[HN Gopher] China's $4k electric cars tap huge market Tesla can'...
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China's $4k electric cars tap huge market Tesla can't reach
Author : pseudolus
Score : 102 points
Date : 2021-03-11 11:15 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bloomberg.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bloomberg.com)
| weddpros wrote:
| only 5 full page reloads before I could finally accept that f*ing
| cookie dialog... gg bloomberg and europe
| pkulak wrote:
| Firefox, plus the reader button, my friend.
| phatfish wrote:
| I did it in no extra page loads.
| Black101 wrote:
| There's hopefully an addon to block all stupid cookie dialogs
| spiritplumber wrote:
| My mom who lives in Milan has had something similar for more than
| ten years and it works great. Cost a bit more than $4000 at the
| time, but not much more, and it's saved a lot of money in gas and
| taxes.
| sunstone wrote:
| I wonder how it does in the government safety ratings?
| nowherebeen wrote:
| It probably has the same safety rating as a scooter. These cars
| aren't meant for highways, but are great for urban commutes
| within a few kilometers. The perfect use case is if you need it
| just to get groceries.
| i_have_an_idea wrote:
| I don't dispute the use case for urban commuters and short
| distances, however, these things should absolutely have
| airbags. You can be the safest and most responsible driver,
| but some crazy a*hole can still slam into you head on with a
| SUV. Airbags should not be a cost cutting option.
| imhoguy wrote:
| And battery safety.
| jbay808 wrote:
| They're almost certainly using LiFePO4 chemistry, which tends
| to be pretty good for safety.
| topspin wrote:
| LiFePO4 gives up some energy density. Where have you
| learned what is typically used for batteries in these?
| LiFePO4 certainly is a safe choice.
| _ph_ wrote:
| Tesla certainly isn't in the market of $4k cars, but it is an
| interesting thought that with their new casting process, they
| could basically cast the backbone of a small car in one piece,
| lowering the assembly costs drastically. So if they ever decide
| to make a super-affordable mini car (perhaps for the Indian
| market?), it could be astonishingly cheap.
| onetimemanytime wrote:
| Yeah and Tesla can't tap the Boeing or Bugatti market.
|
| Different cars for different markets and budget. $4k car is great
| for driving a few miles or once a week. Or within city limits.
| Generally, you get what you pay for so a $4k can't offer what a
| $80K car does. Common sense.
| anti-shill wrote:
| the Straits Times has this same article, but without the paywall,
| just google the article title
| omarforgotpwd wrote:
| in February Tesla outsold this $4000 car (the Wuling HongGuang
| MiniEV)
|
| definitely a completely different market though. This car doesn't
| even have air bags
| llarsson wrote:
| I love the idea of a city-only electric car that is speed-capped
| at something reasonable.
|
| They would be the easiest to automate fully (lower risk of
| damaging pedestrians or others on the road) and do not pollute
| inside densely populated areas.
|
| Your average speed in a city center is pretty low anyway, so if
| it could be automated to avoid slow starts when lights turn green
| (I have to imagine that automated cars could simultaneously
| start, rather than having to make sure the car in front of you
| had committed to driving before you do) would actually improve
| the experience and average speed immensely.
| aksss wrote:
| An electric car that is charged from coal-generated power is
| basically a coal car.
| trixie_ wrote:
| Did you know that not all power comes from burning coal?
| [deleted]
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > An electric car that is charged from coal-generated power is
| basically a coal car.
|
| It's a "coal car" that's much easier to upgrade, _en masse_
| with millions like it, to end-to-end cleaner technology than a
| cat with an onboard fossil fuel engine.
| [deleted]
| dmurray wrote:
| 58% of Chinese electricity comes from fossil fuels [0], and
| that's dropping fast (65% in 2019). Also, the worst thing about
| a coal-fired car would be particulate pollution in the city
| where you drive it, so generating that electricity far away
| from the city helps a lot there.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_China
| [deleted]
| zozin wrote:
| Flame bait article. Tesla is a high-end/luxury brand trying to
| dabble in more affordable, but still luxurious vehicles. Those
| products are lower volume, but have higher margins. Imagine
| reading an article titled: China's Go-Kart is a Huge Market
| Volkswagen can't Reach. Ridiculous.
| ilamont wrote:
| A few years ago I drove one of these cars, which fell somewhere
| between a Yugo and a golf cart in terms of appearance, speed,
| passenger room, and (most importantly) safety.
| s1k3s wrote:
| Love the Musk army in this thread, eager to destroy any sort of
| competitor this brand has. You know you guys are the ones that
| benefit from this kind of market competition, right?
| Justin_K wrote:
| To be fair, these companies are selling to completely different
| customers and market segments. It's kind of silly to compare
| them.
| Reventlov wrote:
| Reminds me of the Citroen Ami for some reason:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBD0Q9p4bR4
| rasz wrote:
| in case anyone is wondering - $4500-5500 13.0kW motor 9-13kWh
| battery mobility scooter dressed in car shaped shell with a
| "quality somewhere between economy car and a public bathroom".
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11ExTYIEJm0
|
| tldr: great alternative to a scooter.
| foepys wrote:
| We have even smaller vehicles currently powered by 50ccm ICE in
| Germany. You only need a scooter license for them and they are
| being driven mostly by elderly or disabled people that either
| cannot get or don't want to pay about 1.500EUR for a full
| drivers license for cars. There aren't many of them on the
| road, I'd say less than 0.1%, but they do exist and I see one
| at least once a week.
|
| Another advantage is that they don't need to get inspected
| every other year by the authorities (TUV) and due to the
| standard 50ccm two-stroke scooter motor they are really cheap
| to maintain.
| aww_dang wrote:
| What are the brand and model names?
| foepys wrote:
| Aixam is one manufacturer and based in France as I'm now
| finding out. The models are relatively expensive, though,
| because they are not produced in high numbers.
|
| https://www.aixam.com/
| riffraff wrote:
| > driven mostly by elderly or disabled people
|
| how odd, in Italy small ICE vehicles in this category (which
| I believe is called "Light quadricycles" or L6e) seem to be
| marketed mostly to kids from affluent families. .
| llarsson wrote:
| That demographic makes for a more positive marketing
| campaign.
|
| Look at ads for fashion that actually targets older people.
| It will also feature people in their early thirties, at
| most. Everybody still knows exactly what the intention is.
| riffraff wrote:
| I know what you mean, but I meant that it's mostly young
| kids who "buy" them, it's become almost a stereotype.
| CydeWeys wrote:
| > Another advantage is that they don't need to get inspected
| every other year by the authorities (TUV) and due to the
| standard 50ccm two-stroke scooter motor they are really cheap
| to maintain.
