[HN Gopher] Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and O...
___________________________________________________________________
Comparison of Postsurgical Scars Between Vegan and Omnivore
Patients
Author : shadykiller
Score : 91 points
Date : 2021-03-09 18:10 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov)
| odyssey7 wrote:
| Animal protein seems to be good for wellbeing, and there's a lot
| of overlap between veganism, wellness awareness, and alternative
| food choices.
|
| Given that and the already-existing ability to create
| collagen/gelatin in a lab that's suitable for vegans, I've always
| wondered why nobody has managed to get it to market as a food.
|
| There's already a growing group of wellness-focused people who
| don't want typical non-gelatin jelling ingredients like
| carrageenan and various gums in their foods; these provide only
| the jelling property and none of the nutrition of actual gelatin,
| and they are associated with inflammation.
|
| Edit: Maybe all of the funding is going toward grail projects
| like synthetic beef patties that have an element of technical
| novelty, rather than the comparatively boring process of creating
| collagen at scale and getting FDA approval?
| dkarl wrote:
| IIRC from back when I was a vegan, and assuming what I heard
| was correct at the time, there was a single, very popular
| foreign supplier of "vegan" gelatin that was eventually exposed
| as a fraud. The gelatin they were selling was of animal origin.
| There were no competing products. Any new product will have to
| overcome the residual mistrust from that incident.
|
| Found a source for the story that matches my recollection:
| https://aaww.org/the-vegan-marshmallow/
| jfim wrote:
| > Given that and the already-existing ability to create
| collagen/gelatin in a lab that's suitable for vegans, I've
| always wondered why nobody has managed to get it to market as a
| food.
|
| Outside of some pastry applications (eg. mirror cake glazing),
| it's pretty much only used for Jell-O and aspic, neither of
| which are particularly trendy at the moment.
|
| There's gelatin and collagen in soups as part of making broth,
| but it's not really something that people see as an ingredient.
| yawnr wrote:
| Huge demand for collagen powder as a beverage additive lately
| though. Could definitely be a real opportunity.
| ben_w wrote:
| When I was last in the USA, I was very surprised to discover
| all the yoghurt in the store I went to contained gelatin.
| jdminhbg wrote:
| This is a consequence of the low-fat craze that peaked in
| the 90s but still exists. When you remove fat from yogurt,
| you need to add sugar and gelatin back in so it has flavor
| and texture.
|
| That said, you should be able to find plenty of real yogurt
| in the US now.
| odyssey7 wrote:
| Ah, you may not be aware of this. Collagen supplements are
| trendy with the wellness crowd as a protein powder, and bone
| broth is too under closely related reasoning. People who buy
| these things are thinking, "I want my skin and tissues to be
| healthier, so I'm going to buy collagen or bone water that is
| full of it."
|
| This study seems like it bolsters the reasoning. The market
| for both of these options is currently closed off to vegans.
| antattack wrote:
| What's the point of having a better looking scar if you're more
| likely to get colon cancer?
|
| Also, given that study itself measured Iron and B12,
| supplementing Iron and B12 may help scar healing w/o the (red)
| meat eating downside.
| arcturus17 wrote:
| Note how the study compares vegan diets with omnivore diets,
| not with salami and bologna diets.
| centimeter wrote:
| Attributing colon cancer to meat is, it turns out, complete
| bullshit, just like most other nonsense anti-meat fear-
| mongering (uric acid, cholesterol, etc.).
| jjtheblunt wrote:
| I'm not familiar with the data either way, so am reading to
| learn; why do you say it's bullshit?
| centimeter wrote:
| Every time I get concerned about one of these things and
| look it up, it turns out to have been false.
| zepto wrote:
| In context, I think it's as fair to call it bullshit as to
| claim it as a truth.
|
| It was being claimed as a truth _to rebut the implications
| a peer reviewed study_ , but without any data to support
| it.
| steve_adams_86 wrote:
| Before I became vegetarian I read as many papers as I could
| about why meat is good or bad for you.
|
| Unfortunately a lot of papers don't provide very good data
| regarding what kind of meat is being eaten. At least, not
| in what I've read; I'd love to see something better.
|
| Some very specifically included processed meats which, to
| me, invalidates the study as a study about meat. Processed
| meats are a completely different beast. On those grounds a
| significant number of studies I've read are hard to take
| seriously.
