[HN Gopher] Overview of Early Electric Cars
___________________________________________________________________
Overview of Early Electric Cars
Author : rsj_hn
Score : 53 points
Date : 2021-03-11 11:34 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.lowtechmagazine.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.lowtechmagazine.com)
| fy20 wrote:
| Does anyone have any reading material on the history of control
| systems of electric vehicles? Today most EVs use AC motors with a
| inverter - a bunch of power transistors - that convert DC to AC,
| adjusting the frequency as required by the motor (that's what the
| hum you hear is). However obviously that wasn't the case 100
| years ago, or even 50 years ago when electric (trolley) buses
| were still used in many parts of the world.
| VBprogrammer wrote:
| Electric trams of the era used essentially large resistors
| banks and series parallel switching to control power. I expect
| it was much the same for electric cars, perhaps tapping off or
| rewiring part of the battery bank. The total amount of power
| probably made simple on-off control almost practical anyway.
| mattlondon wrote:
| It is interesting to see sentiment change over the years on
| hacker news.
|
| First EVs were too expensive. Then they were too slow/couldn't
| tow. Then the range was too small.
|
| Now people are griping that they can't "refuel" in 5 mins.
|
| I guess we will see what the next excuse becomes for people to
| continue polluting and why EVs "aren't ready" for their
| hypothetical/once-a-year/niche needs.
|
| Sigh.
| donjoe wrote:
| Consider living in the early 2000s and replace 'digital camera'
| vs 'analog camera' with 'dinosaur burning vehicles' vs
| 'electric vehicles'.
|
| Same discussion, different technology. We all know how it ended
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| Hypx wrote:
| The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once fuel
| cell cars come around. Nearly all of the criticism of this
| argument are just a mirror of the arguments against EVs (often
| made by pro-EV people no less).
|
| So the real misunderstanding isn't with anti-EV people, but
| with pro-EV denying that there's a future beyond EVs.
| Gibbon1 wrote:
| I think fuel cells window of opportunity is closing fast and
| they have no traction despite a lot of investment.
|
| EV's weight penalty is going away as battery energy density
| relentlessly increases. EV's capital expense penalty is also
| going away due to mass manufacturing improvements.
|
| Charging infrastructure for EV's is basically a last 50 foot
| problem. Running 30 amp 240 circuit from a breaker box to an
| external outlet. Compare with the infrastructure needed for
| the 'hydrogen economy'. Every bit of it needs to be designed
| and built from scratch. Countries have built stuff like that
| but it takes decades. We don't have decades.
| Hypx wrote:
| You can't build a "lead" as if this was a race. For one
| thing, there's no finish line. There's nothing stopping
| fuel cell cars from having their own technology revolution
| and a S-curve like adoption curve that displaces everything
| else. This could happen ever after EVs "win" over internal
| combustion so to speak. It's fully possible that EVs are
| still on-track to being replaced no matter what happens
| next.
|
| The other thing is that we still have to pay attention to
| fundamental limitations. There are hard limits to battery
| energy density that likely to never be crossed. Extremely
| fast-charging will probably always be limited by its high
| power power draw. Meanwhile, fuel cell technology is
| advancing extremely quickly in its own right. We could be
| seeing fuel cell cars that cost as much as a Corolla[1],
| and cost only $1.5/kg[2] to refuel (or about 2-3C/ per
| mile). In a world were fuel cell cars cost <$20k and are
| cheaper to run than EVs, while also delivering 400 miles of
| range and 5-minute refueling times, EVs quickly lose much
| of their luster.
|
| [1] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26050/exclusive-toyota-
| hydroge...
|
| [2] https://renewablesnow.com/news/nel-aiming-at-green-
| hydrogen-...