|
| Ouch, these vehicles must be wrecking hell on local air
| quality.
| baybal2 wrote:
| 50cc all use two stroke engines
| rsj_hn wrote:
| I wonder how much horsepower you can get out of 50cc if you
| max it out with all the *chargers. Sounds like a cool
| opportunity for regulatory arbitrage.
| mpol wrote:
| In the times of 50cc road races you could get 10hp out of
| it, at maybe 17.000 rpm :) No idea how fast these cars
| would go with such an engine, they are not made to go
| 150km/h :) The way you tune a 2-stroke is by polishing the
| ports of the cylinder to have an almost perfect airflow. In
| the Netherlands this happened a lot in the sixties and
| seventies to ride at illegal speeds with your moped, it was
| considered a craft. In the eighties people just bought a
| replacement cylinder to go at illegal speeds.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_cc_Grand_Prix_motorcycle_r
| a...
| mpol wrote:
| So yes, ofcourse I ended up at youtube, if only for my
| own curiosity :)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1KXL1vjTX4
| swimfar wrote:
| 10hp from a 50c two-stroke is easy. Road racers were
| getting 17+ with 70's technology. Those engines also had
| about a 100 rpm powerband, though. So you'd see 50cc
| bikes with as many as 14 gears.
| gene_kreemers wrote:
| Unfortunately you can't turbocharge or supercharge a two-
| stroke. There's a material amount of time during the cycle
| where both intake and exhaust port are open at the same
| time. If you use any type of forced induction it would blow
| the fuel/air mixture straight out the cylinder before it
| could be ignited. You can however use a tuned pipe to cause
| a pressure wave to reflect back up the pipe and compress
| the mixture, but that's usually limited to a pretty narrow
| powerband
| [deleted]
| rsj_hn wrote:
| Ahh, so the special regs only apply to 2 strokes? I
| thought they were based on displacement
| foepys wrote:
| They're also valid for 4 strokes but generally speaking
| 4-strokes have lower torque at high rpm and since it's
| hard to get much power out of 50ccm anyways, they tend to
| be 2-stroke.
| numpad0 wrote:
| I think he's talking inherent technical limitations, not
| regulations. I wonder if it still applies if there was a
| pre-burning occurring in the middle of intake manifolds
| swimfar wrote:
| You can have forced induction with two-strokes if you use
| direct injection. It ends up being pretty efficient
| because you can blow all the exhaust out of the cylinders
| and have clean air for the next cycle. You also don't
| need to add oil to the fuel because you don't use the
| crankcase to pressurize the air/fuel charge. This type of
| engine is really common in construction equipment and
| (older) big trucks, semis, buses, etc. Some were even
| supercharged and turbocharged.
| seryoiupfurds wrote:
| In fact, I believe the supercharger is necessary for them
| to function.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-stroke_diesel_engine
| cmckn wrote:
| 1,500 for a drivers license?? I had no idea. It cost me about
| $30 USD to get my first license in Alabama. Washington state
| does taxation differently so I think it was about $120. You
| learn something new every day!
| ptr wrote:
| If you include driving lessons, the full package can easily
| go for 3-4000 EUR in Sweden.
| cmckn wrote:
| Woah! I guess having a drivers license is more necessary
| in most of the US, so they're more easily obtained?
| That's wild.
| sgt wrote:
| Having driven in both the US and Europe, I think it's
| also worth pointing out that it's easier to drive and
| understand the road system in the US. In Europe they
| occasionally have some bizarre rules and tourists just
| end up going slowly straight through and hoping for the
| best. In the US, pretty much any moron can get on the
| interstate or even drive around Atlanta or a big city
| like that.
| stefan_ wrote:
| "so" as in implies? No, someone made an explicit choice
| to compromise the education in favor of accessibility and
| it has caused tons of issues.
| resonantjacket5 wrote:
| I mean if you don't have a drivers license in usa you
| practically can't buy groceries nor have a job unlike in
| most other countries.
| distances wrote:
| The licenses are absolutely required in the more sparsely
| populated areas in Europe, going without license is only
| possible in major metropolitan areas.
|
| Europe just places a relatively high bar for driving
| skills. You do see the outcome in road safety and much
| more orderly driving behaviour (with the usual caveat
| that Europe is diverse and this applies more to some
| regions than some others yadda yadda).
| angry_octet wrote:
| Omg this is just a ridiculous statement. Germany !=
| Europe.
|
| I've driven in many countries and Italy had more than an
| equal share of near death experiences.
| distances wrote:
| I was hoping my caveat would cover exactly this. The
| parent comments were talking about Germany and Sweden,
| and I can promise they are not the only countries with
| decent driving.
| IkmoIkmo wrote:
| Different ideas about safety mostly. The US has 2x the
| death rate per km driven compared to Sweden.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffi
| c-r...
| golemiprague wrote:
| You can't compare a country the size of the US to Sweden.
| There are too many variations within the US, it is more
| like the whole of Europe and we all know driving in
| Sweden is not like driving in Italy. There are so many
| factors that can contribute, type of population,
| topography, weather, congestion, amount of driving in
| general and many others one could think about. "Ideas
| about safety", if they exist, is only one factor.
| ekianjo wrote:
| The US has much larger cars so this drives fatalities up
| in accidents too.
| jefftk wrote:
| Really? An accident between two large cars is generally
| safer than one between two small cars.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| It may make collision between cars safer, but it makes
| collision with non-cars deadlier for the people outside
| the car.
|
| The general trend for pedestrian and cycling deaths is up
| in the US, because increasingly popular SUVs and
| crossovers strike a person higher on the body, and also
| are more likely to push a person under the car towards
| the wheels or forward where they'll be run over again,
| rather than over the hood.
|
| https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/new-study-suggests-
| todays-s...
| jefftk wrote:
| Source: https://www.iihs.org/topics/vehicle-size-and-
| weight
| [deleted]
| vladvasiliu wrote:
| > It cost me about $30 USD to get my first license in
| Alabama. Washington state does taxation differently so I
| think it was about $120.
|
| What does that actually cover? Just the administrative
| things you do at the DMV or driving school / exams / etc?
|
| Germany is probably like France, which means that the 1500
| covers driving school + exam + actual licence.
|
| You need to have a certain number of driving school hours
| (22 I think?) to be able to sit the practical exam.
| cmckn wrote:
| Driving school wasn't required, though you can take a
| "driver's ed" class in high school to skip the exams at
| the DMV (you take them as part of the class). The exams
| are free (IIRC), you just have to pay to get the license
| when you pass. You only have to pass a written exam to
| get your "permit" (limited license). You need a certain
| amount of hours of driving to get a full license; but
| these aren't really tracked. You just need a guardian (if
| you're under 18) or a license holder to sign an affidavit
| saying you drove the hours. I definitely hadn't actually
| driven the number of required hours when I turned 16 and
| my mom signed off on it.
