[HN Gopher] Loom EGA/VGA Comparison
___________________________________________________________________
Loom EGA/VGA Comparison
Author : ingve
Score : 157 points
Date : 2021-03-13 10:16 UTC (12 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.superrune.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.superrune.com)
| jakedata wrote:
| Seeing the original EGA graphics gave me a wave of nostalgia I
| wasn't prepared for. The first time I saw an EGA screen was at
| Radio Shack, setting up a Tandy 1000 system on the sales floor.
| Having only ever used a television as a computer display I was
| absolutely blown away by the clarity of the screen. I ended up
| using my employee discount to purchase a Tandy 1000 TX and
| hacking some weird CRT connection together to get the Tandy 16
| color CGA working in time for college. Couldn't afford EGA at the
| time but I eventually moved up to a Trident VGA adapter when I
| had saved enough. I sort of left gaming behind after Doom and
| Goldenaxe but the early 90s was a fun time.
| kwanbix wrote:
| My first computer was an original IBM PC XT. It had 8088, 640kb
| or RAM, 20MB Seagate HD, and a 360kb dd. Software was so lean
| that we would use smartdrive (or something like that), to use
| 360kb of RAM as a virtual disk and copy the games there so that
| they will load faster.
| tartoran wrote:
| Same with my first PC. It was the around 1991 and that 20Mb
| harddrive seemed like an enormous space, I had so much
| software and games on it. And also had windows 3.0 which
| kindof sucked so I was spending most time in DOS.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| In 1995 I bought my first computer, a very old original IBM
| PC XT for about USD 100. That was my economic limit.
|
| It had a MDA card, no graphics at all. The rest of the
| hardware was as you describe.
|
| I was at least able to exchange the MDA card for a Hercules
| and play some very oldie games on a monochrome monitor.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| The details are foggy, but Loom in particular had some way
| to be playable on monochrome graphics, perhaps with some
| kind of CGA emulator. I have vivid memories of playing
| through this game on my Compaq XT clone in black-and-yellow
| with no mouse. Similar time frame; my family got the
| machine around 93-94 on a pretty low budget, but I learned
| a TON on it until we managed to buy a Pentium 133 a few
| years later.
| trm42 wrote:
| I remember playing some CGA games with some Hercules
| graphics card. There was two TSR programs which made it
| possible to run CGA color games with the yellow-on-black
| Hercules display.
|
| Can't remember the name of the other one but one of them
| was definitively SIMCGA [https://www.pcorner.com/list/GRA
| PHUTI/SIMCGA41.ZIP/INFO/]
|
| Without that awesome program my childhood would've been a
| lot less intresting.
| tonyarkles wrote:
| Solid memory! It was definitely SIMCGA that I had and it
| worked awesome. Thanks for the nostalgia hit!
| Zardoz84 wrote:
| I remember playing some Spiderman game for PC with ega
| graphics (or at least had a 16 color palette) on the 286
| of my father with monochrome (Hercules ?) display.
| jakedata wrote:
| That IBM XT keyboard would be worth $100 today if you could
| find it.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Unfortunately it is long gone. Our living space back then
| was too limited to keep old machines around. Actually, it
| still is.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Loom was the first quest game I ever played, and it still is a
| marvel. replayed it a couple of years ago and was really
| surprised how well it ages - way better than Monkey Island, I
| must say.
|
| This comparison is a very good reminder that severe limitations
| sometimes produce greater results. EGA version looks so much
| better than smoothly colored VGA.
| protomyth wrote:
| I loved Loom but looking at what Wikipedia says were release
| platforms, I'm going to have to dig out the box because I
| didn't have one of those. It is one of the only old video games
| that I still have the box because it was so fun.
| raldi wrote:
| Is there a way to legally play the EGA version these days?
| bishop_mandible wrote:
| I'm a big fan too.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Oh, pleasure to meet you, Transultimate Apostle!
| vaylian wrote:
| How appropriate. You weave like a duck!
|
| Okay, I'm asking you about Monkey Island: Why do you think it
| did not age that well?
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| The interface. All that grid of available actions, just too
| many options. Later quests evolved to have fewer actions (see
| Full Throttle), and later the only option left was general
| 'interact' action.
|
| In this regard Loom was already ahead, with all actions
| replaced by general 'cast' action, and the exact combination
| of notes was the puzzle.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Funnily enough Monkey Island was already redeuced actions,
| Maniac Mansion and Zak Mckracken had even more.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| It is easy to understand, why. Graphical adventure games
| were direct successors of text adventure games, where
| players interacted with the world via text commands, and
| you could have dozens of them without cluttering the
| interface.
| nottorp wrote:
| I've heard Bethesda is working feverishly to remove all
| options from their games and just leave an "interact"
| button.
|
| Your dream will come true in Elder Scrolls VI i guess.
