[HN Gopher] Why doesn't capitalism produce good kettles?
___________________________________________________________________
Why doesn't capitalism produce good kettles?
Author : _donteven
Score : 83 points
Date : 2021-03-13 08:14 UTC (14 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (sahba-sanai.medium.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (sahba-sanai.medium.com)
| jiehong wrote:
| If you remove the anti limestone bit, it's not that hard:
|
| https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Klarstein-Garcon-Kettle-Temperatu...
|
| Some places do not event need to worry about limestone, but if
| you do, use a water jug with a filter whose job is just that,
| like what Brita proposes.
| Symbiote wrote:
| The idea is not to change the chemical composition of the water
| (as a softener in a Brita filter does), but just to filter out
| any chunks of scale that have formed inside and come loose.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Really you just ought to descale your kettle regularly.
|
| Tea made from a scaly kettle will form a scum, even if you
| use a mesh limescale filter. Apparently Yorkshire Tea for
| hard water might help with this, but I drink decaf so that's
| not an option for me.
| a0-prw wrote:
| My cheapo kettle bought after the last one fell apart in my gf's
| hands checks almost all the boxes. I think low-tech is almost
| always better. Also I agree that a consumer trying to buy a cool
| look is a major problem. Just get something simple that does what
| it has to do.
| speedgoose wrote:
| My kettle fulfill almost all his criteria. It max out at 1.25L
| and it beeps. I like the beep feature, it's not super loud on
| mine, but I guess it could be possible to disconnect the beep.
| tobeportable wrote:
| I am quite happy with this recent purchase :
| https://www.palaisdesthes.com/en/stainless-steel-with-variab...
| ncmncm wrote:
| If it's recent, you don't know whether it will fail next week.
| bostik wrote:
| Looks a bit like Cuisinart. Costs about the same too, the only
| difference being that Cuisinart has a temperature quick select
| on buttons (85deg and 100degC), and the lid opens from a button
| above the handle.
|
| The lid button is surprisingly nice to have, because you don't
| accidentally burn your hand when refilling right after the
| first batch.
| randomsearch wrote:
| Unsure if the author really wants an answer, but capitalism does
| not optimise for good design or for consumer satisfaction. It
| optimises for profit.
| sahbasanai wrote:
| Hi, author here (and I really am looking for answers).
|
| Thanks for your comment.
|
| As someone below you hinted at, wouldn't one expect that "high
| profit" would result from "high consumer satisfaction"? I think
| that's the step that puzzles me.
|
| I have to say, reading through this thread I'm beginning to
| think that the existing offering of kettles in the market does
| deliver sufficient satisfaction to consumers, removing the
| incentive to create a better product.
|
| Multiple commenters have said they don't mind beeps, or flashy
| lights, or the lack of a calcium mesh. It may be worth pointing
| out that the kettles I bought had VERY loud beeps (I don't mind
| a "normal" beep), VERY strong lights (I don't mind "normal"
| lights, I actually enjoy seeing light in my kettle). Also, I
| actually do pre-filter my water with a Brita jug, and I also
| descale my kettle regularly, but the calcium content in my area
| is so high that I'd have to descale between every 2 cups of tea
| not to get calc bits in my drink.
|
| This all leads me to conclude that probably my opening premise
| is wrong: maybe I _am_ unreasonably picky about kettles and,
| since capitalism makes kettles for the masses and not for the
| 3% of people who are as picky as I seem to be, then I can 't
| find a (cheap) kettle that meets my requirements.
|
| But... why did the first 19.99EUR kettle exist then? How come
| that product was possible (and later disappeared)?
|
| Another part of me feels that if someone produces a reasonably
| durable kettle that meets all the requirements in my post (as
| well as some secondary requirements that I didn't write about
| but that my 19.99EUR kettle did meet), then that will quickly
| become the new gold standard for kettles and in 10 years we'll
| look back and say "oh my goodness, can you believe we used to
| not have temperature control in most kettles?"
|
| You may ask "then why did the 19.99EUR kettle disappear?" and
| that is a good question. The best answer I've been able to find
| is that it was a generic supermarket-brand kettle and it
| cannibalised profits from other more expensive brandname
| kettles. I also don't understand why the super advanced toaster
| (that someone else in this thread posted a video of)
| disappeared. And I guess that is the crux of my question,
| really: in 1948 we had a design of a toaster that was superior
| in every way to modern day toasters. How come it's disappeared
| for good?
| engineer_22 wrote:
| Question: does socialism, communism, fascism, anarchism, or
| other ism produce a better kettle? Could we conceive an ism
| that makes better home appliances?
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| They don't, and no one is claiming that they do. The author
| is simply puzzled as to why capitalism (a system where
| maximizing profits is the goal) hasn't capitalized on the
| desire for a good kettle? And the speculated answer is that
| maybe there isn't enough desire for it to be profitable,
| because most people are happy enough with mediocre kettles.
| Singletoned wrote:
| But that wouldn't answer the question. Why is it not profitable
| to make good kettles?
|
| Also, you're wrong. The people designing these kettles aren't
| doing so to make more money for their company. If anything you
| could say that capitalism optimises for job security. That's
| why you don't see new features on kettles, and why no one will
| make a left handed microwave. No one wants to take a risk
| rsj_hn wrote:
| Not sure if this was a troll, but I'll assume it was honest and
| then point out that _every system_ optimizes for profit. Profit
| is just taking out more than what you put in. That could be
| being paid even if you don 't show up to work, or doing one
| hour of work and getting paid for 2, or selling something for
| $2 when you could easily sell it for $1. Everyone wants to take
| out more than they put in.
|
| The genius of capitalism is in encouraging and facilitating
| competition so that other firms can come and take away your
| profit by selling something that appeals to customers more. In
| this way, the universal profit motive is turned into better
| products as people compete for surplus income rather than
| having that assigned by birth (middle ages), political
| connections (soviet systems), religious considerations
| (indulgences/moral crusaders), etc.
|
| But everyone is going to optimize to get more than what they
| put in -- e.g. profit. The only question is what determines
| that income stream -- being able to sell products to consumers
| better than the other guy, or being a loyal party deputy.
| randomsearch wrote:
| Aside: Not a troll. Appreciate you taking it at face value,
| thank you. I think too often I give short answers and expect
| others to understand / expand my point.
|
| Will expand properly elsewhere but the implicit point was
| that profit is not necessarily even remotely connected to
| product quality or customer satisfaction, but the author
| seems to have made the assumption that they are.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _Not sure if this was a troll, but I 'll assume it was
| honest and then point out that every system optimizes for
| profit._
|
| If we bend profit to mean anything we like, yes.
|
| But the commonly understood sense is "making more money", not
| "keeping party bureaucrats happy" or "making the private
| owner of the company proud of the quality of his products,
| even if he's not making as much as he could".
| kubanczyk wrote:
| TL;DR Market consumes nonsensical kettles. Capitalism is to
| blame.
|
| Not the fact that we buy with clicks. Not the fact that market
| does not strongly prefer reputation systems. Capitalism.
| morio wrote:
| Huh? You just pointed out what capitalism is about.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| Capitalism is about ownership of means of production. Look it
| up.
| Daho0n wrote:
| It's not possible to boil it down to just that. Also,
| please don't be snarky.
| meowster wrote:
| Unfortunately too many people are turning an economic term
| into a political term. But I do agree that we should all be
| polite here.
| jacknews wrote:
| Yes it's not the fault of capitalism as such (private ownership
| of the means of production for private profit), but of market-
| based economies.
|
| They deliver a combination of what producers want to produce,
| and what people want to buy (measured by what they actually
| buy), not necessarily what people need or is good for them.