|
| It varies widely by state, of course; I started driving
| in Alabama when I was 15. I just recently had to pay WA
| to transfer my license from Colorado, I guess that was
| just administrative fees.
| nicoburns wrote:
| > Driving school wasn't required
|
| I think the difference might be in the difficulty of the
| test. Here in the UK driving lessons aren't required, but
| most people wouldn't pass the test without them (and most
| drivers wouldn't pass the test now if they had to sit it
| again).
| seniorivn wrote:
| which basically means those tests are not required to be
| sufficient at safe driving, since most drivers drive
| safely(enough) without being able to pass those tests.
|
| Additionally, i would love to compare car accidents stats
| for countries with strict rules/very liberal rules and no
| rules at all(like most third world countries with high
| level of corruption)
| ctdonath wrote:
| AFAIK, a German drivers' license requires 5 substantial
| tests (4 seasons plus bad weather) ... while one in USA
| is little more than 10 minutes of "can you not crash into
| things at low speed".
| Gene_Parmesan wrote:
| When I sat for mine going on two decades ago, by far the
| scariest part was parallel parking. Which really says
| something - if you base it off of what is emphasized on
| the test, apparently we care more about "are you going to
| ding someone's car when parking" than "can you handle a
| motor vehicle at speed in dangerous conditions."
| crooked-v wrote:
| In the US, it's extremely common for driving lessons to
| be provided by secondary schools.
|
| As somebody who missed out on that, I ended up paying
| around $400 as an adult for 6 hours of private lessons
| (yes, that was it), plus a $60 fee for the driver's
| license and a $9 fee for the driving test.
| throwawayboise wrote:
| Is it? Where I went to High School they stopped offering
| drivers education in the 1980s, for budget reasons.
| Everyone now takes private drivers training courses, or
| just learns from their parents.
| the_only_law wrote:
| > As somebody who missed out on that, I ended up paying
| around $400 as an adult for 6 hours of private lessons
| (yes, that was it), plus a $60 fee for the driver's
| license and a $9 fee for the driving test.
|
| Never happened for me either. A few years ago I payed a
| similar amount for a handful of very short courses that
| didn't leave me confident enough to take the test. The
| consequences are big degradation of QoL. Now looking at
| probably 1 or 2 grand for significantly longer courses
| which I'm not even sure will be enough, along with the
| fact that these sort of places are not compatible with a
| working adults schedule.
| krrrh wrote:
| Mandatory driving school and a much harder exam.
|
| When I lived there I was able to swap my home country
| drivers license for a German one and bypass the whole
| system. I will say that German's drive very well, and the
| training and gatekeeping go a long way to explaining how
| the Autobahn's unlimited speed limits function so well.
| 7_my_mind wrote:
| if hypothetically one could ban cars from cities and only allow
| such low powered transport, it would be quite an efficient safe
| and clean form of transport
| Leherenn wrote:
| I don't know, I'm not sure they are really solving something.
| Local residents can probably rely on public
| transports/walking/cycling to move within the city. People
| from outside probably need a car to reach the city itself,
| but if you can't use those low powered cars on high speed
| roads then there's no point in having one. Better a "full"
| car that gets you to a public transports node on the edge of
| the city and then you switch.
| willvarfar wrote:
| "Moped cars" are a big thing in Sweden too, as 15yos can drive
| them just like they can drive a scooter. They are typically
| small diesels and currently cost about EUR16k+ new, though, so
| are in an entirely different price class (if not tech class).
|
| There are some cheaper and some electric alternatives starting
| to arrive on the market. Right now, the electric alternatives
| don't have much range.
| TLightful wrote:
| There are some decent $5-$10k small EV's in China that will mop
| up customers who can't reach Tesla levels of affordability.
|
| And with the advent of Hyundai Ioniq 5 and other cars coming on
| stream in the premium space, Tesla can suck a fat one.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| 13kW is way beyond scooter territory and more like entry level
| motorcycle territory.
|
| It's a good alternative to a smart car, it has uses cases much
| beyond that of a scooter by nature of having, say, a roof.
| Retric wrote:
| 13kW or 17.4 hp is anemic for a motorcycle and your moving a
| larger vehicle. It's a golf cart which often use 12HP engines
| that's slightly boosted to handle a windshield.
| simfree wrote:
| The driving experience of an ICE engine versus an electric
| motor of the same horsepower is not similar. They have much
| different acceleration curves and driving experiences.
| cco wrote:
| I will thank you kindly to not speak about the Honda Rebel
| that I owned like that! She could hit 81 while going
| slightly downhill if you were in a tuck.
|
| I believe from the factory the Rebel has like 15 or 16 hp,
| mine that was 12 years old at the time must have had one or
| two less, and it was exciting to ride around town.
|
| I'll grant that 17 hp in a car would not be "exciting", but
| I bet from 0-30mph which is where this car would live would
| feel plenty zippy.
| Retric wrote:
| The lowest HP Honda Rebel right now the 300 goes for 4.5k
| and even that has 27HP new from factory. Back in 1985,
| the Rebel 250 started at 16.1 HP but that's been
| discounted for a while.
|
| IMO, anything that can't maintain highway speed up a hill
| is anemic by modern standards. I get that HP has become a
| largely meaningless metric for daily driving, but that
| seems like a useful baseline.
| sudosysgen wrote:
| 17hp is reasonable for a small motorcycle. You only need
| more power if you are going on highways, and this vehicle
| doesn't. For comparison, it's about twice as much as the
| Honda Grom, which is certainly beyond a scooter.
|
| It's as much power as a Honda Rebel 250, a CBF250, an
| MT125, a Yamaha Vixion, an ST250, etc..., and those are gas
| engines that will generally only provide like 50-70% of
| their power.
|
| Electric golf carts generally use 3-5hp engines. That's
| because for small engines, the electric advantage of always
| delivering the same amount of power is a huge deal.
|
| 18hp was enough for many cars. It is fine for city driving.
| It goes up to 100km/h, it's fine.
|
| Also, the peak power of the motor is actually 20kW, 13kW is
| the sustained power, which again is more than enough for
| city driving.
| sgt wrote:
| It's certainly a new way of thinking about minimum viable
| cars. Nowadays you sort of expect 200hp from a normal
| family car, most often closer to 300hp. My car has a 4L
| that produces 286hp, and it's guzzling fuel. Most of the
| time is spent in towns and cities going slowly. I could
| easily move to electric, but sometimes I also need range
| and cruising speeds of 70-90 mph.
