[HN Gopher] Is a long-dismissed forgery the oldest known Biblica...
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Is a long-dismissed forgery the oldest known Biblical manuscript?
Author : diodorus
Score : 83 points
Date : 2021-03-13 18:06 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| prox wrote:
| Is there a translation of the text anywhere? Search just brings
| up alternatives for this news article.
| quercusa wrote:
| If this sort of thing interests you, check out _Veritas: A
| Harvard Professor, a Con Man and the Gospel of Jesus 's Wife_ by
| Ariel Sabar. Interesting story and a great read - just when you
| think you understand it, a new layer appears.
| benjohnson wrote:
| "And in a 2018 scholarly article, he used similar approach to
| advance a startling claim: that an earlier version of Leviticus,
| rather than forbidding sex between men, had actually permitted
| it."
|
| I'm a poor scholar of the ancient Jewish faith, but explicit
| permission of male on male sexual intercourse in the five books
| seems a bit of a stretch.
|
| While I'd like to judge the merits of this man's claims, this has
| echos of the whole "Jesus wife" fiasco of seeking attention by
| being edgy.
| svat wrote:
| (Disclaimer: I have no interest in this matter; my interest
| here is only in the structure of the argument.)
|
| If you follow the link to the 2018 "startling claim"
| (https://archive.is/QAa5x), what's presented there is not a
| claim of "explicit permission" as you say, but a reasoning from
| the principle that "For example, a sign declaring an office to
| be closed on Sundays suggests that the office is open on all
| other days of the week". (That is, in that article Idan
| Dershowitz suggests that an earlier version of Leviticus 18
| forbade homosexual _incest_ , which if true would in turn lead
| to the conclusion that homosexuality wasn't forbidden _in
| general_.)
| R0b0t1 wrote:
| I have also seen it construed the original prohibition was
| against pedastery as practiced by the Greeks, not
| homosexuality in general.
| [deleted]
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| Guilt by association does not mean Dershowitz is necessarily
| being duped.
| leth_dev wrote:
| Hypothesis: the physical medium was a forgery, but the text was
| not. In other words: it was a copy of a genuine manuscrit. That
| would explain why the physical scroll appears to be an obvious
| forgery containing, retrospectively, a perplexing text.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| your qualifications for presenting an hypothesis are...
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| and why has this one been flagged? are there some people here
| who just enjoy flagging every single mildly controversial thing
| i say? (yes. this one will only get [CENSORED] since they will
| feel too foolish to flag...)
| [deleted]
| snambi wrote:
| Its probably a hoax.
| rrll22 wrote:
| Google Translate:
| rrll22 wrote:
| And he said unto them, Send me, I pray thee, into the river
| Will help and be captured naat] forest and sit in the atri
| cities. And the king of Bashan went out to meet him at Salah
| And they beat him until he had not left him Where the whole
| rabbit cable woke up in hot trouble Their door and bohemian Mad
| and all the cities of Mishar and all of Gilad and all of Bashaz
| Ad Selka and Edrei .... Eretz Rafam ... Nam Is that the cloud
| of the king of Bashan Titar Harpas remains. He turned and drove
| off and sat down in front of Bat Pe'a. And went out At that
| time you built a father and women of state towards you And call
| upon [them] to eat their altar and eat their altar And drink of
| their form, and worship them, and worship them The women of the
| state and you will cling to a person with a gap that day And
| let them also be angry with you and win over you at the same
| time That sieve of Nadla and peace from you I will breathe for
| bread The state and the stain you with the sword and sat From
| them the slaughter will be very much and the sieve will stop.
| And I commanded them at that time to teach you Hakam and their
| trial to do in the land which they passed through Her name is
| her. Take care you do not add to His commandment and you shall
| not be deprived of it. Save your money Forget it and make a
| statue for yourself and appoint a pattern Every symbol whose
| name resounds in the land Stretches and which basses
| underground. And hera Epic in you and I chased the) as soon as
| Metz This benefit land. Knowledge. .. today you will save. His
| statutes and commandments to drive will be better for you (and
| for him) Prolong their days on the earth, which I will fight
| for your God Gave you. Hear Israel Israel their God our God |
| Other and love. I will fight your God with all your heart! And
| with all your soul to Sad-Zad and be their thing God Which I
| pluck today on your heart and you have memorized To your son
| and you spoke to them on your Sabbath in your daughter and in
| your walk. On the way and in your bed and in your bed and you
| tied them to a sign. By you and were under your eye and a
| reporter (Tam] For the deeds of your daughter and your value
| because God has cut you off You swore with the sword on the day
| of the crowd and I walked the beach I will fight and me (you)
| .. .. at this time because you have been redeemed
|
| From the fire and not. . . . The echo to hand you a thing I
| will be wise to say +. 11 4 1 1
|
| and -... Hear Israel, you have passed today The Jordan to come
| to the network of their nobles and themselves awake You grew up
| and in hot trouble you will not say in your heart Most of these
| hot Gentiles could not register no Look at them remembering
| what God did To Pharaoh and to all their affliction, Yahweh
| will do no harm Your enemy because their God is the past before
| you fire ate. He will destroy them and destroy them tomorrow
| before you> too The leprosy will be sent to them by God until
| it is lost.
