[HN Gopher] Lou Ottens, inventor of cassette tape, has died
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Lou Ottens, inventor of cassette tape, has died
        
       Author : Anon84
       Score  : 354 points
       Date   : 2021-03-10 11:25 UTC (11 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (netherlandsnewslive.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (netherlandsnewslive.com)
        
       | freebreakfast wrote:
       | There is a great documentary[0] about the cassette. They explore
       | its creation, history, and what it meant (and means) to people.
       | They interview Ottens extensively as part of the film.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.cassettefilm.com/
        
       | hilbert42 wrote:
       | It saddens me that Lou Ottens has died; as so often happens we
       | often only get to reflect on the lives and achievements of
       | influential people after they've died, before that we often know
       | very little about them. It's especially so for those who work in
       | technology, as their work is often hidden behind corporate
       | structures, thus they go unnoticed by the public.
       | 
       | If you'd asked me before this article appeared who Lou Ottens was
       | then I'd have replied _' I'm not sure but it rings a bell'._ As
       | an audiophile, I recall reading many articles about Philips and
       | Sony and the politics of cassette tape technology after it
       | appeared on the market. At the time Hi-Fi and electronics
       | magazines were full of articles about cassettes so my sense of
       | deja vu upon hearing his name likely came from that immersion.
       | 
       | The audio cassette played a very significant--even special--role
       | in 20th Century audio recording technology and with his passing
       | we've lost a direct link to not only cassette technology but also
       | its history.
       | 
       | In those days, one of the major thrusts of Hi-Fi was to improve
       | the signal-to-noise ratio, which, by today's standards, was
       | pretty marginal, so like many audiophiles of the day I initially
       | derided its introduction and considered it a scientific step
       | backward thinking its only practical use would be for Dictaphones
       | and other low fidelity uses. When the cassette first appeared its
       | performance was in fact only suitable for low fidelity voice,
       | thus reinforcing our perceptions. Music sounded terrible and its
       | wow and flutter (W&F) specifications were woeful, so too were its
       | noise figures, frequency response not to mention its high
       | distortion.
       | 
       | That perception soon changed because the audio cassette was
       | immensely practical compared to what was already in use--that, of
       | course, was the reel-to-reel tape recorder. And reel-to-reels
       | were very expensive for the home user to buy, especially so if
       | he/she wanted a good one that could complete with the best
       | fidelity had to offer, which for the public, was LP records.
       | Recorders such as the Tandberg models 64 and 74 met the quality
       | criteria but they were hellishly expensive (I could never afford
       | to buy a new one and it was only some years after the Model 74
       | was released that I managed to buy one second-hand).
       | 
       |  _(As I mentioned, back then achieving a good balance between the
       | best signal-to-noise ratio and minimum distortion in the analogue
       | domain was a never-ending battle and about the best one could
       | achieve was [?]60 dB at 2 to 3% THD (Total Harmonic
       | Distortion)--even for professional tape equipment such as Ampex
       | studio reel-to-reels this was a bit of a struggle and they
       | required continual tweaking (head alignment, bias level
       | adjustments, etc.) to keep them within these specs.)_
       | 
       | Nevertheless, a sort of miracle happened; as cassettes were
       | introduced in appliances such as car radios their quality
       | improved dramatically even to the extent that some people started
       | to use them to supplement their home Hi-Fi systems.
       | 
       | Eventually, at the pinnacle of its evolution, _ca_ 1982--some 19
       | years after its introduction--the audio cassette had become a
       | very capable recording medium to the extent that its audio
       | fidelity had almost rivalled professional reel-to-reel recorders.
       | This was achieved with an optimal combination of low-noise, high
       | dynamic range _[metal and similar high coercively]_ tapes
       | together with very well designed cassette recorders such as the
       | Nakamichi Dragon and Nakamichi 680. These used Dolby and other
       | noise reduction techniques, however they never made it to true
       | professional quality but it was a damn good effort just the same.
       | By the mid 1970s many a home listener was very satisfied and
       | content with fidelity available from the humble cassette.
       | 
       | Even I succumbed. In the mid 1970s I tried to get a Nakamichi 700
       | duty free when my father was visiting Asia but that failed
       | through poor logistics. Then around 1980-81 I attended a trade
       | demo arranged by the local Nakamichi agent and the draw card was
       | Mr Nakamichi himself demonstrating his company's then latest
       | product, the Nakamichi 680. Several years after that I managed to
       | buy a little-used 680 for an excellent price. The 680's fame
       | revolved around the fact that in addition to normal speed
       | recording of 1 7/8"/sec it also had a half-speed mode of
       | 15/16"/sec. At that speed and using the right high quality tape,
       | it could achieve a very respectable bandwidth of 15kHz at <=2%
       | THD with a [?]60dB S/N whilst also holding a W&F of [?]0.1-0.2%.
       | (Of course, the 680's performance at 1 7/8"/sec was considerably
       | better; its frequency response at this speed was in excess of 20
       | kHz).
       | 
       | The fact that the humble cassette had progressed this far
       | technically in only about 17 years was a remarkable achievement
       | to say the least. It reached its pinnacle several years later
       | with the Nakamichi Dragon, which has always been regarded as the
       | best cassette tape recorder ever made. Mind you, these remarkably
       | excellent audio specifications were only ever achieved on
       | machines of this caliber, most others that were considered in the
       | Hi-Fi class performed very well but never to heights of the best
       | Nakamichi machines.
       | 
       | However, keeping the Nakamichi 680 in top shape and in full spec
       | wasn't always straightforward. I broke the head azimuth alignment
       | knob and I returned it to the local agent for repair only to
       | receive it back in worse condition than I sent it. After
       | whingeing loudly that the service was substandard for a machine
       | of Nakamichi's class, the agent returned it to Japan for repair.
       | When I received it back several months later it was still not
       | performing up to standard (like most organizations, service
       | usually comes a poor second to getting product out the factory
       | door). The solution was to repair it myself which I did.
       | Fortunately--unlike these days where _service manual_ is an
       | unknown term--I had the excellent Nakamichi 680 service manual to
       | go by, so servicing it was dead easy.
       | 
       | I still have my Nakamichi 680 some 37 years later and it still
       | performs to specifications.
       | 
       | I reckon that when Lou Ottens had gotten to see cassette machines
       | of the 680 and Dragon class he must have been pretty pleased with
       | what he and his team had achieved at Philips in the early 1960s.
        
       | apples_oranges wrote:
       | "We were little boys who had fun playing."
       | 
       | I still sometimes feel like this when programming. What a great
       | job this is..
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | wdb wrote:
       | Never knew it was a Dutch invention!
        
       | gshubert17 wrote:
       | He was 94 years old. An obituary with more information is at
       | 
       | https://nypost.com/2021/03/10/cassette-tape-and-cd-inventor-...
        