| sitkack wrote:
| You are arguing past each other, hp has little bearing on
| the performance of a vehicle in the regimes we are
| talking about. Torque is what should be measured for in
| town performance and that is relative to weight. It only
| takes 10-30hp to maintain a vehicle at highway speeds.
| sgt wrote:
| That's true. And how much hp/torque did the Model T have?
| Probably not much, and I am sure it could do a
| respectable 30 mph.
| Retric wrote:
| The Model T had 20 hp and did 45mph on level ground.
| beaunative wrote:
| That shell is all most might need, to go shopping or run any
| errand in the city. It's much safer than a scooter and carries
| much more. Obviously you probably shouldn't be driving it in
| the highway, but how often does that happen?
| franklampard wrote:
| And bad whether and stuff. Would you ride a scooter in rainy
| days or in this?
| betwixthewires wrote:
| Lol watching the video and the guy says "there isn't even a
| park! You get reverse, neutral and drive, that's it! Your park
| is the hand brake! I didn't even know that was possible!"
| Someone who's never even seen a standard transmission car has
| no business reviewing cars.
| culopatin wrote:
| It's fine if they haven't driven one, but at least read a
| little.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| Of course manual gearboxes have park. It's known as 1 or R
| depending on which way you're facing... ;)
| spullara wrote:
| For sure, can't risk handbrake failure.
| jozvolskyef wrote:
| It is not wise to rely on handbrakes. Firstly handbrakes
| aren't designed to hold any significant load. Just search
| for an image of a handbrake cable. It is good enough most
| of the time, but it will bite you once you have a fully
| loaded car at a steep slope. Secondly it is a good habit
| to never leave the car on neutral unless you have a good
| reason because this habit will save you in the event of
| forgetting to pull the handbrake.
| ben_w wrote:
| Not something I was taught to do for my UK license in '09,
| IIRC.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| It's one of those things I picked up from when older
| people taught me how to drive. Presumably from when hand
| brakes were more likely to fail than on modern cars.
| Maybe if someone crashes into the car while it's parked.
|
| Either way I still do it. And turn my wheels towards/away
| from the kerb on a hill as appropriate. Probably useless
| but if you have a fail-safe, may as well apply it.
| jozvolskyef wrote:
| Forgetting the handbrake is a common cause of minor
| accidents. Half the automotive 'fail' videos on the
| internet are people forgetting the handbrake. The habit
| of never leaving the engine on neutral greatly reduces
| the probability of this kind of an accident.
| somethingwitty1 wrote:
| And sometimes even non-minor. Wasn't Anton Yelchin (the
| Star Trek actor) killed when he got out of his car to
| open his security gate and was crushed?
| quintushoratius wrote:
| It depends on the car, really. My 2000 Saab required you to
| shift to reverse in order to remove the key, regardless of
| the incline.
| BossingAround wrote:
| Interesting. The lack of security is probably why I don't see
| them in the EU (would be surprised if they were legal to sell
| as cars).
|
| That said, I personally don't own a car for ethical reasons,
| and I'd love this small one for shopping or just small trips on
| the weekends.
| christkv wrote:
| The French have this car https://youtu.be/uUEKtOGmpVI
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| It would be perfect for us now just running the usual
| errands as since WFH we rarely travel outside our city
| borders on the national highways.
| TheDong wrote:
| I'm curious to hear about the ethical reasons you have for
| avoiding car ownership. What are they?
| foepys wrote:
| A typical car is standing around 90% of the day, if not
| more. It's a waste of space that could be used for trees,
| walkways, cycle lanes, etc. If we pooled our resources
| together and made renting cars easy and accessible, we'd
| have more space in cities for the people living there.
| wolfretcrap wrote:
| I often wonder without having a pickup truck and a car,
| how do Europeans haul heavy hardware stuff like MDF
| boards, 3x4 wood plank, steel pipes to their place.
|
| When I was in US I drove to nearest big box store, loaded
| my pickup and drove to my place. Easy, unfortunately no
| other country I've found such convenience and this makes
| me wanna go back to US.
| u678u wrote:
| > how do Europeans haul heavy hardware stuff like MDF
| boards, 3x4 wood plank, steel pipes to their place.
|
| You do this like once every 10 years? I wouldn't choose a
| car on this.
| ivanche wrote:
| Depending on the country, but some hardware stores offer
| transport or you can rent a van for $30 or so.
|
| OTOH, in 41 years I had exactly 0 times needed large MDF
| boards or wood planks or steel pipes...
| sgt wrote:
| Clock is ticking, buddy. Best order some MDF boards
| tonight.
| jfk13 wrote:
| Most things I need from the hardware/DIY store, I can
| bring home in my car. With the seats folded down, 8-foot
| lengths of timber aren't much of a problem.
|
| For the rare occasions when that wouldn't be feasible,
| they'll deliver for a moderate charge. It would make no
| sense to pay all the costs of keeping an extra vehicle
| (or a much larger one than I generally need) just to
| avoid a couple of deliveries per year.
| HarryHirsch wrote:
| Station wagons are popular, as are hatchback cars where
| you can fold down the rear seat. That will fit a fridge
| or bicycle. If you really need the space you just rent a
| van for the day. Gas is expensive on the old continent,
| so people really do not like to drive huge cars.
| Theodores wrote:
| Pickups trucks are an American phenomenon due to the
| Chicken Tax and how that sector of manufacturing is
| protected. European and Japanese manufacturers that
| trounce the big three in every other sector are forbidden
| to compete fairly in the land of the free when it comes
| to these bizarre pickup trucks that make little sense in
| normal countries.
|
| In the UK we have the Ford Transit van and people that
| can do things for you. You get stuff delivered or
| collected. The guy with the Transit van gets a high level
| of utilisation out of it. People can therefore have
| normal cars and SUVs. Or a bicycle.
|
| We don't have those man size trucks with dual tyres in
| the UK and certainly not at US prices. You can buy Ranger
| and Hilux size trucks and those are a bit too large for
| UK roads. In the US these would be toys, not man size at
| all.
|
| In the UK you can play a game watching cars and counting
| how many have more than one person in them. In the US you
| can count how many trucks are hauling stuff. They ain't.
| handelaar wrote:
| People who need it for work have _vans_ , which are an
| amazing invention with rooves and doors and which can
| carry pallets. Some have a trailer instead.
|
| People who need it barely once or twice a year for home
| take an estate car, rent one for a taxi, borrow a trailer
| off a friend, or get the store to deliver - because
| owning your own van or pickup just for that reason would
| be considered _completely insane_.
| vidarh wrote:
| Why would I ever haul anything to my place? It's far
| easier to have it delivered.
