[HN Gopher] Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooki...
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Snobbery Helped Take the Spice Out of European Cooking (2015)
Author : Tomte
Score : 82 points
Date : 2021-03-11 06:57 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.npr.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.npr.org)
| maury91 wrote:
| In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad
| ingredients".
|
| It means that if you use a lot of spices ( we _usually_ use only
| black pepper and salt ), you are going to cover the taste of the
| ingredients you are using, we believe that you need to use good
| ingredients to have flavourful recipes, if an ingredient tastes
| bad you shouldn't use it. Also we always search for the balance,
| there shouldn't be too much meat or too much vegetables, just the
| right balance where each flavour brings the best of the each
| other.
| anandrm wrote:
| "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of bad ingredients" -
| Thats a very pretentious statement , i hear this from lot of
| stake guys. The use of spice is totally cultural, few do have
| medicinal value - the best example would be (Curcuma,Cinnamon
| etc) ..Some spices that are native to Asia/Africa make big
| difference in food flavors.You appreciate it when you grow up
| with it. I also understand why people appreciate meat without
| spices , it also involves which region the meat is from . From
| what i have experienced , the meat ( lamb) in Asia and Europe
| is totally different in texture. Its like fish , there is big
| difference between a lake fish, river fish and sea fish .
| NullPrefix wrote:
| Oh, you burned your food? It's ok, there's ketchup.
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > In Italy we say: "A lot of spices are to cover the taste of
| bad ingredients".
|
| Paul Bocuse pretty much said the same thing about modern French
| gastronomy stating (paraphrasing) France's emphasis on sauces
| is primarily to 'mask mediocre cuts of meat.' It's a reason why
| I never found very compelling in comparison to Spanish or
| Italian cuisine. The former only recently being in vogue
| because of the work Ferran Adria.
|
| Whereas in Italian and Japanese cuisine (both being my
| repertoire) a greater emphasis is in exalting humble
| ingredients with skill, prep and elaboration and an emphasis
| and an eye for in-season quality and utilizing them in smaller
| portions than other countries--the highest of this maxim being
| found in Kaiseki menus.
|
| I cannot stomach Indian cuisine because of an almost refusal to
| follow this norm, it seems like they throw everything in their
| mise at any given dish and over cook and over season it with
| every spice and herb available to hide this fact, and the
| dishes look visually unappetizing and of I'm honest post-
| digested.
|
| I know HN has a lot of Indians so I will stop there as my aim
| is not to offend anyone, simply give my professional
| perspective, but it seems almost like an affinity for Indian
| food has now become more about 'political wokeness' in the
| professional scene then it does with acceptable norms and
| practices of most Western trained chefs/cooks, because it
| defies everything we know about cuisine--this alone is not a
| bad thing, but its hard to relate to and even harder to justify
| at times unless you work in one.
|
| One of my sous chefs dated an Indian women and despite being a
| blond, blue eyed German/Polish mixed male from the midwest he
| was the most vociferous about for Indian cuisine I have ever
| met, even amongst Indians. He was always trying to force us to
| eat Indian snacks on the line that were overwhelming seasoned
| in cumin and various curry powders, ruining our palettes for
| service.
|
| But maybe this is just a perspective held by most of the US:
| mistaking culinary acceptance as desirable inclusiveness.
|
| Because outside of SoCal where Korean food was always a
| mainstay since the massive wave of Korean migration to LA in
| the 60s most in the US, until recently, (myself included btw)
| viewed kimchi and the rest of Korean cuisine as a very stinky
| and off putting thing to eat. It made sense after or while
| drinking as it's strong and honestly one-dimensional flavour
| profile made the booze go down better.
|
| Is it snobbery, or just a refinement and adjustment in
| palette(s) from a Continent that sent people to their deaths
| for peppercorns to lord over their dinner guests as a signal of
| wealth and status?
|
| Having done my apprenticeship and having ran kitchens in Europe
| I'd say it was just an iteration from a previous myopic and
| haphazard art form--people still use paints with radioactive
| elements because the colours are somehow more _vibrant_ then
| their non-radioactive counterparts. I 've seen both examples,
| and to be honest I couldn't tell a difference.
|
| Edit: Seems like I'll still get down voted for trying to be
| diplomatic anyway, haha.
| praestigiare wrote:
| There is a lot of reflect on in this comment, if you care to
| do the work. You are mistaking your personal preference for a
| certain style of food for the "western norm" which is
| obviously not correct because you also exclude the French
| tradition, which most would consider part of the heart of
| western cooking. You then suggest that people with different
| preferences are either less informed (not a chef) or less
| sincere (wokeness) than you. I think you will find that
| neither is the case: there are many who are just as well
| informed as you who sincerely hold a different opinion.
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > There is a lot of reflect on in this comment, if you care
| to do the work. You are mistaking your personal preference
| for a certain style of food for the "western norm" which is
| obviously not correct because you also exclude the French
| tradition, which most would consider part of the heart of
| western cooking. You then suggest that people with
| different preferences are either less informed (not a chef)
| or less sincere (wokeness) than you. I think you will find
| that neither is the case: there are many who are just as
| well informed as you who sincerely hold a different
| opinion.
|
| We all worked in the same kitchen and at no time would the
| overwhelming use of spices and herbs (as in Indian cusiene)
| enhance our recipes when we sourced local, organic, grass
| fed animal proteins and seasonal vegetables.
|
| I'm not discounting French cuisine, it's an over-valued
| archaic relic but a cornerstone of Western gastronomy
| nonetheless, what I am saying is that even Bocuse (the
| Godfather of modern French gastronomy) followed the adage
| that sauces were there to cover up mediocre cuts of meat.
|
| Where as we worked in a farm to table whose entire point of
| existence was to do less and thus deliver a better dish as
| the work had already been done by the farmer who took care
| to deliver and pay close attention to quality over
| quantity. Something I knew well and learned first hand, and
| took very serious.
|
| I did nearly my entire career in farm to tables, with short
| stints working under Michelin chefs or staging at James
| Beard awarded fine dining restaurants, and to be honest
| none of it was compelling enough for me to stay--they all
| tried too hard to carve their initials in to the clients
| stomach than take the time to focus and source for better
| ingredient that needed less inputs. Covering a dish with $7
| worth of micro flowers doesn't make something 'good,'
| especially if that was sourced from a generic meat section
| from Shamrock's catalog.
|
| Moreover, I also did a Biodyanamic apprenticeship in
| horticulture alongside all of that while I worked in
| European kitchens and then ran a Biodynmic farm in Hawaii
| after I completed my apprenticeship.
|
| So, while you may have reason to think it's unfounded
| snobbery without all of his in mind, I would ask: have you
| ever gardened, let alone farmed? I used to ask the same to
| my fellow cooks and chefs, and the resounding response in
| all but one case was: no. And he had only began after he
| joined us.
|
| Which is why I hold the position that I do.