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| It's not my dream per se, but in Monkey Island 1&2, when
| stuck and without an internet walkthrough, it was
| extremely frustrating to try out all the actions on all
| the objects. Full Throttle and Grim Fandango improved on
| that old model immensely, and Loom's interface turned out
| to be 10 years ahead of the curve.
| nottorp wrote:
| You do remember you had to write down the songs right?
| npunt wrote:
| I think that type of thing can really enhance a game if
| done right. It engages more of your senses and gets you
| (literally) thinking outside the box. It makes you feel
| like you're learning and demonstrating a skill, but in
| actuality the skill is just being attentive. The original
| came with a booklet [1] where you could write down the
| spells next to explanations of what they did, seems like
| an excellent way to do it.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/WFl7Q1Io51c?t=370
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Btw when I played it for the first time I just didn't
| understand that the pattern played backwards did the
| opposite. I thought that those are different spells, and
| it made things so much harder. Only many years later when
| I came back to replay Loom I noticed that some patters
| are suspiciously similar... oh boy.
| vaylian wrote:
| For the dancing skeletons?
| Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
| Yeah, the hip bone connected to the arm bone. This song
| is etched in my mind forever.
| pmontra wrote:
| > If you're on a iOS device, you can simply tap the images.
|
| Surprisingly it works on Android too and probability with every
| other mobile OS. s/iOS/touchscreen/ ?
| smrq wrote:
| Fans of Loom might want to check out Brian Moriarty's earlier
| masterpiece, Trinity. It lacks the beautiful EGA graphics, of
| course, but the atmosphere of the game feels very similarly
| moody.
| m34 wrote:
| Nice comparison. I wonder what the differences between both would
| be on real hardware (graphics adapter+CRT screen), especially for
| criteria like vibrancy and apparent smoothness.
|
| I'm aware that emulators nowadays ship with tube distortion and
| scanline filters/shaders, but is there a more "physical
| model"-based approach that properly implements raster and pixel
| over-/afterglow?
| vanderZwan wrote:
| > _Hover the cursor over the images to see the remastered VGA
| version. If you 're on a iOS device, you can simply tap the
| images._
|
| I only see the remastered images for _some_ of the images, is
| that as intended?
| njharman wrote:
| Obviously in minority here (wonder if because never having played
| or seen I have no nostalgia, I'm 50 and played EGA games back
| then ).
|
| But I don't see it. The VGA looks fine. The space scene OA labels
| cheap looks way better to me. The EGA scenes aren't worse or
| better, just highly stylized. They're in different styles. You
| may prefer the minimal style but that doesn't make the other
| style bad.
| ratww wrote:
| Yeah, I also played both and I agree with you. This page also
| cherry-picked the examples. The EGA shading is ok but it
| doesn't work as well in the Glass city, Dragon cave or in the
| the last scene, for example.
| kruxigt wrote:
| The original is truly beautiful. Makes me want to go play some
| old games!
| overgard wrote:
| I think this is a really good example of how adding constraints
| can really enhance creativity. Frequently the worst thing for
| creativity is giving people too much to work with rather than too
| little. The EGA version had to work within strict technical
| constraints, and so the end result is more nuanced than you would
| ever expect. The VGA version didn't have that problem, and so
| it's sloppier and less inspired.
| bstar77 wrote:
| The same is true for Monkey Island 1. The reason the VGA versions
| are inferior is because they replaced Mark Ferrari's amazing
| dithered EGA backgrounds. Additionally, the VGA versions used
| scanned art in spots, so it feels less sharp and detailed. I'm
| not sure who did the VGA treatments, but I doubt it was Ferrari.
| Ferrari did many (if not all) of the backgrounds in Thimbleweed
| Park. The guy is incredible. I'm lucky that I played and beat
| both Loom and Secret of Monkey Island before they went VGA as a
| kid. We were kind of brainwashed back then to think more is
| always better. I always preferred the EGA versions but never
| really knew why until I was much older.
|
| I'm working on a few game concepts and made the decision to
| solely use the EGA pallet. It has to be one of the worst pallets
| out there, but when done well the results can be astonishing. You
| have to use dithering and you have to use some unusual colors
| (cyan and magenta come to mind). This creates a very unique,
| nostalgic feel that only EGA can produce. I also love adding
| interesting technical constraints to my game ideas.
|
| "The enemy of art is the absence of limitations." -- Orson Welles
| Narishma wrote:
| I think you mean CGA palette. The EGA had a 64 color palette
| but you could only use 16 at a time.
| bstar77 wrote:
| I was referring to the default EGA pallet which is what games
| used back then.
| Narishma wrote:
| Yes, that would be the CGA palette. It's also the default
| in EGA and VGA (the first 16 colors).