|
| A couple of years ago I did maintenance to my garden. I
| ordered planks and bags of cement from Amazon for next
| day delivery because I couldn't even be bothered to order
| from a specialist store.
|
| But if I _wanted to_ , there's a store with bulk
| construction supplies literally at the bottom of my road,
| and a more retail oriented one 20 minutes away.
|
| But I don't even have a drivers license. Never felt worth
| the time.
| rapsey wrote:
| The thing is that during those 10% most or at least a lot
| of them are on the road.
| foepys wrote:
| Commuting nowadays is broken. People commuting by car are
| hauling around 4 or more empty seats at 30 km/h along a
| highway full of other people doing the same, going into
| the same cities often into the same office districs. We
| could get rid of a lot of cars if we didn't drive around
| 4 empty seats and filled just one.
|
| Or if we lived closer to where we worked but that's seems
| like a more complex problem.
| imtringued wrote:
| > Commuting nowadays is broken. People commuting by car
| are hauling around 4 or more empty seats at 30 km/h along
| a highway full of other people doing the same, going into
| the same cities often into the same office districs. We
| could get rid of a lot of cars if we didn't drive around
| 4 empty seats and filled just one.
|
| Unfortunately, highways require a certain minimum vehicle
| size. The best you could possibly do is have a short
| coupe with 2 seats. It wouldn't significantly influence
| the size of the vehicle but waste more resources for the
| few times where you need a 3-4 person vehicle. The
| savings to be had are way too slim. However, driving a
| pick up truck for your commute is absolutely a waste of
| resources because there are smaller and more aerodynamic
| cars that are commute worthy.
|
| >Or if we lived closer to where we worked but that's
| seems like a more complex problem.
|
| It's the only solution. Building a von Neuman
| architecture style city is absolutely stupid for society
| since the world is inherently parallel. There is no
| logical reason to have massive central work place
| districts. Each office building is a cpu core and each
| residential building is a memory chip in its own right.
| We don't need to put all the cpu cores next to each other
| and put the memory somewhere else. A distributed
| development pattern is significantly more efficient since
| data and computation are next to each other.
| ctdonath wrote:
| _A typical car is standing around 90% of the day, if not
| more. It 's a waste of space_
|
| [looks at personally-owned half-acre of forest] [looks at
| car]
|
| I own a car so I CAN own & preserve substantial
| undeveloped natural land. You get more city space by me
| not being there at all.
| knuthsat wrote:
| Environmental issues. Same reasons I guess why Bitcoin is
| disliked. But most Bitcoin dislikers still drive a car, are
| careless with heating and cooling and eat steak at least
| once a day.
| imtringued wrote:
| That energy could have been used to produce more steaks,
| cars and heating. It might be careless but at least there
| is a logical reason for why these activities are highly
| energy intensive. Bitcoin is energy intensive for a fixed
| gain. It's like a war where people are fighting for a
| farm plot. The amount of food you can farm from that plot
| doesn't change just because you had a bigger war. Bitcoin
| will only process 7 transactions per second and every
| holder of Bitcoin is against changing that.
| knuthsat wrote:
| A nice comparison. So for Bitcoin we acknowledge the
| fixed gain but for our planet the gain is limitless,
| steaks, cars, and heating.
| megablast wrote:
| Ha. Are you kidding?
|
| A million people are killed directly every year by cars.
| Many more are seriously injured and disabled. Another
| million indirectly due to air pollution. They are also the
| number one cause of micro plastics around waterways.
| Billions are spent on hospitals, doctors, nurses,
| ambulances, police to support all this death.
|
| Much more is spent covering our countryside on roads, that
| kill millions of animals every year.
|
| And encouraging urban sprawl means cities take up more
| space, destroying wild life habitat.
|
| This is just some of the awful things cars have bought to
| our world, not mentioned are wars, major spills, toppled
| governments, bribery, etc...
| azinman2 wrote:
| Yet you seem to own a computer and presumably are ok with
| that?
| imtringued wrote:
| He also has the audacity to exist, how dare he live!
| Let's throw stones at him for consuming any form of
| resource!, no matter how insignificant!
| teddyh wrote:
| "Yet you participate in society! Curious."
|
| -- Mister Gotcha (https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/)
| tshaddox wrote:
| Pretty appropriate response to "cars are unethical" as
| well. For a huge number of people, especially in the
| United States, not having a car makes it essentially
| impossible to have a job.
| mpol wrote:
| "cars are unethical"
|
| That was not what he said. He was quite clear in making a
| personal decision. There was no force on anyone to make
| that same decision. That you are reading that into it
| might say more about the way you think :)
| tshaddox wrote:
| On the topic of reading too much into things, note that I
| didn't say anything about force or it not being a
| personal decision either.
| Jonnax wrote:
| If someone feels like making what they see as a positive
| impact by making a lifestyle choice.
|
| What's the point in saying: "But you do some unrelated
| thing???"
|
| Is the argument that there's no point in making a small
| difference, it's only worth it if you're 100%
| ideologically pure?
|
| Because I don't see where road deaths and microplastics
| in local rivers come into owning a computer.
| azinman2 wrote:
| Computers themselves are a hodgepodge of resources
| extracted often horrendously from all over the world.
| Child labor for cobalt, various other rare earth products
| violently extracted with extreme acids scalding lands and
| polluting water sources, consuming vast quantities of oil
| to ship all these raw materials to then be assembled in
| massive factories with poorly paid workers, using
| terrible chemicals that can poison the workers and harm
| their babies...
|
| The reality is almost all of modern technology,
| materials, tools, and life have huge externalities. Us
| being alive consuming resources and emitting green house
| gases further pushes us towards terrible climate changes,
| while taking away space from nature before us.
|
| It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car
| ownership but maintain the benefits of all other
| externalities. Perhaps the OP also has many other resists
| to modern life under ethical guise. The computer is the
| one known exception here.
| Jonnax wrote:
| It isn't a gotcha to say they own a computer.
|
| Making a choice not to buy a car makes a measurable
| impact.
|
| It's not a gotcha to say that they partake in society.
|
| By your logic, it'd be arbitrary to safely dispose of
| motor oil instead of conveniently dumping it into the
| local park's pond.
| bildung wrote:
| _> It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car
| ownership but maintain the benefits of all other
| externalities._
|
| It stops feeling like that once you replace assumptions
| with numbers.
| imtringued wrote:
| >It just feels very arbitrary to stop at personal car
| ownership but maintain the benefits of all other
| externalities.
|
| Yes, it's incredibly arbitrary because cars don't suffer
| from low density development patterns. They don't cause
| pollution. They also don't cost a significant amount of
| money and this also doesn't force less well off people to
| get expensive leases because everyone buys low end cars.