       | bellyfullofbac wrote:
       | Meta commentary: huh, the site feels off, it looks like yet
       | another content farm. The author byline is "jenifferruffalo" and
       | she writes all the articles on that site?
       | 
       | OK, at the bottom of the article, it shows the site just ripped
       | and machine-translated content from Dutch, explaining the weird
       | translation of "Not really proud". It even saw the "subscribe to
       | our newsletter" box, "invalid email address" error message as
       | well as the source news site's "read our privacy policy" and
       | integrated those things into the article.
       | 
       | I guess the reason why this site exists is clear: steal content,
       | get the Google hits and AdSense money.
        
       | mertd wrote:
       | It's fascinating that someone, within their lifetime, can invent
       | something, watch it become a household item in the entire world
       | and then fade so far into obscurity that new generations only
       | find out about it from encyclopedias.
        
         | tqi wrote:
         | The increasing pace of technology is really fascinating to
         | think about, especially when comparing to something like
         | printing[1].
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_printing
        
       | faichai wrote:
       | The humble cassette was a core part of my upbringing. Creating
       | and sharing mixtapes a great way of signalling affection. I
       | treasure the few times it happened, because as a nerd with social
       | anxiety my interactions with the opposite sex developed a lot
       | later than most people. Forgive me:
       | 
       | Oh Frances, how beautiful you were,
       | 
       | Mixed Dinosaur Jr tape I did share,
       | 
       | You returned another, so eclectic,
       | 
       | My crush on you fades electric.
        
       | iso1631 wrote:
       | Age 94.
       | 
       | I'm really glad he managed to see 90.
        
       | [deleted]
        
       | smoldesu wrote:
       | I love the character of cassette tapes. They aren't my primary
       | medium for listening to music, but I'll be damned if they don't
       | sound pleasant to the ear.
        
       | niklasd wrote:
       | I once visited an art exhibition where the theme was art objects
       | that change while being displayed. Once exhibit which I
       | particularly enjoyed was a cassette that was being played, while
       | its outrolled tape was tightend around some bars in the room. So
       | the tape slowly grinded down and changed the (cryptic) sound that
       | was being played. It was a super cool idea, which also played
       | with the experience of an unwound cassette tape, that everyone
       | (who is a bit older) knows.
        
         | mumphster wrote:
         | Neat! If you're ever interested in more of that kind of stuff
         | check out Hainbach, heres a similar thing to what you described
         | with some really great background info on the technique and
         | tech https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVy9ABT5-iY
        
       | tibbydudeza wrote:
       | My youth would not have been the same - we made our own mixtapes
       | back then and the good ones were made on TDK chrome tapes.
       | 
       | This was before we had internet (it came 1991) and our local
       | radio stations back then never played funk or R&B music so one
       | night I listened on AM to an overseas station and heard this
       | awesome song and I taped it and listened to it over and over
       | despite the bad AM quality.
       | 
       | Later I found it was "When Doves Cry" by Prince and I became a
       | lifelong fan.
        
       | booblik wrote:
       | This is nuts, but apparently he doesn't even have a wiki page.
       | Someone has to rectify.
        
         | pwdisswordfish0 wrote:
         | He has an extensive article in the Dutch Wikipedia, with a
         | star, and shorter ones in German and Polish :) The Dutch one
         | seems well-cited, so it would probably be okay to just
         | translate it.
        
         | makeworld wrote:
         | He does now, but it's terribly sparse.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Ottens
        
       | sarvasana wrote:
       | Well, thanks for all the plastic waste.
        
       | KozmoNau7 wrote:
       | The cassette tape really is an astounding invention, or I guess a
       | great packaging and convenience improvement, compared to existing
       | tape formats.
       | 
       | A revolution in music portability, distribution (both licensed
       | and DIY), home recording, you name it. All kicked off by "little
       | boys who had fun playing".
       | 
       | Tape trading is still big in certain circles, especially within
       | the punk and black metal milieus. Some albums, EPs and demos get
       | their only physical releases ever on limited edition cassette
       | tapes, both because it is inexpensive, easy to DIY and fits the
       | lo-fi aesthetics.
       | 
       | Where vinyl has a strong presence among audiophiles (for various
       | mostly imagined reasons) and was always a format for those with
       | money to spend, the humble cassette tape was the format of choice
       | for the youth, the working class and people on the go, and it
       | still carries that down-to-earth appeal today.
       | 
       | I know at least for me growing up in the 80s and 90s in a family
       | with just enough money to get by, hand-me-down cassette tapes
       | were how I experienced music, not to mention how we experimented
       | with recording our voices and playing them back at different
       | speeds, and learned what happened when you play the same bit of
       | tape over and over again because it had a really funny bit on it.
       | Getting my first CD and CD player was exotic and felt like
       | science fiction in comparison to the trusty old cassette tape.
       | 
       | I keep a drawer of a few old and obsolete physical formats that
       | meant something special to me. My cassette tapes of Deep Purple
       | In Rock, Machine Head, Sgt. Pepper's, and The Triumph of Death
       | are there, next to the 3.5" floppy disks and Minidiscs.
        
         | theandrewbailey wrote:
         | > Getting my first CD and CD player was exotic and felt like
         | science fiction in comparison to the trusty old cassette tape.
         | 
         | Putting a laser into almost anything makes it feel like it's
         | from the future.
        
         | lc9er wrote:
         | Tapes were fun. I grew up playing in bands. Demos were all
         | recorded to cassette and shared among band members for
         | reference or maybe passed on to clubs. I was right at the tail
         | end of this, when CD burners became cheap and then we were
         | expected to deliver demos as a cd.
        
       | acomjean wrote:
       | I love the humility.
       | 
       | I grew up in the era of cassettes. I'd tape songs of the radio as
       | a kid. In high school and college I would tape my records and the
       | new "cds" so my music would be portable (Walkman and parents
       | car).
       | 
       | My brothers and I bought a really good Yamaha three head cassette
       | player. We did some a/b testing with cds and with Dolby c it was
       | really hard to tell the difference.
       | 
       | Though with Walkman you'd have to clean the rubber rollers when
       | they got a little gummed up and there was always the danger of
       | the tape failing and getting pulled out.
        
         | aksss wrote:
         | I think a cassette fresh out of the case was great, sound
         | quality wise on good equipment, the big complaint was the wear
         | and stretching over time. Then of course there was the eating
         | of the tape, which you could recover from usually but there was
         | usually a scar in the sound quality that you'd learn to ignore.
        
       | TonyTrapp wrote:
       | I recorded radio shows and other stuff to hundreds of compact
       | cassettes as a kid. Years later, my parents insisted on throwing
       | them all away because I didn't listen to them anyway. They'd be a
       | goldmine now. They were all chrome tapes!
        
