
               | great.
               | 
               | Ultimately there's room for both business models in the
               | world. But as a business, _you_ have to make sure you
               | work with businesses where you are [still] the target
               | market.
        
               | renewiltord wrote:
               | Significantly damages your brand to do this and you'll
               | defacto turn into a consulting company. Plus places
               | incentives on your org to force things to be incidents
               | since that's what pays. You'll get stuck in a local
               | minimum of being a small-time consulting company.
               | 
               | Or maybe you won't. But that's the reason I wouldn't want
               | to do it.
               | 
               | Besides, there's no way you can only access the no-
               | support users. Google, for instance, offers one of these
               | for their email product and are able to make the product
               | free. In their case, they got brand awareness quite fast.
               | But even though Google has Google One in the US if you
               | want paid response, this forum frequently decries the
               | lack of support.
               | 
               | The problem is the users who occupy the no-support space
               | cannot be selected as consumers. When you try to do that,
               | you will get an army of users who want to not pay but who
               | _do_ want support. They think they want no-support but
               | they don 't, and they will retroactively rebrand their
               | reasons to be more than money.
               | 
               | That isn't bitterness or anything (I've always dealt with
               | B2B software) but it's the reality of the thing as I can
               | see.
        
               | donmcronald wrote:
               | I deal with a lot of small businesses and to me it feels
               | like that entire sector of the industry is being
               | abandoned. Most small businesses owners are practical and
               | will pay for things when they need them, but they're
               | fairly price sensitive and they expect good value for
               | their money.
               | 
               | Take MS365 as an example. Most small businesses I deal
               | with would be way better off with Exchange than with
               | their current shared hosting email providers, but the
               | value just isn't there for a lot of them. Microsoft
               | thinks they're selling all this awesome stuff like
               | Exchange, OneDrive, Teams, etc. in an ultra valuable
               | bundle, but all small businesses see is Exchange plus a
               | bunch of other bloat they're never going to use but are
               | forced to pay for. They just want Exchange.
               | 
               | Plus, at least for the ones I've dealt with, the partner
               | exclusively interacts with the customer, so bad support
               | gets labelled as having a bad partner, not as Microsoft
               | being bad. That also means Microsoft isn't incurring any
               | cost to be the first point of contact either. In fact,
               | the only time I've ever dealt with MS support for
               | something Exchange related, they sucked. I ended up
               | solving my own problem and closing the support issue by
               | telling them what was wrong. Reputationally, we're the
               | one that recommends it, we're the first point of contact
               | for support, and we're the ones that take the reputation
               | hit if something isn't working. At least that's my
               | experience.
               | 
               | I see lots of small businesses that have 50 mailboxes for
               | $60 / year at a shared hosting provider. That's $.10 per
               | month per user. Guess how they react when you tell them
               | moving to MS365 will be $5 per month per user? Now I'm
               | not saying MS365 isn't worth more, but it's a HARD sell
               | to tell a small business they should pay 50x for
               | something that's currently working fine as far as they're
               | concerned. Then you add in things like backup solutions
               | changing per user per month and all of a sudden you're
               | telling a small business they should pay 75x for the same
               | feature matrix their shared hosting provider is selling
               | them. They don't care about all the stupid value adds. In
               | fact that stuff is negative value because it's unneeded
               | complexity which results in frustration and increased
               | support costs.
        
               | ab_testing wrote:
               | I think you answered your question right there. Microsoft
               | does not want the business of a company where 50
               | mailboxes cost $60 for the whole year. They are happy to
               | leave that market to other lower cost providers
        
               | donmcronald wrote:
               | It wouldn't have to be that cheap though. If they sold
               | Exchange only plans for $1-2 / user / month I could
               | probably convince 10x the users it's worth it. And they
               | never deal with the customers.
               | 
               | It's MUCH easier to sell someone another product at that
               | point too. That's literally the strategy (cross selling)
               | Ballmer used to increase sales so much that he ended up
               | owning part of MS.
        
               | alisonkisk wrote:
               | Meanwhile MS and Google have thousands of satisfied
               | customers with millions of users paying the $10/mo/user.
        
               | ta988 wrote:
               | Google is making money with users' emails contents and
               | ads displayed in their interface, so that's not like they
               | are doing that for free. In the case of airtable, I'm not
               | sure non paying users are bringing them anything that can
               | be monetized (I may just not be aware of vicious
               | monetization ways though)
        
             | jwitchel wrote:
             | That's not quite right. It's not the support. It's the
             | churn metrics. A guy who uses your system episodically can
             | give the appearance of a high churn rate. This is very bad
             | and if you're raising money can imply that your system
             | isn't sticky which lowers your valuations. If you're in the
             | fundraising game that's actually worse than a few extra
             | dollars of revenue.
        
               | social_quotient wrote:
               | Goodhart's law - When a measure becomes a target, it
               | ceases to be a good measure.
        
               | ta988 wrote:
               | We need another law here... When everybody maintains bad
               | measures despite knowing they don't work. Impact factors
               | in science are another example of that. You can say it is
               | broken and proove it, your jury for grants or positions
               | will still ask you to put the numbers next to your
               | papers, and if you don't they'll do it themselves...
        