| Just look at the industrial food complex.
| Turing_Machine wrote:
| > not necessarily what people need or is good for them
|
| Who gets to decide what people "need" or what is "good for
| them"?
| kubanczyk wrote:
| You blame market as a mechanism. I blame people.
|
| Thought experiment: mechanism does not exist anymore. Would
| people still want to click nonsensical kettles on their
| screens and not care about vendor's reputation?
|
| Thus my answer is education, education, education.
| jacknews wrote:
| I would argue civilization is a combination of educating
| people, and improving the environment to suit human needs.
|
| I don't believe raw market mechanisms alone are suitable to
| serve human needs.
| breakyerself wrote:
| Capitalism isn't the panacea its evangelists want you to think it
| is. That's the short answer.
| deepsun wrote:
| I physically tore out beeper from my kettle and it worked
| perfectly ever after.
| sneak wrote:
| https://www.amazon.com/Zojirushi-586362-CV-DCC50XT-America-C...
|
| As usual, you gotta get the one made in Japan.
| DanBC wrote:
| Maybe the UK just has a more developed market, but places like
| John Lewis almost certainly sell a kettle that meets all those
| points. It'll be pricey.
|
| But places like Argos will too.
|
| This one is only PS20 and hits all their points:
| https://www.argos.co.uk/product/8528728?clickSR=slp:term:ket...
| sahbasanai wrote:
| Hi, author here. I do think that the UK probably has one of the
| more develop kettle markets (I was extra surprised when my
| extra expensive kettle bought in the UK didn't have a limescale
| mesh, considering high calcium levels in London and elsewhere
| in the UK).
|
| And, not trying to be snarky, but with the kettle you list one
| has to open the lid (or lift it up) to get a sense of how much
| water is in there. One of the requirements listed in the
| article is for the water level to be shown to the user.
| dazc wrote:
| I bought my dad a kettle from Tesco 5 years ago for PS5. He
| uses it daily and it still works.
|
| Re scaling, he uses bottled water (which may upset some people,
| I'm sorry) but you can buy 5 ltr bottles for PS1 and you get no
| scaling at all. His kettle inside is as good as new. inside.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| My kettle request: a kettle designed to use all the power
| available from the 20A receptacles that are put into most modern
| North American kitchens.
| aj7 wrote:
| And therefore blow the circuit periodically as only a dedicated
| circuit has one outlet per breaker.
| frosted-flakes wrote:
| I've never seen a 20 A plug on an appliance, even though every
| kitchen less than 20 years old is fitted with 20 A outlets.
| Probably because manufacturers don't want to make them because
| most kitchens still only have 15 A outlets. If I ever build my
| own house I'll probably fit a 240 V outlet in the kitchen for
| an imported kettle.
| aj7 wrote:
| Because of the microwave.
| dragontamer wrote:
| > I was confused: how could a (very expensive) kettle not come
| with a filter? (When water boils, calcium precipitates. That's
| why your kettle gets much more limescale than your water jug).
|
| Do you not have vinegar? Specifically: white distilled vinegar
| (5% or 6%)?
|
| That does a very good job at cleaning off limescale / calcium /
| other deposits. Pour onto the scale, wait 15 minutes, and rinse
| it out. Acids man, they work.
|
| Everything else seems available on a $15 kettle.
| airhead969 wrote:
| I only ingest RO water, no scale to speak of.
| awalton wrote:
| If you have hard water, you'd know just how silly that question
| is. Everyone descales their kettles at some point, but we don't
| want to do it every other day. That's too much effort for
| making coffee or tea. The filter is there to extend the amount
| of time you can go between descaling to reasonable timescales.
|
| I went on a similar kettle-quest a while ago and wound up
| accepting the disco-ball LED enhanced model because it was
| cheap and did the job (and mine doesn't beep - that would have
| immediately sent it back). I still think about going with the
| fancier one with a temp control for that perfect cup, but just
| waiting a minute for the water to come off the boil is fine
| enough for me.
| dragontamer wrote:
| I'm looking at that limescale filter pictured: and I don't
| think it helps with hard water at all.
|
| It looks like the point of the limescale filter in the
| picture is for keeping the limescale IN the kettle, and
| preventing chunks of limescale from pouring out of the kettle
| and into your teacups. Anything else, it'd be utterly useless
| for.
|
| A tiny metal mesh won't do anything to pull limescale out of
| hard water. For that, you need Reverse Osmosis and/or
| demineralizer. Much larger activated carbon-filters (aka:
| Brita) barely helps with hard water in my experience (and
| Youtube tests suggest it doesn't change ppm counts much at
| all).
|
| (Brita clearly makes a different taste: so its filtering
| something out of the water. But its just not limestone /
| scale / the stuff that makes hard water)
|
| ----------
|
| Descaling with vinegar (or citric acid tablets, or some other
| acid) seems to be the easiest solution, short of a more
| expensive, dedicated filter (like Reverse Osmosis).
|
| You're just not going to soften hard water with a reusable
| mesh. That's just not how hard water works.
|
| -------
|
| IMO: That's why we don't see limescale filters on electric
| kettles. Physics / chemistry simply doesn't work the way the
| parent post expects.
| kirstenbirgit wrote:
| Just trying to understand your thought process here - did
| you think that the parent thought that the filter would
| somehow remove lime out of thin air? I'm honestly amazed
| how you didn't immediately come to the conclusion that it's
| just for filtering lime out before pouring.
| dragontamer wrote:
| I have been in homes with hard water, but its not my day-
| to-day life.
|
| I usually use a $15 kettle, and no lime precipitates when
| I typically use a boiler. I can see that lime eventually
| builds up in the kettle, but as described earlier: a bit
| of vinegar removes those deposits without much issue.
|
| ------
|
| Honestly, I can't say that I've ever seen water so hard
| that it'd precipitate visible amounts of lime in a
| kettle. I usually see that sort of stuff on humidifiers
| or distillers. Not really a kettle.
|
| I mean, everything eventually has lime buildup ("soft
| water" isn't free of lime/calcium, it just has 1/2 the
| calcium of hard water). Knowing how to clean that stuff
| off is important.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| I had no idea how bad hard water could get until I moved
| to London.
|
| I get limescale on everything. I descale my kettle every
| week or two (almost daily if not using a Brita filter),
| shower head monthly. I pour citric acid down the toilet
| weekly. My taps actually form little calcium stalactites
| over a few months. Thermostatic shower cartridges are an
| annual replacement item because the limescale gets them
| too.
|
| I keep demineralised water around for sensitive equipment
| like humidifiers.
|
| On the bright side, I love how hard water tastes.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| I use the Brita Maxtra+, and have confirmed with test
| strips and en electric meter that it reduces my 400ppm to
| 150ppm or so. Not zero, but significantly increases the
| interval between rescaling and results in a more pleasant
| cup of tea. Not sure about the others, but the Maxtra+ is
| advertised specifically to soften water.
|
| However the filters do not last as long as they claim. I
| have to replace the filter maybe 2/3 through it's rated
| life or I start to get limescale and tea scum.
|
| I don't drink the Brita water though. I much prefer the
| taste of hard water.
| EliRivers wrote:
| _It looks like the point of the limescale filter in the
| picture is for keeping the limescale IN the kettle, and
| preventing chunks of limescale from pouring out of the
| kettle and into your teacups. Anything else, it 'd be
| utterly useless for._
|
| Well, yeah. That's exactly what it's for. The kettle I'm
| using right now has one and that's exactly what it's for.
| awalton wrote:
| I get that it's fun to try to "big time" me with physical
| explanations for simple phenomenons that anyone who
| actually owns a kettle can explain, but it's very simple:
| the filter isn't there to provide any kind of softening.