| justin66 wrote:
| > unfounded snobbery
|
| "Founded" snobbery is snobbery nevertheless.
|
| > Which is why I hold the position that I do.
|
| You... supervise other, more junior snobs?
| djpr wrote:
| Fantastic to hear you have that Michelin/James Beard
| experience. And as someone that does, I'm sure you know
| that style of cooking (esp. much of Michelin) is not the
| entirety of gastronomy.
|
| I spend my time around the Michelin/50 Best chef crowd,
| so I hear often this "respect the ingredients" mindset,
| but it's just one mindset. It's limiting to think of
| spices "covering up" a bad ingredient, when one can also
| think about the dish in totality - which includes
| everything from spices to how its cooked to the quality
| of the main ingredients.
|
| One can enjoy Asador Etxebarri, and the technical
| excellence on how the chef expertly plays with fire to
| complement the main ingredient, and also enjoy mole from
| Oaxaca, rendang from Indonesia, and so on.
|
| You can also combine both. I have had phenomenal laksa in
| the Basque country, playing on the bright flavors of
| Asian spices and the amazing product (seafood) found in
| the Basque country.
|
| Gastronomy is that full breath of that experience. We can
| prefer more one of the other, but you're cheating
| yourself to be so dismissive.
| blueblisters wrote:
| This is such an amusing take. I upvoted just because I think
| this just falls within acceptable level of discourse on HN
| (not inflammatory etc.), and I bet there are quite a few
| folks out there who feel the same way as you do.
|
| I think you're partly right - Indian food does not yet have
| the snobbery you would find in other cuisines - yet. But
| there a few chefs out there, like Gaggan Anand, who are
| working to make it more palatable in an "upscale" setting.
| But I wholly disagree with the idea Indian food uses spices
| to mask poor quality ingredients or preparations. Perhaps you
| haven't got a chance to try the more elaborate preparations,
| but there are well documented ways of cooking many dishes in
| the "right" way with the "right" mix of ingredients and
| spices, but most restaurants and households end up using
| their own judgement for convenience and/or novelty.
| tmotwu wrote:
| Completely agree. I don't think he should be ragged on for
| his opinion but he presented his opinion as objective
| truth, based on logic and reason (everyone else's palate is
| driven by their cultural guilt???), when it was anything
| but. This definitely rubbed many the wrong way.
|
| Here's how I see this. I'm not Indian but my parents loved
| making curry. To them, the point about curry is not about
| complementing the flavor of the meat or the vegetables. The
| curry itself is the actual true dish, the flavor you want
| to consume. It is the primary ingredient. You can really
| have curry without anything else. Any addons were simply
| added nutrition, nothing to do with masking poor quality.
|
| The simple fact is, some people appreciate the taste of
| meat, and some people appreciate the taste of spices. You
| can enjoy a lightly seasoned ribeye if you're looking for a
| pure beefy taste or have a good meal of curry, having
| either is not the end all be all of flavor.
| goos wrote:
| Is this any different from saying that neo-minimalism is
| "better" than neo-expressionism?
|
| Your criteria for evaluating food seems to put heavy emphasis
| on visuals (as you mention indian dishes look post-digested)
| and freshness of ingredients, but these criteria are not
| universal. As the article mentioned, one big difference is
| that Indian cuisine is deeply intertwined with ayurvedic
| medicine (like hot spices being good for you if you're
| lethargic,) and thus emphasizing the health benefits of said
| spices. And that's not even getting into how flavor itself is
| highly cultural.
|
| With this in mind, attempting to apply any objective
| judgement is moot, because your success criteria are entirely
| different.
| leto_ii wrote:
| > One of my sous chefs dated an Indian women and despite
| being a blond, blue eyed German/Polish mixed male from the
| midwest he was the most vociferous about for Indian cuisine I
| have ever met, even Indians
|
| Why would somebody's hair/eye color matter when it comes to
| their culinary preferences?
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > Why would somebody's hair/eye color matter when it comes
| to their culinary preferences?
|
| It's often cultural guilt, in my experience. The most non-
| Indian person often feels compelled to be the loudest voice
| in some sort of over-compensation for acceptance amongst
| those he seeks validation from. Food is seriously the most
| political thing in existence,.
|
| Also, I don't think St. Louis, where he was from, was
| exactly a beacon for Indian cuisine, either.
|
| I've seen it enough times to see through it.
|
| Then again all my German and Austrian friends loved Indian
| food and had all traveled there at one point, most were
| vegan and vegetarian which kind makes sense, but still was
| kind of repetitive in theme.
| leto_ii wrote:
| I don't think you actually addressed my question to be
| honest. In your previous comment you introduced racial
| undertones that it seems to me you're now trying to gloss
| over by making it about culture instead.
|
| > It's often cultural guilt
|
| Cultural guilt over what precisely?
|
| > The most non-Indian person
|
| What precisely makes a person more or less Indian?
| claudiawerner wrote:
| "It couldn't possibly be that someone genuinely likes the
| flavors, aromas, textures, and diversity of a cuisine.
| No, it's cultural guilt."
|
| Saying 'food is political' doesn't mean anything. Of
| course it's 'political', just as all art is 'political'.
| But it would be ridiculous to suggest that I like rock
| music because I have 'cultural guilt', or because I'm
| 'over-compensating' - as if I'm trying hard to like it so
| I'm "woke".
|
| All your comments in this thread have a serious lack of
| foundation. As it turns out, people generally just find
| Indian food either tasty (usually on account of the
| spices, salt, and oil - like most food) or convenient
| (for vegetarians or vegans). You can read as much as you
| like into it, but at this point you're just making
| guesses and shoe-horning it into the culture war topic de
| jour.
| andrewzah wrote:
| You need to do some introspection and ask yourself why
| you assume these things about people and food. This is
| not healthy.
|
| It is not normal to make these assumptions about what
| people like because of assumptions about them due to
| where they are from.
|
| It is bizarre, judgemental, and completely
| unsubstantiated. Let people like food (and things in
| general), stop over-complicating things and injecting
| your own political biases into it. Everything in life is
| political, what of it? Humans need to eat.
|
| Also, good food and good food prep is not limited to any
| country or nationality.
| tweetle_beetle wrote:
| > The most non-Indian person often feels compelled to be
| the loudest voice in some sort of over-compensation for
| acceptance amongst those he seeks validation from.
|
| from a previous comment:
|
| > Whereas in Italian and Japanese cuisine (both being my
| repertoire) a greater emphasis is in exalting humble
| ingredients with skill, prep and elaboration and an
| emphasis and an eye for in-season quality and utilizing
| them in smaller portions than other countries...
|
| We're all entitled to opinions about things, especially
| something as subjective as food. But this sounds a lot
| like the pot calling the kettle black to me.
| Arkhaine_kupo wrote:
| You are so wrong I do not even know where to start. But
| because I was the most offended about the spanish comments I
| will start there.