|
| This could be a reason people are calling it bullshit.
|
| I'd love to see a study involving conscientious meat eating
| habits in which people eat mostly vegetables, some whole
| meats, and otherwise avoid processed foods. This is how I'd
| want to eat if I ate meat, but it's rare to see balanced
| studies.
|
| This does, however, make some sense: most people eat
| processed foods where these studies are done, so they're
| relevant to a broader part of the population.
|
| They should not be used to condemn meat, though.
| decebalus1 wrote:
| > What's the point of having a better looking scar if you're
| more likely to get colon cancer?
|
| I don't think it's worth going into the extremes with this.
| Omnivore doesn't mean a buttload of red meat.
| xvedejas wrote:
| I'm curious here: I am under the impression, possibly due to
| outdated info, that the issue with red meat was specifically
| that cooking it at high temperatures creates carcinogens (this
| being why bacon is especially bad). Would it be possible to
| avoid carcinogens by slow cooking all red meat at lower
| temperatures?
| da_big_ghey wrote:
| Others already said below research on red meat and colon cancer
| correlation is imperfect. It not to distinguish processed meats
| with not processed. It not consider for difference in cook
| methods producing potential carcinogen, say grill vs. bake.
| Also many people maybe are not predisposed to colon cancer,
| they prefer to have better healing and take a risk such like
| that.
|
| Also study is compare of vegan. Not veggietarian. This mean
| potential beenfit from dairy. ALso potential white meat not
| reds. You have made a link from red meat to scar outcome where
| above study no created one. This is bad thinking.
|
| Also you are say for supplementing remedy all problem on
| vegans. This supplements expensive need much research. Maybe
| hard for getting right. Why benefit from this and use vegans
| diet? If same results are come from meat. There am also chance
| for benefits not iron and b12 related but maybe collogen and
| other meat things.
| yokaze wrote:
| > Also, given that study itself measured Iron and B12,
| supplementing Iron and B12 may help scar healing w/o the (red)
| meat eating downside
|
| Unless iron is the source of the (red) meat eating downside.
| ofrzeta wrote:
| It's not even clear what's meant by "red meat". In all the
| studies they mix up consumption of unprocessed and processed
| meats. In my totally non-scientific metastudy I came to the
| conclusion that it's essentially processed meat with nitrates
| that poses the major health threat.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Personally I think that a good, healthy diet is one that does
| not require me to take supplements to counter deficiencies.
|
| Obviously that does not mean that eating a lot of meat is good,
| but having to take supplements is not good, either.
| bane wrote:
| When I was younger and training very heavily in some sports, I
| experimented a bit with different diets. Bottom-line the more
| meat heavy my diet, the faster I would heal from injuries --
| radically so. For a while I went on a low-carb diet and ate a
| _very_ heavy animal protein diet. I shed pounds, had absolutely
| unstoppable stamina, had far _fewer_ injuries, stretching
| improved, basically never bruised, and healed from sports
| injuries that would have taken weeks in days. I felt like
| Wolverine.
|
| I also felt like a grease grenade all the time and got tired of
| the diet which is why I stopped, but it was definitely superhuman
| for me.
|
| I felt the worst in this sports context was when I experimented
| with a vegan/vegetarian diets. The effects were virtually the
| exact opposite. I'm sure with a nutritionist and more dedication
| I could have overcome many of these issues, but I found building
| a decent diet harder and required more effort.
| lupire wrote:
| Did you ensure that you maintained protein level when you went
| vegan/vegetarian? It's easy to eat much less protein if you
| aren't careful.
| arcturus17 wrote:
| I lift heavy about 4x week.
|
| A lower-carb calorie-restricted diet makes me more alert and
| focused. On the other hand, I sleep like shit, my anxiety
| levels skyrocket, and I also feel moodier, particularly in the
| mornings. I also lose strength fairly quickly.
|
| Eating at a surplus with carbs makes me more lethargic, lazy
| and less focused, but I sleep far better, and I'm in a happier,
| more social, mood. And of course I can make strength gains.
|
| I tried surplus keto a while ago but didn't enjoy it and didn't
| see any of its touted benefits.
|
| If I found a diet that was all positives like you described, I
| would probably hold on to it with my dear life.
|
| What did your it consist of? Did you eat at a surplus or a
| deficit? And what made you quit?
