[HN Gopher] Cracking of encrypted messaging service dealt major ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Cracking of encrypted messaging service dealt major blow to
       organised crime
        
       Author : melicerte
       Score  : 79 points
       Date   : 2021-03-09 14:02 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.brusselstimes.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.brusselstimes.com)
        
       | kingsloi wrote:
       | I had just read about Dutch meth. That's one thing I never
       | thought I would hear about, Dutch meth. However, a Breaking Bad
       | European spin off would be interesting.
        
         | samatman wrote:
         | Not quite Breaking Bad, because it comes at the story from the
         | other direction, but there's a German show on Netflix called
         | How To Sell Drugs Online (Fast), which is pretty entertaining
         | so far.
         | 
         | I expect if the series lasts long enough they'll work the
         | storyline up to manufacture.
        
         | kazen44 wrote:
         | Undercover[1] is a dutch series depicting a pretty common
         | scenario. The south of the country supplies a majority of the
         | world in xtc. [2]
         | [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undercover_(2019_TV_series)
         | 
         | [2] https://i.redd.it/v31h0g7tnhc51.jpg
        
       | csense wrote:
       | Any technical info on how the app was compromised?
       | 
       | If I worked for the government and I wanted to break into an app,
       | I'd simply send a letter to the app store saying "Yeah you have
       | to post this app update that contains code written by government
       | hackers to leak the keys / messages of (investigation targets |
       | everyone). If you don't, your executives / employees will (be
       | sent to jail | be kidnapped by black ops forces, shot, and buried
       | in an unmarked grave). Ditto if you tell anyone about this
       | letter."
        
       | iudqnolq wrote:
       | I enjoyed this snark, but I wonder if they're actually legally
       | entitled to it.
       | 
       | > Sky ECC promised a 5 million USD (EUR4.2 million) prize on its
       | website, which is currently down, to anyone who could crack its
       | encryption.
       | 
       | > It is not yet clear if Belgian authorities plan to claim the
       | reward.
        
         | LorenPechtel wrote:
         | Most of the time it's not actually cracking the encryption that
         | breaks these things.
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | Those companies never pay out anyway.
        
           | iudqnolq wrote:
           | Still, it would be a fun lawsuit
        
       | cybert00th wrote:
       | >But critics say more than 90% of its customers are criminals.
       | 
       | They're a bit thin on the details of exactly who those critics
       | are, which makes that statement inadmissible other than for us to
       | draw the inference that the critics are law enforcement agencies
       | - or worse still, governments.
       | 
       | Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning the misuse of encrypted
       | messaging, only pointing out the convenient straw man that's been
       | erected here to manipulate readers' emotions in order to short-
       | circuit their ability to think critically about what's ACTUALLY
       | been done by the authorities.
        
         | tzs wrote:
         | Subscriptions are EUR2100 per year. It looks like the features
         | it has over cheaper or free alternatives are disabling camera,
         | GPS, and microphone, deleting messages after 30 seconds, a
         | "panic" password that if entered causes the device to be wiped,
         | and the app is apparently somewhat hidden so it isn't
         | immediately apparent to someone looking at your device that you
         | have it.
         | 
         | I'd not at all be surprised if they had a disproportionately
         | large number of criminals among their users. There are plenty
         | of non-criminal uses for which you need highly secure
         | messaging, but much fewer for which you need 30 second
         | deletion, a panic mode, and to hide the fact that you have a
         | secure messaging app.
        
         | [deleted]
        
         | pentaphobe wrote:
         | Completely agree on all points - it also kind of buries the
         | lead with regard to the rather cliche false equivalency
         | 
         | Up there with [cash is used for bad things, so we should ban
         | cash](https://www.businessinsider.com.au/why-cash-should-be-
         | illega...)
        