|
| > The former only recently being in vogue because of the work
| Ferran Adria.
|
| That is not true, Spain has many regions with formidable
| chefs. But for example the Basque country is one of the areas
| of the world with most Michelin Stars per square mile,
| comparable to Tokyo, New York etc. Basque cuisine is almost
| exclusively based on simple ingredients done well.
|
| The fact you are so supremely uneducated about something so
| well known means the rest of the comment can be taken with a
| pinch of salt, no pun intended.
|
| Japanese food has minimalist traditions but it also has it
| hotpot of "add it all together" common recipes which are all
| fantastic.
|
| > mistaking culinary acceptance as desirable inclusiveness.
|
| I am european, your comment is just misinformed and wrong. It
| is not even down to opinion, you are factually wrong and
| incredibly self confident based on meeting one Indian guy at
| work.
|
| > Is it snobbery
|
| Yes, and the worst kind. I say this as a snob myself. I save
| up to eat at great restaurants and go far off the trail for
| certain food experiences. But I have eaten in the worst
| joints in Sichuan with incredibly spicy food, and delicious
| traditional Pakistani curries and neither has ruined my
| palette to eat Sous vide sirloin with crystal salt
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > That is not true, Spain has many regions with formidable
| chefs. But for example the Basque country is one of the
| areas of the world with most Michelin Stars per square
| mile, comparable to Tokyo, New York etc. Basque cuisine is
| almost exclusively based on simple ingredients done well.
|
| I never said nothing else existed before him, I just said
| Spanish cuisine became in vogue because of Ferran. That's
| undeiable, he put so many on the map, who had actually been
| doing things before Feran even took over El Bulgi, and
| kitchens in Basque Country were one of many examples.
|
| My family is from Valencia and I did my summers there in my
| youth, I don't need to be 'schooled' on it's eclectic and
| highly regarded diverse cuisine. I just restated my views
| of how non-culinary people viewed Spanish and Italian
| cuisine below French.
|
| I'm just saying go find someone not in the Industry or a
| devout foodie (before the internet no less) who knows about
| the intricacies of Asturian/Gallecian cuisine vs Catalan
| and then compare that to how lined up to work for free at
| El Bulgi.
|
| My friend and cook moved from Brazil, then went to France
| and then to Andalucia and worked for nothing to be at El
| Bulgi Hotel... this is the power of marketing, none of
| which was found in Pais Basco for most where they had been
| serving some of the the best seafood for millenia. Nor was
| any of its offerings known outside of foodie circles; did
| all of that exist before Ferran? Of course, but I'm saying
| it wasn't well known until Ferran's avant garde cusinese
| made the masses pay attention to Spanish cuisine.
|
| > The fact you are so supremely uneducated about something
| so well known means the rest of the comment can be taken
| with a pinch of salt, no pun intended.
|
| Again, you can draw whatever conclusion you want from my
| comment, but I still don't see anything but conjecture on
| your part. Moreover, I'd ask what have you done in this
| Industry to speak with such an arrogant tone? I told you
| what I did, and why I have the opinion (key word here is
| opinion) that I do.
|
| > Japanese food has minimalist traditions but it also has
| it hotpot of "add it all together" common recipes which are
| all fantastic.
|
| Nabemono. And yes, that is true but have you ever made one?
|
| It's a staple in my home: and its made from simple dashi
| with often small amounts of protein cooked in shabu-shabu
| manner with seasonal vegetables and often tofu and maybe
| noodles in some cases, how does that that detract from what
| I said about being in line with what I said?
|
| Japanese cuisine is about subtlety and refined contrast
| between its flavours and maintaining textures. It's a fine
| balance of both. Bombarding you with immeasurable flavour
| is a very Kansai (specifically Osaka) thing but that's
| limited to street food, which is actually really good, too.
| And matches it's work hard, and party harder drinking
| culture.
|
| But something like nabemono has nothing to do with that.
|
| Again, I'm failing to see what YOU are actual rebuttaling
| against here other than your own conjecture.
|
| > I save up to eat at great restaurants and go far off the
| trail for certain food experiences...
|
| Awesome, and I can tell you fancy yourself as something of
| a foodie, but that doesn't mean you know anything of how
| food is or should be prepared and served best--do you study
| harvest dates for certain vegetable and fruit cultivars or
| trialed slaughter periods/season of livestock? I have, that
| was part of my farming apprenticeship. I used that
| experience in my culinary career, often to deaf ears which
| is why I focused on farm to tables.
|
| There is something off-putting about what amounts to a
| client telling a cook about how something should be made,
| and then calling them supremely uneducated, don't you
| think?
| jiofih wrote:
| > Moreover, I'd ask what have you done in this Industry
| to speak with such an arrogant tone
|
| Oh the self-awareness. You really believe whatever
| achievements you have give _you_ the right to be
| arrogant, don't you? They don't. Clearly, as you have
| proven, experienced people can have terribly skewed
| opinions and most people realize that.
| Arkhaine_kupo wrote:
| > I just said Spanish cuisine became in vogue because of
| Ferran.
|
| Maybe 20 years ago. "In vogue" in cooking changes every 3
| years. See the rise of Peruvian cooking, Korean cuisine,
| or the incremental choice of vegan options on high end
| restaurants in the past 10 years.
|
| > (before the internet no less)
|
| Yeah in 1990-2005 the food culture of much parts of the
| world was under developed. That does not mean that it was
| the tradition of the country. You seem to conflate public
| knowledge with what a country is doing, and reputation
| and reality do not always match.
|
| By the way the restaurant is called (was called) El
| Bulli, no idea why you called it Bulgi.
|
| > Bombarding you with immeasurable flavour is a very
| Kansai (specifically Osaka)
|
| I thought you said that it was not part of Japanese
| cuisine? You also disparaged sauces as elements used to
| hide flavour, when Japan is huge on sauces.
|
| It is almost as if your "mantras" do not hold, even for
| the traditions you seem to cherish.
|
| > There is something off-putting about what amounts to a
| client telling a cook about how something should be made,
| and then calling them supremely uneducated, don't you
| think?
|
| Yes there is, hence why I admitted my snobbishness. But
| Me being a dickhead does not stop any of my points for
| being true.
|
| You claimed the following things.
|
| - Sauces are hindrance to dish that respects the quality
| of the products.
|
| - You prefer Italian and Japanese traditions of cooking
| due to their minimalist approach and respect of seasonal
| offerings.
|
| - You consider spiced foods detrimental to sophisticated
| palettes and the abuse of enhancers of flavours as an
| insult to delicate, respectful food items.
|
| My reply was, as someone who also prefers simple, great
| ingredient dishes, that none of what you said holds up.
|
| + Sauces can be as much a staple of the dish as just
| something to hide the flavour.
|
| Eg. You can hide shit cow cuts with a strong pepper sauce
| which French cuisine (and British) excels at. But you can
| also have a delicate creamy peppercorn sauce that
| highlights all the earthy undertones of a good grass fed
| Ox steak.