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > The fundamental problem is that EVs might be doomed once
| fuel cell cars come around.
|
| Fuel cell cars are EVs.
| Hypx wrote:
| Yes, but people get confused. Hence why EVs should be
| referred to as BEVs, and fuel cell cars as FCEVs.
| pedrocr wrote:
| Fuel-cell proponents keep claiming they're just around the
| corner but the issues with them are fundamental. ~3x the
| total energy use because of all the inefficiencies, and
| needing an all new infrastructure compared to BEVs where the
| grid is already everywhere. If FCEVs show up and are actually
| usable that would be fine but I wouldn't bet on it. They're
| mostly brought out as an argument for staying on ICEs until,
| real soon now, we'll finally have them. Maybe for long sea
| shipping hydrogen will work, but even for trucking the 3x
| energy input needed is hard to justify.
| Hypx wrote:
| There's nothing stopping FCEVs from being as efficient as
| BEVs. Even now, huge improvements are being found like 90%
| efficient electrolysis[1]. Future improvements in hydrogen
| and fuel cell technology could close the gap entirely.
|
| Like I said, you're repeating many arguments that are a
| mirror of the arguments made against BEVs. It's pretty
| ridiculous to just repeat anti-EVs for something else while
| being pro-EVs.
|
| The other thing is that this viewpoint is increasingly
| outdated. A lot of these "facts" date to the 2010s or
| earlier. These are more inline with a person being out of
| touch than someone that is informed.
|
| [1] https://www.greencarcongress.com/2021/03/20210307-topso
| e.htm...
| dvh wrote:
| Perfect EV (for me) was already made. Citroen Ami. $6000, 75km
| range.
| agumonkey wrote:
| You tried it yourself ? (just curious)
| lurkmurk wrote:
| But all of those are still true. I would argue that public
| transport should replace cars for commute which is most of the
| "non-niche" usage.
|
| Public transport can't get you anywhere, on your own terms?
| Sounds familiar.
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| They are not simultaneously true. The new Model S Long Range
| has 412 mi range. All of them can tow, but they are all
| fairly expensive.
|
| The cheapest Model 3 isn't cheap, but definitely getting
| there.
| lurkmurk wrote:
| It's better but not great. Not everyone can afford tesla.
| Western goverments and big companies are to blame for lack
| of incentives and infrastructure. People buy what makes the
| most sense, and petrol is better for many people. This can
| be changed.
|
| I think that everyone would instantly switch to EV if it
| had the same properties but had a battery instead of a
| tank. They are faster, silent, cleaner, but it's up to
| leaders to bridge the gap making them economically viable.
| tonyedgecombe wrote:
| I've assumed its just a problem of demand for batteries
| exceeding supply. If a manufacturer can only make a small
| number of cars because they are restricted by battery
| supply then they are going to mark up the price to
| maximise their profit. As more battery supply becomes
| available the prices should fall.
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _The cheapest Model 3 isn 't cheap, but definitely
| getting there._
|
| Prices are heading in the wrong direction at the moment:
|
| https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/tesla-model-s-
| model-3-mod...
| zozin wrote:
| Those aren't excuses, those are legitimate gripes/complaints.
| If EVs were that great, they would've beat ICE, especially
| since they're available at artificially lower prices
| (subsidies). EV sales are microscopic vs. ICE because EV
| offerings are inferior.
| markvdb wrote:
| Both electric and ICE cars are being subsidised:
|
| - direct car purchase subsidies (almost exclusively electric)
|
| - oil production subsidies. You might want to have a look at
| [0].
|
| - wind and solar electricity production subsidies.
|
| - road infrastructure building and maintenance.
| - Road and fuel taxes do not cover this. - Usually
| higher for the same size electric car because heavier. That
| could change with battery and charging tech improvements
| though...
|
| - ...
|
| One could also argue that the following heavyweights should
| be included:
|
| - oil wars.
|
| - untaxed negative environmental externalities:
| - oil spills - CO2 and other harmful gas emissions
| - car tire particles from both ICE and electric cars ...
|
| [0] http://www.taxpayer.net/wp-
| content/uploads/ported/images/dow... .
| amelius wrote:
| Exhaust pipe should end in the cabin. Then people will stop
| their excuses.
| ianai wrote:
| Well I drive a 250 mile round trip every week or every other.
| Range does matter.