       | gcheong wrote:
       | What's interesting to me beyond the invention itself is all the
       | technology that was developed around it. For example my friend's
       | Dad had a Nakamichi cassette player that would physically flip
       | the cassette to play the other side. And on the other end of
       | course using a pencil to advance the tape or wind up slack if it
       | accidentally got caught in the player.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | agumonkey wrote:
       | Countless memories over this 'limited' medium :)
       | 
       | ps: I don't know how much an urban legend it is, but jdilla
       | (famous in the hiphop beatmaker circles) is said to have learned
       | his very very skanky sense of rhythm through a bare tape recorder
       | that he used to overlay various samples by rewinding it with a
       | pencil.
        
       | uberdru wrote:
       | CDs were going nowhere until Dire Straits released "Brothers in
       | Arms", 13 May 1985.
        
         | tibbydudeza wrote:
         | For me it was Kate Bush "Hounds Of Love" that made me buy a
         | Sony Discman.
        
       | gjvr wrote:
       | A little anecdote/legend from the Philips Research Labs (Nat.
       | Lab.):
       | 
       | When the team demonstrated the first CD they drilled some holes
       | in them, and showed: "Look how robust, they even work when they
       | are this damaged" (paraphrased).
       | 
       | In reality the locations of these holes were chosen _very_
       | precisely. Not sure if this is true, but this is a story that my
       | colleagues told me in the 90 's...
       | 
       | Rest In Peace Lou Ottens.
        
         | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
         | This seems unlikely. CDs don't have physical sectors. But they
         | do have generous error correction, with cross-interleaved
         | versions of the data combined with parity spread out along the
         | "groove".
         | 
         | The rule of thumb is that error correction can compensate for
         | gaps of up to 2.4mm. So if a hole is smaller a CD should be
         | able to cope.
        
         | colanderman wrote:
         | At the very least, the holes would have to have been placed
         | such that the CD remained balanced I would think.
        
           | LanceH wrote:
           | A cd at music player speeds is somewhat forgiving.
        
       | clydethefrog wrote:
       | Fun stuff I read since his passing yesterday in the Dutch
       | newspapers.
       | 
       | Although he had indeed humility about his contribution to the
       | cassette tape and the CD, he also was frustrated what Sony did in
       | this department. He wanted the CD to be 11,5 cm instead of 12 cm
       | and was disappointed Sony sold the first CD and invented the
       | concept of a walkman instead of Philips.
       | 
       | His opinion about cassette tapes and vinyl having a revival
       | because of the analog experience?
       | 
       | "I am not a psychologist, but that music experience is of course
       | all nonsense. Nothing can match the sound of the CD. It is
       | absolutely noise and rumble free. That never worked with tape.
       | But who am I to say what's better, I'm over ninety and have old
       | ears. I have made a lot of record players and I know that the
       | distortion with vinyl is much higher. But some people call it
       | "warm audio." I think people mostly hear what they want to hear.
       | But there are always madmen who want to look back to the past.
       | There is always a market for that."
        
         | marshmallow_12 wrote:
         | what is the advantage of 11.5 over 12?
        
           | drcode wrote:
           | 0.5cm smaller.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | rsneekes wrote:
           | According to this [1] interview because it's approx the same
           | size as a cassette tape.
           | 
           | [1] (pdf, dutch)
           | http://docs.mfbfreaks.com/div/De_Ingenieur_Lou_Ottens.pdf
        
           | parsimo2010 wrote:
           | Philips decided on it because it would make the case closer
           | in size to cassette tapes, and they already had a factory
           | capable of producing it. I guess 12 cm would have required
           | more retooling, which would cost them some of their advantage
           | over Sony.
           | 
           | Source: https://www.classicfm.com/discover-music/why-is-a-
           | cd-74-minu...
           | 
           | "Philips engineer Kees A. Schouhamer Immink writes that
           | Philips were pushing for the CD to be close in size to the
           | cassette tape, whereas Sony were pushing for a slightly
           | larger 12cm disc, partially because they knew that Philips
           | already had a factory capable of producing 11.5cm CDs and if
           | they could decide on 12cm as the industry standard then they
           | would erase Philips' head start in manufacturing."
        
             | marshmallow_12 wrote:
             | Interesting that the universal standard was created for
             | such a petty reason. I was hoping to hear that there was
             | some subtle but huge difference in 0.5cm. But no, it's just
             | to screw Philips over, and we all have to play along.
        
               | parsimo2010 wrote:
               | It's not like Sony and Philips are friends. They're
               | competitors. And the reason Philips wanted 11.5 cm is
               | because it gave _them_ an advantage, aka just to screw
               | Sony over. This is normal business, not some moral
               | failing.
        
               | rowanG077 wrote:
               | Actually it is a moral failing. All that equipment had to
               | be end of lifed earlier and much more work had to be put
               | in. More garbage, more wasted energy. I can't see how
               | that is anything but a moral failing.
        
               | rexpop wrote:
               | I agree, and am glad you recognize it as such. When Sony
               | erased Philips' "head-start", they obsoleted an
               | investment made with the finite endowment of global
               | resources (not to mention _time_ ). It's an underhanded
               | tactic which disadvantages everyone to advantage a few.
        
               | aksss wrote:
               | I, for one, appreciate the additional 2MB of storage that
               | gave us. /s
        
               | TedDoesntTalk wrote:
               | I wonder how many more minutes of audio 0.5 cm gets us?
        
             | ChuckMcM wrote:
             | See also JVC's "VHS" vs Sony's "BetaMax". It is the way of
             | standards warfare.
             | 
             | It definitely annoyed me that media cabinets that held an
             | even number of cassette tape drawers "across" would not fit
             | an integral number of CD drawers.
        
               | rexpop wrote:
               | > It is the way of standards warfare.
               | 
               | Is it _the_ way, or merely _a_ way, and only _the_ way so
               | far in our brief history? I hate to see defeatism around
               | gross inefficiencies like these.
        
           | the-dude wrote:
           | Timmer, the Philips CEO at the time, is on record [0] saying
           | it had to do with the max recording length.
           | 
           | He claims Sony's CEO liked one particular recording of
           | Beethoven's 9th so much, he insisted it had to fit on a CD.
           | And this particular recording was 74mins, 33 seconds.
           | 
           | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kytmE4mrXWM, Dutch
           | 
           | edit: It was not Timmer, but Kees Immink and Hans Mons @ 8:25
        
             | dn3500 wrote:
             | Immink says the myth is that Sony exec Ohga's wife insisted
             | on the 74 minute length, based on a very slow performance
             | of Beethoven 9, which normally isn't that long. But he also
             | says it's not true. This is in his classic paper on the
             | history of the CD.
             | 
             | https://www.researchgate.net/publication/322951358_Shannon_
             | B...
        
         | duxup wrote:
         | IIRC I recall the lack of 'warm tones' on early CDs was due to
         | the technique they used with early CDs to transfer the audio
         | from tape to the CD.
         | 
         | I know my old CDs very much had a weird sorta cold, almost
         | distant sound and I felt that later CDs did not.
        