| asoneth wrote:
| I found similar results when I tried a vegan diet. Like you, I
| suspect that I could have made it work if I spent the effort to
| figure out what was missing. If I actually lived my life
| according to my personal ethics that's what I'd do.
|
| For now I've found vegetarianism significantly easier and a
| satisfactory compromise between ethics, health, and nutritional
| laziness.
| dempseye wrote:
| What do you mean when you say you felt like a grease grenade?
| bane wrote:
| Just very very greasy out of my pores. Oily all the time, 2
| or 3 showers a day to keep the grease out of my hair. That
| sort of thing.
| chaimanmeow wrote:
| I would like to see a comparison between the top 10% vegan and
| omnivores. Most vegans are clueless when it comes to making up
| deficiencies in typical vegan diets.
|
| Glycine is one of the relevant aminos that is very suboptimal or
| even scarce in vegetarian and vegan diets. It is also going to be
| one of the important (and likely most common) limiting factors in
| tissue repair.
|
| Proline is also needed for collagen production, but not as
| deficient in Glycine as far as vegetarian diets. Glycine is also
| highly water soluble and a small molecule; it is constantly lost
| in urine. The need for glycine goes way beyond collagen
| production. It is essential for so many biological functions.
|
| Glycine is not considered an "essential amino" because the body
| produces glycine itself, hence it is overlooked by many. It turns
| out the body produces only enough to usually barely scrape by. My
| guess is if another group of vegans were given Glycine (at around
| 4 to 5 grams/day) supplementation the disadvantage relative to
| omnivores would be erased.
| nomadiccoder wrote:
| > Most vegans are clueless when it comes to making up
| deficiencies in typical vegan diets
|
| The same goes for non-vegans.
| cameronh90 wrote:
| However non-vegans don't normally need to make up for the
| deficiencies in typical vegan diets.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I was completely vegan for a couple of years. I went that way
| to avoid gallbladder surgery - it worked, I had no gallbladder
| pain on a vegan diet. I Supplemented with B12 and Vitamin D as
| those are typically low to non-existent in the vegan diet.
|
| But I started to have problems with my teeth chipping - hadn't
| had that before. I did some calculations and realized that
| there was no way I was getting anywhere close to the RDA for
| calcium. So I started supplementing some calcium.
|
| After some gut problems I came to the conclusion that beans
| weren't working for me. I needed to quit eating legumes for a
| while which is highly problematic on a vegan diet as they're
| the major source of protein.
|
| Now I eat a tin of sardines twice/week (and other fish
| occasionally) which means that technically I'm not vegan any
| longer. At least the addition of fish did not cause any
| gallbladder problems.
| tpoacher wrote:
| I can't remember the exact reference here, but I remember a
| research paper which showed that veganism is associated with
| an increased risk of cholecystitis.
|
| This is despite the fact that a typical vegan diet is low in
| fat (which is the typical reason a vegan diet is promoted for
| gallbladder control). In fact, if I remember correctly, the
| 'lack' of fat was also the main risk; in that the occasional
| fact prompted a more violent reaction, thus increasing the
| risk for an impaction.
|
| I can try and find the article for you if you're interested,
| though I remember last time I tried to find it it was no easy
| task trying to sift through the myriad of google results
| containing vegan blogs recommending vegan diets for
| cholecystitis... But in any case, if you're going vegan for
| fear of cholecystitis, be aware it may actually have the
| reverse outcome!
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| In my case I was found to have a gallstone - I was having
| occasional bouts of serious pain in the upper right
| abdominal region that were becoming more frequent.
| Ultrasound revealed gallstone.
|
| But in the couple of weeks before I could get the
| ultrasound I was essentially eating a vegan diet because I
| wasn't sure what was causing the pain and I wanted to just
| concentrate on only eating plants to minimize possible
| triggers. And then when the results came back and the
| surgeon told me it was time to schedule the surgery, I
| realized that I hadn't had any pain on my minimal diet. And
| so decided to give veganism a try for a month or so to see
| what would happen - and I continued to have no pain.
|
| I think what it comes down to is that some animal fats
| cause the gallbladder to contract more vigorously -
| especially red meat, eggs and dairy in my case would
| trigger pain. I've heard about the issue you're talking
| about as it's been suggested that since you no longer have
| vigorous contractions of the gallbladder the gall tends to
| pool up there. On the other hand I've also heard bitter
| foods and beets help with this issue.