| It's there to keep chunks of limescale from falling out of
| the kettle when you pour the water.
|
| Yep, that's the big mystery you couldn't solve in 30
| sentences. It's a strainer.
| [deleted]
| ajuc wrote:
| > It looks like the point of the limescale filter in the
| picture is for keeping the limescale IN the kettle, and
| preventing chunks of limescale from pouring out of the
| kettle and into your teacups.
|
| That's the point, yes. You have tea with lime flakes
| otherwise.
|
| As for filters I actually prefer the taste of hard water
| (and the tap water is good to drink where I live, just
| inconvenient).
|
| As for kettles - most people where I live use the ones you
| put on your gas stove as electricity is more expansive.
| sokoloff wrote:
| It takes around 1/5th kWh to boil a liter of water, or
| around $0.04 for me (in a place of fairly expensive
| electricity for the US).
|
| How much cheaper would gas have to be for me to choose
| gas over electric? Probably $0.25/liter or more cheaper.
| morsch wrote:
| People I know with gas or induction stoves use it to boil
| water because it's faster. This must be doubly true in
| the US with it's comparatively weak power outlets.
| ncmncm wrote:
| I measured. It takes fully twice as long on a gas range
| burner, with a wide, flat-bottom kettle.
| morsch wrote:
| I have no reason to doubt your result for one specific
| electrical kettle and one specific gas stove.
| dunefox wrote:
| > If you have hard water, you'd know just how silly that
| question is. Everyone descales their kettles at some point,
| but we don't want to do it every other day. That's too much
| effort for making coffee or tea.
|
| I have very hard water and I do it every day before I boil
| soft water for green tea. It takes only 1-2 minutes...
| icedistilled wrote:
| If by lime scale filter they mean a mesh screen to prevent the
| scale flakes from getting in your cup, then I agree that would be
| nice, the screen on mine lets small flakes through.
|
| If by filter they want to prevent limescale in the first place,
| that requires an ion exchange resin and I highly doubt any kettle
| includes that or anyone would want a kettle that includes that.
| Or it would require an even less practical membrane that the
| water would be pumped through at high pressure. Or a two stage
| kettle where the that distills the water for you.
|
| If the kettle claims to have a filter to prevent scale, i.e.
| remove calcium, then the kettle is lying.
| EccentricBunny wrote:
| I bought the stove-top Fellow Kettle [0] a year ago and it's a
| fantastic kettle. Boils water surprisingly fast, has a
| thermometer attached to it and the polished steel is beautiful.
| They don't have filters because you are supposed to filter your
| water, a bad water isn't going to produce a good water based
| drink.
|
| There are good kettle for enthusiastic coffee or tea lovers, but
| you have to be ready to pay a fair price for a product focused on
| a niche market in the west.
|
| [0] https://fellowproducts.com/products/stagg
| fancyfredbot wrote:
| The trend for kitchen products which beep at you baffles me.
| Kettles, dishwashers, washing machines, ovens and hobs all seem
| to beep these days and there's almost never a way to switch it
| off. Can anyone tell me why? I can't believe anyone actually
| likes the beeping. Is it a result of disability legislation
| maybe?
| RhysU wrote:
| The writer lists 11 requirements for the kettle beyond
| functioning as a kettle. The piece essentially asks "why hasn't
| capitalism found and manufactured my personal optimum in a high
| dimensional space for 19.99EUR?"
| [deleted]
| [deleted]
| tigerlily wrote:
| What a coincidence, I bought one today. Optimised on minimal
| plastic this time. It was slim pickings. Found a glass one
| without the gaudy blue LED illumination from below, so bought it.
| drcongo wrote:
| I have no answers to the question posed, other than that
| capitalism doesn't incentivise "good", it incentivises profit,
| and with these kind of small electronics those two things are
| mutually exclusive. The very first thing I thought of when I
| started reading this article, was this thread [1] about a toaster
| from decades ago that is better than anything one can buy today.
| I watched several videos about that toaster that day and it now
| lives rent free in my head, especially every time I take the
| burnt or unevenly toasted toast out of my stupidly expensive, but
| rubbish, Dualit toaster.
|
| [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21164014
| prepend wrote:
| Are there good kettles produced by non-capitalist systems?
|
| Maybe there's some soviet-era kettles that are still working
| well. Or would be interesting to hear from Cubans or North
| Koreans who might have this kettle problem licked.
|
| I've had these kinds of problems where the market seems to favor
| trash or superficial. I've tried to find a decent trash can and
| varies between $10 plastic bins and then ones with similar
| quality but just higher prices and nicer marketing.
|
| I'm trying to replace a 20 year old brabentia that was $200 way
| back when.
|
| I think the challenge is that designers are expensive and so
| prices can get really high even though problems can be solved
| with just slightly more expensive components.
|
| I'm hoping for 3D printing to be able to incorporate assembly so
| I can just send a spec for a one off manufacture at a reasonable
| price. Really hard for a kettle or trash can today, but maybe one
| day.
| deadbytes wrote:
| Very strange title, I don't understand why people blame
| "capitalism" for problems like this.
|
| Saying "crappy kettles exist because we have a free market" is
| like saying "murder only exists because we allow people to freely
| move around".
|
| Something being allowed to happen in a system doesn't mean that
| the system is the thing causing it to happen.
|
| "Why are people buying crappy kettles" should be the title.
| [deleted]
| ANarrativeApe wrote:
| https://direct.asda.com/george/home/kettles-toasters/17l-tem...
| zajio1am wrote:
| My main issue with existing electric kettles is that a cup of tea
| is 250 ml, while required minimal amount of water in kettle is
| 500 ml.
| sahbasanai wrote:
| As far as I can understand, the primary (but not only) reason
| behind the 500ml minimum requirement is that early kettle
| designs included a heating element that was above the base of
| the kettle (something like this: https://media.sciencephoto.com
| /image/h1300610/800wm/H1300610...) and for safe and effective
| operation of the kettle, the heating element had to be covered
| by water.
|
| I do think there is another reason for the minimum quantity
| requirement (increasing the likelihood that the generated steam
| will trigger the temperature sensor) but this other reason is
| far less important.
|
| In other words, almost all modern kettles don't actually need a
| minimum of 500ml of water - maybe just 100ml or so to ensure
| water does turn into steam and triggers the temperature sensor.
|
| Kettle producers have just never really updated the "minimum
| amount" line. Though I have occasionally started to see kettles
| without this line.
| jpindar wrote:
| I like this Amazon Basics kettle I have. It's only 1 liter, but I
| rarely need more than that.
|
| https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Stainless-Steel-Electric...
| any1 wrote:
| I bought a kettle that turned out to have an obnoxious loud beep,
| so I just desoldered the piezo speaker that emitted the beep from
| the circuit board. Problem solved.
|
| Perhaps people like me, who just make things work, are a part of
| the problem? I mean, if they don't get any negative feedback, I
| guess they'll just assume that people are happy with their
| products.
|
| Then again, does anyone actually want loud beeps and bright
| lights on home appliances? Who are those people?
| Normille wrote:
| >Then again, does anyone actually want loud beeps and bright
| lights on home appliances? Who are those people?
|
| Presumably the same people who leave every sound effect
| switched on [usually full volume] on their phone. So, when
| sitting near them on a bus or train, you have to suffer an
| endless cacophony of bleeps, buzzes and bells as thye do... _<
| whatever the feck it is morons do, that requires you can't be
| separated from your phone for more than a nanosecond>_ ...for
| the entire journey.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| I have never bought a bad kettle. Maybe I'm just less particular
| about my kettles, but as far as I can tell, even the cheap PS5
| ones from ASDA meet all of these requirements.