             | cmeacham98 wrote:
             | Sell me a no or very limited support plan then (or charge
             | extra for the support when it's needed). At least
             | personally, if your docs are halfway decent and I don't run
             | into any major bugs I will almost never make a support
             | request.
        
           | hanniabu wrote:
           | > Just like GitLab. If you have users that might post one or
           | two issues a year you have to pay for them at dev level
           | prices. $240 / year for idle users that barely participate?
           | No thanks.
           | 
           | Google Form linked in your readme, done deal.
        
         | spoonjim wrote:
         | 80% of the software revenue in the world comes from a few
         | thousand companies. The big software vendors don't give a shit
         | about chasing that last 20%.
        
         | Joeri wrote:
         | An enterprise IWMS system I worked on solved this by charging
         | only for enabled accounts. An admin could enable or disable
         | accounts, and every month a report would show how many unique
         | accounts were enabled that month and determined the billing.
         | That shouldn't be that hard to implement for airtable or any
         | other SaaS, so it is puzzling why that option isn't offered.
        
           | eb0la wrote:
           | I remember Qlikview (reporting/data discovery software) had a
           | per minute license for this.
           | 
           | There are a lot of inactive users in reporting apps. A lot of
           | people just log in once a month to see a single report and
           | this was a useful way to get more users onboard.
           | 
           | It looked scary at first because you didn't knew beforehand
           | how many minutes you should buy.
           | 
           | Mising standard and by minute license worked great, though
        
       | Exuma wrote:
       | Hourglass on pricing tables makes no sense. I'm not a moron and
       | after scanning the page I have no idea what this means... the
       | only thing I can assume is some kind of feature not ready for
       | production yet?
        
         | bram2w wrote:
         | It means that those features have not been created. I agree
         | with you that it has to clearer. We will add a small
         | description what the hourglass icon means soon.
        
           | Exuma wrote:
           | I would just write "coming soon" and make it very clear. a
           | tiny legend is going to be only marginally better, when it
           | should be clear at the expense of slightly fancy looking.
        
             | rovr138 wrote:
             | And would just add complexity for people using a screen
             | reader.
        
             | mikeg8 wrote:
             | This is good UI advice baserow team.
        
       | nojvek wrote:
       | Something that would be really cool is if there was an open
       | source - self hosted version of notion.so.
       | 
       | I like notion because it's a hybrid of wiki, table/database,
       | calendar, kanban. You can do a lot more than just tables.
        
         | bobbylarrybobby wrote:
         | Check out anytype.io
        
         | bram2w wrote:
         | We are going to add Notion like features to Baserow in 2022.
         | You should then be able to create similar documents within the
         | same tool and it is going to work well together with the
         | databases and tables that you already have.
        
         | gustavohoa wrote:
         | This sounds a lot like getoutline.com
        
         | hypermachine wrote:
         | You can try us out when we launch, though for us it is more
         | "assemble your own Notion tool like Lego" rather than an out-
         | of-the-box Notion clone.
        
       | bram2w wrote:
       | Hello everyone, I am Bram Wiepjes, the founder of Baserow.
       | Baserow is an open source, soon to be open core, no-code database
       | tool and Airtable alternative. Easily create your own relational
       | database in a user friendly way without technical experience.
       | 
       | - Unlimited rows.
       | 
       | - Released under the MIT license.
       | 
       | - Uses popular frameworks like Django and Vue.js.
       | 
       | - Uses PostgreSQL as database backend.
       | 
       | - It can be self hosted.
       | 
       | - Designed to be performant with lots of data, handles 100k+ rows
       | per table easily.
       | 
       | - Headless and API first.
       | 
       | - Supports plugins.
       | 
       | If you have experience with Django and Vue.js, we are hiring full
       | stack developers. More info: https://baserow.io/jobs/experienced-
       | full-stack-developer
       | 
       | Repository: https://gitlab.com/bramw/baserow
        
         | sequoia wrote:
         | > EUR 4,00 per user / month
         | 
         | In the USA and I think all English speaking places we use dot
         | rather than comma to separate decimals from whole number, and
         | comma for thousands, millions etc. So at a glance (before
         | looking closely) this looks like four _thousand_ euros per user
         | per month. I looked a second time and realized that was
         | incorrect but consider fixing for EN- 4K /user/mo is quite
         | shocking to read! :)
        
           | presentation wrote:
           | better use the user's browser locale + Intl to format the
           | currency for you :)
        
             | chrismorgan wrote:
             | Easier and better to just omit the decimal part: EUR4 per
             | user per month.
        
         | archon810 wrote:
         | "Eerly premium"
         | 
         | FYI, a pretty big typo on the front page.
        
         | avinassh wrote:
         | I noticed this in your job listing:
         | 
         | > Challenge: Potential candidates will be asked to do a coding
         | challange by picking up a small issue from the open source
         | backlog
         | 
         | The candidates who are fixing the issues, get paid? If so, I
         | think this should be clarified.
         | 
         | Also, there is a typo in the word `challange` should be
         | `challenge`
        
         | oreille wrote:
         | Hey, some things I'd love to see in Baserow:
         | 
         | - Join fields from related table (currently we can only see the
         | id from the joined table field)
         | 
         | - Multi-line select, multi line update.
         | 
         | - Schema support
         | 
         | - Saving views (sort/filter option, hidden fields, joined
         | fields)
         | 
         | I also have a question, are Kanban and Calendar view available
         | in the free self hosted version?
        