           | buran77 wrote:
           | It's the typical "think of the children" or "but the
           | terrorists" approach. Everyone is treated like a criminal
           | because some of them could be.
           | 
           | Calling the users "criminals" makes it harder to defend them
           | at first glance because the first reaction is "you're
           | defending criminals". And attaching a number to this, even an
           | impossible to support statistic, is meant to make the
           | statement more believable, everyone likes nice, round
           | numbers.
           | 
           | Of course they hope nobody raises the not so obvious points.
           | Even taking that statement at face value (which you
           | definitely should not) what about the other 10% non-criminals
           | whose privacy was violated without any reasonable cause?
           | Where else are they using the excuse that 90% success rate is
           | acceptable? If 90% is enough to paint everyone with the same
           | brush, when 90% of users are not criminals why aren't the
           | other 10% also treated as innocent too?
           | 
           | In reality just about 100% of "critics" saying this are law
           | enforcement agencies or governments who will violate your
           | rights or break the law in a heartbeat if it means getting
           | their way.
        
           | bobbylarrybobby wrote:
           | FYI https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/bury-the-
           | lede-...
        
         | sillysaurusx wrote:
         | Is it misuse? Being able to say what you want (illegal or not)
         | without the government knowing about it is arguably one of the
         | most advertised features of encrypted messaging.
         | 
         | (I agree with your assessment, of course. Just curious what
         | your personal stance is.)
        
       | LaundroMat wrote:
       | As a Belgian citizen (but not a criminal, as far as I know) I'm
       | very interested to hear the HN community's take on this. The
       | local press is saying no encryption is safe for the police
       | (anymore) and that it was Belgian law enforcement that was able
       | to crack the encryption of the app the criminals were using.
       | 
       | I wonder if the press knows what it's talking about.
        
         | joemazerino wrote:
         | When your client base is comprised of child traffickers,
         | cocaine smugglers and murderers. A company that prides itself
         | on hiding nefarious figures with little to no legitimate
         | clients will surely find itself at the end of a LEO hack.
        
         | sleepytimetea wrote:
         | Love the disclaimer ("but not a criminal, as far as I know").
         | 
         | Have you read those bizarre fake facts like "it is illegal to
         | eat oranges in your bathtub in California" ? If you haven't, I
         | am sure you have broken myriad weird laws like that and are, in
         | fact, a criminal ! :-).
        
           | ENOTTY wrote:
           | A great source of these for the US federal jurisdiction is
           | the CrimeADay Twitter account https://twitter.com/crimeaday
        
         | swiley wrote:
         | Lets see here:
         | 
         | Not open source: check
         | 
         | Not federated (so they can force you to update the client):
         | check
         | 
         | Integrates with carrier value add: check (SIM crap)
         | 
         | Integrates with OS vendor value add: check
         | 
         | Flashy website with third party requests to google.com: check
         | 
         | Yeah this looks like crap to me.
        
           | iorrus wrote:
           | What is federation in this context?
           | 
           | Does not federated mean not using a jailbroken phone?
           | 
           | Or is it related to how the app is installed?
           | 
           | Or the underlying infrastructure relying on a central server
           | instead of distributed?
        
             | dboreham wrote:
             | Federated means everyone gets to pick which server they
             | use, including one that's specific to just that one user.
        
               | SV_BubbleTime wrote:
               | To expand in case it isn't clear... if you have a
               | federated client it has to work to a standard, a backdoor
               | at the client could be added on one app but probably not
               | all the options. If you were trying to hack a system like
               | this and they don't use a federated client, the only
               | option is the "official app" and authorities could have
               | taken control of that, added a backdoor, and pushed it
               | out as an update.
               | 
               | This could still happen with any one or two or multiple
               | federated apps, but the changes at a lot less likely this
               | would go undetected.... then again... I have less faith
               | in the "many eyes" theory of these things since
               | HeartBleed was an OpenSSL flaw for years and that was
               | open source no one ever noticed.
        
               | swiley wrote:
               | Open source is more of a minimum requirement not
               | assurance of quality.
        
         | tomc1985 wrote:
         | Most likely Sky ECC had some kind of weakness or vulnerability
         | that made it vulnerable to attack.
         | 
         | Encryption is really hard, and one mistake can unravel all of
         | your efforts. I doubt that a boutique shop like Sky ECC's
         | owners had the resources to secure it as well as they claimed.
        