|
| I have had a Bosch Village Collection kettle for the last 5
| years, which I bought for PS20. Still works fine and frankly if
| it broke tomorrow, I can't really complain. I bought it because
| it was the cheapest 3kW kettle they had.
|
| Also my experience is the limescale filters don't work. If you
| want a nice cup of tea, you really need to pre-soften your water
| with a Brita jug and descale regularly. My water is 400ppm at the
| tap (London!) and the Brita jug takes it down to 150ppm. A
| monthly descale keeps the kettle nice and clean.
| wolfretcrap wrote:
| I live in the norther part of India near Himalayas, water to my
| house has 200-250 TDS and I use RO system to turn it down to
| 1TDS then it's remineralized again.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| You have clearly never lived in North America, continent of
| pathetic kettles. It's hard enough to find one here that's
| electric in the first place, it seems people prefer to balance
| their kettles on the tops of stoves, like peasants. On the odd
| occasion you do find one that plugs into a wall, often it's
| like it was designed in the dark ages before they were
| cordless, and of course the cord is only about 6 inches long,
| so you have to unplug it to move it to the tap for a refill,
| then plug it in again. My current apartment's kettle doesn't
| even have a lid or a button, you have to fill it through the
| spout and it starts boiling immediately when you plug it in.
| After all that, it still takes about 27 minutes to make a cup
| of tea. Forget all these fancy lime scale filters and
| temperature controls, just finding a PS5 one that actually
| worked would be a dream.
|
| Rant aside, apparently a large part of the problem is because
| North America uses 110v at the wall. Quick explanation here[0].
| As mentioned in the linked article, many houses here also have
| a separate high voltage line for washing machines. Perhaps they
| should have a high voltage kettle line.
|
| [0] http://wordpress.mrreid.org/2012/04/16/why-kettles-boil-
| slow...
| cwhiz wrote:
| I'm sorry, but what? There are infinite electric kettles
| available. 27 minutes to boil water? Again, what?
|
| Seriously, have you ever been in North America? Just go into
| literally any big box retailer and find the 50 foot long
| shelves full of electric kettles. Or go to an online
| retailer, say Amazon, and find hundreds and hundreds of them.
| Virtually every major brand makes electric kettles, they all
| seem to work just fine, and they don't take 27 minutes to
| boil water.
| orra wrote:
| > 27 minutes to boil water? Again, what?
|
| They're exaggerating. But your typical North American
| electric kettle is--ballpark--twice as slow as a European
| kettle.
|
| Your standard North American sockets provide half the
| voltage but not double the amperage, so they're half as
| powerful.
| cwhiz wrote:
| Sure, but 27 minutes is such an absurd exaggeration. I
| can boil a liter of water on my electric kettle in 4-5
| minutes. I rarely need a full liter, anyway, and I don't
| always want the water at boiling temperature. It is
| typically under 2 minutes for me to have hot water for a
| cup of tea. In Europe maybe those numbers are halved, but
| to me it's just a trivial difference.
| orra wrote:
| Sure. But what about 1.7L? That's what my typical kettles
| does, at maximum.
|
| It's great for boiling water for cooking; at 230V it's
| faster than heating on the hob. But if it took 7-8
| minutes, that'd be frustrating.
| cwhiz wrote:
| My stove has a power boil option for that. Do you
| typically use your kettle to boil water for cooking?
|
| I typically don't even keep track of how long it takes to
| boil on the stove. I just do the rest of the prep work.
| orra wrote:
| Yeah, we use the kettle all the time, for quickly
| bringing water to the boil. Always for pasta. Sometimes
| for potatoes (though they are probably better gradually
| heated from cold).
|
| A power boil option would be a decent alternative.
|
| I'm probably just impatient, to be fair.
| otterley wrote:
| Not much we can do about that, I'm afraid. Most
| residential outlets are 15 amps, and to double them to 30
| amps or convert them to 240V would require costly
| rewiring. And copper prices are sky-high these days.
| kardos wrote:
| Or you could use two kettles
| awillen wrote:
| This guy thinks outside the box.
| _nalply wrote:
| Till the fuses flip.
| kardos wrote:
| Yeah this only works if you have more than one circuit.
| snypher wrote:
| I wonder if a kettle with a J1772 or Tesla port...
| cameronh90 wrote:
| What about a kettle with a giant battery pack that
| charges when idle and boils at 10kW when you press the
| button.
| kirstenbirgit wrote:
| At that point one might as well get an instant boiling
| water tap system.
| SAI_Peregrinus wrote:
| Photonicinduction's 10-second kettle[1] doesn't use a
| battery, instead it uses his 100A 240V input through a
| big variac to run at 10kW (440V, 22.7A). This isn't good
| for the longevity of the kettle he used, sadly.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDLw1Rx_cAI
| ryzvonusef wrote:
| >Photonicinduction
|
| whatever happened to the guy, i was a fan of his videos
| then he stopped posting a few years back...
|
| electroboom seems to be covering a similar niche, so
| that's good though.
| sneak wrote:
| Joking aside, I use a Zojirushi vacuum kettle that keeps
| the water at the correct temperature at all times, so I
| never wait.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The electrician, drywall repair, and other skilled labor
| costs of running a thicker gauge wire to the kitchen from
| the circuit breaker would far outweigh the cost of the
| wire itself. By orders of magnitude.
| orra wrote:
| From web searching, North America is 120V but two phases.
| So you could redo the socket to 240V without running new
| cable through your walls.
|
| But that's kinda academic if nobody sells kettles that
| have the North American 240V plug.
| mlyle wrote:
| > From web searching, North America is 120V but two
| phases. So you could redo the socket to 240V without
| running new cable through your walls.
|
| You'd need an extra conductor of wire than is there in
| the cable for a standard 240V outlet. (Hot1, Hot2,
| Neutral, Gnd).
|
| You _can_ run a Hot1 /Hot2 240V circuit with existing
| 14/2 romex, but odds are that whatever feeds the outlet
| in your kitchen also feeds many other outlets, and you
| don't want them all to be 240V.
|
| Note North America doesn't use ring circuits like the UK.
| foldr wrote:
| Electric kettles in America seem to be something of a
| boutique item. I often had to say "tea kettle" before
| anyone even understood what I was looking for.
|
| They are definitely 100% available to buy. However, they
| cost more and seem to be of lower quality than the range
| available in the UK.
|
| I suspect the voltage difference is the underlying reason.
| If you have a gas burner then an old fashioned stovetop
| kettle is almost as fast as an electric kettle in the US.
| perl4ever wrote:
| >it seems people prefer to balance their kettles on the tops
| of stoves, like peasants
|
| Is your kettle faster than a stove? Perceptions of speed are
| funny.
| zepto wrote:
| Americans cut the Gordian knot of the impossible kettle by
| making tea in the microwave.
| bhjgh777 wrote:
| As an American who makes tea in the microwave, I feel
| disparaged.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I don't know about Canada and Mexico, but these are the
| search results for a popular US store:
|
| https://www.target.com/s/kettle
|
| I've been using this $25 kettle for many years now:
|
| https://www.target.com/p/hamilton-beach-1l-electric-
| kettle-s...
|
| The cord is "6 inches" (it's actually 24 inches on my cheap
| kettle) because most kitchens in the US have many power
| outlets at the countertop, where the kettle sits. It would be
| annoying to deal with excess wire.
| fanf2 wrote:
| Do they have temperature control?
| paviva wrote:
| You're searching for a very niche product: something that's not
| simply a metal vessel that you can use to boil water, but that's
| not a full-featured water boiler/warmer[1].