|
| The ghetto that remains in front of you is only fire and ash
| His commandments and his law and his imitations which I am from
| Jesus and you knew today that you are not in your righteousness
| God Your God has given you the land of Hua to inherit it In me
| with a hard decapitation from the heat that you came out. From
| Egypt to Joses from Mesopotamia you orphaned them. God. By the
| sword of the day I ascended the mountain to Kozat the The two
| hydrangeas and the leaves were written by all of them The
| testimony of God is with you on the Mount of Fire Bios
| audience. . . . You whipped them and did You have a tormentor
| and I will fall before God chooses Haber Kash ... And two damp
| in my hand and see You have sinned and I will break the two
| dampness before your eyes And I will pray for you at that time
| four days And Arbaam Lela. And as incense and in mass and in
| burial . The lust from Maram seals your God> while That one
| said Elham Eli sculpted you two damp Their stone as rhesus and
| ascended to me the mountain and the mountain. And two [sluggish
| shooting. And God will smite them on the damp The ten things
| which I will speak unto you in the mountain The crowd will be
| disgusted with me and they are Baran Asher I did and sanctified
| Barnea in saying to me God went up And they shall tread down
| the earth from the top of your mouth to the gods of your God
| And you did not go up and you did not hear easily and said
| these To guard you and I will pray for you while standing on
| the mountain Arba'am Yom and Arba'am Lela in Gadaks + Vishte.
| God also at that time and did not corrupt you Bow down not in
| your righteousness your God has given you power to do. Corps. .
| . (Only the desire of God) in your father for love You have
| chosen a creator after them from all the people + [Because
| their God] your God is the God [!) Of their God And the lord of
| the Lord God the man and the visible (he A] went and is the one
| who did the magnification with you. And the visible. Your
| father went down in peace | To their distress she was moved to
| be a bone and a multitude of people - because but [If] we keep
| the whole commandment which I have The mitzvah today is to make
| Ahacham for love To walk in all his ways and in all his
| imitation. And leave them. All the people who place all who
| will brief all Runlchem. Bo - will not stabilize. I [Q) before
| you is honest P: Your sharpness and whim will be all over the
| land Ashner was briefed on it. See you have given before you
| Today bless and curse the blessing if you hear Do not obey me
| and imitate) and the curse if you do not hear And ye departed
| from the way which I commanded you this day [And was. For God
| hath brought them unto the land of Asher You came to her name
| and gave the blessing On Mt. (Grom) and the curse on Mt. (What)
| past the Jordan through the sun In the land of the Canaanites
| we were destroyed. nlnl at. Elani shows up. And these will
| stand on the candle Ebal] Rauchen and Bolen [And the Haggadah
| which Dan and Naphtali. And these will stand on the harp Gross
| Shemen and Judah and Issachar Menashe and Ephraim And Benjamin.
| And the Levites stood against the mountain, and were smitten
| And said with a loud voice [b) The soft man who will love Elham
| Elerno and even to Baro will bow down and with him alone Will
| pass and answer all the people] and said Amen> Bless
|
| Ha; there is one who will sanctify the seventh day and sit down
| And all the people mocked him, and said, Amen. Blessed Haish]
| Respect Abu and his mother and all the people answered and said
| Amen. Bless [e) a man who will not sting or gamble Soul meadow
| and answered artist. Bless the man who did not He shall defile
| one another's wife, and they shall answer every one of them
| Artist. Bless the man who will not [envy the other They
| answered (all the people and said Am. B! Soft man Who will not
| swear by [Q) who to lie and answer all the people | And said
| Atan. Bless the man who will not deny And Lana will lie to one
| another and all the people will answer and say Amen. Blessed
| [the man] who did not raise his eye to H. [Razkesh The whole
| people shuddered and answered and said Amen. The man's knee Who
| will love Renezhu Nuenuz all the people and said Artist . Bless
| the man who will establish all my words This warning to (Eshet)
| and you and all the people answered And said Amen. And the
| Levites gathered and answered [and said in-easy Ram Raf if he
| hears you will easily hear your God preserve Then do all his
| commandments and come upon you all Blessing God bless you you
| burn bless you In the flesh you bless the tenach and the rest
| you bless the fruit in your belly. And the fruit of thy ground
| which dwelleth: | You are in Bach and Blessed are you when you
| go out will God give you | Thy enemies shall swear before thee.