         | coldtea wrote:
         | Well, vinyl is indeed "warmer audio" in a sense, in that it is
         | more compressed and has higher saturation (due to the format
         | properties), both of which can sound naturally pleasant. (It's
         | also more tactile, which adds to the warmness psychologically).
         | 
         | CDs didn't have that great dynamic range or noise floor anyway
         | (they were copied from -usually- 2inch master tapes, so tapes
         | were still involved, and thus noise). 24bit/48 or 96Hz, on the
         | other hand, now we're talking (but still most people wouldn't
         | hear much of a difference in most mixed music, and in the
         | majority of cheap headphones/speakers).
        
         | lc9er wrote:
         | > That never worked with tape.
         | 
         | 80's thrash metal and tapes go together really well. The
         | cutting, trebly sound of tapes really works with the staccato,
         | percussive sounds of bands like Slayer, Megadeth, Metallica,
         | etc.
         | 
         | There's been a resurgence of bands putting out limited runs on
         | cassette. I think a lot of this is nostalgia (often from people
         | too young for much exposure to tape). Cassette sound quality is
         | definitely inferior, but that can be adopted as part of the
         | overall sound.
        
           | rowanG077 wrote:
           | Or you Just add that sound in the mix yourself...
        
           | vanderZwan wrote:
           | There's also lo-fi hip hop, where adding bad radio, tape or
           | vinyl static to songs is basically a given (as the name kind
           | of implies I guess).
           | 
           | I think it makes a kind of sense, in the same way white noise
           | can be soothing
        
             | Cthulhu_ wrote:
             | lo-fi basement dweller black metal is another one, I mean
             | feast your ears on
             | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oFnjWS4cpU. Ironically,
             | that album has been released on everything; cassettes,
             | FLAC, 4 lp wooden box set, and a wooden USB stick with
             | 128kbit MP3. The medium is part of the art?
             | 
             | Anyway, taste aside I can appreciate this particular artist
             | and their work, it's a lot of midrange noise but the
             | musical elements (mostly percussion tbh) emerge from the
             | swamp with a good listen.
        
               | arp242 wrote:
               | A very long time ago some of the Darkthrone tracks I
               | downloaded from Napster were corrupted and had
               | glitches/noise in them. I didn't know they were glitches,
               | and I listened to this for years and thought it sounded
               | great. I actually regret not having those "damaged" MP3s
               | any more.
               | 
               | 60s-era blues is another good example. The recording
               | equipment at the time certainly wasn't bad, but it was
               | not yet perfected. It added a certain sound to recordings
               | from the time that I kind of miss in later recordings.
        
               | jasonjayr wrote:
               | Way back when mp3 encoders weren't very good, I could
               | hear some of the compression artifacts that were common
               | in the commonly used reference encoder.
               | 
               | I pointed out that sound to someone who thought it was
               | part of the song and forever cursed them with also
               | hearing them everywhere. It's like learning about kerning
               | ...
        
               | Stratoscope wrote:
               | Or leaming about keming...
               | 
               | You may enjoy these pieces a local ceramic artist made
               | for me:
               | 
               | https://geary.smugmug.com/Art/i-qCBqjqb
        
               | c5karl wrote:
               | Compact Disc audio is uncompressed.
        
           | gavinmckenzie wrote:
           | To me this is analogous to the incredibly common practice of
           | applying scanned grain from 16mm or 35mm film stock in
           | digital cinematography workflows, making the result "feel"
           | more like film -- or our expectations and perceptions of
           | cinema. Sometimes high fidelity media isn't what we really
           | want.
        
             | dn3500 wrote:
             | Meanwhile digitization of actual film is manipulated to
             | make it look more like digital cinema, with the grain and
             | scratches removed, interpolated to 60 fps with jitter and
             | shake suppressed.
        
           | spaetzleesser wrote:
           | Wouldn't you be able to get the same effect by applying some
           | digital filter to the music? Same goes for warmer sound some
           | people claim for analog amplifiers. I would think you should
           | be able to tune your digital devices to produce the same
           | sound.
        
             | hcarvalhoalves wrote:
             | In theory you could compress and add some flutter. [1]
             | 
             | The problem is, you don't have access to the master - if
             | you try to apply this filter _on top_ of a final mix
             | destined for CD /digital, it won't sound the same as tape,
             | and will deteriorate the signal even more. That's why some
             | bands still release on cassete, you actually need to mix w/
             | tape in mind.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZS34GN4UHpQ&ab_channel=
             | MrAud...
        
             | ayyy wrote:
             | That's how lo-fi gets produced.
             | 
             | This is one of the more popular tools for that job: https:/
             | /www.xlnaudio.com/products/addictive_fx/effect/rc-20_...
        
         | excitom wrote:
         | Whenever I hear people talk about the superior sound quality of
         | vinyl my response is "Yeah, there's nothing quite like the
         | sound of a rock being dragged over bumpy plastic!"
        
         | VMG wrote:
         | I would slightly disagree with him about CDs: there are some
         | annoying high-frequency noises from a typical CD drive motor.
         | 
         | Higher-end ones probably have some buffering.
        
           | rbanffy wrote:
           | You can always mimic the sound you'd get from analog media
           | using a CD the same way you can emulate a CRT using a modern
           | HDR high-resolution display with fidelity well beyond our
           | ability to differentiate them. With a high-end GPU we can do
           | CRT emulation in real time.
        
             | vanderZwan wrote:
             | That's not what the person you're replying to is talking
             | about though - they're stating that the _motor_ that spins
             | the disc is causing interference in the signal.
             | 
             | (I have a hard time imagining that it's worse than the
             | electric motors used to drive vinyls or cassette tapes, but
             | if it's there it's there I suppose)
        
       | thinkingkong wrote:
       | Also the inventor of the CD. I wonder what else he built that is
       | sitting in a stack of papers somewhere.
        
         | rob74 wrote:
         | Not to underestimate Mr. Ottens' contribution, but as the
         | article notes, he was the "head of product development at the
         | Belgian Hasselt branch of the Eindhoven company Philips" - so I
         | guess he didn't single-handedly invent both the Compact
         | Cassette (as it was called initially) and the Compact Disc, I
         | think it was more of a group effort under his leadership...
        
           | clydethefrog wrote:
           | Yes, it's a bit like a Steve Jobs situation.
           | 
           | In a Dutch eulogy I read yesterday it has the anecdote of him
           | showing a wooden block that would fit in the inside pocket of
           | his jacket and decided for the team: this is how small the
           | music cassette should be. He also quickly negotiated with
           | Sony when they started to copy the design to make Philips'
           | design the universal standard.
           | 
           | Edit: Found this quote in Cassette: A Documentary Mixtape
           | (2016): "You can credit me with a few ideas. But the
           | designers developed the device. I haven't done anything
           | special. "
        
             | aksss wrote:
             | But did he walk around the office eating pretentious fruit?
             | 
             | https://youtu.be/E3s-qZsjK8I
        
           | Triv888 wrote:
           | The leader gets more credits because he often gives
           | direction.
        