| andrekandre wrote:
| it would be interesting to see what the potential causality would
| be for this (vitamins/minerals? hormones from the meat? fats?)
| chmod600 wrote:
| I'm curious if there are good, informative studies about _mental_
| health and veganism.
|
| Arguably mental health is more important when considering a
| choice like veganism.
| subsubzero wrote:
| I found this:
| https://academic.oup.com/nutritionreviews/advance-article-ab...
|
| also: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/animals-and-
| us/20181...
|
| then there is the question: do people with mental health issues
| tend to gravitate towards veganism or is the diet itself is
| causing the issues.
|
| I would like to see a study with a large number of participants
| from diverse backgrounds who are meat eaters and then go vegan
| and see if that affects their mental health. However a meat
| eater who is then forced to eat soy products/meat substitutes
| they dislike may be unhappy for that very reason. Its a
| difficult test condition to say the least.
| chmod600 wrote:
| You could have seven groups with varying levels of choice:
| group 1 is forced to be vegan, group 4 is the control group,
| and group 7 is forced to consume meat. Groups 2-3 would be
| nudged vegan, 5-6 would be nudged to eat meat.
|
| Measure them all and get happiness and health curves after 5,
| 10, 15 years.
|
| It would be expensive, but probably a better use of money
| than a lot of other stuff.
| 1996 wrote:
| Related: the surgical scars of fasting mouse heal better (various
| publications report the same results)
|
| The same seems to apply in human, with various individual
| anecdotal report: https://www.quora.com/Did-long-term-water-
| fasting-improve-an...
| walshemj wrote:
| I was told that loading up on carbs helped with recovery and I
| have a load of stuff downstairs in case i get called in.
| 1996 wrote:
| I notice the downvotes to my post, but what you was told is
| demonstrably wrong.
|
| As for how/why it works:
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7069085/
|
| "Fasting before or after wound injury accelerates wound
| healing through the activation of pro-angiogenic SMOC1 and
| SCG2"
|
| There are various other publications on autophagy (removing
| old stem cells and making new ones)
|
| For those who are going to say "in mice", the effects of true
| (water only) fasting has been replicated in humans, in well
| done trials, in even harsher conditions than surgery:
| chemotherapy.
|
| Fasting improves various things such as the severity of
| symptoms during chemo and the efficiency of the treatment:
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5921787/
|
| "Short term fasting during chemotherapy is well tolerated and
| appears to improve quality of life and fatigue during
| chemotherapy"
|
| It may be counter intuitive, but there's a large body of
| evidence that fasting promotes healing (check the various
| reference of this 2018 trial: "Fasting cycles retard growth
| of tumors and sensitize a range of cancer cell types to
| chemotherapy" https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22323820/ etc
| walshemj wrote:
| That's not what the senior colorectal doctor at the royal
| free told me last year.
| 1996 wrote:
| Your best interest may differ from doctors best interest
| when treating you (not getting sued, following
| guidelines, getting paid for not rocking the boat)
|
| So document yourself: medline is free, and with sci-hub,
| you can get the full versions of anything
|
| EDIT: actually, no, don't document yourself. Ignorance is
| bliss. Why would I even care? After all, it's your life!
| And I care even less than your doctor, since we don't
| even have a contractual relationship (which you have with
| your doctor by virtue of paying him).
| walshemj wrote:
| Yeh my amateur research is going to be better than their
| experience.
| sto_hristo wrote:
| Strange way to word the two patient types: vegans as opposed to
| omnivores. Vegans are still omnivores, they just stopped eating
| animal products because of beliefs.
|
| I also smelled once a vegan cake. It's a medical miracle they can
| survive on such a diet.
| DanBC wrote:
| > Vegans are still omnivores,
|
| No they aren't.
|
| From New Oxford English Dictionary:
|
| > omnivorous
|
| > adjective (of an animal or person) feeding on a variety of
| food of both plant and animal origin.
| SeanFerree wrote:
| Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!
| kiwiandroiddev wrote:
| As much as the results of this study confirm what I would expect,
| keep in mind it was an observational study and not a controlled
| experiment. There might be some other factor at play in the vegan
| group, say, other than just their diet.