         | kennydude wrote:
         | Nice to see this using Django and VueJS! :D
        
         | mekster wrote:
         | Any plan for proper mobile support? Couldn't find a ticket on
         | GitLab.
        
         | fatsdomino001 wrote:
         | Incredible work!
         | 
         | Would Baserow be a good fit for using as database of
         | subscription-based website? E.g. storing users, etc. You could
         | have just static front-end and use Baserow as the database?
         | 
         | I'll definitely be looking further into it.
        
         | swyx wrote:
         | I made a sample database and found it hard to look up the API -
         | you could make that discoverable/easier from the main UI.
         | 
         | i was surprised to find the field ID's are named like
         | "field_48664" - are you globally autoincrementing your fields??
         | this is going to be bad news, no?
        
       | decentrality wrote:
       | Had me at "self-hosted"
       | 
       | Following the repository now, and tried an online demo account.
       | Looks promising but now quite ready.
       | 
       | Will be switching from Airtable when:
       | 
       | 1. More field formats are supported ( like Currency,
       | Collaborators, Multiselect )
       | 
       | 2. Kanban views are supported
       | 
       | 3. Automations are supported
        
       | ybalkind wrote:
       | Another alternative (not self-hosted or open source) is Fibery.io
       | More powerful than Airtable, and has some Notion-like
       | capabilities.
        
       | jsilence wrote:
       | I'm really fond of retool. Is Baserow aimed in the same
       | direction? That would be absolutely great!
       | 
       | Here's a 4min demo video of retool:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkcwNwPy7RI
        
         | ericcholis wrote:
         | I think retool is so much more than Baserow. You could
         | conceivably build an entire CRM in retool. Or, flesh out a
         | headless API with an interface in retool.
        
       | artemonster wrote:
       | What is the market for that? What can it do that good ol excel
       | cannot (or, if so really desired, ms access)
        
         | mekster wrote:
         | I really never like selling my data to third parties. I usually
         | don't consider using online services unless there's absolutely
         | no good alternatives.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | 40four wrote:
         | Well, among the many answers you might get to this question,
         | the one that sticks out the most to me is Excel spreadsheets do
         | not have a built in REST API and Websocket service out of the
         | box.
         | 
         | Sure you can pay up for Access or Sharepoint, or whatever
         | offerings Microsoft has that _do_ give REST APIs (I'm honestly
         | not familiar with them). But this is free and open source, and
         | anyone can put it on a web server and start jamming :)
        
       | mrfusion wrote:
       | This seems ideal for a FOSS project.
        
       | I_am_tiberius wrote:
       | Open source is great. But it's hard for me welcoming something
       | that is almost a 1:1 copy of a concept that somebody else worked
       | on for many years.
        
         | treve wrote:
         | You mean things like Linux, LibreOffice, Any browser?
         | 
         | The things that they are copying are themselves also copies of
         | earlier products. Airtable can be traced back to MS Access,
         | DBase and I'm sure there's even older examples.
        
           | I_am_tiberius wrote:
           | I just said I'm not welcoming it. But I also distinguish
           | between copying in terms of implementing the same
           | protocol/standard and copying an innovative product that is
           | unique (or was unique when it came out). I don't think in
           | this discussion there is a right or wrong but I think that if
           | you put 10 years of thinking into a concept and another
           | person just copies it it's just not fair.
        
             | tthun wrote:
             | Low-code database builders have been around for a long time
             | , Airtable did not come up with this concept, just a slick
             | UX/ implementation of one.
             | 
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HCL_Domino
        
       | tomerbd wrote:
       | What is the benefit of using such a solution rather than a
       | standard database like sqlite or posgresql perhaps with some
       | automatic api on top?
        
       | OmegaPG wrote:
       | If I use the self hosted software now, how to keep it up to date?
       | Also if they start charging, how will it be different than
       | AirTable? I get the privacy aspect of self hosted solutions but
       | there is a huge overhead cost of maintaining it and updating it.
       | I am not even sure self hosted is safer than SaaS.
        
         | bram2w wrote:
         | It depends a little bit on how you are going self host it.
         | There are updating instructions at the bottom of
         | https://baserow.io/docs/guides/installation/install-on-ubunt...
         | and https://baserow.io/docs/guides/installation/install-on-
         | cloud... We are going to make it much easier to self host and
         | update in the future.
        
           | zwayhowder wrote:
           | You lost me when there wasn't a docker image. I'd strongly
           | encourage having one that can be dropped into a docker-
           | compose config.
        
             | bram2w wrote:
             | There are going to be production ready Docker images soon.
        
         | vineyardmike wrote:
         | You know (probably) that the binary you download and self host
         | will always run. You can avoid updates, and avoid future paid
         | requirements too.
         | 
         | It's more work, but if you host something on LAN you eschew
         | many security concerns. You can more easily track what it's
         | pinging and who it talks to. If it's open source, you can audit
         | and adjust the code too.
         | 
         | It's all about priorities.
        