| henrikschroder wrote:
| I think you're technically correct, but that's not how
| these games used those graphics modes.
|
| A game with "CGA graphics", used the 320x200 mode, which
| had one of two fixed four-colour palettes,
| red/green/yellow/black or cyan/magenta/white/black. It
| was godawful.
|
| A game with "EGA graphics" used the 320x200 mode, and the
| 16 colour fixed palette. This mode overlapped perfectly
| with graphics modes on the Atari ST and the Amiga 500,
| which allowed game developers to make games that looked
| exactly the same on all three.
|
| So all the classic LucasArts games, from Maniac Mansion
| to Monkey Island simply ran on a port of SCUMM on each
| platform, and re-used the graphics assets straight up.
|
| Sierra did the exact same thing in this era, they had
| their own game engine, and games like Police Quest II,
| Quest for Glory and King's Quest IV looked exactly the
| same on all three platforms.
| mrob wrote:
| Standard EGA didn't support the extended palette for 200 line
| modes, because it would break backwards compatibility with
| CGA monitors. Some EGA monitors had a switch to enable it,
| but software support was very limited.
| bitwize wrote:
| "It's supposed to smell like a Wallmart electric force field
| generation unit, but we could only do 16 different odors in
| EGA, so it smells a lot like the time pod."
| nine_k wrote:
| EGA could show only 16 colors on screen at once; CGA, 4.
|
| VGA was capable of 256 colors in 320 x 200 mode, as well as
| in the undocumented 320x240 "X mode", the latter had the
| perfect square pixels.
| ggambetta wrote:
| I played Monkey Island directly on VGA, so the EGA version just
| looks too old fashioned for me :-/
| dccoolgai wrote:
| Ditto on being a Ferrari fan. Been re-reading this article for
| years, I think you'll enjoy it if you haven't seen it yet.
| http://www.effectgames.com/effect/article-Old_School_Color_C...
| herodoturtle wrote:
| That was a fantastic read - especially the linked Q&A with
| Mark Ferrari contained therein.
|
| Thanks for sharing!
|
| Edit: Here is a direct link to the Q&A for those that are
| interested (but courtesy of course to the person above for
| the original source link):
| http://www.effectgames.com/effect/article-
| Q_A_with_Mark_J_Fe...
| modeless wrote:
| Fans of Mark Ferrari should get the Living Worlds app. You
| can have his art as your wallpaper.
| https://pixfabrik.com/livingworlds/
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| Loved Loom on the Amiga, always felt the lower color versions
| of Monkey Island and Loom looked better.
|
| You can tell the color limitations led some of the atmosphere
| direction. Same deal with both the island at the start of Loom
| and the town at the start of Monkey Island, the EGA versions
| feel like they're night but the VGA feel like early evening.
| bstar77 wrote:
| Actually, the EGA version has a sunset background at the dock
| and the VGA version is after it has set.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| Loom is arguably the best looking EGA game. I hadn't seen the vga
| version prior to this. There doesn't seem to be the coherency of
| style that the originals had
| kjrose wrote:
| I am always amazed as I look back at cga and ega graphics how
| incredibly versatile the designers were. Working with extreme
| limitations and still able to produce a mood and look that blows
| my mind.
|
| Same with really good ansi artists.
| gorgoiler wrote:
| How can I play the original EGA version?
| ghostDancer wrote:
| Loom is easy to find, you can get it on GOG, is on reduced
| price several times a year. And then use SCUMMVM and you can
| even play it on your phone.
| Narishma wrote:
| But does it include EGA graphics or only the remastered
| graphics like a lot of re-released old games do?
| ghostDancer wrote:
| The one on GOG is the VGA version, for the EGA one you need
| to resort to other sources more on the spirit of Monkey
| Island :-) .
| gattilorenz wrote:
| Using ScummVM on any existing platform. The game should be
| easily... found online.
| logbiscuitswave wrote:
| You can buy from Steam for pretty cheap, and then customize
| by loading in a recent version of ScummVM. This also works in
| 64-bit only versions of MacOS as where the base title is
| otherwise incompatible.
|
| Beyond the graphical changes, I also seem to recall that the
| script is somewhat different in the EGA version. I wouldn't
| be surprised if there was a fix from the community for this,
| though.
| Macuyiko wrote:
| > The original EGA background art for Loom was made by Mark
| Ferrari
|
| Obligatory recommendation for this talk by Mark Ferrari:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcJ1Jvtef0 - truly an artist
| bajsejohannes wrote:
| Wow, that's amazing. Here is one of the galleries he's showing
| in the video: http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/
|
| I couldn't find the one with adjustable time of day, though.