|
| Electric boilers last forever, usually have multiple temperature
| settings, and don't have you wait before the water is ready. If
| you drink a lot of tea, I strongly suggest you try one.
|
| [1] https://www.zojirushi.com/app/category/water-boilers-warmers
| occz wrote:
| Maybe niche where you live. Where I live (europe) every home
| has one.
| anotheryou wrote:
| It's not very niche. Nearly every household and workplace I
| know has an electric kettle.
| legitster wrote:
| I feel like this article is intentionally pulling my leg.
|
| There are hundreds of kettles on Amazon alone that meet this list
| of demands. The kettle at home I've had for 12 years meets them
| too. But the author gives up after trying two of the cheapest
| available?
| [deleted]
| sahbasanai wrote:
| Hi, author here.
|
| Can you please send me a link? (not being snarky).
|
| Thanks
| ncmncm wrote:
| Me too.
|
| I have had to buy a half-dozen kettles in recent years (for
| more than one place), and they have all failed after about a
| year. These are $60-$90 kettles, old brands (e.g. Kitchenaid,
| warning!) with reputations they should want to maintain.
| Taking one apart, it is clear it was designed to fail after a
| short time in normal use. (Aside, KA mixers are now crap,
| too.)
|
| There is a mainstream term: Planned Obsolescence. This is a
| real phenomenon, a fixed-point of runaway capitalism. We
| cannot tell by looking how long a thing will last. We have to
| depend on reviews, but the review systems get corrupted.
|
| This has been well-known for many decades. Gaslighting the OP
| is nothing but abuse. It is often possible to buy a reliable
| product in a category, but its maker operates at a sharp
| commercial disadvantage vs. the shoddy work, by a process
| analogous to Gresham's Law. The bad products generate more
| profit, enabling more effective promotion, getting more sales
| and displacing the good ones. Makers of good products fall
| into line, or are driven out of business.
|
| So, identifying a good product and spreading the word is the
| only defense we have.
|
| Some people adopt a policy of never buying anything they have
| seen an ad for, on the principle that they would be paying
| for the ad instead of the product. This works, except that
| many products we need are not advertised. Also, some of us
| have been successful at largely eliminating our exposure to
| normal advertising, and even to "placements", advertising
| disguised as content, and we lose access to that signal.
|
| But I don't think kettles are advertised much.
|
| Buying a cheap kettle with fewer features often works, as
| there is less to go wrong, and the makers may be still trying
| to develop a reputation that could command a higher price--
| but not if you want the features.
|
| So we have to rely on referrals from other buyers who got
| lucky and happened upon a good product.
|
| The irony is that many of us would be ready, even eager, to
| pay a premium for quality, but apparently cannot find it at
| any price, or only at a price that would not enable a quality
| producer to stay in business while paying employees a living
| wage.
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| I have this one, I like it. But there are many more like it.
|
| https://www.bosch-home.co.uk/product-list/kettles-
| toasters/k...
| awillen wrote:
| After the over-the-top section about the bright lights and loud
| beeping, I started to imagine this as a parody of an English
| person complaining about stuff...
| sahbasanai wrote:
| Hi, author here. I've owned kettles with lights (and I like
| them). I've owned kettles that beep (and I don't mind it at
| all). Believe me when I tell you, that section of my article
| was not over-the-top. On the first day, I sat on the couch
| (about 7 meters away from the kettle) and the light of the
| kettle shone so brightly in my eye that my first thought was
| that someone was flashing a laser into my eyes through the
| window.
| mlyle wrote:
| Sometimes consumer electronics stuff is too bright-- it
| seems the market has a preference for bright blue LEDs
| still.
|
| But all you need to do to fix this is color over the light
| with a black sharpie. It reduces the brightness by 75%+.
| rolleiflex wrote:
| I've had blue lights that black sharpie could not dim.
|
| The solution for those is black nail polish. Dirt cheap,
| easy to apply since it's more of a goo than a liquid
| which you apply it by a brush that comes with the bottle,
| and it's completely impervious to any sort of light
| shining through in one coat. If you'd like _some_ light
| to see if the thing is on or off, apply a thinner coat.
|
| It completely solved my aggressive LEDs on things
| problem.
| everybodyknows wrote:
| That black kettle on the left of your photo is sold in US
| as "Fellowes". Notice how closely to the knob the venting
| steam flows? I've burnt myself a few times that way. An
| asymmetrical knob could remind the user of the safe grasp
| angle -- but then off course it wouldn't look so "minimal"
| in photos ...
| x0x0 wrote:
| I dunno, manufacturers seem to love those bright blue LEDs.
| Maybe they're the cheapest? But I can't be the only person
| who finds them annoying. I have multiple devices where I can
| cover the blue leds with a layer or two of tape and they're
| still too bright. Let alone their use in a dark room.
| airhead969 wrote:
| My kettle was cheap AND works well. What's the problem? Cherry-
| picking?
| [deleted]
| helij wrote:
| When we moved countries we only brought 2 suitcases each. Left
| all at home. Now I wish I sorted a van to bring everything with
| us.
|
| After five years I am still looking for high quality cutlery that
| will not stain after a month. We went through three sets and
| never opted for the cheapest one. All of them stained even though
| it says stainless steel on them. I have cutlery at home from 80's
| and it never stained and still going strong. I brought a few
| pieces back with us after visiting old country and the difference
| in quality is obvious.
| ce4 wrote:
| Which countries?
|
| I got a good set some years ago, from German brand WMF. Doesnt
| stain and it is scratch proof & nice. Also stays sharp and
| hasnt needed sharpening in 8 years.
|
| Edit: maybe the water scale/salt levels are different in the
| new location? Or maybe it's the different cleaning agent in the
| dishwasher
| helij wrote:
| From central Europe to UK.
|
| It's the product as I did bring the 'minimum set' with me
| when we came for first few days. Those forks, kives and
| spoons are still like new.
|
| I'll check WMF, thanks!
| ce4 wrote:
| You're welcome. I bought the "Chromargan" alloy series:"WMF
| Vision", btw :-)
|
| Edit: i also suggest to check out the different models in
| person. The blades have different thicknesses and handles
| have different shapes, its not easy to get an idea what
| fits best from the pictures alone. Took me an hour of
| thinking until i made my choice. Ps: found a nice
| comparison on YT, the guy expanded his set from 6 to 12
| persons in 2018 and holds a daily driven knife from 2008
| (left side) against a new one (right side). Only micro
| scratches according to the (german) video and no stains at
| all. Also mentions that its still sharp.
