[HN Gopher] Israel's lucrative and secretive cybersurveillance i...
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Israel's lucrative and secretive cybersurveillance industry
Author : leoschwartz
Score : 261 points
Date : 2021-03-09 13:58 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (restofworld.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (restofworld.org)
| chzm wrote:
| This is serious because many leaders especially in developing
| countries where democracy is relatively young are using the same
| technologies to spy on opposition leaders and activists. Many
| people are dying and are running away from their homeland because
| Israel technology is enabling dictators and shrinking the rights
| of others.
| tacheiordache wrote:
| Outbrain and Taboola are as sneaky as the cybersurveillance and
| they might cover the same thing after all. Not sure how far this
| will go without any consequences until Israelis decide it's not
| the right thing to do and it is bad for the country in the long
| run.
| joelbluminator wrote:
| Can you explain what's so sneaky about Outbrain/Taboola? I
| understand there's some tracking going on but is there anything
| over the top?
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| It's an easy jump from digital surveillance to targeted
| advertising. The only difference is who pays for the data.
| [deleted]
| rvnx wrote:
| Or just invest in a digital advertising company (example:
| Facebook and In-Q-Tel)
| high_byte wrote:
| Might be unpopular opinion but I think these do more damage
| than these private intelligence corporations. they ARE private
| intelligence corporations, just not (well not exactly)
| offensive cyber.
| whearyou wrote:
| It's dirty as all heck. The people who run it are cowboys too
| I've heard.
| avipars wrote:
| they are entirely based on fake news
| spoonjim wrote:
| Israelis have massively more genuine external threat than
| Americans so they are going to believe in the military
| industrial complex a lot longer.
| bosswipe wrote:
| Or so they've been led to believe after 20 years of right
| wing hawkish rule.
| beagle3 wrote:
| They are less sneaky and have less reach than Google and
| Facebook - but are comparable (they provide some value to
| users, but mostly to advertisers at the expense of users - and
| they keep most of that value for themselves. On a smaller
| scale)
|
| Why do you expect them (or Israelis in general) to decide
| that's not the right thing to do? Do you expect the same of
| Google or Facebook? Or Americans for that matter?
| tw04 wrote:
| >Why do you expect them (or Israelis in general) to decide
| that's not the right thing to do? Do you expect the same of
| Google or Facebook? Or Americans for that matter?
|
| Google and Facebook are hacking journalist's phones and
| selling access to dictators for the purpose of planning an
| execution? Citation?
| beagle3 wrote:
| GP was talking about Outbrain and Taboola who are not as
| far as I know hacking anyone's emails. That was what I was
| responding to.
| threatofrain wrote:
| > "Most Israelis think that intelligence is pure and slick,"
| he says. He came to see IDF intelligence as blunt, dirty
| work. "Old school things," he says. Like blackmailing gay
| Palestinians, he explains. Or threatening to cut off medical
| care from people with health problems. Or threatening the
| families of people with health problems. But when it comes to
| criticism of 8200, K. is an anomaly among his peers. Many are
| more like Raphael Ouzan -- true believers.
| joelbluminator wrote:
| I was in 8200 and this sounds like rubbish to me. unit 8200
| doesn't directly deal with human intelligence: they don't
| contact Palestinians/threaten them. This stuff is done,
| don't get me wrong, but that's the Shabak's doing. Shabak
| has way more tools to gather this kinds of info (vast
| network of snitches, really good Arabic experts etc) and
| can also use this info since Shabak deals with Palestinians
| directly. BTW the cooperation between army intelligence and
| Shabak is shit, at least that's how it was in my days. So I
| doubt any data about gays is passed from 8200 to Shabak. I
| call bullshit, sorry.
| [deleted]
| dagav wrote:
| Literally every intelligence service does this, they're
| called "assets"[1]. Right and wrong isn't as black and
| white as you may think.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_(intelligence)
| pboutros wrote:
| I think blackmailing someone in the closet is almost
| always wrong -- I'm sure there's some contrived edge case
| that could be thought of, but as a whole, it's never
| okay.
|
| Just because most / all intelligence agencies do
| something doesn't mean it's okay. It's unambiguously
| wrong.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| The word "armchair warrior" springs to mind. It's easy to
| be right from the comfort of your own home.
| threatofrain wrote:
| A theme of this article is to say that you are reachable
| from the metaphorical armchair of your residence. And if
| you are gay, you are within reach. If you have a reason
| for insurance companies to cut you off, then that is the
| smell of of leverage.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| I'm talking about moralizing it from a detached
| perspective.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Intelligence agents blackmailing people over the internet
| are quite literally armchair warriors as well, if you
| think about it.
| dagav wrote:
| There is a moral obligation to blackmail people who have
| material information about an imminent terror attack, or
| anything else which may threaten innocent lives. If I
| were you, I'd be much more concerned about why being
| exposed as gay in the Palestinian Territories is a threat
| capable of flipping an asset.
| z2210558 wrote:
| Who's talking about "imminent terror attacks"? Do you
| think that is the majority of intelligence work? Do you
| need it to be to justify blackmail?
| dagav wrote:
| Israeli intelligence is working around the clock to
| disrupt the actions of terrorist groups like Hezbollah
| and Hamas. There are countless terror factions who's sole
| purpose is to destroy Israel and execute a second
| Holocaust. You don't hear about the terror plans which
| were foiled. You don't have sympathy for Israel because
| they are winning.
| solosoyokaze wrote:
| There is no moral high-ground for Israel. _They_ are the
| colonizing force and they 're committing war crimes and
| illegal annexing of Palestinian land. They're also
| blackmailing people for being gay as per the article.
| dagav wrote:
| If the Israelis laid down their arms, there would be a
| second Holocaust. If the Arabs laid down their arms,
| there would be peace. I call that moral high ground.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| My old friend. They are blackmailing people.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Ah, the ol' Scalia and Jack Bauer scenario.
|
| https://archive.is/7nHRH
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| Other intelligence services do not do this to people they
| have subjugated.
|
| It is roughly equivalent to if the CIA did this to Black
| Americans pre-1965.
| dagav wrote:
| Writing code is a great way to make money in the desert. Israel
| is essentially an island. Also, warfare in the future is likely
| to be primarily digital, and Israel has many enemies. Israel will
| lead the cybersecurity and cyberwarfare industries out of sheer
| necessity.
| high_byte wrote:
| The cold war never ended, it just moved to cyber space, might
| as well call it world war 3.
|
| also, we made peace with 7 countries that's excellent news! and
| more to come.
| petra wrote:
| Military systems will probably become provably secure before
| the next great war.
|
| The situation will be totally different than on the commercial
| side.
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| I don't think warfare will be primarily digital. Similar things
| were said about airpower, artillery, and naval power.
| Ultimately you need boots on the ground. If you rely too much
| on any one thing the enemy will route around it.
| high_byte wrote:
| Yes, Atlas in boots. many of them. (boston dynamic)
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| Maybe. I trust people more than machines for the
| near/moderate future.
| dagav wrote:
| Why invade a country, when you can shut down its
| infrastructure and force them to surrender? War isn't won by
| killing, its won by conquering. I also suspect that machines
| will be so effective at killing, that you won't be able to
| find soldiers stupid enough to fight them head to head. We
| have yet to see the full capabilities of a cyber super power.
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| I find it hard to imagine a scenario in which all of the
| relevant infrastructure is shutdown to such a degree that
| it forces a country to surrender.
| dagav wrote:
| What if you could shut down their water processing
| plants? Their electricity grid? Their internet? How long
| would it take for that state to collapse?