|
| You can use curry and curcumin to hide terrible chicken
| breasts or hard lamb. But it can also be a rich sauce
| that bring an orchestra of flavour (not unlike good
| teriyaki can be).
|
| + Japanese/Italian traditions antiquated over sauce based
| French/ sauced and spiced Indian.
|
| Despite the fact that Italian has traditions that use
| heavy handed spices, in a way Mexicans would heavily
| approve of. There is also the very glaring omission of
| how much of traditional Italian food is straight up
| hiding bad ingredients. Lasagna uses cheese and bechamel
| to hide many times little or bad quality mince meat, it
| was a way to feed a large family with very little quality
| meat. And so are many traditional Italian dishes. Of
| course a refined carbonara is incredible, but back in the
| day, some hard cheese a random egg you had lying around
| and a little pepper was not delicate or considered one of
| the best emulsified sauces. It was a "oh god how do I
| feed my family with 3 random things I have lying around".
| The home aspect of Italian cuisine is incredibly relevant
| to the conversation because the use of seasonal
| vegetables comes using whatever was at hand, is an
| incredibly humble origin that makes it so much more
| worthy of the international appraise it has now.
|
| Now in terms of Japanese Cuisine. Yeah they do have tons
| of minimalist, respectful products. But outside of the
| fact you admitted they have tons of flavorful dishes (you
| put them aside as street food but at least admitted their
| existence). I do not think you really have looked closely
| at some of the product origin. Japan has eel all year
| round by buying it at absurd prices from European
| markets, their fishing industry is dodgy (to not call it
| criminal), none of this is in any way in line with your
| idea of "local sourced, respectful product". There is
| nothing respectful about cutting red tuna properly and
| putting it on sushi if you're driving the animal to
| extinction.
|
| + Spices, in general, are great. Which is why a lot of
| the original salaries where paid in spice. I assume you
| are not against all spices, so there is a line you draw.
| Pepper and salt are ok, but cinnamon and curcumin are too
| overpowering. It just seems like being under exposed to
| some spices and finding them strong. In europe cinammon
| is mostly used in desserts so some dishes that use it in
| India can seem a bit off putting at first, but the truth
| is, that it has a great pairing with many dishes. Being
| unused to something and calling it bad are two very
| different things.
|
| Considering the things you prefer, Peruvian cuisine will
| be down your ally. Of all the South American cuisines its
| the most delicate. Maybe that is a more gentle
| introduction into their flavour profiles. Same way
| lebanese is a good introduction to Middle eastern. Once
| you "get" those, the more extreme versions, like Afghan
| food, or Oaxaca mexican flavours.
|
| Not sure if there is a good introduction to Indian food,
| as their flavour profiles are all very stark. But the
| British versions are all tailored for european tastes, so
| maybe that is a good stepping stone instead of curry
| snacks.
|
| To answer some of your questions.
|
| > do you study harvest dates for certain vegetable and
| fruit cultivars or trialed slaughter periods/season of
| livestock?
|
| Did not have to, grew up buying in a market, so only
| seasonal stuff was available. You kinda get a knack for
| when things will be coming around. Now that I live near a
| supermarket I am sad seeing certain veggies all year
| round.
|
| > I'd ask what have you done in this Industry to speak
| with such an arrogant tone?
|
| Nothing at all, but I have no issue with personal
| preferences. But putting down thousands of chefs work as
| inferior is not an opinion, its just factually wrong.
|
| > Nabemono. And yes, that is true but have you ever made
| one?
|
| I was thinking more in line of Okonomiyaki and its
| thousands of variations, not really a respectful dish,
| more of a "lets see what we have around". (Also I meant
| to say hotchpotch and the autocorrector put hot pot, just
| saw why you mentioned nabemono).
| 1996 wrote:
| > In europe cinammon is mostly used in desserts so some
| dishes that use it in India can seem a bit off putting at
| first, but the truth is, that it has a great pairing with
| many dishes. Being unused to something and calling it bad
| are two very different things.
|
| Can you suggest something that goes well with Cinnamon?
|
| It's one of the spices I find the most intriguing! So
| common for desserts, even in the US, but not for savory
| food!
| Arkhaine_kupo wrote:
| > Can you suggest something that goes well with Cinnamon?
|
| Sure! I have to admit is not a spice I use too much.
| (Brings back nostalgia of rice puddings etc). But it is
| quite an autumnal spice, so think of it like something
| that would go well with those flavours.
|
| For example pork loins with apple can use a little clove
| or cinammon if you want to have it enhance the sweetness
| of the apple.
|
| It also works well with nice autumn soups, butternut
| squash, pumpkin, carrot. All of those can have some
| cinammon and round the flavours of it.
|
| It is also heavily used in some Indian dishes. Very
| flavourful sauces with gram masala, can again have cloves
| and/or cinammon added. I think it's quite varied the
| spices that different regions use but anything from
| butter chicken, to Korma to a more European style tikka
| masala can work with cinammon in certain combinations.
| But because the sauces are quite rich, you will notice it
| less.
| djpr wrote:
| To add to what Arkhaine_kupo said: In Southeast Asia, you
| can find cinnamon used in beef dishes, such as in beef
| rendang found in Indonesia and Malaysia. Typically a 2-3
| sticks of cinnamon are thrown in, along with coconut
| milk, curry leaves, and more.
|
| Cinnamon is also added to chicken or mutton, such as in
| varuval (Malaysian dish adapted from a South Indian one).
|
| Over in China (and also in Chinese communities in
| Southeast Asia): There's the Chinese five-spices, used a
| lot in BBQ pork. It typically has cinnamon and cloves
| along with star anises and two other spices.
|
| If you have more questions about any of this, let me
| know!
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Butter chicken itself is the epitome of "covering up bad
| ingredients"
| andrewzah wrote:
| You're being downvoted for having an extremely bad take on
| why people like food.
|
| Regarding kimchi: I had never eaten it until I was ~22. Now I
| love it, can't get enough of it. Go through jars of it pretty
| fast, and I miss numerous dishes from Korea. The growth in
| popularity is a simple explanation: Korea in general has
| exploded in popularity due to kpop & korean dramas. So it's
| reasonable that it has placed korean food on more peoples'
| radars. It's reasonable to say that not everyone likes
| kimchi, as it's pretty pungent and the typical variety is a
| bit spicy, but I love that smell.
|
| Also you are completely wrong about Korean cuisine. I have no
| idea how you could say it's "one dimensional", unless you
| were predisposed to not like it in the first place. Korean
| food is diverse and in general, very good.
|
| My brother worked at a popular Thai place, so he picked up
| some good recipes. As an American, we've both grown up
| exposed to many X-American food styles. The idea of us liking
| i.e. indian food because of politics is absurd to the point
| of being comical.