           | iorrus wrote:
           | Seems crazy to do things this way. Why not use signal or
           | telegram secure chat, get lost in the crowd
        
             | unnouinceput wrote:
             | Because Signal definitely will comply with a judge if given
             | good reasons, like "here is a criminal organization using
             | your app, help us dismantle it" and Telegram is the same as
             | Signal with the exception is Russian.
             | 
             | Also encryption is as good as its weakest link, in this
             | case are humans. Probably police flipped some criminals to
             | be informers and now it's running a smoke&mirrors campaign
             | in media in order to send rest of criminals to make more
             | mistakes.
             | 
             | As for the ideal way to do organized crime the main
             | ingredient is to own judges + police and you're set for
             | life. From time to time let some minor transport get
             | intercepted by your corrupt policemen, have some small fish
             | get fried by your judge and stir waters for a few days in
             | media in their favor. Maybe this news is exactly that and
             | while the newspapers are reporting few millions captured
             | you haul the rest of billions without a hiccup.
        
               | LockAndLol wrote:
               | Signal doesn't store the keys on their servers, nor do
               | they know who is talking to whom. You should read up
               | their protocol.
        
               | [deleted]
        
             | joemazerino wrote:
             | Neither of those options provide revenue.
        
           | novok wrote:
           | If you go to their store page, you'll see their side of the
           | story. Basically they say that the hack clients were
           | sideloaded / modified versions. Which if you think about it,
           | might be the way the police cracked the network.
           | 
           | "Sky ECC platform remains secure and our authorized devices
           | have not been hacked.
           | 
           | There have been recent news articles that claim Sky ECC has
           | been hacked and is involved in criminal activity. This
           | information is not accurate. We have looked into these claims
           | and discovered that a small group of individuals illegally
           | created and distributed an unauthorized version of Sky ECC
           | which they modified and side-loaded onto unsecure devices.
           | Security features that come standard with the Sky ECC phones
           | were eliminated in these bogus devices. ..." [0]
           | 
           | [0] https://store.skyecc.com/
        
             | tomc1985 wrote:
             | Yeah, but do you actually trust them to be honest?
             | 
             | Pretty much _every_ company responds to this kind of stuff
             | with  "nothing to see here, move along"
        
         | WJW wrote:
         | From what I read in the Dutch news, they managed to crack about
         | half the messages so far. That they haven't cracked them all
         | indicates that it is not a vulnerability in the encryption
         | itself. I suspect that the police managed to gain physical
         | access to the servers and went from there. Opsec is really
         | really hard.
         | 
         | Fun, unrelated story: apparently some of the intelligence
         | operations managed to get their hands on the laptop of a target
         | while it was at some maintenance store to get the screen
         | replaced. They managed to install a physical keylogger inside
         | it with its own radio, but hooked up to the laptops power
         | supply. This is the kind of shenanigans you have to be aware of
         | and defend against when you run a service like Sky ECC. The
         | slightest slip up and you are doomed.
        
           | wiz21c wrote:
           | It'd be nice a to have police officer talk about this :-)
           | 
           | But is it me or police techniques such as gaining physical
           | access to criminals, flipping them to informers, close
           | surveillance, etc. continue to be very efficient even in the
           | face of quite good technology ?
        
       | doublextremevil wrote:
       | why would anyone use this over something like signal?
        
         | er4hn wrote:
         | At a guess - flashier marketing sold to consumers who don't
         | know better.
        
           | vecinu wrote:
           | Another likely scenario, people who do "underground" things
           | prefer using not so popular tools to evade authorities but
           | that may prove to have the opposite effect if they're not
           | built robustly.
        
         | wp381640 wrote:
         | The devices do more than signal since they remove GPS,
         | microphones, have a custom OS and provide anonymous burner SIMs
         | on a subscription
         | 
         | Most of these hacks are the equivalent of hacking signal and
         | backdooring the software
         | 
         | This shit is hard especially when LE is determined, but
         | criminal syndicates aren't dumb and hire a lot of smart people
        
           | novok wrote:
           | Why would you work at a criminal syndicate where you could
           | just work in big tech with these levels of skill? These
           | syndicates would have to pay $1 million /yr minimum to
           | justify the risk.
        