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| That stuff is so distributed and so heterogenous that I
| just don't think a successful attack of that sort is
| likely.
|
| Edit: Maybe the most sophisticated attack of that sort
| was the one against the Iranian nuclear program, and
| while it was successful it and seems to have set back the
| program it was hardly a show stopper. It also required
| pretty specialized knowledge of the controllers used to
| operate the centrifuges (for enriching the fuel). If you
| consider the enormous variety of controllers and ways of
| doing things across different plants I just don't see how
| it would work to shut down a large fraction of even
| something like power generation.
| dagav wrote:
| I suppose, I just have a feeling that the most powerful
| capabilities of cyber super powers are yet to be seen.
| bluGill wrote:
| The problem is you are assuming you can do that. Not
| everything is connected to the internet, and there are
| backups. You can probably shutdown power for a couple
| days (and a couple more weeks to be back up to full
| power), but you can only pull that trick once or twice
| before they start taking action. It isn't hard to
| disconnect internet cables (shut down all internet and
| force the operators to use personal cell phones...).
|
| Likewise, water processing is mostly pumps. Even better,
| any competent town has backup generators and they keep a
| few days of fuel on hand, so even if you get the grid
| down there is water, and the system can function without
| internet.
|
| That isn't to say you can't annoy life for everyone.
| However state collapse won't happen because of that. More
| likely you firm up the resolve to fight.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| https://www.timesofisrael.com/cyber-attacks-again-hit-
| israel...
|
| here's a scenario.
| jeffreyrogers wrote:
| That talks about poisoning hundreds of people, which
| would be a tragedy, but not all that unusual for a war.
| Hundreds of people dying is hardly going to decide a war.
|
| Edit: My point isn't that cyberattacks can't cause real
| damage. They can and there are many examples of them
| doing that already. My point is that they aren't enough
| to win a war because they are by their nature specialized
| and restricted in scope.
| null_deref wrote:
| Most of the Israeli population doesn't live in the desert.
| mam2 wrote:
| the point was "with not so much natural ressources"
| dagav wrote:
| More than half of Israel's land area is desert. It's quite
| hard to develop a nation in the desert.
| rowanseymour wrote:
| It's also part of mythology of Israel that it was built on
| an empty wasteland, and not on the ashes of Palestinian
| villages and farms.
| dagav wrote:
| I'd like to propose a new law of the internet: Anti-
| Zionists cannot see a post about Israel without making a
| comment about the Palestinians. Weren't we talking about
| land area?
| rowanseymour wrote:
| That's because you see my comment as ideological but _It
| 's quite hard to develop a nation in the desert_ as not.
| dagav wrote:
| It is an objective fact that 55% of the land area of the
| State of Israel is the Negev desert.
| 0x49fa98 wrote:
| and where do most Israelis live?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel#Dens
| ity
| dagav wrote:
| Population centers are only one concern when you are
| building a nation. For example, where do you grow your
| food?
| SuperCuber wrote:
| Yep. Population density map: https://www.jewishvirtuallibra
| ry.org/jsource/images/maps/isr... almost all the population
| lives near the sea.
| lormayna wrote:
| Some years ago I had an interview from a cybersecurity startup
| founded by a member of 8200 unit. It was the worst process
| selection ever: they ask me to perform a demo (with my own
| hardware, in the nights and weekends) and at least 5 interviews
| with several VPs and company's key persons. The process seems
| going well, they made me lot of promises, they told me that we
| was only two in the final selection step, but suddendly they
| disappeared and they completely ghosted me. I send several emails
| to the HR but he did not reply. At the end, I mailed the
| headhunter that found me on LinkedIn and he told me that they
| took other decisions. This was very unpolite by them, I wasted
| lot of private time for nothing.
| helge9210 wrote:
| > In Israel, tech education can begin as early as middle school
|
| Actual selection starts in kindergarden. Various games and
| activities that select for ability to follow and understand the
| rules and so on. Results from kindergarden define class
| distribution in elementary. At the second grade kids do kind of
| IQ test (0-100). Those who scored 92-95 get selected for one-day-
| a-week development program. Those with 95-100 get selected to
| special schools. Every half a year each teacher fills a summary
| on each kid. The summary is added to general evaluation.
|
| By the time, they get to army, it's known precisely which unit is
| the best fit mentally and physically.
|
| Drawback of this system: if immigrant kid gets directly into high
| school without document trail, he is labeled as not smart. Goes
| directly to the Border Police. There is a special unit within the
| Border Policy for kids, who are smart and got there by mistake.
| In general border police are mentally challenged grunts unable to
| follow complex written instructions (anecdote: my collegue was
| treating in the field a border police soldier who lost an eye by
| shooting through the hole with label "Do not shoot through this
| hole, you'll lose an eye").
| throwaway210222 wrote:
| Odd this article doesn't mention the iSentry CCTV surveillance
| system.
|
| It literally identifies and tracks individual people all day.
|
| Spooky stuff.
| jackson1442 wrote:
| Do you have any more information about that? It sounds really
| interesting, and I think my family used to actually have
| iSentry cameras at an old house.
| smashah wrote:
| I'm glad that there is some internal opposition to the Israeli
| cyberterrorism trade. However, it is sad that K does not feel
| that they can come out openly about their position in famously
| the only democracy in the middle east.
|
| I don't think people understand the devastation caused by just
| one of NSO's sales. Every country should teach in school the true
| cost of their own arms trades.
|
| Depressingly it seems peace can only be found within a weapons
| contract. How long do we wait for stability and freedom? Which
| arms shareholder's bank balance needs to be satiated before we
| can have peace?
|
| This community is full of talented and privileged people, if you
| are reading this I compel you to not lift a single finger in the
| way of another person's demise - no matter how sophisticated the
| abstraction or large the paycheck.
| sagiegurari wrote:
| when you face extermination and terrorism maybe you will
| understand how the world works and what needs to be done to
| survive. peace sometimes comes from understanding of others
| strength.
| stefan_ wrote:
| Selling Turkey a WhatsApp 0day and operating the C&C servers
| for use in a war zone isn't contributing to peace and Israels
| survival, it's a war crime. NSO employees should probably be
| jailed the moment they leave the country.
| upbeat_general wrote:
| How justifying the actions you mentioned but how is that a
| war crime?
|
| Seems more like 'war' than a 'war crime'
| stefan_ wrote:
| If you are Raytheon and you sell someone a rocket, maybe
| come to their country and teach their personnel how to
| fire it, that's fine. When they decide to use it, you are
| not involved.
|
| That is decidedly not what NSO is doing. They run the C&C
| servers.
| TedDoesntTalk wrote:
| You are entitled to your own definition of what is and
| what is not a war crime, but the rest of the world is not
| obligated to agreed with you.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime
|
| Asssuming they are running C&C servers as you suggest,
| which international law of war did that break?
| stefan_ wrote:
| They are mercenaries, of course.
| NeverFade wrote:
| How about all the employees of all the other companies
| involved in the exact same activities?
|
| Sorry, I forgot, we're only targeting the Israelis.
| Literally the exact same action is tolerated when anyone
| else performs it, but when some Israeli company does, it's
| a "warcrime" and they must be "jailed".
|
| Chinese authorities are putting millions of minorities in
| prison re-education camps. Where are the calls to prosecute
| them for war-crimes? Nah, they just get thank-you notes in
| Disney movie credits, instead.
|
| https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/08/disney-thanked-groups-
| linked...
| techfoolery wrote:
| C'mon guy, that's not good faith argument. I have a whole
| twitter full of folks calling for war crimes against what
| China's doing; Not to mention, Disney got plenty of
| backlash for that move from the people paying attention.
| (Google Disney Xinjiang and it's so ubiquitous I don't
| feel the need to link myself)
|
| Seems your problem is more with mainstream media. You're
| deflecting from the argument at hand here. Not to
| mention, the wrongs of the Israeli cybersec industry,
| like with NSO group, seem much less covered than Xinjiang
| genocide (to me, but I'm sure there's ways to quantify
| the coverage differential)
| NeverFade wrote:
| My point is that there's a massive propaganda campaign
| targeted specifically at Israel. Many Western and non-
| Western nations are developing these kinds of tools. They
| are not at all unique to Israel. Yet again and again, we
| are exposed to publications targeting Israeli companies,
| specifically.
|
| This article doesn't even try to hide the fact that it is
| focused on Israel as a nation, while several other
| nations operate in this space.
|
| > _Disney got plenty of backlash for that move from the
| people paying attention_
|
| "So much backlash", yet nothing has been done. Mulan is
| still distributed, and that thank-you note to Chinese
| authorities who build and maintain massive prison camps
| is still there.
|
| It's almost like all these "moral concerns" are just
| thinly-veiled real politics.
| Cederfjard wrote:
| And the Israelis are also still going about their
| business without real obstruction from Western powers,
| aren't they, much like the Chinese?
| NeverFade wrote:
| Israeli private company created some surveillance tools,
| which is not illegal.
|
| Chinese state authorities imprisoned over a million
| minorities in prison camps, forcibly sterilizing women.
|
| False equivalence much?