|
| It's so condescending and arrogant to assume that -liking
| food- must have to do with one's political viewpoints. Just
| because you don't find something appealing doesn't mean
| nobody else does. I believe that you are projecting something
| and you don't realize it.
| [deleted]
| hnedeotes wrote:
| Indian food is amazing, specially if you're vegetarian. If
| someone would ask me to choose a menu for 5 days out of a
| week, for breakfast, lunch and dinner between a 5* Michelin
| chef or yellow lentil curry with 2 rotis and a coconut
| sembal, I would go with the curry. Any day. When you look at
| vegetarian cuisine outside of india, with very few exceptions
| in terms of restaurants and few exceptions in terms of
| dishes, it looks like unimaginative dimwits took to the pans.
| vram22 wrote:
| A couple of points :)
|
| 1. The yellow lentil dish is not usually called a curry
| (google the word 'curry', it is a much abused omnibus term
| for many Indian dishes). It is called a dal, as in "dal
| fry" or "dal tadka" (and not dhal(l) either :)
|
| 2. Coconut (or any) s _a_ mbal is not an Indian dish, it is
| SE Asian, like Malaysian, although some Indian chutneys may
| resemble sambals in taste. India has a similar-sounding
| dish called sambar, but it is completely different. It is a
| kind of thick soupy dal which is sour (from tamarind or
| lemon or tomato) and often has some vegetable pieces in it.
| (Spices too, of course.) Usually served to go with rice, as
| in sambar rice, or with idli or dosa(i).
|
| Anyway, nice to hear you like dal and rotis that much (e.g.
| 5 days a week). I do, too (with a sabji as well), and the
| same for rice, dal and sabji (a vegetable curry or dry veg
| dish). Those two combos are what the bulk of millions of
| Indian live on, day in and day out, even today. Except that
| some substitute some millet[1] or other for the rice or
| wheat (roti). And those can taste even better. But that is
| another story.
|
| [1] India has many millets, of which jowar and bajra are
| probably best known, but others are making a resurgence
| these days. In some ways they are more nutritious, and
| also, many need less resources (like water) than rice and
| wheat do.
| hnedeotes wrote:
| whoops, got my culinary knowledge put in place.
|
| 1) yeap, confirmed that's it
|
| 2) this was in Sri Lanka, they did also have sambal that
| is closer to the one with onions done in
| Malasya/Indonesia but this one was with coconut and no
| onions, more dry than wet, just fine strands of what
| seems semi-dry coconut with spices (smashed chillis?) and
| they served it in many regular places along the dal
| tadka?
|
| The idea I have is that it was called sambal as well but
| I might be wrong or be the tourist name? (and india is
| big and has many different types of different cuisines -
| one thing is common throughout though, vegetarian food is
| good and varied anywhere)
|
| Well yes, I actually ate it many times (not for lack of
| other choices but it was a dish I enjoyed eating
| repeatedly). There's others I liked a lot but can't
| remember the names if I'm being honest. I know it when I
| taste them though ahah.
|
| Thank you for correcting me, I have to go back and do a
| proper research and take notes of it.
|
| > In some ways they are more nutritious
|
| This is one of the things that I think separates
| vegetarian cuisine well done from others. You never feel
| like the dishes are lacking in taste, texture, or that
| you haven't got enough "food" to keep you well fed while
| still being usually light on the body.
| tmotwu wrote:
| Such a weird take. When the likeness of Bourdain and Ramsay
| are criticized for appropriation, you come up with a
| completely opposite reality - that some food enthusiasts are
| simply politically woke. I've lived in both deeply homogenous
| rural farmlands of the Midwestern US and major liberal
| centers in Europe for long periods of time, the former has a
| far larger affinity towards spicy food - even moreso towards
| foreign options like Chinese, Thai, Mexican. I can absolutely
| guarantee it has nothing to do with wokeness/inclusiveness
| and simply the fact that it tastes good. I can still enjoy a
| wide variety of cuisines and still appreciate their flavors,
| whether or not it's spice heavy - my palette is not ruined.
| You're very much a snob.
| jfengel wrote:
| Just my perspective: being diplomatic practically never
| includes the term "wokeness". The term is pretty much
| exclusively disparaging. You're accusing people of being
| insincere in their preferences.
|
| The word is a catchall ad hominem, used to dismiss any
| argument such that people don't really mean what they say,
| without having to address their actual argument at all. I'd
| suggest that any time you're tempted to use that in an
| argument, you might consider skipping that and talking
| instead about the actual thing under discussion.
| pjc50 wrote:
| If you were trying to be diplomatic you wouldn't have
| included the word "woke".
|
| _Different people like different things for different
| reasons_.
|
| > refusal to follow this norm
|
| That's why it's called a norm, not a universal law.
|
| (Random personal anecdote: I last visited San Francisco a
| long time ago, in the early 2000s, but as a Brit it seemed to
| me that there were hardly any Indian restaurants compared to
| what I was used to. Of course, British-Indian cuisine is a
| laundered version of Indian cuisine itself .. and the
| restaurants are more likely to be run by Bangladeshis. What
| is authenticity, really?)
| nemo44x wrote:
| Go down into the Valley and you'll find many great ones.
| Got to go to where the Indian people are.
| goos wrote:
| > (Random personal anecdote: I last visited San Francisco a
| long time ago, in the early 2000s, but as a Brit it seemed
| to me that there were hardly any Indian restaurants
| compared to what I was used to. Of course, British-Indian
| cuisine is a laundered version of Indian cuisine itself ..
| and the restaurants are more likely to be run by
| Bangladeshis. What is authenticity, really?)
|
| It seems to have gotten much better since - I've been in
| San Francisco these past two years and have had some really
| good Indian food. I had an amazing tasting menu at a
| restaurant called August 1 Five (that unfortunately seems
| to have closed during the pandemic) with things that I've
| only had in India (like panipuri.)
| qiqing wrote:
| Sounds like an opinion that exactly matches the mentality
| that the article describes. And in modern day too!
| jiofih wrote:
| You had a work colleague who, we can assume with the same
| background as yours, delved into Indian cuisine through his
| partner and enjoyed discovering new flavors - and all you
| remember is how _annoying_ he was.
|
| I can't fathom how a professional cook/chef would not be
| curious enough to try and understand his excitement. Unless
| you worry more about being a fac-simile of a French chef
| stereotype than actually care about food, it's history and
| the wonderful experiences it can create.
| ska wrote:
| I think you mostly getting downvoted because you are trying
| to assert preference as somehow empirically supported, and
| using a weak argument-from-authority to try and justify it.
|
| It doesn't really matter if most of the commenters here have
| far less industry experience than you; obviously it isn't
| hard to find far more qualified industry insiders than you
| who would disagree with your take. I'm not sure how much it
| matters though, cuisines don't live in restaurant kitchens
| anyway.
|
| There is nothing wrong with having a food philosophy or
| aesthetic preference and pursuing it as far as you can.