| mattlondon wrote:
| 250 miles is within range of a bunch of different cars - and
| not just Tesla or luxury brands but also Fords, Skodas,
| Nissan, and Volkswagens too. At UK speed limits that is like
| 3.5 continuous hours driven at 70mph (in reality you'd not be
| doing 70 all the time either)... Most people would take a bio
| break and maybe a coffee in there somewhere and fast charging
| for 15 mins at 100+kw can give some decent top-up (e.g. ID.3
| does over 500miles per hour charging, so just 5mins while you
| go take a piss is another 40 miles range added)
|
| https://ev-
| database.uk/#sort:path~type~order=.price~number~a...
| cujo wrote:
| The catch is when it's cold out. I'm in a similar
| situation. ~120 miles one way. My Nissan Leaf gets ~140
| miles per charge, and it works fine in the
| spring/summer/fall.
|
| In the winter I get about 90 miles on full charge, so not
| only am I stopping to charge, but I have to be at full
| charge when I leave. Also consider that the only fast
| charging station on my route is right around 30 miles in,
| and I'm running "on fumes" every trip.
|
| I know there are cars with bigger batteries that will make
| it. But I also know they are another ~$10k, which is a
| significant upcharge.
| bobajeff wrote:
| They are still to expensive for me. Also, I get all my cars
| used.
|
| Outside of that I'm still _concerned_ about the carge time. If
| I drive out of town to visit my folks and I 'm low on gas I can
| just fill up mid trip no problem. How does that work if it
| takes an hour (a generous guess based on my phone) to charge?
|
| That said I think the tech is cool and am looking forward to
| the price coming down.
| em-bee wrote:
| for an 8 hour trip you might budget an hour lunchbreak
| anyways. so an hour full recharge time is manageable. if you
| are almost there already, you won't need a full charge to
| make it.
| clouddrover wrote:
| The problem is the same as its always been: the batteries still
| aren't quite good enough. Batteries still need to become cheaper,
| safer, more energy dense, more durable, and faster charging.
|
| But the good news is that batteries are improving year by year.
| Probably by 2025 there will be large scale production of EVs with
| solid-state batteries with better energy density, safety, and
| charging speeds.
|
| It'll also be good to see cars start to make use of ultra-
| capacitor buffers to more efficiently recuperate braking energy.
| The more you can protect the main battery with a capacitor
| buffer, the longer it'll last.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| I think they are. Most new electric cars are like at least 250
| mile range, and Tesla's flagship Model S starts out at over 400
| mile range (and their 520 mile range version will be available
| in about 12 months... that's more than most conventionally
| fueled cars). Charge speed is fine (you'll spend less time
| overall than you spend at gas stations) and safety is overall
| superior. Battery life is also not a concern as the battery in
| these vehicles will outlast the car.
|
| I just don't think people realize that batteries actually are
| plenty good enough now. No breakthrough is needed. It's about
| driving down the cost to as low as possible and scaling out
| charging standards and networks. And ultimately, just banning
| new conventional cars outright (starting out by requiring all
| new vehicles to have a plug in a few years).
| literallycancer wrote:
| Let's see. A 2011 diesel sedan can go about 900km before
| refueling. There's maybe 2 charging stations within 50 km of
| my central European location. So, the best experience I can
| have with an electric car right now is to spend a 100k on a
| car that doesn't work unless I live next to the charging
| station, or takes a day to charge. Oh and the car that I
| already have is not designed by Californians, so there's no
| stupid shit like a trunk full of snow every time you open it.
|
| I think I'll still go with the autism causing, dinosaur
| burning dumpster fire on wheels for now.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| That would explain why Electric cars aren't popular in
| Norway... oh wait:
| https://cleantechnica.com/2021/03/02/norway-
| at-79-1-plugin-e...
| literallycancer wrote:
| Norway just taxes fossil fuel cars so much that it's
| cheaper to buy a Tesla. They are like a Gulf state. Low
| population and a lot of oil. Plus the abundant hydro. I
| wouldn't draw too many conclusions from that.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| > (you'll spend less time overall than you spend at gas
| stations)
|
| Curious how you are calculating this. I usually spend about
| 60-120 seconds refilling my tank once every 300 miles. (15
| gallon tank, about 30 mpg).
|
| Because gas stations are everywhere, I never have to plan a
| specific route based on availability of gas stations, or use
| an app to find where the stations are, or even think about
| how much gas I have, as I know there is a station on the way
| to wherever I am going, and all I need to do is pull over. I
| even have the luxury of refusing to stop at gas stations on
| the left side of the road because there will be another
| station a block down on the right side.
|
| But with electric you have to go out of your way to find a
| charging station and it takes longer than 100 seconds to
| fully charge your car. So how can it be less time overall?
| sokoloff wrote:
| I'd time your next fuel stop. Start a phone video recording
| and measure the time from making the right turn into the
| station and stop it once you're back on the road. It's
| never going to be 2 minutes and will often be more like 10
| minutes.
|
| In contrast, if you have a plug at your house, you spend
| well under a minute to plug and unplug.