           | lordnacho wrote:
           | It's normal to credit leaders with the team's effort though.
           | Just about anything is a team effort, but credited to the
           | leader, at least for public announcements.
        
       | mmmBacon wrote:
       | I thank Lou for his contributions. Cassette mixtapes were a huge
       | part of teen life in the 80s.
       | 
       | I fondly remember the mix tape. Exchanging mix tapes was a huge
       | part of both my friendships and romantic interests. Spent many
       | hours creating them as well as my own jacket art (while the tapes
       | were recording).
        
         | drawkbox wrote:
         | Now the mixtape is a playlist. The art and writing the list is
         | missing though, might be a product there.
        
       | macksd wrote:
       | I hope we all appreciate the "hackability" of cassette tapes.
       | Even as a young kid I was able to use the family Hi-Fi to record
       | my own cassettes where I could mix together sounds from a
       | microphone, vinyl, CDs, the radio, etc. Literally any signal I
       | could send through the stereo jack. I often think of one of my
       | first programming books detailing how to save your BASIC programs
       | to a cassette tape - though our family computer had no such
       | attachment.
       | 
       | I don't have quite the same memories from my later days of MP3s
       | and ripping / burning CDs.
       | 
       | edit: I've noticed hexagonal pencils seem to be less common than
       | circular ones now, and I can't help but feel it's because they
       | just aren't as useful anymore.
        
         | rorykoehler wrote:
         | I do have the same memories from digital times. Got the same
         | pleasure on my computer. Reason, soundforge, dance ejay etc
         | 
         | Love the cassette though. Still use it to apply warmth to audio
         | to mix back in with my digital productions.
        
           | macksd wrote:
           | I suppose my family was equipped ahead of it's time in 1990.
           | By 2000 I think we had perhaps fallen behind :)
        
             | rorykoehler wrote:
             | My Dad was a consumer audio technology enthusiast at the
             | time so we always had the latest (CD then minidisc). There
             | was a weird doldrums period between the release of the CD
             | and Napster (iPod even) for creating and sharing music and
             | mixtapes. It seemed that we would be stuck in a perpetual
             | 5-10 year new technology release cycle. Cassette tape
             | remained the best way to share music as CD burners were not
             | readily available and hardly anyone used minidisc.
        
               | DocTomoe wrote:
               | Not to forget: copying anything to minidisc was slow(!)
               | 
               | In the end, the final nail in the coffin of more
               | mechanical storage of audio was rights protection and
               | management, which is what killed R-DAT.
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | Analog copying, those were the days. Specifically, the
               | days of not being able to use my computer _or_ my
               | minidisc player for a solid hour, lest stray noises from
               | apps or excess CPU usage goof up the audio going from one
               | to the other. And then there was the separate joy of
               | twiddling the little wired remote to title the newly
               | written tracks...
               | 
               | NetMD solved this, allowing for digital copying and
               | titling via USB, but it came along so late (2001) as to
               | make no meaningful difference - especially in the face of
               | the iPod, which had its advent in the same year.
        
         | munificent wrote:
         | Another kind of hackability: There is a whole little music
         | genre called "tape loops" where people make music by cutting
         | open cassettes and taping the ends of the tape to make infinite
         | loops. You record onto a few of those of different lengths,
         | play them back in parallel and get neat rhythmic effects as the
         | loops go in and out of phase with each other.
         | 
         | AMULETS is a good example of a musician making songs like this:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVon_9VmMEc
         | 
         | The r/tapeloops subreddit is a nice little community for it.
        
         | yread wrote:
         | It was even more fun to do digitally on a minidisc. Editing
         | sound on a box 5x5cm
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | Yeah, the main shift from cassettes to copying CD's to
         | downloading MP3's to where I am now, Spotify, has been one of
         | quantity.
         | 
         | I had a few tapes, often re-recording over them with whatever
         | CD my brother bought (he paid money for them, the fool!). Later
         | on I had a stack of burned CDs that I accumulated over the
         | years, once again mostly copied from my brother; during my
         | paper rounds I would flip between the handful of CD's I had.
         | 
         | Then I got an iPod Mini and permanent internet, and my daily
         | listening habits broadened a bit.
         | 
         | And I listen to the most and broadest range of music ever
         | thanks to Spotify. Mind you, its algorithms do tend to steer me
         | to the same things regularly. At least when I had all of my
         | music in itunes I would know what I had and liked better.
        
           | macksd wrote:
           | Oh for sure. I'm don't think I'd want to give up today
           | situation. The ability to discover new music, get so much of
           | it on demand, podcasts, etc. Just wonderful. I suppose I just
           | appreciate, as a hacker, the very flexible abstraction of
           | being able to take anything through the stereo cord, and
           | record it with the play, pause, rewind, and record buttons. I
           | was able to do so much as a 7-year-old. It seemed more
           | complicated to learn digital sound editing software, CDs
           | weren't always so rewritable, etc.
        
       | bjarneh wrote:
       | > But some people call it "warm audio."
       | 
       | This just reminded me of that comic strip with the hipster
       | collecting vinyl, being asked why.                   It was the
       | high price + the inconvenience that attracted me
       | 
       | Cover-art is obviously cooler; since it's bigger. But other than
       | that vinyl is such a strange "fashion".
        
         | dang wrote:
         | We detached this subthread from
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26410982.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | HideousKojima wrote:
         | One advantage vinyl has is that it is often mastered better.
         | Music mastered for CDs often has a much lower dynamic range
         | because otherwise it would be impossible to listen to over the
         | sound of the road etc. in a car.
         | 
         | The obvious answer for this is to release a different mastering
         | in a digital format, but that's not cool and hipstery enough so
         | instead vinyl made a comeback.
        
           | mattr47 wrote:
           | What about when CD first came out?
           | 
           | Players were first made for the home, and while the first CD
           | player for automobiles was introduced in 1984, it was not
           | until mid to late 90s that they became mainstream.
        
           | bjarneh wrote:
           | > but that's not cool and hipstery enough
           | 
           | That can be a problem sometimes :-)
        
           | ra wrote:
           | Yes - it's not the format, and certainly not about audio
           | fidelity.
           | 
           | Vinyl represents the analog that CDs replaced... it
           | represents a tactical, physical romantic "thing" that has
           | since been superseded.
        
           | timw4mail wrote:
           | Ironic, too, given CDs have a larger dynamic range than
           | records.
        
             | mikepurvis wrote:
             | Hence the "Turn me up!" campaign, though it's hard to say
             | how much of a difference it has made.
        