| The tax burden of suburbia is absolutely insignificant.
| The fact that you have more roads per resident decreases
| the tax burden significantly. Their only fatal flaw is
| that new developments aren't funded by the federal
| government and private developers. Thanks to cars and
| suburbia municipalities are swimming in cash and never
| have to worry about their finances.
|
| We should ban bicycles and pedestrian paths. Everyone
| should drive, even children. This is the future.
| brabel wrote:
| Also, making a new car, even an electric one, takes a
| huge amount of resources.
|
| "Producing a medium-sized new car costing PS24,000 may
| generate more than 17 tonnes of CO2e - almost as much as
| three years' worth of gas and electricity in the typical
| UK home."[0]
|
| [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/green-living-
| blog/20...
| TheSpiceIsLife wrote:
| Electric cars are even worse: they typically don't
| achieve carbon parity with same-class ICE until about
| 70,000km.
|
| This was discussed recently here on HN, I'll try to find
| the conversation.
|
| Edit: here's the conversation, with link to source:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24716921
|
| It's about 50,000 to 112,00km depending on the source of
| electricity used to charge the electric car.
| aoeusnth1 wrote:
| Can you explain what makes you say that figure is worse?
| SECProto wrote:
| You say "even worse", I say "much better". Reaching
| carbon parity means any car driven more than that creates
| less carbon emissions. People I know run their cars until
| 300,000km and our power is >90% nuclear and hydro.
| house9-2 wrote:
| This is a pretty good article on ICE vs EV
|
| https://www.motorbiscuit.com/are-electric-cars-worse-for-
| the...
|
| > ... compared to most gasoline-powered cars, an electric
| car should become carbon neutral in less than 3 years of
| driving.
| midasuni wrote:
| Us average car mileage for new cars is on the order of
| 15-20,000 a year. So 3 years would be 80,000km which
| checks out.
| tomp wrote:
| There are no ethical reasons. Everyone who says this is
| just virtue signalling, by outsourcing the "car" to others
| (delivery drivers, grocery stores, police, hospitals, ...).
|
| Rejecting the car for ethical reasons should be accompanied
| by rejecting most of the modern society & infrastructure as
| well.
| swimfar wrote:
| How does not owning a car imply outsourcing those things?
| That's only true if you hiring a cab everywhere you go
| and order all your groceries to be delivered. If I bike
| everywhere I go, including the grocery store I'm not
| outsourcing cars. All the miles I would normally put on
| my car I put on my bike, or public transportation.
| tomp wrote:
| The grocery store uses cars to transport goods from
| farmer to the store. The whole supply chain uses cars
| (petrol, resources, poisoning air, causing accidents,
| ...), you're outsourcing to them.
| betwixthewires wrote:
| You know, if you think about it for 5 minutes, your point
| makes absolutely no sense at all.
|
| "Outsourcing" would be if his decision not to drive a car
| required him to pay people to drive cars on his behalf.
| That's the definition of the word "outsourcing". But
| you're talking about transportation _that occurs whether
| he drives a car or not._ The groceries _you_ get at the
| store are driven there also. Him choosing not to drive a
| car literally has 0 impact on the transportation
| infrastructure of the supply chain. That is not
| outsourcing.
| freeflight wrote:
| The grocery store uses trucks to transport goods because
| doing it by bicycle/foot simply does not scale.
|
| But just because that part of the logistic chain involves
| ICE vehicles does not mean that _every_ part _has_ to
| involve ICE vehicles nor does it mean that people not
| using a car to do their shopping are "outsourcing"
| anything: The large-scale logistics happen regardless of
| how people get to the grocer, people getting there by
| foot/bicycle/public transport have literally zero
| influence on that end of the logistics.
| xiphias2 wrote:
| We'll see after self driving is working and scaling. Tesla's plan
| is to have less car owners and more service users.
| Daho0n wrote:
| Tesla's plan is also to have self driving cars, but they don't
| (and won't have for years to come).
| xiphias2 wrote:
| Yes, that's the most likely way to scale up electric car use.
| It would take 30 more years to get rid of gas cars.
|
| Why do you think Tesla won't have self driving cars in the
| next 5 years?
| xirbeosbwo1234 wrote:
| Who cares? Tesla's dead in the water anyway. How does it compete
| with the real players?
| finikytou wrote:
| renault dacia is about to go out in europe. it is a 12kEur (after
| tax rebate) car. Id say its a real huge market tesla can't reach.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VHstY5pKhw&ab_channel=YOUCA...
| sgt wrote:
| That's incredibly good value. Although I do like big cars and
| trucks, it would make sense to have one of those puppies in the
| garage too, for shopping and short errands.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| There was a decent discussion on these a few weeks ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26232760
|
| And a few months before that:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24601479
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.is/KsHYA
| 02020202 wrote:
| Amsterdam https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9ly7JjqEb0
| partingshots wrote:
| $4k death traps more like. There's no way you would ever get
| those approved in the US for sale.
| montzark wrote:
| Death traps because rest of the vehicles are way heavier and
| more dangerous (also to pedestrians).
|
| If all cars were like that it would be fine.
| Lucasoato wrote:
| No, they would still be death traps since cars may also hit
| other hard obstacles like walls and rocks.
| jessaustin wrote:
| They're going slower so it will be ok.
| icedistilled wrote:
| 20mph to a wall is going to leave a mark without crumple
| zones
| saiya-jin wrote:
| If they would be used for city speeds only, the risks aren't
| much bigger compared to scooters, in contrary.
|
| But I have 0 doubt that being priced so aggressively, US and
| Europe would slap such a huge tariff to protect local markets,
| they would be very uncompetitive.
| aww_dang wrote:
| It wouldn't be suitable for US highways. It would make sense
| if regulators would allow another class of vehicle for city
| cars.
| kube-system wrote:
| The price likely wouldn't be very competitive if the
| manufacturer adds all of the design features required to sell
| that vehicle in the US.
| rtx wrote:
| Better than scooters they are supposed to replace.
| f6v wrote:
| I wonder what's worse: being squashed inside this car or just
| become airborne when scooter hits something. At least you're
| required to wear a helmet when on a scooter. But as someone
| said here, if we only had those cars on the road(and a 30
| km/h speed limit), it'd be much safer.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Seatbelts saved a bunch of lives by preventing occupants
| from getting flung out the car, so I'd imagine that being
| in the car is safer.
|
| Current road death trends in the US indicate that people
| inside cars are dying less, but people _outside_ of them
| are dying more, notably cyclists and pedestrians.
| tener wrote:
| And this car has just one seatbelt (for the driver). The
| other passengers can go take a flight .
| kube-system wrote:
| The US auto market requires a lot of specific safety features
| even compared to other developed countries.