| "In every deed of your hand, God will sanctify him for a holy
| people and see. All the peoples of the earth and those who see
| you will open their mouths to you The name to be monitored;
| Your country is in trouble) Noim (many and nata to: a nat /
| lova And be [up] and shall not be. [Lumta -> + What .... [a]
| your daughter .- .. (The halzozom were converted to Panna (M.
| Gogd Har Ebal and Yanuo Tiam) Ro (Bekel Renam] Arr HaNeich
| Asher (Yesh / H. Panszel And Metka. The [Indian] act of
| deafness was answered by all the people Nakru a) from r (r the
| man a: a minister will do Craft on the seventh day to desecrate
| and all the people answered And (Mero Amen A) Rer Makla Abu and
| his mother answered All the people and said Amen. Arr hits each
| other Secretly and answered all
|
| M and said Amen. Err The man who will approach all the rest of
| his flesh and who. He shall commit adultery with another, and
| shall marry with all Beast and all the people answered and said
| Amen> Arr And all the people answered and said, Amen. Arr the
| man who swears in my name to lie and answer All the people and
| said Amen. Arr took a bribe To move Adushkar in his people and
| all the people answered and said Artist. Arr the man who made a
| goat to The wife of another and to his daughter and to his
| foster-mother] and to all Which to him and all the people
| answered and said Amen. Err The man who will hate the meadow in
| his heart and answer all The people and said Essen. Arr the man
| who did not Arise, all the words of the Lord. You and all the
| people answered and said Amen. Winspo The Levites read aloud
| and will say and was if not You will easily hear your God
| [lesh: Mr. do all His commandment went out and all the curse
| came upon you The goddess Arr you are burning and Ar [r] you
| are in the wilderness Arar Netonach and the rest of you Arar
| fruit in your belly
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| I think the meaning of one or two of the words got lost in
| transalation...
| rrll22 wrote:
| OCR + sentences divided in halves by \n + the usual Google
| Translate
| sorokod wrote:
| Pretty sure rabbit cables were a big deal during late
| bronze age.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| You could probably start a cult with this if you want.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| ....a cult? Wow! Tell me how. I'm listening.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| why on earth was that comment flagged??? why?
| bishop_mandible wrote:
| Does Betteridge's law apply here?
| tgv wrote:
| Does it apply to your question?
|
| Anyway, such discussions continue until they are forgotten, not
| because it arrived at a factual conclusion.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Does it apply to your question?
|
| Since it's it's a law _of headlines_ , and the question in
| question is not a headline, no.
| mahnouel wrote:
| So where can I read the manuscripts? Is there an english
| translation available? Searched for half an hour and didn't find
| anything..
| dotancohen wrote:
| They seem to have been lost over a century ago. There was no
| interest in preserving them, as they were assumed to be
| forgeries.
| sb057 wrote:
| Page 37 (PDF numbering) of this 1958 research paper reproduces
| a version published in an 1883 issue of 'The Athenaeum':
|
| http://images.library.wisc.edu/WI/EFacs/transactions/WT1958/...
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| For anyone clicking through and scrolling to page 37: this is
| in Hebrew, not English. I don't see an English translation
| there.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| That's not Hebrew technically either it uses the Phoenician
| alphabet or a variation of it.
|
| I can read the Dead Sea scrolls I can't read what ever this
| is :(
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| find any transalations into modern hebrew script?
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| ... or English?