         | ajsnigrutin wrote:
         | You update the software. If they start charging, you don't
         | care, because you can keep your free copy. I don't know about
         | the "huge overhead cost" of running an update now and then.
         | 
         | ...but, the data is yours, the software is yours, the solution
         | built on it is yours. Noone can raise the prices, noone can
         | give unrealistic/stupid limits (eg. how many queries can you do
         | per month in your paid/free package,...), and noone can take
         | your data away.
        
           | chaps wrote:
           | "I don't know about the "huge overhead cost" of running an
           | update now and then."
           | 
           | Clearly you've never had to go to hours and hours of change
           | management meetings for a minor release.
        
             | ajsnigrutin wrote:
             | If the 'frontend' stays the same (and i literally mean all
             | frontend, from GUI to APIs), then noone cares.
             | 
             | If something changes, you atleast can delay the change,
             | until you fix other components (or maybe even not update,
             | if it's some internal stuff), because with SaaS, you have
             | no say about it.
             | 
             | Even if the project becomes unsupported, you can still run
             | the old version, until you find 'something new' (or again,
             | keep runing the old for internal stuff).
             | 
             | If you build anything around a SaaS provider, they alway
             | have yu by the balls,... be it with ever changing pricing
             | or killing the project, "just because" [0]
             | 
             | [0] https://killedbygoogle.com/
        
               | chaps wrote:
               | The moment that a major security bug is discovered in
               | your app, you will need to upgrade it. It's not as simple
               | as just saying that you can still run the old version.
               | That's just one issue of many. There are many, many more
               | hidden costs than you're giving free software credit for.
        
               | ajsnigrutin wrote:
               | Of course... if it's outside facing... internal stuff can
               | be delayed (and often is).... but again, that's why you
               | pay admins for. Usually feature updates (api changes) and
               | security updates are kept separate (unless you waited
               | with the feature update, until there was a security
               | issue).... but again, the thing is still yours.
               | 
               | it's like a taxi vs a free car + free parts, and all you
               | need is gas and time to do service.
        
               | chaps wrote:
               | "but again, that's why you pay admins for"
               | 
               | Yes, that's the exact point I'm making. You have to pay
               | someone to manage something like this. The point (edit:
               | okay, not _the_ point) of this sort of software is to try
               | to minimize those costs, but at the end of the day you
               | still have to pay for them, and often even more.
        
               | ajsnigrutin wrote:
               | You still need an admin, even if you use SaaS... someone
               | has to make the SaaS work... this just adds an aditional
               | update every now and then to their workload.
        
       | decentrality wrote:
       | One great way to get this into the mainstream would likely be to
       | clone and adapt `feathers.js` support for `Airtable`:
       | 
       | https://github.com/jonascript/feathers-airtable
        
       | FPGAhacker wrote:
       | "Eerly premium" should be "Early premium" on the front page.
        
         | bram2w wrote:
         | Thank you for notifying me of that typo. We will update that
         | soon :).
        
         | ochronus wrote:
         | Or "eerily premium"
        
       | igammarays wrote:
       | As a person who literally works on the Airtable API for a living,
       | and founded an Airtable-based startup, I knew this was coming.
       | Airtable deserves to be replaced by a good open-source
       | alternative, for the way they've treated their customers. They
       | built a great product that people love, and then made the pricing
       | inaccessible to small business, ignored the API for years (I've
       | been developing on top of the API since 2015, barely any
       | improvements since then), piled on shit that no one asked for
       | (Apps/Blocks) instead of working on the API that everyone asked
       | for, made certain essential features like the metadata API
       | invite-only, and are generally self-centered and obnoxious in
       | their messaging (just see their blog post describing the launch
       | of Airtable Blocks/Apps - "A half billion apps are about to be
       | created.") Yes, those half-billion apps on top of Airtable will
       | be made, but not on the original Airtable platform, because
       | they've closed their software down and made interoperability a
       | pain, and hid basic features like apps and record colouring
       | behind a paywall. Meanwhile, they don't know how to build an app
       | that can handle more than 50,000 rows and there are feature-
       | request threads that are literally years old. LISTEN TO YOUR
       | CUSTOMERS, dammit.
       | 
       | Airtable could've easily been the next Excel if they had just not
       | been so tight-fisted, protective, greedy and aloof. There are
       | plenty ways to monetize such a great product if they had just
       | allowed people to use it. I have a feeling like their leadership
       | was inspired by Steve Jobs, but they blindly applied Apple-esque
       | walled garden philosophies to a domain where it makes no sense,
       | because no one can actually use a cloud product without a proper
       | API (operating systems are a different story).
       | 
       | I complain even though my life literally depends on Airtable.
       | Shameless plug: I'm the founder of Fintable.io, a bootstrapped
       | startup that syncs your bank accounts to Airtable, and I have no
       | other source of income. I love Airtable, but I'm just sick and
       | tired of their shitty castrated API that can't even stay up
       | reliably. Maybe this is the trigger that will cause somebody over
       | there to wake up, because it isn't too late for Airtable to win
       | at this game (and I hope they do).
        
       | ricklamers wrote:
       | I really like this trend of self hosted apps that make it
       | possible to avoid shipping sensitive data to third parties.
       | 
       | Baserow looks so polished, very impressive for such an early
       | stage project. Loved how easy it was to get the auto generated
       | API working too!
        