| Cederfjard wrote:
| I'm staying out of the larger discussion, I was
| specifically talking about what you said:
|
| > "So much backlash", yet nothing has been done.
|
| I'm not sure that's a sound argument here, because
| nothing is "being done" about any of the actors
| mentioned, really.
| NeverFade wrote:
| Disney could remove that thank-you note from the Mulan
| credits. It didn't.
|
| That's the same Disney that takes action against any
| works in its catalog that have any trace of supposed
| racism.
|
| So, Disney tirelessly takes action against dubious subtle
| traces of racism in 60+ year old works, but won't take
| any action against real racism subjecting millions of
| people in China, right now. In fact it embraces this
| current racism.
|
| Why? Because Disney wants the lucrative Chinese market
| and needs to play nice, cooperate with, and sometimes
| even praise the CCP which operates these racist prison
| camps.
|
| So all the moral outrage against racism in the Muppets
| etc is just meaningless virtue signalling. Everyone is
| really doing what is in their best interest, but
| sometimes it is beneficial to dress that up for PR
| purposes.
|
| Which is my point.
| Cederfjard wrote:
| Agreed on all of those specifics, sure.
| cblconfederate wrote:
| Selling their systems to totalitarian governments like
| azerbaijan is wreaking havok and not advancing peace for
| israelis. with great power comes great responsibility, yet a
| lot of israelis play the amoral card in my experience
| DSingularity wrote:
| I wonder, would Israel face the violent opposition it faces
| today if Israel wasn't founded through the terrorization of,
| extermination of, and colonization of the indigenous
| Palestinian people? It is well documented and widely accepted
| that groups like the Irgun and Haganah --- led by many of
| Israels most celebrated figures -- resorted to terrorism and
| genocide to establish the supremacy of the Israelis.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| You're aware that the Israeli military openly purged
| extremist groups, yes? Those paramilitary orgs predated the
| state of Israel to fight the British.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair
| DSingularity wrote:
| Really? What do you make of former Irgun leader Menachem
| Begin? FYI he eventually became prime minister and is
| definitely a celebrated figure in Israel.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menachem_Begin
| shrubble wrote:
| How many from the (Lehi)/Stern Gang and Irgun, among
| others, later achieved high ranking political success in
| Israel? Both Begin and Shamir come to mind.
|
| Despite siding with the Nazis in WW2, Lehi membership was
| first granted a general amnesty and later an award was
| named in their honor.
| [deleted]
| celticninja wrote:
| when you face extermination and terrorism maybe you...
|
| Would think twice before creating tools for others to do this
| exact thing
| saiya-jin wrote:
| I think Germany in 30s had broadly a very similar mindset,
| being humiliated, driven to utter poverty, and they felt they
| were doing what was necessary to survive as a nation. I guess
| you don't hear that as an excuse for their WWII atrocities
| often.
|
| In other situation it would be funny to point direct
| parallels between above and state of Israel, but this ain't
| even slightly funny topic. They achieved impressive things,
| but these kind of actions make them lose any moral points
| pretty quickly.
| sagiegurari wrote:
| humiliation is something very different! and you are
| comparing what israel does to nazi germany? nice
| mola wrote:
| That's such a straw man. You don't have to build a huge
| commercial industry around the tech we make for our
| intelligence bureaus. The Israeli intelligence has become a
| way for greedy people to become billionaires at the price of
| killing democracy.
|
| I'm Israeli, and I know a lot of people in this industry. I
| know many people like me who actively refuse to work on
| active offensive cyber solutions because of moral reasons.
|
| OTH I see many greedy people working in NSO and the only
| thing they think about is money. They don't give a damn about
| positive or negative consequences of the industry they work
| in.
| _alxk wrote:
| how does selling spyware to authoritarian regimes to
| crackdown on opposition and activists have anything to do
| with their own survival?
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| It helps fund new research. It's not exactly rocket
| science. Do you have any better complaints?
| sagiegurari wrote:
| the people work there usually start in areas of
| intelligence as stated. at that field, all work is done for
| protection.
|
| ignoring that is naive. not sure why even comment, most of
| the people here lack basic understanding of reality of life
| here. when you run with your kids for shelter from
| missiles, we will talk
| _alxk wrote:
| first of all, half my family are war refugees from a
| field that is way more dangerous than Israel has been in
| the last 20 years, so let's talk.
|
| you're making a ridiculous leap from "worked in
| intelligence for the government" to "starts selling
| spyware to the worst human rights abusers in the planet".
| it just looks to me like you're in the camp of "my
| country can do no wrong".
|
| I'm also British and feel fine openly criticizing my
| government for selling weapons to the Saudis.
| Daho0n wrote:
| Sad how different this reads if you look at it as written by
| a Muslim or Jew. I wish it made no difference.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| To me, it doesn't. The people in a position to do this kind
| of thing are not the same people as are facing the
| oppression.
| smashah wrote:
| You don't know me. And I don't know you.
|
| But "We face extermination therefore we should be able to get
| rich by selling our (cyber)weapons to despots who in turn use
| it against their own citizens" doesn't sound like a winning
| argument.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| If you phrase it like that, then no. how about "We face
| extermination, therefore we shall train soldiers who will
| work for us for a while, they will be able to make a living
| after their service using those skills"
| smashah wrote:
| >they will be able to make a living
|
| They can, and many have made a "living" by moving on to
| working on normal tech startups.
|
| Nobody needs to make a killing to make a "living".
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| The Multibillion dollar global defense industry refutes
| you.
| smashah wrote:
| Not sure about you, but I don't concede any moral
| authority to "The Multibillion dollar global defense
| industry" so the refutation is invalid to say the least.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| I do. warfare breeds innovation via the military
| industry, jets, computers, internet, radar, advanced etc
| etc etc etc, All of which were catalyzed by warfare.
|
| You don't need to like it, but you probably wouldn't be
| able to let me know without acknowledging it.
| smashah wrote:
| Wow.
|
| The industry has technological authority, but that
| doesn't mean it is owed a moral authority.
|
| Just how (I hope) you wouldn't give moral authority to a
| grooming gang just because they're super efficient in
| their trafficking techniques.
| NeverFade wrote:
| How many cybersurveillance tools are developed and sold by
| companies in the US, China, Russia, UK, and quite a few
| other nations?
|
| But let's focus on Israel again, always the safe scapegoat.
| smashah wrote:
| Easy one. Nobody should be selling these things to anyone
| else. Everyone should keep their weapons to themselves.
| If you are able to make it, well done now you have that
| upper hand in that arena. Cant make it? Sorry you can't
| buy it. Making it and have surplus? Sorry can't sell it -
| do something useful for society with all that brain
| power.
| NeverFade wrote:
| Right, "nobody should", but everyone does. And somehow
| we're again laser-focused on just the Israelis who do it.
| I wonder why.
| smashah wrote:
| Oh I see where the confusion lies. This article is about
| the cyberterrorism companies inside the state of Israel,
| that's why. If you have articles where other countries
| are doing this (which of course they are) then please tag
| me and I will gladly condemn them also.
| PoignardAzur wrote:
| I don't want to do whataboutism and I completely agree that
| international arms trade is a seriously evil, especially with the
| kind of partners the article mentions...
|
| But I really don't like the overall tone of the article and the
| way it paints Israel as uniquely nefarious. Eg:
|
| > _In the Israeli cyberweapon sector, he argues, "the companies
| are implementing government policy." Mack says Israeli companies
| are not truly private, like their European or American
| counterparts. "Israel has so much military sensitivity" that, in
| effect, many of these cyberweapon sales are "military agreements
| between governments."_
|
| Oh please.
|
| You will never find an arm sales from French, British or American
| companies that wasn't mediated on some level by their respective
| government.
|
| In France the top executives of weapons companies (eg Dassault,
| Thales) often come from the same school (ENA) as the political
| elite, and are always well connected to whoever the current
| president and ministers are. Thales in particular is owned at 25%
| by the government.
|
| Israel plays the same game everyone else in the world plays, they
| just happen to have a more immediate stake in it. Any discussion
| of weapon sales that doesn't mention the broader picture is
| misleading at best.
| t0mmyb0y wrote:
| Once they are officially seen as an apartheid state it will all
| go away.
| albntomat0 wrote:
| Is there any sense of how many 8200-grad founded companies are in
| the "sketchy" side (not sure what other word to use) of cyber-
| security?
|
| The article mentions 4, and implies the rest of the 700 mentioned
| are similar.