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WhxZQL5W1a8&t=110
| [deleted]
| ce4 wrote:
| And make sure to get a "cromargan protect"-named set.
| Just looked up "Vision" on amazon, it's expensive (12
| persons set is 700PS) :-) but still recommended, the more
| expensive sets have better steel and thinner blades. This
| set is great for both steaks and spreading butter. Also,
| you can start small and extend after some years (wmf
| cutlery has longterm availability)
| LegitShady wrote:
| > I am still looking for high quality cutlery that will not
| stain after a month.
|
| Stainless steel refers to corrosion resistance, and I don't
| know any cutlery that corrodes in a month, even from the dollar
| store.
|
| Are you talking hard water stains? What are you seeing on your
| cutlery that is causing this concern?
| helij wrote:
| But they unfortunately do corrode. Tiny visible stains. Most
| of the people wouldn't mind them probably but I do. It's just
| bad quality.
| jonsen wrote:
| I've baught the same kettle several times during more than 20
| years years. Very durable design. It fullfils all the points,
| except the bonus point. Price is close:
|
| https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Philips-HD4646-00-kettle-anti-lim...
| jacknews wrote:
| "Currently unavailable" LOL
| tnli wrote:
| Yeapp, that kettle got Hackernewsed SO badly!
| pmiller2 wrote:
| As someone who remembers very little of the German he took in
| college, I'd like to mention that I'm amused that a kettle is
| literally a "water cooker" ( _Wasserkocher_ ) in German.
| wolfretcrap wrote:
| According to some accounts Germans were unintelligible
| barbarians who couldn't have known cooking other than boiling
| bones to create broth.
| nwellnhof wrote:
| _kochen_ can mean _to cook_ or _to boil_ , so in this case
| _water boiler_ is the literal translation.
| ncmncm wrote:
| "'temporarily' out of stock"
| andi999 wrote:
| Why multiple times? What about durability?
| FridgeSeal wrote:
| Could have been for different people as presents? Lost in a
| move? Etc
| jonsen wrote:
| Presents. One new for myself. Edit: Two actually. Retired one
| after about 10 years for safety reasons. Still have it as a
| backup.
| lcabral wrote:
| Several times over the course of 20 years is not that bad.
| I'm guessing he wouldn't be buying it every 2 years (like
| common appliances that break apart right after guarantee
| period).
| londons_explore wrote:
| Some people I know have a 50 year old kettle. Sure, they
| look a bit old fashioned, and have marks and scratches, but
| they still 100% boil water.
|
| I don't really see any reason kettles can't be made to last
| that long - it isn't like the human need for boiling water
| is going away anytime soon.
|
| To get a design that lasts that long isn't much more
| expensive either - all it takes is very carefully recording
| what's broken on each kettle that fails, and modifying the
| design to avoid that failure mode. Within a few iterations,
| you'll end up with most kettles lasting 50 years.
| andi999 wrote:
| 50 years is a bit extrem, but my expectation would be 10
| years minimum.
| MrDresden wrote:
| Have just one year to go for my Wilfa kettle (2L,
| temperature control, has filter, wireless charging, pours
| badly though)
| jonsen wrote:
| I regularly use a Philips hand mixer, mostly for whipped
| cream, which was gifted to me in 1973.
| svl wrote:
| Came to recommend the same one. My first one stopped working
| after a decade, now been on the second one for six years. (The
| "stopped working" thing is not ideal, but given the constant
| use, also not a dealbreaker for an electrical appliance.) I
| most like it for the big ... 'spout'? that allows filling it
| without needing the lift the lid.
|
| I do remember it being the only decent option in the store. I
| guess other people have other priorities in kettles, for all
| those other models to stick around?
| jonsen wrote:
| Stop working is the right way. I was a guest once where the
| kettle set on fire. Recommended this on as replacement.
| bbarn wrote:
| Funny, I've spent entirely too much on the one I have in the US
| because it has a temperature control. I want my tea and coffee
| at hot, but below boiling so it doesn't wreck my mouth. He
| calls it a bonus but it's the one feature I actually care
| about.
| Normille wrote:
| You do realise you don't have to drink it while it's actually
| boiling, don't you? You can:
|
| 1: Leave it a few minutes to cool down
|
| 2: Blow on it
|
| Jeebus! --talk about 1st world problems!
| rhino369 wrote:
| Temperature control is also important if you aren't
| drinking black tea. Green, white, other other teas have
| optimal brewing temps.
|
| While you can stop the kettle at those temps that is a lot
| harder than it happening manually.
| adamcstephens wrote:
| I just put a couple ice cubes in my cup and pour the brewed
| tea in.
| morsch wrote:
| I just use a bit of tap water, the Dt is about the same
| and it's less wasteful.
| fanf2 wrote:
| We have a similar Breville kettle (it's a Strix design sold
| under several consumer brand names) and it doesn't have
| temperature control which is the cause of the OP's troubles.
|
| https://strix.com
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_(inventor)#Career
| kristaps wrote:
| Similar Philips story for me - had several pairs of SHP2000
| (and HP200, which is basically an earlier model nr for the same
| exact headphones) over the last 20+ years. They're comfy, sound
| great for their price and the quality hasn't become worse over
| the years.
| 65a wrote:
| I got a pair of HP200s in the 90s for 40 guilders ($20 USD).
| Easily the best value headphones I have ever purchased, was a
| shame when they got stolen.
| fortran77 wrote:
| I had the same issue buying an electric kettle for my 87 year old
| mother who had been boiling water on the stove and forgetting she
| had it on. I didn't want her to burn the house down.
| type0 wrote:
| I know someone who bought an electric kettle for his geriatric
| mom, this electric kettle was metal with plastic underneath.
| You can imagine what happened to the electric stove when she
| tried to boil water and forgot how this thing actually worked.
| omniamutantur wrote:
| Definitely not capitalism to blame here, but the fact stands:
| despite an electric kettle being a very basic household appliance
| that is used everywhere, it is almost impossible to buy a
| product, that would reflect how long they have been around.
| Ideally, you would assume that todays kettles are the end product
| of decades of refinement and engineering and do their principal
| job well and last long.
|
| Well, they don't. Besides the points the author goes on about I
| have two primary issues:
|
| - Most kettles are not efficient. Stop the time they take to heat
| 1l of water from tap temperature to boiling. You get anything
| between 1:40min and +3min depending on your kettle. Mostly
| irrespective of price range. (Physical limit for the power plugs
| in my region would be ~1:30min).
|
| - Virtually all kettles have plastic that comes in contact with
| the water, specifically in their lid. While I am definitely not
| one to support fearmongering of "all these bad plastics" and "bad
| chemicals", I also believe this is a situation that should be
| avoided. We know that plastics in general but sometimes
| specifically in cheap products contain chemicals that are bad for
| our health. Now, at the lid of your kettle you condense boiling,
| distilled water which is quite perfect for chemical extraction.
| Even if I would trust the producer of my 20$ kettle to only use
| food-safe plastics that are even safe under long term contact
| with boiling water (I do not), I would prefer to have a lid from
| stainless steel. Now try buying that...
|
| Long story short: I think kettles (and toasters) would be a
| perfect start for an open hardware household appliance
| initiative. Spend some time and money on really engineering the
| shit out of some simple but ubiquitous household items and make
| the design freely available. Design kettles that do just one
| thing: boil water well. IMO this would be a boon for humanity.
| lmilcin wrote:
| The short answer is, companies produce what most people are
| willing to buy and produces most income. That is not the same as
| producing best products for customers.
|
| Some companies found the way to produce most income by offering
| best products for customers.
|
| I am not an expert on kettles and might of course be oblivious to
| some glaring obvious facts about kettle-making business.
|
| But it seems that it is very likely that good kettles just don't
| differ much form mediocre ones, when put on the shelf of the
| supermarket or when put on Amazon against competition that can
| buy a bunch of fake reviews. There would be no practical reason
| to spend a lot more on research to produce something that would
| not at all bring more income for the company.
|
| Most people will buy cheapest kettle that satisfies their basic
| requirements. For me this is: it keeps proper volume of water, it
| heats water quickly, does not smell, is easy to clean from scale.
| Mine is quite expensive compared to most kettles only because
| "does not smell" is very difficult to meet (or it was when I
| bought it a decade ago).
|
| There _are_ good kettles. These are produced by companies who
| found their niche producing for customers who just don 't care
| about how much stuff costs and will buy the best of each category
| regardless of how expensive it is. So while they might be good
| mechanically, I think overall they are not as good products when
| comparing return on the investment.
|
| **
|
| Now, as to filters, I would _NOT_ buy a kettle with a filter.
|
| Filter is something that keeps impurities and I definitely don't
| want that sitting hot in my kettle.