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _So how can it be less time overall?_
|
| If you can charge at home overnight (or at work during the
| day) then you won't need to go anywhere else.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| If a car never breaks down, then you don't need to waste
| time at a mechanic, either.
| samcheng wrote:
| This metaphor doesn't make sense to me. As a matter of
| course, a gasoline car needs gasoline; unless you live on
| a farm with delivered fuel, that means going to the gas
| station for it.
|
| An electric car needs only electricity to operate, which
| is already distributed via wires to everyone's home.
|
| Both cars need tires; electric cars also need
| significantly less scheduled maintenance. No oil changes,
| no timing belt, etc.
| rsj_hn wrote:
| The point being that estimating the expectation of
| something by excluding an important part of the event
| space yields a false estimate. No one believes that
| everyone always charges their cars at home and that
| charging stations are not needed, otherwise there would
| be no demand to build them. But when called out on the
| inconvenience of these stations there is a retreat to
| "oh, I only charge at home" and so that is the only case
| in which to take charge convenience into account.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| It's not a retreat. I drive a plug-in electric hybrid
| car, and I almost never visit a gas or charging station.
| Maybe every 6 months (I only use a little gas if I exceed
| the 35 mile electric range... I never drive 400 miles a
| day except on long road trips). I just charge at home.
| It's way more convenient than gas stations.
|
| People who have never owned electric cars just don't grok
| this. Yes, some people live in apartments which often
| have no outlets for charging your car (altho they
| definitely do some places), but this is a minority of
| people in the US and so it's fair to say that overall you
| likely will spend a lot less time charging than a typical
| gas car owner spends at gas stations. It's a perfectly
| defensible statement.
| samcheng wrote:
| With electric you plug the car in overnight while it is
| parked. It is full every morning, and you never need to go
| out of your way to charge it unless you are on an intercity
| trip.
|
| It really is more convenient than gasoline!
| rsj_hn wrote:
| I don't think most people would consider only charging at
| home an advantage or "convenience". If you even need to
| go to a charging station once and spend a half hour to an
| hour there, that becomes very inconvenient, even if you
| only need to do that once a month.
|
| Most people would like to have a charging station always
| nearby so that it becomes stateless for them, so that
| they don't need to think about how much they drove that
| day, and they want the charging to happen within a minute
| or so to view it as equally convenient as gas.
|
| PEV have many advantages, but let's be realistic -- the
| convenience of charging is a disadvantage.
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| It's a huge convenience! I love not having to get to the
| gas station (it always at the least convenient time).
| Andys wrote:
| If you have a garage and a power point at home, you just
| leave it plugged in while you're not using it. You don't
| really even have to think about it - definitely more
| convenient than having to find a gas station once a week
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Also this assumes you have a driveway that has a charge
| point hooked up.
|
| This does nothing for, say, most apartment buildings
| which don't have charge points, or people who park on the
| street.
| samcheng wrote:
| That's true; we're going to want a substantial
| improvement in charging infrastructure over the next
| decade.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| We need outlets in apartment parking lots (they already
| have light poles, and block heater outlets are common in
| northern areas) and off-street parking. It's pretty cheap
| to just add outlets.
| sidpatil wrote:
| Assuming that the existing wiring can support the
| increased demand.
| [deleted]
| clouddrover wrote:
| No, you need to think about what it means when all cars are
| electric. Current charging speeds lead to long queues at
| chargers like this:
|
| https://www.thedrive.com/news/31274/more-teslas-on-the-
| road-...