| fay59 wrote:
| What is non-sketchy offensive cyber-security to you?
| Un1corn wrote:
| Selling services for democracies that will use it for counter
| terrorism? There are legitimate use for offensive cyber
| security
| albntomat0 wrote:
| > A 2018 study cited by Haaretz estimated that 80% of the
| 2,300 people who founded Israel's 700 cybersecurity companies
| had come through IDF intelligence.
|
| The specific quote is that 8200 grads have founded a large
| number of cyber security companies in general, and the
| article follows by discussing specific offensive and
| surveillance ones (NSO, etc.). My read of the article is that
| it implies that most of the 700 companies are similar. The
| link for the study links to a paywalled article about the
| survey.
|
| Since defensive cyber security is a bigger market, I'd like
| to know if 8200 grads found offensive companies at a
| significantly higher rate than defensive ones.
| underdeserver wrote:
| I follow the field, and I'd say defensive companies (anti
| malware, intrusion detection, monitoring, anti fraud etc.)
| outnumber offensive companies 100-to-1.
| whearyou wrote:
| Is it just me or are Israel related threads getting brigaded
| recently?
| secfirstmd wrote:
| _Similarly, K. says much of the work he did inside Unit 8200 is
| far from the sophisticated spyware that's so often trumpeted.
| "Most Israelis think that intelligence is pure and slick," he
| says. He came to see IDF intelligence as blunt, dirty work. "Old
| school things," he says. Like blackmailing gay Palestinians, he
| explains. Or threatening to cut off medical care from people with
| health problems. Or threatening the families of people with
| health problems. But when it comes to criticism of 8200, K. is an
| anomaly among his peers. Many are more like Raphael Ouzan -- true
| believers._
| joshgoldman wrote:
| These are exaggerated lies, save the conspiracies for Reddit, not
| here.
| keyme wrote:
| Laughably biased. I actually LOL'd when seeing that all of the
| photos in the article are of Palestinian border regions.
| frashelaw wrote:
| They are blatantly an apartheid state, when you call it
| "laughably biased" you are implicitly taking the side of the
| settler-colonialist aggression against the people living their,
| placing them under siege and military occupation.
| gataca wrote:
| Using buzzwords as thought-terminating cliches. You seem
| angry that Israel managed to defeat its self-declared enemies
| - people who explicitly attempted genocide and failed. Seems
| like you "are implicitly taking the side of jihadist
| eliminationist aggression against the people living there".
| radycov wrote:
| The only ethnic cleansing genocide is against the
| Palestinians who have their land and sea borders occupied,
| patrolled and militarily enforced at checkpoints. Try that
| with me, and I certainly will revolt violently. No offense,
| but these are plain accurate facts and common sense.
| high_byte wrote:
| > As K. recalls, the recruitment pitch directed toward him was
| more about the "caressing of ego." He was told: "You're the best.
| We chose you. You're one in a million. Most people can't handle
| this job. You're a genius."
|
| 8200-alumni, can confirm lol.
| BitwiseFool wrote:
| What was the process like, if you don't mind me asking? How did
| they 'discover' you and your talents?
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Low health profile, single child...
| SuperCuber wrote:
| IDF has a whole process for examination and selection of
| people into various roles. You usually get an invitation for
| an exam if you majored in CS in school and you can also
| request one.
| high_byte wrote:
| for the average person, if you studied computer science in
| school or something like that, they refer you to intelligence
| unit tests, and they refer you to whatever sub-
| unit/team/squad/center/agency call it whatever. it's similar
| to big corporations where they say "get me 50 specialists of
| X Y and Z by next year" and then managers of X, Y and Z rock-
| paper-scissors it.
|
| also before you are being recruited, you are asked to list
| preferences. then in intelligence again, what are your
| interests, etc. I guess I aced the tests because I went
| through so many of them, should've focused only on what I
| actually wanted. it goes without saying it's not odd for them
| not to give a fuck about your preferences.
| eli_gottlieb wrote:
| LOL, sounds like if Google or Palantir weren't even pretending
| not to be evil.
| distribot wrote:
| Do you find pretty universal recognition of unit 8200 among
| American companies at this point? Most recruiters and hiring
| managers must be somewhat familiar by now, no?
| high_byte wrote:
| definitely at least when it comes to cyber security.
| dogma1138 wrote:
| 8200/8153 on a CV is a pretty much guaranteed interview
| regardless of experience, if nothing else than out of sheer
| curiosity, that also holds true in Europe these days.
|
| That said outside of Israel it's essentially impossible to
| validate, I actually wonder how many people take advantage of
| that, 8200 is huge it's the largest (single) unit in the IDF
| (tho 8200 is technically the command level unit number, there
| are numerous sub units under it) it won't be that hard to
| simply lie especially to a foreign company.
| dls2016 wrote:
| It's kind of hilarious because the big lesson I learned in the
| US military is that they have a great system for
| coordinating/motivating a whole bunch of average people into
| doing "big" things.
|
| I use this to motivate myself to this day... "well I was born a
| perhaps slightly above-average schlub... if those other people
| can succeed then with a bit of persistence so can I."
|
| Maybe I've been going about it all wrong!
| high_byte wrote:
| great as in big, not as in good (what's good anyway?). it's
| idea inception for the masses, same for military, same for
| religion...
|
| it's all about intentions. when you do it, you know your
| intentions. when it's foreign interest it's another story.
| dls2016 wrote:
| great as in successful... their management system is
| successful in doing big things
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| When I was in the last few months of tech school, Ft. Meade
| recruited our class. Apparently, the school had a deal with
| them.
|
| I decided not to pursue. I wasn't particularly thrilled with
| being a janitor for six months, while they cleared me.
|
| These days, I doubt they'd touch me with a ten-foot pole. Young
| folks are clean slates. Us old farts are baggage, personified.
| No "red flags," but I'm also really cynical, and they'd have a
| hard time getting me to jump through their hoops.
| avipars wrote:
| what about other tech units in the IDF/IAF
| high_byte wrote:
| IDGAF.
|
| just kidding, it's the same from what I hear and see. usually
| 8200 have it better, it's supposedly most "elite"... but
| other units have it easier so...
| dogma1138 wrote:
| 81.. > 8200 ;)
| xyzelement wrote:
| This is really straight forward - a nation's economic activity is
| always going to be shaped by its military policy and investment.
|
| For example - the US dominance in fields like internet,
| electronics and aviation is probably directly related to the
| investment the country has made in related fields for military
| reasons. Once you have a manufacturing base and labor force that
| knows how to do X, they will do it commercially.
|
| Israel is a small nation of well educated people which is
| consistently dealing with external existential threads. Of course
| its military strategy is going to be intelligence-based (rather
| pre-empt on pin-point basis rather than go to all out war down
| the road.) And then of course people will graduate from that
| military experience of using computers for broad data analysis
| and look to put it to commercial use. This manifests in cyber
| security and ad tec and plenty of other civilian uses like
| medical imaging. None of this is particularly malign or
| surprising. It comes down to - if you have a large labor force
| who can do X, and there are subsets of X you don't like, there's
| going to be some proportion of what the country does that you
| won't like.
| solosoyokaze wrote:
| You're missing the _why_ Israel is "consistently dealing with
| external existential threats". It's because they are engaging
| in aggressive, illegal and amoral behavior that is causing
| others to retaliate. The espionage mentioned in this article is
| just one of many dirty tricks they are using to prop up their
| apartheid state.
| abstractbarista wrote:
| I used to believe there should be a Palestine and an Israel.
| But, they both want something that they are totally unwilling
| to share with the other. Furthermore, one has technologically
| and culturally dominated the other.
|
| Thus, it's time to give up. Israel has won.
| rowanseymour wrote:
| Israel has won in the sense that a two state solution is no
| longer an option. There's not enough land left to give the
| Palestinians a viable state of their own. So that leaves
| two options. A continuation of the status quo with
| Palestinians living under eternal occupation and apartheid
| surrounded by growing settlements. Or a single state with
| equal rights for all.
| dbspin wrote:
| Unfortunately that's not an option available to the
| Palestinians. You don't get to have a one-state solution
| when you're effectively held prisoner in an apartheid
| occupied territory.
| nostromo wrote:
| "Might makes right" is a pretty grim worldview.
|
| Besides, the dominant player here is only dominant because
| of other colonial powers, namely the US.
| howmayiannoyyou wrote:
| Time to cancel this thread. Haters and flamers having too
| much fun.
| ganzuul wrote:
| That is time-tested method for suppressing discourse. Are
| you sure you want that?
| zucker42 wrote:
| That's a very one-sided explanation. I'm not saying that
| Israel are the "good guys" but there's more to their
| conflicts with their neighbors than just Israeli aggression.
| solosoyokaze wrote:
| Only if you believe that Israel's occupation of Palestine
| is legitimate. In 1948 we knew better that to create a new
| colonization project (or should have).