       | agustif wrote:
       | Looks promising will try out.
       | 
       | Glad to see competition in the space.
        
       | dbrereton wrote:
       | There's an interesting trend of open source clones of popular
       | products. Most recent one that comes to mind is Athens [0] which
       | is an open source clone of Roam Research.
       | 
       | The business model is always that people who really want it for
       | free can self host, and people who don't want to deal with the
       | hassle will pay for hosting. Seems like a reasonable strategy to
       | me.
       | 
       | [0] https://github.com/athensresearch/athens
        
         | toyg wrote:
         | _> an interesting trend of open source clones of popular
         | products_
         | 
         | Well, it's a "trend" as old as dirt, really. The "Linux
         | desktop" was, for years, little more than a series of clones of
         | closed-source Windows apps. Arguably even the original GNU
         | programs started as clones of existing Unix tools. It's
         | unsurprising that this would later happen for web-based
         | services too.
         | 
         |  _> The business model is always that people who really want it
         | for free can self host, and people who don 't want to deal with
         | the hassle will pay for hosting._
         | 
         | Again, pretty old news - Wordpress is almost 20 years old at
         | this point.
         | 
         | The problem of this setup, though, is that the commercial
         | version will typically set the roadmap and priorities, while
         | the open version will end up lagging.
        
         | knubie wrote:
         | I'm reminded of Jonathan Blow's rant about open source software
         | at the beginning of this video:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLVjSeusPYg
        
           | elyobo wrote:
           | That video's oddly edited; is there some context which makes
           | him seem less... nuts?
        
           | alisonkisk wrote:
           | Blow is a great programmer but his criticism makes no sense
           | to me. "It's elitist and undemocratic that someone gets to
           | decide whether they want to ship you code". what??
        
             | nuggien wrote:
             | he was criticizing the idea of pull requests. You could
             | spend a lot of time adding code and submit a pull request
             | and the maintainer of the project gets to decide whether
             | they want your code or not. If they don't, then you just
             | wasted all your time.
        
         | ShakataGaNai wrote:
         | I think it's great that it's happening. Sure (for example)
         | Baserow will never be as awesome as Airtable... but for users
         | with extremely small use cases, hobbyists, or tiny startups -
         | it works out. They aren't the niche Airtable wants and they
         | can't afford it either.
        
         | travisjungroth wrote:
         | I wonder if there's a business model of paid hosting of other
         | companies open source alternatives...
        
           | shagie wrote:
           | That sounds like Bitnami - https://bitnami.com . For example
           | - https://bitnami.com/stack/redmine
        
           | mikkom wrote:
           | You mean AWS?
        
             | travisjungroth wrote:
             | Yeah, something like that. But for all these SaaS apps.
        
               | toomuchtodo wrote:
               | Heroku?
        
               | e12e wrote:
               | Sandstorm kind of tried that (https://sandstorm.io).
        
             | viraptor wrote:
             | AWS is a few layers below that service. You can't tell AWS
             | "give me a domain with baserow installed". Or at least not
             | without going through the layers of describing how it's
             | mapped to actual compute resources and how is deployed.
        
               | ncallaway wrote:
               | Yea, but you _can_ tell AWS  "give me a domain my (MySQL
               | | Postgres | Elasticsearch | ...) installed, which I
               | think was the parent poster's joke
        
           | dopeboy wrote:
           | This was the promise behind sandstorm.io
        
         | flylib wrote:
         | anyone know of a GitHub list of open source clones of popular
         | products?
        
           | ianwalter wrote:
           | This is kind of close to that: https://github.com/awesome-
           | selfhosted/awesome-selfhosted
        
         | edjrage wrote:
         | I wasn't aware of Athens, thanks! There's also Logseq:
         | https://github.com/logseq/logseq and a few others, but I forgot
         | their names.
        
           | mkl wrote:
           | More info on Athens and alternatives in this discussion:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26316793
        
         | hanniabu wrote:
         | I've noticed this as well and I really think there's a market
         | for a simple self-hosted cloud server. Many people aren't
         | comfortable with managing a server and all the tech aspects
         | that come with it. What I envision is a bring-your-own server
         | solution that provides recommended specs (or buy from the
         | company as a funding source) and similar to the app store you
         | can download containerized app, let's say from docker, with 0
         | technical knowledge. Just a nice UI and all the functionality
         | automated so the user doesn't have to do anything but click a
         | button and maybe a settings page for really basic stuff. There
         | can be an open library that just links to docker hub or
         | whatever other platform as well as a curated library. It should
         | all be encrypted and secure by default. It should all serve on
         | localhost with an option screen to specify UI or hookup your
         | own domain to access remotely. Again, UX is key here to
         | abstract everything away from the user and make it stupid
         | simple to use. From what I've seen, people would love to host
         | their own services but either don't have the technical know-how
         | or don't want to deal with managing their own server or AWS or
         | whatever other droplet solution.
        
           | mappu wrote:
           | You may be interested in https://sandstorm.io/
        
             | oezi wrote:
             | Is Baserow on Sandstorm.io already? That would be awesome.
        
           | popinman322 wrote:
           | Isn't this the PaaS model?
        