|
| There are plenty of new cars from leading global auto
| manufacturers that aren't legal for sale in the US.
| kolinko wrote:
| Some of the regulations are pretty weird though - the mirrors
| in US cars are far worse, and so are lights.
| kube-system wrote:
| For sure. Red rear turn signals and not requiring better
| headlight glare mitigation come to mind.. and are some of
| my pet peeves.
|
| But when it comes to expensive systems like crash
| structures, active and passive safety systems, the US
| requires a lot.
| Daho0n wrote:
| EuroNCAP ratings are harsher, so not really. It's mostly
| that the US system is based on SUVs and other behemoths.
| Look at the new small Toyota Yaris. That's what is
| required to get a good rating these days. Most newish
| SUVs doesn't even have the same amount of safety systems
| (like airbags between driver and front passenger seat).
| kube-system wrote:
| I was speaking solely about regulatory requirements (i.e
| FMVSS) for selling a vehicle, not the NCAP programs. It
| is generally legal to sell vehicles with bad NCAP scores.
| For instance: the 2018 Fiat Panda met EU regulations to
| be sold but scored 0 stars on EuroNCAP.
| [deleted]
| riffraff wrote:
| I think it's not that the US is odd as much as each market is
| odd in a different way.
|
| I remember one of the points of the failed trans-atlantic
| trade treaty was about handling where the stop lights should
| be on cars, because "safety" regulations differ.
| kube-system wrote:
| Yes, the EU has high standards and differs from the US
| mainly on minor details.
|
| Standards (or lack thereof) in much of
| Asia/Africa/S.America are on a whole different planet.
|
| I guess my point is, not being approved for sale in the US
| doesn't mean the car is shockingly different than many
| other cars in the rest of the world. You can find unsafe
| cars that would be illegal to sell in the US that say
| "Nissan" or "VW" on them just over the border in Mexico.
|
| Every manufacturer builds cars to meet the specific
| requirements and needs for a market. In many countries, the
| requirements are low and the #1 priority is cheap.
| anti-shill wrote:
| back in the 1980s americans were able to buy cars cheaper
| because the manufacturers were not required to install all the
| added safety features that we have today...back then the gas
| mileage was better too because the cars were lighter...then
| some corporate lobbies got congress to force manufacturers to
| add safety features...the prices of cars went up...the weight
| of cars went up, and the gas mileage went down...
|
| what corporate lobby did that? Oil companies, perhaps....and as
| a result americans are forced to spend more on cars and more on
| gas than citizens of free nations...
|
| some might say we are lucky to have the government looking out
| for us....but I would not say that...
| [deleted]
| throwaway4good wrote:
| China's strategic planning around electric cars is really a thing
| of beauty.
|
| Imagine a massive growing middle class buying gas-powered foreign
| produced cars instead. What would that do the Chinese economy and
| security with all oil imported?
|
| The strategy of welcoming of firms such as Tesla builds up a huge
| ecosystem of suppliers creating possibilities for China's own car
| companies. Whether they target a highend international market
| such as with the Volvo Polestar or the small electric car market.
|
| The small car market basically doesn't exist in the west. We
| don't find these cars safe or desireble enough. But safety and
| desirability of this category of cars will improve rapidly over
| time and ultimately they will become attractive enough to be sold
| in the west.
| cavisne wrote:
| These small cars are illegal in big cities in China (just not
| enforced) so it's not strategic
| silvestrov wrote:
| Fixed: The small car market basically doesn't exist _in the
| USA_.
|
| There are a lot of small cars in European big cities as it is
| difficult to find parking space for an "american sized" car.
|
| The sedans which Americans thinks of as "small car", we think
| of "too big car for the city".
| dragonelite wrote:
| For a small road trip to Chicago my family member rent a 8
| person fan a huge car and off course I offered to be the
| driver.
|
| Once we arrived in Chicago I kind of started to sweat because
| I'm used to European city parking spots. How many times will
| have to retry to park this huge car, but to my surprise the
| parking spaces are also huge.
| tibbydudeza wrote:
| Yep they don't sell the VW Polo (my daily driver) in the US.
| It seem compact hatchbacks/cars (a.k.a B segment) has no
| market.
| throwaway4good wrote:
| Yes, agreed.
|
| The US has a strange obsession with massive cars.
|
| However it was not the european style small cars I ment when
| I referred to small cars but rather the 4000 USD electric
| cars, the article is refering to. Those you do not see in
| Europe at present.
|
| In fact, the only Chinese EVs I have seen are the MG ZS EV
| and Volvo Polestar - both big cars.
|
| The small electrics are things like the VW Up electric and
| the Fiat 500 electric, both European.
| kop316 wrote:
| American here: to offer a counter perspective, I am not at
| all opposed to a small car. However the last time I went
| shopping and looked at a smaller car, they were more
| expensive and more gas hungry then the car I ended up
| getting. (This was ~8 years ago? Maybe it has changed since
| then). I was actually surprised to see that.
| TLightful wrote:
| Citation or that's bullsh!t.
|
| If the car you ended up getting was large, as implied,
| I'd be interested in looking at how sh!te the small car
| must have been.
| mikewarot wrote:
| >The US has a strange obsession with massive cars.
|
| It's not strange... it's survival (plus federal regulations
| about crash safety, bumper height) require the size
| vehicles I'm used to here. (The SUV thing is just crazy,
| though)
|
| It is not unusual in the USA on a road trip (vacation) to
| drive 1000 km/day (or more) at 120+ kph.
|
| How is something smaller than a 1999 Honda Civic (1100kg)
| going to safely share the road with 40000 kg Tractor-
| Trailer rigs?
|
| Here's the smallest car I ever owned... it was silver, with
| a hatchback... I loved that car, and miss it. https://en.wi
| kipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_(sixth_generation)
| UncleMeat wrote:
| If you are comparing to Tractor Trailers, why would car
| size matter? Even a really chunky SUV won't do anything
| against a sixteen wheeler.
| mikewarot wrote:
| If you hit a Semi Trailer from behind, it would matter...
| a small vehicle might go UNDER the trailer, decapitating
| the occupants.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| There are plenty of trucks in Europe. There's even a
| whole computer game series based around it.[0] Lots of
| Europeans go on driving holidays. They even take caravans
| ("travel trailers"). Caravans are so common that they're
| a running joke on popular car shows like Top Gear.[1]
|
| It is true that generally people don't tend to drive as
| long distances in Europe as they do in the US, but it's
| not unheard of to drive 1000km on holiday. It's not as if
| everyone in Europe spends their lives pootling around
| cobble-stoned towns in Fiat 500s with a crusty baguette
| sticking out the window. There are large highways and
| plenty of heavy traffic.
|
| I think the difference is that people in Europe tend not
| use their oversized vehicles as daily drivers. Many
| people don't even own a large car at all, preferring to
| rent or borrow one for specifically when they do go on
| holiday. Driving a large car seems like less of a status
| symbol in Europe. I don't buy that it's a safety thing
| for Americans, when most Americans are just driving their
| SUVs to the shops or to work every day.
|
| [0] https://eurotrucksimulator2.com/
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNTnrpL1Uw0
| mikewarot wrote:
| Ok, what do you mean by _large car_? In the US, a car is
| specifically NOT an SUV, nor a Truck.
|
| In my mind, that conjures up a 1972 Buick Electra Station
| Wagon. They are 2320 Kg, more than 2 of the 1999 Honda
| Civic.
|
| https://www.automobile-catalog.com/make/buick/full-
| size_buic...