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
| zucker42 wrote:
| You're changing arguments. Your first comment was phrased
| in present tense and was about current Israeli
| aggression. Now you are supporting your one-sided view by
| claiming the original settlement was illegitimate.
|
| The reality is at some point you have to move past
| history to make the best decision _now_. It 's neither
| moral nor practical to uproot or kill the people
| currently living in Israel because the original
| settlement was wrong or misguided.
|
| Palastinian claims over Israel make as much sense as
| Taiwanese claims over mainland China (or PRC claims over
| Taiwan). And I say that as someone who is very against
| continued aggression from Israel and for recognition of a
| Palastinian state.
| solosoyokaze wrote:
| My argument is consistent. Israel was an illegally
| created colony and it continues its illegal expansion.
|
| I strongly disagree that we should just give up on
| stopping the Palestinian colonization. For example, one
| concrete thing that is absolutely politically attainable
| would be to completely cut the US funding sent to Israel
| (billions of dollars a year).
|
| I do not think a colony that's less than 100 years old
| has to be taken "as a given".
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| Colony definition:
|
| a country or area under the full or partial political
| control of another country and occupied by settlers from
| that country. Which country is controlling and settling
| the Israel? It's not a colony you are thinking of, at
| best you can claim it's a part-invasion part-colony, but
| you are not. you are saying that its _all_ a colony. so
| you are wrong.
| solosoyokaze wrote:
| There is no requirement that the colonizers be from a
| single country. The US is certainly playing part in the
| colonization by funding Israel. The UK also played a huge
| role in the creation of Israel. The point is that the
| colonizers of Israel were not from Palestine, then they
| created a nation over the top of someone else's land and
| have aggressively expanded the borders of that nation.
|
| > at best you can claim it's a part-invasion part-colony
|
| I think that's a pretty apt description actually. You
| have to invade a place before you colonize it.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| Aggressively expanded? they gave Gaza away!
| sahyooni wrote:
| Attacks on Jews in Israel and the greater Middle East
| pre-dates 1948. The creation of the State of Israel is
| one justified response to the attacks.
|
| Attacks on Jewish migrants and natives in the Middle East
| was never justified, unless you are anti-immigrant in
| general. Are you one of those anti-Latino Republicans?
| snypher wrote:
| Immigrant would imply moving to an existing country.
| Please don't confuse this with Israel. Israel is engaging
| in colonialism, the practice of acquiring full or partial
| political control over another country, occupying it with
| settlers, and exploiting it economically.
| NeverFade wrote:
| From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonialism :
|
| > Colonialism is where one country assumes political
| control over another, often by establishing colonies and
| generally with the aim of economic dominance.
|
| The Jews after WWII weren't a country. They were a group
| of refugees and holocaust survivors. They created a
| country for themselves in Israel since they had nowhere
| else to go. Comparing them to rich powerful nations like
| the British Empire, which took over other nations to gain
| even more wealth and power, is dishonest propaganda.
|
| Per the definition, Israel is not a colony.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| >They created a country for themselves in Israel
|
| This is where this breaks down. Without support from
| Britain, France, and the United States the Palestinian
| majority would not have allowed the formation of Israel.
|
| There are slight differences from traditional
| colonialism, as there are a few countries working
| together and the colonists aren't necessarily from those
| countries. But it still broadly fits that definition.
| NeverFade wrote:
| As I've addressed in previous comments: none of these
| nations actually helped Israel at all in its early days.
|
| The British in fact actively fought against the formation
| of Israel, by forcibly preventing incoming Jewish
| immigration, and actively fighting against the Jewish
| defense groups that were to be the Jews' only defense
| against the Arabs who attacked them once the Brits left
| in 1948:
|
| https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-
| restrictions-on...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandat
| ory...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939
|
| The US enforced an arms embargo against Israel starting
| from 1948, and only became its ally after it won a major
| victory in 1967, proving it to be a valuable regional
| ally.
|
| Still, the main point is that this isn't colonialism,
| because Israel isn't a colony of any sort of other
| country or power.
| boomboomsubban wrote:
| >Jewish immigration, and actively fighting against the
| Jewish defense groups that were to be the Jews' only
| defense against the Arabs who attacked them once the
| Brits left in 1948:
|
| Yes, while they were fine maintaining their empire they
| opposed a Jewish state. Sometime during or after the war
| their policy shifted as they would rather not give such
| prime land over to a group certain to be bitter over
| their very recent mistreatment. Better to support the
| colonization of outsiders and make them dependent on you
| militarily.
|
| And as for the US, you ignore their role in stopping the
| 1948 war, their role in the Tripartite alliance, and
| Kennedy's beginning of the military alliance.
| [deleted]
| NeverFade wrote:
| The nation of Israel was attacked by 7 Arab countries
| literally the day it was founded:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
|
| Jews seek refuge from Antisemitism in their historic
| homeland, immediately get attacked by 7 nations. But this is
| all their fault, of course.
|
| > _The espionage mentioned in this article is just one of
| many dirty tricks they are using to prop up their apartheid
| state._
|
| Right, all these Jews in Israel are using "many dirty
| tricks". Thanks for demonstrating, once again, that biased
| attacks against Israel are heavily laced with Antisemitism.
| bit_flip wrote:
| "The nation of Israel was attacked by 7 Arab countries
| literally the day it was founded".
|
| So a bunch of foreign powers come in and take land off you
| and create a new nation state overnight and you're supposed
| to just be chill!? Yeah - no shit they were attacked.
|
| I'm not anti-Israel btw. Not in the slightest. I just find
| it funny that ppl act so shocked that - what was
| effectively an invasion - was not well received by the
| locals living in the region in the mid 20th century.
|
| "But it's their homeland..." Yeah I'd love to see how
| Americans would react if China/Russia came in overnight and
| carved out a new action state to give to Native Americans
| cause it was their homeland hundreds of years ago...
| josh_fyi wrote:
| Foreign powers did not create Israel. Jews did.
|
| > carved out a new action state to give to Native
| Americans I rather like the idea that Native Americans
| could have their own country if they choose, as Jews do
| now, something better than reservations. China and Russia
| have nothing to do with it.
| arken wrote:
| Forgive me, but that's a pretty one sided view to take.
|
| The local Jewish population was certainly instrumental as
| were Zionist groups in the UK and elsewhere. But you're
| fooling yourself if you think great power diplomacy and
| the region's colonial history weren't also important
| factors.
|
| I'd encourage you to look into the history of the British
| mandate, the Balfour Declaration, and the lead up to the
| 1947 Partition Plan/1948 War. It's a fascinating story if
| nothing else.
| NeverFade wrote:
| The British mandate authorities outlawed all Jewish
| defense forces and tried to confiscate all arms from the
| Jewish population before they left the region. They also
| actively prevented Jews from immigrating to Israel:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_insurgency_in_Mandat
| ory...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939
|
| https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/british-
| restrictions-on...
|
| To claim that the British were "a foreign power" that
| helped the budding nation of Israel is, simply put, the
| opposite of historical fact.
| arken wrote:
| That doesn't mean the British state played _no_ role. Are
| you saying the Balfour Declaration had no impact on
| developments in the region from 1917-1947?
|
| I'm not saying the formation of Israel was 100% the
| result of intentional British foreign policy. Foreign
| policy is messy and inconsistent. The various actors in
| the region were seeking different things at different
| times.
|
| Yes the British were in some cases trying to disarm
| Jewish militants, but in many cases they were also the
| ones who had handed out the arms in the first place (eg.
| The Jewish Brigade).
|
| I don't see how you can dispute that this a messy,
| contested historical saga with many factors to consider.
|
| I urge you to read more widely on this topic. If you're
| so certain that your position is the correct one, you
| stand only to confirm your existing beliefs.