           | mosselman wrote:
           | > otherwise it would be impossible to listen to over the
           | sound of the road etc. in a car.
           | 
           | Do you have a source for the claim that CDs are mixed with
           | audibility in cars as a priority? Because, to be honest, it
           | sounds like bullshit, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
        
             | mikepurvis wrote:
             | I have an in-law who has a Pro Tools setup and does
             | professional mastering, and they absolutely have filters
             | for "what this will sound like in a 2003 Corolla with the
             | stock sound." I don't know how much that kind of thing
             | shapes the actual decision making process, but it's
             | absolutely considered (and it's almost certainly considered
             | all the more for FM/satellite radio broadcasts where in-car
             | listening is expected to be the bulk of the audience).
             | 
             | Also relevant is Lars Ulrich's famous quote defending the
             | disastrous state of _Death Magnetic_ , exposed in part
             | because of how much better the tracks sounded in their
             | Guitar Hero versions:
             | 
             | "Listen, there's nothing up with the audio quality. It's
             | 2008, and that's how we make records. [Producer] Rick
             | Rubin's whole thing is to try and get it to sound lively,
             | to get it to sound loud, to get it to sound exciting, to
             | get it to jump out of the speakers. Of course, I've heard
             | that there are a few people complaining. But I've been
             | listening to it the last couple of days in my car, and it
             | sounds fuckin' smokin'."
        
             | kasabali wrote:
             | search for "loudness war"
        
               | fyolnish wrote:
               | The loudness war was not about making music audible over
               | road noise
        
               | kasabali wrote:
               | I didn't say it was for "road noise". Car stereos was one
               | of the popular places for listening CDs at the height of
               | loudness war.
               | 
               | > So the recording and mastering engineers began to
               | produce recordings with limited dynamic range that would
               | sound "better" on iPods and car stereos that are used in
               | areas with more ambient noise than a quiet listening
               | room. [1]
               | 
               | > Today, many people listen to music primarily in the car
               | or other noisy places, where louder music cuts through
               | against the background noise. Record companies,
               | especially today, tend to cater to this market of casual,
               | "on-the-go" listeners and make heavy use of compression
               | and limiting in order to make their album louder. [2]
               | 
               | [1]
               | https://sites.google.com/site/dbremaster/home/-loudness-
               | war-...
               | 
               | [2] https://www.grin.com/document/206816
        
               | InitialLastName wrote:
               | The loudness war was more about mastering for radio; in a
               | world where all listeners are fleeting, you do everything
               | you can to keep them, including making the music as loud
               | as you can fit in your channel.
        
               | abhinav22 wrote:
               | That's unrelated to vinyl vs cds
        
               | danhor wrote:
               | Not for the reason GP mentioned, but you can increase the
               | loudness much more on CDs than on vinyl, since on vinyl
               | the needle physically jumps out if the loudness is
               | constantly high, so it needs to be mastered with more
               | dynamic range. There is also the thing that the high
               | bitrate/high sampling rate masterings sound much better
               | in that regard, since they target a different audience
        
               | kasabali wrote:
               | Sure, if you deliberately refuse to interpret the
               | context.
               | 
               | Vinyl releases have a different target market and are
               | mastered with more fidelity in mind, while CD releases
               | are mainstream, and have been mastered with small dynamic
               | range for decades because of the loudness war.
               | 
               | I'm surprised I had to spell this out explicitly.
               | 
               | https://www.yoursoundmatters.com/vinyl-vs-cd-in-the-
               | loudness...
        
             | ericwood wrote:
             | Listening back to mixes over a car stereo system is a
             | pretty common practice, but that's more for making sure a
             | mix translates to common listening scenarios and less to do
             | with road noise.
        
             | JKCalhoun wrote:
             | Sounds like OP was describing _compression_. And there has
             | been a trend toward dialing up the compression -- but I
             | thought it was to make the tracks  "louder", stand out. I
             | had not heard any car connection.
        
         | Alex3917 wrote:
         | > But other than that vinyl is such a strange "fashion".
         | 
         | The problem is that a lot of music that was originally recorded
         | on vinyl was either never remastered for modern audio
         | equipment, or else has been remastered in a way that makes it
         | even worse than the original version. E.g. a lot of the early
         | Beatles stuff is pretty painful to listen to using even just
         | basic earbuds, and I can only imagine that it would be even
         | worse using good headphones.
         | 
         | And I say this as someone who isn't an audiophile, owns no
         | vinyl, and isn't even especially into music.
        
           | [deleted]
        
         | klingon78 wrote:
         | Cassettes have good bass and midrange. Vinyl is great and more
         | defined. CDs have too much treble and anything digital can't
         | really produce the same waveforms exactly.
        
           | sramsay wrote:
           | Saying "CDs have too much treble" is like saying "books have
           | too many adjectives."
           | 
           | And no, for millionth time. Per the Nyquist theorem, the
           | waveform being generated is _identical_ -- the same, without
           | any difference whatsoever -- when the sample rate is twice
           | the frequency being reproduced. Which it is, because the
           | sample rate of a CD is more than twice the theoretical upper
           | range of human hearing.
           | 
           | You can talk about aliasing if you like. I see some people in
           | the thread with super-human hearing can detect the buzz of CD
           | drive motors. But this "digital is not as good because it's
           | discrete and audio is continuous" is complete nonsense.
           | 
           | If you are thinking that the "digital waveforms" (?) coming
           | out of your speakers don't sound as good because they're not
           | continuous, or "choppy," or missing information . . . you're
           | really not making any sense at all.
        
             | dang wrote:
             | Please omit swipes like "for millionth time" and "you're
             | really not making any sense at all" from comments here,
             | regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are.
             | 
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        
             | klingon78 wrote:
             | See: Analog vs Digital[1].
             | 
             | I said there were differences. A lot of people putting
             | words into my mouth.
             | 
             | I was actually alive and aware listening to pre-1980s
             | vinyls, 8-tracks, cassettes, CDs, etc. unlike some of you.
             | CDs added additional frequencies into the high range, which
             | people thought sounded crisp and new, but it never had the
             | warmth of cassettes and vinyl.
             | 
             | The waveform thing is true but I never said that it was the
             | reason for the difference in warmth.
             | 
             | [1]- https://innersense-inc.com/analog-versus-digital/
        
               | ratww wrote:
               | _> CDs added additional frequencies into the high range_
               | 
               | CDs didn't add anything. The treble was always there, or
               | was added in mixing/mastering for creative reasons. Vinyl
               | and Cassete simply didn't or couldn't reproduce those
               | frequencies.
               | 
               | You could, of course, remove the frequencies on CD to
               | match Vinyl or Cassette, but they were kept (or even
               | added) in CD for artistic reasons.
        