|
| No car on the road at the moment is capable of making full
| use of 350 kW CCS chargers (the Porsche Taycan comes closest
| at 270 kW). Ideally you'd want a flat charging curve at 350
| kW to allow for more cars to be served by each charger.
|
| If you had a flat charging curve at 350 kW it would take
| about 13 minutes to go from 0 to 80% state of charge on a 100
| kWh battery. Still slower than fueling an ICE car and still
| not full battery capacity, but you should be able handle 4
| cars per hour per charger.
| lenkite wrote:
| They really need to make swappable batteries which are pre-
| charged and ready to 'fit in'. This current charging
| network simply does not scale IMHO.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| They don't. Tesla tried and stopped after a short time.
| It's just not worth it as charging has got much better.
|
| Charging scales better than any other new load we've
| added to the grid (such as air conditioning) as the vast
| majority of charging will be flexible within roughly 24
| hours. After doubling like once a decade or so for a
| century, electricity demand has been constant or even
| falling for the last 5-10 years, which has been a major
| strain on utility finances. The extra flexible demand
| from electric cars is going to be hugely important for
| funding the maintenance and upgrading of our electric
| grid.
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _Tesla tried and stopped after a short time. It's just
| not worth it as charging has got much better._
|
| Nio has succeeded where Tesla failed. Nio does swapping
| and charging:
|
| https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a33670482/nio-
| swappable-ba...
|
| https://insideevs.com/news/448165/nio-
| completed-1-millionth-...
| Robotbeat wrote:
| This is just the wrong way to think about scaling electric
| cars.
|
| Current electric cars do about 90% of their charging at
| home. As the battery size increases, this number would (for
| the same people) actually INCREASE. I do DC fast charging
| for my 80 mile range Leaf, but for well over a year I
| haven't gone more than 100 miles from home with it. If I
| had a 250 mile Bolt or whatever, I would've had no reason
| for any away from home charging. 300, 400, and 500 mile
| electric cars (like Tesla offers) have even less reason to
| charge not-at-home.
|
| And Level 1 and 2 charging at home or work or other
| destinations is WAY cheaper per watt of installed charging
| capacity than DC fast chargers. So if you want ubiquitous
| electric cars, the solution isn't to just scale out DC fast
| charging, but instead make exterior outlets ubiquitous. Add
| a relay-controlled outlet to every light pole and parking
| meter. All apartment parking lots. Many business parking
| lots.
|
| Cost per watt for DC fast chargers is around $1. For a home
| charger, it's about $0.10 to $0.20, and often essentially
| "free" as you just use the included charger and plug into
| an external outlet or a drier outlet in a garage.
|
| DC fast charging stations should be reduced in cost, but
| you don't need to increase the speed that much as there are
| diminishing returns to doing so. Just add more slots.
|
| It is on long trips where DC fast charging is largely
| unavoidable, but even still, 500 mile range covers quite a
| lot of area and all but likely-multi-day trips. If I can
| charge at my destination, I don't necessarily need a fast
| charger.
|
| The solution is to make sure there's enough L1 (external
| outlets, which are only like $100 apiece) and L2 chargers
| (can be bought for as low as $200 now... with installation
| cost no more than, say, an RV or drier outlet) so that you
| DON'T need such massive DC fast charging infrastructure.
|
| This is hard when few people have electric cars but becomes
| much easier when most people do as apartment complexes will
| install outlets on parking spaces as a matter of course.
| Same for workplaces, metered parking spots, etc.
|
| A cheap IOT-controlled-relay external outlet is something
| that would really help make this more practical. Hard to
| get traction when electric cars are a small portion of
| overall cars.
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _This is just the wrong way to think about scaling
| electric cars._
|
| Nope. It's the practical reality of what needs to happen
| when there are ever more electric cars on the road.
| _ph_ wrote:
| It is less about charging speed but rather charger
| availability vs. demand. Of course, it is easer to provide
| high availability if the charging/refueling ist relatively
| fast, but at any given speed you can compute the number of
| charge/refueling points needed to prevent waiting times
| beyond a given limit. There can be hour-long queues at fuel
| stations too, just there are enough fuel stations that this
| is a very rare thing, but just look at the people queuing
| up at fuel stations when a hurricane approaches.