|
| Unfortunately I imagine an experiment to further investigate this
| would be hard to get past an ethics board. I.e. wounding the
| participants to see the effect on scar formation...
| hirundo wrote:
| > This study suggests that a vegan diet may negatively influence
| the outcome of surgical scars.
|
| This is unusually damning to veganism-as-it-is-practiced if not
| to veganism itself. It would be interesting to see these results
| across a wide range of diets.
| centimeter wrote:
| One of several motte-and-bailey tactics used by vegans is going
| from
|
| "Veganism is healthy"
|
| To
|
| "Veganism can be healthy if you exercise an impressive amount
| of restraint, discipline, and judgement in your vegan diet"
| petertodd wrote:
| _If_ you can get enough exercise, you can be healthy on
| pretty much any omnivore diet because it's so hard to not get
| enough nutrition, and extra calories don't matter if you burn
| them off. I personally lost lots of weight when I was cycling
| regularly to work and school (10km and 50km round trip
| respectively), as well as caving and climbing on weekends.
| Almost everything I ate was fast food, because I had hardly
| any spare time. But I was definitely healthy and felt great
| so long as I took enough days off (I was getting enough
| exercise that I simply couldn't do it every day).
|
| Meanwhile, I know lots of people who have given up on vegan
| diets because they felt like their health was declining, even
| with regular exercise. I'm sure with enough care and
| nutritional science they could have gotten it to work. But
| it's so much easier to just add some animal products to your
| diet.
| jxramos wrote:
| I remember hearing the question asked someplace about
| whether any professional athletes are vegans, especially
| for the intense sports that require a lot of muscle
| rebuilding and maybe even contact sport healing and what
| not. That might illuminate things a bit.
| asoneth wrote:
| There is an advocacy* movie called The Game Changers
| which highlights several vegan athletes and makes the
| case that their plant-based diet contributes to their
| success. https://gamechangersmovie.com/
|
| * I would not consider it a documentary as it has a clear
| agenda, but I found it interesting nonetheless.
| asoneth wrote:
| I'm not sure any of the vegans I know would give up veganism in
| order to minimize their scars any more than the meat-eaters I
| know would give up meat based on studies that show it can be
| mildly unhealthy.
| moistbar wrote:
| Maybe I'm reading into it too much, but the outcome of this
| study seems to suggest there may be other healing-related
| issues attached to veganism.
| asoneth wrote:
| I wouldn't be surprised, though I would be similarly
| skeptical that other healing-related issues would sway
| people one way or the other either since (at least the
| vegans I know) don't adopt the lifestyle for health
| reasons.
|
| Very large effects are unlikely given the number of long-
| term vegans who seem to maintain sufficient health. Whereas
| small effects might be considered a worthwhile sacrifice.
| imwillofficial wrote:
| I reject your premise that eating meat makes you "mildly
| unhealthy"
| asoneth wrote:
| Exactly.
|
| [To clarify: I am not qualified to judge the general
| healthiness of any particular diet -- any sufficiently
| popular diet seems to have conflicting studies showing it
| is "healthy" and others showing it is "unhealthy". The
| point I intended to make above was that most people either
| outright reject or remain unswayed by these kinds of
| studies.]
| rektide wrote:
| Agreed that there are probably ways to remediate some of these
| effects.
|
| I definitely favor smaller less impactful scarring, but also,
| so what? Calling ths "unusually damning" seems like a
| significant overinflation of concern.
|
| For all we know, it may have far more significant pro-recovery
| characteristics associated with it. "Oh you built too much scar
| tissue? Your vegan diet also stitched your blood vessels back
| together really well."
| arkitaip wrote:
| dang really needs to get YC to develop an AI that can
| automatically add /s to ironic comment.
| centimeter wrote:
| Or people could work on their ability to identify normal
| human modes of speech.
| ben_w wrote:
| Given we've had the internet for over a generation with
| this issue being known that whole time, I don't think
| that's actually something we can do. Not in general, not
| from plain text.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Text inherently makes it difficult if not impossible to
| distinguish sarcasm that would be apparent with
| verbal/visual context clues.
| stelonix wrote:
| I'd rather HN not allow such comments and we try to make
| debate here better than on the rest of the internet.
| badRNG wrote:
| > This is unusually damning to veganism-as-it-is-practiced if
| not to veganism itself.