             | shadowgovt wrote:
             | Depends on the cirumstances. For example, if you have a
             | criminal record, some of big tech is quite a bit less
             | interested in talking to you. Criminal syndicates,
             | obviously, don't consider a criminal record a deal-breaker.
        
               | jdmoreira wrote:
               | also you might have family and community ties to some of
               | these people. They might groom you since you are an early
               | teen.
               | 
               | When I was 13 for sure being the hacker in a crime
               | organization would have sounded somewhat appealing.
        
               | novok wrote:
               | good point
        
             | antihero wrote:
             | I imagine they have way better office parties.
        
             | AJ007 wrote:
             | A requirement to be involved in narcotics distribution is
             | inability to think things through very carefully.
        
               | boringg wrote:
               | Or a lack of other viable options. I would agree with
               | your comment on the whole though. Typically doesn't end
               | well.
        
           | dgellow wrote:
           | How do they hire talents? You can make lot of money legally
           | if you're a smart person in tech, I guess they have to offer
           | either ridiculously high salaries, or something else?
        
           | antihero wrote:
           | So this puts an absolutely huge amount of trust in one place
           | (the Sky ECC) company. A single point of failure that can
           | control and have access to everything if it goes rogue.
           | Surely just having some internally maintained ROMs with
           | Signal/Telegram/Riot/OTR and your own process for procuring
           | and cycling burners would be better if you have the money and
           | resources?
        
           | topynate wrote:
           | > since they remove GPS, microphones, have a custom OS and
           | provide anonymous burner SIMs on a subscription
           | 
           | That is, do a bunch of crap that will immediately make you
           | stand out to any modern (by which I mean, total) surveillance
           | agency. The syndicates' problem isn't stupidity but
           | _immodesty_ - typical of organized crime. They thought they
           | were, not smart, but the smartest, and that made it easy for
           | other criminals to sell them garbage security products.
        
             | wp381640 wrote:
             | From a network perspective it's indistinguishable from a 4G
             | hotspot
             | 
             | The devices are also heavily rotated, they can also have
             | IMEI numbers updated
             | 
             | To date with all of the public breach details it's always
             | been humint that lead to the networks being taken down
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | > From a network perspective it's indistinguishable from
               | a 4G hotspot
               | 
               | Not exactly, because that would depend on how competent
               | the network is. For a "dumb" network yes, they won't know
               | whether it's a 4g hotspot or not, but it's conceivable
               | that an all-knowing adversary (eg. NSA) can infer the
               | make/model of the phone based on fingerprinting or even
               | the IMEI.
        
       | jacquesm wrote:
       | After Encrochat you'd think they would wise up, this is pretty
       | much a re-run.
        
       | ricardobayes wrote:
       | Change my mind on this, but in countries with freedom of speech,
       | the only reason to have this much 'privacy' is if you're doing
       | something shady. Again, looking for a conversation here. edit: By
       | 'this much' I mean going extreme lengths to secure privacy, the
       | online equivalent of using a numbered swiss bank account. Nice
       | discussion so far, thoroughly enjoying it. I don't mind the
       | dislikes, if that makes your day better, dislike away.
        
         | meepmorp wrote:
         | You can want to keep something secret without doing something
         | shady.
         | 
         | How you want your doctor to tell you that you've got gonorrhea:
         | in a private conversation in their office, or through shouting
         | it at you in the waiting room?
        
           | ricardobayes wrote:
           | Some great ideas thanks. But I feel most of the examples
           | given are not adequate. By 'this much privacy' I meant going
           | out of way to use 'untraceable' software. I don't think a
           | doctor's office is relative to this, more like a numbered
           | swiss bank account.
        