             | hanniabu wrote:
             | Sort of but not really. On thinking about it some more for
             | the average user, you'd really want to sell a ready-to-go
             | unit so they don't even have to deal with the initial
             | computer setup and platform download/install because I know
             | that's still way more than a lot of people would want to do
             | or feel comfortable doing. They want something that they
             | own, with good privacy, that just works, and is maintenance
             | free.
             | 
             | I imagine this company selling a visually appealing unit
             | similar to how xbox and playstation aim to be more of an
             | elegant accent piece than a clunky electronic box. This way
             | when the user gets the product they just open, plug it in,
             | create an account and password, wait for it to initialize,
             | and then you're good to go and can start immediately
             | downloading apps. Then just download an accompanying app on
             | your phone/desktop/computer and connect to your own
             | personal cloud where you own all your software and data.
             | Could even sell upgradeable units for a premium that have
             | an easy access panel to just swap or plug in additional RAM
             | or SSD modules.
        
               | loulouxiv wrote:
               | Such a system would be considerably preferable over cloud
               | for things like backup of your phone files and photos
               | (bandwidth), direct sharing of voluminous files
               | (bandwith, no need to wait for upload to complete),
               | videoconferencing (latency)
        
               | ta988 wrote:
               | Sounds a bit like what synology is offering. The only
               | problem is maintenance of that. You now have millions of
               | boxes that will fail randomly for various reasons (bug,
               | bit flipping, hardware error). And now you have a furious
               | user that can't restore from a broken backup and doesnt
               | know how to repair (if even possible)...
        
           | crucialfelix wrote:
           | https://cloud.google.com/marketplace
           | 
           | Google cloud marketplace allows you to launch all kinds of
           | open source solutions with a click. This includes the setup
           | for databases.
           | 
           | Though it's not a place that a non technical user would think
           | to go, and I expect it's not really as simple as it promises.
           | The devil is always in the details.
        
             | hanniabu wrote:
             | > Though it's not a place that a non technical user would
             | think to go, and I expect it's not really as simple as it
             | promises.
             | 
             | Exactly and you also don't own the data or have any
             | expectation of privacy.
        
         | dexter89_kp3 wrote:
         | There is also Obsidian, which does not compete with Roam
         | Research directly on all features (but comes pretty close), but
         | is locally hosted. Great option for those seeking privacy of
         | their notes and thoughts.
        
           | ncallaway wrote:
           | The thing I love about Obsidian is it's just a directory of
           | markdown files. Still totally useful if Obsidian disappeared
           | tomorrow.
           | 
           | I also just setup a cron job to daily check for changes, and
           | if there are git commit and git push and now I can access my
           | notes from any device with a browser.
        
         | zwayhowder wrote:
         | I work at a university, we are legally not allowed to host a
         | lot of our data outside of our country. While I'd love to use
         | tools like Airtable & Roam we can't. As those vendors aren't
         | interested in hosting in a small backwater country like
         | Australia </sarcasm> an open source alternative I can host
         | myself is amazing.
         | 
         | But I'd gladly pay more to have someone else manage hosting...
        
         | sevencolors wrote:
         | I think it's a smart way to make money with open-source
         | projects. Charge for hosting and premium add-ons. For me Gatsby
         | comes to mind. The framework will always be free but they have
         | a build, CI and hosting platform that makes it easy. And i
         | don't mind paying money for.
        
           | piggybox wrote:
           | Open source as a marketing tool
        
           | tjbiddle wrote:
           | Plus, some occasional free development from PRs.
           | 
           | The number of times where I would be HAPPY to work on a
           | project for free to fix an issue or add a feature I want - I
           | couldn't count.
           | 
           | Instead, it's always reaching out to support and "Thanks for
           | your feature request - it's not currently on our road map,
           | but I've added it to our list."
        
         | tangjeff0 wrote:
         | Hey! Founder of Athens here, we just launched on HN 2 weeks
         | ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26316793
         | 
         | Agree with your comment. What we've found is that most people
         | don't actually want to self-host, even technical users who can.
         | But they all want the _optionality_ to self-host, which you don
         | 't have with most SaaS's like Notion or Roam. This is doubley
         | important for "second brains", apps where you brain dump your
         | closest thoughts.
         | 
         | As Balaji has said, given the choice, "you'd always pick open
         | source over a _comparable_ proprietary equivalent. "
         | 
         | https://twitter.com/balajis/status/1365212646945923074
        
       | high_byte wrote:
       | Self hosted Always free
       | 
       | I like that pricing model
        
         | jeffgreco wrote:
         | Though they're already laying the groundwork for "premium"
         | features like admin tools, role based permissions, kanban and
         | calendar views which would be paid subscriptions for self-
         | hosted options too.
         | 
         | I always worry that essential features for tools like these
         | will get bumped into one of those paid tiers.
        
           | toomuchtodo wrote:
           | The benefit of having the self hosted always free option is
           | your data isn't locked into the service.
           | 
           | Price is important, but data sovereignty more so imho. If a
           | vendor is no longer meeting your needs, or the deal becomes
           | less fair (you know the whole "raising prices once your
           | business relies on them"), you can export and bounce.
           | 
           | More of this _chef kiss_
        
             | clusterfish wrote:
             | Right... That's why the vast majority of people using self
             | hosted open source don't pay for it. It's about the money
             | for most people.
             | 
             | You can export and bounce from airtable too, you know.
             | 
             | Even when the service itself does not provide easy export
             | there's often a free third party tool or browser extension
             | to enable data export.
        