|
| I don't think a sample size of 21 is especially damning. Nor do
| I think that the study's authors would come to that conclusion
| either.
| tpoacher wrote:
| Depends. Emotive language aside (i.e. "damning") the low
| sample size is actually "more evidence" in the presence of a
| convincingly low p value.
|
| It means that this particular sample of 21 people would have
| to be _extremely_ atypical under the null hypothesis of no
| difference. Therefore, given its low sample size (and thus
| wide standard error), it is 'some' evidence that the effect
| size is also probably quite large.
| majormajor wrote:
| That doesn't sound right. The reason sample size is
| important is because the larger the group, the less likely
| the group is to be atypical. I don't think you can turn
| that around and then say "this group is small, which itself
| is evidence, because otherwise it would have to be
| extremely atypical to show a difference." That's completely
| circular.
|
| The p-value is still the important thing because the
| p-value is itself affected by the sample size.
| stevenhuang wrote:
| No, effect size very much informs all of that.
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3444174/
| gamblor956 wrote:
| Not a surprise. Collagen is important for healing skin wounds,
| and vegans get none from their diet. (Collagen is just a protein,
| so it can be generated by the body, but it's easier for the body
| to simply take collagen from dietary sources.)
| subungual wrote:
| Do you have a source for this? As far as I know, there is no
| way for the body to uptake and employ collagen directly. It
| needs to be broken down into smaller peptides, absorbed, and
| rebuilt, just like any other protein.
| souprock wrote:
| That right there would be surprising and disturbing. Collagen
| that shows up in the diet could arrive with subtle flaws.
|
| Wikipedia: "as of 2011, 30 types of collagen have been
| identified"
|
| Besides getting the wrong type, it could just be damaged. It
| also seems like an awfully big molecule to pass from the
| digestive tract to the blood. If that can pass through, then
| many poisons would also pass through.
|
| Collagen is bigger than some viruses.
| Metacelsus wrote:
| >it's easier for the body to simply take collagen from dietary
| sources.
|
| Digestion doesn't work like that. Any ingested collagen is
| broken down to amino acids like all other proteins. Then the
| amino acids are re-polymerized into collagen.
| hprotagonist wrote:
| is effect size mentioned in the full text?
| mint2 wrote:
| This journal isn't open access is it?
|
| I wanted so see the effect sizes not just p values which are
| unhelpful. But if the vegans are all vitamin b12 deficient, it's
| not a surprise their health has consequences.
|
| And my other question is, is there self selection going on.
| People who go to hospitals have worse outcomes than people who
| don't, so the best thing to do is to avoid hospitals. P < 0.001.
| Right? No, wrong. Did they become vegans due to digestive
| problems or other health issue?
|
| I'd really like to read the article to see if they considered
| these things.
| RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote:
| > Wound diastasis was more frequent in vegans (p = .008).
|
| To me this is the bad part. Wound diastasis means that your
| incision opens up again. That is IMO a bigger complication than a
| scar since it likely requires medical intervention and puts you
| at risk for infection.
| tpoacher wrote:
| I've actually noticed this effect on myself too. It's very
| pronounced in fact.
|
| I have a bad habit of biting my cuticles. I also happen to
| observe lent, effectively going vegan for 50 days every year.
|
| Typically my cuticles heal the next day, or two at most. But
| every single time I enter lent, suddenly my cuticles take more
| than a week to heal the same amount. The difference is very
| obvious, to me at least.
| hawk_ wrote:
| curious what kind of lent you observe that's for 50 days not
| 40.
| beervirus wrote:
| If you count Sundays, it's closer to 50 than 40.
| hawk_ wrote:
| i see, so apparenly different traditions count it
| differently. i had always heard of it as 40 days of lent or
| cuaresma etc... didn't know it could go upto 46 days.
| [deleted]
| Gys wrote:
| > Conclusion: This study suggests that a vegan diet may
| negatively influence the outcome of surgical scars.
|
| > Twenty-one omnivore and 21 vegan patients who underwent
| surgical excision of a nonmelanoma skin cancer
|
| Interesting, but its a small group and stats are on the low end?
| redis_mlc wrote:
| n=21 is not necessarily a small population from a statistical
| standpoint.
|
| Anyway, would be interesting to get comments from doctors who
| trest vegans. I'm not surprised at the result (we are what we
| eat), so perhaps vegans really should be on vitamins.
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