             | meepmorp wrote:
             | Ok, think of someone in a situation where the cost of being
             | discovered is too great, even if unlikely.
             | 
             | Whistleblowers, human rights activists, people in abusive
             | or dangerous living situations they can't immediately
             | escape, sexual assault victims seeking support in private,
             | a well known person who has personal issue they want to
             | keep to themselves.
             | 
             | If you stand to lose a lot by being identified, then you're
             | a use case.
        
         | chickenpotpie wrote:
         | Example: someone has an abusive spouse that they're trying to
         | get away from a needs a way to communicate for help without
         | them being able to find out
        
           | ricardobayes wrote:
           | Interesting - around here they have a code word that can be
           | said to the pharmacist and they will know what to do (call
           | the cops).
        
         | yakz wrote:
         | The key word in what you wrote is "shady" because that word is
         | going to be open to interpretation by the enforcers who are
         | almost certainly corrupt to some extent. So, it's better to
         | just limit the power of the enforcers as much as possible (in
         | other words, the maximum limit that you can convince your
         | society to allow).
        
         | frongpik wrote:
         | Can you look up emails or listen to phone calls of a high
         | ranked politicians or the rich elite? You can't because they
         | think it's none of your business and have power to do their
         | business in secrecy. There's a lot of shady people doing some
         | large scale crime.
        
         | PeterWhittaker wrote:
         | This inevitably came up back when I taught privacy and security
         | classes. I always asked everyone with kids to raise their hands
         | (most hands went up).
         | 
         | Then I would ask "don't raise your hands, but when dealing with
         | your kids, have any of you ever acted in a way wasn't captured
         | on camera?"
         | 
         | I don't mean beating or physical abuse or anything that
         | horrible, and everyone knew it. Combine young tired kids with a
         | cranky, tired adult, and it's almost guaranteed that the adult
         | will have had at least one rage meltdown.
         | 
         | They probably only yelled and ranted. But they probably looked
         | like a monster doing it.
         | 
         | How quickly would such an image or film go viral? And how
         | condemned would the person be?
         | 
         | We are all foibly humans, we all have moments that we regret or
         | that fill us with shame. And we're all glad they weren't
         | recorded for posterity.
         | 
         | Privacy isn't about protecting your best face, your public
         | face. It's about protecting all of your faces, all of your
         | moods, your knowledge, your relationships, etc.
         | 
         | We have free speech, but do we have freedom from
         | judgementalism? Until we do, we all need privacy.
        
           | ricardobayes wrote:
           | Thanks for the example there. I should have clarified better
           | I meant more like the online equivalent of numbered swiss
           | bank accounts, not a simple visit to the doctor's office or
           | yelling at kids. I think one of the key discussions of this
           | decade will be how much is too much privacy - and how little
           | is too little privacy. We will see products and services
           | triumph and fall based on this discussion.
        
         | abstractbarista wrote:
         | Do you have blinds on your windows?
        
           | ricardobayes wrote:
           | Interesting point. In the Netherlands, many houses don't have
           | curtains, you can see directly into the living room from the
           | street. It stems from the old tradition of wives being
           | accountable when their husbands were at sea. I learned from
           | your comment (perceived) privacy is also cultural.
        
             | ganzuul wrote:
             | Privacy is skewed to the disadvantage of women in the
             | Netherlands? Am I reading you correctly?
        
         | black6 wrote:
         | Not sure of the provenance of the quote, but I heard it from
         | Steve Gibson: "I don't have anything to hide when I'm using the
         | toilet, but I still like my privacy when doing so."
        
           | unnouinceput wrote:
           | Exactly this, +1. I definitely have nothing to hide but I
           | really don't want my photos of my kids to end up in some dark
           | web location used by pedophiles, just because google is an
           | idiot and let it slip while backed my photos without my
           | consent in their cloud (true story, I had to fight 3 months
           | to have that backup deleted from their server).
        