             | high_byte wrote:
             | exactly. I get the point that corporations tend to "extort"
             | users by offering supposedly-core features only under
             | premium, but on the other hand this one is a startup and
             | gotta make ends meet somehow. so far I'm fine with that
        
           | boomskats wrote:
           | In their defense, their upcoming 'premium' features are
           | clearly labelled on the Feature Roadmap. I really like that.
           | 
           | Great job OP!
        
       | elwell wrote:
       | After trying it out, this is unabashedly a clone of Airtable, but
       | I couldn't find any apps/add-ons (yet?). To me, the apps,
       | automations, and ability to create custom apps are what make
       | Airtable so powerful. I did see mention of support for third-
       | party plugins on the info site, but not when I tested it out; too
       | early I guess.
        
         | gervwyk wrote:
         | A nice API might be all that you need. That and maybe something
         | like https://lowdefy.com to easily put a UI in front of it.
        
       | mjthompson wrote:
       | MIT licence? Haven't they learned from others' mistakes? This
       | sort of stuff should be AGPL licenced.
        
       | f430 wrote:
       | What does airtable do that excel can't? curious as to what makes
       | airtable appealing and where this self hosted has advantages
        
       | johnchristopher wrote:
       | A few years ago there were many Airtables articles on HN and it
       | seemed to me it was promoted as a table/database management of
       | some sort for non-technical people.
       | 
       | But now I see Airtable is used a lot in marketing departments and
       | I caught a glimpse of a screen the other day and my marketing
       | colleague's Airtable dashboard looked like a mix between Trello
       | and messaging.
       | 
       | Can someone explain to me how Airtable is being used by non-
       | technical people ?
       | 
       | And can Baserow fill that role too or is it a database thingy
       | first and foremost ?
       | 
       | edit: does it have anything to do with templates ?
        
         | wodenokoto wrote:
         | The MMX cad team, is keeping track of some 10.000 parts used in
         | a marble machine instrument being build by Swedish musician
         | Martin Molin.
         | 
         | You can see some clips at the linked timestamp where they use
         | air table. Looks really cool.
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYFdNwXXcac&t=782s
        
           | tylermenezes wrote:
           | It does a lot more, now, too! We're even tracking all the
           | community suggestions and ideas made in Discord in Airtable
           | now.
        
         | eightysixfour wrote:
         | With regards to the airtable question, it has the potential to
         | replace almost any CRUD app in a company. Internally we needed
         | to drastically extend our ERP implementation to handle a large
         | custom project and instead of dedicating a dev team to working
         | on it we were able to build the needs out in airtable and then
         | add a few API hooks here and there to the ERP. It was a great
         | success and probably took 1/20th the time since the people that
         | needed to use it were moderately technical and could define and
         | build the workflow as they went. Now less technical people are
         | being onboarded onto it which has, for the most part, worked
         | well. I think the growth areas are going to come from things
         | like stacker.app that make it easier to wrap Airtable databases
         | up in a simple UI.
         | 
         | In general, you can think of it like a better realized version
         | of Access, it brings relational databases into an Excel like
         | view that semi-technical people can understand, then wraps it
         | up with a few excellent built-in views like a kanban board, a
         | simple form, and a calendar that non-technical people can
         | understand. It has definite limitations but an easy to use API
         | to expand upon it when you need it.
         | 
         | I'm really bullish on it after the project and have moved a
         | bunch of personal stuff that was using external services onto a
         | single airtable instance (contact management/CRM, personal
         | project tracking, etc.)
        
         | PebblesRox wrote:
         | I do bookkeeping and office backend administration for a small
         | sales company. I use Airtable as a semi-technical person to
         | automate processes we used to drive by hand in a google
         | spreadsheet - the main one being commission calculation.
         | 
         | I was able to put this together in the 10-15 hours per week
         | that remains after I finish my core job responsibilities.
         | 
         | I want to learn how to do things the 'real-code' way but the
         | learning curve is steep! Low code tools like Airtable let me
         | use the limited time I have available to get something up and
         | running. I can add improvements incrementally as my skills
         | expand.
         | 
         | When I first set up the Airtable, I was importing data manually
         | from our CRM and from our accounting software. Now I have an
         | awful Postman collection rigged up that does the importing for
         | me (but I have to click a button everyday to run it).
         | 
         | I discovered Pipedream a few months ago and have used that to
         | set up an email system that queries the Airtable database and
         | returns relevant records. A sales rep enters an opportunity and
         | gets an email with a list of leads tailored to that particular
         | opportunity. This incentivizes the reps to add their data to
         | the system.
         | 
         | My next project is to set up emails to notify our new freight
         | coordinator when a load needs to ship, that will query multiple
         | related records and give her all the info she needs in one
         | email, plus cc'ing the sales rep on the deal so they can
         | coordinate.
         | 
         | Our CRM almost does all of these things but there's always some
         | limitation that holds us back, if we're just trying to use the
         | out-of-the box tools.
         | 
         | As someone who aspires to be a developer but is not there yet
         | skill-wise, I really appreciate the low-code tools that let me
         | stitch together horrible Frankenstein monsters of Javascript to
         | let me automate some of the monkey work that I would otherwise
         | be doing by hand.
         | 
         | This then frees up my time to expand my skill-set and learn
         | better ways of doing things. (Such as node.js on a Heroku
         | server so I can put my javascript all in one place instead of
         | scattered throughout all the little places you can put code in
         | Postman.)
        