|
| Also, filter will not prevent scale from depositing. There is no
| practical way to prevent scale depositing other than using
| distilled water which will make everything taste awful and will
| probably not be good for your health.
|
| Contrary to popular opinion, "hard" water with lots of minerals
| is _better_ for your kettle than water with little minerals. The
| scale that deposits from hard water is very porous and it
| practically cleans itself and is easy to remove with a little bit
| of citric acid.
|
| The scale that deposits from water that has little minerals,
| depending on composition, can be very dense, hard and nonporous
| making it difficult to clean.
| yladiz wrote:
| > There is no practical way to prevent scale depositing other
| than using distilled water
|
| This isn't exactly true, scale builds up because of certain
| minerals, not just any mineral, so filtering for those achieves
| similar results. For example, soft water also doesn't build up
| scale. Anecdotally I make tea and coffee every day and use
| Brita filtered water and don't get scale build up in my kettle,
| whereas using tap water builds scale in only a couple uses.
| ericbarrett wrote:
| Seconded. We have extremely hard water and a water softening
| system (the kind you fill up with 50kg of salt or potassium
| every few months) + under-sink reverse osmosis. Water
| produced by the RO system can be boiled or evaporated with
| no, or at least microscopic, residue. Boil a liter or two of
| the untreated water and you'll be scouring the pan or kettle
| afterward.
| lmilcin wrote:
| This is very simple. If water leaves no residue then you
| have an equivalent of distilled water. Normal water for
| human consumption should contain palette of minerals. First
| to taste well, second to supplement your diet (supposedly,
| I don't have hard facts).
| dunefox wrote:
| > making it difficult to clean
|
| If scale == lime then vinegar gets rid of it easily.
| koliber wrote:
| Your response is great and on point. I am not OP, but the
| filter is not to prevent scale from depositing in the kettle.
| Nor is it for filtering out dissolved minerals in the water. My
| kettle often ends up having small grains is scale floating
| around freely. If I completely empty it, they go into my
| coffee. Such a filter would keep these bits away from my brew.
| ggm wrote:
| Bespoke good design exists. It's a niche, and rarely survives
| mass production if has moving parts or requires close tolerances,
| and unused features are whittled away.
|
| The original openwrt targeted a design of home router which was
| hackable. The first thing the v2 did was shrink the memory and
| run a simpler OS: it became less hackable, because the bill of
| materials shaved 15c off manufacturing costs and hackability was
| not in the design goal spec.
|
| Bauhaus design was awesome because it was applicable to mass
| production. But, if you look at modern derivative they aren't
| quite as good. Same with eames chair, and I guess, this kettle:
| it's not innately profitable to have a satisfying click when the
| lid shuts, at 2x the unit cost to make unless it's 10x the unit
| cost to sell
| engineer_22 wrote:
| Yeah, perhaps globalism doesn't give an opportunity for "pride
| in craft" the way it did in the old days.
| nmeofthestate wrote:
| I've never owned a kettle that proved to be a problem. I think
| I've owned about two kettles in total. Yay Capitalism.
| nanna wrote:
| You, sir, must either live somewhere with very soft water, or
| be very young, or be not from the British Isles?!
| coldtea wrote:
| It's not the responsibility of the kettle to fix the water.
| Put a filter in your tap or use bottled water.
| nanna wrote:
| Bottled water for a cup of tea?!
|
| Good idea about the filter.
| sova wrote:
| Once upon a time there were great kettles, for a relatively high
| price. More affordable alternatives with less integrity were
| created and higher priced kettles were forced out of the market
| because they generated smaller margins. It's similar to
| undercutting prices with neighborhood coffeeshops: with all the
| other coffeeshops gone, the remaining one gets all the business.
| Coffee has short-term value that is about the same no matter the
| cup of coffee; in my opinion a cup of coffee does not have a
| long-term value in economic-terms. A kettle has short-term value
| _and_ long-term value, but consumers are judging the price of the
| kettle not on a pro-rated per annum value for how long the kettle
| actually lasts, but on the immediate pricetag. If a kettle is
| $200 but lasts 20 years, that 's $10/year. If a kettle is $20 but
| lasts 6 months, that's actually $40/year. Just-in-time
| construction meets disposable-goods culture and all the good
| kettles are gone.
| heraclius wrote:
| I have a perfectly good one (Russell Hobbs, 3000W, no noises and
| so on, no lights, 1.7L, &c.)--https://www.amazon.co.uk/Russell-
| Hobbs-Colour-Plus-Kettle/dp.... I suppose it's because in Britain
| kettles are essential (for tea and so on.)
| anm89 wrote:
| Is something else producing better kettles than capitalism?
|
| Because I've got a pretty awesome kettle "from capitalism"
| sdflhasjd wrote:
| I believe the same problem exists with another kitchen appliance:
| toasters.
|
| Is there a single toaster able to consistently toast bread to the
| same level each time? The technology must exist.
| simonh wrote:
| The main problem is toasters generally toast the bread for a
| set (adjustable) time. When you toast the first slices the
| toaster starts cold, but when you toast more slices right after
| the toaster starts hot so the slices get toasted more.
| alkonaut wrote:
| If only there was some sort of "sensor for temperature" so
| the toaster could adjust the time with its temperature.
| wolfretcrap wrote:
| I think bigger problems is the moisture content of the bread
| itself.
|
| Unless your bread is fresh out of the pack, depending on
| where you brought it from either refrigerator or rack, it's
| moisture content is going to vary changing your toasting
| time.
| chaos_a wrote:
| This one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y
| jiehong wrote:
| Oh yes!
|
| Technology Connections made a video about just that, and it's
| crazy that bread colour control just no longer exists!
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y
| simonsarris wrote:
| The breville toaster _ovens_ work fairly well. If you have it
| set to "6" and toast some bread, and put more bread in
| immediately afterwards, it correctly reduces the toasting time,
| since it is already warm.
| danaris wrote:
| I've had one of these for nearly a decade now, and I love it.
| I even use it in place of the regular oven when I've got
| something that needs baking that's small enough to fit, just
| because it takes about 1/4 the time to come up to
| temperature.
|
| Since the bread is flat in there, it also makes it much
| easier to melt cheese on top of it without either getting the
| bread hot enough to melt it all by itself (which would surely
| leave it much browner than I like), or microwaving, which
| makes the bread soft and moist.
| jpxw wrote:
| Commercial toasters, like those used in restaurants and hotels,
| do this.
| MrDresden wrote:
| Sadly for a ludicrous price.
|
| I don't mind paying for quality, but a 700-1000$ for a
| toaster is too much
| LegitShady wrote:
| It's not even the price. I have a commercial toaster
| sitting in the garage, works well. But I don't have counter
| space or a need for a toaster with a conveyor belt. I'm
| just not making that much toast.
| westcort wrote:
| I recommend using a microwave to heat water (with a porous wooden
| stirring rod to prevent overheating).
|
| I cook all of my food in a microwave using techniques and
| technology developed in the 70s. Browning pans have evolved since
| then and I can cook better food than ever in one sixth of the
| time. My oven/grill is called a MicroPro and is made by
| Tupperware. It is actually life changing. My wife cooks for me
| consistently for the first time in our marriage of 10 years, I
| never get burned cooking, and we get 2 hours back in every day.
|
| I am convinced that the microwave cooking movement was opposed by
| the fossil fuel industry and oven manufacturers.
| ArkanExplorer wrote:
| Electric pressure cookers can achieve the same thing and
| arguably produce tastier food. The electricity use is probably
| even less than a microwave due to the lack of evaporation.