         | ganzuul wrote:
         | It's about trust. If someone is trying to find out what I'm
         | doing, I'm going to hide what I am doing because they are
         | acting suspicious. The more asymmetric the power balance, the
         | less trust can exist.
         | 
         | A less biological, more modern concern, is that a potentially
         | super-intelligent actor (e.g. an ML team dedicated to finding
         | human weakness and exploiting it, like marketing depts do)
         | could find out things about me that even I didn't know and use
         | it against me.
         | 
         | In the modern world complete paranoia and distrust in is the
         | only strategy with guaranteed sucess which respects our drive
         | to survive. Mass-manipulation of elections is a symptom of the
         | disease.
        
         | djrogers wrote:
         | One aspect to this is that cultural norms, and those in power,
         | change over time. There are tons of people who said or believed
         | things 10 years ago that would get them fired today. And that's
         | in countries with freedom of speech.
         | 
         | I'd be shocked if most people would be ok with public
         | disclosure of every inconsiderate, off-color, or poorly worded
         | joke you've ever made in _private_. That's leaving aside things
         | like intimate conversations with a spouse /SO, etc.
         | 
         | That said, I wouldn't be using a service like this to get
         | there, but I do value the ability to use a privacy-focused
         | messaging app in my day-to-day life.
        
       | usernamebias wrote:
       | If you visit the app's website, you get this big popup.
       | 
       | -------------
       | 
       | Sky ECC platform remains secure and our authorized devices have
       | not been hacked.
       | 
       | There have been recent news articles that claim Sky ECC has been
       | hacked and is involved in criminal activity. This information is
       | not accurate. We have looked into these claims and discovered
       | that a small group of individuals illegally created and
       | distributed an unauthorized version of Sky ECC which they
       | modified and side-loaded onto unsecure devices. Security features
       | that come standard with the Sky ECC phones were eliminated in
       | these bogus devices.
       | 
       | Sky ECC considers these actions as malicious and we are taking
       | legal action against these individuals for defamation and fraud.
       | 
       | We have also blocked these users from our system and enhanced
       | security to prevent reoccurrence of this issue. The
       | implementation of these enhancements temporarily interrupted our
       | Sky ECC service which has now been re-established.
       | 
       | We continue to stand by our position and our product. We strongly
       | support that people have the fundamental right to privacy. With
       | the extensive and broadly documented rise worldwide of corporate
       | espionage, cybercrime and malicious data breaches, systems like
       | SKY ECC are the foundation of the effective functioning for many
       | industries including legal professionals, public health providers
       | and vaccine supply chains, celebrities, manufacturers and many
       | more.
       | 
       | We believe that the individual right to privacy is paramount for
       | those who are acting within the law and we do not condone the use
       | of our product for criminal activity. We also have our Terms of
       | Service that every user must adhere to and, provided that they
       | do, our company will work feverishly to protect their rights with
       | the world's most secure platform.
       | 
       | ------------
       | 
       | Thoughts?
        
       | boringg wrote:
       | 17 tonnes of cocaine - thats a crazy amount.
        
       | neves wrote:
       | The belief in encrypted message apps is a gold mine. In Brazil,
       | the former president Lula has been convicted to jail. A hacker
       | broke Telegram and got the messages that demonstrated a
       | conspiracy between the judge and the prosecution:
       | https://www.wired.com/story/brazil-hacker-bolsonaro-car-wash...
       | 
       | The conviction prevented him to run for office (he was the
       | favorite in the polls). Yesterday the ex-president got his
       | political rights back and will probably be candidate in 2022 to
       | try to defeat Bolsonaro.
       | 
       | Everything due to the hacker (And the journalist Glenn Greenwald
       | of Snowden fame)
        
         | matthewdgreen wrote:
         | >The belief in encrypted message apps is a gold mine.
         | 
         | I think you mean "the belief that non-E2E encrypted messaging
         | apps are actually E2E-encrypted messaging apps" is a goldmine.
         | Ditto TFA.
         | 
         | Real E2E systems aren't invulnerable: there are certainly hacks
         | that target endpoint devices. But it's astonishing to me how
         | many people end up using centralized, non-E2E apps when secure
         | ones are available.
        