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I understand the term "car" to mean pretty much any
| personal/family vehicle with an engine and four wheels. I
| don't think that's an unusual understanding of the word.
| The (American) Car and Driver magazine features stories
| on SUVs and pickup trucks too. Most "car" dealerships in
| the US sell all of these vehicle types.
| mikewarot wrote:
| This misunderstanding is because _I 'm old_ and when I
| grew up there were cars, pickup trucks, and Trucks. The
| language has mutated and I didn't notice.
|
| SUVs in the US are out of hand, I totally agree with
| that. I thought you were saying that our Sedans are huge.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I'm also old (ish), and I do admit that the "American
| cars are bigger" argument has gotten less convincing as
| time has gone on. Even if we just look at cars, it seems
| the small/compact end has been getting larger, in Europe
| as well[0].
|
| It would be interesting to see if the move toward larger
| cars in general has been offset by the increase of "sub-
| car" vehicles like electric tuk-tuks, e-bikes and so on.
|
| [0] https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-
| news/features/investigation-wh...
| ghaff wrote:
| Less commonly with a pickup truck but plenty of people
| will refer to their SUV, especially if it's a crossover
| as most are these days, as their "car." I suppose a large
| car, in the strict sense of the word, these days would be
| something like a Lincoln Town Car.
| benlumen wrote:
| Don't ever change the massive car obsession.
|
| To Europeans used to small, cramped spaces - the great open
| roads and huge comfy cars of America are much appreciated.
|
| I actively avoid driving in the UK. I adore driving in the
| US.
|
| edit: Downvoting an outside perspective, how very Reddit!
| billfruit wrote:
| And why is that. Small cars should be as practical in the USA
| as in rest of the world, and it seems it is only the
| mentality of the American consumer that seems to avoid them,
| perhaps?
| gvd wrote:
| A small car would disappear in the Bay area pot holes
| unfortunately
| ryan93 wrote:
| It would be scary to drive european sized small cars on
| back roads with big SUVs and trucks whizzing by.
| dheera wrote:
| I live in the USA (California) and it's almost impossible
| to get anywhere without getting onto a highway.
|
| The only local roads are littered with stop signs or red
| lights at every goddamn intersection and then some speed
| bumps. It's either the highway or the obstacle course.
|
| I do have a electric scooter (max 40 km/h, so can only
| stick to local roads) which I use for <5km trips and and I
| can definitely say those stop signs cut my battery range by
| a factor of 2 or 3.
| nicoburns wrote:
| There's a lot more space in the US. Roads are bigger.
| Parking spaces are more numerous, etc. Small cars are
| practical in the US, but big cars are not practical in
| Europe.
| nowherebeen wrote:
| Americans have this weird fascination of bigger is better
| mentality to the point that practicality goes out the
| window. The hummer is a prime example: burns a ton of
| gasoline with little benefit to the owner or others.
| an_opabinia wrote:
| Bigger cars are almost always safer, which isn't a weird
| fascination at all.
| TLightful wrote:
| But it is a dumb fascination when the logical conclusion
| is everyone riding around in tanks.
| Etheryte wrote:
| This used to be true back in the 80s and such, but with
| modern safety standards, you have to take extreme ends of
| big and small to get anywhere close to a statistically
| significant difference. How you drive, what kind of
| airbags your car has, what the general traffic culture is
| in your country etc are all considerably more important
| factors than your car size. To put it another way, you're
| way more likely to walk away from a crash in a modern
| small car than in an older large car. For all intents and
| purposes, size being safety is an urban myth today.
| CincinnatiMan wrote:
| Are you sure? In a Consumer Reports article [0] from
| 2013, they mention in head-on crashes involving a car and
| SUV, the car driver was 7.6 times more likely to die than
| the SUV driver.
|
| So in a world where there are SUVs driving around, buying
| an SUV for yourself instead of a car is a safer move.
|
| Just think about getting t-boned in an intersection.
| Would you rather be in a light, low vehicle or in a
| heavy, tall vehicle? I'd pick the latter, especially if
| the vehicle t-boning me is tall and its bumper at the
| height of my head if I were in a small car.
|
| [0]:
| https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/05/suvs-
| are-sa...
| freeflight wrote:
| _> So in a world where there are SUVs driving around,
| buying an SUV for yourself instead of a car is a safer
| move._
|
| That sounds like the same kind of circular reasoning
| that's often cited to oppose any gun regulation: "When
| everybody has a gun, you also need a gun to stay safe!".
| NickNameNick wrote:
| Thats because the SUV is too big, not because the car is
| too small.
|
| If you lived somewhere where all the cars were small,
| both vehicles would be better off, because there would be
| much less energy in the collision.
|
| SUV's aren't safer, they're more dangerous to other
| people. and that shouldn't be OK.
| babesh wrote:
| Low gas prices in the US.
|
| Small cars became very popular in the late 70's and early
| 80's in the US due to gas shortages. They gradually died
| out as gas prices came back down.
|
| Go look at car sizes in the 1950's and 1960's in the US.
| Compare that to car sizes in Europe as it recovered from
| WW2. Think Cadillac boat like cars vs the Mini.
|
| Also, cars are essential transportation in parts of the US
| and raising gas prices would/have result(ed) in a lot of
| protesting. In fact, high gas prices would be seen as
| regressive.
| sitkack wrote:
| We have more space, so US auto manufacturers used the space
| differential to change the dynamics of the market. Small
| cars have been removed from the situation by the SUV Wars.
| They were able to shift the Overton Window so they are no
| longer a valid answer.
|
| Volkswagen and the Japanese auto companies filled this role
| in the 60s, 70s and 80s. In the 90s foreign vehicles
| started on the same obesity trajectory, 2nd born generation
| regresses to the mean.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Oh interesting, I was just googling about it to see if I can make
| a 3D model of it, just for novelty.
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