| dividuum wrote:
| Just bought https://pixfabrik.com/livingworlds/ as a result
| of your post. It has multiple variants for each scene
| depending on time of day.
|
| edit: Also found the web version:
| http://www.effectgames.com/demos/worlds/
| nine_k wrote:
| The difference is striking. I only played the EGA version, and
| showed it to my children.
|
| This is a great example why making things look realistic is _not_
| always a good idea in game design. There is a good reason why
| some games should _not_ look like your daily life.
|
| The dream-like rendering of old games is one of their principal
| attractive features. This is what I dearly miss in modern games,
| which sweat over hyper-realistic rendering and tend to look like
| a documentary with some haphazard CGI / AR effects slapped onto
| that. Some old games instead would take you to a visually
| impossible but utterly beautiful neverland, as shown so well in
| the article.
|
| I hope some game designers will realize this, and try to make
| another explicitly visually unrealistic game which is a piece of
| art.
| tartoran wrote:
| Yes. I remember playing the game in EGA because thats the most
| I had at the time and it was very iconic. Looking back, it and
| many games of the time remain iconic Lucasart/Sierra/etc.
| Modern games have advanced enormously but they're lacking a
| certain aspect that is very hard to engineer and all that
| complexity anounts to something but in the end it all looks the
| same and lacks the personility games used to have.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| Wow, I remember this remaster... I definitely had a feeling of
| the magic being gone in the CD-ROM version. I blamed the C-list
| voiceovers and overly lush production of the music... the old
| "sound blaster" score had this delicate and deliberate (what we
| would later call "chiptune") sound, whereas the CD was just
| _wrong_. But yes, the graphics were inferior too.
|
| I would have expected the EGA and soundblaster approach to work
| great for a cartoonish game like Monkey Island, but Loom was more
| like a Rankin-Bass or a gothic Disney movie (think Black
| Cauldron). Everything about the themes indicate that lush visual
| canvases and a live orchestra would be the way to go.
|
| Textbook case of severe limitations leading to great art, I
| guess.
| Eric_WVGG wrote:
| ... here's a vid where you can see a live playback of both
| versions simultaneously. Yeah, the voices are as cringe as I
| remember. The music is lacking. Melodrama. It's just bad.
| https://youtu.be/Tsmt29AJBaE
|
| [edit] even that video doesn't quite get the best score.
| They're playing EGA with no soundcard at all. Here's the game
| with an AdLib / SoundBlaster score, hardware standards that
| were just catching on when Loom was being developed.
| https://youtu.be/qxoRHAY3CM0
|
| And here's the Roland MT-32, the card that everyone knew was
| the best, and no 13 year old could possibly afford. THAT'S the
| premium experience. https://youtu.be/SVYI2logmXs
|
| ((It's all Tchaikovsky, by the way))
| cousin_it wrote:
| It feels like the VGA version got painted over by a non-artist.
| Look at the trees in the graveyard scene, the pillow shading is
| inexcusable. The EGA is still great though. Mark Ferrari's other
| work is good too, check out
| http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/
|
| Many people think the charm of Loom is due to pixel art, but
| that's not true. The aesthetic was consciously borrowed from
| Eyvind Earle's work on Sleeping Beauty, which was very much high
| res and full color. The main antagonist is based on Maleficent.
| JdeBP wrote:
| This hits the nail on the head, I think. Other comments talk
| about limitations of EGA, but that really isn't the problem
| exhibited here. The problem here is _not drawing things right_.
|
| The graveyard scene has the trees illuminated from the side
| opposite to the sunset. The original has them illuminated by
| the sunset. The scene with the pipes has several of the shadows
| wrong for the apparent light sources, compared to the original.
|
| And where did the birds and the will-o'-the-wisps go?
| Rapzid wrote:
| I agree; it's just uninspired, poor artwork. Preferring the EGA
| style doesn't make the VGA art not bad. I might go so far as to
| say it's objectively bad.. You could almost certainly get a
| consensus on that from a group of talented artists..
|
| I don't think they spent much money on the remaster. There are
| tons of these though all the way to now. Remasters that fail to
| capture the original art direction and substitute middling art.
|
| Within the past decade there are more and more good remaster
| examples. Studios seem to be putting more money into them, and
| better talent is involved.
| raldi wrote:
| _> Look at the trees in the graveyard scene, the pillow shading
| is inexcusable._
|
| Thanks for introducing me to the term (which led to an explicit
| definition) for something I've perceived before but never
| clearly.
|
| The tombstones and sunset firmly establish the light source at
| the horizon. The foreground should be in silhouette (as it was
| initially) and there's no explanation for why the center of the
| trunks would receive more light than their edges.
|
| (However, _both_ versions of the dock, and the furnace with the
| angled pipes, are pretty terrible about light sources.)
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-03-13 23:01 UTC)