| dmitriid wrote:
| > you should be able handle 4 cars per hour per charger.
|
| It's still abysmally slow.
| clouddrover wrote:
| Yes, there will still need to be more charge points than
| there are fuel pumps but your charging won't necessarily
| be exclusively at DC fast chargers. It will be a mix of
| DC and AC charging.
|
| For example, if you're on a road trip you might DC fast
| charge during the day and then slow charge overnight at a
| hotel so you start the day with a full battery.
| erik_seaberg wrote:
| I guess it's feasible, but as of last year I've never
| seen a charger at a hotel.
|
| My office had maybe a dozen, which is already not enough
| --EV drivers were required to go outside and move their
| cars after a few hours. I don't know how often someone
| who needs one is screwed.
| Robotbeat wrote:
| I always charge at my AirBNB. Just need an external 120V
| outlet. An RV-style outlet would work for L2 power
| levels. That's not that uncommon.
| erik_seaberg wrote:
| Is it hard to find one with a garage rather than street
| parking? They don't seem to offer a search filter for
| that.
| mettamage wrote:
| Silly question: to what extent can you extend the range of a
| car by adding solar panels on the roof in cloudy conditions? If
| that adds range of 10% extra, then why not do it?
|
| I figured they thought about this a long time ago, so I'm just
| wondering.
| TylerE wrote:
| Not nearly enough. Solar panels, under absolutely perfect
| conditions (perfect angling, no clouds, etc) produce about
| 15w per square foot. Even if you covered every bit of the
| upward facing surfaces, including the hood, with panels,
| that's going to peak at about 1kw of input - and since you'll
| be off axis all the time it'll be less than that.
|
| A Tesla battery pack is 100kw/h. So under perfect conditions
| you'd need 100 hours of charging to get one charge.
| fy20 wrote:
| The Prius Gen 3 had an option for a 'solar roof', but it's
| pretty much just a gimmick. The whole roof is 40W. All the
| panels do is power a fan to bring exterior air into the
| cabin, to keep it cooler during hot weather.
| clouddrover wrote:
| It depends how efficient the car is and how efficient the
| solar panels are.
|
| Here are some examples of solar cars and their solar range
| estimates:
|
| - Aptera: https://www.aptera.us/never-charge
|
| - Lightyear One: https://lightyear.one/technology
|
| - Sono Motors Sion: https://sonomotors.com/en/solar-
| integration/
|
| - Toyota Prius experimental prototype:
| https://newatlas.com/toyota-prius-solar-roof/60461/
|
| - The Hyundai Ioniq 5 has a small panel as an option, but you
| won't get much range out of it: https://pvbuzz.com/hyundai-
| ioniq-5-solar-panels/
| rsj_hn wrote:
| Honestly I think the issue isn't with batteries or current
| technology. My lay view is that the technology to make PEVs
| attractive is already here. What is not here is the eco-system.
|
| * Can you get the car serviced at an independent mechanic or do
| you have to go to the dealer and pay whatever they decide to
| charge you? No amount of battery innovation will overcome $1000
| bills to replace a door handle. Check out Rich Rebuild's
| youtube channel for a description of the service costs of
| keeping a Tesla running out of warranty:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq5c4jGR2gM&t=302s
|
| * Is there a large eco-system of after-market parts and third
| party warranty issuers? This is required to drive repair costs
| down.
|
| * Do we have good data on the lifetime of critical parts under
| actual use? This is required for consumers to estimate the
| operating costs over the life of the vehicle (whether or not
| they plan on selling it doesn't matter, as they will pay for
| those operating costs either in depreciation or in paying for
| repairs themselves)
|
| * Is there a robust country-wide charge network that compete
| with gas stations?
|
| * Is there a system to quickly get energy when you need it --
| e.g. either very fast (10 min) charging or a swap-in battery
| system to give you a quick 100 miles of range.
|
| These are not issues that require breakthroughs in solid state
| science. If the batteries don't last long, make it easier to
| service them or swap them out. If the range isn't so great,
| create a wider network of chargers. If the parts don't last as
| long, make them cheaper and easier to service by independent
| mechanics. Force a right to repair and diagnose for PEVs as we
| have for gas powered cars.