| NeverFade wrote:
| > _Are you saying the Balfour Declaration had no impact
| on developments in the region from 1917-1947?_
|
| Not much, no. It was largely a symbolic act. Actual
| British policy remained hostile to the establishment of a
| Jewish state in Israel.
|
| The fact is, that besides this exceptional, purely
| symbolic act, the British Empire as a foreign power did
| all it could to _prevent_ the successful establishment of
| a Jewish nation in Israel.
|
| > _The Jewish Brigade_
|
| The Jewish Brigade was part of the _British Army_ , a
| brigade of Jewish volunteers.
|
| It is true that some individuals who served in that
| brigade ended up joining Israeli groups that eventually
| formed the IDF, but these were _individual_ acts by
| _individuals_ , and by no means an expression of a policy
| by the British Empire or any other foreign power.
|
| > _I urge you to read more widely on this topic._
|
| I'm not sure well read _you_ are on the topic, when your
| only example of a "foreign power" helping the nation of
| Israel in its inception is... the Jewish Brigade.
|
| Did you know it was a brigade of individual volunteers
| within the British Army? If you did, I don't think you'd
| cite it as an example.
|
| You didn't cite any other example, either.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| https://sofrep.com/news/orde-wingate-special-night-
| squads-id...
| NeverFade wrote:
| From your link:
|
| > In September of 1936, Wingate was posted to Palestine
| as an intelligence officer with the British Mandate. His
| obsession with the Bible had a profound effect on his
| views during this posting, turning him into an ardent
| Zionist and supporter of the idea of a Jewish state.
|
| So this is yet another example of individual actions
| based on his personal convictions, _not_ of the British
| Empire acting at the state level.
|
| Compare that to the British official support of other
| military and paramilitary groups, such as the Arab
| Legion:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Legion
|
| These examples shows substantial evidence for the British
| Empire itself formally supporting groups that _fought_
| Israel. Indeed the Arab Legion was among the chief
| military forces to attack Israel in 1948:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bagot_Glubb
|
| > During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the Arab Legion was
| considered the strongest Arab army involved in the
| war.[3] Glubb led the Arab Legion across the River Jordan
| to occupy the West Bank (May 1948). Despite some
| negotiation and understanding between the Jewish Agency
| and King Abdullah, severe fighting took place in Kfar
| Etzion massacre (May 1948), Jerusalem and Latrun (May-
| July 1948).
|
| John Bagot Glubb was a British officer in official
| capacity leading a force trained and commanded by other
| British officers to a fight against Israel.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| It certainly appears that it was individual action
| instead of state policy, but it did occur with state
| sanction:
|
| > Wingate quickly conceived of a joint military unit,
| staffed by both colonial and local Jewish troops, to
| protect Jewish and British interests, and took the idea
| to Lieutenant-General Archibald Wavell, the commander of
| British forces in Palestine. Wavell, intrigued, granted
| Wingate his permission to set up such a unit. Wingate
| then pitched the unit to the Jewish Agency and directly
| to the Haganah ("the defense"), the pre-state Israeli
| military. The Agency, which originally opposed the idea,
| eventually had a change of heart, and in June of 1938,
| the Plugot Ha'Layla Ha'Meyuchadot, the Special Night
| Squads, were born.
|
| And it sounds like even if it went against the letter of
| state policy, it certainly fulfilled the spirit of it, at
| least in other areas of colonial control:
|
| > The SNS fulfilled a dual purpose that likely aided its
| establishment within a colonial administration opposed to
| the idea of a Jewish state in Palestine: Though it indeed
| fought against armed Arab insurgents who rose up in
| increasingly violent acts against British forces and
| against the Jewish yishuv (the settlement in Palestine),
| the unit's stated purpose Wingate may have given to his
| superiors was to protect the oil pipelines of the Iraq
| Petroleum Company. The southern of two pipelines (the
| "TAPline") which spanned Iraq to the Mediterranean ran
| for over 1,000 km from Mosul to Haifa, on the coast of
| British-controlled Palestine, and moved over 4 million
| tons of oil per year (between two lines) prior to the
| Second World War. This line was increasingly being bombed
| and sabotaged by Arab bands throughout the revolt, and as
| it ran through the Lower Galilee on its course to the
| sea, Wingate could easily patrol its length with the SNS
| from his base in Ein Harod.
| NeverFade wrote:
| From your quote just now
|
| > Wingate quickly conceived of a joint military unit,
| staffed by both colonial and local Jewish troops, to
| _protect Jewish and British interests_
|
| The SNS were founded to "protect Jewish and British
| interests" which were attacked by the Arabs under the
| British Mandate. At no point did the British government
| start any group, or take any action, to aid the creation
| of Israel as a independent nation.
|
| At most, you can claim that they sometimes tried to
| defend the Jews under their mandate from violent Arab
| attacks.
|
| Compare that to the official British government's actions
| in creation the nation of Jordan and founding the Arab
| Legion, and it's clearly much easier to argue that the
| British Empire helped create and support the nation of
| Jordan, while doing nothing for Israel, and in fact
| creating, training, and commanding one of the major
| military forces which attacked it after inception.
| 0x49fa98 wrote:
| that must be why the Mizrahi are treated so well in their
| own country
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mizrahi_Jews#Disparities_an
| d_i...
| NeverFade wrote:
| Love it when a bunch of new users join the discussion to
| spread anti-Israeli propaganda.
|
| Israel isn't perfect, and has its own internal tensions,
| much like the US, UK, Canada, Australia, and basically
| every other nation.
|
| Trying to use these tensions as a wholesale argument
| against Israel is like claiming Sweden is an illegitimate
| country since it's going through social tensions and
| unrest due to immigration right now.
| captain_price7 wrote:
| > Love it when a bunch of new users join the discussion
| to spread anti-Israeli propaganda.
|
| You've made like 10 comments in this thread. I'm not
| accusing you of anything. But before you accuse others of
| "propaganda", maybe take a look at yourself and see who's
| behaving somewhat suspiciously in this thread.
| zthrowaway wrote:
| Participating in a discussion on a topic you have
| knowledge around is suspicious now?
| NeverFade wrote:
| I've made probably 30 comments in the last thread in
| which I participated, which had exactly zero to do with
| Israel. Unlike these new users, I have a history of
| comments on the site, and I have not joined today just to
| engage in this very specific thread.
|
| Yet you try to paint me as the suspicious one...
| flyinglizard wrote:
| Jews were not invaders. Jews were their neighbors. See
| the 1929 Hebron massacre as an example.
| NeverFade wrote:
| > _So a bunch of foreign powers_
|
| What "bunch of foreign powers", exactly?
|
| Have a look at that Wikipedia article. No other "power"
| was fighting for Israel, as it was attacked by Egypt,
| Transjordan, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and
| Yemen.
|
| This narrative of "invasion" and "stealing land" is
| entirely false and irrelevant to 1948. Iraq doesn't share
| a border with Israel, neither do Saudi Arabia or Yemen.
| Israel also didn't claim any territory from any of the
| others.
|
| It was just tribal warfare, pure and simple. The Arabs
| didn't like the Jews, so they attacked them.
|
| Folks like to assume that Israel was "helped" by various
| "foreign powers", notably the US. The reality? Not only
| did the US not help, but Israel was under a US arms
| embargo since its inception in 1948. The alliance between
| the US and Israel only started when Israel decisively won
| the 1967 war, because at that point the US figured it was
| in its best interest to ally with Israel.
| bit_flip wrote:
| Poor choice of words on my part. I meant British
| occupation of the region at the time and a promise by the
| British of the establishment of a home for Jewish ppl in
| the region.
|
| As I mentioned in my earlier post, I'm not anti-Israel.
| Im saying that ppl shouldn't be shocked that there was a
| hostile response by neighboring Arab nations when Jewish
| ppl asserted their claim to a new state in the region.
|
| Basically what I did a terrible job of trying to get at
| is - that Israel isn't special. Try create a new state
| anywhere and ppl around that area will get mad, doubly so
| if your beliefs don't align.
| NeverFade wrote:
| > _and a promise by the British of the establishment of a
| home for Jewish ppl in the region._
|
| That promise meant next to nothing. The British actually
| tried to confiscate all the weapons held by the Jewish
| population before leaving Israel. They fully expected
| (and arguably, intended and hoped) that the Jews would
| lose to the Arabs in the ensuing war.