| Pretending it is somehow demonstrably superior or some how
| "more mature" is at best problematic, and usually foolish.
|
| You say "I cannot stomach Indian food"; fine - accept that
| it's your loss and move on. Trying to turn it into a virtue
| isn't going to get you far.
|
| Perhaps to counter that take, I've been lucky enough to
| experience first rate offerings from all of the cuisines you
| mention and universally some of it has been really great for
| me. Does that just mean I'm somehow limited by a plebian
| palate, and somehow if I was just better educated I would
| have likes some of it less?
| helmholtz wrote:
| I'm Indian, and some of the most amusing conversations I've had
| about food have been with Italians.
|
| An Italian professor was insistent that I stand up and defend
| the need for Indian food to use a million spices. He was proud
| of the fact that delicious Italian food could be whipped up
| using just three ingredients. I was in full agreement with him,
| that Italian food was wonderful, and that it was commendable
| how far they could take simple ingredients. But he was almost
| demanding (diplomatically of course) that I take the other side
| and argue that one needed a million spices to make good food.
|
| An Italian friend was aghast that I would suggest putting Onion
| and Garlic in the _same_ meal. It was strictly either /or for
| him.
| castlecrasher2 wrote:
| Indian food is one of my favorites, saag being my top choice.
| I'm amazed at how many ingredients go into it.
| divtiwari wrote:
| FYI 'Saag' is just a generic name to refer to gravy dishes,
| that are eaten with chapatis. There are hundreds of
| varieties of saag.
| DerDangDerDang wrote:
| Thanks, I always thought saag was any sauce made
| primarily from leafy greens
| pjc50 wrote:
| This is food-as-fandom, isn't it? It's not enough to enjoy
| your own tastes, you have to get out there and tell people
| that your taste is superior to theirs. You can see it playing
| out even in this thread.
| michaelscott wrote:
| Indian food was the first cuisine I thought of when reading
| GP's comment. Indian food is, at least in my opinion, just as
| incredible and delicious as Italian food while utilising many
| spices and ingredients. You also get unique kinds of flavours
| that are impossible to achieve using European approaches to
| cooking, and to miss out on these because of culinary
| snobbery seems extremely sad.
| reader_mode wrote:
| If you want to be snobbishly criticised about arbitrary food
| choices by strangers Italy is the place.
|
| I've worked for a client in Italy, a short guy trying to
| aggressively assert superiority because of how he drinks
| coffee is a uniquely Italian experience. Oh and the hands and
| feet mime English is equally entertaining.
| daveslash wrote:
| _Re >> aghast that I would suggest putting Onion and Garlic
| in the same meal. It was strictly either/or for him. _
|
| American here. This is quite surprising to me - that wouldn't
| have occurred to me. Pan searing garlic and onion (before
| adding additional ingredients) is the _" omg, what are you
| cooking?!, it smells _great_!!"_ starter kit in my home -
| when it's literally just those two things.
| simongray wrote:
| I have had similar conversations with Italians about food or
| coffee. They're very passionate about both and - at least
| when it comes to coffee - will also get into heated
| discussions over it with other Italians, not just foreigners.
| I think it's just the culture.
| plafl wrote:
| I'm Spanish, not Italian, but we also talk quite loud.
| Maybe all discussions look heated to foreigners.
| andrepd wrote:
| In Portugal there's a saying: "he/she shouts like a
| Spaniard".
|
| Then again who are we of all people to judge?
| Sharlin wrote:
| Italian discussions literally _look_ very heated to, say,
| Northern Europeans, due to the very animated body
| language.
| rich_sasha wrote:
| > An Italian friend was aghast that I would suggest putting
| Onion and Garlic in the same meal. It was strictly either/or
| for him.
|
| That's a new one for me. No mixing of the two? Surely the
| very basis of a good tomato sauce is sweated onions and
| garlic? Ditto for risotto..?
| agurk wrote:
| Not knowing where you are from, I'd take a guess at
| American as there is a sharp divide in garlic use between
| Italian and Italian-American cusine.
|
| Italian food typically has a lot less garlic in it and if
| you had it in any of the classic dishes like ragu alla
| bolognese or risotto alla milanese it would be surprising.
| Dishes like spaghetti alla puttanesca or aglio e olio are
| classic examples where it is used.
|
| Marinara sauce of course has garlic as a key ingredient but
| this is normally thought of as a Italian-American dish and
| not something you'd typically find in Italy. Likewise if
| you had a ragu or risotto in the US you'd probably be
| surprised if there wasn't garlic in it. And let us not
| forget that other American invention of garlic bread.
|
| One thing I learned recently was that the typical types of
| garlic available in the US and Italy are different -
| softneck and hardneck respectively. Hardneck is a _lot_
| more flavourful than softneck which I believe goes a long
| way to explaining why it's used so much more frequently in
| the US (and in seemingly incredible quantities).
|
| There's a very good YouTube channel [0] about Italian
| cooking (In Italian, usually with English subtitles
| available) where on one episode of chef's reacting to other
| videos of "Italian cooking" they had a laugh about this
| stereotype of Italians eating lots of garlic.
|
| [0] https://youtube.com/user/italiasquisita
| moron4hire wrote:
| I work at a foreign language instruction company. Two of
| the funniest moments happened at the same lunch. The
| Italians declaring, "Americans use too much garlic." And
| the Turkish declaring, "Americans have too many kinds of
| cheese. Cheese is just cheese."
|
| I've been known to put garlic, onions, _and_ shallots
| into a dish.
| steinuil wrote:
| In my region (Piemonte) we certainly do. One of the most
| distinctive dishes is _bagna cauda_ , which is a dip
| sauce made mainly of anchovies and tons of garlic. It's
| usually recommended that you eat it before a day where
| you don't have to go out and interact with other people
| because you'll smell really badly of garlic :)
| vyrotek wrote:
| Sounds delicious. I'm surprised I haven't heard of it.
| I'll have to ask my Nonna about it when I can travel to
| Entracque again. :)
| jfengel wrote:
| It's got the bonus nerd connection in that a character on
| Babylon 5 spent an episode raving about it:
|
| https://babylon5.fandom.com/wiki/Bagna_Cauda
| agurk wrote:
| There has to be some sub-clause of Cunningham's law
| referring to the perilous activity about generalising
| Italian cuisine :)
|
| Does Piemonte cusine also include garlic in common
| sauces? Is it cooked into a soffrito or included as part
| of a battuto?
|
| I've still not got around to visiting Piemonte, but this
| talk is pushing it up my list.
| ASalazarMX wrote:
| - "Isn't that too much garlic for a dip?"
|
| - "Don't worry, the anchovies will cover the garlic
| smell".
| arethuza wrote:
| Isn't Sicilian food fairly spicy?
| kome wrote:
| not really, maybe you are thinking about some food from
| calabria.