       | filleokus wrote:
       | Maybe I'm overconfident in the security of an up-to-date iOS
       | device with a complex passcode, but I would have just used Signal
       | if I was tasked with running the IT ops of some crime syndicate.
       | 
       | Turn of all cloudy functions, hell maybe use some kind of
       | enterprise MDM to enforce polices on your subordinates.
        
         | dgellow wrote:
         | Signal is bound to a phone number, no? I think I would go with
         | OTR via XMPP, or whatever is a modern protocol. Or maybe Matrix
         | is now a good alternative?
         | 
         | I didn't use OTR since a long time now, so not sure if that's
         | still a good choice, but it's quite versatile and easy to
         | setup.
         | 
         | Edit: OTR doesn't seem to be recommended anymore, OMEMO seems
         | to be the modern alternative
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OMEMO
        
           | Groxx wrote:
           | It is, but it's not re-validated once used. You can get a
           | burner phone, sign up, ditch the phone.
        
             | swiley wrote:
             | I'm not going through the hassle of _buying a new phone_
             | just to create another centralized chat account. I have
             | email (with GPG if you don 't mind that,) a jabber account
             | with OMEMO enabled clients, and SMS. Two people have
             | bothered to ask if I want to use signal and everyone just
             | uses SMS.
        
           | [deleted]
        
           | thepangolino wrote:
           | Isn't OTR protocol Indeoendent? I remember using it even
           | through Facebook via Pidgin.
           | 
           | OMEMO seems tied to XMPP.
        
       | upofadown wrote:
       | >Sky ECC promised a 5 million USD (EUR4.2 million) prize on its
       | website, which is currently down, to anyone who could crack its
       | encryption. > >It is not yet clear if Belgian authorities plan to
       | claim the reward.
       | 
       | For the EncroChat takedown they didn't crack the encryption. They
       | instead flipped an employee who cooperated in the installation of
       | a remote access Trojan on all the phones. Are they actually
       | claiming they did something different here?
        
         | joemazerino wrote:
         | Source for the trojan/employee flipping claim?
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | fitblipper wrote:
       | >It defended its services, stating they "strongly believe that
       | privacy is a fundamental human right."
       | 
       | > But critics say more than 90% of its customers are criminals.
       | 
       | How do the critics know? This appears to be an attack on privacy.
       | The implied idea is that personal communication for all should be
       | published at least to law enforcement so law enforcement can do a
       | better job of finding the baddies.
        
         | PoignardAzur wrote:
         | Given that the app has features like "delete messages after 30
         | seconds" and "enter a panic password to delete all your data",
         | a 90% drug-dealer/political-activist ratio doesn't seem far-
         | fetched to me.
         | 
         | If you build an anti-witch-hunt app, most of your clients will
         | be witches.
        
           | zionic wrote:
           | How do you know even 1% of their users use that function? If
           | Facebook adds that feature tomorrow do billions suddenly
           | become criminals?
           | 
           | You assume just because the feature exists the clientele are
           | using it.
        
       | headmelted wrote:
       | I'm a little surprised they would choose to advertise the fact
       | that they've been able to gain access to this traffic.
       | 
       | Surely disclosing that will just have driven the same users to
       | other apps and they'll have to start from scratch (and presumably
       | get lucky again in the future)?
        
         | goatsi wrote:
         | They have to disclose the source of information to be able to
         | use it in criminal cases.
         | 
         | >Surely disclosing that will just have driven the same users to
         | other apps and they'll have to start from scratch
         | 
         | From the sounds of it this app had already been cracked when
         | the Eurochat bust was announced, allowing them to scoop up all
         | the users who tried to just move to the next alternative. I
         | imagine trust in the "secure communications for criminals"
         | ecosystem will be low for a while.
         | 
         | Police did a similar thing with darknet markets, they secretly
         | took control of the second largest (Hansa) and then publicly
         | announced the bust of the largest (Alphabay). They ran it for a
         | month, collecting all the information (and money) they could
         | (even pulling tricks like deleting all the images so drug
         | vendors might accidentally reupload ones with EXIF data) before
         | shutting it down. All the better to erode trust in the entire
         | ecosystem.
        
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