|
| > _Im saying that ppl shouldn't be shocked_
|
| I think people "shouldn't be shocked" by the 1948 attack,
| and the many ensuing attacks, because the Middle East is
| a tribal region, has been such for centuries, and the
| Jews are a minority there. The Middle East has been an
| arena of ethnic and religious conflict for over 2,000
| years, after all.
| golemiprague wrote:
| Take land from who? The land was under ottoman rule for
| 400 years before the British mandate and had a consistent
| Jewish presence there since biblical times. Most of the
| so called "Palestinians" are not native to the land, many
| of them were "undocumented" immigrants which moved there
| after the Jews started to redevelop the area by buying
| land, unlike the Arabs who took everything by force, not
| to mention the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the whole of
| the middle east that is not Israel.
|
| In general Arabs are invaders and colonialists in the
| Levant which was always part of the fertile crescent and
| the Mediterranean rather than connected to the desert
| Arabs. The hate to Israel is purely based on religion and
| tribalism and started long before Israel was formed.
| mudil wrote:
| Not just that. But Jews lived all over the Middle East and
| now they all been expelled, most into Israel. (Similar
| story is still being played with Christians of the Middle
| East.)
| diebeforei485 wrote:
| It's pretty much irrelevant what happened in 1948. The
| status quo is very different.
| NeverFade wrote:
| The roots of the Arab-Israeli conflict were all laid out
| in 1948 and the years immediately preceding it. 1948 also
| reflects the attitude that Israel's neighbors have
| repeatedly taken towards it, namely: trying to destroy
| it.
|
| Israel was attacked again in 1973, 1991, 2006. They
| suffer regular rocket and terror attacks to this day.
|
| It's also hard to blame all aggression in the region on
| the Israeli (Jews) when we recall that they were attacked
| by all neighboring nations as soon as they tried to find
| refuge in Israel, before there was any history of
| hostility.
|
| Simply put: Israel's neighbors targeted it for
| destruction from day 0.
| 0x49fa98 wrote:
| if you're so obsessed with 1948 you should consider
| reaffirming the original peace agreement.
|
| http://www.auphr.org/index.php/news/5218-mapcard
| davidf18 wrote:
| Those like me who want peace want to ensure that nations
| which attack other nations lose land when they do so.
|
| Germany after WWI lost Alsace-Lorraine to France. After
| WWII Germany lost Upper Silesia to Poland. After WWII
| Japan lost Sakhalin Island to Russia.
|
| Arabs and Palestinians repeatedly attacked Israel, a
| country resurrected from 2000 years ago. Visitors to
| Israel can go to the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and see
| the ruins of the 2nd Temple which was destroyed by the
| Romans.
|
| In 1948 the Palestinians and 7 Arab nations followed the
| leadership of "The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem" who had
| spent WWII as a guest of Hitlers's in Berlin.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-
| Husseini#/media/File:B...
| solosoyokaze wrote:
| It's worth reading about the founding of Israel:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration
|
| It's been a colonization project since inception and it
| continues to this day. Antisemitism is not an excuse to
| colonize others and commit human rights violations.
| paganel wrote:
| That happened 70+ years ago, we have had a genocide as
| recently as the 1990s back here in Europe [1] and
| nevertheless the country that got out of that tragedy
| doesn't feel like it's in an "existential threat" (I'm
| talking about BiH).
|
| From some point on (I'm betting on the second part of the
| 1990s, after the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin) parts of
| the Israeli establishment decided that it's more worth it
| to double-down on the "existential threat" discourse
| because it was good for business instead of really wanting
| a way out for everyone involved (including the
| Palestinians), and here we are almost 30 years after the
| Oslo accords, no end in sight for the tragedy that happens
| to the Palestinian people, to say nothing of the Israeli
| citizens that have to live in a constant state of war.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre
| NeverFade wrote:
| Israel is threatened with destruction right now, for
| example by Iran, Hezbollah, and Syria.
|
| In 2006, Hezbollah fired rockets and missiles at Israeli
| population centers. Hamas in Gaza has fired rockets at
| Israeli civilians literally every year since 2001:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_
| on_...
|
| Top Iranian officials are constantly going on-record
| about their intention to destroy Israel:
|
| https://apnews.com/article/a033042303545d9ef783a95222d51b
| 83
|
| Iran is a nation with over x7 the population of Israel,
| which is also trying to develop nuclear weapons.
|
| It's very easy to dismiss existential concerns when you
| live in Europe that has been one of the most peaceful
| regions on Earth for the past 30 years. Try doing that as
| an Israeli civilian in a bomb shelter, hearing
| Hezbollah/Hamas rockets explode in your city. That's the
| reality for millions of Israeli civilians today.
| accounted wrote:
| Isreal bombards Gaza with missiles and chemical weapons,
| and continuously fires at Syria taking advantage of the
| "moderate rebels" it and its allies sponsor. Meanwhile,
| they continue to evict 60 year old men from their homes
| and arrest children. Not to mention Isreal has nuclear
| weapons but refuses to comply with any international
| treaties.
|
| "In the fighting, 2,251 Palestinians, including 1,462
| civilians, were killed while on the Israeli side 67
| soldiers and six civilians were killed."
| https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-56249927
|
| "It is among just four countries that have never joined
| the Non-Proliferation Treaty, a landmark international
| accord meant to stop the spread of nuclear arms."
| https://apnews.com/article/secret-israel-nuclear-
| constructio...
|
| https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/1/15/israel-evicting-
| pal...
| NeverFade wrote:
| I'm sorry that I'm not going to respond to outright false
| claims, such that Israel used "chemical weapons" in Gaza,
| especially when you are at the same breath apparently
| defending Syria, which has been proved to use chemical
| weapons against civilians multiple times.
| monocasa wrote:
| Is white phosphorus a chemical weapon?
|
| https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-
| intelli...
|
| Did Israel use white phosphorus on civilian tarets in
| gaza?
|
| https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2009/01/israel-
| used-w...
|
| Doesn't seem "outright false" to me.
| helge9210 wrote:
| > when you live in Europe that has been one of the most
| peaceful regions on Earth for the past 30 years
|
| Transnistria, Yugoslavia, Georgia, Ukraine. Not really
| peaceful.
|
| > Try doing that as an Israeli civilian in a bomb
| shelter, hearing Hezbollah/Hamas rockets explode in your
| city.
|
| As an Israeli civilian I say: if you hear rockets explode
| you chose a wrong city to live at.
|
| You have to understand that Gaza is kind of concentration
| camp and significant portion of Gaza population are arabs
| forcefully displaced from villages in Gaza-Ashdod-
| BeerSheba triangle. Do you expect them to just agree with
| "facts on the ground" and do nothing?
| NeverFade wrote:
| > _Transnistria, Yugoslavia, Georgia, Ukraine._
|
| All these are on the edge of Europe. Europe as a whole,
| including Western, Central, Northern, and even most of
| Eastern Europe, has been incredibly peaceful.
|
| > _As an Israeli civilian I say: if you hear rockets
| explode you chose a wrong city to live at._
|
| Ah, so it's perfectly acceptable to you when rockets hit
| some Israeli cities, where the poorer Israelis live. You
| are fine with that, because you can afford to live in
| Tel-Aviv, and you're always happy to virtue-signal at the
| expense of your fellow citizens who aren't as fortunate
| as yourself.
|
| Most nations have a strong sense of solidarity among
| their civilians. No poor Texan looked at 9/11 and said
| "those rich elites in NYC deserved it!". Neither will
| liberals in NYC accept it if some poor Texan border town
| is bombed by a Mexican militia.
|
| Your attitude is morally despicable and simply
| indefensible.
| helge9210 wrote:
| > Ah, so it's perfectly acceptable to you when rockets
| hit some Israeli cities, where the poorer Israelis live.
|
| If it's acceptable for them, who am I to judge?
|
| Election after election they vote for the party (Likud)
| that does consider Hamas a viable partner, transfers them
| hundreds of millions USD in cash and refuses to support
| any alternative government in Gaza.
| NeverFade wrote:
| Nations rise and fall based on a sense of common
| identity, solidarity, and shared fate.
|
| Your comment revealed the complete breakdown of these
| necessary elements.
|
| As someone who has enormous sympathy for the suffering of
| the Jewish people, and Israel as a response to that, I do
| hope that there are very few of you in Israel.
|
| Otherwise, Israel will disintegrate, and you will
| discover that when you demonstrate smug selfish
| indifference to rockets hitting your fellow citizens,
| those same rockets will eventually hit you too.
| helge9210 wrote:
| > for the suffering of the Jewish people, and Israel as a
| response to that
|
| You do understand, that Israel was established by people,
| who didn't suffer in Holocaust, but still demanded
| retribution from Arabs, who weren't responsible for
| Holocaust, right?
|
| A lot of Holocaust survivors were afraid to admit it
| until 90-ties for the reason they were considered sub-
| humans by fellow Israelis.
|
| > sense of common identity
|
| Please, be kind and explain to me, what common identity
| can be between me, secular son of Ashkenazi Jew, and
| minister Deri, Moroccan Arab of Jewish religion, who
| considers my father as good as dead since he married my
| non-jewish mother?