| arethuza wrote:
| Certainly seemed fairly different to me when I visited - I
| was more used to northern Italian food.
|
| NB I should have been clearer - I don't mean that the food
| seemed spicey in absolute terms, just that compared to
| other Italian food I had tried there was a noticeable use
| of some spices.
|
| Edit: Also possible I was selecting the spicier items from
| menus!
| [deleted]
| dsomers wrote:
| Are you from the North? I know in Southern Italy red peppers
| are popular on some dishes. E.G. Spaghetti Aglio e Olio
| maury91 wrote:
| I'm from center ( Sardinia ), we also do Aglio, olio e
| peperoncino. We do use spicy peppers, but I must say they are
| not so common, majority of recipes don't use them but some
| people add them to taste.
|
| I do also like to add some spiciness, but the problem is that
| if you add just a little bit too much you taste only the
| spiciness and nothing else
| lonesword wrote:
| I spent one day in Cagliari and had a lovely time. One
| afternoon is an injustice to the island, but the whole trip
| was spurred by Ryan air's 10 euros flight tickets from Rome
| :D
| Melting_Harps wrote:
| > I'm from center ( Sardinia ), we also do Aglio, olio e
| peperoncino. We do use spicy peppers, but I must say they
| are not so common, majority of recipes don't use them but
| some people add them to taste.
|
| The center [0] would be Emilia Romanga, no? I was led to
| believe that Sardinia, like Corisca, is its own thing
| culturally speaking, isn't? I mena its been inhabited and
| conquered by every major European/Arab power at some point
| and its food definitely reflects that.
|
| Then again I'm also a walking contradiction: I lived and
| worked in Modena and Maranello and I'd cook southern
| recipes in an agrotourism kitchen with Northern and Central
| ingredients. I loved the look when as a Californian I
| nailed the right balance of spiciness and savoriness to
| satisfy a northerner (say Milan) for another order on
| something like pasta con le sarde.
|
| The owner, from Sicily, was always taken back by how well
| accepting his clientele (mainly Ferrari factory workers or
| eco-tourists from the North visiting the countryside) were
| to Southern dishes, especially those that 'a Californian
| made' who has to date never stepped foot in the 'proper'
| South.
|
| The furthest south I've ever gone was Bologna! I just
| really like southern cuisine and cooked and read a bunch of
| old hand me down cookbooks the owner brought with him and
| blogs and misc videos online while I did my apprenticeship
| in ER. I just find it more interesting as Northern food
| always felt too bloaty given it's emphasis on cheeses,
| butters and creams, which after having spent most of my
| time in Switzerland felt redundant.
|
| 0:
| https://martinmb.wixsite.com/ilmeteomartinmb/post/emilia-
| rom...
| praestigiare wrote:
| I think many would disagree - I have never found that
| capsaicin heat detracts from the other flavors. Indeed, if
| you look at reviews for even extremely hot sauces, you will
| often see complaints about the ones that rely only on heat,
| and do not have good flavor.
| mantap wrote:
| It works in reverse too. For people who habitually eat
| spicy food, when eating something non-spicy you can end up
| only tasting the "blandness" and not appreciating the
| flavours. Exactly like how cold food just doesn't taste as
| good as warm food (if it's meant to be warm), even though
| it's the exact same food.
| leetcrew wrote:
| > Exactly like how cold food just doesn't taste as good
| as warm food (if it's meant to be warm), even though it's
| the exact same food.
|
| sometimes the temperature really does change the food
| though. for example, a cheese sauce is a delicate
| emulsion of fat and proteins that is only stable in a
| certain temperature range. outside that range, the fat
| separates and you no longer have a sauce. of course if
| you reheat it, you can get back to the same consistency.
| on the other hand, coffee chemically changes as it cools.
| even if you could ignore the temperature, the cold cup
| wouldn't be the same as the warm cup. and if you reheat
| it, it changes even more.
| kleiba wrote:
| Speaking of snobbery: the reason why "Indian food is so
| delicious" is that beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. Or,
| more appropriately: "de gustibus non est disputandum". I know
| lots of people who _really_ don 't like Indian food. (luckily,
| I'm not one of them).
|
| Perhaps something that the cited studies overlooked: surely, one
| reason a lot of Indian dishes are tasty is their high calorie
| content. Hmmm, sweet calories.
|
| For instance, check out Vah Reh Vah chef's recipe for Dal Makhani
| [1]: the amount of oil, butter and cream combined in a single pot
| might well clog your arteries just by watching the video. ;-).
| Yet, I'll be damned if I didn't want to try it right away!
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq9rHij2z20
| Foobar8568 wrote:
| Well if you look at Chinese cuisine or even better, Cantonese one
| and dim sum, you realize that it was really to extract the most
| from scarce ingredients, not much meats or vegetables with a lot
| of carbs, and lots of seasoning to cover low quality ingredients.
|
| (I don't say the cuisine is bad nor not tasty, I am only talking
| about the cooking part).
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Chinese cuisine is very regional. It is certainly not about
| "lots of seasoning" or "low quality ingredients". Like all
| cuisines it requires good ingredients to get good results.
|
| Dim Sum do not use lots of seasoning, they try to work with the
| flavours and textures of the ingredients. This is a common
| theme in Chinese cuisine.
| ska wrote:
| > Well if you look at Chinese cuisine
|
| If you look at Chinese cuisine, you'll probably find that
| trying to compare it to say "Italian cuisine" doesn't really
| work - probably better to compare it to "European cuisine" and
| try and capture the breadth and depth.
| hrisng wrote:
| And I absolutely love that about Asian cooking. Some
| ingredients do not taste good on their own, and would be thrown
| away in western cultures, but they really shine with the right
| spices and seasoning. Organ meat in a hot pot is amazing.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Interesting, the indulgence/purity pendulum again. This seems to
| have happened a lot. The overindulgence of, say, Elizabethan
| outfits, all ruffs and slashes, versus much more staid black
| later on. Men inventing the high heeled boot then it switching to
| be a women's article of clothing. The ridiculous over-influence
| of France in all of these things, especially cooking. And of
| course the big indulgence/puritan fight that dominated Europe
| from the 1500s to the 1800s, the Reformation.
| mattmanser wrote:
| French was the language that everyone used for diplomacy, so I
| assume that's how their culture spread in that period.
|
| Much like American culture spreads so easily at the moment
| because of English.
| boudin wrote:
| On the cuisine side, it's also the act a few people that made
| french cuisine popular in the west.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie-Antoine_Car%C3%AAme
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Escoffier
|
| Especially Escoffier did set the ground on how to run a big
| restaurant kitchen efficiently.
|
| I'm sure part of it was France influence, but I wonder how
| much of it was also due to people who had a big influence in
| a specific field. They happened to be French, but they could
| have been from another country as well.
| oytis wrote:
| > They moved on to an aesthetic theory of taste. Rather than
| infusing food with spice, they said things should taste like
| themselves. Meat should taste like meat, and anything you add
| only serves to intensify the existing flavors.