               | sramsay wrote:
               | Right. I was actually alive too. What we're trying to
               | tell you, is that the kind of explanation offered in that
               | article is absolute bullshit. It's common! People make
               | this kind of argument all the time. It's still wrong, for
               | the reasons eloquently outlined in the replies.
               | 
               | I think the thing that trips people up is that they think
               | that a digital _process_ can somehow fail to make
               | something happen _to an analogue speaker cone_ that an
               | analog process can do effortlessly _because of the nature
               | of the process_ (or the medium). It 's not true.
               | 
               | Do you like vinyl better? Or CDs better? Or reel-to-reel
               | tape? You'll get no argument from me, because "better" is
               | a pretty subjective thing. But the following propositions
               | are absurd:
               | 
               | 1. Vinyl has "higher fidelity" than CDs. 2. CDs "add
               | treble" to recordings. 3. Digital processes can never
               | accurately reproduce analog phenomena. 4. Analog "warmth"
               | is only achievable with analog equipment. 5. No one ever
               | over-compressed their tracks until CDs (or Pro Tools, or
               | DAT tapes, or whatever) came along, and so these things
               | are to blame.
               | 
               | I could go on.
               | 
               | I'm not accusing you of having said all of these things;
               | they're just examples of things are absolutely not true,
               | but which get said all the time, and which start to seem
               | like truth because everyone is nodding.
        
               | NobodyNada wrote:
               | > CDs added additional frequencies into the high range,
               | which people thought sounded crisp and new, but it never
               | had the warmth of cassettes and vinyl.
               | 
               | Sure, there _is_ an audible difference between digital
               | audio and vintage analog equipment -- but it has nothing
               | to do with quality problems in digital audio. In fact,
               | it's exactly the opposite: vinyl and cassettes deliver
               | low-quality, heavily distorted audio (with a dynamic
               | range equivalent to that of 5 or 6 bit digital audio).
               | This does create a distinctive "warm" tone, and a lot of
               | people really like the sound (or the nostalgia) created
               | by this distortion.
               | 
               | The article you linked does _not_ demonstrate quality
               | problems with digital audio; it is a bunch of nonsense
               | intended to sell a product.
               | 
               | First of all, it compares a "digital square wave" with an
               | "analog sine wave", and remarks that "the digital signal
               | does not follow the smooth flow of its analog
               | compliment." Of course they look different, they're not
               | the same wave! A square wave is "supposed" to look
               | blocky, it's not a digital vs. analog thing.
               | 
               | At least it _mentions_ the Shannon-Nyquist theorem and
               | gets one thing right: "there is no difference whatsoever
               | between an analog sine wave and a digital one"
               | 
               | But then it totally blows it again with its comparison of
               | a "digital" square wave to a "natural" one, observing
               | that the "natural" square wave is more curved.
               | 
               | Again, this is nonsense because you're not comparing the
               | same wave! The "digital" image is of an ideal,
               | mathematically pure square wave, whereas the "natural"
               | image is bandlimited. The first mathematically pure wave
               | cannot exist in the real world, because it would require
               | infinite bandwidth -- the voltage would have to change
               | instantly.
               | 
               | In fact, a digital signal _is_ bandlimited; it's just a
               | bad illustration. The digital square wave, when converted
               | to analog, will not include any frequencies above half
               | the sampling rate, making it match whatever our
               | bandlimited analog signal is supposed to look like.
               | 
               | Then the article goes into full-on snake oil mode, trying
               | to convince you that "technology that resolves that
               | problem, by creating infinite phase, is currently
               | available" if only you buy their "Sensorium(tm) LSV III
               | Function Generators and Altitudinal Oscillators [that]
               | utilize a polynomial transition region algorithm". This
               | is very much nonsense; by the Nyquist-Shannon sampling
               | theorem, you can reproduce a bandlimited waveform
               | _exactly_ from a sampled signal, no matter how "complex"
               | your waveform is.
               | 
               | For a more detailed overview about how and why digital
               | audio works, I recommend this video:
               | https://xiph.org/video/vid2.shtml
        
               | sramsay wrote:
               | > Then the article goes into full-on snake oil mode,
               | trying to convince you that "technology that resolves
               | that problem, by creating infinite phase, is currently
               | available" if only you buy their "Sensorium(tm) LSV III
               | Function Generators and Altitudinal Oscillators [that]
               | utilize a polynomial transition region algorithm".
               | 
               | Definitely my favorite part. It's complete gibberish, but
               | because it uses audio nerd words (phase, oscillator,
               | function generator) it sounds like it might not be.
        
             | jillesvangurp wrote:
             | Even just getting a decent DAC can make a lot of
             | difference. There's a difference between playing a CD on a
             | decent setup or a cheap portable player with 5$ headphones,
             | shitty cheap DAC and sloppy electronics. With the right
             | software, you can even emulate a lot of distortion and
             | warmth of analog equipment even. Some more expensive
             | consumer grade hardware (Bose is a good example) takes a
             | lot of liberty with processing the sound that gets send to
             | the speakers.
             | 
             | It's basically the same as iphone owners claiming their
             | cameras are better because they get such nice crisp
             | colorful photos. Which depends on roughly the same kind of
             | lossy algorithms that electronics manufacturers use to make
             | cheap hardware sound awesome. Compress, filter, boost, etc.
             | It's a lossy process. It's intentionally losing recorded
             | detail for the effect. The audio equivalent would be the
             | wall of sound type sound associated with 1980s pop music.
             | Sounds great on a cheap brand walkman ripoff (went through
             | several in the 80s).
             | 
             | CD recordings have historically been optimized for cheap
             | equipment and FM radio. The storage medium is not the
             | problem: the sound is intentionally compromised when the
             | master is created already. That's why remastered recordings
             | are a big deal these days and also why a lot of LPs sound
             | better (different master, generally better equipment used
             | for playback). Same recording, but a better masters
             | optimized for different purposes. One sounds better than
             | the other but people get confused about why that is.
        
               | wheels wrote:
               | > _the wall of sound type sound associated with 1980s pop
               | music_
               | 
               | "Wall of Sound" recordings are primarily from the 1960s.
               | "Pet Sounds" by The Beach Boys is the quintessential
               | recording in the style.
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall_of_Sound
        
           | hluska wrote:
           | Pure analogue recording studios are in the minority and by
           | the time you expand your search to pressing plants, the vast
           | majority of vinyl has been digital before it hits our ears.
           | 
           | (I belong to the vinyl cult too and badly want to believe
           | what you're saying.)
        
             | klingon78 wrote:
             | What I said was true. Whether it was digital or not can be
             | a subtle difference.
             | 
             | I never said that vinyl is only analog or that that is the
             | reason for the difference in sound between vinyl and other
             | formats, because it's not.
             | 
             | The "warmth" is cassettes and more so with better balance
             | in vinyl is known. Digital didn't kill music quality; it
             | did affect waveforms, but that's not the reason for vinyl
             | sounding better to most.
             | 
             | Of course, there are many more reasons that music sounds
             | better or worse.
        