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| The original fragments of this text are no longer available after
| it was denounced as a hoax over 150 years ago. This researcher's
| claims are mainly based on the content of the text, which he says
| are echoed by later texts and have multiple coincidences. The
| article says that the researchers who focus on Biblical text
| origins are more convinced and the ones focused on physical
| details of the documents are less convinced as they "contain all
| the hallmarks of a modern forgery." The response is that the
| transcriptions may not be accurate representations of the actual
| fragment.
|
| It all seems very difficult to prove and the implications, a
| version of the Torah with most of the laws removed, just a little
| too convenient. Seems like healthy skepticism is warranted here.
| trasz wrote:
| Too convenient now, but back when it was discovered, it would
| have been way more convenient if its contents fit the
| mainstream consensus at that time instead.
| gumby wrote:
| First of all: the design meme of "scroll a page full to get one
| page of text" must die. I'm trying to read an article not play a
| fucking video game.
|
| I used reader mode and noe of that text was included but I assume
| it was worthless.
| dang wrote:
| I agree but:
|
| " _Please don 't complain about website formatting, back-button
| breakage, and similar annoyances. They're too common to be
| interesting. Exception: when the author is present. Then
| friendly feedback might be helpful._"
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.is/ojHPk
| gandalfian wrote:
| Assuming the biblical source to be fraudulent because it is
| Jewish. You could really tie your brain in knots with that one
| rossdavidh wrote:
| I don't doubt that anti-Semitism had a role, but Shapiro had
| been caught selling forgeries before, so it was not suspicion
| based entirely on him being Jewish.
| fortran77 wrote:
| He was a "convert" to Christianity, so neither Jews nor
| Christians were likely to trust him.
| camjohnson26 wrote:
| Like instances of historical Christian anti-semitism. Got some
| news for you about Jesus...
| [deleted]
| gumby wrote:
| What is the motivation for this:
|
| > Dershowitz's research, _closely guarded until now_... Scholars
| who previewed his findings at a _closed-door seminar_ at Harvard
| in 2019...
|
| Why the secrecy?
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| It is mentioned in the article. Dershowitz feared he might be
| considered a crackpot until he had all the evidence together,
| organized, and presentable at once. Revealing partial research
| before he completed everything would make a less persuasive
| case.
| dang wrote:
| There's also a cloak-and-dagger aspect to scholarship about
| ancient manuscripts, especially scriptures, which pops up in
| various stories here from time to time. Lots of intrigue,
| theft, forgery, factions, and weirdness. Partly this has to
| do with the overlap with the antiquities markets which are
| more...colorful.
|
| The transparency and openness we tend to expect from academic
| research is lacking. Sources are closely guarded, scholars
| don't get to properly check each other's work, and drama
| regularly ensues.
|
| Edit: I was trying to dig up an old thread about some such
| weird controversy involving National Geographic, but my
| memory has disintegrated into little parchment fragments.
| Speaking of cloak-and-dagger, though, I did run across this:
|
| https://www.nationalgeographic.co.uk/history-and-
| civilisatio...
| hyperpape wrote:
| That kind of environment strikes me as really unfortunate
| and contrary to what I'd want to see out of academic work.
|
| Still, as I read your comment though, something popped into
| my head: Andrew Wiles's secrecy when working on Fermat's
| last theorem.
| whakim wrote:
| When I was a graduate student, one of my advisors tried to
| steer me away from focusing on periods of history where
| textual sources are/were more, shall we say, fluid. (In my
| particular case, this was Warring States China - I ended up
| pursuing early medieval Chinese literature so it was moot
| anyways). The point here is that academic careers are made
| or broken and some research is totally discredited while
| other research gains more prominence on the back of the
| vagaries of archaeological finds and determinations of
| authenticity. Within that the world, the stakes are
| _extremely_ high.
| mtalantikite wrote:
| Here is a link to the open access book that the scholar,
| Dershowitz, published. His English translation begins on page
| 156:
|
| https://www.academia.edu/45450947/The_Valediction_of_Moses_A...
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.is/ojHPk
| cybert00th wrote:
| >"But Dershowitz makes an even more dramatic claim. The text,
| which he has reconstructed from 19th-century transcriptions and
| drawings, is not a reworking of Deuteronomy, he argues, but a
| precursor to it, dating to the period of the First Temple, before
| the Babylonian Exile. That would make it the oldest known
| biblical manuscript by far, and an unprecedented window into the
| origins and evolution of the Bible and biblical religion."
|
| That's fine, if that's what it turns out to be - a precursor to
| the book of Deuteronomy. But let no one be so foolish as to claim
| it as holy writ - that was settled a long time ago by the apostle
| John.
| InitialLastName wrote:
| Yes, it would obviously be quite foolish to pretend that _that
| specific_ bit of ancient manuscript is the unchallengable word
| of god when that would controvert _some other_ bit of ancient
| manuscript.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| except Jews don't accept him. so _you_ are the one that looks
| foolish.
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