| LegitShady wrote:
| pressure cookers require WET food. They're only for a subset
| of food.
| keenreed wrote:
| I grown up in communism. It was impossible to buy stainless steel
| kettle. Our industry simply could not produce that material, and
| borders were closed. Today it is recommended not to buy cheap
| kettles from communist asia, it may contain poisonous bromine.
|
| Today I just use dumb kettle on induction stove. Never breaks and
| saves space.
| jacknews wrote:
| Great idea, and in theory the induction cooker should be able
| to detect temperature, to turn off when the water boils, and
| also be able to function as a rice cooker etc.
|
| But I've never seen one with a temperature sensor or probe.
| keenreed wrote:
| Or just use timer...
| jacknews wrote:
| And a huge table of times depending how much water, what
| kind of rice, etc, etc.
|
| With a temp sensor you could also do pseudo sous-vide
| (pseous-vide?).
| jiehong wrote:
| Actually, they do have a temperature sensor that is used to
| turn off the induction over a critical temperature.
|
| But it's below the glass top, so it lags behind the real
| temperature, only tread the temperature of the bottom of the
| pot. This makes it unreliable for fine temperature control.
|
| I have a portable one that gives you the possibility to set
| the temperature you want by 20 degrees, but it's not fine
| enough for tea (40, 60, 80, 100, 120... degrees Celsius)
|
| Only just ok for Chinese hotpot:
|
| https://www.amazon.de/Klarstein-Einzel-
| Induktionskochplatte-...
| torgian wrote:
| Big brain here. Kettle on a stove will never break, and if your
| stove breaks you have other problems anyway.
| keenreed wrote:
| Two plate stove was like 100 euro. It has normal tactile
| buttons, not that glass touch insensitive junk.
| aj7 wrote:
| You're just glorifying poverty. Nevertheless, you're not
| wrong.
| Daho0n wrote:
| Which "communism"? Even North Korea makes stainless and have
| for ages. I'm guessing it were cost, not that they couldn't.
| p2t2p wrote:
| It very much does. Classic kettle for gas stove by Kitchen Aid
| raverbashing wrote:
| Well the one I use currently I think falls on the category of
| "disco lights" though it doesn't bother me at night
|
| There was probably a reason why that kettle went out of
| production, maybe it was related to the defect you had, who knows
|
| Limescale filter? Use a jug filter before putting the water on
| the kettle. No limescale and much better taste.
| Singletoned wrote:
| No filter jug removes all the limescale in hard water areas.
| You still need a filter on the kettle
| ALittleLight wrote:
| Why would a filter on a kettle remove what a filter on a jug
| doesn't?
| sneak wrote:
| Because the concentrations in the kettle increase locally
| due to boiling, and there is precipitate that doesn't
| happen in the filter jug.
| developer92 wrote:
| A jug filter is much bigger and uses a different mechanism,
| a kettle filter is just a mesh to anything bigger than a
| large grain of sand in the kettle.
| nobodyandproud wrote:
| There are two drivers at work here: - Luring customers to buy
| your brand (and not someone else's) - Enticing customers to
| upgrade (think cars jam packed with undesirable features).
|
| It's very easy to list features, whereas a good portion of your
| list is harder to quantify; or taken for granted until it's
| bought.
|
| Another standard practice is to stuff more "smart" settings; that
| also drives up cost so corners are cut elsewhere (or now, your
| information is sold; I'm looking at you, Neato).
|
| As long as consumers let themselves get fooled by this, this will
| continue on.
| enriquto wrote:
| Once a product is good and sells well, all the incentive goes to
| aggressively reducing costs (and thus making the product worse)
| and making sure that no other good products appear. A stable
| state of this situation is that every company is making low-
| quality products.
| sahbasanai wrote:
| Hi, author here. Thanks for your comment.
|
| Follow up question: can't a competitor make a kettle that's 20%
| better (and more profitable)? You do say that the incentive
| goes to "making sure that no other good products appear", but
| I'm not sure how a Bosch can stop a Cuisinart from making a
| slightly superior (and more profitable) kettle.
| [deleted]
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Maybe. A competitor, however, can't make people pay more for
| a kettle that's insufficiently marginally better.
|
| Considering these are multinational companies doing at least
| tens of millions in business every year, I presume they have
| the expertise to do obvious market research and come to the
| correct conclusions about what and how much people are
| willing to pay for, and that is reflected in the choices you
| see in the marketplace.
| sahbasanai wrote:
| That's a good point. Thanks. So I guess it boils down to
| (heh) "most consumers are happy with the existing kettles"
| (which could actually negate the very premise of my
| article.
| pmiller2 wrote:
| Planned obsolescence is also a factor. See, for example, the
| Phoebus cartel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel
|
| Other examples abound. The modern version of planned
| obsolescence is corporations using the DMCA to prevent
| consumers from repairing their own stuff.
| enriquto wrote:
| A certain amount of planned obsolescence can be a force for
| good. It makes sure that production capacity does not become
| stagnant and disappear. But senseless cost reduction is an
| atrociously bad thing.
| taylorfinley wrote:
| I draw a hard moral line here: Intentionally designing
| failure into a product is just plain wrong.
|
| I don't mean fail safes, like building a table saw that
| fires an explosive charge to stop a spinning blade when it
| detects the presence of a finger [0]. If some given
| production capacity can only be sustained by selling fresh
| barrels of oil converted into easily-broken home goods is
| it worth sustaining?
|
| [0] https://sawstop.com
| enriquto wrote:
| On the other hand, perishable stuff is pretty natural. If
| anything, it is non-perishable stuff that seems odd...
| There's nothing eternal in an ecosystem. Individual
| animals and plants die continuously and their stuff is
| recycled on an on. The individual cells on your body die
| and are replaced.
|
| While I absolutely abhor that you cannot buy a toaster
| that lasts more than two years, I still see a case for
| well-thought-out obsolescence to be an important
| ingredient in sustainability.
|
| Think about a spaceship that is moving a city to another
| star system for a multi-generation trip. Would you embark
| anything that is non-perishable? What if it breaks by
| accident? It is maybe better to make sure that nothing
| lasts more than a generation, so that there's always
| people having the experience to build it again (because
| they have already built it before).
|
| I'm not convinced by your "moral hard line" against
| planned obsolescence. It is a matter of quantity: today
| our technology is sadly too perishable. But a (tiny)
| amount of planned obsolescence may still be a good thing.
| Just don't say it too loud :)
| 8note wrote:
| Mechanical design is all about designing failures.
|
| You want the thing to break in a safe way where you can
| tell before hand that it's aging and needs replacement
| pmiller2 wrote:
| That's not designing failure _into_ a product. That's
| designing a product so that when it does, it fails in
| specific ways. The latter is just good product design and
| engineering; the former is what's arguably unethical.
| chii wrote:
| quality isn't a binary state, but a continuum.
|
| Therefore, by adjusting the quality down a little bit, the
| company gets a bit of feedback as to how low quality a typical
| consumer is able to tolerate at their price point.
|
| So i think ultimately the responsibility lies with the consumer
| to demand the quality they want by purchasing good quality
| stuff, even if it costs more, and to educate themselves to
| discern what is quality and what is fluff.
| developer92 wrote:
| Spoken like a person with a good income. The principal is
| fine, but the definition of expensive varies by person and
| product.
| helij wrote:
| The issue is that higher price and promise of quality does
| not reflect reality once you start using the item. We paid
| PS100+ for a cutlery set and it still stained for example.
| danielscrubs wrote:
| Maybe it's users fault but wouldn't that imply that buying
| good ratings on sites like Amazon would be fruitless? If
| users don't care that is.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-03-13 23:02 UTC)