               | hluska wrote:
               | I wonder if we're really getting into mechanical
               | differences between turntables? It's hard to talk in
               | terms of sound but you sound like a lot of fun. If you're
               | ever in or around Regina, Canada let me know. I have two
               | Technics 1200s that I've modified heavily. If you'd like,
               | I can show you some cool stuff with three tonearms (the
               | stock 1200 tonearm, a straight tonearm that will tell you
               | precisely when I went to raves and a tonearm that is
               | engineered for better sound. You'll hear the difference
               | right away. Then I can show you some differences between
               | cartridges, proper cartridge alignment (a fraction of a
               | degree makes a huge difference) and even styluses.
               | 
               | One downside of the proliferation of turntables is that
               | most don't work with shit. It's been happening since
               | everyone was a DJ and is still happening now!!! :)
        
           | bch wrote:
           | Let Monty Montgomery of xiph.org provide an illuminating tear
           | down of "digital can't really produce...":
           | https://youtu.be/cIQ9IXSUzuM
           | 
           | Edit: fix auto-incorrected xiph.org domain
        
           | jankeymeulen wrote:
           | Nyquist and Shannon disagree with you.
        
         | vharuck wrote:
         | I can understand it from a "wabi sabi" point of view, where the
         | imperfections are part of the appeal.
         | 
         | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi
        
         | hluska wrote:
         | (This is purely anecdata.)
         | 
         | I love music so pay a lot of attention to stuff like speakers.
         | One thing I notice is that when people get into vinyl, they get
         | into the overall experience of listening to music. They spend a
         | little more on speakers, align them with music in mind and
         | start sitting down and listening to music. Digital is so easy
         | that it's background noise when we're driving, working and
         | living. Vinyl takes more work and in my experience, that work
         | leads to an enhanced experience. It's not surprising people
         | call it 'warm'.
        
           | JKCalhoun wrote:
           | Also anecdotal:
           | 
           | After switching my entire collection over to CD, one of the
           | bands I later got into, only as a "CD band" were The Muffs
           | (R.I.P., Kim).
           | 
           | Years later, seeing their albums that I loved so much
           | released on vinyl, I thought, why not? The instant I put the
           | needle down I knew there was magic in vinyl that I had traded
           | for convenience years ago. It sounded that much better.
           | 
           | The significance for me was that this was a band I knew
           | digitally before I ever heard analog. Somehow, going that
           | direction, and enjoying the vinyl better convinced me there
           | was something there.
           | 
           | Explain away. I am happy when I put on my records.
        
             | roywiggins wrote:
             | The usual explanation is that CDs during the early years of
             | the format were badly mastered in the first place.
             | 
             | So perhaps the LP you prefer was just remastered
             | competently.
        
             | hluska wrote:
             | Ugh, Kim Shattuck. :( Fuck ALS.
             | 
             | I belong to the vinyl cult too. Pre-Dirty Sonic Youth, pre-
             | Warner REM and first English pressings of Factory Records
             | music make me happy too.
             | 
             | I don't think there's anything to explain. Music is a
             | beautiful ritual. Some of us participate in the ritual and
             | others like background noise.
        
             | ratww wrote:
             | Mastering on Vinyl is almost always less compressed, and
             | sounds more natural due to natural limitations of the
             | medium. This sounds especially better (IMO) when you turn
             | up the volume.
             | 
             | Of course, it's entirely possible to master like that on
             | CD, MP3, etc but nobody does it.
        
               | cammikebrown wrote:
               | Exactly. I have so many late 70s/early 80s stuff made in
               | the early days of digital that sound so gross on CD, and
               | are just amazing on vinyl. I know the mastering could be
               | done way better on CD, but especially with the loudness
               | wars now it never does.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | For a lot of people (including myself), digital has
           | essentially become radio. Most of the time I just listen to
           | playlists of various sorts and, mostly, not even ones I've
           | curated myself. I haven't done any meaningful rating and
           | curating of my music lists in years.
        
         | leokennis wrote:
         | For those looking for the comic:
         | 
         | https://i.imgur.com/Pt0Ze2s.jpg
        
           | bjarneh wrote:
           | Thanks; I didn't remember it correctly I see :-)
        
         | slicktux wrote:
         | Cringe worthy scenario is when someone plays vinyl for the
         | "warm sound" but uses Bluetooth speakers...hence digitizing the
         | sound with an ADC
        
           | JKCalhoun wrote:
           | Oh, kids, I play through a tube amplifier I built myself,
           | then full-range speakers (also built myself).
           | 
           | (Sub is solid state - oof.)
        
           | catblast01 wrote:
           | Why? Bluetooth isn't perfect but it the fidelity is not so
           | poor as to reverse the "warmth" of the analog distortion, and
           | even a cheap ADC won't either... it should reproduce it
           | pretty well.
           | 
           | What people get wrapped up in cognitive dissonance is that
           | they equate "pleasing" with hi fidelity... but anything
           | likeable about vinyl is because it is low fidelity -- but if
           | you tell certain people this they take it as a pretty
           | personal attack. Anyway, a decent digital signal chain should
           | reproduce this low fidelity pretty well including high
           | bitrate SBC.
        
             | slicktux wrote:
             | I agree with your statement; to give my initial comment
             | some context I was poking fun at the 'audiophiles' that
             | prefer vinyl for its analog characteristics but then
             | unknowingly digitize it by using, for example, a Bluetooth
             | speaker... I'm in no way an audiophile and if I want
             | quality sound than WAV or FLAC is fine...but that's just
             | for certain albums ;)
        
         | the_local_host wrote:
         | I suspect that for people who like vinyl, the experience of
         | music isn't just about the sound. Putting on a record, as a
         | ceremony, just seems more appealing than menu-diving down to a
         | playlist on your phone.
        
           | cromka wrote:
           | Agreed, and I'd say it is exactly the same phenomenon as when
           | people prefer print books over e-readers.
        
           | augusto-moura wrote:
           | Yes, a similar converging discussion is physical vs digital
           | media games, with enough time both storage and internet
           | connections will reach a point where digital will be light
           | years more practical than physical discs (or cartridges,
           | anyone remember those?), but the feeling of having a hard
           | copy and all the ceremonies involved about playing a game
           | gives a so much richer experience for me. Is just like
           | prepping popcorn and getting comfy for a movie session at
           | home, you can always just play a movie at your laptop, but
           | sometimes you just want to get 100% into it
        
           | uberdru wrote:
           | It's true. An LP defines a concrete slice of time, defined by
           | decisions made by the artists and the producers. That work
           | and craft is different from the playlist creator. Also, the
           | management of a record collection takes attention and
           | patience. A record collection itself is a type of identity
           | repo, a lot like Walter Benjamin's library, e.g. I will argue
           | that CD's cannot capture a certain plangent timbre, though
           | I've never found any research to back that up (hard as I have
           | tried).
        
       | niea_11 wrote:
       | An interview with him from 2013 :
       | https://www.theregister.com/2013/09/02/compact_cassette_supr...
        
         | TheOtherHobbes wrote:
         | That's a great interview. You really get the sense he saw the
         | engineering as a way to optimise the user experience. He wasn't
         | just trying to put some tape in a tiny box for the sake of it.
        
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