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Given the incredibly polarized state of American politics
| and society over the past decade, especially the last
| five years, I don't think that comparison is as true as
| it was twenty years ago. Probably not the most cogent
| comparison these days.
| NeverFade wrote:
| American society has polarized, it is true. Still, I
| believe only a tiny fringe minority will openly claim
| indifference to the WTC attacks because they haven't
| affected them personally. Much less show any support for
| the terrorists who committed these attacks.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| At this point it's not even indifference, it's more like
| animosity between different regions and different
| segments of society. When was the last time anyone
| stormed the Knesset?
| NeverFade wrote:
| Do you live in the US? I do.
|
| The US is home to 350,000,000 people. If you gather the
| craziest of these in one small place, you'll have enough
| force to storm a (poorly defended) Capitol.
|
| The US always had various fringe, a-social and anti-
| social groups. Still, Americans do largely share a sense
| of identity, especially against a common external threat.
| To judge by some of the comments here, perhaps to a
| greater extent than Israeli society currently does.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Netanyahu has been PM for over a decade, is that really
| accurate?
| bosswipe wrote:
| Iran is way more "threatened with destruction" by
| Israel/Saudi/US than the other way around.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| your last comment got flagged. If you want to see just how
| biased UN is look here https://unwatch.org/anti-israel-
| resolutions-hrc/
| NeverFade wrote:
| Very unfortunate when openly Antisemitic comments are
| tolerated, while replies pointing their bias are
| censored.
| fortran77 wrote:
| The "management" here has always been that way. That's
| why I keep an eye on them -- and stay far away from YC-
| backed companies.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| Tell me about it. Frankly its shocking. Not the anti-
| semites, but the indifference of everyone else. I'm just
| waiting for the flag to go up now.
| l33tbro wrote:
| > Thanks for demonstrating, once again, that biased attacks
| against Israel are heavily laced with Antisemitism.
|
| Antisemitism is such a tired strawman. Am I accused of
| sinophobia if I critique the CCP? Of course not. But
| critique of Israel is so often interpreted as
| 'antisemetic'.
|
| Please think more carefully about using 'antisemitism'.
| Israeli power does not represent all Jews - and calling
| 'antisemitism' to deflect critique of it is just
| disrespectful to the lived experience of historically
| oppressed Jewish people everywhere.
| zo1 wrote:
| While we're on that topic - how about not being able to
| criticize black culture without being accused of racism.
| NeverFade wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Nations_reso
| lut...
|
| > As of 2013, Israel had been condemned in 45 resolutions
| by the United Nations Human Rights Council. Since the
| creation of the Council in 2006, it has resolved almost
| more resolutions condemning Israel than on the rest of
| the world combined. The 45 resolutions comprised almost
| half (45.9%) of all country-specific resolutions passed
| by the Council
|
| So Israel, a tiny nation, received almost half of all
| condemnations by HRC. Far more than nations like China,
| Russia, and Syria, which are currently involved in human
| rights violations on a massive scale, including (in the
| case of Syria) genocide by using WMDs against civilian
| population.
|
| It's abundantly clear that Israel is singled out for
| "special treatment", and when you see Neo Nazis in
| Germany protesting in favor of BDS, it's also abundantly
| clear why:
|
| https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/.premium-why-neo-
| nazis-lo...
|
| The "moral argument" against Israel is laced with
| Antisemitic bias through and through, and it's not
| particularly hard to see when top comments even in this
| discussion are talking about the "many dirty tricks" used
| by Israeli Jews as a group.
| core-questions wrote:
| > So Israel, a tiny nation, received almost half of all
| condemnations by HRC.
|
| > It's abundantly clear that Israel is singled out for
| "special treatment"
|
| No, what is abundantly clear is that Israel is a state
| that engages in supremacist tactics, land grabs, war
| crimes, and is essentially occupying vast tracts of
| stolen Palestinian land. Everyone knows it, but because
| of people like yourself who fling the accusation of
| "antisemitism" against anyone who dares question your
| neocon war machine, nobody can say it. There would be far
| more condemnations against Israel from nations all over
| the planet if it didn't have such disastrous
| consequences, politically, to do so.
|
| Look at the tip of the iceberg for what happens when
| someone goes up against your feisty little nation: https:
| //www.scmp.com/news/asia/diplomacy/article/2145304/jap...
|
| They served the PM of Japan food out of a shoe. A
| tremendously offensive, targeted act of personal
| humiliation. Many such stories. Any attempt to push back
| on this ruins careers and lives.
|
| Not a surprise that many of the people most vehemently
| against free speech are your countrymen - you have the
| most to lose, because if people can freely discuss things
| from the Balfour Declaration through the Suez Crisis, the
| USS Liberty, the first and second Gulf Wars, etc. with
| the positions and actions of your country accurately
| accounted, you look pretty bad. Much better to clamp down
| on discussion and call any serious dialogue on the topic
| Hate Speech so as to avoid having to answer difficult
| questions.
|
| The defense always comes down to "if you don't agree with
| Israel's foreign policy, you're Anti-Semitic, and
| therefore a Neo-Nazi", and it's a weak and tired defense.
| It doesn't work when the people that are calling you out
| are diverse and have well-researched positions.
|
| Much like America, your nation has sins to atone for,
| except I don't see any honest dialogue on the topic
| emerging. Perhaps you personally could learn how to be a
| voice for change instead of a partisan troll.
| emmelaich wrote:
| > _They served the PM of Japan food out of a shoe. A
| tremendously offensive, targeted ....._
|
| Uhm, it was served to everyone at the table. Hardly
| targeted.
| marshmallow_12 wrote:
| Doesn't look like facts deserve a place on the discussion
| table Never.
| [deleted]
| avaldeso wrote:
| > Jews seek refuge from Antisemitism in their historic
| homeland, immediately get attacked by 7 nations. But this
| is all their fault, of course.
|
| Of course. That's what happens when you unilaterally found
| a country on someone's else historic homeland and start an
| apartheid state.
|
| > Right, all these Jews in Israel are using "many dirty
| tricks". Thanks for demonstrating, once again, that biased
| attacks against Israel are heavily laced with Antisemitism.
|
| Ah yes, the antisemitism card. Obviously.
| DC1350 wrote:
| He's not missing anything. He's just not including it because
| it's not relevant.
| helge9210 wrote:
| > Israel is a small nation of well educated people
|
| Out of 9 million population, only 200k work in Hi-Tech and only
| 28k of those work in startups.
|
| Only half of the high school students successfully pass
| matriculation examination.
|
| Very common mistake (even in Israel) to confuse Jews as a
| nation and Israel as Jewish state. Half of the jews chose not
| to live in Israel. The educated half.
| AzzieElbab wrote:
| Hmm being and remaining a Jewish state is the very
| cornerstone of Israel and Israeli Palestinian conflict.
| Otherwise they could have just agreed to the right to return
| and ended the whole thing
| NeverFade wrote:
| > _Out of 9 million population, only 200k work in Hi-Tech_
|
| Per available data, that is 321,000 employees, comprising
| 9.2% of the overall workforce. That is a very high portion,
| higher even than here in the US, where only 7.7% are tech
| workers.
|
| https://nocamels.com/2020/02/israeli-high-tech-industry-
| grow...
|
| > _Half of the jews chose not to live in Israel. The educated
| half._
|
| It's very clear that you have a blatant anti-Israeli agenda.
| Still important to point out that contrary to your biased,
| counterfactual claims, Israeli Jews are no less educated or
| talented than others, based on the actual facts of the
| Israeli technology industry and its economic achievements:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Start-up-Nation-Israels-Economic-
| Mira...
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