|
| That sounds a lot like Japanese cuisine too, so we are not alone.
| clairity wrote:
| yes, japanese cuisine can sometimes be extreme in this regard.
| it's also delicious, but only if you're being mindful of your
| eating. if you want to stuff your face, japanese is not
| necessarily going to give you good bang-for-buck. korean,
| chinese, thai, indian, etc. tend to be better at delivering
| flavor in bulk (also delicious, but differently so).
|
| i still fondly remember the home-cooked meals of my japanese
| friend's mom. simple yet exquisite.
| [deleted]
| tchalla wrote:
| > Serving richly spiced stews was no longer a status symbol for
| Europe's wealthiest families -- even the middle classes could
| afford to spice up their grub. "So the elite recoiled from the
| increasing popularity of spices," Ray says. "They moved on to an
| aesthetic theory of taste. Rather than infusing food with spice,
| they said things should taste like themselves. Meat should taste
| like meat, and anything you add only serves to intensify the
| existing flavors."
|
| One of the main points in the article.
| vixen99 wrote:
| Sounds to me like an argument presented ex post facto.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| I wonder if you can find similar cycles in, e.g., home
| furnishings? The elite get their fancy furs and rugs from
| $foreign for $$$, eventually the trade improves, prices drop,
| the poors start furnishing with fancy furs and rugs, the elite
| move towards shiny minimalism, rinse and repeat.
|
| (cf just about anything technology-wise, I suppose)
| Sharlin wrote:
| Yes, you can absolutely see that same cycle everywhere,
| especially with anything fashion-related. And there are
| several layers, where every social class tries to imitate the
| one above them and distinguish themselves from the one below.
| 4ggr0 wrote:
| So what does the person wear who's on top of the pyramid?
| Probably Birkenstocks and a hoodie...
| Sharlin wrote:
| Indeed, I meant to add that the super-elite doesn't
| really care. They don't need to signal anything.
| vram22 wrote:
| Some of them do, actually. Like with a _tiny_ crocodile
| image on a Crocodile-brand t-shirt, or I guess even
| subtler signs, at the higher end, like no brand name or
| logo at all - _but_ some way of signalling the
| (expensive) brand, to those in the know. Maybe by the
| shade of color of the garment, or the cut, or some other
| sign. But they do :) I don 't know all the ways, I don't
| move in those circles, but have read about it. Human
| nature (like to show off, among other things) runs deep.
|
| Edit: of course, some others really don't feel the need,
| being very secure in their eliteness, so they don't, as
| you say. And some others go to the opposite extreme of
| dressing down-market (so to speak), again as a signal
| that they can afford to do so.
| rcxdude wrote:
| Absolutely has happened with anything expensive that has
| gotten cheaper. Sumptuary laws are another reaction which can
| occur.
| boudin wrote:
| It does not really account for the fact that most of the
| population was peasants.
|
| I would be really surprised that spices were a big part of
| cuisine. Maybe in the middle-class indeed, but that was still a
| really small part of the population.
| Teracotage wrote:
| That is common in many other Asian countries, in Indonesia,
| some would bake fish as it is without anything, then you would
| add whatever you want when you take your cut to your plate,
| salt and other spices. It is a legitimate way of thinking about
| purity of foods and drinks I think. Coffee connoisseurs would
| not dilute the coffee with sugar nor cardamon, in the Levant
| for example.
| foobar33333 wrote:
| >Coffee connoisseurs would not dilute the coffee with sugar
|
| This seems to be a regional thing. In Australia I haven't
| actually seen anyone ever add sugar to coffee and these
| people aren't huge coffee enthusiasts. Other than premixed
| ice coffee.
| munchbunny wrote:
| I see ingredient purity as a cultural thing. Every culture
| has some version of it, especially as a form of conspicuous
| consumption. Wine, tea, and coffee immediately come to mind.
|
| Chinese people can be absolute snobs about tea, but the same
| people like bubble tea which isn't made with high quality tea
| because you wouldn't taste the difference through the milk
| and sugar. Both are delicious in their own way.
|
| Just speaking for my own diet (mostly Chinese), it's common
| to steam a fresh fish with a bit of salt, ginger, and
| scallion, and let the fish speak for itself. But the very
| next meal might be a curry or some other dish that relies
| heavily on the sauce. But then none of that carries over to
| making steak (buy high quality, cook neurotically), or making
| gumbo (get a few specific parts right but otherwise it's a
| high-tolerance dish), or making coffee.
|
| There are definitely different paradigms for food, and I
| think if someone is unable or unwilling to appreciate that,
| it's their loss.
| InfiniteRand wrote:
| It's interesting to note that my Indian wife had trouble wrapping
| her head around the concept of appreciating the meaty flavor of a
| hamburger with minimal seasoning when she first came to the
| United States
| jancsika wrote:
| MLK: I have a dream.
|
| Web page headline: How SJWs canceled white children's bathrooms
| trashtester wrote:
| "Snobbery" is an incantation We speak to get a seretonin boost in
| the presence of people or groups that cause our seretonin levels
| to drop.
|
| It is one of many tools that can be used to attack or diminish
| those who are seen to have higher status than Us.
| ska wrote:
| You've got the causation backward here. Snobbery is a tool that
| people use to assert or maintain social status, or in the
| attempt to attain it, especially at the margins (if you are
| clearly enough high status, you don't need it though you may
| choose it). Like other tools of the type (e.g. etiquette rules)
| it's main purpose is to define in-group/out-group dynamics in a
| way that is difficult to counterfeit for one reason or another.
|
| The counter pressure to this is lower social status communities
| calling it out as a negative, which has some of the flavor you
| are idiosyncratically aiming for, but can also be group
| affirming.
| gherkinnn wrote:
| What I can't stand is when cuisines that rely primarily on the
| taste of the main ingredients, say Italian, are defaced with hot
| sauce and other atrocities.
|
| The dish is completely ruined. It does not work.
| wobbly_bush wrote:
| > The dish is completely ruined. It does not work.
|
| It seems to work for those who do it. Should recipes not ever
| evolve into something different?
| sandGorgon wrote:
| if they had snobbish enough a few decades earlier, we would all
| be spared a hundred years of colonization, the Great Bengal
| Famine as well as the single most dangerous nuclear flashpoint
| that exists in the world right now.
| Ruthalas wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what nuclear disaster are you referring to?
| rich_sasha wrote:
| Hmm, reads a bit like "why Indian cuisine is much better than
| European".
|
| I love them all, no need to poo-poo one with snobbery etc.
| wobbly_bush wrote:
| I hardly got that feeling reading the article. The main point
| is called out in the middle -
|
| > "The real question, then, is why the wealthy, powerful West
| -- with unprecedented access to spices from its colonies --
| became so fixated on this singular understanding of flavor,"
| Srinivas says.
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