       | tmpz22 wrote:
       | Gorgeous landing page. Is it a template or did you handroll that?
       | Kudos either way.
        
         | bram2w wrote:
         | Thanks! It is not a template, I designed it from scratch.
        
           | rochak wrote:
           | That's impressive. Baserow feels like a labor of love. Will
           | definitely try contributing.
        
       | jerrygoyal wrote:
       | nice project.. Will add it to my open-source alternatives list
       | gourav.io/clone-wars ps: any particular reason for not choosing
       | GitHub?
        
       | revskill wrote:
       | The core of a sustainable software to me is in the ORM layer.
       | This is where Ruby on Rails or similar framework failed terribly.
       | 
       | One classic example is: How do your ORM/libraries provide you
       | tool to define a calculable "name" field, which is equal to
       | "firstName + lastName", with option to store it as a database
       | field ?
        
       | mhd wrote:
       | How good is it at recreating the DabbleDB demo?
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wZmYMWKLkY
        
         | samblr wrote:
         | Looks like Airtable took a lot of 'inspiration' from DabbleDB!
        
         | faichai wrote:
         | DabbleDB was way ahead of its time.
        
           | mhd wrote:
           | Yup, and it was built in an interesting way, if I remember
           | correctly. Using the continuation-based Smalltalk Seaside
           | framework.
        
             | bfm wrote:
             | A quote by Avi Bryant regarding continuations in Drabble DB
             | "... in Dabble we essentially don't use continuations
             | although we do use Seaside"
             | 
             | You can read the whole interview on
             | https://www.infoq.com/interviews/bryant-smalltalk-dabbledb/
        
       | garduque wrote:
       | I love Airtable but not the monthly invoice that comes with it.
       | Signed up for your email newsletter so please do remind me when
       | you get further along. Things like csv export and all of the
       | pending field types are a necessity before I could even consider
       | switching even my most basic bases.
        
       | rvz wrote:
       | Good. We really need more self-hosted open source alternatives
       | like Baserow.
        
         | high_byte wrote:
         | Open-SaaS!
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | Does "SaaS" read as "Self as a Service"?
        
             | high_byte wrote:
             | It's both open-source and software-as-a-service if service
             | is required. but it's still open-source if you just want to
             | self host. I see people did not get that.
        
           | [deleted]
        
       | showerst wrote:
       | FYI if anyone from baserow is reading this, I tried following
       | your docs at https://baserow.io/docs/guides%2Fdemo-environment
       | and can't clone your git repo -- I'm getting permission denied.
       | 
       | Once I looked up the HTTP url it worked fine, so I think you may
       | have a permissions issue in gitlab.
        
         | bram2w wrote:
         | Thanks for notifying me. I was not aware that it is not
         | possible to clone the repo that way without being signed into
         | GitLab. I will change the url in the docs to
         | `https://gitlab.com/bramw/baserow.git`.
        
           | showerst wrote:
           | No problem! FYI the rest of the demo worked fine, pretty
           | slick!
        
       | juliend2 wrote:
       | This is very cool. I love airtable and I'm pretty sure I will
       | install Baserow soon just to try it out.
       | 
       | Shameless plug: I just did a quick blog post listing that kind of
       | products open source alternatives:
       | https://www.juliendesrosiers.com/2021/03/13/open-source-self...
       | 
       | It's becoming more common these days to see serious businesses go
       | open source from the start and gaining significant traction. Like
       | Plausible, Gitlab, Bitwarden, etc.
        
         | mekster wrote:
         | Plausible looks way too simple to be GA alternative.
        
       | aszen wrote:
       | Is there any application that provides similar features but can
       | be integrated into an existing web application. We want our users
       | to be able to do similar things for their internal reporting
       | within our own application. The kind of integration I'm looking
       | for is an iframe embedded into the application ui and APIs for
       | readily accessing common data
        
       | rnapoles wrote:
       | Hi nice job, If you could integrate OAuth2 into it, it would be
       | quite comfortable. I hate having to register manually.
        
       | aschampion wrote:
       | See also https://seatable.io/
        
         | kennydude wrote:
         | Seatable doesn't appear to be open source, and for some reason
         | the website is incredibly janky on Firefox
        
           | mekster wrote:
           | Server component seems proprietary but you can easily run it
           | via docker.
           | 
           | https://github.com/seatable/seatable#license
        
         | mekster wrote:
         | I never see a mention of this even at any of the "awesome"
         | lists but this is really well built and has more features than
         | baserow.
         | 
         | Baserow's mobile support is quite poor but Seatable does it
         | very well and I've been using it for several months and love
         | it.
        
         | vineyardmike wrote:
         | This is self-hosted but I'm pretty sure it's not Open Source
         | (or even available source) like Baserow
        
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