|
| IOW, rather than waiting on breakthroughs in materials science,
| infrastructure upgrades can solve these issues, but lack of
| infrastructure can't be solved by breakthroughs in battery
| life. As long as Tesla is a monopoly provider of parts and
| service, and as long as the infrastructure isn't there, upping
| the power to weight ratio of batteries by 30% isn't going to do
| much to reduce ownership risk to consumers, and PEVs will
| remain a niche market dominated by wealthy consumers who can
| bear ownership cost risk better than middle class people.
|
| * And of course, the electric grid needs a massive upgrade.
|
| All of the above is well within the reach of existing tech.
| Whether it's financially feasible is another question.
| geoduck14 wrote:
| In my opinion, we are trying to solve the "EV range issue" all
| wrong. We are looking at gas cars, and asking "how can we do
| the same thing, but with electricity" - and we get a
| substandard result.
|
| What we SHOULD do is: take a step back and ask "what do we
| REALLY want to achieve".
|
| We don't really want long range and fast charge. We DO want
| worry-free power wherever we choose to go. It isn't a novel
| concept to suggest: inductive charging from the road into the
| car (as you drive). There are probably other more practical
| ideas, too, but - and this is critical- you have to start
| asking the right questions.
| TylerE wrote:
| That's insane. Inductive charging is wildly inefficient.
|
| On typical phone chargers efficiency is about 60-70% max..and
| it goes down with distance.
| Nition wrote:
| So what we really need is a big network of overhead wires,
| trolleybus style.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Trolleybuses are very niche. The networks at least in
| North America have not expanded much, and many have
| shrunk since their heyday, because people find the wires
| a visual nuisance.
| Nition wrote:
| I wasn't really serious. Although I do quite like
| trolleybuses. Even if the infrastructure existed I'm sure
| you could never trust the average driver to keep their
| car attached to the rails; even the buses come off
| sometimes.
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _We don 't really want long range and fast charge_
|
| Yes we do. As the article demonstrates, they were making the
| same arguments 100 years ago.
|
| Lack of range and charging speed is why electric cars lost
| out to ICE cars 100 years ago. ICE cars simply took you
| further, faster (and still do).
| FullyFunctional wrote:
| more than 412 mi, faster than a Model S? This argument is
| completely ridiculous.
|
| Electric is already far superior for every day driving and
| close to parity for long distance (super charger is fast,
| but not yet quiet as fast as pumping gas - but if you have
| kids you'll welcome the break)
| clouddrover wrote:
| > _more than 412 mi_
|
| No, 400 miles is about right as an average range as long
| as your charging is fast. ICE cars achieve that easily.
| The Toyota Prius has 640 miles of range.
|
| > _faster than a Model S_
|
| Yes.
|
| > _close to parity for long distance_
|
| It isn't. There's no point pretending the situation is
| other than it is. You can do long distance driving in an
| EV but you are going to spend more time charging than you
| would spend fueling. That's just a practical reality.
|
| The Porsche Taycan is the fastest road tripping EV at the
| moment. It's helped by its fast charging capability:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFsjMvCFlig
|
| It's an expensive sports car and on price alone it will
| never be a mass market vehicle. EVs still need to charge
| faster than the Taycan.
|
| > _super charger is fast, but not yet quiet as fast as
| pumping gas_
|
| It's nowhere near as fast as pumping gas.
| jjav wrote:
| > inductive charging from the road into the car
|
| Society can't (for $REASONS) even get potholes reliably fixed
| in roads. The probability of something like installing
| inductive charging on every mile of interstate is effectively
| zero.
| cagenut wrote:
| The visuals in this are great. Its interesting to see how the
| materials and manufacturing complexity of what they could produce
| aren't far off what wealthy-hobbyest/niche-youtubers can do at
| home now. It'd be interesting to re-create one of these with
| modern parts.
| [deleted]
| Someone wrote:
| Those cars were popular (especially with women) because you
| didn't have to hand-crank them.
|
| Because of that it has been said that what made gasoline cars
| take over was the invention of the electric starter for gasoline
| cars.
| agumonkey wrote:
| "On the importance of user interface and ergonomics"
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2021-03-13 23:02 UTC)